Talk:Seal (emblem)

Seal History

Someone with a more solid historical grounding in contract law than I have should probably add a section on how seals acted as a substitute for consideration. It is my understanding that a seal on a document would previously substitute for consideration, and thus create an enforceable promise without there having to be any bargain for that promise. I have also been told that consideration is, itself, a replacement for the seal.

If anyone knows more about the history, please add it. I discovered that this article even existed here in a search for a clear answer. Thanks. Ari 06:14, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The NSA seal page includes the following text:

This image shows a seal. The use of such symbols is restricted in many countries. These restrictions are independent of the copyright status of the depiction shown here.

I came to this page expecting to find information on such restrictions, but didn't find anything

--Tom W.M. 07:33, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Request For Administrator Decision on Reinsertion of My External Link

In my former "Seals (device)" link Not All Online Authority Seals are Credible that used to be in the "Metaphorical Use" section where the "Good Housekeeping Seal" is noted (maybe that was the wrong sub-section?), my now deleted link has a link within to Ben Edleman's "Certifications and Site Trustworthiness" which says: "Some sites that are widely regarded as extremely trustworthy present such seals. But those same seals feature prominently on sites that seek to scam users -- whether through spyware infections, spam, or other unsavory practices." Ben's "Adverse Selection in Online "Trust" Certificates" has many valid points." I guess I was hoping that my utilization of Ben's reliable source, "significant reputation" ( http://www.benedelman.org/media/ ) by linking to him would be enough "authority" to have my post allowed. I feel this online consumer protection information adds substantive value to Wikipedia and it can not be found anywhere else on the page.

But, if I can't put a link to my blog post there, can I at least put an external link to Ben Edelman's Harvard document? Thank you. Brokerblogger 21:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Quoting notable sources on your site doesn't automatically make your site notable or an authority. Given Edleman's credentials, I doubt anyone would object to a direct link to his site. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 21:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Deleting the following

"The Koreans invented both paper and the printing press centuries before they were invented again in Europe."

because, according to corresponding wikipedia entries, the Koreans didn't invent paper and print press. 68.145.105.91 07:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

'Bearing arms'?

I deleated this phrase from the 'signet ring' section because it didn't seem to make any sense:

However, there has been a trend to assume arms in the British isles given the recent surge of popularity in genealogy, and so many wearers are actually not entitled to bear arms legally.

If anyone understands it and wants to rephrase it that would be good.

Tkos 23:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Phonetics

Could somebody please add how the word "signet" is pronounced? It would be most helpful. 14:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

bulla and lead

Bulla has no connection to the Latin for lead, which is plumbum, of course. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Karel D'huyvetters (talk • contribs) 13:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Faux Wax

In recent years there has been a welcome addition of faux wax this was created by wax-works for high speed production of wax seals used as embellishments. The original faux wax was created using a blend of Scottish wax and silicon bases. This new wax is now made by extrusion and can be heated using a low temperature glue gun.

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Recent move

Since someone recently decided to move this article without any discussion, I think we should discuss the most appropriate name for the article. The editor who moved it most likely did so because s/he felt that seal more often refers to the (usually) wax impression than the metal device that makes the impression. I would suggest that if Seal (device) insufficiently covers the topic, then so does Seal (impression), if not more so. If I had to come up with a better suggestion, I would say Seal (heraldry) indicates the context of the word without tying itself up in this sort of chicken-or-egg question. But I am open to other suggestions. Any thoughts, anyone? Wilhelm_meis (talk) 03:50, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Seal (heraldry) does not strike me as a good choice, because most seal impressions in modern times are made by government officials or ordinary private persons from eastern Asia (the latter group uses chops). I don't think members of either of these groups would think there is any connection between the impressions they make and heraldry. --Jc3s5h (talk) 04:02, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

The seal is viewed by many heraldic authorities as the original heraldic device, and the medieval coat of arms its direct descendant. Whether those who use them nowadays realize it or not is irrelevant to the fact that modern seals used by government authorities are classically heraldic in both their form and function (and usually in their appearance as well). The Asian seals used today also tie directly to the Asian forms of heraldry used in feudal times (see Category:Japanese heraldry for some of these forms). The connection to heraldry is so strong, I doubt anyone could successfully argue that seals are unheraldic. Be that as it may, I am honestly open to any better suggestions. Wilhelm_meis (talk) 04:21, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Mr. meis's argument should not apply to the title of an article. After a reader locates an article by reading the title, we can then educate the reader about the heraldic origin of seals, but if the reader never finds the article, he/she will not be educated. --Jc3s5h (talk) 17:38, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

