Talk:Rasgulla

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search


Regarding alleged Content forks[edit]

Hello SpacemanSpiff

(1) You should not have deleted the article Rosogolla immediately, and before giving an opportunity to the editor of the article concerned to be heard. This is not a reasonable act; an administrator should do without consensus. Indeed your act is unreasonable.

(2) Reasonably, The question of content forks applies when the main article itself is perfect in nature, however, in the instant case the main article Rasgulla is not perfect in nomenclature, for the reasons stated below.

(3) Rasgulla is a colloquial name, mostly called by the other language speaking Indians. The formal name of the desert is Rosogolla as per the dictionary and other reliable books - those I have referred in the deleted article Rosogolla in question. Unfortunately, the main article should have named Rosogolla but it is representing an imperfect, colloquial name, for the obvious reasons.

(4) However, to avoid impugned disputes with some biased editors or administrators of the article Rasgulla, the Article Rosogolla was created to represent its formal name. The article should have stayed in Wikipedia but you have arbitrarily deleted it, that too without a prior discussion or providing a notice in support of your probable deletion.

(5) Therefore, considering the above stated fact and circumstances, please address the above stated issues (1) to (4) so that the article Rasgulla could be enriched in quality and perfection.

A reasonable and consensual reply from you shall enable me to decide further course of action regarding this.

In addition to that:-
(i) There is no question of creating duplicate forks or I have no intention to create one knowingly.
(ii) The essence of my above statements is that since the other article Rasgulla is a colloquial name, against the formal named Rosogolla (deleted/protected), hence the content of the formal name Rosogolla be merged with the colloquial named Rasgulla, thereafter, Rasgulla be renamed with its formal name Rosogolla. But since the article Rosogolla protected, I cannot retrieve its content and the above proposal requires your cooperation.
(iii) There is another option, renaming the Article Rasgulla by its formal name Rosogolla, then update the page content with the content of Rosogolla so protected. However, though I can rename the page in question but history of the page needs to be merged with the proposed page to be renamed but doing this is not within my reach. So I need your cooperation in the desired manner.
(iv) Following, I am providing verifiable references in support of my statement, why the name Rosogolla is formal, establishing the Rasgulla as colloquial or not a formal name. A fact is a fact and none can deny it, reasonably formal name shall survive.
  • rasa+gōllā = রস+গোল্লা (Rosogolla) [1] - as per Bengali Language dictionaries only, (the Bengalies tend to pronounce the dental sa as palatal sha and the sound a as o). However, no other languages Indian dictionaries mention the word gōllā meaning a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা).
  • রস [rasa] = a liquid solution of anything hard (চিনির রস); a syrup; juice; URL to see http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/রস
  • গোল্লা [gōllā] = a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা); URL to see http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/গোল্লা
Written in English Language the sweet spelt as Rosogolla, [2] [3] [4] (spelt রসগোল্লা written in Bengali Language).

References

  1. ^ Kunal Chakrabarti, Shubhra Chakrabarti (22 August 2013). Historical Dictionary of the Bengalis. Scarecrow Press, Inc. pp. xiv–. ISBN 978-0-8108-8024-5.
  2. ^ Darra Goldstein, Sidney Mintz, Michael Krondl, Eric Rath, Laura Mason, Geraldine Quinzio, Ursula Heinzelmann (1 April 2015). The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets. Oxford University Press. pp. 359–. ISBN 978-0-19-931339-6.
  3. ^ "History of rossogolla now just a click away". The Times of India. 15 March 2013.
  4. ^ Kunal Chakrabarti, Shubhra Chakrabarti (22 August 2013). Historical Dictionary of the Bengalis. Scarecrow Press, Inc. pp. 188–. ISBN 978-0-8108-8024-5.

Thanks Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 17:51, 13 August 2015 (UTC)


First of all, if you want to change an article's name, you should request a move instead of creating a new article on the same topic.
Secondly, there is no such thing as a "formal" name of the dish. The name "Rasgulla" is actually present in the Oxford dictionary, which has no entry for "rosogolla". The dictionary reference cited by you in your fork (Collins) is a user submission.
Different works use different spellings of the dish. Even some of the ones cited by you in your forked article used spellings other than "rosogolla". In Bengali sources and works based on them, the English approximations of the Bengali pronunciation ("rosogolla", "rossogolla" or "roshogolla") are common. In Odiya sources, "Rasagola" or "Rasagolla" are found. Other sources may use one of these spellings or "Rasgulla".
Going by Google Scholar, Books and News results, "Rasgulla" is by far, the most common of the spellings.
Moving the article to "rosogolla" will result in an unnecessary Bengali-vs-Odiya troll fest, considering the fact that people of Odisha had celebrated "Rasagola Dibasa" very recently. utcursch | talk 18:54, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Snthakur, when spellings differ there is no need for a separate article. Rosogolla redriects to this anyway and you can request a move to the other name if you like (I doubt if that will work). --regentspark (comment) 20:47, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Page Move Request[edit]

To whom it may concern:

Sir/s

As per the following recommendation, available at the page URL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Rosogolla_discussion I am requesting a page move of the article Rasgulla to the article page Rosogolla, the reasons for this already discussed in the above said page URL.

"

  •  Volunteer note: Snthakur, the solution to the issue is as follows;
  1. Request a page move on the talk page of the concerned article. We cannot have two articles on the same subject.
  2. It may succeed or it may not. In any case, for your content to be restored, you can ask the deleting admin SpacemanSpiff. (P.S. The content won't be restored to the namespace rather, to your sandbox or pages like this Talk:Rasgulla/forked content).
  3. After which you can manually add the contents to the article. If someone opposes, discuss with them in the article's talk page.
Hope that helps. Regards--JAaron95 Talk 12:37, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

"

Thanks

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 13:11, 14 August 2015 (UTC)


I fully support this. [S. Basu , Kolkata, India] 171.79.91.125 (talk) 15:01, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 14 August 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 10:14, 22 August 2015 (UTC)



RasgullaRosogollaEditor Snthakur has requested that this page be moved to Rosogolla stating, 'Rosogolla is the formal, original, familiar and most common name of this dessert.' Regards--JAaron95 Talk (DRN Volunteer) 13:25, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.
For your convenience, quoting some of the reasons below - those already mentioned in the above page URL.
rasa+gōllā = রস+গোল্লা #(Rosogolla) - as per Bengali Language dictionaries only, #(the Bengalies tend to pronounce the dental sa as palatal sha and the sound a as o)[1]. However, no other languages Indian dictionaries mention the word gōllā meaning a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা).
রস [rasa] = a liquid solution of anything hard (চিনির রস); a syrup; juice; URL to see http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/রস
গোল্লা [gōllā] = a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা); URL to see http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/গোল্লা
A reading of the scholarly Book named 'The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets by Michael Krondl, Eric Rath, Laura Mason, Geraldine Quinzio, Ursula Heinzelmann' (click here to read), it clearly spells the sweet as rosogolla. The scholarly book states, "rosogolla is primarily associated with West Bengal where it is just one, if perhaps the best known, of numberless channa-based sweets. Channa from cow's milk is considered best for rosogolla.” The book also highlights history of rosogolla associated with Kolkata and West Bengal. There is a full one and half page writing on rosogolla that sufficiently convinces a wise men’s mind that rosogolla indeed associated with Kolkata and West Bengal, since it's invention and till date. Nomenclature, spelling, invention of rosogolla strongly associated with Bengal and Bengali Language speaking people in both places, West Bengal and Bangladesh. Therefore, none should disagree that rosogolla’s validity necessarily rest on the dictionaries of Bengal but not necessarily in any other dictionaries. Any relevant word first enters into a local dictionary, might be updated in the dictionaries of other locations, later.
Rosogolla is a Formal name of the desert, as per initial dictionaries published in India in Bengali Language and other scholarly books relevant. Among many, the dictionary at www.ovidhan.org rasa (রস) means a liquid solution of anything hard (চিনির রস); a syrup; and, gōllā (গোল্লা) means a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা), Therefore, making formal name of the desert Rosogolla. The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets of Oxford University Press, describes Rosogolla at page 359. ISBN 978-0-19-931339-6. Historical Dictionary of the Bengalis of Scarecrow Press, Inc, under series editor Jon Woronoff also describes Rosogolla at page No. 188. ISBN 978-0-8108-8024-5. Therefore, formal name of Rosogolla is undisputed. On the other hand, no other Indian dictionaries, except the above, mentions gōllā, it supports that the same desert named as Rasgulla is COLLOQUIAL in nature. Rasgulla is not perfectly spelt as per NOMENCLATURE also, but called by other language speaking Indians. It's Correct name is Rosogolla. Rosogolla is not only original name, it also is the desert’s formal name therefore, most common and familiar name should be Rosogolla and not Rasgulla.
Almost all, among 254 million Bengali (click here to read), speaking people, both in West Bengal and Bangladesh use the desert Rosogolla and they spell it exactly as Rosogolla, Therefore, considering Rosogolla's comparable actual usage, and the desert’s familiarity with total number of people calling the desert as Rosogolla is much more above the number of people who prefer to call it as Rasgulla.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 13:44, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 10:11, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


