Template talk:Infobox automobile/Archive 4

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Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5

Oppose simplification

I disagree with the removal of these information fields, proposed for the automobile template and already implemented at the motorcycle infobox template.

Per the infoboxes for countries (eg Austria), and towns (eg Ankara), and chemicals (eg ammonia), and more, there doesn't seem to be any need or requirement to cut out information for length purposes. Those infoboxes also contain information that is not reiterated within the article bodies.

Infoboxes are perfectly suited to displaying this type of content, and I strongly believe these technical details benefit the reader, to be easily found and compared between articles (rather than having to hunt through prose, or find a table lower down the page). See also WP:NOTPAPER.

For these reasons and more, I strongly suggest reinstating the deleted material, and not deleting any more fields until wider input has been sought. -- Quiddity (talk) 03:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Support removal - we will not seek "wider input" until enough people will support you. The WikiProject is open to everybody, and more often than not discussions are driven by one-time "members" with an axe to grind, so I don't see how our input is narrow. Anybody interested can join the WikiProject and/or our discussions, and I don't see how they don't. Infoboxes are not suited for displaying information which may vary significantly for subjects covered by one infobox, and which needs further explanation for the reader to see how it pertains to the subject. I also don't see how it is proper to shoehorn everything in the infobox rather than talk about it in prose or perhaps institute a datasheet/table. PrinceGloria (talk) 06:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support removal. The fields are not necessarily being removed for length purposes, but because they fail to meet the guidelines for infoboxes. swaq 14:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support removal. Seems to me a clear consensus is already being reached and I agree with it. Roguegeek (talk) 16:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
And since it was brought up, please head over here because we are looking for more feedback on the same issue, but dealing with the motorcycle infobox instead. Thanks. Roguegeek (talk) 16:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment- WP:IBX has been brought up several times, yet I have read it over and over again and I have yet to see anything that says these infoboxes are "wrong." --Sable232 (talk) 19:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I guess it might depend on your interpretation of "summary or overview information". I read that to mean information that gives a high level view and doesn't go into detail. swaq 19:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, in that case, "summary or overview" is whatever this WikiProject deems it to be. WP:IBX alone, then, is not valid reasoning in my opinion. --Sable232 (talk) 18:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment My main concern, is the loss of information. Perhaps someone could request a bot's assistance, to move information that is currently in the infoboxes into a new specs table? (it should all be a standard format, and hence easily extractable). Or at least add some details to the infobox doc-page, to explain that specifications should be in a table, and point to a good example (eg. Is Honda CB600F#Specifications the way we're meant to do it? or is that likely to be deleted by an overenthusiastic cleanup next month?). I'm simply saying that standards are good, and infoboxes shouldn't be trashed until there is a replacement strategy for a new standard. Information such as that found in the infobox for Honda PC50, just isn't available anywhere else on the web (in English).
    (This isn't my area of knowledge, I'm trying to help a new editor find his way on the Wiki, and he happened to start with motorcycles. Also, this may not be relevant to the automobile infobox, it was just where the Roguegeek's edit summary pointed to; and a grumpy outsider's opinion is occasionally useful :) -- Quiddity (talk) 00:01, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Specifications lists like the one you found were, as I recall, discussed once before and the agreement was that they weren't to be added as we are not a shop manual. --Sable232 (talk) 18:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
See the featured articles Mini Moke, and Holden VE Commodore (full infobox, and separate powertrain specs table) and the related B-17 Flying Fortress#Specifications (B-17G), or the equally useful/informative {{Infobox Automobile generation}} template in eg MINI (BMW)#Models. I can understand parts-lists and suchlike being excluded because "we are not a shop manual", but excluding basic specifications seems unhelpful. -- Quiddity (talk) 22:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose removal. I have already made a few comments, and I have yet to see valid reasoning in support of removal. I will add more to my statement when I can. --Sable232 (talk) 18:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose removal I dont see any reason to reduce or change the infobox, it is good now --— Typ932T | C  18:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose removal per Sable232 (talk · contribs) —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 21:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment - If it benefits the reader, I see no reason why to remove the fields. Even the manual of style authorizes the use of fields that are sometimes empty as long as they are not always empty and I believe that for many of the specifications a reliable source can be found and thus, it is more likely to not be empty eventually than to actually be. -- Loukinho (talk) 19:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

RfC: Fields to include

Determine which fields to include in the automobile infobox. See proposal for simplification and request to add fuel economy.

