User talk:Aigest/Archive 3

This is an archive of past discussions about User:Aigest. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

Albanian nationalism mediation

Hi Aigest, I have started a mediation cabal page on Albanian nationalism. If did not write your name in it, however if you want to get involve feel free to write it. —Anna Comnena (talk) 12:51, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Aigest. You have new messages at Codrinb's talk page.
Message added 15:33, 15 December 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

List of Romanian words of possible Dacian origin

Based on your interest, you might find this List of Romanian words of possible Dacian origin interesting. It has many Albanian words added for comparison. I think it speaks about the Thraco-Illyrian connection, and implicitly on the Albanian - Illyrian link.--Codrinb (talk) 15:48, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia-shq

Please respond to this discussion--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:25, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you can help

Maybe you can help with Death of Gramoz Palushi --Vinie007 15:22, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

No sorry can't create a map --Vinie007 16:32, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

What about Aga Ymeri [1]?

Talkback

Hello, Aigest. You have new messages at Codrinb's talk page.
Message added 16:47, 3 January 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Talkback

Hello, Aigest. You have new messages at EdoDodo's talk page.
Message added 16:44, 7 January 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Dacian language collaboration

Hello from WikiProject Dacia!

Since there are so many religious wars going on at the moment around Dacians and their language, we are proposing to all involved to use their creativity, knowledge and energy in creating separate articles for different language affinities. Stop deleting and reverting and start creating!

Instead, expand or create the articles listed at the WikiProject Dacia's Current Collaboration, using as much academic evidence you can gather.

Once these separate articles went through a lot of scrutiny and have reached a good article status, we can discuss the addition of links to the various theories and potentially even add sections about them in the Dacian language and Dacian tribes articles.

Let the Daciada begin! Thanks for your support! --Codrin.B (talk) 16:59, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Svetigrad dates

Hey Aigest. Can you check the dates for the Siege of Svetigrad (1448)? Frasheri seems to suggest that they are different from the ones given in the article.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Aigest. You have new messages at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dacia.
Message added 21:21, 13 January 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

If you wish, please provide input. Thanks and best regards. Codrin.B (talk) 21:21, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Blind reverts

Please participatein the discussion by presenting precise arguments instead of using irrelevant generalisation as justification to make blind reverts in Albanians article.Alexikoua (talk) 14:54, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Please let an administrator decide if this copy-paste job on the background map is a copy-vio. In fact you changed only the fonts, nothing more while you pretented that the bavkground is 'totally new' [[2]]. I'm afraind you need to draw your maps on pd maps in future.Alexikoua (talk) 14:18, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks

Indeed thank you for the kind words. You might want to check some of the work we're doing with the A.M. article. It'll be a slow, difficult process.

Once it is over, I hope to contribute more to Illyrians, including better maps. Coz a.t.m , the maps there are a collage of every single Illyrian tribe ever recorded all superimposed onto each other. What would be more acccurate is to do it time periods. I.e. it is it wrong to have a map of the Autariatae, who 'vanised' in the 2nd century BC, with one of the Docleatae, who were formed by the Romans in the 1st century AD !

Also, I have been thinking, and am of the mind that "Illyrian" languages (an unsatisfactory blanket term, but on which we'll use nevertheless) did not disappear. Apart from "proto-Albanian" (obviously), numerous other indegenous Balkano-Danubian dialects continued to be spoken well into the 7th, even 8th century. Althought this is not attested, the flip side is, we have no clear evidence that Slavic was, in fact, spoken widely/ universally in most of the Balkans until the 8th century AD.

regards Hxseek (talk) 03:46, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Speaking of which, I could use your opinion here [3]

Again, thanks. I haven't been banned, I just can't revert. So I will rely on negotiation and reason (?). I usually adapt andrei nacu's older maps just coast and rivers. I can 'sepiaize' it to make it black. I also use NASA topo maps, depending on what the exact map is for 202.81.69.153 (talk) 11:22, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Also, there is a great article about epirotic tribes in the book conceptions of ethnicity , something along those lines Hxseek (talk) 11:31, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

An early version: eg southern Illyrian tribes, pre-ROman era (& neighbours)

(talk) 06:18, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I have electronic access to CAH. Hammond's chapter is useful guide as far as description of the archaeological findings. However, Hammond's work is methodologically very poor, by today;s standards. Borza was right to criticize him. Hammond concludes that the Macedonians (and Epirotians) were Greek speakers from the Bronze Age based on the situation from the Classical period, on his interpretation of myths and legends, on outdated linguistic theories and archaeological interpretations, without considering the more intricate processes of laguage spread, ethnic flux, diagossia, etc. His work is from the 1950s. It's old school. See Ancient PErceptions of GReek Ethnicity. See J M Hall's chapter and Malkin's chpater about Epirus. Hxseek (talk) 11:06, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Response

