Talk:Vaishnavism

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delete[edit]

i think the krishna section in this article and others should be removed or supply an reliable refrence —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.228.179.171 (talk) 12:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Swayam Bhagavan uner Principal historic branches[edit]

Should red letter page Swayam Bhagavan listed here, be Svayam Bhagavan?

This is not an article on Vaishnavism. It is about the sectarian perception by a contemporary organization (ISKCON) of Vaishnavism. It should appropiately be referred as an article on ISKCON (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Society_for_Krishna_Consciousness) and its particular dogmas and phylosophycal positions. I am new to wikipedia so I do not know how exactly the process goes to review these articles to help improve their neutrality. Does someone review tha information? Who finally decides what stays and what goes? Saludos

Jose Ignacio Lopez — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joseignaciolopez (talkcontribs) 20:08, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Rig Veda extract[edit]

Does the quote from the Rig Veda really belong in the lead? Is this actually the generally accepted translation and interpretation? 70.75.233.253 (talk) 18:22, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Obviously do, source added. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:42, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
The IP is right: that interpretation of the Rigvedic verse may well be the ones preferred by Vaishnava devotees, but it is not the "standard" one. Vishnu is mentioned in the Rigveda but only as a minor deity. Bladesmuti, can you provide the exact quotes and context from the source you added. I couldn't access it on Google Books. Abecedare (talk) 11:21, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Neutrality[edit]

Jbgfour (talk) 03:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Obviously this entire article is written by ISKCON : — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbgfour (talkcontribs) 14:04, 8 March 2015 (UTC) Since the 1900s Vaishnavism has spread from within India and is now practiced in many places around the globe, including America, Europe, Africa, Russia and South America. This is largely due to the growth of the ISKCON movement, founded by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

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Merger proposal: Krishnaism into Vaishnavism[edit]

Done. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 02:57, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It seems to me that Krishnaism more or less covers the same topic as Vaishnavism. Having two articles on the same topic is rather confusing. There's a lot of duplicate information, while the overview of the various sects could be clearer. I'd like to improve the article; it's weird that such an important topic is covered in such a confusing way. Having one article on the topic would make it easier to make the topic more accessible. The Vaishnavism article also draws about ten times more visitors, and has at least four times more page-watchers. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:27, 5 April 2016 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Three sections and the continued improvement of this article[edit]

@Joshua Jonathan: I like your edits. Are there specific sub-sections you would like me to focus on, among those marked 'expand section' (just wanting to avoid edit conflicts and duplicated work)? There are three subsections I would like to suggest: Vaishnava Upanishads, doctrinal differences/similarities between Vaishnavism-Shaivism-etc, Tantra in Vaishnavism. The last would clarify a few of the current subsections. If you are already planning to work on these, I will hold off. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:48, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

@JJ: Aren't some images difficult to read, poorly done? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: I'd like to add more info on the various traditions; so far, Flood will be helpfull. The three topics you mention are out of my comptence c.q. knowledge, so go ahead. And yes, some images, c.q. schemes, are difficult to read. But when they're given a bigger size, they dominate the article too much. Reader scan enlarge them themselves, though, by clicking on them. Thank you for your additions! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 18:17, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
@Joshua Jonathan: The tantra in Vaishnavism part is probably best included in individual sub-traditions, where applicable, because it varies with each. I have woven in a bit of the tantra part in the Sri Vaishnavism section. If you think there is an alternate better way, let me know. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:12, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Ref-fixes[edit]

@JJ: The harv cites to Welbon 2005 and Hiltebeitel 2013 do not link anywhere. Please check. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:26, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I've added Hiltebeitel. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:16, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Sourced content[edit]

@Dm51c: Why remove reliable sources and sourced content? What verifiable evidence do you have that the scholarly publications are sectarian? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:24, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Copied from User talk:Ms Sarah Welch#Vaishnavism
You did change sourced info, and removed sourced info. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 22:12, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

.These articles have become battleground b/w isckon and south indian vaishnavas.i havent changed info to reflect my stand .i have collected the info relating to its denomination and coherently divided it into its major schools relating to the historical development of this sect and by contemprary belivers It improves the readability of into .those source i have removed were not against my view,they only described differnt schools of vaishnavism and some even vindicated it.hastily i removed them as they had syntax error..Thanks~~dm51c — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dm51c (talkcontribs) 22:36, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

INTRO[edit]

have checked the encyplopedic material on this subject by various authors.i hadnt removed sourced content as source itself was missing in some instances.Historically Bhagavta tradition of krishna predtates current vaishnavism and vaishnavism is not a monolithic whole but is categorically divided into major cults each attributing supremacy to a differt deity so it should be relected in the intro .I had added verifiable refrences pinpointing to page no of eminent scholars to sustain it .Hence i am reverting that change.ThanksDm51c (talk)dm51c —Preceding undated comment added 22:25, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

