Talk:Tupac Shakur/Archive 8

Archive 5

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Archive 7

Archive 8

Archive 9

Middle School

According to https://www.baltimoresun.com/food-drink/bal-tupac-shakur-baltimore-school-for-arts-hall-of-fame-induction-story.html Tupac attended Roland Park Elementary/Middle School in 8th grade. Can this please be added to this page in the early life section before the mention of his high schools. The article says "Though Shakur attended Roland Park Middle School for eighth grade and Paul Laurence Dunbar High School as a freshman, he had heard about the BSA from peers, said Donald Hicken, the longtime head of the school's theater department who retired last year." — Preceding unsigned comment added by ClaybourneAmans (talk • contribs) 01:44, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Done – Aranya (talk) 21:44, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Add to page Tess Hunter (talk) 12:01, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Isn’t he alive?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Because of the 14 rounds that were fired into the car, none hit Suge Knight. No one saw the shooting occur, or reported seeing the white Cadillac in the area. Also in his later years, he referred to himself as Makaveli, which is a direct reference to Machiavelli, a 15th century prince whisperer who wrote “To fool one’s enemies, fake ones death”. Suge Knight even said “Why do you think nobody’s been arrested if they the one that killed Tupac? Because Tupac ain’t dead. If he was dead, they’d be arresting those dudes for murder. You know he’s on some island smoking a Cuban cigar. Rivirian King of the Rails (talk) 12:44, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

If you had several reliable sources for this theory then it might be worth discussion (as a theory), although I doubt even that. In the absence of said sources, wonderful though your personal conjecture might be, please see WP:NOTAFORUM. Thanks. -- Begoon 12:53, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

But there’s a picture of him at a rally Rivirian King of the Rails (talk) 11:55, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Was the rally on some island, and was he smoking a Cuban cigar at the rally? -- Begoon 12:10, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hello — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.103.229.54 (talk) 13:37, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 25 May 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nominator. Interstellarity (talk) 21:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC) Interstellarity (talk) 21:21, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

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Tupac Shakur → 2Pac – His stage name was 2Pac and most people know him as 2Pac anyway. His music was released under “2Pac” too. Theibflame (talk) 19:18, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:16, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

• @Theibflame: How well known is he, under either name? Also, page Tupac Shakur has over 5000 edits and thus likely will need a steward to perform the move. (And, pages Tupac Shakur and 2Pac are WP:Parallel histories.) Anthony Appleyard (talk) 21:22, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
• @Anthony Appleyard: About the 43rd bestselling musical artist of all time. (And for the record, sources that say that credit him as 2Pac instead of Tupac Shakur.)
• Oppose. Nearly every source in the article uses Tupac. Calidum 15:51, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. He is known by both names, and I think the current title is preferable to stylized stage name. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. The current title is his clear common name in reliable sources. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:17, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose The current title is his common name. Dimadick (talk) 19:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
• Ok i see everyone’s points. How do I end this disscussion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theibflame (talk • contribs) 00:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

  @Theibflame: I will close the discussion. Interstellarity (talk) 21:20, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2020

CHECK MORE ON 2PACS SONGS Hothiphopmp3 (talk) 12:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --TheImaCow (talk) 12:38, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Ahh forget it Vanicius jr (talk) 17:06, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2020

People have reason to believe that he was the god of rap and with his rivalry with his former friend Notorious BIG these two were hip hop's biggest names Vanicius jr (talk) 17:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Why does Makaveli take me here

How is it associated with Tupac in either way? Why is searching Makaveli redirecting me here? Metric Supporter 89 (talk) 16:32, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

If you're still wondering, Makaveli was a stage name Tupac sometimes used. If you're looking for the Italian writer Machiavelli, a link at the very top of the article should take you there (may not be visible on mobile). Jojopeanut (talk) 14:19, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Referenced by first or last name?

There's inconsistency with whether he is called Tupac or Shakur throughout the article. For example, the introduction refers to him as Shakur, but Personal Life switches to calling him Tupac. The Rising Star section even refers to him as 2Pac. The Stardom section uses all three names in different sentences. Should these all be switched to the surname Shakur as the professional formality, or to Tupac since he is so widely referred to by that name? Jojopeanut (talk) 14:32, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 June 2020

Years active- 1988-1996 129.205.113.71 (talk) 17:21, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The current sources state "Shakur got his first break when he became a roadie and backup dancer for the rap group Digital Underground in 1990". If you believe it should be 1988, please provide a source. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 18:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2020

Please change "In 2008, the play Holler If Ya Hear Me, based on Tupac lyrics, played on Broadway..." to "In 2014, the play Holler If Ya Hear Me, based on Tupac lyrics, played on Broadway..." in 'Legacy and Remembrance' section, 'Film and stage' subsection.

Supadupa837 (talk) 18:47, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

References

 Done See diff. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 20:10, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Tupac Amaru vs. Tupac Amaru II

The existing reference in the "Personal Life" section -- whose author does not quote anyone -- presumably refers to the latter (Condorcanqui) with "revolutionary", but this contemporary New Yorker article quotes Afeni Shakur directly: He was named for "the last Inca chief to be tortured, brutalized, and murdered by Spanish conquistadores . . . a warrior," Afeni says. 2607:FEA8:BFA0:BD0:B5C4:3D3B:70EA:90D0 (talk) 03:21, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

2pac s music

2pac was a rapper who wasnt using any metaphors or wordplays in his music.Most of his songs,he talked about his death — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mpita mbewe (talk • contribs) 20:09, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

RS needed for section "Shooting two policemen"

The currently cited RS for the section say nothing about the policemen being "drunk" or having "stolen guns"—are there any RS for these claims? The shooting was widely covered, but I can't find any. If not, they ought to be removed. Thanks! Elle Kpyros (talk) 15:41, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2020

Change "Some of Tupac's song lyrics suggest a belief in a god,[54] perhaps in the manner of deism.[55] Apparently not believing in Heaven and Hell as typified, he perhaps believed in karma.[56]"

to

Written before his death, in his 1995 tune "So Many Tears", that "I shall not fear no man but God, though I walk through the valley of death..Please God walk with me...and take me to Heaven..Is there heaven for a G? Remember me..I know my destiny is Hell, where did I fail?..Please Lord forgive me for my sins, cause here I come..beggin' for the Lord to let me in to Heaven's door." DocRock1007 (talk) 09:49, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. You're suggesting removing sourced material in favor of a snippet of lyrics with no context. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 14:24, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2020

In context,

after

"Some of Tupac's song lyrics suggest a belief in a god,[54] perhaps in the manner of deism.[55] Apparently not believing in Heaven and Hell as typified, he perhaps believed in karma.[56]"

add following sentence to clarify above otherwise misleading second-hand citations, in lieu of this biography subject's own words, citing his writing as a primary-source reference, in context:

As to Tupac's believe in "a god", we may hear him in his own words, written before his death, in his 1995 tune "So Many Tears", that "I shall not fear no man but God, though I walk through the valley of death..Please God walk with me...and take me to Heaven..Is there heaven for a G? Remember me..I know my destiny is Hell, where did I fail?..Please Lord forgive me for my sins, cause here I come..beggin' for the Lord to let me in to Heaven's door." DocRock1007 (talk) 00:41, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 02:25, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Huh?

What is "prevent involuntary reactions injurious" supposed to mean? Seven Pandas (talk) 14:14, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Probably something like "prevent further injury from involuntary reactions" such as swelling but whatever it meant, it failed verification and I therefore removed it. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:58, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Deletion Request

Of the number of errors detected in the little that I've read on this page, there is a major deletion that could take place while not detracting from the article.

