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Balance

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Producing a balanced article

The main purpose of an article should be to inform, and where there is dispute to be balanced.

The article clear states that some consider that Pinghua should be considered a separate dialect from Cantonese, whereas others do not. The way for the article to be developed is to add more facts - not by restating either of the above opinions in different ways.

Johnkn63 (talk) 20:45, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase "some mainland Chinese linguists tried to separate it from Cantonese" has been changed to "some mainland Chinese linguists separate it from Cantonese" because the latter expression states in an unbiased way the current position, namely that there exist different opinions about the status of Pinghua. In official mainland Chinese textbooks Pinghua is cited as being a separate dialect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnkn63 (talk • contribs) 17:27, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, the name of this lect in English is just Pinghua. There's a dab link at the top of the page. kwami (talk) 20:56, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Another possibility is Pinghua Cantonese, if we can agree that it's Cantonese. kwami (talk) 21:02, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I know you are an administrator of wikipedia. You locked this article from moving to any other proper name since your last edition. I find the original title is "Pinghua". You changed the title to "Pinghua Chinese". You also tried to change Cantonese, Hakka to "Yue Chinese" and "Hakka Chinese" (opposed by most Cantonese speakers). You tried to rename all Chinese language associated article, with your preferred names (xx Chinese). I doubt this behavior is a kind of admin power abuse. The Chinese name of this dialect is "广西平话". The term "Pinghua" or "Pinghua Chinese" can also be the name of a dialect of Min Dong. Both of them are of ambiguity. The Proper name (also clear name) should be "Guangxi Pinghua" rather than "Pinghua Chinese" or "Pinghua Cantonese". --Anativecantonesespeaker (talk) 04:23, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, I did not "lock this article from moving". If I had, you would not have been able to move it. The article is still completely unprotected. Secondly, the naming of Chinese lects was a consensus after a long discussion, hardly admin abuse. Thirdly, we generally go by English names on English Wikipedia, and the English name of this lect is "Pinghua". Our sources all use simply "Pingua"; all my refs do the same. Because there is a (very) slight chance that someone might be looking for the Mindong dialect without knowing about this Pinghua (a dialect so obscure that we don't even include it in our list of Chinese dialects), there is a dab line at the top of the page, as there should be.
I notice that one of your other choices, on a couple articles, was to rename this lect "Ping". Whereas "Guangxi Pinghua" is comprehensible, if not normal, English, "Ping" is completely unrecognizable. I have therefore reverted these edits.
I googled "Guangxi Pinghua" and had exactly one hit: your addition to the Chinese language article! "Pinghua", on the other hand, gets 25 thousand hits. In Google Books, "Guangxi Pinghua" has zero hits. That is, you just made up this phrase. Insisting it is correct is therefore based on nothing but your opinion. If you can demonstrate to everyone's satisfaction that Pinghua is a dialect of Yue, then we can probably rename it accordingly without much dissention, which would obviate the issue. Maybe you can even convince everyone to adopt "Guangxi Pinhua"; there's nothing inherently wrong with ad hoc names. But there should be some discussion. kwami (talk) 09:50, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"广西平话" is in use, just not in English. I don't disagree with the conclusion of this discussion, but @Anativecantonesespeaker did not make it up. Barefoot Banana (talk) 11:17, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support for the "traditional" view

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It would be good to state clearly, but briefly" who supports which view, however, presently the article contains, "According to Wu Wei in 2001, "Pinghua is only a branch of Cantonese (Yue) rather than an independent dialect group."" It has no citation, and who "Wu Wei' and whom he represents is is not clear. Johnkn63 (talk) 21:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

From WP:RM

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was moved to Pinghua Aervanath (talk) 14:51, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Official name is Pinghua or Guangxi Pinghua, not Pinghua Chinese. --Anativecantonesespeaker (talk) 10:13, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved this request to the incomplete proposals section. Please:

  • Use the correct templates if you wish to complete the request.
  • Base the justification on WP:NC and any relevant subpages. See also WP:official names for what's wrong with the proposal as it stands.