And we have yet to see any other suggestions. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a sufficient argument. If seals are essentially heraldic in their nature, origin, and use, it doesn't matter if *someone* doesn't know it. Someone who knows absolutely nothing about heraldry may have just as much difficulty finding Lion (heraldry), Eagle (heraldry), Crown (heraldry), Star (heraldry), and Escutcheon (heraldry), but that doesn't mean these should all be renamed. Wilhelm_meis (talk) 23:05, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

The heraldic lion, eagle, etc., appear as they do because of their heraldic origin. Seals are made in the manner they are largely because making a die or rubber stamp is perceived as being a bit difficult and thus documents containing the impressions from dies or rubber stamps are perceived as being a bit more reliable than other documents. So modern seals are associated in the mind of modern readers more with document security than heraldry. --Jc3s5h (talk) 02:40, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

It occurred to me that "Seal (heraldry)" has enough going for it to at least be a redirect to this article, so I have created the redirect. --Jc3s5h (talk) 02:46, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Should we consider Seal (documents) or Seal (authentication) something like that? I would avoid Seal (security) because it sounds more like the plastic or metal seals stamped with a serial number that are used on government and other locks for tampering evidence. Wilhelm_meis (talk) 03:21, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Better yet, how about Seal (sigil)? Wilhelm_meis (talk) 03:56, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Seal (emblem)? —Tamfang (talk) 04:47, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Seal (symbol)? Wilhelm_meis (talk) 11:09, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Seal (device) would be my favorite, except that we'd have to disambiguate device. —Tamfang (talk) 01:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I can't see Seal (heraldry) working. I think (emblem) might be the best, but not perfect. (authentication) is a close second in my mind. I didn't really mind (device) or (impression) since I think that there's not going to be a perfect solution here. I think the best option might simply to be to go with one regardlesss of imperfection, and then work hard for a few mintues to make sure hatnotes, redirects etc. are set up correctly. You're more than welcome to buzz me if you need an admin, although obviously CSD exist for this purpose. - Jarry1250 ^{[ humorous – discuss ]} 11:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't Seal (sigillography) be better than Seal (heraldry)? — Kpalion^(talk) 15:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

"Sigillography" is such an obscure word that it is not listed in the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (3rd ed.). I think that makes it unacceptable as part of an article title. The article Sigillography is of necessity given that title; I sure hope there are suitable redirects and wikilinks from related articles. --Jc3s5h (talk) 16:23, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, "sigillography" is a bit off-center for an article title. At this point, I'm leaning toward Seal (emblem) or Seal (authentication). It seems to me that emblem is more an indication of form and authentication more an indication of function. I think Seal (emblem) is elegant in its simplicity and disambiguity. I think (emblem) works pretty well as a disambiguator in this instance. What do you guys think? Wilhelm_meis (talk) 02:00, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I like emblem better than authentication because the types of seals put on electric meters and water meters to prevent tampering could fall under the latter. --Jc3s5h (talk) 03:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

These seals differ from this one only by function, but not by idea. And not especially by function, too: it also server to preserve the authenticity ("prevent tampering", as you say). Timurite (talk) 04:17, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Note to ALL
I added the preview on the seal category: Category:Seals, noting that the "Seal" is the 'picture'. The seal DEVICE is not needed today, since a "Seal"-picture, can be made on a PC, the Computer. ....So it is NOT surprising to me that somebody "changed the name". The first seals were "Impression seals", (in pottery, clay, etc, (Mesopotamian balls?) the most common then became the "Cylinder seal", unless they were first. They might have been first, since the story presented, depended on the size of the seal, and its intricateness. I don't care what name is appropriate, but seal (device) is GONE, and wax is only a late development in Human History. The first were clay, and pots. (Or Stone seals, engraved, inscriptions; It now dawns on me that all the cartouches of the Pharaohs are actually a form of the Seal (impression), or Seal (emblem).) I personally am "Charmed" by the Luwian hieroglyphs "King seals. Those are the ones I would personally like to see an article on. (From 111-114-(July26-2009)Degree, (northwest SonoranDesert ArizonaUSA)... --Mmcannis (talk) 05:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry Mmcannis, but you are mistaken about the device not being needed today due to PCs. Just one example: Florida land surveyors are required to use "an impression-type metal seal" for paper and Mylar documents. Surveyors are allowed to use a registered electronic seal when documents are transmitted electronically.http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0472/SEC025.HTM&Title=->2004->Ch0472->Section%20025#0472.025

