Talk:Sophie Lefèvre

Requested Move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 17:32, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

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Sophie Lefevre → Sophie Lefèvre – There was no consensus regarding the use of diacritics, so this article should use the diacritics until a consensus is reached. Not to mention that diacritics are very important for French related articles. Gabinho^>:) 06:29, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

• Keep at Sophie Lefevre - Common name English usage places her name at Sophie Lefevre with no diacritics, which is what we are supposed to use. What French wikipedias use is of no consequence and I don't police French related articles here on this English wikipedia, not being versed in that knowledge. The International Tennis Federation (ITF) and the Women's Tennis Association (WTA) official website bios place the name at Sophie Lefevre and she is notable for being a tennis player. Most searches place the name without diacritics also. Wiki rules say common English and that's where it is now at. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:51, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

• Keep at Sophie Lefevre - per Fyunck(click). Absconded Northerner (talk) 07:58, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

• Move to Sophie Lefèvre - per this is an Encyclopdia and the correct form of any name is an encyclopedic fact. (Gabinho^>:) 08:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC))
  • Yes, which is why the "correct" (i.e., native) form is listed at the very beginning of our article. The title of an article, on the other hand, is a completely different issue. Powers ^T 14:40, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• Keep at Sophie Lefevre - The common English name of the subject is Sophie Lefevre. Sir Armbrust ^{Talk to me} _Contribs 09:34, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

• Note - This is one of several articles that Fyunck(click) recently moved and then tampered with the redirect to prevent non-admin reversion. Less than a month ago at AN/I, this behaviour was found to be a type of gaming of the system and another anti-diacritic editor got pagemove-banned. Prolog (talk) 16:01, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

  Gees... which was already explained at another location as following the lead of some others. No idea of the AN/I though I do now and won't add extra comments again. As also explained the pro-diacritic followers have a built-in non-movability of pages because of a wiki-approved bot. Now how fair is that? Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support for the usual reasons: Accuracy (the lack of diacritics in foreign names is considered a grammatical error or misspelling by several reliable sources), consistency (standard practice with personal names in this language), the recommendations of style guides such as The Chicago Manual of Style, the practice in other English-language encyclopedias such as Britannica, harmlessness (the diacriticless spelling is deducible from the proper name, but not vice versa), pronunciation guidance, informativeness (our primary purpose as an encyclopedia is to educate the readers by providing accurate, complete and trustworthy information) and respect (people usually want their name spelled right and knowingly misspelling a living person's name is both unencyclopedic and unethical). Prolog (talk) 16:01, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
  • It's not a misspelling; it's a transliteration. Powers ^T 00:33, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
    • Transliteration means conversion of the letters of one script into those of another. English and French both use the Latin alphabet. Prolog (talk) 16:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
      • Yes, I used the closest available word. The point remains that removing diacritics is not the same as misspelling. Powers ^T 17:13, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
        • While most sources simply stress the importance of retaining diacritics, some do explicitly say that omitting the marks from foreign words and names leads to a misspelling. Prolog (talk) 22:20, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
          • "Most sources" indeed? Yet it remains extremely common to do so in English-language media. Nothing that widespread can reasonably be considered "unethical". Powers ^T 23:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
            • You can check the recommendations of several notable sources here. Many unencyclopedic practices are common in the English-language media (recentism, censorship of "naughty" words and images, one-sentence paragraphs, overcapitalization...). The higher quality the source, the more likely it is to use the appropriate diacritical marks. Prolog (talk) 20:13, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
• Support move. HandsomeFella (talk) 19:08, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Wrong result?

I may be wrong, but looking at the above two attempts to restore the article it appears the article was created with the French spelling and then moved to accentless without discussion. In such a case the article could have been immediately restored to French spelling and no consensus would rest on the status quo. Am I mistaken? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:20, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:59, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Sophie Lefevre → Sophie Lefèvre – This spelling (with a grave accent) is unquestionable in French, like Alizé Cornet (acute accent) or Gaël Monfils (diaeresis) are. All French personalities on Wikipedia keep their original French spelling (with accents, diaeresis, cedillas...). Why would this one be different? Vinz57 (talk) 13:31, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