It would also be good to have consensus here first of course, but that's not always possible or necessary. Andrewa (talk) 18:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • The name given in books most often is simply Pinghua 平话, adding Chinese after, or Guangxi before are used to clarify. Speakers of Pinghua themselves may also use terms like "客话" [Kehua guest language] and "蔗园话" [sugarcane plantation language] to describe their language.Johnkn63 (talk) 11:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article states that Pinghua "classified by some as a subdivision of Cantonese, and as a Chinese dialect by others." If that is true, wouldn't it be better to drop the "Chinese" from the title? — AjaxSmack 03:17, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's not true, but POV from one particular editor. Pinghua is classified as a separate language by others. Primary branches of Chinese are named "X Chinese" unless there is an unambiguous common name. "Pinghua" might still be a better title, but not because of that. kwami (talk) 13:56, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I know it's not possible to prove a negative but any evidence that this is the viewpoint of a single editor? The current Chinese Wikipedia article also calls Pinghua a dialect of Cantonese. The cited source in this article says that the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences changed its classification of the language in 1980.
If the classification is ambiguous, what's wrong with Pinghua? The article was stable at Pinghua (linguistics) for years until you moved it without discussion. The disambiguator is not needed so that leaves Pinghua. — AjaxSmack 01:09, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Without context 'Pinghua' can have many different meanings. ISO 639, aka Ethnolouge (were becomes "Chinese, X") uses 'X Chinese' as the naming convention for most, if not all of the CASS (Chinese Academy of Social Sciences) list except Pinghua - which presently ethologue does not mention by name either as a separate entry, or under "Chinese, Yue". Wikipedia does not seem to have a convention as such. Hakka for examples is Hakka (language), and a title like Pinghua (language) would match this, however at present there are no other Pnghua wikipedia articles, the disambiguation page simply redirects a search for 'Pinghua' to 'Pinghua Chinese'. Pinghua(language) is certinly a clearer than Pinghua(linguistics), though at present since there are no other Pinghua pages, one could argue not even this degree of disambiguation is required at present. Certainly from a wikipedia point of view a neutral title such as just "Pinghua", or "Pinghua (language)" would be a less emotive solution. However it should be noted that since the adding of the citation concerning CASS designation of Pinghua, objections have decreased dramatically. Johnkn63 (talk) 18:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To return to the question of an official name, the official name is simply "Pinghua" which means the "Ping" language. Johnkn63 (talk) 18:54, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(sigh) That may or may not be true, but why return to the question of an official name? Have you read the policy on this? Andrewa (talk) 20:36, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
John, the Wikipedia convention is "X Chinese". Hakka is different because one editor got very upset about it and moved the page. The problem with that is that historically anything with "language" in it has upset those who feel that the language is Chinese, but this time no-one's objected. If "Pinghua" is sufficiently unambiguous in English, which it might be, then that is fine as the name for the article. The only problem is that, unlike Cantonese, few English speakers have heard of Pinghua. And the official name is of little relevance, since it's written in hanja, which are not well represented in transliteration. That said, I have no problem with "Pinghua", as that's how I word it myself. kwami (talk) 22:16, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Andrew and Kwami, I have read the policy, to me "Pinghua Chinese" is my conclusion. The points to note are there is an official name in in Chinese 平话, which means "Ping language", the name designated by CASS since 1987. The only published references to 平话 I can find in English, are by Chinese authors, in which they transliterate this as "Pinghua". However just "Ping" would be the conventional translation of "平话" as for example in the dropdown menu's of http://language.glossika.com/category/sino-tibetan/ping-%e5%b9%b3%e8%a9%b1/ - 闽语 in English is Min, wikipedia Min Chinese. etc. Johnkn63 (talk) 23:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Margaret Mian Yan in her Introduction to Chinese Dialectology uses Pinghua (pp. 232-238), NOT Pinghua Chinese. Same goes for Norman's Chinese, Ramsey's Languages of China and for the Language Atlas China (ed. by S. Wurm et al). They all use Pinghua. I think Wikipedia should not set norms, but should just follow what is done by scholars who know what they are talking about. A wikipedia convention (whatever that is) can't take the place or position of scientific usage, Guss2 (talk) 09:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well I stand corrected on the name in English, obviously is in wider circukation than I thought. However the wikipedia policy of "X Chinese" does not mean "X Chinese" is the English name, but rather IMHO gives a context, as is shown by X Chinese being the title of a page but X being how the lect is refered to within the article iteslf. Where a book already has Chinese in the title the context is already given and does not need to be repeated within the book.Johnkn63 (talk) 10:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Pinghua" is fairly common in English. The only question is whether it's common enough to be recognizable without the "Chinese". That's a judgement call, not an absolute. I'm fine with either format. kwami (talk) 10:39, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Adding and Improving Content

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I have just started a Phonology section, and will be adding specific information about Pinghua Chinese, or is that Ping Chinese, over the coming weeks and months. I would greatly appreciate if those with more knowledge about wikipedia and linguistics could tidy up my somewhat rough and ready contributions. Johnkn63 (talk) 02:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Moved from the article

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the following sections have been moved from the main article because there presence in there current form does not seem to develope the main topic of the article, if people wish to restore them it is politlely suggested they be discussed here first or on my talk page.:-

removed as off focus

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"while Standard Cantonese has only three (the Cantoneese Ngaulau lect also has four entering tones)" this gives a comparison to Cantonese that seems pretty irrelevant at the end of the day.

removed as lacking context

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" and Wu Wei (2001) maintains that "Pinghua is only a branch of Cantonese (Yue) rather than an independent dialect group." [citation needed]" this lacks context, to make a meaningful contribution to the article the reader needs to be informed who Wu Wei is and in what contect he made this statement. A google search for "Wu Wei" Pinghua 2001, shows no other mathches apart from versions of this article. Johnkn63 (talk) 09:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 17 December 2015