I don't see why the Math/Science folks are any more qualified to debate this than the members of WikiProject Automobile. There are plenty of us - and we are all reasonably expert in the subject area. Hence, this RfC is a waste of time and provides no improvement in the debate we're already having.
IMHO, we need to stand back a way from the problem. Here is what I think we should do - in a spirit of cooperation:
  1. Take a good long look at all of the data fields that go into a typical car specification sheet from the manufacturer - plus all of the fields we currently have - plus any more we can think of...that'll be a L-O-N-G list of every conceivable kind of data that could go into the infobox. It'll be long - but it'll be comprehensive. We can do this without rancor because we're not asking people to exclude anything at this stage.
  2. Then, we should decide how many lines of data we regard as the limit for a reasonable infobox - find consensus. That should be possible without having to take sides about MPG or Curb weight or whatever your personal favorite happens to be. It's a debate about style in the abstract. Let's call this agreed-upon number of entries "N".
  3. Next we agree on a way to score the answers to the next step which is to...
  4. ...Ask every member of the Wikiproject to pick the N most important things from the list in step (1) - rating them in order from 1 to N...where 1 is the most important and N is the least.
  5. Finally, we do a brainless statistical thing according to the rules we've already agreed in step (3) to determine which N items were most important to the most people.
The result of this process should not be too contentious. The majority of the N things should be important to most people - any serious dispute about the resulting infobox should be down in the least relevent couple of things...which ought to be an easy debate because the majority will agree on the process - even if they have minor qualms about the outcome. And for that we can swallow our pride and achieve consensus in the knowledge that we can accept that we did it fairly.
SteveBaker (talk) 01:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I did an RfC because I didn't think this was reaching consensus. I chose the Math/Science[/Technology] one because it seemed to be the closest fit. swaq 14:50, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
This has to be one of the stupidest discussions I have ever seen. If you want a parameter for cupholders (number of cupholders) or available as a convertible or whatever, it certainly isn't going to affect anyone else. Put in whatever parameters you want. It doesn't mean that anyone has to use them. I take it someone from the auto industry is holding the template hostage? Narnia205 (talk) 01:11, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Kerb/curb weight and dry weight?

Shouldn't there be fields for both or either? —Mr. Grim Reaper at 06:59, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Fields for electic cars

I want to know if the following fields can be added for electric cars.

  • traction motor=
  • charger=
  • charging connector=
  • charge time=
  • pack voltage=
  • battery type=
  • battery location=
  • maximum speed=
  • range

I notice that maximum speed is not available as such in the existing template, but in case of an electric car it becomes pertinant. Well mostly because their top speeds are not really top. This is in connection to the electric car REVA--PremKudvaTalk 10:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Are all of these really necessary? Some strike me as trivial, and others redundant (isn't "range" already covered by "electric range"?). Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
These should be discussed in the article. We don't need additional fields that will only be used by electric cars. swaq 15:24, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Not sure about these, maybe some own template to electric cars? --— Typ932T | C  17:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
That makes more sense to me. roguegeek (talk·cont) 17:59, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't to me. That would be substantial duplication of effort. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:39, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Title

The title looks a bit strange floating above the infobox. Is there any way to bring it back into the box with a slight background color, like it used to be? --Sable232 (talk) 23:56, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Infoboxen are gradually moving towards using this style. It is the recommended way of adding a header to a table. The slight background colour has no semantic value, and templates are not meant to use colour without good reason. Given that all the templates in category:Automotive infobox templates are now consistent, it would be a shame to have to regress based on an individual aeshetic quirk. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:42, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Aesthetics is important in good perception of information contained in the infobox. The current layout is confusing. Why is the entire infobox shaded and inside a box, but the title not so? It is harder to discern whether the title pertains to the box or is a separate element. I'd expect a header to be an integral part of the infobox, in most applications I can think of it is so. I would consider the exclusion of the title to be an "individual aesthetic quirk", with no encyclopedic value whatsoever. PrinceGloria (talk) 08:12, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
And I expect the opposite - that the header be clearly separated from the content. If there is consensus across the project, I'm happy to make the change required to put the title inside the table (which simply requires changing the title from a title attribute to an above) across all relevant infoboxen, however. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't intend to have only this infobox changed, I just placed the discussion here since this seems to be the most-travelled talk page. --Sable232 (talk) 20:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Infoboxes need to be kept standardized and, currently, they are. No changes should be made in my opinion unless the overall guidelines (not just Automobile WP guidelines) are revised. roguegeek (talk·cont) 22:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe my argument applies to ALL infoboxes, the floating titles are ugly and confusing. But it is easier to change it for one project than to try to find consensus accross the whole WP. Anybody supports my motion to reinclude the title in the infobox? PrinceGloria (talk) 08:40, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Why would one project wish to deliberately deviate from the established norms of the rest of the encyclopedia? Rather than carving out individual fiefdoms, WikiProjects should be working together with one another wherever possible. Right now, the automobile infobox matches the style of the motor racing infobox. That the two happen to be in separate WikiProjects (drawn up on an arbitrary basis) need not concern a reader at all. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Because we need to repair Wikipedia from the ground up. PrinceGloria (talk) 09:55, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Standardized? I look at two major Infoboxes, and I see they use colorization; Infobox musical artist and Template:Infobox Military Conflict. Perhaps we could even vary the color used based on the year of the car, year rage or era, or fuel type? (That's not necessary at all, and would probably get out of hand, but nevertheless.) It make sit easier to scan through and looks better. And aesthetics does play an important role. Mr. Grim Reaper at 23:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

