Talk:List of British MPs killed in office

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On 23 October 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from List of assassinated serving British MPs to List of murdered serving British MPs. The result of the discussion was moved.

Suggested improvement?

Would the table benefit from another column, for the respective political party of the MP listed? Most on the list were Tories/Conservatives but there were also a Liberal, an Ulster Unionist and (latest - Jo Cox) Labour member.Cloptonson (talk) 21:16, 18 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria

What are the criteria for "assassination" as opposed to e.g. ordinary murder or killed in military action? Is this only since the 1801 union or do English and British parliaments count? Why not include the Lords as well as MPs, e.g. Mountbatten? jnestorius^(talk) 17:09, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lord Frederick Cavendish

Wondering whether Lord Frederick Cavendish belongs in this list. His article says “ He was elected to parliament as a Liberal for the Northern Division of the West Riding of Yorkshire, 15 July 1865, and retained that office until his death.” but the article on the Northern West Riding of Yorkshire (UK Parliament constituency) says “Cavendish was appointed Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, causing a by-election. However on 6 May 1882, just hours after taking the oath for the position, Cavendish was assassinated in Dublin in the Phoenix Park Murders.”, implying that he wasn’t an MP at the time of his murder. — Arwel Parry (talk) 21:06, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Killing of David Amess

This is still under investigation. The suspect has not been formally charged.Martinevans123 (talk) 22:28, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are entirely correct. The edit summary "It is not "under investigation"; Whitehall officials have confirmed the name and the motive, as reported in numerous RS, even if Wikipedia is not including this information." is incorrect. The BBC report of two days ago [1] says "The Metropolitan Police said there was a potential link to Islamist extremism. A 25-year-old British man was arrested at the scene on suspicion of murder." (emphasis added). There is no confession or conviction, so it is incorrect to name an "Assassin" or "Assassin's cause" right now. AFreshStart is free to discuss here if they believe it is not "under investigation". Unknown Temptation (talk) 12:56, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Should this item even be included here yet? "Assassination" is rarely used in British English to describe killings in the UK. The original article does not describe it in this way, even in a Category. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:28, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That possibly describes most of the entries here. Perhaps then a move to List of murdered serving British MPs? Bondegezou (talk) 14:41, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect that Spencer Perceval might be an exception. It's going to depend on how the "majority of reliable sources" describe the events? Of course there's no requirement to have only British English sources used in a British topic, is there? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:45, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, no requirement. Sources can be in any language and from anywhere. Bondegezou (talk) 14:47, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If some events are described as assassinations and some as murders, then we can still call the article "murdered..." because assassination is a subset of murder. Bondegezou (talk) 14:49, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's true. Only two of the nine main articles listed here is called "Assassination of.." Martinevans123 (talk) 15:09, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

David Amess and Jo Cox

Neither of these belong on the list, as neither are typically described by reliable sources as "assassinations".

It is true that they are occasionally described as an "assassination", but these descriptions are few and far between, and typically constrained to unreliable sources; I don't believe it is due weight to include it here. It is also relevant to note that the sources provided to describe these murders as assassinations do not themselves use the word.

BilledMammal (talk) 03:51, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As per the discussion in the previous section, I would suggest re-naming the article rather than removing Amess and Cox. Bondegezou (talk) 09:25, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:36, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No objection to renaming; I'll start a RM. BilledMammal (talk) 02:13, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

They were both murdered because they were MPs. That's assassination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.250.208 (talk) 14:54, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's not for us to decide; we have to follow what reliable sources say. BilledMammal (talk) 02:13, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that the word is generally applied to deliberate killings of politicians that were politically motivated and without effort to conceal from the public. I have commented under the next talkpoint that a change in heading word would be a solution that could permit Cox and Amess to remain listed on this page.Cloptonson (talk) 06:59, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 23 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to "List of British MPs killed in office". (non-admin closure) VR _talk 03:12, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was requested to give a more detailed explanation (my apologies for closing without it). "List of British MPs killed in office" seems to be supported by 7 (zzuuzz, TompaDompa, BilledMammal, Martinevans123, 162 etc., Love of Corey, Bondegezou) and opposed by 1 (Randy Kryn). The support votes mainly cited WP:CONSISTENCY with the fact that "killed" is used List of United States Congress members killed or wounded in office. The rationale given by TompaDompa implicitly refers to a convention on wikipedia that is explained on WP:DEATHS. Under that convention "Murder" would be used for homicide with conviction, "Killing" would be used for homicide without conviction, and "death" would be used for accidental deaths. The previous title "assassination" was a reasonable title, but most felt that it didn't have the advantage of consistency that "killed" has.VR _talk 14:46, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