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus (non-admin closure). sst✈ 08:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Pinghua → Guangxi Pinghua – Not primary topic for "pinghua". First 30 results on Google Books: 7 on this Guangxi language/dialect; 19 on pinghua (storytelling) and 4 on neither (personal names). Timmyshin (talk) 23:44, 17 December 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 06:05, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Either move pinghua (storytelling) to pinghua as its primary topic, or create a dab page. Timmyshin (talk) 15:06, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is certainly not the primary topic – about one third of the English-language uses refer to the dialect group, and there are many incoming links based on that meaning. I'm also unsure about the proposed target: "Guangxi Pinghua" is common in Chinese, but never seems to be used in English. "Pinghua Chinese" is also rarely seen, but would at least be consistent with the other names of Chinese dialect groups on WP. Kanguole 15:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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Family nodes in infobox

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Regarding this revert:

  1. As language families, "Sinitic" and "Chinese" are synonyms, so it is redundant to have both.
  2. Where is Ping–Yue a widely accepted subgroup? Kanguole 11:41, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  1. As to "Sinitic languages" vs "Chinese language" from a wikipedia prospective "Sinitic languages" is just a redirect to Varieties of Chinese, whereas Chinese language has it's own page, therefore Chinese language is better, but since the page Chinese language has "Sinitic languages" as the family above it, then Chinese language page would be where to start, if people can accept that change then Pinghua should follow suit.
  2. Phrases like "平话是与粤语方言并立的独立的大方言" on page 15 of "广西平话研究(ISBN 978-7-5161-8896-5)". Johnkn63 (talk) 09:31, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In the literature, "Sinitic languages" is synonymous with "Chinese dialects", the choice between the two being one of emphasis. The Chinese language article is a special case, created to balance the views of Chinese as a language or a family. But in the infobox here, the |famN= fields should hold hold the family, which is the Sinitic branch of Sino-Tibetan. Having both Sinitic and Chinese is saying the same thing twice.
That phrase seems to be asserting that Pinghua is a dialect group at the same level as Yue, rather than being included in Yue as previously. There doesn't seem to be any support for a Ping-Yue group. Kanguole 14:47, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the Ping-Yue "family" I have removed it for now. If one day we have a Ping-Yue wiki page could consider put it back in, but don't think that will happen. Maybe one day have a Chinese/Sinitic -> Southern Ping-Yue -> Southern Pinghua as part of a Southern Pinghua page info box. Johnkn63 (talk) 15:56, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As far as Sinitic Languages which is just a redirect to Varieties of Chinese vs Chinese Language the question is some respects is whether the redirect itself is the best. The page Sinitic Languages was basically a stub made in 2014, and recently changed to a redirect to Varieties of Chinese by yourself. If your arguement is correct that Sinitic Languages equals Chinese Language then Sinitic Languages should redirect to Chinese Language. Certainly for native speakers of English Chinese Language is much clearer than Sinitic Languages. Also in number of respects the arictle Chinese Language is better developed than Sinitic Languages. In short Sinitic Languages should redirect to Chinese Language. Johnkn63 (talk) 23:34, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, "Sinitic languages" is used interchangably with "Chinese dialects", i.e. varieties of Chinese, not "Chinese language", which has a quite different connotation. The most obvious difference is that it is singular rather than plural. Kanguole 00:21, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is not correct. "Chinese language" is the commonly used term for the meta-language "Chinese" in other words "Chinese languages". Varieties of Chinese is in fact, and logically, a subsection of the Chinese Language article, this shows clearly that Sinitic Languages should not redirect to the limited scoped Varieties of Chinese, but the wider scoped Chinese Language. The relative low usage of the term Sinitic Languages is why it doesn't have it's own page, any problems with the Chinese Language, including whether or not it should be moved to "Chinese languages" should be address there not by trying to redirect people away to the Varieties of Chinese article. Redirecting Sinitic Languages to Varieties of Chinese is not representative approach. Language family Sino-Tibetan -> Chinese -> xxx makes sense for Pinghua, Wu Chinese, Gan Chinese, etc. The aim of wikipedia is to inform people not confuse. As long as "Sinitic Languages" redirects to Varieties of Chinese then it rather than "Chinese should be removed. Johnkn63 (talk) 01:40, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What is incorrect? That "Sinitic languages" is synonymous with "Chinese dialects", or more precisely "Chinese dialect groups"? Or that the article about these dialect groups (Pinghua, Wu, Gan, etc) is Varieties of Chinese? Or that "Chinese language" is singular?
The current structure, with {{infobox language}} at Chinese language and {{infobox language family}} at Varieties of Chinese, is a compromise, but it has been in place for 10 years. Kanguole 13:19, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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