If you'd like counterarguments, there are plenty of high-profile infoboxen which use the same styling as this one. The template documentation specifically says that colour should follow an obvious and defined scheme, so varying it by manufacturer et cetera for the sake of having a colour band is therefore obviously not appropriate. {{infobox military conflict}} uses a specific colour because the Military WikiProject has a consistently-defined style for every one of its templates; that isn't the case here, though if it were then that would be fine. And aesthetics are personal - there is plenty of reason to assume, given the trend of infoboxen gradually losing their idiosyncratic personal styling over the years, that the current styling of this box is the preferred one for a majority of editors. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:05, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of standardisation, the "infoboxen" thing was cute and clever...once. The English plural of "box" is "boxes". —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 15:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't see why WikiProject Automobiles doesn't adopt a standardized color. Personally, I'd like to see this WikiProject organized to the same level as WikiProject Military history, or others. Though, maybe we should bring that up in the Project's talk page. Mr. Grim Reaper at 16:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
The best reason is that WikiProjects are entirely artificial constructs and that they shouldn't be set up as their own private little fiefdoms with their own rules unless there's some significant benefit or legacy involved in doing so. Setting up such a set of rules after the fact doesn't serve any benefit, and is liable to confuse readers who wonder why infobox templates arbitrarily deviate in style from one another. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:55, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
I find that ridiculous. Can you honestly tell me any reader will be "confused" because there is color in an area? It's not like I'm suggesting we add decorations, Flash, etc. It actually makes it easer for the reader. To be honest, the automobile Infobox is the only Infobox I've seen without color or a inside title for a long while. Also, I think we should add a field for a caption for the image. Mr. Grim Reaper at 01:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I've added a caption field. Thanks. Again, I dispute that there is a significant readability advantage to colour stripes in what is really a very simple template design: once upon a time cell borders were all the rage in infobox templates for the same reason, and they're mostly gone too these days. And yes, I do believe that arbitrary colouring is confusing. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 08:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

And I have reverted your edit because there's no consensus at this time. From what I count, 4 people are for it and 3 are against it.--Flash176 (talk) 16:52, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I don't see that there is significant opposition there to an optional attribute, but fair enough. Thanks for pointing to the discussion. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:56, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
May we get back to the topic at hand?
Obviously there are projects who have their infobox headings as part of the infobox, and I fail to see why we cannot do likewise. Chris, I do not see why you're treating this like we're trying to break away from Wikipedia or something like that. It looks like the consensus leaning among this project is that the previous design should be restored on Infobox Automobile and it's derivatives (engine, platform, etc.). --Sable232 (talk) 18:21, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Sable, how do you derive a consensus from 3 people for and 2 against? Make that 3 against, because I see no reason to change from the current form. As long as the page is setup properly and the infoboxes are put in their proper sections instead of being stacked like they are on Chevrolet Corvette C4, there should be no confusion. Even when stacked like they are in my example, I have a hard time believing they're that confusing.--Flash176 (talk) 18:45, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I said among this project, and Roguegeek was the only project member opposed (at the time). --Sable232 (talk) 19:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I've tried to be careful about making comments about "consensus" based on single threads less than a week old. Consensus is a group feeling which is generated over time - it isn't a head count involving a half-dozen "votes". I think the comment made by User:DeLarge on the subject back in August does an excellent job of explaining the original rationale, and since then there still doesn't seem to be any particularly strong counterargument. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 19:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