As an additional example, look at any state's requirements for obtaining a driver's license or ID card. You will most likely find that one of the documents accepted for proof of age and lawful presence in the United States is a government-issued birth certificate with a raised seal. --Jc3s5h (talk) 12:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Obviously correct. I was just explaining what I helped cause to happen by adding the info to the Seal Category. Its (the seal) origins may have been for authentication, or ownership, but as Cylinder seals, or for example Minoan Seals, they immediately became used sociologically, and iconographically. ...They became a means for personal, and societal expression. (And thank goodness). The [seal (devices)] could still be a good article; In fact the original un-Renamed article has all the type references. But they are all "Modern", post 1000 BC; and like I suggest, even the cartouche of the pharaoh is a form of "seal (impression/emblem/authentication)". The issue is obviously very complex since the "seal" can now be made graphically in mind space on a computer.
As for "heraldy" and "wax" they are all post-origins of the seal, and probably could/should have separate developed articles. (This "Integration/Differentiation", and MERGE stuff can get out of hand.) The complexity of the "Seal" shows the huge topic this really is. (I recenty 'Had' to get a new drivers license,) (and don't forget the hologram, or microchip-type seals.... (comments from HotArizonaUSA)..Mmcannis (talk) 15:03, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page moved. —harej (talk) (cool!) 00:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

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Seal (impression) → Seal (emblem) — This page was moved without discussion, and subsequent discussion points toward a consensus to move to Seal (emblem). - Wilhelm_meis (talk) 05:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support as nom. As I said above, I think (emblem) pretty well covers the topic without becoming too obscure to be a fitting article name disambiguator. I also think it's a better fit than (device) or (impression). Wilhelm_meis (talk) 05:49, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support. The word "emblem" alludes to both the die and the impression. This is an improvement over "impression" which ignores the die. "Seal (impression)" should become a redirect to "Seal (emblem)". --Jc3s5h (talk) 14:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support. The present title makes me think of a comedian doing an impression of a marine mammal. The proposed title is clearer and, apparently, more correct as well. Jafeluv (talk) 11:07, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
• Support. The proposed title is better than the current one for reasons given by Jc3s5h. — Kpalion^(talk) 10:15, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. After looking into the dictionary.com, I see that a general word would be "symbol", not "emblem". Therefore I suggest the move to seal (symbol). Timurite (talk) 04:06, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• My reason for the move was because the old title, Seal (device), was not specific enough: Seal (mechanical) is a devise (and a poor title, BTW, too). I fail to see why "emblem" covers the die while "impression" not. As for the move without discussion, last time I edited, this was a wiki, isn't it? If you are not happy, just put forth your opinion, no need to point fingers, as if I did something outrageous. Timurite (talk) 03:59, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Dictionary.com can be useful as a quick reference, but it is not the most reliable source and certainly has little bearing on this discussion. As to 'putting forth our opinions', that is precisely what has been done. You don't have to get defensive just because some other editors thought the move was hasty. We could have requested that it be moved back, but we didn't. I don't disagree that it should have been moved, just where it got moved to. Do you have a specific reason for objecting to Seal (emblem)? I don't see how Seal (symbol) works any better than Seal (emblem). An emblem (coming from Middle English, from Latin emblēma, inlaid or mosaic work) is a design that is representative of someone or something, whereas a symbol (coming from Middle English, from Latin symbolum, from Greek sýmbolon, sign) is a sign (which may be visual, written, or immaterial) representing something else. A symbol need not be an emblem, just anything - anything - that represents something else. I think symbol is too broad a disambiguator. Wilhelm_meis (talk) 08:16, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. I've removed the parallel move requests below. If you have an opinion on what the article's title should be, this section is the place to discuss it. Jafeluv (talk) 11:02, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Multiple-choice survey

I suggest to repeat a survey, with multiple-choice, rather than binary, poll:

1. - emblem (title: seal (emblem))
2. - symbol (title: seal (symbol))
3. - authentication (title:seal (authentication))

• My choices: #3 authentication - first choice, #2 (symbol) - second choice. Timurite (talk) 23:28, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion 2