List of assassinated serving British MPs → List of murdered serving British MPs – Recently, Jo Cox and Sir David Amess were added to the list; reliable sources typically term these "murders", not "assassinations". It was proposed that instead of removing these names from the list, the article be rescoped to cover murders. As there are few MP's who have been murdered or assassinated while in office, this seems appropriate. BilledMammal (talk) 02:21, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom and List of United States Congress members killed or wounded in office. After all, it's not List of United States Congress members assassinated in office. Love of Corey (talk) 03:02, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Alternative. I'm not going to object, as it's still an improvement. However it doesn't tackle either the issue we're currently facing, which is the killing of David Amess, or the same problem we had in 2016. These events would still have to be awkwardly excluded for at least a time. For this reason I think I may prefer a title such as List of British MPs killed in office, which is an unfortunately common way of phrasing the same thing, and seen in use in the Congress example above. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 03:41, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Comment "Murder" has the drawback that we cannot use it absent or prior to a conviction, for legal reasons. We tend to use "killing of" and "was killed" rather than "murder of" and "was murdered" because of this. That's something we should keep in mind here. TompaDompa (talk) 03:44, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
List of British MPs killed in office seems preferable to my first proposal, per the issues you and zzuuzz have raised. BilledMammal (talk) 09:03, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Seems more accommodating. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:49, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, a murder of a sitting national politician is an assassination. From the Assassination lead: "Assassination is the murder of prominent or important person,[1] such as heads of state, heads of government, politicians, royalty, celebrities, or CEOs." Randy Kryn (talk) 11:50, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As as I mentioned above, only two of the main articles listed here is called "Assassination of.."? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:16, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Move to List of British MPs killed in office, per above. 162 etc. (talk) 15:39, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't fit the topic. Could be hit by lightning, accidently shot by Alec Baldwin, a cow fell on them, or thousands of other non-assassination causes. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:48, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Why not. If that cow ever falls on Boris, so be it. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:54, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because this title should not be moo-ved. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:18, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Best to get in first. {cringe) Martinevans123 (talk) 18:49, 23 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We do have precedence for that kind of title: List of United States Congress members killed or wounded in office. It's not List of United States Congress members assassinated in office or anything like that. Love of Corey (talk) 02:10, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I'm slightly switching my vote to support List of British MPs killed in office, per everyone else's comments above. Love of Corey (talk) 02:10, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There doesn't seem to be a perfect wording here. We can't say "murdered" until a trial. "Killed" for the US article is interpreted to mean "killed by someone", but the wording fails to exclude killed by lightning or rogue cow. Does the word "homicide" help? I think List of British MPs killed in office, matching the US article, is the best option, and we make sure the lead section clarifies what is covered. Bondegezou (talk) 18:13, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely. Without a doubt. Love of Corey (talk) 05:03, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

If an MP was sat on by a cow and tragically lost their life by bovine intervention, they would now be eligible for this list of assassinated MP's. Or if they were killed in any way outside of natural causes (i.e. piano falling out of a third floor window upon a walking MP), page worthy. There must be some more MP's made eligible for the article per the name change, anyone know of any to add? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:40, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Randy Kryn: I'm really sorry for closing without a detailed explanation. I have given one now. Is that adequate?VR _talk 14:48, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the detail. Wasn't needed though, as I had removed my request. Related, I tried to find if any MPs had sailed on the Titanic, but none (as far as I could tell) ventured forth to meet either their maker or Minnie Driver. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:34, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would say in the words of one of the previous commenters - rescope the article under revising the article heading and changing word Assassinated to Murdered.Cloptonson (talk) 06:57, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

David Amess' murder

link to my edit

I concur with the intent of the hidden rule, which is meant to avoid blaming somebody who could still be found innocent in Court, and providing a motive that could still differ slightly from what has been detailed so far. However, we also have to take into account the fact that nobody else was named for the murder, let alone charged, and that the amount of evidence made public pointing to the same motive (also mentioned in the lede of David Amess) is worth a mention -- provided, of course, that we take the necessary precautions in naming the suspect and motive. This is why I put them in brackets. If this doesn't abide by WP:SUSPECT then we should remove the material on David Amess' page accordingly.

Kahlores (talk) 09:04, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it is appropriate to introduce the suspects name, as long as we make it clear that they are a suspect, and not convicted; I don't believe this violates any policies or guidelines. However, we should not include the motive, as including the motive causes issues with WP:NPOV as we cannot include the necessary context. BilledMammal (talk) 09:49, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]