It relates to the section "Shootings of Shakur - November 1994".

The deletion should take place from after citation [144], which appears at the end of the sentence, "In the lobby, three men initiated robbery at gunpoint, whereupon Tupac, resisting, was shot."

It is fine for the section to end there. The sentence following makes no sense, stating that "shooting was the main motive [of the shooting]".

An alternative to deleting this sentence is substituting the word "shooting" for an actual motive.

The paragraph following that sentence is equally dubious, lacking dates and implying time frames and dates that don't seem to measure up. It also seems irrelevant to the topic. There is citation of what seems to be some very general "this day in history" triva page that doesn't actually back up what is stated in the paragraph.

It speaks about February 6 1995:

"In 1995, rapper Tupac Shakur was sentenced to one-and-a-half to four-and-a-half years in prison on a sexual assault charge."

More details about the situation can be found via the following, more credible source: https://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/08/nyregion/rapper-faces-prison-term-for-sex-abuse.html

Still, there is no mention of the Quad studio shootings 3 MONTHS (not days) earlier or turning up to court in bandages and a wheelchair.

Apart from the allegations and charges not being related to the November 1994 shootings (unless this can be supported and conveyed correctly) the paragraph is poorly written, almost suspiciously. In it, the year 1993 is written as "19993" and the word "convinced" is used instead of "convicted".

Please do the needful.

Here is a copy of the whole section in question as it appears in the article as of May 19 2020:

"On November 29, 1994, while in New York, Tupac was recording verses for a mixtape of Ron G.[135] Tupac was repeatedly distracted by his beeper.[135] It was music manager James "Jimmy Henchman" Rosemond, reportedly offering $7 000 for Tupac to stop by Quad Studios, in Times Square, that very night to record a verse for his client Little Shawn.[87][135] Tupac was leery, but, needing cash to offset steepening legal costs, took the gig. Tupac arrived with Stretch and another or two. In the lobby, three men initiated robbery at gunpoint, whereupon Tupac, resisting, was shot.[144] Shakur speculated that shooting was the main motive.[145][146]

Three hours after surgery, against doctor's advice, Shakur checked out of Bellevue Hospital Center. The next day, in a Manhattan courtroom bandaged in a wheelchair, he received the jury's verdict in his ongoing criminal trial for a November 19993 incident in his hotel room. Convinced of three counts of molestation, he was acquitted of six other charges, including sodomy and gun charges.[147]"" NotPedanticReally (talk) 19:14, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

TUPAC'S SEXAUL ASSAULT CONVICTION--- More context is needed here. Tupac was acquitted of the most serious charges and was found guilty of "1st Degree Sexual Assault", a Class D (Felony), which is basically forcible touching. It should also be noted that none of the other 3 men's trials were carried out and any charges that were filed were dropped. It's also important to note that Tupac maintained his innocence. Also, the 1 1/2-4 year sentence, by most legal standards, was excessive. Also one of his most notable speeches came when he addressed the judge. Why is this page protected? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.187.101.240 (talk) 16:10, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

"best rapper ever alive"

Please remove the story about the "best rapper alive" mention. The female politician is not an expert about rap, and not an expert about music.
Also, she is not an expert about "West Coast girls" (or that many of those girls might be unsure which artists died 24 years ago).
I don't think there are enough arguments for why that story should be in an encyclopedia. Regards! 89.8.177.111 (talk) 08:15, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Tupac Shakur

Should include "greatest rapper ever". Gishe95 (talk) 12:46, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

pac for life

rather die young than old and broke Djquincy (talk) 23:35, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2021

He has sold more than 100 million records worldwide. 2600:387:C:6E1B:0:0:0:C (talk) 06:40, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. His certified sales figure is 58 million, which means 100 million isn't possible. Binksternet (talk) 06:50, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Crooks

Where does his birth surname come from if it was neither his mother's nor his father's? If this info is available would be good to have it in the article. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 10:35, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Where and When was Tupac Shakur shot?

After the brawl event that had happened between Bruce Seldon and Mike Tyson, Tupac Shakur had went to a nightclub called 662 with Marion "Suge" Knight which was owned by him. Shakur had disclosed to his named girlfriend Kidada Jones, and his involvement in the Anderson fight, that was previously had promised to return to her after entering to the MGM Grand and having her stay in a vehicle. Shakur left with Knight after changing into different clothes. At 11:15pm, a white, four-door, late model Cadillac vehicle had pulled up to Knight's right side of the passenger seat. The shooter had seated at the back of the Cadillac, rolled down the window and rapidly fired gunshots from a .40 S&W Glock 22 at Shakur's BMW. Shakur was hit four times – twice in the chest, once in the arm, and once in the thigh. One of the bullets went into Shakur's right lung. Knight was hit in the head by a fragmentation which is known as a bomb. We have lost the greatest rapper and artist in America. [!-- Template:Unsigned -->— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyle sims13 (talk • contribs) 02:54, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Wrong article. Details on the death are covered in Murder of Tupac Shakur. Dimadick (talk) 07:53, 16 June 2021 (UTC) I believe his death was inspired in LA, His death was caried out in Atlanta i believe.

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2021 (2)

suggested changes below this line, preferably in a "change X to Y" format. Other editors need to know what to add or remove. Blank edit requests will be declined. -->

protected/state update requested Bare automatic89 (talk) 23:42, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Criminal and civil cases

This section of the article has a lot of inaccuracies.

Shooting of police officers

The two officers were allegedly harassing a black motorist and the cops were the first to fire at Tupac according to some accounts. Why is there no mention of all this information? Also, they were on drugs and their guns were stolen from the evidence room.

Assault of Allen Hughes

Tupac was convicted of assaulting Allen Hughes, but Hughes himself stated that he fired Shakur because "he was bigger than the film". Also, Shakur was best friends with the Hughes Brothers and they directed some of his early music videos, so it's doubtful he would assault Allen for no apparent reason.

Sexual assault charges

Tupac was charged with sexual assault of a woman in his hotel room. There are multiple inconsistencies in her story. She at first claimed Shakur left before the assault, but then she said that she was held by Shakur while gangster Haitian Jack and a man named Trevor raped her. If Tupac didn't actually participate on the assault, why was he and his manager (who also didn't do anything) the only ones convicted? Also, James Rosemont and Haitian Jack (who allegedly raped Jackson) were also allegedly responsible for Tupac's 1994 shooting and the woman is believed to have been associated with these two before the assault. Why is there no mention of this on the article?

Ayanna Jackson also was interviewed by VladTV. Most people accused Jackson of lying and it's true her interview was very confusing to say the least. For example, she claimed she wore different clothing than the clothes she wore on a photography alleged to have been taken the same day the assault occured. Why is the possibility of Shakur being innocent not mentioned on the article. It was even depicted on his biopic All Eyez on Me.

What do you think? Dadatyttyt (talk) 10:14, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

2pac grave

I think we should add 2pac’s grave Wikilover126 (talk) 14:50, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2021

I think we should add and often cited as one of the greatest rappers of all time. 2.98.221.49 (talk) 18:37, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:51, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

what about the request is unclear? FMSky (talk) 08:59, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2021

needs a death date in top line. Article makes it appear he is still alive. Also show erroneous dates artist active through 2015, when he had been dead for decades. 68.47.26.69 (talk) 15:04, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done Vandalism reverted ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:11, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Jokretzmer.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 04:29, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Academic appraisal

in the academic evaluation, other academic opinions of great scholars of the world should be added Ballerin11 (talk) 01:09, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Description bio and artistry

Someone needs to expound on his legacy a bit more please Add things like Artistry, vocal style and why is it that when some calls him greatest, it gets removed?