  • Opppose - "Rosogolla" is not a formal name, as claimed by the requester. It's just one of the several approximations of the Bengali pronunciation. Even among Bengalis, there are other transliterations (e.g. Nobin Chandra's descendants use "rossogolla", Chittaranjan Mistanna Bhandar uses "rasogolla" etc.) The Odiyas (who claim that their state is the dessert's birthplace) have other spellings for the name, including "rasagolla", "rassogolla", and "rasagola". Going by Google Scholar, Books and News results, "Rasgulla" is by far, the most common of the spellings. The Oxford dictionary also lists the entry for the dish at rasgulla. It's best to retain the current title of the article. utcursch | talk 14:00, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
  • I oppose the name change as it is draws sources from local bengali writers and no scholarly sources. A cook book writer like Banerjee can't be a supreme authority. Moreover if historians say that there is documentary evidence of Puri being the origin and the 13th century Madala Panji has a mention of rasagulla in it's chronicles then it should be taken as the basis of deciding the sweet's origin. The editor says Khiramohan is not rasagolla without any basis as both are made the same way and look the same and taste similar. The superior variety being Khiramohan. Rasagolla is a colloquial term in Odia - "Rasa" means syrup and "golla" means round shaped sweet meat. Now the evidence of origin of such words can be traced to the Odia language and it being an ancient language(classical language) has such words. I will give an example - the sweetdish Kheer was originated in Odisha 2000 years ago in Puri(same place where Rasagulla/Rasagolla) was originated. In Odia Kheer is called "Kheeri" whereas in Bengali it is called Payas. So does that mean Payas is a different dish with Bengali origin? Another example can be the word "Pitha" which is very local to Odisha. Pithas are a variety of dishes made from rice and urad with variations of preparation - sometimes tawa fry or baked. Bengalis also have pithe which is similar kind of preparations of rice dumplings with jaggery, milk etc. But the origin of the word dates baked to Odisha. Another example is Malpua which is originated in Puri again and it is famous all over north India with same recipe and preparation. Does that take away the origin of Malpua. Here Odisha is going for a GI application for the sweet dish "Pahala Rasagola" which is local to Pahala which has a distinct taste and has an age old method of preparation. Pahala rasagola makers have been in the same location for more than 200 years. So the GI application is only for Pahala Rasagola and it will be called "Pahala Rasagola" only for trade benefits to Pahala confectioners. It will not apply for all confectioners Pan-Indian. Just like Hyderabad Haleem or Darjeeling Tea. Haleem and Tea are prepared/grown, nurtured and relished locally and procured in most of the north eastern and southern states of India. It doesn't restrict Assamese or Tamils to grown Tea or Lucknawis to cook Haleem. it is like removing all the history of Kalinga or Utkala as there isnt any Kalinga in present day. I hope we can remove tagging unnecessary cook book writer references supporting any view. The researchers from both side agree that Puri is the birth place of Rasagola as it also appears in the Madala Panji which is the 12th century chronicle of Jagannath temple Puri. And seeing the popularity of Rasagola in Odisha, the Bengali stand can be easily refuted. Pahala alone sells more than 9 million pieces of rasagola everyday.Arjya2002 (talk) 00:11, 15 August 2015 (UTC)username (talkcontribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    • If you can add this information with sources, great, but that doesn't change what spelling is most common in English. —innotata 09:33, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose per in ictu oculi. Since English language sources predominantly use Rasgulla, that's where our article should be (WP:UCN). --regentspark (comment) 16:12, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose Utcursch and In octu oculi have shown that the present spelling is much more commonly used in English sources; I don't ever recall seeing the word spelled any differently personally. —innotata 09:33, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

The question is, a selective decision between the names Rasgulla and Rosogolla, as per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA.

Prevailing:

Wikipedia will not interfere into an administrative action, however erroneous, if not challenged on the grounds of contravention of appellant’s right, as described in the wikipedia policy.

Conclusion:

Considering Talk:Rasgulla#Survey and Talk:Rasgulla#Discussion, erroneous Acts of the administrative opposition, in renaming and moving the article Rasgulla to Rosogolla, not only violates the standards of creative skills, human relations and precise set of methods, such action also contravenes wikipedia’s naming conventions policy. If the instant appeal would fail to reach a reasonable consensus due to prejudiced acts of the administrators concerned, instant appeal must escalate.

Decision:

In my signed statement dated 21:44, 17 August 2015 (UTC) under title Talk:Rasgulla#Discussion, I have categorically proved, how naming of mispronounced Rasgulla has been improperly decided, in violation of standards of creative skills, human relations and precise set of naming methods. Further, my signed statement dated 13:44, 14 August 2015 (UTC) under title Talk:Rasgulla#Survey, flawlessly suggest that, I have established the Rosogolla as a commonly recognizable name by showing reference from the Scholarly English language sources that predominantly use the name Rosogolla. Page 580 here of The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets by By Michael Krondl, Eric Rath, Laura Mason, Geraldine Quinzio, Ursula Heinzelman from Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0-19-931339-6, strongly establishes Rosogolla. This is the latest, updated and corrected Scholarly and valid English language source from Oxford University Press, used for commonly recognizable name as per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA, and the only source that invalidates other previous sources, irrespective for the names of both articles.


Action: Pending as on date.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 06:23, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Woah... "grounds of contravention of appellant’s right", "violates the standards of creative skills, human relations"... that's a whole new level of wiki-lawyering.
I don't have anything to say about your arguments -- I (and others) have already replied to those. As I've mentioned earlier, you are just repeating the same points over and over again.
All I've to say is: please don't insert your comments randomly anywhere on the talk page -- the new comments go at the bottom of the page. Someone reading this discussion has no idea what you or others are responding to, because you've been inserting your comments all over the page. Also, please don't use misleading headings such as "Conclusion", "Decision" etc. And finally, your comments would be easier to read if they didn't feature random bold text and featured a little brevity. utcursch | talk 15:42, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

@utcursch

Hello Utcursch, appellant’s right mean, you probably aware of the fact that by signing with Wikipedia, a new user gets relevant right, since it becomes his duty to abide by Wikipedia's conditions & policy, duty and right are an integral part, it is a natural phenomenon applicable in any statute and fundamental in nature. So by now you probably understood what the phrase meant. Do you?