• Support move - Accents and diacritics should be kept for all articles. This is in an encyclopedia. (Gabinho^>:) 18:50, 19 February 2012 (UTC))
• KEEP - This was just RFD'd a short while ago and failed. Are we going to start RFDing the same articles on a bi-annual basis now? What a stew that will create. Tennis Project guidelines are to use "common English spelling as found on ATP and WTA websites. Otherwise use press releases, grand slam websites, other tournament sites, books" and this name is spelled Sophie Lefevre in all of them. This is just another attempt to highjack the English language and overturn a past administrative decision. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:05, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose, per ESPN and New York Times. Removing diacritics is the convention of English-language sports writing. Even the New York Times, which otherwise allows French-language diacritics, follows this convention, as you can see in the link. As for the box score sites, they remove diacritics just because that's their style. I certainly hope no one really wants to follow ATP -- they use all-caps. Kauffner (talk) 01:39, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Keeping diacritics of foreign tennis players (and basically of all foreign personalities) is also the convention on Wikipedia, all the players keep theirs (except for Djokovic). As for this player, as you say removing diacritics is the convention of English-language sports writing (ie Gael Monfils instead of Gaël, Michael Llodra instead of Michaël, Alize Cornet instead of Alizé), so it's impossible to find a English language article with the correct spelling (furthermore the player is not really famous which doesn't help). It's even difficult to find some articles in French, although there are some, including from La Dépêche du Midi, Le Parisien, or Eurosport Vinz57 (talk) 10:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
    • Where did you get this fib? It is not true at all as there are lots and lots of tennis players and hockey players here at wikipedia that are at their non-diacritic names. It is the convention at this English language wikipdedia to use the best English sources and authorities we can find and to apply that to our titles. That's what we use at Tennis Project and it's why we have them in our guidelines. It is the convention of sports writers because it is the convention of the English language to drop diacritics. They are not taught and they are not in the English alphabet. It's why we don't spell them hôtel and général... we don't have any use in English. But whether they are useless or not, Tennis project doesn't care...we look to official things like the WTA, ITF, Fed Cup, Wimbledon, the NY Times, ESPN, BBC, ABC News or Sydney Herald, to give us some sort of official English language sources to go by. And they say it's Sophie Lefevre. Fyunck(click) (talk) 11:07, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
      • It is the convention of the English language to drop diacritics. They are not taught and they are not in the English alphabet. It's why we don't spell them hôtel and général... we don't have any use in English. What? Hotel and general have been existed in English language for centuries, that's why their diacritics were dropped (and the French spellings weren't even fixed when these words were introduced in English). But nowadays the words with French origins all keep their diacritics: déjà vu, maître d'hôtel, café, cliché, née, à la carte... Need more? List of French words and phrases used by English speakers, Category:French loanwords. Vinz57 (talk) 14:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
        • Interesting... where I live, and I just talked to two grade school teachers in California to double check, we spell them deja vu, cafe, cliche, nee and a la carte. I'd not seen maître d'hôtel before but we do use maitre d'. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:49, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment – I think we should not allow RMs on articles that don't cite sources. If someone wants such an article moved, the least they could do is to first cite a source that calls it what they want they want to title the article. Otherwise, lacking sources, we might as well just PROD or AfD instead of arguing. Dicklyon (talk) 06:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
• Comment can you prove that the accent is found in the majority of English language sources? WP:COMMONNAME , WP:Use English have not been deprecated. Diacritics can only be used if the majority of WP:UE WP:RS WP:UCN sources use it. If none of them use it, then a diacritics title is WP:OR. As this is a pro tennis player who has played in the Grand Slam events, there should be a sufficiency of English Language sources to prove English usage. If there is no sufficiently primary English langauge usage, your argument might have weight, but accessibility&usability would suggest not using diacritics in such a case, as screenreaders screw up accents. If there are not enough English language sources, then it might be better to use the original French, though it'd have to survive a consensus discussion (such as this one). 70.24.251.71 (talk) 08:03, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
• Comment No need to move this one. Sophie Lefevre is clearly the commonly used name on the WTA site and in the English media coverage about her. MakeSense64 (talk) 09:04, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Sophie Lefevre is clearly the commonly used name on the WTA site and in the English media coverage about her. It's the same case for all the French players with diacritics in their names (Gaël Monfils is always spelled Gael in the English media coverage but that doesn't make it right, Alizé Cornet is spelled Alize, Aravane Rezaï is spelled Rezai, Michaël Llodra is spelled Michael), and these spellings with diacritics are not discussed on Wikipedia. I've put the links of French articles showing that the right spelling is Lefèvre, so why should this player be handled differently than the aforementioned players? Vinz57 (talk) 10:26, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
    • Cool... you are making our point for us... English sources and Tennis sources spell the name using the English alphabet, and we use those sources when we create articles. Wiki is based on sourcing. Those other names really should be changed also but we can't get to the thousands of players all at once. Many player articles do exist that are spelled in English, not a foreign letters, despite what you elude to. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:50, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
      • Many player articles do exist that are spelled in English, not a foreign letters. Hum no, really no. Only Djokovic has its diacritics dropped. Other players keep their diacritics whatever language their name comes from : Serbian, German, Czech, Spanish, Swedish, Polish... (Ana Ivanović, Julia Görges, Radek Štěpánek, Feliciano López, Robin Söderling, Agnieszka Radwańska). And if you really think that all these players should have their diacritics dropped, I can't do anything for you because no way a majority of users will agree with you, especially for famous players from France or Germany where removing a diacritic can totally change the pronunciation of the word . Vinz57 (talk) 22:34, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
• Support move to correct spelling per WP:COMMONNAME, key sentence: "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources.", and as this is an encyclopedia. HandsomeFella (talk) 11:27, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

