Talk:Maysie Chalmers

Name in later life?

The "Women Who Made Me" source suggests that in her post-1950 widowhood "she was known as an engaging public speaker on behalf of the South West Electricity Board, and conducted training for them in marketing and publicity". It would be interesting to know what name she used at this stage - the "Mrs Pender Chalmers" by which she had previously been known, or Edith/Maysie Forrest, her second married name, or what? PamD 20:12, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

One can't imagine (easily) that she continued to use her first married name after her second marriage in 1937, but the article hasn't much to say about this period. Johnbod (talk) 04:30, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Just as well we have redirects. There seems to be an increasing case for titling the article Maysie Forrest. That would allow us to get rid of Mrs and begin to look more carefully at her achievements under that name.--Ipigott (talk) 06:22, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Worth noting here that, in 1937 in the Electrical Review, she was credited as Maysie Chalmers - here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:58, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Interesting case: actress, engineer, living quietly, with a birth name, stage name, first married name, second married name ... death record lists her as Edith May Forrest, grave as Maysie Forrest. As well as the question of the article title, there's the question of how to refer to her in the text of the article. Chalmers? She's mostly "she" at present, diplomatically. PamD 07:08, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

It needs to be borne in mind that the organisations with which she was involved professionally, as an engineer or even as an air pilot, would have been heavily male-dominated, and doubtless used conventional and conservative language in reporting her activities - at least until the 1930s, when the form "Maysie Chalmers" first appears. That does not mean that Wikipedia necessarily needs to follow their example. For instance, we do not title an article "Mrs Gaskell", which was the form used in that author's publications - we use the correct forename. I'm not sure there is enough public information to judge whether the term "Maysie Forrest" should be used rather than "Maysie Chalmers" as this article title (and perhaps it doesn't much matter), but we should avoid the "Mrs Pender Chalmers" title. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:19, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Maysie Forrest first, best known as Mrs Pender Chalmers, and have rewritten as such. My main concern is with burying the lede with all the variations of her name, which is never a good look, especially when search engines only pick up the first sentence or two of a bio. (Think it's unfortunate when women and multicultural individuals with multiple names have name-heavy ledes that are TLDC (too long, don't care) and their achievements get buried or lost...not unlike really terrible ledes in corporate press releases where you stop reading after five or six words.) (There is also the other (American?) Wikipedia convention which might say Edith May "Maysie" Burlingham Chalmers Forrest which is problematic in other ways, especially in this case.) Anyway, is it OK to move this page now to Maysie Forrest r does an admin have to do it, since the web of redirects is so complicated? Cielquiparle (talk) 09:43, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

As an alternative, how about:

Maysie Forrest (née Edith May "Maysie" Burlingham; 8 December 1894 – 29 July 1982), also known as Mrs Pender Chalmers or Maysie Chalmers, was a British electrical engineer and designer who was a leading figure in the Electrical Association for Women in the 1920s and 1930s. She also competed in flying races, and had an early career as an actress.

Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:19, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

There's nothing "complicated" about the redirects, just one per name - and I gave them all an "Rcat" template to make it less likely that they would be edited after creation, because an article can be moved to a name which is currently a redirect to it, as long as the redirect hasn't been edited since creation.

I think Maysie Chalmers is probably the better title: it's used in one source referring to her engineering career, which is her main claim to notability, but seems to have largely stopped after she was divorced from Mr Pender Chalmers. As Maysie Forrest she seems to have led a quiet life as married woman and then widow, and was buried by that name. PamD 10:25, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

OK, so...:

Maysie Chalmers (née Edith May "Maysie" Burlingham; 8 December 1894 – 29 July 1982), also known as Mrs Pender Chalmers and later as Maysie Forrest, was a British electrical engineer and designer who was a leading figure in the Electrical Association for Women in the 1920s and 1930s. She also competed in flying races, and had an early career as an actress.

Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:34, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

The Maysie Chalmers = British electrical engineer equation makes sense. But with four long names in the lede, I think most people would stop reading after the first line and not even make it to the end of the first sentence. Which is a shame given that the rest of the bio is so interesting. Cielquiparle (talk) 10:41, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

At the time of her notable activity in 1920s and 1930s (flying, electrical work and involvement in the Electrical Association for Women EAW) she was always referred to as Mrs Pender Chalmers. This was correct social British protocol at the time (see also Mrs Victor Bruce ) particularly for someone of her social class. She would only have been called Maysie by very close friends and family and it would have been bad manners to use her first name without being given permission to do so. She is referred to Mrs Pender Chalmers in all the EAW magazines and records in IET archives and in process of digitisation but not yet accessible. MumphingSquirrel (talk) 11:35, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