Standards of creative skills, human relations etc. meant, wile editing a new article, every editor should follow this guide line.

I will have no comment if you don't have any too, but since you have stated, "just repeating the same points" meant you have failed to understand where actually my point lays regarding the issue. You have to reassess it further.

Though understandable, but your statement, "inserting my comments randomly", does not stand valid, since, not randomly but I have a definite pattern of placing comments on the top - where my first comment lays. However, I do agree with you to write the comments after the last.

In regard to "Conclusion", "Decision" etc. I feel you do not have authority over my personal liberty that you are trying to encroach upon.

About bold text, brevity etc. they are mutually acceptable.

Finally it is not you and me or a few more editors who are following instant discussion and other happenings, but I have made arrangement so that an wider people can see them considering the matter is related to Wikipedia policy and my wound due to prejudiced or preconceived opinions and acts - those are not based on reason or actual experience. Let the world know the fact.

Thanks Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 19:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Today's my view on requested page move to Rosogolla

  • The Rasgulla is a mispronounced name, not a commonly recognizable name (CRN) as per Wikipedia Policy.
  • Scholarly English language sources in the main Rasgulla article failed to establish Rasgulla as CRN.
  • Sources even in the main article rather indicate alternative names of targeted Rosogolla; as Rossogolla, rasagolla - are Bengali pronunciations.
  • Consideration been made on Mispronunciations, scholarly sources from native English speaking countries, Deciding inability, the sweet's several Indian English names.
  • India is a country with several languages, Hindi; her national language. A name widely mispronounced by another language-speaking person in India. The sweet is source-able to be a Bengali sweet popular throughout India, accordingly Rosogolla mispronounced as Rasgulla by Hindi speaking people and others, so called by Bengalis, non-Bengali people in India.
  • There are valid source-able grounds in favour of the target name Rosogolla. That almost all 254 million Bengalis in India and Bangladesh likely to use the sweet as Rosogolla; the target name. In West Bengal only, some 8 percent of nation's population consumes half of the country's sixteen billion rupees worth of sweets in 2003, adding to it Bangladesh and Bengalis from other Indian states/ countries would be even more.
  • I found, most opposing voters are not reasonable to oppose the move or, to use their impartial minds.
  • At least one of them seems to be a fake voter.
  • Therefore, your Comment on my views appreciated.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 23:26, 17 August 2015 (UTC)


User:RegentsPark's opposition arbitrary, his reasons have no basis for the following reasons.

The Rasgulla is a mispronounced name, not a commonly recognizable name as per Wikipedia Policy. In addition, the voter ignored to consider those scholarly English language sources, referred in the main Rasgulla article page, predominantly failed to establish Rasgulla as a commonly recognizable name, rather there are clear indications that rasagolla and Rossogolla predominantly used as the names of the sweet. Both, these names alternatives to Rosogolla - the target article name.

(1) One reference source in the main Rasgulla article, "The Oxford Companion to Food by Alan Davidso" – scholarly native English foreign source - mentions, "rasgulla (Hindi) or rasagolla (Bengali) or rasbari (Nepali), a Bengali sweet popular throughout India. This English source does not use Rasgulla, it rather predominantly use rasagolla - alternative name of the target Rosogolla article. In addition to that, the source clearly says about the sweet, "a Bengali sweet popular throughout India."

(2) Another, native English foreign source in the main article, “The Sweetshops of Kolkata, Gastronomica Journal 10 by Michael Krondl, Page 58," mentions, "Rossogolla is made from similar dough but is boiled rather than fried. When soaked in milk-based syrup, it is called rossomalai." This source too does not use Rasgulla rather predominantly uses Rossogolla, - alternative name of the target Rosogolla article.

(3) Another native English foreign source in the main article, ‘Sweet Invention: A History of Dessert by Michael Krondl,’ mentions in the pages 55-59, “"Rossogolla, a syrup-poached dumpling of fresh curd, is arguably India's favorite desert." This source too does not use Rasgulla rather predominantly uses Rossogolla, - alternative name of the target Rosogolla article.

(4) Most references in the Rasgulla article do not indicate name of the sweet as Rasgulla, rather other name relevant to Rosogolla. I have ignored them for the following reasons.

I have taken scholarly English sources mainly published in native English speaking foreign countries, but I ignored Indian and Bangladeshi news articles, most of which are unscholarly, some even biased, even mispronounced, and ignored unscholarly books published in India or Bangladesh for four important reasons. (i). Mispronounced. (ii). Relevance - native English speaking countries. (iii). Deciding inability and, (iv). The sweet has too many Indian English names. These reasons described below.

Mispronounced: India is a country with several languages, so name in a language widely mispronounced in another language. A name in Bengali, or any other Indian languages, frequently mispronounced by other language-speaking persons, it is a common mistake in India. Hindi is India’s national language.

Native English speaking countries, relevance: Taking scholarly sources from native English speaking foreign countries would be appropriate as long as usage of English term is concerned.

Deciding inability: It is simply not easy to decide between Rosogolla and Rasgulla, which name mostly used in India. It is certain Bangladesh use Rosogolla or its alternative names but never use Rasgulla, Bangladesh prefers to avoid a Hindi pronunciation.

The sweet has too many Indian English names: English sources in India not only use Rosogolla, also uses its other alternatives names including Rasgulla, almost 254 million Bengalis in India and Bangladesh use Rosogolla. Where in West Bengal only, some 8 percent of nation's population consumes half of the country's sixteen billion rupees worth of sweets in 2003, adding Bangladesh and other Bengali speaking Indian states would be even more.

User:RegentsPark has no valid reason in support of his opposition, nor the main Rasgulla is a commonly recognizable names as per its own sources, unfortunately, he seems biased too.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 21:44, 17 August 2015 (UTC)


Umm... so, according to one of your refs, the spelling is "Rasagolla" and according to the second one, it's "Rosogolla". But you want the article to be moved to a third spelling "Rosogolla"? Self-goal. As for your other argument, this is not Bengali Wikipedia. The Bengali pronunciation of Tagore might be Bengali pronunciation: [ʈʰakur]. "Tagore" might be incorrect and unpopular among Bengali speakers, but it's the most common in English sources, and that's what we use. You're just cherry picking sources and repeating the same points over and over again, while ignoring any evidence that doesn't support your argument. utcursch | talk 22:15, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

@User:Utcursch

Let us be specific to the objective, the question is a decision between the names Rasgulla and Rosogolla. Now User:RegentsPark has mentioned to use commonly recognizable names. Accordingly, I have replied keeping in mind said sources in the main rasgulla article. Somehow you have questioned my reply intended for User:RegentsPark, the act is fine and my pleasure too.

In regard to Rasagolla and Rosogolla endeavour has been made to establishd Rosogolla citing Scholarly source that states, "the Bengalies tend to pronounce the dental sa as palatal sha and the sound a as o," Feel free to see my reasons here => Talk:Rasgulla#Survey

However, I am well aware of and an editor for Thakur. However, Thakur-Tagore principle not likely applicable in the instant case, since we have to use commonly recognizable name as per Wikipedia, and we will have to decide accordingly. Renaming, through local mispronunciation, and renaming through international anglicization, not really the same.

Rabindranath was a human being and a Nobel laureate, lingering and intrinsic value concerned, but the concerned sweet a lifeless material ends as soon as one eats it. So, Thakur-Tagore theory not likely applicable in the instant case. Do they?