Aigest, I am positive that the translation is correct. Pelagos and thalassa both mean "sea." Yes, there exist multiple terms that do describe pretty much the same thing. This should not surprise anyone since languages do tend to create multiple terms to describe a single entity or concept in accordance to dialectical differentiations. Even though I admit that I am not an expert linguist, this statement on my part is definitely valid from a sociological standpoint. Keep in mind, however, that other etymological analyses of the term "Pelasgian" have led some scholars to believe that the term is derived from pelargos meaning "bird." I would not know exactly the exact reason for this specific etymology, but it nevertheless exists if you conduct proper research. As for the potential relation between the Pelasgians and the sea, this may have something to do with the Sea People or at least with the fact that the autochthonous populations of Greece were aware of seafaring techniques. You state that Pelasgos = Pellg (pool) in a linguistic attempt to prove that there is a connection between the Albanians and the Pelasgians. This would make sense on your part since you think that because there is a possible Greek etymology behind the term "Pelasgian" that there should also be an Albanian etymology. However, I would not put too much faith in linguistics. Even with the possible Greek etymology I gave you for the term "Pelasgian," I would prefer placing all logical assumptions and assertions onto direct archaeological and literary evidence. Deucalionite (talk) 18:07, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello Deucalionite. I would like to make it more clear. I didn't want to say that Pelasgian = Pellg = Pool. It was a mot:) All I wanted to say is that the term Pelasgian and the level of knowledge about them is so vague, that you can not say a thing with certainty. But one of the things that we know for sure by ancient historians is that there were not famous seamen (just like Phoenicians for example). Every time they were mentioned by ancient historians they were described like good farmers, stockbreeders and builders (the foundation wall of Acropolis for example). They didn't had a large fleet, a developed trade with overseas, or a great influence on the sea, that's why they are not mentioned by other populations of that time (Egyptians for example). That's why I think that this translation doesn't stand. But I support your opinion about moving them to another section, since there is not a scientific certainity about them. I may add also that in the article about Albania and Illyrian articles, should be a reference to them as a descendace theory. Best regards :) Aigest (talk) 15:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is true that the Pelasgians were not the greatest seafarers. However, shipbuilding and seafaring techniques have been used in the Aegean for countless millenia. Moreover, if the Pelasgians were to have constituted members of the Sea People, then that automatically proves that a tribe does not really have to be seasoned in the art of seafaring in order to "come from the sea." In short, just because the Pelasgians were not great seafarers does not automatically mean that they were not aware of the overall concept. Every tribe has its concentration in terms of how it manages its style of subsistence living. However, it would not be prudent to underestimate the ability of any culture to establish seafaring techniques even if they are not as sophisticated as those established by the Minoans or the Phoenicians. Also, keep in mind that you do not need a large fleet to understand seafaring or to utilize basic shipbuilding techniques. As for the Pelasgian language, it is well known that it is linguistically unclassified. However, ancient historical records state that it is a crude form of Greek that I highly doubt would have been intelligible to even Herodotus himself. This would make sense since it was not an uncommon phenomenon to see many tribes in the Greek world deliberately make their dialects into separate languages so that they can further define their respective forms of political, tribal, and territorial independence. This sociological phenomenon may explain why Herodotus had a hard time differentiating between Greek dialects and foreign languages that were entirely different from Greek. Of course, do not expect to establish a perfect linguistic correlation between classical Greek (or even proto-Greek) with Pelasgian. The former was more organized, eloquent and advanced in contrast to the "barbaric" linguistic dynamics of Pelasgian. Moreover, I would not be surprised if no one were to be able to establish such a correlation since the "linguistic distance" between Greek and Pelasgian grew despite the fact that Greek was a branch of Pelasgian (in accordance to Herodotus). However, keep in mind that one should never put too much faith in linguistics. The translation I gave you (Pelasgian = Pelagos = Sea) is not supposed to prove linguistically that the Pelasgians were Greek. To me, the Pelasgians were primitive Greeks (before the term "Greek" became popular) in accordance to literary and archaeological evidence. Therefore, trying to prove a culture's identity only through linguistics sounds a bit narrow-minded in my book. In short, since there is little linguistic evidence pertaining to how the Pelasgians spoke, it would be prudent to base our understanding of them according to literary and archaeological evidence. That way, no one establishes needless claims and outrageous assumptions about them. I hope this analysis is helpful. Deucalionite (talk) 15:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Greetings Deucalionite. My point was about that translation. I don't know if it was original research or a citation. Anyway when you are naming populations their names comes from something. It may be their leader, their territory or their characteristic. None of them relates pelasgian to that translation. You by yourself can see that is very difficult to translate something from Pelasgian. All you mentioned above are only assumptions and not scientifically proved. That's why I insisted on that translation. My point is that they (Pelasgians) formulate the population of Balkans in ancient times. That's why their heritage can be claimed by Thracians, Illyrians and Greeks, without leaving aside the population of the isles. I only opposed the translation. You presented it as a true and I simply rejected based on the above mentioned arguments. I did that because there are a lot of hypothesis about that name even from albanian claims, just an example...(((Pelarg-p(i)ell arg (white race in abanian)) you should remember that the oldest form of that was named as Peelargios from Herodotus (I can not write it in Greek but it was definitly a (r) and not a (s) in that script))). But I didn't discused them because I think that they should have a scientific validity and that I was asking from your translation. Best Regards. Aigest (talk) 16:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Faleminderit

Per cfare kam nevoje,per artikuj me me shume referenca,per me shume Shqipetar qe tju digjohet veshi ketu ne Wikipedia e mos tju reshkas asnjegje, se Greket po na shkruajne historine tani.Edhe njehere te falenderoj se je i pari qe po me ofron ndihme.Rofsh plako!--Taulant23 (talk) 09:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Shumë mirë lale,unë sapo ndryshova fillimin,hidhi një sy!--Taulant23 (talk) 09:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Linku është i mirë,periudha Greke u vu pasi disa prej tyre donin të bënin lidhjen midis Ilirëve. Se kam qef fare por si thua ti? Shtova disa gjëra të reja,ora ketej o 3 e natës, skom më fuqi.Roftë Shqipëria jonëp.s. se harrova ti e ke anglishten më të fortë lale dhe ke më shumë njohuri,bravo, të lumtë!--Taulant23 (talk) 11:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Response II

Like I said before Aigest (and this applies to the translation I gave you), I recommend not putting too much faith in linguistics. Chances are that the Pelasgians were named after Pelasgus who was supposedly their leader. Who knows exactly why the Pelasgians were named Pelasgians. The point of the matter is that the Pelasgians were primitive Greeks according to ancient literary sources (despite the supposed "confusion" that exists between them) and archaeological evidence. Of course, there are other theories about the Pelasgians. However, theories are just theories unless supported by direct physical evidence. Just arguing over linguistics does not always provide the results we expect. Moreover, linguistic terminologies are never established along logical routes of expression since people can invent terms that merely help produce an aesthetic sound rather than a practical term that directly reflects a concept or phenomenon. Please do not insist too much on the translation. Insist on acquiring and presenting direct physical evidence. Once you get that, then you can debate linguistics. Just so you know, the only reason I gave the translation of Pelasgian = Pelagos = Sea was because it was one of many scholarly etymologies available today. This is not original research on my part. I know that if you conduct a little research, you will find this etymology somewhere. Of course, this translation does not necessarily mean it is the only one available. Whether it is right or wrong does not bother me at all. I am happy with the literary and archaeological evidence describing the identity of the Pelasgians. Best regards. Deucalionite (talk) 17:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC).

In that case most studies linguistic and archeological declare that Albanians descend from Illyrians. Of course there are other theories, but they need to be examined and supported by scientific methods. But from what I have seen in this article about Albania, this logic you are saying has not been followed. More efforts have been concentrated on the "other" theories, than trying to understand the other guy. And of course there are a lot of comments and writings on Albanian language by people who doesn't know albanian in the first place (I am a linguist myself:)), I am not accusing somebody, but this behaviour deteriorates the quality of the articles (I have my own resposability for not being here). In any case I want to leave Pelasgians (in the first sources they were mentioned as Πελαργος διοι) out of it, until a further research. They shoud have their space and their theories. Anyway I will try to improve the article on Albania and especially Albanian language because it is in a pitiful situation. Best Regards Aigest (talk) 21:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Let me give you some advice Aigest. It would be in your best interest to find some reliable and accurate archaeological sources supporting an Albanian-Illyrian connection. The "Antiquity" section of the Albania article does contain some information pertaining to the archaeological excavations conducted in Albania. However, keep in mind that misinterpretations of archaeological evidence will hurt whatever position you hope to establish. I am not saying this to downplay the possibility of an Albanian-Illyrian connection. However, you do have the right to know the risks that all users face when presenting misinterpreted data as something valid. Therefore, please provide full citations so that you can completely convince other users that you are serious about what you are contributing. Here's a tip. Adding a direct quote from a reliable source and placing it as a citation in an article helps to enhance verifiability.