Recapitulating my position from talk above and from disrespectful deletion of my other comments under formal pretext: I don't think that "emblem" is universal enough to correctly cover the subject. After looking into the dictionary.com, I see that a general word would be "symbol", not "emblem". Therefore I suggest the move to seal (symbol). Still better title is Seal (authentification). All seals discussed in this article have the same purpose: authentification of the authorship/ownership/correctness/vlidity. Unlike other suggestions, this one does not give an impression of restriction to result (impression) or tool (die): it addresses the most distinctive trait:the ultimate purpose. Timurite (talk) 23:28, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry for removing your comments. I didn't mean any disrespect by it, I was just trying to keep the discussion in one place. I really should have moved your comments to the discussion section instead of removing them, though. Jafeluv (talk) 23:43, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Criollo" signet point of order

From the "Signet rings" section: "In Latin America, it is also traditional for the descendants of the old criollo aristocratic families to wear signet rings in the Spanish tradition. [Italics mine]" There needs to be a credible citation for this claim, as I can certainly attest that this is not a common usage and has not been since my grandfather's time (he was born in 1847).75.21.111.206 (talk) 08:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Deleted it as challenged and uncited content. me_and 13:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Seal (authentication and device)

I am kind-of surprised that the first introduction section DOES NOT explain, that we are talking about:

1.--The Seal (device), and

2.--The Seal (authentication); the resultant Picture, the "Seal" is the sanctioned Authentication

The Seal-(device) is simply the means that was used to make the Authentication. And, however, not all seals were just for authentication. The first cylinder seals were probably also an art form... (there are even wonderful examples of picasso-esque styles, throughout all timeperiods, even back into the 3rd and 4th millennium BC).

So, why not choose a name that attempts to explain the dual usage?..... Seal (authentication and device)

The Seal (emblem) NAME, shows the King-ly, or state-sponsorship Usage, starting probably in the 3rd millennium BC., post cylinder seals, and impression seals; (even the Ancient Egypt cartouche should be discussed as the usage, of the Seal (emblem)).) ------Mmcannis (talk) 16:24, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't really understand the previous post, nor what specifically what the complain is with the current lead. In any case, I oppose changing the name because authentication is not the right word. Authentication refers to the act that someone performed in which the person decided that a document was authentic and created permanent visual evidence of the authentication, such as signing the document and/or creating a seal impression on the document. Jc3s5h (talk) 16:58, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

(RESTATEMENT)--The Seal (device), which at one time was an article, redirects here, to Seal (emblem).... and it is partially why all the cartouches of the pharaohs, (or other users of a cartouche), are also historically, a "seal (emblem)", and an 'authentication', (at least of timeperiod, if not official usage).
The items in this aricle, are mostly "authentications"-(i.e. Ownerships---(please understand, that a Letter, with a wax seal is Ownership, (the Egyptians did it with clay seals back into the 3rd mill BC-or 2nd-(King Tutankhamun's tomb DOOR-1 Room))), through long timeperiods, for many levels in society; that is why the first INTRODUCTION, section should explain the A. Emblem (the symbol, of the owner, (and HIS/HER authorship)), and B. the authentication-USAGE for the EMBLEM...
postage stamps for some countries state "Postage and Revenue", as (being) for the same use as "authorization", (of a TAX,....for: govt, state, town, agency, etc.), or just stamp postage
(I do realize the complexity of the subject of "Seal (emblem), it started possibly, with the clay tokens of Mesopotamia, or the Mohenjo-Daro script-pieces.
(I just searched the Seal (emblem) article; cylinder seals are referenced, but the origin of the first stamp seals are not.)Mmcannis (talk) 03:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I just looked at Emblem and Category:Symbols. So, I think the name is better than what I thought. But the whole article is about devices. I assume there could be a good list put in some place... (Minoan seal-stones would be someplace in the list-?)
(the alternative article name could be: Seal (emblem & device), and I see that Seal (insignia) is what can be produced by these "seal (emblem)" devices----Mmcannis (talk) 04:13, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I think some of your terminology is inappropriate for this article. A seal impression may indicate purely authentication, as in those states that allow a notary to sign and seal a document without adding any notarial certificate. It may inicate agreement with the terms of a document, as in the private seal impression of a person on a land deed. A seal impression may indicate, loosely, "ownership" of the ideas expressed in a document, but does not necessarily indicate ownership of the physical document. For example, Mmcannis could probably go into an antique shop and become the physical owner of a sealed document that he/she has no relationship to at all, except for physical ownership. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:49, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

This is just quibbling. The lead clearly is inadequate & poorly-written, though the rest of the article seems a reasonable start. Johnbod (talk) 16:52, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Security

I am interested to know about security and legal considerations for seals, i.e. how difficult they are to "forge", extent of verification procedures actually used, laws regarding use of someone else's seal, joint use of a seal, verification in court, etc. In particular, I'm interested in a comparison with signatures (pros/cons). Ken6en (talk) 02:28, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Most Western tradition seals made in wax?