Thanks

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 00:55, 18 August 2015 (UTC)


My observation as follows:
Rosogolla of West Bengal versus Rasgulla alleged to be of Odisha.
  • It is necessary to mention here that in Odisha the Jagannath Temple at Puri does not allow any foreign visitors to enter in to the Temple premises, not even a non Hindu Indian. It raises a question about communality in any wise men's mind.
  • A reading of the scholarly Book named 'The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets' (click here to read), clearly spells the sweet as rosogolla. The scholarly book states, "rosogolla is primarily associated with West Bengal where it is just one, if perhaps the best known, of numberless channa-based sweets. Channa from cow's milk is considered best for rosogolla.” The book also highlights history of rosogolla associated with Kolkata and West Bengal.
There is a full one and half page writing on rosogolla that sufficiently convinces a wise men’s mind that rosogolla indeed associated with Kolkata and West Bengal, since it's invention and till date. Nomenclature, spelling, invention of rosogolla strongly associated with Bengal and Bengali Language speaking people in both places, West Bengal and Bangladesh.
Therefore, none should disagree that rosogolla’s validity necessarily rest on the dictionaries of Bengal but not necessarily in any other dictionaries. Any relevant word first enters into a local dictionary, might be updated in the dictionaries of other locations, later.
  • rasa+gōllā = রস+গোল্লা (Rosogolla) [2] - as per Bengali Language dictionaries only, (the Bengalies tend to pronounce the dental sa as palatal sha and the sound a as o). However, no other languages Indian dictionaries mention the word gōllā meaning a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা).
  • রস [rasa] = a liquid solution of anything hard (চিনির রস); a syrup; juice; URL to see http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/রস
  • গোল্লা [gōllā] = a globular sweetmeat (রসগোল্লা, কাঁচাগোল্লা); URL to see http://www.ovidhan.org/b2b/গোল্লা
  • A search in Google with the string "gōllā" throws more light on the validity of Rosogolla.
  • A search in Google Book with the string "Rosogolla] yield even more satisfactory result in favour and on the validity of Rosogolla.
  1. ^ Kunal Chakrabarti, Shubhra Chakrabarti (22 August 2013). Historical Dictionary of the Bengalis. Scarecrow Press, Inc. pp. xiv–. ISBN 978-0-8108-8024-5.
  2. ^ Kunal Chakrabarti, Shubhra Chakrabarti (22 August 2013). Historical Dictionary of the Bengalis. Scarecrow Press, Inc. pp. xiv–. ISBN 978-0-8108-8024-5.
  3. ^ Darra Goldstein, Sidney Mintz, Michael Krondl, Eric Rath, Laura Mason, Geraldine Quinzio, Ursula Heinzelmann (1 April 2015). The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets. Oxford University Press. pp. 359–. ISBN 978-0-19-931339-6.
  4. ^ "History of rossogolla now just a click away". The Times of India. 15 March 2013.
  5. ^ Kunal Chakrabarti, Shubhra Chakrabarti (22 August 2013). Historical Dictionary of the Bengalis. Scarecrow Press, Inc. pp. 188–. ISBN 978-0-8108-8024-5.
Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 15:50, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 16:45, 16 August 2015 (UTC)


The word Channa is a Bengali pronunciation for "Chenna" which is more popular in most of the India. In Odisha is also called Chenna and is made from milking curdling by Whey. Unlike the Portuguese origin which is made of animal enzyme. The sweet dish Chenna Poda is also originated in Odisha which has more than 350 years of history in Nayagarh. Nimapada, Kendrapada have simila Chenna based sweets called Chenna Jhili, Rasabali, Chenna Muduki. So Chenna was not unknown to Odisha and these sweets are not recent inventions. Gola means round shaped in most of the languages in India. Gola is anything round shaped. It doesnt necessarily mean only sweet. If such kind of definition is given in a bengali dictionary it is only for local consumption and has nothing to do with any other community. And why do you say that it doesn't appear in any other dictionary. Have you never come across Gola word in Hindi? Or have you done a thorough study of Odia dictionary. If there is reference to Rasagola in Madala Panji of Jagannath Temple then it should precede any recent cook book or news paper article references. And why is news paper articles given as references here again and again. I would request moderation of such references. Also the original article was well balanced and removing authentic references and diluting the content is not a good idea. If there is reference of "Rasa" and "Gola" in Odia language why the Bengali version can be accepted as original knowing Odia being more ancient and uninfluenced with 2000 years of written and spoken history and Bengali being a more recent language influenced by Arabic and Hindi. I request moderation of unwanted references and unnecessary verbose. If you want to keep the Bengali view please restrict it to that. Don't claim that you are an expert of all languages in the subcontinent.Arjya2002 (talk) 01:12, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Why Odisha’s Rasgulla and Khiramohana are same?

(1) It seems the editors and administrators, involving this article Rasgulla, are not interested to address the item no 3 in Talk:Rasgulla#Khiramohana so as to resolve the name of the article Rasgulla as original and formal and establish Rasgulla Wikipedia worthy. (note1).

(2) (i) Admittedly, the Khira Mohana is the predecessor of Rasgulla, so the question is, why not a request might be made for the article Rasgulla to rename in its original & historical name Khira Mohana or, Pahala rasgulla? (note2). (Refer next item.)

(ii) The Item 1.1 of the article Rasgulla#History mentions, “According to historians of Odisha, the Rasgulla originated in Puri, as Khira Mohana, which later evolved into the Pahala rasgulla." Bishwabijoy, Mitra (6 July 2015). "Who invented the rasgulla?". Times of India. Retrieved 2 August 2015.. The concerned news also mentions, "In Odisha, they claim equally vehemently that the Rasgulla was invented there (Odisha) and has been offered to Lord Jagannath for centuries. So how could it possibly belong to Bengal (West Bengal)?" Therefore, I need to clear this question that, if Khira Mohana evolved into the Pahala rasgulla how is it possible Khira Mohana became Rasgulla, before I raise a request for renaming Rasgulla in its original & historical name, preferably Khira Mohana or, Pahala rasgulla. (note3).

(iv) According to above observation, the article Rasgulla tries to reflect that Khira Mohana became Rasgulla through another naming Pahala rasgulla. So it will reasonably be interpreted that Khira Mohana, Pahala rasgulla and Rasgulla all are different names of the same sweet. (nore4).

(v) As per the statement of utcursch | talk, Rasgulla editor and administrator of the article Rasgulla , it made clear in the page Talk:Rasgulla#Survey that the Odiyas (who claim that their state is the dessert's birthplace) have other spellings for the name, including "rasagolla", "rassogolla", and "rasagola." (note5)

Therefore, it will reasonably be interpreted that not only Khira Mohana, Pahala rasgulla and Rasgulla are different names of the same sweet (refer above item iv) , but "rasagolla", "rassogolla", "rasagola, Khira Mohana, Pahala rasgulla and Rasgulla - all are different names of the same sweet (nore6).

(3) I am confused, and there is a question in my mind about neutrality of the administrator and editors of the article Rasgulla that the article Rosogolla was deleted, (refer Talk:Rosogolla), by the administrator SpacemanSpiff and supported by the administrator editor utcursch | talk of the article Rasgulla on the grounds “two article for the same desert cannot be there in Wikipedia here, However, said deleting administrator intentionally ignored to keep the article Khira Mohana even when the article [[Rusgulla} establishes itself for the same sweet. Is not it a biased act of the persons concerned?