Overall, I am glad to hear that you are willing enough to improve the Albania article. Yes, it needs a lot of work. Just so you know, it took me a while to convince Taulant23 to accept the removal of the Pelasgians section from the Albania article since it was completely bereft of any strong scientific and/or literary evidence. I advise that you do not create any new sections with questionable sources or content because other users will tear them apart. Remember, you are a new user here and you should always be bold in your edits. That means that you should never be afraid to take risks in terms of presenting new information and/or new evidence. However, you should also be smart and understand that all of your contributions will be put to the test. If your contributions are accepted, then many users will appreciate your insights pertaining to the articles you have helped improve. If your contributions, on the other hand, are rejected, then you must develop a new plan and spend more time finding more reliable and more accurate sources to support your arguments. Even though you are a linguist, you need to first focus your energies on gathering physical evidence. Ancient literary sources are helpful, but should not be misinterpreted (as is often the case in some articles). However, investing your time studying archaeological evidence could pay off. And even if it doesn't, then your goals should be oriented towards providing accurate and reliable information for all readers to appreciate.

I know that we all have axes to grind and biases to express (even neutrality is logically considered a "bias of no bias"). However, this does not mean that academic standards should be seriously neglected. In case you are wondering why I am helping you, it's because you need to know what needs to be done if you want to be taken seriously. I have tried to advise both Taulant23 and Pirro Burri about what they needed to do to prove their respective cases. They did not listen very well and needless forms of disruption ensued. Even though they are your compatriots, they have not done much to benefit the Wikipedia community even though I have tried to help them. Please do not make the same mistakes they have made. It is ultimately your choice and I hope you make the right one since Wikipedia does need Albanian users who honestly know things about Albania that other users don't. Best regards and good luck tackling the Albania article. Deucalionite (talk) 22:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok I will try to be more archeological:), but this doesn't mean I have to put aside linguistics:). Best Regards Aigest (talk) 08:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Albanian as Epiriotes

I ask your support to come to consensus for the following statement supported by references in Albania article

Section :Albanian as Epiriotes

This is my agreement taking in consideration both opinions:

According to sources dating back to the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries, Scanderbeg's Albanians and Ali Pasha's kingdom were both associated with Epirus. Same of Modern scholarship, nevertheless, regards the associations between Albania and Epirus to be mainly geographical (regal in the case of Scanderbeg). However, Albanians today do not agree with this argument since they consider Epirus as part of their identity and the Albanian language as "Epirotic". But this is oppose by the Greeks because in the ancient Epirus existed the Pelasgic tribes of Selles, or Helles, and the Graiki, whose names were afterwards taken to denote the Hellenes, or Greeks; however both nations have claimed Pelasgic ancestry..

References :

1.’Pjeter Bogdani Cuneus ProphetarumCvnevs prophetarvm de Christo salvatore mvndi et eivs evangelica veritate, italice et epirotice contexta, et in duas partes diuisa a Petro Bogdano Macedone, Sacr. Congr. de Prop. Fide alvmno, Philosophiae & Sacrae Theologiae Doctore, olim Episcopo Scodrensi & Administratore Antibarensi, nunc vero Archiepiscopo Scvporvm ac totivs regni Serviae Administratore" (The Band of the Prophets Concerning Christ, Saviour of the World and his Gospel Truth, edited in Italian and Epirotic and divided into two parts by Pjetër Bogdani of Macedonia, student of the Holy Congregation of the Propaganda Fide, doctor of philosophy and holy theology, formerly Bishop of Shkodra and Administrator of Antivari and now Archbishop of Skopje and Administrator of all the Kingdom of Serbia) (The Band of the Prophets)”Albanian Academy of Science Tirane 2005’’

2.’ ‘Albanians, a martial race, were unanimous to live and die with their hereditary prince" and that "in the assembly of the states of Epirus, Skanderbeg was elected general of the Turkish war and each of the allies engaged to furnish his respective proportion of men and money’’Source :Edward Gibbon, 1788, History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Volume 6, Scanderbeg section

3.Ali Pashe kingdom 1744-1822 who was prescribed by british poet Bajron in his poem Childe Harold Source : "Albania" A Dictionary of World History. Oxford University Press, 2000. Oxford Reference Online.

4.Source :Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum On the basis of the original edition Dictionarium Latino Epiroticum, per R.D. Franciscum Blanchum, Romae: Typis Sac.Congr.de Propag. Fide. 1635 [29]

5.Reference .' 'Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania' Source : A Heroic Tale: Marin Barleti's Scanderbeg between orality and literacy Minna Skafte Jensen (b. 1937) Ass. professor of Greek and Latin, Copenhagen University, 1969-93. Professor of Greek and Latin, University of Southern Denmark, 1993-2003. Member of the Danish, Norwegian and Belgian Academies of Sciences and Letters. Main fields of research: Archaic Greek epic and the oral-formulaic theory; Renaissance Latin poetry in Denmark [30]

6. Reference : The Albanians (more of an ethnographic than a geographic term) are called Arnauts (Arnaoots, Arnaouts) by the other peoples of the Balkan peninsula; they give themselves the name of Skipetars or "mountaineers". They claim descent from the Epirots and Illyrians, and, like the latter, have always been distinguished by their warlike spirit Source: Albania Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [4]

7. Reference : Near it are the ruins of the temple of Dodona, the cradle of pagan civilization in Greece. This oracle uttered its prophecies by interpreting the rustling of oak branches; the fame of its priestesses drew votaries from all parts of Greece. In this neighbourhood also dwelt the Pelagic tribes of Selles, or Helles, and the Graiki, whose names were afterwards taken to denote the Hellenes, or Greeks.: Source: Albania.Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [5]

8. Reference : Emperor Diocletian, carried out an administrative reform in the Roman Empire by constituting prefectures, dioceses and provinces. In conformity with this reorganisation, the Albanian territory was divided into three provinces: Praevalitana, with Shkodra (Shkodër) as its administrative centre, Epirus Nova, Dyrrachium as its capital, and Epirus Vetus, with its central city at Nikopois. The latter two were part of the Macedonian diocese. The dioceses of Dacia and Macedonia were constituent parts of the prefecture of Illyricum, which comprised the entire Balkans. Source Albanian identity by Antonina Zhelyazkova 1999.. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA [6]

9. Reference :The ancient Epirus and Illyria, is the most western land occupied by the Turks in Europe. Its extreme length is about 290 miles, and its breadth from forty to ninety miles. On the west and southwest it is bounded by the Adriatic and the Ionian seas. It is generally divided into three regions: Upper Albania, from the Montenegrin frontier to the river Shkumbi; Lower Albania, or Epirus, from the Shkumbi to the Gulf of Arta; and Eastern Albania, to the east of the Schar-Dagh chain. Source: Albania Written by Elisabeth Christitch. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I. Published 1907. New York: Robert Appleton Company. Nihil Obstat, March 1, 1907. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York [7]Dodona --Burra (talk) 18:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

notice

notice, just copying your it-5 template to add it to the page category: it-5, thanks. Cristian Cappiello (talk) 16:54, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Souliotes

Shyqyr zotit, qe doli nje rob ketu, se ja fusin aq kot, pa pasur asnje reference, thjesht duke bere zhurme. I kam mbyt me referenca dhe po bejne kot, thjesht qe te mos e fusin ashtu sic eshte. Rrofsh!Balkanian`s word (talk) 16:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Mendimi yt