And there has yet to be a sufficient argument as to why it was changed in the first place (excluding "standardization" but that's been shown to be a moot point anyway). This isn't about the template coding changes, which is what it seems to me like DeLarge was mostly referring to. The argument that an editor is going to get confused because the infobox header is inside the infobox rather than outside it doesn't hold water. --Sable232 (talk) 20:13, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, no, it hasn't been shown to be a "moot point": the existence of counterexamples does not negate the goal of increasing standardisation; it simply indicates that the job isn't complete yet. I have not argued that readers will be "confused" by the layout; rather, that has been advanced by those who wish to change the styling. I do not believe that readers will be "confused" by the use of a perfectly standard wikitable-style title rather than a greyish bar, either. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
It's funny how robotic you sound. The title located inside just looks better, more organized, and professional. It gives a more consistent look with other Infoboxes. Mr. Grim Reaper at 22:56, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

aka field usage

The template page presently stipulates that the aka field is for other names of the car/automobile in different markets. Certainly that's an unquestionably valid use of the field — Subaru Forester and Chevrolet Forester, Chevrolet Cavalier and Toyota Cavalier, Dodge Spirit and Chrysler Saratoga, etc. — but why do we limit it to other names used in other markets? Within individual markets, there are many badge-engineered vehicles differing from each other only in make/model name and minor cosmetics. It is difficult to argue, for example, that the Plymouth Acclaim and Dodge Spirit are anything but akas of each other. Every last part interchanges directly, except for the name badges. The grilles and trim strips and taillamps are slightly different in appearance, but otherwise identical. These two cars aren't just "related", they are practically identical and therefore ought to be reciprocally referred as aka. The same goes for Dodge Aspen and Plymouth Volaré, for Ford Contour and Mercury Mystique, for Ford Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis, for Ford Taurus and Mercury Sable, for Mitsubishi Precis and Hyundai Excel, for Chevrolet Metro and Pontiac Firefly, for Chevrolet Caprice and a dozen other practically identical GM B-body cars, arguably for Geo Prizm and Toyota Corolla, probably for Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix, etc.

Obviously the standard of identicality will not always be perfectly clear; in some cases it'll be debatable (does the fact that the Chevrolet Caprice used a Chevrolet-made 305 cu in (5.0 L) V8 and the practically identical Pontiac Parisienne used an Olds 307 cu in (5.0 L) V8 mean they're no longer aka of each other?) but in many cases it's quite clear, and it seems to me this infobox stipulation as presently written is unnecessarily and improperly restrictive. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 19:56, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree most strongly. The Chevrolet Cobalt and Pontiac G5 are the same car with different logos, while the Opel Astra merely shares the same platform. The fact that the Chevrolet is sold in the same market as the Pontiac doesn't make it any less misleading to list the Coblat in 'Related' on the G5's page along with the Astra, rather than putting it in 'Also called'. Likewise, the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe are the same car in all but appearance and factory of origin, whereas the Corolla is more distantly related. David Arthur (talk) 20:24, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Despite the fact that I just changed that on the Matrix, I do agree with you. The only reason I didn't bring it up here was I figured I had started enough topics lately. :)--Flash176 (talk) 20:27, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
The last thing we need is an "aka" field a metre long. "aka" seemed to be used for cases where there were multiple nameplates in a single article. "Related" was sufficient for a series of similar cars with their own articles. I think it should stay that way. --Sable232 (talk) 20:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Aka field should be used for same car with different name, I think we should change so that related field is used only for cars using same platform, not for "cars which share components" this will cover too much different cars --— Typ932T |C  20:44, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Sable232, I'm not sure I follow your logic here. Any given vehicle would be listed in the "aka" field or in the "related" field, not both. There's nothing in this discussion that would tend to lengthen the infobox, we're just discussing which field should contain which types of listings. Am I misunderstanding your objection?