WP:STAGENAME in lede sentence

The case has been made that Tennis players become like Sting (singer) or Pink (singer) when playing under ITF rules. But how can we have this WP:STAGENAME argument in the lede:

"Sophie Lefèvre (Toulouse, February 23, 1981) and known professionally as Sophie Lefevre, is a professional French tennis player. References1.^ LaDépêche.fr Sophie Lefèvre a musclé sa préparation 5 March 2003 ...

Surely doesn't playing professionally in France under one's own correctly spelled name qualify as being known professionally? In ictu oculi (talk) 09:20, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps in the French wikipedia...not in the English wikipedia where per the English sources she is universally known without diacritics. We need to show all the alternate names in the lead. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:54, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

You mistake my point, is she not presumably known professionally by her own name in her own country? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:22, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

The current format causes the opening to focus on an insider issue, a dispute likely to be of interest primarily to editors. I can't believe many readers care whether the subject registered her name with diacritics or without. Kauffner (talk) 12:07, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's certainly of no interest to me for one. This BLP was created 23 September 2010‎ by Gabinho at Sophie Lefèvre and moved without discussion to Sophie Lefevre, unfortunately user Gabinho apparently got caught in the trap of doing a RM back to status quo - when he should have reverted first and left the onus to the mover to propose the RM. As it is we have a wrong result above. Plus I don't think I am aware of any French BLPs on Wikipedia that don't have correct French spelling. Almost all English users are capable with è. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:22, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

French surname Lefèvre

• Alain Lefèvre, French-Canadian pianist
• André Lefèvre (Scouting), French scouting notable
• Didier Lefèvre, French photojournalist
• Edouard Lefèvre, French entomologist
• Géo Lefèvre, French cyclist, originator of the idea for the Tour de France.
• Guy Lefèvre de la Boderie (1541–1598), French orientalist, Bible scholar and poet
• Jacques Lefèvre d'Étaples (1455–1536), French theologian and humanist
• Jacques Lefèvre (fencer)
• Jérôme Lefèvre, art director and writer
• Laurent Lefèvre, French cyclist
• Lefèvre family, tapestry weavers
• Pascal Lefèvre, French javelin thrower
• Raymond Lefèvre, French orchestra conductor
• Théo Lefèvre, 39th Prime Minister of Belgium.
• Xavier Lefèvre, Swiss clarinetist and composer

In ictu oculi (talk) 15:04, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Fyunck: diff 6 April 2012‎ Fyunck(click) ... per sources and consensus. (TW)) (undo)

This summary is wrong, since (i) The only decent source in the article, gives her name as French. (ii) The consensus on WP is that additions to BLP ledes: as in Sophie Lefèvre (born February 23, 1981 in Toulouse) and known professionally as Sophie Lefevre,.... is disruptive. Not one other editor in all the dozens of edit disputes you have caused has supported you in this wording. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:44, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Lovely... "I have caused"... You have pretty much caused all of them. And you are also wrong in editor support. Many supported no diacritics at all and common name first. I was willing to compromise on fist name listing while you haven't compromised an inch. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:32, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Fyunck, please name one editor who supports your Sophie Lefèvre (born February 23, 1981 in Toulouse) and known professionally as Sophie Lefevre, additions to 100+ BLPs over the past month? You were asked politely by several editors at Talk:Radomír Vašek, Talk:Błażej Koniusz, and various other stubs among the 100+ BLPs affected, to please stop adding this line. It is WP:OR, and contradicted by the sources in the articles such as Fédération Française de Tennis etc., and these arguments, such as WP:STAGENAME, or cyrillic alphabet names, or your own family history in emigrating to UK which you keep bringing up, have no bearing whatsoever on those who are simply playing at Wimbledon, not surrendering their French/Polish/Czech/whatever citizenship. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:41, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I still cannot believe that we are having this discussion. I think Sophie Lefèvre is the only French player on the English Wikipedia to have her name without accents. That accent is there with a precise purpose: that of correct pronunciation. And that line with and known professionally as Sophie Lefevre, is like... what is that? (Gabinho^>:) 10:14, 15 April 2012 (UTC))

I can't believe we are having this discussion either. We just went through it a few weeks ago and here we go again. I guess there is no limit to how many times and how often we do RM's. I'll take note if this one sticks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:33, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Paul Feret - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 02:01, 15 April 2012 (UTC)