Te lutem merr pjese ketu. Kam propozuar ndyrhsimin e emrit te Kacanikut.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Marko Bocari, futi nje revert faqes, se na cmenden, une jam ne prag te thyerjes se 3rr ndaj sdua ta bej vete.Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:52, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian language

Thanks for the heads up on Illyrian. The article is looking a lot better now than it was before. The examples are really good. The mandos/mëz one has been noted before. Azalea pomp (talk) 08:03, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Latin Element

I think the Albanian lexicon section should be expanded. There should be more about the inherited Indo-European elements in Albanian, the unknown (substratum?) element, Latin loans, Greek loans, Slavic loans, and Germanic loans. There are also some disputes between what is inherited IE vocabulary versus what is a Latin loan with some Albanian words. Here is an interesting section on page 11 (first paragraph) of this source: http://books.google.com/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA11&dq=albanian+durres+language+indo-european

It quotes Shaban Demiraj on some geographic terms such as Durrës. Azalea pomp (talk) 08:50, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Botsaris

I know but we cannot add primary sources, like Finlay. If we could there would be Byron and Pouqeuville who new Botsaris first hand, both friends of him, who say that he was Albanian.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Albanian lexicon continued

Wow, Aigest, all of that looks great. I have found a website which has all of Demiraj's Albanian inherited lexicon online: http://www.indoeuropean.nl/cgi-bin/query.cgi?root=leiden&morpho=0&basename=\data\ie\alb

Do you think we should create a new wikipedia page for the Albanian lexicon? Should we title it Albanian vocabulary maybe? Azalea pomp (talk) 18:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian languages

Your edits seem fine to me. Your sources are plentiful and easy to verify. I don't see why a problem has arisen.

Btw: I have planned to expand the Illyrian Wars article. I will use Polybius's Histories as my main source. Do you know of any other primary sources I can use? Thanks.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:28, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

My main intention was just to ask for the Roman-Illyrian wars and revolts.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:39, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. About the Skanderbeg article: I agree with your proposal. Perhaps we should do certain years where major campaigns took place also.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 00:48, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I've never read Kristo Frasheri's works. Most of the history I use is based on modern Western European writers. I have limited access to the primary sources for Skanderbeg. I do, however, have the book that his personal biographer wrote and finished in 1480. His name is - in Albanian - Dhimitër Franko. It was found in 1990 in a Venetian library.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Again, thanks for the help. When I get the chance, I'll be working on it.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:29, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Great

Thats cool, I think that I can find the manifesto itself, por prit te shoh ne biblioteken e shtepise, se eshte ne nje liber me duket. See you, Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Albanian Dialects info

Do you have access of resources or knowledge of Albanian dialects such as the dialects of Kruja and Mat? Azalea pomp (talk) 00:10, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

MAVI

What do you propose on it? Lets remake it!Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Thats cool. On Mavi, I have not read the article, so I will do it later. ThnxBalkanian`s word (talk)

Interesante

Te dyja jane shume interesante, problemi eshte qe nuk kam as librin e Cabanesit as te Antonetit, per t`i referuar. Ti e di qe smund ti perdorim pa reference, ky eshte problemi. Nejse, do ia gjejme zgjidhjen :-)Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:12, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Illyrians, etc

yep. I replied on the talk page of the article Hxseek (talk) 11:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Illyrian languages & Thracian

In the coming months I want to give more of my time to the Paleo-Balkan languages. I want these articles to eventually be as sharp and informative as they can be. Right now I'm going to be away from the internet for about a week. The editors here who seem to be knowledgable on the subject at this website so far are you, me, User:Zenanarh and a few others. I'll be back :) Alex (talk) 21:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

re: albanian language

The part I removed is repeated elsewhere at the top of the page, as are the references. I have contributed in the past, but surely won't in the future, given the page's chaotic nature.

Flibjib8 (talk) 22:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Thracian phonetics

I don't have any comprehensive websites or publications to recommend, I gathered info over the years from various sources, such as [http://soltdm.com/langtdm/phon/phon_0.htm . I live in Los Angeles and I first started studying the Paleo-Balkan languages in 2004 really, and in this city those kind of publications are hard to find, I mostly had to search the internet, but I managed to find a lot about Thracian phonetics that I pieced together kind of; for example if PIE *bh became "ph" in Greek, it became "b" in Thracian; if Greek had Halmyris, in Thracian you would see Sal-; PIE *dh in *dheigh- became "th" in Greek but "d" in Thracian "diza" (and *gh often became "z" in Thracian, as in *dheigh=diza). Alex (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, Proto-Indo-European to Dacian sound changes was mostly compiled by User:MariusA (however he mostly did not sign in and used numerical IP addresses in the edit history). I alerted him about the No Original research policy in early 2006 on the talk page, and he did try to provide references and sources, but there may still be original research or a "synthesis" of primary sources or something, which is also original research (User:Dbachmann a few days ago added the template warning about original synthesis). However, the information does look pretty good, indeed I would say given the state of Thraco-Dacian linguistics, it is about top-notch. But I'm sure there is a lot there that is disputed in the field. On another topic, these days a "Dacian-Thracian" grouping is not argued against by many (there is not a good case for those arguing that they are, for example, as distant as Thracian & illyrian are to each other); but it is also not really disputed that there is a Dacian linguistic area and a "Thracian-proper" linguistic area, with overlap and possibly a transitional "Moesian" area (Moesia). That Olteanu site I linked before actually has some good information on the Dacian and Thracian linguistic areas, and Moesian. Alex (talk) 08:45, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Edit warring

You are in danger of violating the three-revert rule on Illyrians. Please cease further reverts or you may be blocked from editing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:16, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Skanderbeg

Haha, I don't mind at all. I'm actually quite happy that I'm no longer the only one trying to maintain the article. :) Thank you.

By the way, I have a question about the siege of Sfetigrad. Did the siege of Sfetigrad occur in 1448 or 1449? Sources differ, and the ones that are specializing in the study of Skanderbeg usually say 1449, at least as far as I know. It should be worth noting that Skanderbeg's personal biographer ([8])says 1449. Other sources, like encyclopedias and general histories of the crusades say 1448. Do you know what other historians say? Thanks.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Your edits are great. One can feel that Skanderbeg is now being treated as an actual historical figure instead of a semi-legendary epic hero like Achilles for example as compared to the article in its former state. By the way, have you ever thought about working on a separate article for the Albanian-Turkish wars? I was thinking maybe someone could create this and a group of people could work on it, including not only Skanderbeg, but also Gjergj Arianit, Gjon Kastrioti and also some lesser known objects and events. What do you think?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:36, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I made some style changes and fixed some typos on the first two sections. Other than these minor errors, I don't see anything wrong with your contributions. Also, I agree that there should be a separate article for diplomacy. I will try to contribute a lot more to these articles when summer break begins. Until then, good luck with your edits!--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Përshëndetje Aigest. Faleminderit per mesazhin. E di që po përgjigjem shumë vonë, por mendove që ta shkruaj tani. Unë e kam parë korrigjimet e tuaj, dhe mendoj që e ke bërë shumë mirë. Unë s'kam sugjerim, vetëm për të thuaj që ta vazdozh cfare po bene. Megjithate, une do filloj te punoj me artikullet e shqiperise ne mesjete. Do mundoj ta perkthej atikullen e gjerg arianitit nga shqip ne anglisht edhe te shkruaj artikull per rethimin e sfqetigradit. Po do te ndihmosh, te lutem na ndihmo. Me fal po nuk e kupton dot shqipen t'ime se e kam harruar fare. :D Me gjithe te mirat--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:06, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Of course!