Typ932, I do agree the stipulation for the "related" field is potentially too broad, but we're dealing with a bit of a moving target here. On the one hand, all Hondas are related. On the other hand, just because you can get the same engine in a Civic as in an Accord (I don't know this to be true, I'm just making up an example) doesn't mean the two models are notably related. Consider the Chrysler products of the late '80s to mid '90s: they were virtually all K-car derivatives. Different body panels, a few different wheelbases, different equipment levels, and a different mix of engine availability, but underneath they were all highly commonised on the K-platform. Nevertheless, I don't think anyone reasonable would argue that the Dodge Dynasty should be listed as "related" to the Plymouth Sundance, but I'll bet you see my point: it's tough to nail down a precise level of commonality above which a vehicle is eligible for listing in the "related" field. We have to strike an appropriate balance for a general definition, and deal with individual cases individually. I think the current "cars which share components" wording is too broad, but I don't think your "cars built on the same platform" suggestion adequately addresses the issue.

How about something like Cars built on the same platform and/or substantially sharing the same components? —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 22:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I think I might've misunderstood what you were saying at first... and I'm not sure what I wrote makes all that much sense, so let's try again:
I think the "aka" field should be for alternate names for the vehicle the article is about. (So, for example, on Ford Pinto the "aka" field says Mercury Bobcat since there is no Bobcat article.) The "related" field will cover a car's "platform-mates," that is, the ones for which we have articles. "aka" would also be used for, say, Second-generation Ford Mustang, as it's usually called Mustang II. --Sable232 (talk) 02:03, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems as if we are in agreement on your first point: the aka field should be for alternate names for the subject of the article. So all my examples above would belong in aka. However, I do not agree that the criterion should be whether or not there is a separate article for the a-k-a vehicle. Whether there's to be a separate article or a combined one for substantially similar vehicles is decided on a case-by-case basis, and it is unlikely there'd be the political and encyclopædic will to have uniform provisions on the matter. That being the case, I do not agree with your proposal to replace one spurious restriction ("other names of the car/automobile in different markets") with another spurious restriction ("other names of the car/automobile for which no separate article exists").
Your points about the related field have validity and are worth discussing, but let's focus on one issue at a time rather than getting distracted and bogged down trying to tackle multiple issues (which usually guarantees no consensus). Right now, we're talking about the aka field. Regardless of the presence or absence of an article about an a-k-a vehicle, the question at hand here is whether or not it is OK to put such differently-named, substantially-identical vehicles in the aka field even if the two vehicles are from the same market. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 02:40, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
The issue I see with that is, what defines how closely related two cars have to be to be "also known as" each other? Would anyone say the Chevrolet Monte Carlo is also known as the Pontiac Grand Prix (and vice versa)? Or that the Oldsmobile Cutlass is also known as the Buick Regal (or Century, depending on year and trim level)? The 2008 Ford Taurus and Mercury Sable share nearly everything, but the 1986 models of each car share no body panels, have completely different dashboards, different door panels, seats, etc. It seems like there would end up being an arbitrary line drawn to separate things. --Sable232 (talk) 03:10, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I would say that the Chevrolet is also known as a Pontiac, and vice versa (in some cases, like the Cobalt and G5, I think it might be more productive to merge the articles, but that's another issue). Similarly, the Ford Taurus is sold as the Mercury Sable, even though that name had previously been used for a different car. The infobox is just a quick concatenation of the important details; the subtler points of history can be handled quite adequately by the article text.
I agree with Scheinwerfermann that the existence of separate articles is useless, since it tends to be entirely arbitrary. For example, Australia's Holden Commodore is exported to the Middle East as the Chevrolet Lumina, and to North America as the Pontiac G8. The Chevrolet Lumina article merely informs readers that the most recent Lumina is a rebadged Holden, and directs them to that article for more information; the Pontiac G8, on the other hand, has a lengthy article of its own. This is, I suspect, mostly a sign of the importance that Americans ascribe to cars sold by their domestic manufacturers, given the absence of any radical difference in the car itself.
'Also called' to me implies all cars which differ only in name, or in aesthetic and trim-line details. Adding an additional restriction such as 'in different markets' seems counterproductive to our goal of informing the reader. 'Related' can be saved for those cars which have substantial commonality, but also significant differences. David Arthur (talk) 14:14, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Sable232, I think you are worrying about a crisis or conundrum that we don't actually have here. We don't need a uniform answer (or "line", as you say, arbitrary or otherwise) that applies rigidly to every case. The question of appropriate placement of aka and/or related cars calls for general guidelines with the lattitude to allow case-by-case decisions. Take the Taurus/Sable example you raise, for instance. Through most of its life, those two cars were practically identical. The first few years, they didn't share m/any exterior body parts, but this amounted to Ford having done an extensive/expensive badge engineering job (extending the cosmetic differences to exterior sheet metal, not just grille and taillamp and trim type of stuff) rather than putting out two differently-engineered cars with substantial differences beyond cosmetics. The details can easily (and best) be covered in the article text.

