Talk:Tumanishvili

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Georgia (country) Low‑importance

	Georgia (country) portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Georgia (country), a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Georgia and Georgians on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Georgia (country)Wikipedia:WikiProject Georgia (country)Template:WikiProject Georgia (country)Georgia (country) articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Dance: Ballet

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Dance, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Dance and Dance-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DanceWikipedia:WikiProject DanceTemplate:WikiProject DanceDance articles

This article is supported by WikiProject Ballet.

WikiProject Ballet To-do list:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Article requests : See the Image requests page. Articles: Choo Chiat Goh, Vladimir Bourmeister, Columbia City Ballet, Michael Cook (ballet), Peter Schaufuss, Cyril Atanassoff, Post-structuralist ballet
Cleanup : Ballet Fantastique, NYCB/cast lists, re-write the whole Russian ballet article
Copyedit : Rasta Thomas, Ballet (marked as in need of immediate attention)
Disambiguation : Moscow Ballet
Expand : French ballet, Balanchine method, Cecchetti method, Original Ballet Russe, Royal Swedish Ballet, Bloch (dancewear), Turnout (ballet), Opera ballet, English ballet, Italian ballet
NPOV : Capezio
Stubs : Pas de deux, ballet tutu, Nicolai Legat, John Neumeier, Miami City Ballet, more
Unreferenced : Miami City Ballet, Oklahoma City Ballet
Wikify : Moscow Ballet (United States), Oklahoma City Ballet (in need of sections and references)
Other : Review recent changes to ballet articles.

Toumanian vs. Tumanishvili

As User:Kober pointed out, please note that the Armenian side did not belong to the Georgian princely family, that is why the article mentions Tumanishvili as a "Georgian princely family" with roots in Armenia. Georgian in this case is not necessarily ethnicity, even as many Tumanishvili do consider themselves as such. For this reason, please discuss such additions as they are changing the meaning of the text.--Andriabenia (talk) 19:21, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you believe that the "Armenian side" did not belong to the Georgian princely family? It is a fact mentioned at least in two reliable sources. The sources are cited, read them and discuss with your own sources, if you have. if no, then nothing to discuss. Rast5 (talk) 20:12, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The wording "Georgian" in this case does not have an exclusively ethnic connotation. Rather "Georgian princely family" means that they carried a Georgian title and are called "Georgian" for that reason, not to mention that after centuries of living in Georgia they would be considered naturalized Georgians by any standards. After all, why would they change their Armenian last name to the Georgian ending if they did not acknowledge at least Georgian nationality, if not ethnicity. You fail to address any of these issues. Georgian noble family with roots in Armenia is a more accurate wording.--Andriabenia (talk) 20:54, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You're completely not right. There were Georgian noble families f.e. in Russia, there were Armenian noble families in Georgia, and there are Russian noble families in France. It is normal. And what means 'more accurate wording' if all the relaible sources call this family Georgian-Armenian (and one of them, the most reliable, calls it just Armenian)? do you have sources calling Toumanovs a Georgian noble family with roots in Armenia? the sources write what they write, no need for misinterpretation. Rast5 (talk) 21:23, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We do not have only the sources that you hand pick. The sources that where in place before you scrambled things support Tumanishvilis' position as a Georgian princely family. Because there are some other sources that think their Armenian roots are noteworthy enough - despite the fact that centuries passed since their initial immigration to Georgia - the wording "Georgian princely family with Armenian roots" represents a compromise between various sources.

Secondly, I assure you that there are no Russian or Georgian princely families overseas who lived there since the middle ages, modified their last names to match local customs, and still consider themselves Russian or Georgian.