I can help everyone who talks with facts and references,if you want you can use my article,or even modify it,if you think that something is not proper,but you should always use references for your edits.--Jurgen^talk 20:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC) 18:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Illyrians

Duhet shtuar ne zerin legacy me shume per prejardhjen, aty e ka vendin. ne hyrje mjafton nje fjali. Pershendetje, Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:18, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I have no plenty time right now, but I think that the whole page Origins of Albanians should be rewritten, in the context of what the majority of scholars belive (of course with secondary sources). The illyrian hypothesis is the overwhelmingly accepted by scholars and as such should be written in that page, which can be traced on 2 or three sections, on the other hand there are some problems with this theory (first subsection of 3rd or 4th section:-)) and other theories like dacian or thracian origin (second subsection of 3rd or 4th section:-)). Cheers,Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:36, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Hey ;-)

What do you think about including this photo on the Illyrians page...it looks pretty cool. Interestedinfairness (talk) 14:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/luke/ueda-sarson/Illyrians.jpg

(Interestedinfairness (talk) 14:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)).

Have you by any chance read, the Crescent and the Eagle: Ottoman Rule, Islam and the Albanians, 1874-1913 by George Gawrych? Thanks for your suggested reading by the way, looks good. Interestedinfairness (talk) 11:46, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Chams

Actually, national hero does not mean necessarily hero kombetar, in the way it is used in the Albanian language, but a hero of the nation. Mos harro se edhe Azem Hajdari eshte hero kombetar ne Shqiperi zyrtarisht, edhe pse kjo nuk perdoret nga qytetaret. But, there is no problem with your edit.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Hidh nje sy te te gjitha artikujt per Camet, i gjen te template:Cham Albanians. E kam perfshire pjesen juridike edhe te Cham issue edhe te seksioni perkates ne faqen kryesore Cham Albanians#Cham issue. Pres mendimin tend.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:22, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

WP:ARBMAC notification

In a 2007 arbitration case, administrators were given the power to impose discretionary sanctions on any user working on articles concerning the Balkans. Before any such sanctions are imposed, editors are to be put on notice of the decision. This notice is issued in view of your edits to Illyrians. It is not to be taken as implying any inappropriate behaviour on your part, merely to warn you of the Arbitration Committee's decision. Thank you. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:58, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Aigest, the above note is a standard notification template, but I wanted to add a note that comments such as [9] do nothing to improve the discussion and could be understood as a violation of Wikipedia policy on personal attacks. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:01, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

You're right, that comment isn't a personal attack. Sorry for the mistake.

However, this doesn't mean that your participation at Talk:Illyrians isn't problematic. You are misunderstanding or misrepresenting the comments of other editors, such that it is becoming disruptive. Editors such as Dbachmann, Athenean, and kwami say that Illyrians should mention the Illyrian-Albanian connection and that theories about this should be detailed at Origins of the Albanians. You are responding as if those editors wanted to eliminate all mention of the Albanians, which is false. In the future, please make sure to read and understand what editors are actually saying, and respond to their actual arguments. Otherwise, I will topic-ban you from Illyrians and related articles under the provisions of WP:ARBMAC. --Akhilleus (talk) 13:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

How can we work in here when they even delete our own sentence [10] [11] How can we deal with these users when all the southern cities of Albania are turned in a mess of Greek nationalistic propaganda.

I give Aigest a lot of credit for trying to find a common language with them and bringing reliable sources specially in his latest work the Illyrians.His work is to be admired.In the other hand users like me are avoiding editing this pages and giving up on Wikipedia.Best regards --Taulant23 (talk) 05:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Artikujt

Aigest edhe njehere bravo per punen dhe referencat qe sjell ketu. Ky perdorues qe po na jep kaq shume probleme ka kohe qe une merrem me te,2 vjet po e po.Si maskara qe eshte,ndryshoi edhe akauntin e tij dhe emrin.Tani na hiqet si njeri tjeter.Kot per merak,shko shiko discussion tek qytetet e jugut ose tek Epiri i Veirut aty i ke gomarlliqet e tij.

Mbaj mend ne Iliret si artikull e mbaruam, vume dhe lidhjen me Shqipetaret.Si tek gjuha si tek disa libra etj.Nuk zgjati shume dhe çdo gje u fsheh,autoret e librave mbi Iliret u bene pseudoautor,shtremberruan fjalite,gjerisa arriten sot te vene Nationalistic ideas..Jane dhe dy te tjere te cilat kane biles edhe 2 akaunte (kuptohet nga Anglishtja the IP adresa) qe veprojne ne menyre te njejte.

I kane bere qytet e jugut Greke te tera.Keshtu ndodhi edhe me artikullin mbi Shqiperine, kur luftuan te heqin si pjesen mbi Iliret,Pellasget etj.Me Pellasget une u dorezova pasi isha dhe vetem por edhe pse nuk gjeta ndonje liber ta mbeshteti kete fakt.Per Iliret jam zene shume me keta.Jane nacionalista te medhej. Duhet vepruar me gjakftohesi,dhe zgjuarsi.Duhet gjetur ne nje menyre a tjetren se si ti psh te behesh admin ose pse jo te gjejme nje admin tanin.Nje menyre tjeter eshte te ankohemi diku kur na digjojne dhe te sjellim same shume informacione.Gjithesesi nuk behet karar me keta qelbesira,jane shume te poshter,çdo gje qe ti sjell ta hedhin posht..Une do mundohem te te ndihmoj por puna dhe shkolla me zene pjesen me te madhe te javes.Flasim,--Taulant23 (talk) 21:43, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Shko pak ketu [12] te shikojme mos bejme ndonje gje te hajrit.--Taulant23 (talk) 21:52, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Hidhi nje sy kesaj harte.[13] --Taulant23 (talk) 23:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

MSN

Kur te mundesh me dergo msn-in tend, qe te flasim te tere atje per wikipedian --Sarandioti (talk) 22:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Suffix used to form nouns from verbs in Alb.