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 14:47, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The Syrupy Sweets in a nutshell. - A fact.[edit]

  • Khiramohana or, Kheer Mohan is a creamish sweet popular & invented in Odisha since the Jagannath Temple, Puri came into existence. The sweet, offered to the goddess Lakshmi during the Rath Yatra of the temple. Now, the sweet is though made of chhena and cooked in sugar syrup but there is no concrete evidence that chhena, which we know today, existed at the time of the sweet's invention. It is very unlikely of its existence then.
  • Pahala Rasgulla, the descendant and an alternative name of Khiramohana , is a yellowish brown, crumbly, syrupy sweet popular & available only in Pahala region of Odisha.
  • Rosogolla is a light spongy white ball of chhana stewed in sugar syrup (rasa). The form of Rosogolla that we know today is different from Khiramohana of Odisha in various aspects. Evidenly, Nobin Chandra Das of Kolkata, West Bengal, discovered the sweet. Its alternative names are Rossogolla, Rasagolla & Roshogolla, and its variations are Kamala Bhog, Raj Bhog, Roso Malai etc. The name of the sweet is anglicize to Rasgulla, after many non-Bengali speaking Indians started calling it by this name.
  • NB: Kheer in Kheer Mohan, suggests a condensed milk pudding, is not chhena.
Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 16:47, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Khiramohan - Khira is milk in Odia and it is not a milk pudding. Kheeri is a milk pudding invented in the same temple town of Puri. It is highly recommended for you to study Odia and then comeback and write essays here. Khiramohan is dedicated to the round shape of the Lord. Here Khira also means white. The Khiramohan is white in color unlike the Pahala Rasagulla and Salepur Rasagulla which are creamish in color. The Chappan bhog also uses 2 other chhena sweets in Sakala Dhupa - Chhena Khai and Rasabali which establishes the fact that Chhena is used in other temple offerings. Puri temple cuisine has not been altered since it's inception. I think you should strike down the concrete evidence argument after this. And why there is no concrete evidence of Nobin Chandra Das's invention? Why don't you research on finding a concrete evidence rather than objecting to the fact of Puri Temple tradition. Apply reverse logic and find out how Rasagolla was borrowed from Khiramohan and probably you would get the answer. There is no foreign object(not native to Odisha) is offered to the Lord. This is the proof that Rasagulla or Chenna based sweets were in vogue since centuries in Odisha. For the record Rasamalai is known as rasamalai all around India and "Roso" is just a pronunciation and not the original word. Puri, Bhubaneswar, Gajapati, Sambhala, Kosala where ancient places of culture, food, language, art and traditions are very different from neighboring kingdoms and states. The only glorious period in the history of Bengal was the rule of Shashanka and it was only for 4 decades. Bengal was either rules by Kings of Magadha or Kalinga. Is it your ignorance or your prejudice that is a problem here? I am amazed by your interpretations of odia languages without knowing a bit of Odia.Arjya2002 (talk) 05:03, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Forked content[edit]

I have restored the forked article within the talk space of this article per request, at Talk:Rasgulla/forked content. Note that it can be used for reference purposes for discussion and to establish consensus and that is what I'm restoring it for. It is not meant as an endorsement for the content or as a replacement for the existing article, both of which I have no position on, just an uninvolved admin action. —SpacemanSpiff 13:52, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Above information noted.

Thanks Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 14:33, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Balance[edit]

As of now the article is heavily biased towards the bengali view which is inappropriate. The original article was balanced. There is no clear documentation available on NC Das invention validity. Whereas there is documentary evidence of Rasagulla in Pahala and Puri. In the last for lines of the Odia claim section we shouldn't put the bengali view. Odia claim should be only Odia and Bengali view should be only bengali. Presently it is a mix up to impress on the Bengali claim. Suggesting a change to the editors --68.119.213.239 (talk) 23:08, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

The section about the Odiya claim is the best place for the arguments against that claim. It provides the readers proper context. The Bengali section also includes the line "according to another theory, he modified the traditional Odisha rasgulla recipe". It also includes a paragraph on the theory that Nobin Chandra Das did not invent the sponge rasgulla recipe. If you have something more to add, feel free to do so with a source. The article looks fairly balanced and neutral to me. utcursch | talk 04:32, 15 August 2015 (UTC)


What is the basis of the claim? The word Rasagola or Rasgulla is called Rosogolla in Bengali. Just like Durga is called Durgo and Ajay is called Ajoy. It is just the pronunciation and usage local to Bengal.

The person argues that KT Achaya and Chitrita Banerjee say milk curlding was a taboo till 19th century. Where is the proof to that? These are mere conjectures. Chitrita Banerjee is a cook book writer and not a historian. She only writes on Bengali cuisine and has little knowledge of food habits from India or elsewere. She only writes Bengali recipes and food habits. Same is KT Achaya. He is not a food historian but a food scientist. A food chemist or a scientist work on food processing and technologies and not cuisine and food habits. Historians don't research on food and it is not a serious line of study. It is a mere hobby.

The only credible research on Rasagulla was done by historian J Padhi and C Mahapatra who read the temple chronicle Madala Panji and have established that there atleast 600 years of history of Rasagulla in Puri. Prof. Utpal RayChaudhuri or Jadavpur University also says that Rasagolla was invented in 13th Century in temple town of Puri. The Khiramohan means White Eyes - dedicated to the eyes of Sri Jagannath which is round in shape. Khiramohan is not creamish in color. It is white like "Khira" which means milk. To understand the usage of words in Odia is difficult. One word can have different meaning. Like mansa which means meat and it also means pulses. The Jagannath Temple chronicles are written in sanskritised Odia and Telegu and here Khira means white in color dedicated to the white round eyes of the Lord.

Milk curdling is an ancient Odia technique. This was developed by the Jainas of Odisha. Odisha was ruled by Jain kings since 2nd Century BC until the Somavamshis came. Being a tropical country milk has very less life and it curdles naturally due to temperature so the Jains started milk curdling by whey. Chenna is in vogue in Odisha since ancient times and atleast few centuries before it went to Bengal. The proof is the presence of two other Chenna based sweet in Chappan Bhog of Puri Temple - Rasabali and Chenna Khai. Chenna is a very colloquial term in Puri itself. Everyone knows the temple cuisine has no outside influence since 9 centuries. Rasagola is offered only during Niladri Bije and it is an annual ritual. But rest all days Rasabali and Chenna Khai is offered. Milk based products are very native to Puri. The Rabari and Kheer are also invented in Puri. The Odias call it Kheeri and the Bengalis call it Payas - does that mean Kheeri and Payas are not same? There has to be some logic behind any argument and our friend has deleted previous content of the "Talk" page which established the fact with accurate evidences. Arjya2002 (talk) 04:24, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Two articles for same the same sweet?[edit]

I am confused, and there is a question in my mind about neutrality of the administrator and editors of the article Rasgulla that the article Rosogolla was deleted, (refer Talk:Rosogolla), by the administrator SpacemanSpiff and supported by the administrator editor utcursch | talk of the article Rasgulla on the grounds “two article for the same desert cannot be there in Wikipedia here, However, said deleting administrator intentionally ignored to keep the article Khira Mohana even when the article [[Rusgulla} establishes itself for the same sweet. Is not it a biased act of the persons concerned?

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 14:52, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Pinging involved (Editor did not ping) editors. @SpacemanSpiff and Utcursch:. Regards—JAaron95 Talk 15:20, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@User:Jaaron95

I thank your for your above suggestion and it is noted.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 00:40, 16 August 2015 (UTC)


That is probably because Khiramohana is not the same thing as a rasgulla and because the 'origin' theory based on Khiramohana is disputed. --regentspark (comment) 16:21, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@regentspark

Since you have used the word 'probably' that allows me around 50% chance in my favour. I think my reply to utcursch below along with perusal of stated reason might increase the said percentage above 50% in my favour. Thanks

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 00:40, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

SpacemanSpiff (who deleted your Rosogolla article) probably did not come across Khiramohana article. I removed the image of Rasgulla from that page, arguing that it is not same as the modern rasgulla (the references mentioned in the Rasgulla article say that Khiramohana was a precursor of Rasgulla, and later evolved into the Pahala rasgulla).
That said, I don't see any unique content in the article Khiramohana, and it should probably be redirected to this article, especially since you have indicated that you intended to create it as a fork of this article. utcursch | talk 16:28, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@utcursch | talk(there was a wrong addressing, now corrected)

Since, SpacemanSpiff last message to me that I have seen earlier today, has expressed his displeasure and about my disrupting behaviour. So I have decided to let him feel free and relaxed, since then I am trying to restraint myself in coming to Wikipedia, though I am keeping a close watch on all the Wikipedia emails. However, I am supposed to answer questions, for clear mutual understandings, so I am replying this.