E.g. He was one of the leading figures of Gangsta rap in the 1990s. He is widely considered one of the greatest… Confunxion (talk) 08:37, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Why not not "one of the most influential artists"?

Pac's influence is beyond rap, his worldwide influence is gigantic. Ballataclassica12 (talk) 16:21, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2022

201.188.133.205 (talk) 04:31, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

It seems that he is alive, sources;

 Not done: Those sources do not say he is alive. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:58, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2022

I think the C. DeLores Tucker lawsuit should be removed as this was filed against the estate in 1997 after Pac passed away. Source Aaron106 (talk) 09:50, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:26, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Namesake?

The media has recently confirmed that a woman from Florida has the SAME name as Tupac. This is FALSE. Source 2600:6C40:5400:55A6:E19A:DACD:1BF0:637F (talk) 02:27, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

References

Misogyny

This article whitewashes and dismisses his rape and general misogyny. Ironically, contributing to the 'martyr' reputation. Bettepage13 (talk) 00:20, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

There must be addition

WESSSSIDE (talk) 07:51, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

There must be Addition WESSSSIDE (talk) 07:52, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 07:56, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Murales Tupac.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:23, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

== Missing Albums == Tupac did not write Dear Moma and all eyes on me, hit ‘‘em up, a ghost writer was paid to write songs. She was 20 year old young lady who grew up in the projects.

There are missing albums, including the album "1 in 21": https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/165007159851?epid=15050157118&hash=item266b31722b:g:yqEAAOSwuYZhELBZ&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4IUELH56STzmIEt7Crv739EArzjHFvMiXLVjZLmZp1su35fGLjWgOzZVsVF1%2BDC8p%2BhrOHEr9FJOhhtJe6dZHJv45Hgt6xGOiv1x9t8Q7SJ7s8eGespn1UciNXGeOX5xZNMUk%2FC1yZaCFoIK%2Byme7GSkj9dekS7vaQSBg%2BMDUtSKZcRUxHMFVa1%2FWFIe5Eytcc2jkLSiBzbe3jDYc9G5hzhSTCGunr8nno7cuiSZTG5CZd0Fi9Tjc6h1LGV71leojtFa9bSWNPpeP%2BJICFIQFEKX%2FBWxPSmgSlFscwNC9kYu%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR-S0-P61YQ Http204 (talk) 11:03, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Tupac released another album today and that missing too but I don't know if it would really count because its an extension to another one LDimno (talk) 16:21, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Reading During His Career, Marijuana, and Alcohol

This sentence in the "Sexual assault case, prison sentence, appeal and release" section "While imprisoned, he began reading again, which he had been unable to do as his career progressed due to his marijuana and alcohol habits." has no reference. There is a reference for the following sentence, but that does not reference his reading habits. Unless someone has a specific reference, I think this sentence is a broad generalization that should be removed. It is very likely that sentence is false and seemingly impossible to prove that he did not read at all while his career progressed. Charles Jeffrey Danoff (talk) 14:50, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

"Tupac (rapper)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Tupac (rapper) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 March 11 § Tupac (rapper) until a consensus is reached. ErceÇamurOfficial (talk) 08:43, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Revise this entry please

Could somebody with access revise the writing to sound more like an adult and not a sixth grader? 2601:643:8D00:970:7157:87D5:E33D:B9DD (talk) 04:17, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

If you have specific suggestions for improvement, please feel free to make an edit request. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 04:25, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2023

Hi can I edit this, there I a great deal missing about this brilliant artist. Esdra123 (talk) 10:27, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 12:55, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

"2Pca" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect 2Pca has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 July 17 § 2Pca until a consensus is reached. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:41, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Adding balance

The page has too much emphasis on his “positive” messages, but it’s a well known fact that he was also criticised for many of his lyrics (violence, misogyny, etc). Ziggy Wiggy Figgy (talk) 14:16, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

False narratives

The wiki on 2 pac claims that “he abandoned introspective lyrics for gangster rap” when he released all eyes on me. This is false in 1994 2 years before all eyez literally titled Thug Life. And the songs on there are definitely gangster rap. What the article should say is he has always blended soft introspective songs with gangster rap Janfazio83 (talk) 20:58, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 August 2023

He is the most influential and successful rappers of all time not one of 110.175.69.98 (talk) 08:41, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

unsourced --FMSky (talk) 08:42, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Article editing

This article is needs MUCH editing, as it contains numerous grammatical errors. I do appreciate the effort, but this MAN deserves the ultimate effort of his accolades being written. No disrespect 2601:147:8500:2810:8D08:4E11:CFB3:2A17 (talk) 02:15, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Sex offender

he wasn't only a rapper, but also a sex offender, it should be noted in the top description 2A06:C701:4904:3E00:A0B5:915A:624A:2B09 (talk) 23:15, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Agree that something about his criminal convictions is appropriate. Riposte97 (talk) 00:47, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Image

@Sami0015 The new image is in the public domain. The old one is listed under "fair use" and is protected by copyright. Per WP:NFCI, Non-free images that reasonably could be replaced by free content images are not suitable for Wikipedia. Bremps... 21:38, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Reactions at the time of his death

I'm disappointed by the lack of reactions by famous names when he died. What did B.I.G. say? Dre? Cube? It could cover a whole section. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 21:55, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguation tags

Why are we using (Tupac Shakur song) and (Tupac Shakur album) disambiguation tags for songs and albums that were released under his stage name "2Pac?" This was discussed at RM in 2010 [1], but this goes against naming convention. See WP:ALBUMDAB/WP:SONGDAB, which states that the disambiguation tag includes the performers "as they are credited on the album cover." 162 etc. (talk) 23:02, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2024

Hi, i would like to update this because i feel like there are some things left out about Tupac Shakur that i would like to add. Thank You Ezradaniels (talk) 20:05, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Tollens (talk) 22:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Wrong Date

Wikipedia describes that he was in Vegas on the 7th but he couldn't have been shot on the 7th and died on the 13th, he would have to have been shot on the 12th of September 114.23.207.191 (talk) 04:24, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

He lingered a bit in the hospital before passing. Bremps... 02:47, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

2PAC DIED 6 DAYZ AFTER THE SHOOTING. Timothyzic (talk) 09:29, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

CHANGE THAT UGLY PHOTO PLEASE!!!!

HEY, HI. PLEASE CHANGE THIS PHOTO, THIS IS NOT A PHOTO FROM HIS DRIVE LICENCE, IT'S PHOTO FROM PRISON, FROM THE BEGINNING OF HIS SENTENCE IN CLINTON CF. I THINK TUPAC SHAKUR AS AN ICON AND THE GREAT ARTIST DESERVES FOR BETTER PIC OF HIM ON THE MAIN THINGS SUCH AS WIKIPEDIA. REGARDS FROM POLAND Timothyzic (talk) 10:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Activism

Why did you remove the part that Tupac is considered a symbol of struggle and activism against inequality? Tupac, in addition to being an influential rapper, was also a very influential activist. Pier1999 (talk) 21:16, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I believe you are correct. I have reverted based on the discussion here:

• User_talk:Binksternet#Tupac_Page_on_Wikipedia (permalink to discussion as of 02:38, 21 March 2024)

I believe that discussion should be moved here. Please feel free to move my comments here.--David Tornheim (talk) 03:01, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

ok, but it should be written on the page that he was an activist and it should be rewritten that he is considered a symbol of struggle and activism against inequalities Pier1999 (talk) 03:04, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

That's where you'll need WP:RS. If you have time, I suggest reading all of the article (Tupac Shakur) and as much of the sources from the article that are relevant. Then provide your sources--especially if you have others not already cited. (Of course, no one expects you to read even close to all 297 sources of the article.)