If I want to get more serious about studying Paleo-Balkan languages, I'll have to acquire specialized books on the Albanian language. Till then do you know the suffix used to form nouns (drinker) from verbs (drink) in Albanian? This is concerning (leader) and (lead). It looks clear that Illyric/Delmatic like Liburnian/Venetic/Greek/Latin and some other IE languages in historic times still had the -tor suffix to form nouns from verbs (see pre-Roman Venetic inscriptions and Illyric/Delmatic names). Alex (talk) 04:16, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

pi-pijës (drink, drinker), prij-prijës(lead, leader). Aigest (talk) 16:12, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

This is an important topic so I think it would be useful to look into this more: murator is from Latin, as is murus (wall); punetor is from Latin; blegtor (bleg maybe is from South slavic bleka? I'll check) appears to be a noun+ -tor suffix? I was looking though a list of Albanian words beginning with the letter B and it was not in English so it was hard to tell, but I identified no clear examples of verb+-tor suffix, leaving aside loanwords such as buxhetor (budgeter; which is also noun+-tor), bukator (cook). Well, this is important for the Illyric studies, so I will search for more about this. Alex (talk) 03:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Iliret

Faktikisht ate bera, e ke te f 57Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Une nuk kam kohe, por teoria ilire, duhet ndare medoemos ne nen seksione per lidhjet gjuhesore (shpjegim i gjate), lidhje arkeologjike (aq sa jane), lidhje historike (ku hammondi eshte perfekt), etj etj. Nuk duhet te jete me pika.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Plako

See If you can help. [14] and here [15] --Taulant23 (talk) 20:56, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank yoiu for the links.They are a great.--Taulant23 (talk) 21:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

lol man I was just thinking of you look at this [16] you and me have been here for a long time, hehehe.Got the message!!--Taulant23 (talk) 06:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

The genetic links are AWESOME,dude GREAT JOB!!Taulant23 (talk)

You earn it, the Albanian Barnstar of National Merit.BRAVO!!! check ur userpage.--Taulant23 (talk) 07:18, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

u bubu dako po na le pa gjume,pune e bukur..--Taulant23 (talk) 07:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

They woke up the dragon

Hm apparently (King and Underhill 2008)[59] just like Battaglia have contradicted Cruciani about the Bronze age, they go more with estimation of Battaglia "The calculated expansion time of haplogroup E3b1a2- V13 in mainland Greece is 8,600 y BP at Nea Nikomedeia and 9,200 y BP at Lerna/Franchthi Cave and is consistent with the late Mesolithic/initial Neolithic horizon. These dates exceed those reported previously for Europe (Cruciani et al., 2007) that date to the Bronze Age. This discrepancy arises mainly because of differences in the choice of mutation rate used." and also the Pericic data are also discussed because higher values of E-V13 are found in mainland Greece "One can point to another post-colonization population influx into Crete (1100 BC) this time from Greece, as represented by V13 which occurs at ca. 35% frequency in both Thessaly and the Peloponnese while its frequency on Crete is only 7%, indicating a mainland contribution to the Cretan Y chromosome inventory, albeit no more than 20%.". So more likely that the E-V13 mutation happened in Neolithic in South Balkans (Battaglia 2008,Underhill 2008) Regarding the actual Albanian population the E-M78 is represented only by E-V13, giving the closed nature of Albanian society, the absence of other markers (otherwise some other markes should have been retained) indicate that at least they were no near Anatolian area (as for the E-M78). If the data of Underhill are to be confirmed the frequency of E-V13 in continental Greeks (35%) is surprisingly similar with that of the Albanians (32%). If it originated in South Balkans (Thessaly area I suppose) that puts the contribution of E-V13 to the neighboring populations of regions of South Illyria, Ancient Macedonia and Thracia. Since there are no other markers of E-M78 except for E-V13 in current Albanian population that puts them in Macedonia or South Illyria (we are speaking of Neolithic here no nations just regions) just for the Hg E contribution. As for the Hg J contribution also in the current Albanian population is represented mostly by M12/M102 (14.3%) with some contributions from M67 (3.6%), M267 (3.6%) and M92 (1.8%). According to Semino 2004 J-M12(M102) shows its maximum frequency in the Balkans. In spite of the relative high value of variance of this haplogroup in Turkey (Cinnioğlu et al. 2004)—which, however, could be due to multiple arrivals—the pattern of distribution and the network of J-M12(M102) (figs. 2 and 4) are consistent with its diffusion in Europe from the southern Balkans again the distribution in Europe from Southern Balkans Again here the subgroup M172* itself (expanded in Anatolia region and in Greece an Macedonia) it is not represented in current Albanian population just like the Croat population. The M12 is considered to have followed the Adriatic route (N-C Italians 9.6%, Croatians 6.2%, Greeks 6.5% no presence in Hyngary). It is too much to consider again a genetic drift for the current Albanian population (It should have been very selective and smart gene selecting only E-V13 and M12 for the current Albanian population:)). So in the end considering what is to be the contribution of HgE and HgJ in the current Albanian population it is with a big % presented by population generated in South Balkans which moved North and West (Semino M12 west, also Battaglia V13 and M12 West, while Cruciani North and West) propably in Neolithic times (Battaglia 2008, Underhill 2008) and small signs of Anatolian connection (M67 (3.6%), M267 (3.6%) and M92 (1.8%) which could also have arrived through Adriatic sea just like in Puglia or North Italy). As for the HgI as I remember the conclusions of Rootsi 2004 "Nonetheless, the I1a data in Scandinavia are consistent with a post-LGM recolonization of northwestern Europe from Franco-Cantabria, whereas the expansion of I1b* in the east Adriatic–North Pontic continuum probably reflects demographic processes that began in a refuge area located in that region" so the refuge for the population regarding I1b* should have been in that line east Adriatic–North Pontic, an imaginary line from Dalmacia to Moldova peaks (24.1%) descending through Southern Balkans (Albanians 17%, Greeks 8.4%) and not in Peloponesium or Anatolia. Also is interesting that is not presented in Northern Italia (1%). Nice work!!--Taulant23 (talk) 07:37, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Valle

Bah, I dont think it shows changes on the rythm. Make me a favour, kerko ne internet nje Çamçe te vertete, se une nuk jam dhe aq i mire ne dallimin mes çamçes dhe valleve te tjera çame dhe mund ta kem ngaterruar. ok?Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:13, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Bera ca ndryshime te origjina e shqiptareve, ke kohe ta ripunojme pjesen per origjinen ilire, sepse per mua duhet ndare ne nenseksione, ka shume material, per te qene vetem e pikezuar.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:29, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

PIE sk' to h

Well, the one I gave demonstrates that s becomes h when it is an s followed by the k'. Typically, PIE *sk' yields h in Albanian. But, you should also include other outcomes of PIE *s in Albanian if there are any. PIE *s becomes many many things in Albanian depending on the surrounding consonants and also possible ancient interdialectal borrowing. Azalea pomp (talk) 02:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the PIE *sk(')- change to h would predate the "sc" Latin loans in ALbanian becoming shk. The *sk(') to h is a very regular sound change from PIE to Albanian. Demiraj has Albanian yll coming from PIE *h1eus-, but Pokorny has it coming from *sūl. Other s(')k words include Albanian ah coming from PIE *Hosk- and possibily hënë from PIE *sken-. Azalea pomp (talk) 07:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

We could include consonant clusters in the table as PIE consonant clusters show how distinct Albanian is in its outcomes of PIE to Albanian as compared to other IE branches. Azalea pomp (talk) 07:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Nice find with heq btw. :) Azalea pomp (talk) 07:12, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Let's divide the table: consonants, consonant clusters, and vowels? Azalea pomp (talk) 07:14, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