I would like to mention that the above statement, made by me, is a conclusive one that does not show the reasons for coming in the same. However, after going through the entire reasons available above here under heading "Why Odisha’s Rasgulla and Khiramohana are same," one may be able to better understand why I have come to this conclusive statement.

It is necessary to mention here that both the articles Khiramohana and Rosogolla were created by me on the same date, and during their creation I have some points in my minds in favour of their creation. So I am not new to any of these articles but aware of them considerably. I have also included "citation needed tag" on Khiramohana article. Both of them were created by me on same grounds and standings - those I considered reasonable.

However, I know it very well that both Khiramohana and Rosogolla articles stood good chance of survival (they really are) but Rosogolla is deleted while not Khiramohana. This is very questionable. To understand my view, It is necessary to consider stated reasons above.

Finally, irrespective of these articles outcome (that depends on application of certain principle) none, but I have one thing to expect from Wikipedia - A reasonable consideration.

Thanks Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 00:40, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Moving Article RasgullaRosogolla would benefit the wider community.[edit]

@Jenks24 (talk

Wikipedia is not a dictionary but an encyclopedia, therefore, the content and title name of an article there, necessarily needs to be encyclopedic, not as in the case of dictionaries. The naming of the sweet cannot straightforwardly choose as Rasgulla. However, the naming in Wikipedia appears to be followed only the Oxford dictionaries, as an anglicize name loaned from a foreign country. But the name obviously misspelled there, as the dictionary mentions rasgullā originates in Hindi – so the name to be disambiguated to avoid confusion with Rosogolla for the reasons many reliable English-language sources mentions the sweet name Rosogolla, The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets describes Rosogolla is primarily associated with West Bengal, then Bengal in British India. The fact establishes the origin of the sweet is in Bengal - a part of greater India, not Hindi, in Bengal the sweet is called Rosogolla since its initial usage.

Nevertheless, here rises a question, whether Wikipedia must stick to its current naming when the naming is misleading or inaccurate.

As per description of Wikipedia, the naming the sweet should be seen as goals, not as rules. Whereas, considering the deleted article Rosogolla's naturalness, consistency, prevalence in many reliable English-language sources, as well as its usage around 250 million Bengali people in Bangladesh, West Bengal, other states in India and world over, the name Rosogolla has come into majority use. The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets highlights Rosogolla, and describes often-spelled Rasgulla, it is a very new edition published in the United Kingdom and the US. The name Rosogolla has been preferred in several publications in United Kingdom and the US. Some of these books are (1) Milk - Beyond the Dairy: Proceedings of the Oxford Symposium on Food... by Harlan Walke, Page 58. (2) Strategic Management: Formulation, Implementation and Control, by PEARCE, Page 179. (3) Food Culture in India, by Colleen Taylor Sen.

Besides the above, there are too many reliable English sources available in the publications in the United Kingdom and the US those mention the sweet as Rosogolla. A confusing entry in the Oxford dictionaries cannot really overlook Rosogolla’s merit as a title name from the reliable English-language sources.

Therefore, my goal is to move the article Rasgulla to Rosogolla and the move would benefit a wider community.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 14:58, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

I would think that the name should of the article should be Roshogolla, as is commonly used where this dish is primarily consumed in Bengal and Odisha, to reflect the reality rather than an erroneous colonial-era Oxford dictionary Romanization. Such debates over romanization of names make one remember why Kolkata had to officially change it's name to Kolkata before dictionaries worldwide took notice and changed the listing from Calcutta. Unfortunately Roshogolla is not a municipal body or any other official authority, but the official authorities in the state of West Bengal too amply reflect the reality in always calling it Roshogolla rather than some fictitious colonial Rasgulla. As can be noticed in numerous credible news articles of very prominent mainstread media cited in the main Roshogolla article itself.

171.79.91.125 (talk) 14:59, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Names Rasgulla, Rosogolla & Indian diaspora Bangladesh redefined.[edit]

Oxford Dictionaries describe rasgulla origin from Hindi rasgullā, from ras 'juice' + gullā 'ball'. The Oxford Companion to Sugar and Sweets By Michael Krondl, Eric Rath, Laura Mason, Geraldine Quinzio, Ursula Heinzelmann. Page 580 describes, "rosogolla, often spelled rasgulla, is a popular Indian ball-shaped sweet prepared from chhana (fresh milk curd) soaked in sugar syrup. These moist treats are common sight as sweet shops across the subcontinent. In India, rosogolla is primarily associated with West Bengal, where it is just one, if perhaps the best known, of numberless chhana-based sweets." Page 359 of the same book describes, "Bengalis - inhabitants of the Indian state of West Bengal and the Republic of Bangladesh - are famous for their love of misti, or sweets, considered the apogee of the Indian sweet maker's art. Most commercial sweets are made from channa; khoa is used mainly as a secondary ingredient".... "The most famous sweets are rosogolla, a light spongy white ball of chhana served in sugar syrup; rajbhog, a giant rosogolla; a dark-colored fried version called ledikini; cham cham, small patties dipped in thick-ended milk and sprinkled with grated khoa; ras malai, khoa and sugar balls floating in cardamom-flavoured cream; and pantua, sausage-shaped spheres fried to a golden brown and dropped in sugar syrup."

Accordingly, the Article has been modified.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 22:41, 27 August 2015 (UTC)


Origin of the sweet name.

Origin of the name Rasgulla to be disambiguated to avoid confusion with Rosogolla or Rasagola. Significantly, 254 million Bengali never use the name Rasgulla - the number is above Hindi speaking people even much above the users of the sweet calling it Rasgulla. Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 01:09, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

You've been explained this a number of times: Rasgulla is the most popular name in English sources. It doesn't matter if its origin is in Hindi, Bengali, or Japanese. utcursch | talk 01:17, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
@Snthakur: It appears you're finding it hard to understand, so I'll make it easy for you: http://i.imgur.com/BPzO0wP.png. utcursch | talk 01:40, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Whether biased editing.

Following revisions, and the revisions in between, need to be considered whether any biased editing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rasgulla&type=revision&diff=678212644&oldid=675385379

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 01:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Merged three sections on same topic. Abecedare (talk) 02:53, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Disruptive editor[edit]

It is to mention here that Move review Rasgulla and the following edit attempts are different issues.

As per suggestions of JamesBWatson 12:52, 19 August 2015 (UTC) and Human3015 04:22, 18 August 2015 (UTC) on my Talk page Snthakur I have made following revision attempts with the 1st edit summary "Redefined - Rasgulla, Rosogolla, Indian diaspora Bangladesh" follows:

→ "Rasgulla" & "Mauritius" → Snthakur 1st revision → "Rasgulla(hi)[7] or, Rosogolla(bn)[8][9]" & "Bangladesh"

utcursch undid above, and edits Rasagola → "Rasgulla, also known as Rosogolla (in Bengali) or Rasagola (in Odiya)" & "Bangladesh" (it was acceptable to me)

utcursch again undid above, and removes Bangladesh → "Rasgulla in Hindi, known as Rosogolla in Bengali or Rasagola in Odiya" & "South Asian"

utcursch again removes Rosogolla, Rasagola including Bangladesh, creates a section "Name'→ The dessert is known as Rosogolla or Roshogolla in Bengali and Rasagola in Odiya .....