Of course, you always just provide the sources that support the claim, like you were doing on Binksternet's page. I suggest you spend a little time looking at some article talk pages (for other very different subjects) to see how editors argue for or against the inclusion of material based on the WP:RS. Sometimes you will see long lists of sources with quotes. If you can't find one, I can point to one. The better organized such a list is, the more effective and convincing it is. Long discussions--like the one on Binksternet's page--are much harder to read and often run into the problem of TL;DR. A list of sources with key quotes is more effective. The more and stronger the sources, the better. Hope that helps.--David Tornheim (talk) 03:22, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-pictures/tupac-shakur-wake-me-when-im-free-exhibit-1293618/ "TUPAC SHAKUR WAS more than just one of the most influential rappers of the Nineties. He was also a poet and activist who became one of his era’s most revolutionary voices." Article of Rolling Stones Pier1999 (talk) 11:03, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

https://mcac.maryland.gov/2023/10/alleged-former-gang-member-indicted-in-rapper-tupak-shakur-murder/ "Shakur was widely considered one of the most influential and successful rappers of all time and]among the best-selling music artists, having sold more than 75 million records worldwide.

Much of Shakur’s music has been noted for addressing contemporary social issues that plagued inner cities, and he is considered a symbol of activism against inequality." Other source Pier1999 (talk) 21:13, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

What needs to be done to ensure that it is written on the page that is a symbol of struggle and activism against inequalities? I cited the sources Pier1999 (talk) 23:25, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the WP:RS. Keep up the good work!

Like I suggested before, include all the WP:RS that says it. I believe you left off WP:RS mentioned at User_talk:Binksternet#Tupac_Page_on_Wikipedia, including one that I provided. Above I suggested making a table with quotes.

I don't know if you are able to edit the article directly. You could try a WP:BOLD edit and see if others revert it. If they do, DON'T revert back, please. (See WP:BRD). I suggest avoiding any edit to the WP:LEDE until you have more experience on Wikipedia.

And again, I suggest you look at other articles that you are less invested in. I also suggest you look at the top of my User:David_Tornheim, and click on the section "Advice for new editors"--I wrote it primarily for editors who are amped up to the point of accusing other editors of bad faith editing and or feeling attacked for trying to put in their preferred version. You're not there, and I hope you never get there. It's easier to understand what happens when you are not involved in the subject under dispute. Watching others helps you see what NOT to do. You are not alone in trying to add (or delete) something to an article that has push-back. Patience is critical. Diligently reviewing, posting and discussing the best WP:RS is always helpful.

I'm not ready to add anything yet, as I am not sufficiently familiar with the article to even know where to add it and how to phrase it. I'm hoping an editor more familiar with the article sees this and considers adding it. Again, be patient. If it is unambiguously in the WP:RS, which I believe it is, it will end up in the article per WP:NPOV, which says:

All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.

NPOV is Wikipedia policy.

--David Tornheim (talk) 00:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

ok, but it won't let me edit Tupac's page, it says edits are closed to avoid vandalism. Pier1999 (talk) 00:44, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Go to the Wikipedia:Teahouse and tell them that you would like to edit the article and that you are not going to vandalize it. Ask if there is an appropriate place to ask an WP:admin for permission. You can WP:ping me there by typing {{u|David Tornheim}} in the wikitext and saying something along the lines that I sent you there, and I will vouch for you. --David Tornheim (talk) 01:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Answered at Teahouse: Pier1999 will be auto-confirmed late Sat or Sunday latest, and then able to edit the article directly. David notMD (talk) 10:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Disagreement

@Pier1999 and ActionHeroesAreReal: Both of you are new editors. Rather than reverting each other like this [2][3][4][5], please discuss here or in another section of the talk page. You'll want another editor (or more) to break the tie. I'm not willing to weigh in at this point. You can try WP:3O, or test your source at WP:RS/N, or maybe you both can come to an agreement. Please review WP:BRD--it's not policy but it's well worth following. --David Tornheim (talk) 20:02, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

The original sentence I removed was a direct copy from the cited source (Mcac.maryland.gov). This was a clear copyright violation, that’s why I removed it. I also removed the second edit by @Pier1999 which, again, was mostly a direct copy, and this time with an unsourced statement that Tupac’s music was noted for “political issues”. This is not mentioned anywhere in the source. @Pier1999 then changed the sentence to “Shakur symbolizes activism against inequality.” This vague statement doesn’t even deserve to be in the lead; it’s not explored anywhere else in the article, and only one source states this. It seems like puffery. ActionHeroesAreReal (talk) 20:18, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@ActionHeroesAreReal: Thanks for discussing. I would support including that text as a quote in the WP:BODY, but, at this point, not in the WP:LEDE. Have you seen the section above (#Activism)? Pier1999 does have sources. I agree with you that the WP:LEDE should only mention activism to the extent it is mentioned in the WP:BODY. If it is not in the WP:BODY, then it should not be mentioned in the WP:LEDE at all. I suggested Pier1999 add material to the article using the above sources.--David Tornheim (talk) 20:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes I agree it shouldn’t be in the lede. As for him being an “activist”, this was not a notable occupation of his. Most reliable sources refer to him as a rapper, not an “activist”. It shouldn’t be in the lede either. ActionHeroesAreReal (talk) 20:52, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I also have academic sources that demonstrate that he was also influential in activism. I also contacted academic scholars directly, I don't write things on the page at random. I'm very knowledgeable about Tupac's life Pier1999 (talk) 20:56, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I’m not saying that there aren’t sources that state he was an “activist”. The source you cited also refers to him as a “poet”, “actor”, etc. Why don’t you add those occupations also? Because they aren't his notable occupations. Most reliable sources refer to him as a rapper because that’s what he’s best known for, not a poet, actor, or activist. ActionHeroesAreReal (talk) 21:11, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

We have plenty of articles that list the various occupations and skills of people. We usually include those other skills rather than keeping them out. Consider Noam Chomsky. --David Tornheim (talk) 23:57, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

However, to put him at the top I used a professional Rolling Stones source, I have other academic sources that talk about him as an activist. So what should I do? Pier1999 (talk) 21:12, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

It’s still not a notable occupation of his. He was only an “activist” within the scope of being a rapper; not an activist per se. What did he publish as an “activist”??? What did he publish as a “poet”? Rather, he’s best known for being a rapper. He was also better known for being an actor than an activist or poet. Britannica, for example, refers to him as a rapper and actor (https://www.britannica.com/biography/Tupac-Shakur). I would have no objection to actor being mentioned alongside rapper, but activist or poet is just not notable enough. ActionHeroesAreReal (talk) 22:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I quote you this article from Temple University:" Pier1999 (talk) 23:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

I quote you this article from Temple University:"https://temple-news.com/discussing-consciousness-message-hip-hop/" Pier1999 (talk) 23:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

"One of Aaron Smith’s favorite songs is Tupac Shakur’s “Ambitionz Az A Ridah,” because of its bold beat, empowering lyrics and purpose.

“Tupac was an artist with a message,” said Smith, an African American studies professor. “An activist, not the gangster that people portray him as.”