Lastly, I doubt your insistence on mentioning Armenia has anything to do with Tumanishvilis. Based on your your edits to page Bavaria, I have come to believe that you are on a campaign to bring Armenia and Armenians to prominence on wikipedia which, while not expressly forbidden, is a bad practice given your disregard for all the other sides.--Andriabenia (talk) 21:44, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus, so by default the page is not moved. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:56, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tumanishvili → Tumanyan – So also requesting that the Tumanyan article be merged here. Per WP:COMMONNAME, as the most famous member of the family is Hovhannes Tumanyan. In addition, nearly ten times as many books have Tumanyan (9,760) instead of Tumanishvili (1,870). Also notice that the google result for Tumanyan is 1,400,000, compared to only 53,400. Tumanyan has had two cities named after as well as a park. Also there are no articles of people with the Georgian surname, so it is just plain confusing in general. Tumanyan is an Armenian surname and should be spelled that way. Relisted. BDD (talk) 23:00, 7 April 2014 (UTC) --Steverci (talk) 20:17, 31 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose — The Tumanishvili and the Tumanyan, to which the Armenian poet Hovhannes Tumanyan belonged, are two different families, with only remote, if any, genealogical links to each other. Furthermore, the Armenian surname Tumanyan was also used by absolutely different, genealogically distinct families. So, comparison of Google hits is irrelevant here. "Also there are no articles of people with the Georgian surname, so it is just plain confusing in general" — this is not a valid reason for move. This is not a disambig page but an article about the noble family of Georgia. If you want to create an article about the Armenian Tumanyan, you are welcome to do that. Why to destroy this article to that end? --Kober^Talk 05:24, 1 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment — Both surnames are the same with different suffixes. The question is why should we use the Georgian suffix, when this is an Armenian family? Seems to be violating WP:POVTITLE. For example, House of Glücksburg retains its German linguistics despite being based in non-German countries. Likewise, the two Tumanyan families in Georgia, the Liparitids and the T’umanids, have Armenian royalty suffixs, similar to the Rubenids and the Hethumids. I do not see how Google search is irrelevant. If the Armenian spelling is more common than the Georgian one, than it should be used. I am proposing that this article be merged with the Tumanyan article, with Tumanyan as the title. Also, the source using the Georgian suffixes is on Byzantine studies. A Byzantine scholar wouldn't have any knowledge on this subject. --Steverci (talk) 16:48, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any reliable sources to support your claims? The Tumanishvili have been in Georgia since the 15th century and the surname is still common in the country. The pre-15th century Armenian roots don't make the family Armenian. If the Armenian branch of the family retained its purported original Armenian surname, this does not mean that we cannot have an article on the Georgian line. For your knowledge, the surname Tumanyan bore by the famous Armenian poet have no connection with the Tumanishvili family or their Armenian ancestors. The surname "Tumanyan" is shared by many Armenian families that are not directly genealogically linked to each other. I'd ask you to provide sources for your claims that all the families bearing the surname Tumanyan stem from the same ancestor(s) and share their origin with the Georgian Tumanishvili. I would also ask you to clarify since when the dynastic suffix "-id" has become Armenian. --Kober^Talk 18:09, 2 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's common because they are the same descendants as Tumanyan only more adapted to the country. There is no "Georgian line", they are the same family, just adapted members of it. Are you aware that a Georgian surname ending with "-ishvili" means that the family is Armenian? That is further reason to use the proper title here. If it's an Armenian family, why Georgize it and confuse people? According to the book already cited on the page, "Journal of the Society for Armenian Studies", Toumaniani and Toumanishvili simply differentiate from which church the family joined. So it is impossible to name the article after the latter when the former has just as much reason to have the title. So we should go the neutral route and name the article Tumanyan, which refers to both branches. I never said "-id" is exclusively Armenian, but it was used by the royal families in Cilicia, which the Tumanyans are descended from. I don't know of an ethnic Georgian family that uses this root. Even the Liparitids are Armenians too. The title shouldn't be in Georgian tense if members are using Armenian tense. --Steverci (talk) 16:44, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Are you aware that a Georgian surname ending with "-ishvili" means that the family is Armenian?" lool. No, I am not aware of it. Definitely not. :) Can I ask you to provide sources for your claims? --Kober^Talk 16:57, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's a common way of adapting Armenian names. Melikishvili, Khojaminasishvili, Saakishvili, are examples. But in this case we know the family is Armenian. You did not respond to why it would make sense to use Toumanishvili over Toumaniani. Tumanyan is also still a very common name. It should be used for neutrality. --Steverci (talk) 14:18, 9 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.