However, utcursch's act of removing Rosogolla (in Bengali) or Rasagola (in Odiya)" & "Bangladesh" is an arbitrary act and not with consensus either with JamesBWatson and Human3015 and Snthakur

Therefore there was an obvious concern with disruptive editor utcursch for the above content issue.

Please suggest so as to what shall I do now?

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 11:03, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

@Snthakur: If an editor is disruptive, consider discussing the issue with him/her. If the editor doesn't comply (or) continues his/her disruptive behavior, consider reporting them at WP:AN/I. Before reporting them, make sure you've kept yourself clean. There are instances in which ones report backfire on themselves. Hope that helps. Regards—JAaron95 Talk 11:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
As Snthakur has been blocked for 48 hours for disruptive editing, don't expect a reply. Doug Weller (talk) 14:30, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Leaving this for Snthakur when he returns: Please read WP:BRD. If you make a change, and someone disagrees with it, you should discuss it on the talk page and not add it back until a consensus is reached.
Especially in this case, where your obsession with the spelling "Rosogolla" has not been taken well by multiple other editors, you need to stop engaging in revert wars and repetitive comments.
I gave the reasons for undoing your edit in edit summaries, as well as on your talk page:
  1. Bangladesh is included in the term "Indian subcontinent", so there is no need to mention it separately. Also, the term "Indian diaspora" does not refer to people of Bangladesh.
  2. Just because a term originated in Hindi doesn't mean that it's a Hindi term. Oxford English Dictionary is an English dictionary and lists Rasgulla under "British & World English" terms. It literally says on that page that it's an English definition.
The Bengali Wikipedia article is at রসগোল্লা, the Odiya article is at ରସଗୋଲା -- both of them maintain the same spelling throughout. Similarly, the English Wikipedia article should maintain the same spelling throughout for consistency. The dish has several variant spellings in English, and mentioning them all in the lead section creates clutter. And that spelling is the one that is most common in English language (this has been discussed to death in your failed move request, so I'm not going to repeat those arguments again).
utcursch | talk 14:55, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2015[edit]

Dear Madam / sir, to support rasgola / Kheera Mohan as Orissa dish below are points. 1. Chenna / chees is not only invented by portugees, it has invented by various places in world. 2. In orssa there are two verieties of chees 1. kheera Chenna 2. dahi chenna and both are part of oriya local festivals. 3. the Boiling process of Rasgola / Kheera Mohan is very likely from Orsaa as there are so many recipe are done by Boilling process and still oriya people do it on Oriya parba/festivals example: water boiled Mandaa peetha(amny festivals) and paani gaintha(offered during deepabali) 4. No foreign products are offered in jagannath temple like Patoes(bilati Alu, Tamatoes(bilati baigana) and so many.The offering process is too strict in puri that it is unlikely might have introduced by any one from bengal. 5. Most cook from orissa doing job in rich bengoli house.who might spread rasgola in bengal. 6. Most likely this testy Rasgola inveted by Orissa , but due to lack of publishity , powerfull benolis made it on their name. 7. Bengoli have tried to supress Oriya as language,so they might have renamed Kheera mohan / Rasa Golaa as rasgulla. 8. Chhapan Bhoga (56 items of Puri) belongs to lord jagganath. thats why rasgola which is not in 56 items is offered to Maha Laxmi. 9. perishible Rasgola with semolina invented in orissa, then that is improved to keep for more days, Bengoli people made is spongy with out semolina. 10. chenna gaja also another version of rasgola which is most likely from orissa 11. In Kendra para, Chhatia batta, Lord jagannath is offered Rasaa Bali, another version of rasgola.which is very old temple of Orissa. 12. some times powerfull established people put their name or seal on good product, as america was trying to make paitent on turmeric and neem.simillarly Bengolis established this rasgola as their as they were more power full due to British rule.

other supporting truths


13. simmilarly they more speak about Neta ji subash chandra bose as bengoli, who is an Oriya(bengoli origin not bengoli as he born and brought up in cuttack) from Cuttack, many people do not know. 14. Kalpana chawala might be Indian origin, but she is American as she born and brought up in USA. 115.99.98.108 (talk) 06:19, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up each one of your 14 requests, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 08:00, 21 September 2015 (UTC)


″Rashogolla, like the most sweets in India will always and forever be a Bengali thing. Remember that Bengali households still are known for their amazing food culture and this fact is known world-wide :)

is this the only piece of heritage that you can show off to the world? Seriously there are better things to latch onto

chaitanna mahaprabhu did come from GEOGRAPHICAL ORISSA but back then there was no orissa, are we forgetting this?

and your dear lord ASHOKA the great wasn’t your hero too until he defeated your so called “kalinga empire”. he was a scavenger of kalinga and not a king your bali, sumatra etc “J(y)ATRAS” came form LORD ASHOKA’S INVASION of your pillage state.

tanSEN was bengali my dear friend, so were a lot of other people! want to see the entire list as it stands today? so was subash chandra bose and sri aurobindo :)

and i can name a million others and i am proud to say our greateness can be exerted beyond our national borders. we are the fifth largest speakers!

these guys are not just making India proud but half the world knows about these guys dude :)

c’mon we bengalis have won pretty much every award in the world stage you name it we have it and we are damn proud of what we have :)

its the only country in the world which took rebellion because it couldn’t speak its mother tongue and it won! and won so hard that the UN had to adopt that day as the international language day, which celebrates languages from all over the world.

did you know that the FAMOUS SEARS TOWER is architectured by another bengali?″

KAMONASISH AAYUSH MAZUMDAR

MBA, Institute of Management Technology, Ghaziabad

Co-Founder at Yappily (earlier known as Koove) Bengaluru, Karnataka — Preceding unsigned comment added by AngelicdevilKAM (talkcontribs) 05:17, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Page name change[edit]

To reflect reality cited in links embedded in page itself, I propose that the name of this page be changed to either Roshogolla (Bengali) or Rosgola (Odia), since nowhere where this dessert is most commonly consumed, and was created, in Bengal and in Odisha, is it popularly called Rasgulla. By any stretch of imagination.

Relevant note should also be added in the page mentioning that in the North Indian languages of Hindi/Urdu as used in the Northern parts of India/Pakistan, the name for the same dish is Rasgulla.

171.79.91.125 (talk) [S. Basu , Kolkata, India] 14:50, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

See WP:COMMONNAME. utcursch | talk 15:09, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

"Rosogolla originated in West Bengal, rule GI authorities, finally rejecting Odisha's claim on its origin."[edit]

I have Requested the page move on 14 August 2015 Rasgulla → Rosogolla and prior to that and to this move request I have also given verifiable reasons in support of my submission said including others, the entire edit history of this page and other relevant pages created by this editor reflect/support in favour of above statements and now this editor hopes those declining administrators concerned now probably understand how prejudiced they were rejecting this editor's all relevant edits improperly, for the reason the GI Authorities now rule Rosogolla originated in West Bengal rejecting Odisha claim over its origin. Refer Rosogolla originated in West Bengal, rule GI authorities, rejecting Odisha claim

[| The page move requested on 14 August 2015] indicates the following, but prejudicial rejected.

Rasgulla → Rosogolla – Editor Snthakur has requested that this page be moved to Rosogolla stating, 'Rosogolla is the formal, original, familiar and most common name of this dessert.'

Regards

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 12:55, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't matter where rasgulla/rosogolla originated. What matters is what its common name is. See WP:COMMONNAME.--regentspark (comment) 12:58, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


Still impugned, it was very much relevant where Rosogolla originated and also it's most common name is Rosogolla and not Rasgulla (established if the desert's popularity is statistically considered, and not decided by the authority). The concluding part of the move request reads, 'Rosogolla is the formal, original, familiar and most common name of this dessert.'