Smith teaches a class in the Department of Africology and African American Studies called Tupac Shakur and the Hip Hop Revolution. The class is dedicated to studying Tupac’s message, the direction of his life and his symbolic significance as an artist and an activist." Pier1999 (talk) 23:35, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

• Britannica--which is only marginally reliable because it is a tertiary source rather a secondary source--does, in fact, mention activism within the lyrics: "[Tupac] appeared in Poetic Justice, opposite Janet Jackson, and he released his second album...[which]...did not stray far from the activist lyricism of his debut....". That source supports claims of activism. --David Tornheim (talk) 00:08, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/21/books/review/tupac-shakur-authorized-biography-staci-robinson.html "“Tupac Shakur” is a touching, empathetic portrait of a friend. Even familiar stories achieve new intimacy at closer range. And small moments help clarify longstanding narratives, coloring in the outlines of this well-known tale of the actor-rapper-activist who died at 25." This is an article from the NY Times and it talks about the book that was written by Staci Robinson about Tupac. The only biography authorizes Pier1999 (talk) 01:54, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/148529.Tupac_Shakur_ "Acclaimed for his writings on Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr., as well as his passionate defense of black youth culture, Michael Eric Dyson has emerged as the leading African American intellectual of his generation. Now Dyson turns his attention to one of the most enigmatic figures of the past decade: the slain hip-hop artist Tupac Shakur.Five years after his murder, Tupac remains a widely celebrated, deeply loved, and profoundly controversial icon among black youth. Viewed by many as a "black James Dean," he has attained cult status partly due to the posthumous release of several albums, three movies, and a collection of poetry. But Tupac endures primarily because of the devotion of his loyal followers, who have immortalized him through tributes, letters, songs, and celebrations, many in cyberspace.Dyson helps us to understand why a twenty-five-year-old rapper, activist, poet, actor." This article is about the book written by Michael Eric Dyson about Tupac, Dyson is an academic scholar and professor in the College of Arts and Science and Divinity School at Vanderbilt University Pier1999 (talk) 01:58, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

https://temple-news.com/discussing-consciousness-message-hip-hop/ "One of Aaron Smith’s favorite songs is Tupac Shakur’s “Ambitionz Az A Ridah,” because of its bold beat, empowering lyrics and purpose.

“Tupac was an artist with a message,” said Smith, an African American studies professor. “An activist, not the gangster that people portray him as.”

Smith teaches a class in the Department of Africology and African American Studies called Tupac Shakur and the Hip Hop Revolution. The class is dedicated to studying Tupac’s message, the direction of his life and his symbolic significance as an artist and an activist." It's an article from Temple University, it describes a course that was held at Temple University on Tupac. Pier1999 (talk) 23:49, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

You referenced the work of one person, Aaron Smith, an African-American whose book “Tupac and the Hip-Hop Revolution” (which the lecture at the University was based on) was published by CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform, a self-publishing service. So it’s not even a reliable source to begin with, as per Wiki guidelines. And he claims, because of ONE song (Ambitionz Az A Ridah), which contains profanity every other sentence, Tupac should be considered an “activist”… What a joke. Again, it’s only his view and his book is not even a reliable source to begin with. Like I said, Tupac cannot be considered described as an activist in the lede, as it wasn’t a notable occupation of his. ActionHeroesAreReal (talk) 00:56, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Aaron Smith actually Is a Professor of African American Studies and works at Temple University. Pier1999 (talk) 01:10, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

It also says in the article that he is a professor of African American studies. But have you read it? I also linked the part for you Pier1999 (talk) 01:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

you can also look up his curriculum, he's not just an "African American", he's a professor of African American studies who teaches at Temple University. His opinion is valid, we are talking about those who have studied African-American history. Pier1999 (talk) 01:17, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

His opinion alone is not sufficient to be lede material. Nowhere close. And even he is is an established expert on the topic cited, it’s still an exceptional claim he is making. As per Wiki guidelines, exceptional claims require exceptional sources. His claim is not notable. Most sources, as I have already mentioned, do not refer to him as an “activist”, but rapper. ActionHeroesAreReal (talk) 01:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

That's not correct. Pier1999 provided quite a few sources--however, s/he should really bring them here rather than leave them--inappropriate on an editors talk page. I have asked a few times that the sources be moved here. I will support the claim once I see the sources mentioned here. Again, It's not an exceptional claim.

I have several sources, however I wrote that Tupac symbolizes activism against inequality, because in this way I report what is written in the source without copying it word for word. Pier1999 (talk) 20:49, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

@Pier1999: Like I say above, you need to provide them. Right now you have them on an editor's talk page. That's like not having mentioned them at all. ActionHeroesAreReal is under no obligation to go on a wild goose chase looking at every talk page of any editor you might have interacted with.

If you want the sources to be considered for this article, they must be brought and discussed here (or a venue like WP:RS/N), and then ideally find their way into the article. I have asked you a number of times to provide a list here of the sources and quotes from the sources. You have the material. All you need to do is organize it. Why not do this? You will get more support for putting activism in the article if you provide all the sources you have already mentioned somewhere else. A table would be best. --David Tornheim (talk) 00:19, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I just cited the source here Pier1999 (talk) 00:35, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I quoted a Temple University source in this discussion. Among other things, I had cited a source regarding the fact that Tupac was a symbol of activism against inequality and it was canceled by another user Pier1999 (talk) 00:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

@Pier1999: ONE source from a what appears to be a college newspaper written by a student will not cut it. You have other sources, like Stanford, Dyson, a New York Times article, an article in El Planteo, the Rolling Stones article (I don't see it mentioned here), and the .gov--possibly others. I also mentioned this as potential RS. Why not use them? Put them all together. You already have all the material assembled. Why not copy and paste it here? Your argument here is weak without all the sources. It doesn't need to be. --David Tornheim (talk) 01:48, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

I mentioned two, the one about Dyson's book and the one from the NY Times Pier1999 (talk) 02:03, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Description

why is it that someone changes the accurate description of Tupac that I have provided using various website sources? It don’t understand should I include citation’s now? Like references. Confunxion (talk) 00:01, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

@Confunxion: These is really a wikipedia policy questions. I have answered on your talk page in these two sections:

(1) User_talk:Confunxion#About_citations (permalink)

(2) User_talk:Confunxion#Changes_to_something_you_have_added (permalink)

--David Tornheim (talk) 07:40, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 April 2024

I am the biological daughter of Tupac shakur I have verified X and Instagram accounts @lisajanehargreaves and I also have my medical records confirming my blood results. I am of African American origin. Lisa jane Hargreaves (talk) 18:14, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.