But more than that — again — the question at hand is whether practically identical cars should be allowed in the aka field, even if they are in the same market. So far it looks like the consensus is leaning towards "yes". I don't think you are acting in bad faith, but I do wonder why you are so intently commenting on everything except the question at hand...could you please take a moment and think about the simple question of whether the "other markets" restriction should be there? —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 14:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Scheinwerfermann, I'm trying to explain why my response is "no." I think there should be some kind of restriction, otherwise all we're doing is moving things from "related" to "aka" for no reason other than to make it appear that every car on a given platform is a carbon copy of the other (at any rate, that's what I'm seeing).
David Arthur, for a good while the Monte Carlo and Grand Prix shared nothing but the frame, floorpans, windshield and roofline.
I can guarantee that the average WP reader is not going to accept that the Monte Carlo was also called Pontiac Grand Prix, because it wasn't. They were related closely enough that one can tell by looking at the two, but they were certainly not carbon copies of each other. --Sable232 (talk) 20:33, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Can we please not try to fix what ain't broke? The system works pretty well now - the aka field is for different names of the same vehicle, as covered in the article (regardless of the fact that the name is question might have been used on other vehicles, not covered in the article - as in the case of Chevrolet Lumina name used for Holden Commodore VT onwards). I would say the Mercuries are for the most part "akas" of Fords - didn't know about the fact that the Sable was so different from the Taurus originally, they look the same but for minor details to a layman's eye...
As concerns related, I believe we should take the "either platform or related" approach. It is pretty obvious the car is automatically related to all vehicles it shares the platform with, so listing one third of Honda's models when filling in the "related" field for a recent Honda Accord generation is rather superfluous. I'd reserve that field for cases not within the platform system for this or other reason - like the case of Matra Rancho and Simca 1100. PrinceGloria (talk) 21:29, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
'aka' definitely needs to be more than 'sharing a platform', but that isn't what's being proposed here. If you look at Pontiac G5, you'll see that the article suggests that the G5 has the same degree of commonality with both the Chevrolet Cobalt and the Opel Astra, which clearly isn't the case; the Cobalt and the G5 are identical cars apart from the logo and grille, while the Astra merely shares the same platform. Logically, the G5's page should list the Cobalt under 'aka' and the Astra under 'related', but if I were to do this at the moment, someone else would revert it because this template lists the arbitrary restriction that 'aka' should, for some reason that isn't made clear, be used only for cars sold in different markets.
Sable232: Sorry, I misunderstood your example, not knowing the particular cars in question - your 'and vice versa' made me think it was a question of which car was related to which. David Arthur (talk)
PrinceGloria, you write aka field is for different names of the same vehicle, and I completely agree with you. So does everyone else in this discussion, except for Sable232, who for some reason does not want to weigh in on the question at hand. We appear to have broad and strong consensus that we can remove the spurious ...in different markets restriction from the aka field descriptor. Unless there's any serious, thoughtful objection, I'll go ahead and do so. Then we can move on to discussing other matters, like the related field Sable232 is keen to refine. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 23:36, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I guess my only question if we change the wording is what's considered the same vehicle? Does it need to share the same sheetmetal, like the GMC Sierra/Chevy Silverado, or is it ok to have different sheetmetal if everything else is the same? i.e. Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe Just trying to avoid any potential confusion later on.--Flash176 (talk) 00:39, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a good question, but neither it nor its answer is affected by the presence or absence of ...used in other markets in the stipulation for use of the aka field. As I've said before, I don't think there's any practicable way to define a uniform standard for what constitutes identicality for the purposes of the aka field. Wherever we would draw such a line, there would be a vehicle just on the other side of the line for which a cogent and persuasive aka case could be made. The Matrix/Vibe question you raise seems to fit in with the 1st-generation Taurus/Sable situation: Everyone knows and refers to them as twins; nobody says "But wait a minute, they use different door sheet metal!". —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 02:38, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
No, it's not affected by that stipulation, but I'm sure someone's going to bring this up eventually. Personally, I think we should just use common sense and our own judgment, but I know others here will object.--Flash176 (talk) 03:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
To me, different sheetmetal means "related", not "aka". The Vibe and Matrix are not "aka", though they do share as much as possible underneath, and even inside. I do know this whole discussion is just an elaborate attempt at fending off the imminent Taurus-Sable merge, but to me, the Taurus and Sable were akas from day one, regardless of the amount of sheetmetal different. It seems to be a bit of non-exact science here, but let's just go by what we used to. Oh, and please do remove this "in different markets" bit, it is unnecessairly complicting. The Dodge Caravan is as much a Chrysler Voyager as it is a Chrysler Town & Country (and vice versa). Kind, PrinceGloria (talk) 04:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
PrinceGloria, you're contradicting yourself. You say that the Taurus/Sable have been AKA from the start, even when they had different sheetmetal, yet you say the Matrix/Vibe are only related.
Also, I think your statement about "knowing this whole discussion is just an elaborate attempt at fending off the imminent Taurus-Sable merge" is a bit dramatic. Especially since this discussion was started by Scheinwerfermann because I reverted his making the Matrix an AKA of the Vibe due to the wording of the convention.--Flash176 (talk) 04:09, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