You can divide the table as much as you think it should be. I think perhaps certain consonant cluster like *k'r- should be with *k'-. The PIE palatals evolve differently when they are in certain consonant clusters in Albanian than in other IE languages which gju and krah demonstrate this. Azalea pomp (talk) 07:33, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we should divide the table into consonants and vowels first and see how that looks after we include some consonant clusters in. I think we should just put *k'r etc with *k', *sk' with *s etc for simplicity. Azalea pomp (talk) 07:54, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I think that should work. We can see how it looks. Azalea pomp (talk) 08:05, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Faleminderit

Nuk e kam sot ditelindjen, por faleminderit ne advance:). Do perpiqem ta shkruaj kete te origjines, por te lutem futu pak te diskutimi per camet, se po me cmendin me budallalleqe. Rrofsh:)Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:30, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Te lutem hidhi nje sy, se eshte nje nacionalist qe ska dy gram tryu, qe po me cme ndaty te camet.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:00, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Ckemi, e ke pare gje imejllin qe te nisa?Balkanian`s word (talk) 19:01, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Na gje ndonje admin te nderhyj te camet mor burre, se qenka sh tra[p ky factuarius; po bejne ate qe bejne gjithnje; vetem zhurme, per te prishur artikullin.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks, I think we shouldn't make the tables too wide for some people don't have very large screens. I have looked through Orel's book although some of his reconstructions are controversial. I did see an interesting etymology of Albanian çandër from PIE *k'entrom Azalea pomp (talk) 07:01, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

It is interesting how the PIE palatals behave rather differently when next to r/l/n, etc. Albanian definitely went its own way in the way of sound changes. The Albanian pronunciation of Durrës does seem to point to relatively later sound change of the palatals (or velars!) to their current pronunciations. I wonder if Proto-Albanian actually kept a velar/uvular distinction (as is postulated for PIE...k'/g'/g'h may have been velar and k/g/gh may have been uvular) with the velars later becoming palatals and the uvulars later becoming velars. Azalea pomp (talk) 07:28, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Words

çandër is in the Oxford Albanian English Dictionary, it means prop or a forked support to support a fence or a wall. Orel has the etymology on page 4.

Found here: http://books.google.com/books?id=xvKH56aT5mEC&pg=PT1&dq=albanian+etymology

Demiraj mentions that in ftoh the tp changes to pt (then ft) due to metathesis. This is from the online database:

Albanian form ftoh Query method Match substring

Albanian form: ��0000">ftoh {2} [verb] (tg)

Meaning: to cool

Gramm. forms: Present: ��0000">ftoh; Aorist: ��0000">ftoha; Part.: ��0000">ftohur / ��0000">ftohe¨

Proto-Albanian: tpŒ-(h) {1}

Quasi-IE: t(e)p-eh1-

Page in Demiraj AE: 173

IE reconstruction: tep-

Meaning of the IE root: to be warm?

Page in Pokorny: 1069

Latin: tepe¡ `to be lukewarm, tepid'

Notes: {1} Rebuilt analogically after the original inchoatives. {2} From a metathesized preform ptoh.

Found here:

http://www.indoeuropean.nl/cgi-bin/startq.cgi?flags=endnnnl&root=leiden&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Calb Azalea pomp (talk) 19:47, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Regardless of the reasons for the sound change, metathesis, etc. PIE *p can become f in Albanian. Orel and Pokorny do not have metathesis, but have the "f" coming from PIE "w" ultimately. I can remove it since there is not a consensus. Azalea pomp (talk) 20:09, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The reason in insisting to remove

Three cases of falsification of sources. I did no personal attack I just told him that

His original source was completely faked since the page 21 was almost empty and said nothing about, which is true.
His second offered source was only a sentence said "It was alleged by the Italian-controlled government in Tirana that he had been murdered by Greek secret agents." which is just the sentence explained what the Italians said about, and nothing more, a very well known fact since every author is quoting what the Italian had said about the murder. So the statement "Vickers says..." is a misleading lie.
And that his reference of Mazower about the sizing of the male Chams population before the war was also a lie since Mazower saying exactly the opposite in his book, in the very page he noted.

To falsify three sources in a single paragraph by itself characterize the person. If you still have reservations about him I will provide ten more falsifications just to ensure you that all these are not "mistakes" but a consistent try to mislead all of us and especially the readers. Finally, personal attack is to write to someone "E telika eisai poly ..." that in Greeks means "So finally you are very..." which is at the start of that chapter signed by him. In which I was avoided to answer. Regards, --Factuarius (talk) 00:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Falsification of source nr.4.

What the source says: 1.4.1.1.4 Αναγκαστικός Νόμος 735/1937 σχετικά με την αναγκαστική απαλλοτρίωση των υπολειπομένων αλβανικών περιουσιών, τα οποία βρίσκονται υπό το Δημόσιο ή την Εθνική Τράπεζα, ως διαχειρίστριας της ανταλλαξίμου μουσουλμανικής περιουσίας, και (β) την αποζημίωση των ιδιοκτητών μετά από γνωμοδότηση της Επιτροπής Απαλλοτριώσεως. Σύμφωνα με μία πηγή, οι καθυστερήσεις στην καταβολή των αποζημιώσεων υπήρξαν προκλητικές. So it was about the properties that the Muslims of the area (Chams) had left behind when they resettled to Turkey during the population exchanges of '20. Compensations provided although according to one source were delayed.

What was transfering and referenced: "On the core issue of properties, the government led by Metaxas, not only did not compensate the local population for prior confiscations, but adopted a new law, which reduced the properties of Muslim Chams. The final law that nationalized the entire property of Chams and other Albanian nationals in Greece was passed in 1937. This law confiscated all properties of Albanians in Greece, except the primary homes and the small farms inside the villages, while the compensations provided for were delayed, something which was seen as a provocation, by Chams."

Some imagination indeed, I like the details "except the primary homes and the small farms inside the villages". "Farms inside the villages"???? An answer Balk? --Factuarius (talk) 02:30, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Falsification of source nr.5.

The sentence in the article: The Greek government saw this as the perfect opportunity to get rid of Muslim Albanians, as Orthodox Chams could be easily assimilated. The reference: Petzopoulos The Balkan Exchange of Minorities and Its Impact on Greece. p.128)
What the page says: Nothing about. Has two tables of the Ethnological Composition of the Greece and makes some general annotations about! An answer Balk? --Factuarius (talk) 03:39, 25 June 2009 (UTC) An answer Balk?

Falsification of source nr.6.

The sentence in the article: Prior to 1925, historian Miranda Vickers estimates that another 5,000 Chams had been forced to leave their homeland. reference Vickers, Miranda: The Cham Issue - Where to Now?
What the source says: "The Turkish goverment agreed to allow the settlement of some 5,000 Chams" and she explain below how the League of Nations intervened and stoped the procedure (p.5&6). Pallis says that only 1,700 resetled to Turkey, the League of Nations 2,993. So firstly Vickers mention only the Greek-Turkish agreement, doesn't makes ANY at all "estimations". And secondly her figure are not for "ANOTHER 5,000" but for the same 1,700 or 2,993 people!