But as "Maysie Chalmers" here, in 1937. I'm not convinced that article titles should be determined on the basis of "correct social British protocol at the time... particularly for someone of her social class." Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:43, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

No, they should be determined on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME, but sometimes that comes to the same thing. Johnbod (talk) 14:26, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Definitive "no" to calling the page Maysie Forrest. Turns out the most prominent Maysie Forrest is a Scottish soprano... (Resisting urge to create stub now...) Cielquiparle (talk) 04:45, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

I concur that calling her Mrs. X because it was customary is pretty silly. Just another way to hide her identity. She seems to have published as Maysie Chalmers. I note that besides Ghmyrtle's find of the The Electrical Review (full version accessible here) from 1937, as early as 1934, she was using that name when she published in Light and Colour, p 54. There is also a reference here showing that the Greenock Telegraph used Maysie Chalmers in the post regarding her daughter Nellie's death which appeared on 24 March 1915. SusunW (talk) 16:49, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

The Greenock source refers to a completely different couple whose 2 yrs 7 months old daughter died several months before the Pender Chalmers date of marriage in June 1915, and at the opposite end of UK to where they lived MumphingSquirrel (talk) 20:09, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

I've been reminded of a not too dissimilar naming issue, at Sheila Borrett. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:17, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

• I'm okay with a rename to Maysie Chalmers. That seems like the best way to go about it. Silverseren^C 21:40, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

  I can see that this article has now been renamed to Maysie Chalmers and am happy with that. I'm new to this so wasn't aware that 'Mrs' should not have been in the article name - my apologies. She was an interesting woman with 2 careers and 2 marriages, which has posed some challenges! CuriosityScribe (talk) 17:39, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Child who died?

Have deleted mention of child (of Pender and Maysie) who died at birth for now, as the footnote was pointing to their wedding announcement in the Chester Chronicle, which contains no such reference. Have also checked Familysearch (which the original author appears to have used) and there is no reference to such a child. Cielquiparle (talk) 07:59, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

@Cielquiparle: the infant death and a subsequent miscarriage and no further births is mentioned in the "The women who made me: Maysie's story" source ("There was a baby who apparently lived for a day, and a subsequent miscarriage, but no further children."). I don't know whether we consider that a reliable source... but we are citing it several times. PamD 18:31, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks @PamD. (So frustrating to read obviously well researched blogs with no inline citations, or even a reference list! Not convinced this particular fact deserves a mention even if we did have a reliable source...but thinking about it.) But will definitely chase down some of the other facts she mentions (e.g. re: South West Electricity Board). I'm convinced there is more out there about Mrs Frank Forrest but haven't quite worked out where to look. Cielquiparle (talk) 19:29, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Actually...what is eye-opening about the blog post is the (rumoured) reason for their divorce, which does not paint Bill Pender Chalmers in a favourable light at all. So no, she definitely did NOT want to continue being known as "Mrs Pender Chalmers". Cielquiparle (talk) 19:52, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

The other Mrs Pender Chalmers

After their divorce, Pender Chalmers also remarried. His second wife, most likely née Beatrice Emory (per Familysearch), is referred to in later newspaper accounts as "Mrs Pender Chalmers" as well. However, the second Mrs Pender Chalmers is not notable on her own, except as the mother of Ian Pender Chalmers, OBE (1939–2014). Cielquiparle (talk) 08:07, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Yet another reason we should change the name of the article to Maysie Chalmers, IMO. And thank you for your work Cielquiparle. SusunW (talk) 13:40, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Birth date?

@MumphingSquirrel: What was your source for her date of birth? (I agree with March rather than Dec, but can't see it in any of the sources).

@CuriosityScribe: I can't access the Newspaper sources, but this freely-available copy of the register of births shows an Edith May Burlingham registered in April-June 1894 in Chester (a stone's throw from Hawarden, and likely the registration district). Is your December date (you included it in infobox from the start) perhaps her baptism? PamD 18:28, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

The Quaker Registers record as follows:

"... On the thirteenth day of the third month, one thousand eight hundred and ninety four, was born at Hawarden, in the parish of Hawarden in the county of Flint, unto Daniel Catlin Burlingham of that place, Doctor of Medicine, and Edith, his wife, a daughter who was named Edith May, and whose birth was duly registered at the Public Registry Office for the district of Chester...." Source: Liverpool Record Office, Non-Conformist Registers; Reference Number: 289 QUA/BN/2

Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:17, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

PS: A little more digging reveals that, in the 1939 Register, there was a different Edith Burlingham, born 18 December 1894, who was the wife of Harold Burlingham, a railway station foreman, living in Wembley, Middlesex. Hence, some confusion I think. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:35, 16 April 2022 (UTC)