So that the feature name Rasgulla improperly accepted and established as final name, instead of this editor's endeavour to rename the desert's original name Rosogolla, the entire biased edits of the current feature content Rasgulla too has been accepted and upheld by those prejudiced administrators rejecting this editor's creation of new feature named Rosogolla or his endeavour in renaming the page Rasgulla as Rosogolla. A through study of the edit history of the feature Rasgulla, and also the feature Rosogolla, would reflect what is true and correct statements or what is impugned.

The Wikipedia appears to run by its guidelines and rules, and obviously not by the authority of those authoritative administrators relevant. Such an authoritative rule neither healthy for Wikipedia nor likely to work in the long run, this is something that can be compared with religious belief and scientific acceptance, the editor endeavoured scientific throughout his entire endeavours in this context.

Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 13:42, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

@Snthakur: who are the "authoritative administrators relevant"? And yes, we have our own guidelines and rules. And no, you are wrong about the GI which is only for "Banglar Rasogolla", see below. Doug Weller talk 14:44, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
Also, the GI Registry office has clarified that it has not settled the debate on the sweet's origin, or rejected Odisha's claim as reported by some media outlets. Odisha is free to apply for a GI tag for its own variation. See "Sweet War: This GI tag is for Banglar Rosogolla, it is not about the origin". utcursch | talk 15:00, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

GI decision is more specific - it is only for "Banglar Rasogolla" as originally requested and mentioned in the lead.[edit]

Application Number 533

Geographical Indications Banglar Rasogolla

Status Registered

Applicant Name West Bengal State Food Processing and Horticulture Development corporation Limited

Applicant Address 2nd floor Mayukh Bhavan, DF Block Sector-I,Salt Lake, Kolkata 700 0091 Facilitated by Patent Information Centre, Government of West Bengal, Kolkata, West Bengal, India, 700091

Date of Filing 18/09/2015

Class 30

Goods Food Stuffs

Geographical Area West Bengal

Priority Country India

Journal Number 99

Availability Date 14/07/2017

Certificate Number 303

Certificate Date 14/11/2017

Registration Valid Upto 17/09/2025 Doug Weller talk 14:40, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Redirect created[edit]

Anyone searching for Banglar Rasogolla will now reach this article. Doug Weller talk 14:42, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing detailed on the issue and the verdict relevant.
However, establishment of Banglar Rasogolla or the Rasogolla do not make Rasgulla a different desert than the former named. In fact Rasogolla, Banglar Rasogolla and Rasgulla are the names of the same desert, while the name of the desert Rasogolla is most popular and common name.
Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 15:06, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
From the West Bengal government, which applied for the GI status: "There is no conflict with Odisha. What we want is to protect the identity of our Rasogolla. Their product is different from ours both in colour, texture, taste, juice content and method of manufacturing." utcursch | talk 15:52, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 November 2017[edit]

Under Sections Variations, Please change caption Rasgullas to Rosogollas where there is bengali reference. specifically first and sixth image. Ansuman28 (talk) 20:50, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Note: In the article I saw the first reference given to Bengali under the section 'names' is Roshogolla and you now say Rosogollas (please note the difference). This articles from history page and this talk seems to be controversial on these names. Please don't make new request again until you can provide 3 or more reliable sources that support the name you want be used  — Ammarpad (talk) 11:29, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
Please change Rasgulla to 'Rosogolla' under the section "Variations" and wherever relevant.
@Ansuman28 is very correct in his representation and identifying 'Rosogollas' under the section "Variations" in the article.
That the 'Rosogollas' should not be identified or called Rasgullas, rather it should be given proper name as per the reflexion in the GI status of "Banglar Rasogolla" as it is not Rasgulla. Besides the reasons, the "Banglar Rasogolla" commonly known as, and called Rosogolla, Rossogolla or Roshogolla, is different in colour, texture, taste, juice content and manufacturing process than the same of Rasgulla in whatever form. (The Bengalis tend to pronounce the dental sa as palatal sha and the sound a as o)[1].
In the entire proceedings before the Intellectual Property India [2] there is not a single mentioning of Rasgulla but Rosogolla and Rossogolla, legally establishing Banglar Rasogolla different than Rasgulla as we know it. Besides that, the names Banglar Rasogolla, Rosogolla, Rossogolla or Roshogolla are from Bengali[3] origin, while Rasgulla is from Hindi[4] origin, as such intellectual property right awarded to Banglar Rasogolla protects it from misrepresentation by Pahala rasgulla, Khiramohana or any such desserts under the name Rasgulla. Banglar Rasogolla, also called Rosogolla, Rossogolla and Roshogolla, is very different than the dessert Rasgulla as a whole in colour, texture, taste, juice content and manufacturing process.
Therefore, Rosogollas must be identified and represented as Rosogollas and not as Rasgulla.
Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 16:10, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Not done None of this is convincing and has already been addressed on the talk page. --regentspark (comment) 16:41, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
The remarks of rejection, "none of this is convincing" is questionable, requires competent and impartial intervention.
Present content of the Wikipedia article Rasgulla does not commensurate to an encyclopedic nature; instead of so long endeavours by many editors and administrators, said article more looks like a text fighting, so what went wrong with it?
Snthakur ( সৌমেন্দ্র নাথ ঠাকুর ) (talk) 18:23, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Kunal Chakrabarti, Shubhra Chakrabarti (22 August 2013). Historical Dictionary of the Bengalis. Scarecrow Press, Inc. pp. xiv–. ISBN 978-0-8108-8024-5.
  2. ^ "Examination Report of the dessert before the Geographical Indication Registry" (PDF). Retrieved 2017-11-17.
  3. ^ "Bengali in English". Retrieved 2017-11-17.
  4. ^ "Rasgulla in Oxford Dictionaries". Retrieved 2017-11-17.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 May 2018[edit]

Template:Culture of West Bengal Category:Geographical Indications in West Bengal বাক্যবাগীশ (talk) 07:28, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: Seeing that this edit request is part and parcel of a larger move by a single editor to place the same template across a wide range of pages, is something which does not inspire confidence in approving this edit request. I may be paranoid, but looking at the talk page here and the back and forth over the name of a dessert, makes me believe I may not be. My guess is, if this template is going to be added, it will only come after a long, long, discussion. .spintendo) 12:53, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

But the category- geographical indications of West Bengal is very needed. After a long long debate, West Bengal won the GI tag. So the Category is very needed. বাক্যবাগীশ (talk) 17:45, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Not sure what geographical indications means. Pinging @Dwaipayanc and Shyamsunder: for input.--regentspark (comment) 18:04, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
@RegentsPark: As the article says, "the GI Registry clarified that the tag was only for "Banglar Rasogolla", and should not be seen as a decision on the sweet's origin" - in other words, it was for a variant. Doug Weller talk 18:37, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
Thanks @Doug Weller:. I guess that means that the we shouldn't add West Bengal as a geographical indication for this product. Sorry বাক্যবাগীশ.--regentspark (comment) 23:29, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
GI certificate is nothing but the proved report of any thing, like any industrial thing. GI of Rasagolla proved that the origin of Rasagolla is in West Bengal. And lastly, the Category Category: Geographical Indications in West Bengal is made in wikipedia to listed the GI registred article of West Bengal. So, plese, it is my earnest request. Plese add the Category.বাক্যবাগীশ (talk) 22:00, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
No, because it doesn't say that. Why do you maintain it does? It says a variant is. Doug Weller talk 05:11, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

So, is Banglar Rasogolla can be a separate wikipedia article? বাক্যবাগীশ (talk) 07:04, 15 May 2018 (UTC)