I have requested a quotation] because while Jenkinson might say that impressions in wax are the most common, I doubt the context of that statement indicates the claim applies to modern Western seals. Also, there are a wide variety of emblems impressed on media in the modern world that might or might not be considered seals. I suspect that the most common Western seals are made with ink on paper, and the next most common are embossed on paper. Of course, the sheer volume of modern commerce probably causes whatever is considered a seal in the modern Western context to vastly outnumber all pre-modern seal impressions. Jc3s5h (talk) 21:28, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Fair point. Jenkinson (and all the other literature I'm aware of) is basically talking about "historic" seals, i.e. up to about the mid C19, which I have to admit is also my mindset. I've reworded slightly and added a sentence at the end of the paragraph which I hope deals with the issue. GrindtXX (talk) 20:11, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, the revisions look good to me. Jc3s5h (talk) 20:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

This article uses American English

I have concluded this article uses American English, based on the addition of the word "watercolor" in this edit from 2005. Jc3s5h (talk) 12:26, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

German article

I recently found on academia this extremely interesting article. Unfortunately it is written in German. I frankly didn't understand everything but it seemed to me that it should be metioned here. Someone with good German knowledge should exploit the article: https://www.academia.edu/8334985/Das_alteste_Papstsiegel_Ursprung_und_Aussage_eines_Bildmotivs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.56.77.51 (talk) 08:09, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Meter seal link

Please add link to electric/gas/water meter seals article. Jidanni (talk) 15:27, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Meter seal is a redirect to Security seal, which is already listed under "See also". I (for one) would have no objection to that link being replaced by a brief mention integrated into the body of the article, if you want to be bold. GrindtXX (talk) 17:40, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Proposed merge

Cocket is merely a dicdef for a particular kind of seal. BD2412 T 21:15, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Support per norm. 2001:8003:9008:1301:4DDA:7F55:44D5:1957 (talk) 14:33, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 14:41, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Stamps of Germany (DDR) 1988, MiNr Zusammendruck 3156-3159.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:22, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Name (yet again)

The current title, Seal (emblem), conjures up an image of some graphics, not of a physical imprint or tool. An unsuspecting reader would look here for a Presidential Seal of Turkey, not a signet ring. I have read the discussions above, but 10+ years seems to be a sufficient time for consensus to change, so let's try again. Few proposals along the lines previously suggested: Seal (mark) (similar to Seal (authentication), as the purpose of seal is to add a mark), Seal (tool and imprint), Seal (die and mark). Викидим (talk) 19:02, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I thoroughly agree this needs revisiting: "emblem" is a really bad disambiguator. Part of the problem is that we're really trying to encompass three different concepts: (a) the physical implement (tool, matrix); (b) the impression; and (c) the graphic design (emblem), which – as in your Presidential Seal of Turkey example – may not even exist in a "physical" manifestation. Having said that, I'm not terribly happy with your "tool and imprint" suggestion, or any similar "X and Y", because they look a bit clunky, and will just attract further attempts to streamline them. Personally, I quite like Seal (authentication), because, broadly speaking, authentication is the primary purpose of any seal (whether matrix, impression or emblem). I also wonder – slightly counter-intuitively – about reverting to Seal (device), because the word "device" is itself ambiguous: in colloquial English it means a tool or implement, but in heraldry (and therefore sigillography) it means a symbol or emblem. GrindtXX (talk) 20:46, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

I like your "device" idea: Oxford dictionary lists also "a ... method, or trick with a particular aim", so it covers the authentication part, too (in a very broad and thus cheeky way, definitely, but then nobody says we can have WP:NOFUN here). Викидим (talk) 15:21, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Two weeks without opposing opinions, initiating a move below using yours (and mine) arguments. --Викидим (talk) 23:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

No luck this time, too. So good luck to the next guy who will try in 2034. Викидим (talk) 07:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 13 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 05:57, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