@Dm51c: You are repeatedly removing "while Krishna, Rama, Narayana and Vasudeva are the most popular". Narayana temples are common in many parts of India, such as Karnataka. Your changes are over-emphasizing Krishna in the lead and article (the article already uses "Krishna" over 150 times). That violates NPOV. Please note that the past editors of this article already cite the sources you allege you are adding. Matchett, for example, is already a much cited harv source. You allege your edit is supported by "add verifiable refrences [sic]". Not so. To the contrary, the added sources confirm what the lead and main article already state. Lets take one item at a time. Why are you deleting Narayana, Vasudeva, poornavatar paragraph and increasing the emphasis on Krishna? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:27, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch."Why are you deleting Narayana, Vasudeva, poornavatar paragraph and increasing the emphasis on Krishna?"Reason as narayan is considred not an avatar but the name of vishnu himself.similarly vasudeva is name of krishna.that paragraph was simply incorrect.
emphasis onkrishna is increased since 3CENTURY bc monotheistic tradition based on krishna/vasudeva as supreme deity developed ,ad most of the alvars were devootees were of krishna and uniquely venerated him.
"To the contrary, the added sources confirm what the lead and main article already state." the added source clearly divided the vaishnava into variou schools depending upon theology of supreme deity.its crystal clear.thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dm51c (talkcontribs) 23:41, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch.You can read the origin section of this article which explains how krisna traditions were parallel to the panchartara tradition and have historical exmaples from both north and south Dm51c (talk)dm51c —Preceding undated comment added 23:47, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
@Dm51c: The words Vasudeva/Narayana/etc are important to mention, because they are regionally important "and" because the reliable sources use them. We already state "Vishnu is the Supreme Lord" in Vaishnavism in the lead para. There is no need to repeat this. Theism, whether mono/pan/panen is a complex topic, and the article discusses it in "Theism with many varieties" section, with WP:RS. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:53, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
Ms Sarah Welch:i agree they are regionally important but narayana is not said to be avatar of vishnu.it along with hari is used interchangbly for vishnu.using it as an avatar is misleading.
And for overemphasis of krishna ,vaishnaviam has 4 major sects(CONTEMPRARY -PRESENTLY FOLLOWED).
1)Sri vaishnav -Vishnu
2)madhva-vishnu
3)nimbarka-krishna
4)vishnuswami and vallabh - krishnaSo adding krishna on the intro vindictaes the accepted definition of it based on the variations in theology.you can matchet book from page 199 you can read the conclusion of this discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dm51c (talkcontribs)
I see your first point. Perhaps, the lead can be clearer on avatar. On your second point, the article already covers this in Krishna etc sections, mentions Ramanuja, Madhva, Gaudiya Vaishnava, Nimbarka and Vallabhacharya traditions. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:16, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
I think we can reach consensus.I mentioned krishna explicity because about half of present day and even historical vaishnavism regard him as deity in itself.the traditions around krishna are not limited to just isckon.as you can hover down and read the table of sects around half of them are exclusive focused on krishna.the adherents of there cults are in sizeable amount to waarnt change in intro.Even historically bhgavata tradition focused exclusively on him which eventually got syntheised(not collapsed) with vishnu cults.Matchet has clearly researched deep into this issue and have maintained that vishnu/krishna both can be mentioned as supreme from historical examples and presnt day foolwers.We should agree on his conclusion.Source matchet book pg 199 "to read it type conclusion as key word followed by book name in gbooks"THanks.
You mentioned jaganatha which also falls in krishnaite tradition.And i believe it shouldnt be included in the intro as it worship has regional flavour and we cant include regional dietiies like vithoba,jaganaatha on the intro.only rama,krishna and vishnu have pan denomination presence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dm51c (talkcontribs) 00:49, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Dm51c: I reviewed the Matchett conclusion that begins on page 199. We already include late Freda Matchett's views and use some of her review. For balance, we can't rely exclusively on Matchett's primary research, and ignore all other scholars. Over-emphasis or exclusive emphasis on Krsna will make this article weaker. Joshua Jonathan and other editors, quite rightfully, merged Krishnaism into this article. Regional Vaishnavism are significant views and aspects of Vaishnavism, and per WP:NPOV policy we must present the significant majority and minority aspects of this subject. Let us wait for other editors to share their views. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:12, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Avatars: partial and full[edit]

@Dm51c: In the larger list of 22 avatars, Narayana is one of them. In Sikhism, Narayana is one of the Chaubis Avatar (24) of Vishnu. On a different topic, why do you keep deleting the paragraph about full avatar in the Puranas subsection? Full avatar is relevant and due here, see this for second source. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:52, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

The sects mentioned there are exclusively krishnaite and the word followed after that are clear misinterpretation .you can check there theology in their official sitesDm51c (talk)dm51c
@Dm51c: The main article already covers the various sects/sub-traditions, including the Krishna-related ones. Visnu has been a direct major focus in many parts of Indian subcontinent in the 1st millennium CE. Visnu-Sri remain major in Sri Vaishnavism in south, Jagannatha (with links to the Buddha) major in Odisha, Jharkhand and few other areas, Vithoba is major in parts of Maharashtra and north Karnataka. There are others. Yes, there is relationship between all these, Krishna, Rama etc. But we can't suppress or shadow out all this, and make this article 100% Krishna. The article does and should summarize mainstream competing reliable sources, peer reviewed scholarship. Please see WP:RS and WP:NPOV. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:24, 31 December 2016 (UTC)