An answer Balk? --Factuarius (talk) 20:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Ruches

Ruches is a Greek-American author; for sure biased. Lol, he never mentions the term "Southern Albania", only "Northern Epirus". But, there is no problem with Ruches, the problem is with Factuarius non-understanding of wiki policies.Balkanian`s word (talk) 08:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Better keep this private space for Ruches:) Aigest (talk) 14:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Ta hoqi prap versionin. Une nuk e di, kerkova sot mendim per kete ceshtje, po ende nuk me kane kthyer pergjigje. Ja ben mu qe e ka te njeanshme, po nuk ia del dot se gjithnje i ben 4-5 ndryshime ne dite, duke e bere faqen me idiote sa ska.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:38, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Already did. What excactly do u suggest? I suggest 3 diferrent sections: wwii: occupied Greece and collaboration(41-44)-resistance during and after wwii (44-45)-expulsion (44-45)Alexikoua (talk) 07:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Albanian dialects page

I will be adding a lot of data (especially in table form) to the new Albanian dialects page. I have a lot of data from Gjinari and other sources which will better demonstrate the various dialect and subdialect forms. Azalea pomp (talk) 20:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you find stuff of Thanasis Zikos? Except from some few Petiffer's and Vickers' words, I hardly can find some piece of infomration.Alexikoua (talk) 12:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Chameria & Cham Albanians redirection

Athenean proposed the merge of Chameria with Cham Albanians. Feel free to join the discussion here [17].--Sarandioti (talk) 21:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Didn't noticed your work on Thanas Ziko, really nice job. I'm working on the French book in NElfAlexikoua (talk) 18:51, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi

Thanks for that. I'll be sure to check it out Hxseek (talk) 01:12, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes. It's good. I wish to upgrade the article in a month or so. However, the fact that the source is reliable , and accurate, does not mean it'll be accepted (ie not reverted) by certain editors :) Hxseek (talk) 09:17, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Skenderbeu

Pershendetje Aigest. Po nuk e ke pare, po behet nji diskutim ne artikuja per Skenderbeun qe e ka pas nenen nga nji origjin te huaj. Deri tani, kemi bullgare edhe serbe qe po mundojn qe ta bejne Vojsaven slav. Po te duash, te lutem futu ne kete diskutim ngaqe une e di qe ti je me i edukuar per Skenderbeun se mua. Me gjithe te mirat--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Origin of Albanians

Thanks for your comment. I have already cited a lot of those articles now, and I am wondering what you think should be added? I was trying to avoid making the section explode, because the article is not only about genetics, and readers can go to more specialized articles.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I think only Battaglia et al suggest that the mutation might have happened there, and I think their reasoning can't be called consensus yet because it is quite messy compared to their own data and the data they cite. Perhaps what you mean is that there is consensus that the modern E-V13 population seems to descend from a Balkan common ancestor? (Discussions about where the mutation happened are always more controversial, and in some ways not so interesting.) Just so you understand the problem with Battaglia's theory is that it does not take account of the Druze sample which Cruciani et al found, which appear to be quite distant from "normal" E-V13. This suggests that E-V13 originated in Asia, but mostly died out. The line in Europe is probably a dominant sub-clade of E-V13 overall. (We just don't know they defining SNPs yet.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:41, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I made some changes to the E-V13 section which I think correctly refine concerning the issue you are talking about. Please let me know what you think.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:42, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I do not think we can really localize the origins of V13 very easily, for example by saying the southern Balkans. Croatia shows high V13 diversity and for Bulgaria we have very little data. Parts of Greece seem to have low levels. Apart from that I am not sure what changes you are suggesting but maybe the word lineages was confusing so I changed that part.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:20, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

No it could easily have entered Europe through the Northern Balkans and only moved south later. I see no point distinguishing North and South. The sources are not clear enough. I am also not sure about this word "typical" to me being typical of a region could imply that V13 is the most common haplogroup in that region. I think it is borderline most common in small areas, but not any easy to define large area, so I think this way of writing would be unclear.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can see only the Semino quote you give proposes E-V13 having come from the Southern Balkans specifically. Cruciani only says is most common there today, which does not prove it originated in exactly the same place, and indeed he implies there has been a lot of change. I do not see Battaglia specifying anything about V13 being southern? You might also want to look at Pericic.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 12:47, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you making equations which are not justified. Battaglia et al. and Pericic et al. and King et al. do not clearly point to the South Balkans, and in fact I do not even think that there is a clear definition of what the South Balkans means.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 13:56, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it is a bad theory, but just one among many possible ones, and I am not sure we can drop into this non genetics article, because in order to explain this properly (explaining the doubts and other possibilities) you need to cite lots of raw data primary references. Even then it would be bordering on SYNTH. Why is it so important?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:28, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

In regard to your comments on Andrew's page have you read

Journal of world prehistory: 2003, vol. 17, no3, pp. 235-312 [78 page(s) (article)] (12 p.1/2)

Impressed ware or Impressed cardial ware according to this paper is only influential in the Southern Ionian region (very few examples if any good examples) the best examples of Italian cardial pottery actually come from the West coast of Italy (Tuscan region), not from the eastern coast and regions proximal to albania. In addition this paper infers that the tradition came from elsewhere in the Eastern mediterranean but does not really describe where it came from. The pottery traditions of the NW balkan region are very different, influential within the Italian peninsula but not to be considered cardial ware. Cardial pottery extent is best described from west coast of south central peninsular italy to the western coast of Iberia. In fact, the earliest Neolithic site in Italy is from the Ligurian region, not the eastern coast. The JWP paper is available online, I believe.PB666 ^yap 16:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Ruches

Ruches is a Greek-American author; for sure biased. Lol, he never mentions the term "Southern Albania", only "Northern Epirus". But, there is no problem with Ruches, the problem is with Factuarius non-understanding of wiki policies.Balkanian`s word (talk) 08:22, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Better keep this private space for Ruches:) Aigest (talk) 14:00, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Ta hoqi prap versionin. Une nuk e di, kerkova sot mendim per kete ceshtje, po ende nuk me kane kthyer pergjigje. Ja ben mu qe e ka te njeanshme, po nuk ia del dot se gjithnje i ben 4-5 ndryshime ne dite, duke e bere faqen me idiote sa ska.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:38, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Already did. What excactly do u suggest? I suggest 3 diferrent sections: wwii: occupied Greece and collaboration(41-44)-resistance during and after wwii (44-45)-expulsion (44-45)Alexikoua (talk) 07:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Albanian dialects page

I will be adding a lot of data (especially in table form) to the new Albanian dialects page. I have a lot of data from Gjinari and other sources which will better demonstrate the various dialect and subdialect forms. Azalea pomp (talk) 20:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you find stuff of Thanasis Zikos? Except from some few Petiffer's and Vickers' words, I hardly can find some piece of infomration.Alexikoua (talk) 12:49, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Chameria & Cham Albanians redirection

Athenean proposed the merge of Chameria with Cham Albanians. Feel free to join the discussion here [18].--Sarandioti (talk) 21:59, 17 July 2009 (UTC)