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Seal (emblem) → Seal (device) – The current title, Seal (emblem), conjures up an image of some graphics, not of a physical imprint or tool (which are the most important meanings here). An unsuspecting reader would look here for a Presidential Seal of Turkey, not a signet ring. We are really trying to encompass three different closely related concepts: (a) the physical implement (tool, matrix, die); (b) the impression; and (c) the graphic design (emblem), which may not even exist in a "physical" manifestation. Reverting name to Seal (device) will work, because the word "device" is itself ambiguous: in colloquial English it means a tool or implement, but in heraldry (and therefore sigillography) it means a symbol or emblem. One more meaning, "a method, or trick with a particular aim" covers the purpose of the seal: authentication. The last informal proposal to move (Talk:Seal (emblem)#Name (yet again)) was unopposed, but due to previous discussions (Talk:Seal (emblem)#Recent move, Talk:Seal (emblem)#Requested move) I am initiating a potentially contested move. Викидим (talk) 23:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 05:37, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support. The way it is currently titled, I was expecting the article to be about furry sea mammals used in coats of arms or logos. Device is a clear improvement. Walrasiad (talk) 02:44, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
• Strong oppose "seal (device)" should redirect to Seal (mechanical); it is the most common seal device that most people will ever encounter, since it is everywhere, in every car, in all plumbing, etc. -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 10:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Almost certainly not. People commonly come across lots of legal documents (contracts, deeds, identifications, affidavits, etc.) which have to be sealed. Besides, there's already a lot of pages on Wikipedia which link to "Seal (device)" - that is, to this meaning. Those links would all be misdirected. Walrasiad (talk) 12:40, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

We better create a separate article for "Seal (device)". There are also a lot of pages on Wikipedia which link to "Seal (emblem)". 2001:8003:9100:2C01:6DD5:204E:A88A:90D8 (talk) 06:20, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Dear colleague, we are discussing a particular move proposal here, and I would love to understand your arguments better. In particular, (1) Do you have a better new name for the stamp/imprint/authentication/emblem combination? (2) Do you think that the current "(emblem)" disambiguation is adequate? Викидим (talk) 08:22, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

"device" is a very bad name, so this article cannot move there. wikt:en:device clearly shows that this is not a disambiguator that is specific to the use found in this article. Thus the disambiguator is ambiguous, and should not be used per our own article naming standards WP:AT / WP:PRECISE, since it is not precise enough to identify the topic of the article. This is a device used for provenance, identification and authentication, and is impressed. So something along those lines might be better. -- 65.92.247.66 (talk) 06:42, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

The funny thing is etymologically, the verb "to seal" for mechanically sealing something is actually derived from this seal device for impressing. How about "Seal (stamping device)"? "Seal (stamp)" has unfortunate postal connotations. Perhaps go for another verb, like "Seal (mark)" or "Seal (sign)"? Meh. Don't really like them either. Walrasiad (talk) 22:58, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Let's face it: there is no perfect choice offered (and none will be forthcoming) due to the nature of the problem (three things in one article). IMHO, this is not a good reason to choose even worse solutions, like (1) keeping the current utterly confusing name that pretty much ignores the article content (mostly about material aspects of the topic), or (2) splitting the article into three, which will simplify the naming (except for the "seal that is used to make an imprint", but even this will get easier), but will force a lot of unnecessary duplication. I was not as much requesting a particular new name as asking to replace the particularly bad old name with something that is better (which is pretty much any option suggested on this page throughout the years). Arguments of the type "renaming into X is bad, because ..." are currently used to essentially keep the current title, when, notably, nobody is trying to argue for it. That's why I repeat my suggestion to evaluate a hypothetical X not on its standalone merits, but in comparison with "Seal (emblem)". Let's not consider this a quest for a perfect name, but just as an attempt to improve the text. It would be therefore great if arguments against the move would include a brief statement on the current title being better than the proposed one(s), or at least similar in the level of confusion generated. Викидим (talk) 23:29, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support - To counter the point raised by the IP user 65.92.247.66, I note that 403 articles and 7 templates point to Seal (device) as a redirect to this article, while only 136 articles and no templates link to Seal (mechanical). This clearly shows that "device" is understood to mean the subject of this article and not a mechanical seal. The word "emblem" is also generally understood to mean a wide variety of pictographic representations that may or may not exist in a physical form, such as the emblems of the Order of the Arrow or Chevrolet. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 16:53, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support Makes far more sense.★Trekker (talk) 23:07, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose As per the IP user (65.92.247.66). 2001:8003:9100:2C01:6DD5:204E:A88A:90D8 (talk) 06:16, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Given Seal (mechanical) is also a device. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:44, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. The title "Seal (device)" is ambiguous. Emblem just sounds better in this context anyway. Jessintime (talk) 15:35, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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