Please note that social media accounts are not acceptable sources on Wikipedia. If you are asking to be mentioned in the page we would need independent reliable sources, such as news articles, confirming your relation to Tupac. Jamedeus (talk) 19:17, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

• Lisa jane Hargreaves Thank you for coming forward and immediately declaring your relationship and WP:COI per the guidelines. I look forward to hearing your edit request(s). --David Tornheim (talk) 23:59, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Song writer

This is a continuation of the discussion here and here. Based on my review of sources, Tupac is indeed a song-writer and that should be in the WP:LEDE. I believe it has been in the LEDE for quite sometime, so the removal is not justified.--David Tornheim (talk) 04:16, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Then why is this not in the lead of every hip-hop artist that writes their own songs? The Notorious B.I.G., Jay-Z, Nas, Eminem. I have looked up multiple artists and do not see this in the lead of their articles. Why is it for Tupac's article in particular and not these other artists? They should be edited for uniformity was my argument. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 04:25, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I looked up Notorious B.I.G. and this category certainly indicates to me that he was a song-writer. So I agree with you that article should probably say so too. It's all about what the WP:RS says. I did a google search and it appears to me that Tupac wrote many or most of his own songs. this category also supports the claim. It is mentioned in the WP:BODY, which should be fleshed out to say more about Tupac's song-writing. --David Tornheim (talk) 04:50, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I apologize to both editors for engaging in the edit war. I'm not familiar with Wikipedia rules and shouldn't have been aggressive in my approach. This is the last I will post about it. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 04:50, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@Darrencdm1988: Thanks for the apology. You can continue to discuss any concerns you have about the article here on the article talk page. But it should be grounded in the WP:RS. Also, I did look at Notorious B.I.G. and it lists his occupation as "songwriter". I do know you are a new editor and I appreciate you acknowledging that. There are indeed a lot of rules here and many seem to contradict each other. If you have any questions feel free to ask me or any other experienced editor, or ask at the Wikipedia:Teahouse. --David Tornheim (talk) 04:58, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Previous discussion #1 on user talk page that should probably be here instead

This is a continuation of the discussion here:

I disagree with your reasoning and will continue to remove songwriter from the lead. Just because he wrote his own songs does not mean it was a "main occupation" of his or should be considered an occupation that he made money from. You're saying the fact other music artists don't have this in the lead of their article doesn't matter, and I also disagree. So therefore until settled by another editor, this will be considered an edit war because I will continue to remove your edits. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 00:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand one thing: but what does it change to you if it says songwriter or not? It's been months since it wrote songwriter and no one has complained. So do we need to remove songwriters from all artist pages? Why shouldn't Tupac be written? Pier1999 (talk) 00:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Before edit war, let's discuss. No need for an edit war. I want to understand why on Tupac's page there can't be written songwriter, this is written in the lead of many artists. Why can't Tupac be written? What's different for you? Tupac is considered one of the best songwriters in the history of music, Eminem considers him the greatest songwriter ever, Nas said in an interview that Tupac was better than Shakespeare. Songwriter is written in the lead of many pop stars whose lyrics are quite banal and do not have the literary complexity of Tupac's. Pier1999 (talk) 00:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Every hip hop artist I have researched that wrote their own songs does not have this in the lead. Tupac did not write songs for other artists that I know of, so it shouldn't be considered an occupation he profited from much less a main occupation of his. Eminem, Notorious B.I.G., Jay-Z, Nas etc. would all have to be changed to suit your whims of adding this in the lead on Tupac's article. That's how I see it. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 01:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Songwriter doesn't just mean who writes songs for others, it also means who writes their own songs. For example, on the page of Kendrick Lamar, Kanye West and Lil Wayne it is written. Why shouldn't it be written in Tupac's? For example, on the page of Bono of U2 and Nina Simone, there is also an activist in the lead. Yet these are not two of their main activities, they are above all artists. Why should only Tupac's page say only rapper? When he was also a poet, activist, songwriter and actor. Pier1999 (talk) 01:39, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not about tantrums, so according to your reasoning we have to take away songwriter from Kendrick Lamar, Kanye West and Lil Wayne as well. Right? Pier1999 (talk) 01:50, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree with you, following your reasoning then we should take Songwriter off the lead of all the rappers who have it because Jay-Z, Eminem and Biggie don't have that in the lead. Wikipedia should be an information site, not a personal information site. When I've edited the lead several times, the admins have praised my edits, so songwriter needs to be written. Your reasoning has nothing to do with it, so if we take away songwriters from Tupac, we have to take it away from all artists. Pier1999 (talk) 01:55, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Until settled, this will be an indefinite edit war. That's the end of it from my perspective. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 02:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

This was not in the lead of the article until you added it recently. It's your opinion only. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 02:37, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It's actually not true, it has been in the lead of the article for at least two months and a few days ago it was removed. Check the changes Pier1999 (talk) 02:41, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Tupac's article was created in 2005, so it is true that it was added recently. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 02:44, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

So, precisely it was added by me 26 days ago and was removed for the first time yesterday. You can check the changes to the page. Pier1999 (talk) 02:45, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

As I stated, it was not in the lead of the article until you added it recently. It is your opinion only. The article has been on Wikipedia since 2005. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 02:47, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

It was actually written before, even years ago, then it was changed several times. First it was written on the page that Tupac was a symbol of activism against inequality and then it was removed. In the past other people had written songwriters, you can go into the edits. It was actually written before, even years ago, then it was changed several times. First it was written on the page that Tupac was a symbol of activism against inequality and then it was removed. In the past other people had written songwriters, you can go into the edits. It was actually written before, even years ago, then it was changed several times. First it was written on the page that Tupac was a symbol of activism against inequality and then it was removed. In the past other people had written songwriter, you can go into the edits. Pier1999 (talk) 02:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Then we have a disagreement on whether it belongs in the lead of the article. Simple as that. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 03:03, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Of course, basically Tupac's lead is always changing, it changes every six months. While the other artists' leads always remain the same, which is a strange thing. Then there are often edit wars on the page. That said, what does it make to you if songwriter is written in the lead or not? At least that should be written, other artists have written all the occupations in the lead, even if they are secondary occupations. Pier1999 (talk) 03:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@David Tornheim I ask you to intervene because there is a user here who is making an edit war. Remove songwriter from Tupac's lead just because in his personal opinion he shouldn't be put. When in reality Tupac is considered one of the best songwriters ever Pier1999 (talk) 03:46, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I had to tag an admin because you're making edit wars and editing a page that doesn't make any sense. According to your logic, Kendrick Lamar and Lil Wayne should also be stripped of songwriter in the lead. Pier1999 (talk) 03:49, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

You are willfully engaging in an edit war as well. Don't put it off on me and act like you are not playing a part. That's what this entire thing is about, really. You are acting like your opinion is supreme. I have never noticed this in the lead before and have been editing this article for years, so if it was there before I am not the only one who has removed it. Others disagree with you as well. Darrencdm1988 (talk) 04:11, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

--END OF DISCUSSION #1 COPIED FROM USER TALK PAGE--

Copied here by --David Tornheim (talk) 04:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Previous discussion #2 on user talk page that should probably be here instead

This is a continuation of the discussion here:

Hi, I saw that you took songwriter out of Tupac's lead and added actor. Actor is not one of Tupac's most important occupations, while songwriter is. Also because songwriter is about his music, his main activity. It's okay as it says. There is no need to change the lead. His main activity was music, not being an actor. Actor is already reported in the occupations part. The fact that it's not written in the beginning to other artists has nothing to do with it, songwriter is one of Tupac's main occupations and it has to do with his music. Songwriters and rappers are the two main occupations, so they must remain so. Actor is a secondary occupation. As we have already written in several threads on this page. I don't see what it has to do with the fact that they didn't write it to other artists, so we should take songwriters away from all artists.Pier1999 (talk) 00:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

--END OF DISCUSSION #2 COPIED FROM USER TALK PAGE--

Copied here by --David Tornheim (talk) 04:38, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

AI Tupac voice generator

Don't know if this is important enough to mention, but there's a web page that can be used to have Tupac's voice dubbed: [6] I don't see how he can have given his permission for his voice to be used, but maybe his heirs did. WiseWoman (talk) 20:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@WiseWoman: Probably would need to be mentioned in WP:RS to justify including any mention of it in the article. Sometimes external links are included in a special section at the end of articles, as is the case with this one: Tupac_Shakur#External_links. Because of potential copyright infringement, I would be against inclusion. --David Tornheim (talk) 21:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, please note that according to our article Copyright_law_of_the_United_States#Duration_of_copyright: 'Copyright protection generally lasts for 70 years after the death of the author. If the work was a "work for hire", then copyright persists for 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter.' However, as a paralegal--I am not an attorney and cannot give legal advice--Wikipedia is not a reliable source on law. There are better sources online and law does change and is often complicated by case law that can even vary by jurisdiction. Law libraries are good resources, but in the end if you want proper legal advice, you need to see an attorney who specializes in the appropriate field. --David Tornheim (talk) 22:00, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Gangsta rap in the lead