If not for the Sable-Taurus thing, I believe we would've done much earlier, but that's just me ;) Anyhoo, I don't know how much effort did Dearborn put into it, the Taurus and Sable do look the same to me. I even think the "ovoid" generation is more differentiated than the original one, but still - it is pretty obvious they ARE the same car. As concerns Matrix and Vibe, I wasn't aware of that until I read about it. That is what I mean. Can't pull out blueprints and check how much sheetmetal is shared... PrinceGloria (talk) 11:18, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I think I understand where you're coming from. I just now looked at the first generation Taurus/Sable, and I do agree with you that they've been the same from the start. They have slightly different front and rear ends, but everything else is the same, save for the Taurus having a slight crease just below the belt line. As for the Matrix/Vibe, they do use completely different sheetmetal, but everything else on them is identical (interior, drivetrain, chassis dimensions). That's why I used them as an example, because I think we need a guideline as to where we draw the line between AKA and related.--Flash176 (talk) 16:05, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
How about we simplify it like this - if a model is merged into another model's article, it is an AKA. If it is a separate article, it is related. Thus, none of the models in the AKA section would have links, and all of the Related models should. Likewise, a new model shouldn't be added to either section until it has been mentioned in the current article or a new article is made for it. And yes, if an article is created for an "aka" model, it would be moved to "related".
This moves the discussion over to "what gets merged and what doesn't?". We can discuss the merge proposals based on how much unique info there is for the similar models. Some "badge engineered" models may warrant separate articles because of the history of those models and unique trim lines; others may not have enough for a new article.
When it comes down to it, I am against having the "aka" section altogether, because it opens up subjective judgment of how "related" one car is to another. Yes, we could define it as "the same car sold in another market where the original market is not sold", but that doesn't specify how similar to the original car it has to be. If we do want two levels of related, then let's make it completely objective - one level based on body style (e.g. 4 door sedan) and another based on the same platform (which can be used for 2-dr, 4-dr, 5-dr, etc.). --Vossanova o< 16:27, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I absolutely agree with the first paragraph. This is how it should be.
As concerns the second, I would be wary about arguing that a model "warrants an article" because of "unique trim lines". If there is so much unique content (which is encyclopedic and all) that the necessary repetition is less of a problem than trying to cover both models in one article, it is obvious that the article should be split. I cannot think of an example now, for the most part North American model articles are rather good merger candidates (case in point - Chrysler minivan articles are 80% repeating each other).
I absolutely do not afee with the third paragraph... Now come on, this will always be a bit of a gray area, but let's be practical about it. There is no point splitting the hair in two. As the last resort, we can always talk controversial cases over, this project is known for heated discussions, but also for eventually coming to good solutions. PrinceGloria (talk) 17:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Vossanova's first paragraph: that's exactly what I've been trying to say. --Sable232 (talk) 21:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

September 23

PrinceGloria, you write I do know this whole discussion is just an elaborate attempt at fending off the imminent Taurus-Sable merge. In fact, you "know" no such thing; you're assuming, and incorrectly at that. As Flash176 more or less correctly asserted, I started this discussion after seeing his change to the Vibe/Matrix. I didn't start it because I think he's wrong, or because I think I'm right. I started it because I saw the aka stipulation contained a spurious restriction. That's all. I have no stake or interest (or opinion, at this point) in a Taurus-Sable merge, so I would ask that you please tone down the shrill reproaches a couple of notches, remember to mind your faith and avoid jumping to conclusions. Thanks in advance.