@Cena332 In my opinion it is useless to write that in the final part of his career he did Gangsta rap, it is already written on the page. Otherwise we would have to write in the lead that he was a political and conscious rapper. But it's useless, it's already written in the genres and on the page Pier1999 (talk) 02:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cena332 In fact, I'll write more: most of 2pac's songs are political rap and conscious rap songs, only in the final part of his career did he do Gangsta rap. So it would be more appropriate to write political rap and conscious rap in the lead. Or write both political rap and gangsta rap. (As it is written in the Ice Cube lead for example). Pier1999 (talk) 02:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

It is already written in the contents of the article that he addressed say for example social injustice; but it's still included in the lead. I don't see a problem with including Gangsta rap respectively. He also did do gangsta rap before Death Row; (but when he got to Death Row it escalated) but yes he did had socially conscious songs like Keep Ya Head Up. I think this is already addressed in the lead by "His lyrical content has been noted for addressing social injustice, political issues and the marginalization of African-Americans". Cena332 (talk) 02:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

African-americans or black americans in the lead

Okay, but let's write African-Americans then? Or do we leave black Americans? Pier1999 (talk) 02:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll let you and HumansRightsIsCool discuss that, because that wasn't my issue. Cena332 (talk) 02:45, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I've sent him a invite. Hopefully he responds. Cena332 (talk) 02:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

ok, thanks Pier1999 (talk) 02:50, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

it doesn't matter If it says "African-Americans" or "black Americans" they're pretty much the same thing. Most African-Americans are considering black and most people considered black around the globe have African ancestors HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 03:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea why i wrote black americans and replaced African-Americans HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 03:19, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

sorry In my first message i meant "considered" not "considering" HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 03:20, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

personal interpretations

@HumansRightsIsCool https://theconversation.com/in-tupacs-life-the-struggles-and-triumphs-of-a-generation-79266 "Moviegoers this summer have enjoyed “All Eyez on Me,” the biopic of Tupac Shakur, one of the most iconic and influential musicians of the 20th century." Articles written by Jeffrey O.G. Ogbar, professor of history and popular music at the University of Connecticut. The article describes Tupac as one of the most influential musical artists of the 20th century, does not mention "one of the African-American artists." You have to stick to the sources Pier1999 (talk) 20:53, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I just added a source which said he's one of the most influential black artists. Now I'm sticking to sources. Being black was a big part of tupacs career, he rapped about it, talked about it tons of times and was an activist for his own people, the fact that nowhere in this article says he's black is crazy HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 20:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

So I read the article you wrote, but it's not as authoritative a source as the article written by Jeffrey O.G. Ogbar. He does not report that he is one of the most influential African-American musical artists, but one of the most famous ones. However, your source does not delete an article written by an academic. Pier1999 (talk) 21:03, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The article you cited is not written by an academic, while the one I cited months ago is written by one of America's leading academics in history and popular music. Also, as already written, it only reports that 2pac is one of the most famous African-American artists ever. I don't read influential writing. That said, a different source doesn't delete an authoritative source, I recommend you read the Wikipedia rules. Pier1999 (talk) 21:11, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has rules? HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 01:57, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, of course there are rules. You can contact the administrators to have them explain it to you. Anyway I removed Gangsta rap in the lead, because it's already mentioned in the music genres and on the page. I don't understand why Tupac's lead has to have changes every week... Pier1999 (talk) 02:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

• @HumansRightsIsCool: Yes, Wikipedia has a few rules called policies and guidelines. I explain on your talk page here: User_talk:HumansRightsIsCool#Yes._There_are_rules.... And FYI. I'm not an admin. --David Tornheim (talk) 04:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  Ok. I'll read it to make sure I don't break any rules HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 04:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Remove Makaveli as stage name

I suggest removing Makaveli as a stage name from the lead, and keep it in the other names section; as he never performed under the name Makaveli. Tupac's last concert was The House of Blues on July 4, 1996, and there he was still introduced as 2Pac. Cena332 (talk) 02:01, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Lead

@Confunxion There is no need to write in the lead: "one of the hip hop artists of his generation", because it is already written: "one of the most influential rappers of all time." Let's avoid repetitions that can lead to edit wars. Pier1999 (talk) 06:23, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cena332 it should say Tupac is African American in the lead HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 22:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I would stick to the sources as Wikipedia's rules indicate; but i would like to get editors, ActionHeroesAreReal and Confuxtion involved so we can reach a consensus going forward. Cena332 (talk) 22:14, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

what action heros wants is "the source says African American, not people in the black community." He thinks we should copy sources word for word which is probably against wikipedia rules. And why does Confuxtion need to get involved? He was only complaining because the lead mentioned "African American" twice, so I wrote "people in the black community" so it wouldn't say the words "African American" twice, that was his only problem HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 22:39, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

also tell me how my edits don't follow sources HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 22:41, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Rappers; Biggie Smalls, Nas and Jay-Z leads do not start out as they are "African-American rappers". It’s that they are "American rappers". 2Pac we know he is African-American, you can see that in the Infobox, This doesn’t need to be self-explained, Your making to much of an issue out of this over nothing. --Cena332 (talk) 01:09, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

It should say Tupac is African American because it's relevant to his music. I don't think Jay z raps about being black HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 04:45, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Tupac was a more conscious and political rapper than Jay-Z, but Jay-Z also made political/conscious rap songs. Pier1999 (talk) 15:32, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Oh. I never listened to Jay-Z before. Only people I listen to is Eazy E, Biggie, and Tupac. Eminem is trash, Drake is trash, Kendrick is trash, youngboy is trash. HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 08:06, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Tupac page

The page for Tupac can now be edited by everyone; it wasn't like that before. Previously, only administrators and users with permission could edit it. This rule needs to be reinstated, or it will be edited every day Pier1999 (talk) 09:41, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

It's protected again HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 13:07, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Removed puffery and original research in the lede

None of the sources cited imply that academics regard him as one of the most influential music artists of the 20th century and also a politically conscious activist voice for Black America. This is clear puffery; also, original research is not allowed on Wikipedia. Tupac is also not notable for being talked about among “academics”. ActionHeroesAreReal (talk) 11:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

All the sources @Pier1999 linked are from academics, one is from Harvard. And they describe Tupac as one of the biggest hip hop artists of the 20th century, literally says that in the sources, that's not puffery, it's the facts. HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 16:01, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Also you're removing other information that was sourced too. Your deleting random sentences from all over the article because apparently you're not a fan of Tupac and you don't want the article to say that he's one of the most influential rappers, despite that's what sources say. That's not puffery or false praise, that's not praise at all that's literally what sources say. And you're violating the "Wikipedia:Tendentious editing" policy. The policy states "Tendentious editing is a pattern of editing that is partisan, biased, skewed, and does not maintain an editorially neutral point of view. It may also involve repeated attempts to insert or delete content in the face of the objections of several other editors". Your deleting important info because you don't like tupac. You're violating that policy. HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 16:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

and why do you keep removing the word "other" in the lead. Tupac was also African American himself. That's why it says "the marginalization of other African Americans", now you're just removing content from the page just because you feel like it, even when it's sourced and notable. HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 16:11, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

He has done this before, when I had written activist in the lead and decided to remove it by his personal will without any consent. But in that case I let it be, now I realize that he doesn't know who Tupac was at all, practically there are academic studies about him everywhere in the world. I have also contacted various academics, it is really a strange situation. Anyway until he has someone's consent, he cannot edit the page, if not it will be edit war. Pier1999 (talk) 16:53, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Not true, the cited sources widely mention Tupac as one of the most influential artists of the 21st century and as a politically aware activist voice for black America. Tupac is not worthy of academic mention? Have you even read the whole page? There's a section devoted to his academic evaluation, plus I have plenty of other academic sources. I will tell you more, I have directly contacted many academics who teach courses on Tupac all over the world. My sources are unlimited. You obviously don't know Tupac Pier1999 (talk) 16:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Is Tupac not worth mentioning among academics? Basically in 'Legacy and remembrance', there is the 'Academic appraisal' part. Ahahahhah, you're acting this way because you don't like Tupac. Is Tupac not worth mentioning among academics? Basically in 'Legacy and remembrance', there is the 'Academic appraisal' part. Ahahahhah, you're acting this way because you don't like Tupac. However I have unlimited academic sources on Tupac, the sources cited are from the University of Oslo, Harvard University, an article in The Conversation where an academic (Jeffrey Og ogbar), defines Tupac as one of the most influential artists of the 20th century. The article, on the other hand, from cbc Canada, where Jeffrey Og ogbar's opinion is again quoted, as well as that of Kevin Powell, an activist and professional writer. Did you read the sources or are you joking? Pier1999 (talk) 16:28, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

In practice, you are deleting things from the page by your own will, not by anything else. In the sources mentioned there is the opinion of academics, instead of removing the sources, start reading the cited articles. By the way, on Tupac's English Wikipedia page there is even a section called "Academic appraisal", precisely because he is the subject of study among academics. Lol Pier1999 (talk) 16:32, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

You will not receive anyone's consent, I and everyone who edits the page agree to write these things. So stop editing them, you are just doing edit war because you probably don't know Tupac well. Even some administrators have written to me that the sources I quoted are good. Yours is just edit war, 'Tupac is not noteworthy to be mentioned among academics', in the Wikipedia english page instead there is a section dedicated to his academic evaluation. But why do you edit this page if you know nothing about Tupac? I repeat: you don't have anyone's consent, the sources quoted are largely what it says, and I have contacted many academics directly. Stop with these edit wars Pier1999 (talk) 16:40, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Until you have someone's consent, you cannot edit the page. It's crazy that you started deleting parts of the article without reading the sources at all. It's crazy that you started deleting parts of the article without reading the sources at all. And you keep writing that there are no sources reporting this, when in fact the sources clearly write that thing. You write that Tupac is not noteworthy for being mentioned among academics when his page even has a section reporting his academic evaluation. You know nothing about Tupac, you have been trying to belittle his character for months without any sense. Besides, I have directly contacted academics from all over the world, I can even link you their social profiles directly if you want. It's a crazy situation lol Pier1999 (talk) 16:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Tupac's Wikipedia page is not a personal space, if you want to edit something you must first have someone's consent. For now you don't have consent, I and many others agree to keep the page that way. If you have consent you can edit, otherwise there will be an edit war. Pier1999 (talk) 16:56, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

However, you are arguing with a person who will have at least 200 academic articles on Tupac and who has contacted academics all over the world. My changes have been approved by everyone, including the administrators. Your behaviour is completely impartial and I repeat: without any consent, according to Wikipedia rules, you cannot continue to edit the page. Pier1999 (talk) 17:04, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the thousands of posts, but I am at a loss as to how one can write that Tupac is not worthy of being mentioned among academics when he is the subject of academic study all over the world, and in fact in all his Wikipedia pages in any language his academic evaluation is mentioned. Anyway, that's the end of the story, until you get consent you can't remove those parts of the page. Pier1999 (talk) 17:08, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

You make a compelling point. With 200 academic articles on Tupac under your belt and having received approval from administrators and academics worldwide, your expertise and authority in this matter are undeniable. I appreciate your dedication to maintaining the integrity of the Tupac article HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 17:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

"do not continue to vandalize the article by making undiscussed removals of sourced content without consensus. Your claims of "original research" are inappropriate given the reliable sourcing of the content you're removing. Do not edit war further on this article." "As @Swatjester told you. Stop vandalizing the page! Pier1999 (talk) 12:57, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Whole lot of issues here.

• @ActionHeroesAreReal: -- do not continue to vandalize the article by making undiscussed removals of sourced content without consensus. Your claims of "original research" are inappropriate given the reliable sourcing of the content you're removing. Do not edit war further on this article.
• @Pier1999: --your academic credentials are irrelevant here. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit, and they need no titles, qualifications, or expertise to do so. Your behavior above is a gross display of ownership over an article -- you do not have any authority to tell someone that they may not edit a page without your consent, nor are you entitled to use your personal credentials as a bludgeon in an argument. Additionally, your spamming of several comments in a row is aggressive and unhelpful. Knock it off.

Neither of you are exemplifying the behavior we expect of editors. If it continues, there *will* be sanctions against the editors involved. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 17:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I absolutely apologize, how can I go back to edit the page? Pier1999 (talk) 17:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't mean to do that, I just wrote those things because I put a lot of discretion in editing articles, I understand I did wrong, but I can help make the page better. I would like to go back to being able to edit the page, how can I do that? Pier1999 (talk) 17:51, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

At the moment, you can't; I have protected the page so that only administrators can edit it due to the persistent edit warring. Use this time to make yourselves familiar with our policies and to discuss proposed edits on the talk page. When the protection expires, the page will become editable again. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 17:54, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@Pier1999 you didn't do anything wrong. Me and you stopped constant vandalism on this page HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 17:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

@HumansRightsIsCool: -- I should note that you are edit warring and in violation of the 3RR on this article, with at least 5 reverts within the past 24 hours. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Content disputes are not vandalism, and are not exemptions to the edit warring policy. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 18:06, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I was only reverting because there was tons of vandalism on the page HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 18:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

"Content disputes are not vandalism", aren't they though when someone removes tons of sourced info from the page without explanation? HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 18:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

According to policy: On Wikipedia, vandalism has a very specific meaning: editing (or other behavior) deliberately intended to obstruct or defeat the project's purpose, which is to create a free encyclopedia, in a variety of languages, presenting the sum of all human knowledge. and Even if misguided, willfully against consensus, or disruptive, any good faith effort to improve the encyclopedia is not vandalism. For example, edit warring over how exactly to present encyclopedic content is not vandalism. Careful consideration may be required to differentiate between edits that are beneficial, edits that are detrimental but well-intentioned, and edits that are vandalism. If it is clear that an editor is intending to improve Wikipedia, their edits are not vandalism, even if they violate some core policy of Wikipedia. -- from Wikipedia:Vandalism ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 18:15, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Here we go, the user has returned to vandalize the page. What should we do now? Pier1999 (talk) 12:44, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

@ActionHeroesAreReal Why are you continuing to edit the page if you have been told not to? If you keep doing this, the administrators will ban you from editing. Pier1999 (talk) 12:51, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Administrators say he's allowed to edit the page, the problem is he keeps removing a bunch of random sentences from this article and he keeps calling it original research despite it being sourced, and he's edit warring with people HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 13:06, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

@Acroterion Pier1999 (talk) 13:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)