There've been perpetual & periodic merge/no-merge debates over particular articles on here since forever, and they're not likely to go away any time soon. Chrysler minivans are an excellent example somebody already mentioned, and while I can't recall ever having looked at Mercury Sable, I bet Taurus/Sable is another. But it's not within the scope of this present discussion, eh?

Vossanova, your suggestion if a model is merged into another model's article, it is an AKA. If it is a separate article, it is related might have merit, though I'm not sure it solves the problem without introducing new ones. Consider the Dodge Dart, which was sold in Canada, Argentina, and South Africa as the Chrysler Valiant in certain years. Same sheet metal, same interior, same everything except badges and trim (and RHD instead of LHD in South Africa). There's a Chrysler Valiant article which presently deals with the Australian Chrysler Valiants and is very nearly silent on the subject of South Africa, Canada, or Argentina. That's a separate issue; there were numerous different cars sold as Chrysler Valiants in many countries around the world. The point relevant to this discussion is that your suggestion creates another "Where's the line?" question, this time centred around what content goes in which article(s). Dodge Darts were badged as Chrysler Valiants, so clearly "Chrysler Valiant" belongs in the aka field of Dodge Dart. Okay, now what do we do from there? Expand the Dodge Dart article with an international section that discusses the Valiant-badged Darts? Link to the existing Canada section of Plymouth Valiant and to a (yet to be written) expansion of Chrysler Valiant? Both? I don't see how your suggestion addresses such a situation as this; would you please elaborate? Thanks. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 04:38, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it works to define this by whether the articles are merged or not. Take, for example, the Holden Barina. It has always been a rebadged vehicle from another manufacturer: first a Suzuki, then an Opel, and now a Daewoo. There needs to be a Barina article to explain this succession — it can't just be redirected to one of the three, because that would fail to cover the other two — but it would be simply inaccurate to deny that the Daewoo Kalos is 'also called' the Barina, or that the Opel Corsa used to be.
The field, as it is presented to the ultimate reader, is labelled 'also called'. I don't think it's at all productive to have any further conditions on its use beyond what the reader sees, whether they have to do with different markets or with article organisation. I see that Scheinwerfermann has edited the field's description to read simply 'other names of the subject car/automobile', and am in full agreement with this change. David Arthur (talk) 13:22, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree with David Arthur. I think that merging articles for AKA would be confusing and do more harm than good. "Other names of the subject car/automobile" is a good start, but I think we need to stipulate the difference between the AKA and Related fields. For AKA, should the cars share most sheetmetal and body lines, such as the Chevy Silverado/GMC Sierra or is it ok to have different sheetmetal as long as everything else is the same (interior, drivetrain, chassis) as on the Toyota Matrix/Pontiac Vibe?--Flash176 (talk) 15:13, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it's possible to set up one hard and fast rule that handles all cases, but I would define it from whether the differences have any functional effect. The Matrix and Vibe, for example, look superficially different from outside (although not by that much), but if you were on board one, you'd be hard pressed to tell which version it was by anything other than the logo on the steering wheel. David Arthur (talk) 15:46, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

September 29

Been a few days since anyone's added anything. Are we going to leave it at this or are we going to be a little bit more specific than "other names of the subject car/automobile"?--Flash176 (talk) 06:00, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it's best to leave it as simple as that and work on a case-by-case basis. Practice will tell if we need anything more specific. PrinceGloria (talk) 15:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I second PrinceGloria on this one. Let's leave it be and see how it works. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 19:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Fine by me.--Flash176 (talk) 20:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Agreed. David Arthur (talk) 20:34, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Model years field

Bot

So has anyone put any thought into setting up one of the bots out there to go through all of the articles and change the original 'production' field into one of the newly introduced fields? I've been going through familiar articles slowly, but the bot will be the only comprehensive way to get this done. Thoughts? roguegeek (talk·cont) 02:42, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

We dont have dates to those fields.. --Typ932 T·C 11:33, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm not at all familiar with the available bots, nor with how to write new ones. I agree a bot would probably greatly speed migration, if we could figure out exactly what we want the bot to do (and what we want it not to do). Production-start and production-end data will still have to be entered manually article-by-article, because it requires data with a higher level of specificity not previously contained in the infobox. Perhaps Lightmouse might have some suggestions, or could point us in the right direction…? —Scheinwerfermann T·C20:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)