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Administrators' newsletter – April 2020

News and updates for administrators from the past month (March 2020).

Guideline and policy news

  • There is an ongoing request for comment to streamline the source deprecation and blacklisting process.

Technical news

Arbitration

  • Following the banning of an editor by the WMF last year, the Arbitration Committee resolved to hold a Arbcom RfC regarding on-wiki harassment. A draft RfC has been posted at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Anti-harassment RfC (Draft) and not open to comments from the community yet. Interested editors can comment on the RfC itself on its talk page.

Miscellaneous

  • The WMF has begun a pilot report of the pages most visited through various social media platforms to help with anti-vandalism and anti-disinformation efforts. The report is updated daily and will be available through the end of May.
Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:00, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Polysteganus undulosus redirect

Why does this exist? The only things it appears to accomplish is to make links to Polysteganus undulosus show blue instead of red (thereby tricking users such as myself into thinking that the article actually exists) and to create a circular redirect on the page you redirect to, Polysteganus. 71.168.173.2 (talk) 22:51, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

It redirects users reading the name linked from other articles to the best option we have so far, which is the stub article on the genus. It also provides a legitimate title in article space that anyone can edit, which makes it possible for a non-registered user to convert it to an article on the topic, so you could fix it yourself. For more information on the uses and policies regarding redirects, see Wikipedia:Redirect. As a logged in registered user you could set an option to see redirects in green, if that would help you. For that you would need an account, which is easy and free to set up. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 05:19, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

yup

I can see your concerns - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Evad37/rater.js - personally I dont think access should be allowed to new users - or those who have little understanding of what the assessment system is about in the first place. But how to create a standard, it feels very un-every dog their own boss (ie not likely to be fixed in wikipedia) JarrahTree 11:08, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

JarrahTree, Mostly an educational problem I hope. If people could be persuaded to read a bit of guidance on importance assessments they would probably just stop making inappropriate settings for importance, except for the one or two who will eventually have to be blocked for disruptive editing because they are hard of listening and always know better.· · · Peter Southwood (talk): 11:39, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Desktop improvements prototype

Hello, Pbsouthwood!

Thanks for taking the time to participate in the user feedback round for our desktop improvements prototype. This feedback is super valuable to us and is currently being used to determine our next steps. We have published a report gathering the main takeaways from the feedback and highlighting the changes we’ll make based on this feedback. Please take a look and give us your thoughts on the talk page of the report. To learn more about the project overall and the other features we’re planning on building in the future, check out the main project page.

SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 22:43, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Hello

Couldn't help but notice on my watchlist that all the species of Conospermum you added a commons category for have now been undone by PiBot since the commons categories nearly all appear to be empty. For example see Conospermum unilaterale. Regards. Hughesdarren (talk) 09:42, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Hughesdarren, It is part of adding several improvements to Proteaceae. It is more work for me to check whether the commons cat exists then to just add it, as it shows up as a blue link either way. I don't see that it does any harm if there is no commons content, and in those cases where it does exist, it is a bonus. Likewise if a bot removes it it does not worry me greatly. If there is a real problem, please let me know what it is, and if possible how to avoid it. I assume the bot will not remove the link if there is content in the commonscat, and there are images in quite a few Conospermum pages. Sorry about the watchlist clog, but as you know what is causing it you can just ignore it. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:55, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
No worries, thought I would mention it in case you hadn't noticed. Regards. Hughesdarren (talk) 09:57, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Hughesdarren, A kind thought. I have started checking before saving where there is no image. It is a bit of a delay, but avoids empty sections. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 10:18, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Question

Hi, Peter - does the OTRS ticket resolve this 89% likelihood of copyvio? Atsme Talk 📧 14:57, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, Could be a problem. I think it would need another ticket to cover it. I guess I will have to move it back to draft until sorted out. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 16:26, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Moved it back to draft and asked Devanshmrc to submit another OTRS. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 17:37, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – May 2020

News and updates for administrators from the past month (April 2020).

Administrator changes

removed Gnangarra • Kaisershatner • Malcolmxl5

CheckUser changes

readded Callanecc

Oversight changes

readded HJ Mitchell

Guideline and policy news

Technical news

Miscellaneous

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 01:19, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious
Two years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:39, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Gerda, I hope you are well in these troubled times. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 18:04, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Thank you, Peter. Healthy, but no choir singing, and limited contacts, - how about you? - I sing for myself, though, every day. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:46, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
Also healthy, thanks Gerda but not only stuck at home when the diving is good, but having problems with Internet. landline ISP is disconnected, mobile very poor signal. I am hoping it will be fixed in a week or so. Making use of the time to draw some illustrations. Also no choir singing, for which the choirs are no doubt grateful. I wish I could sing, but I have no musical talent whatsoever. I will leave that to you. Cheers,· · · Peter Southwood (talk): 15:38, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Glossary of underwater diving terminology, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Shallow-water blackout (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 12:40, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Underwater Domain Awareness

Dear Peter,

Though your outgoing may suffer but received your mail regarding your incoming mail, as they working fine and you are able to read it. Please let our team know whether you were able to look after our email. If not, we will put that content on your talk page. Also, the OTRS you asked for has been issued.

--Devanshmrc (talk) 03:33, 20 May 2020 (UTC)Devanshmrc

@Devanshmrc:, When the OTRS has been processed a notice should be placed on the talk page of the draft. That is the only way I will be notified. After that has been done I can proceed with moving the article.
It is not clear what team you are referring to. User accounts on Wikipedia are restricted to one person only according to terms of use. Regards, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 07:44, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Dear Peter, A notice for that OTRS has already been placed on the talk page of the draft. Please do have a look. In anyway, I am also attaching the OTRS Ticket Number is 2020051110007854, might that help.

Regards Devanshmrc (talk) 12:53, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – June 2020

News and updates for administrators from the past month (May 2020).

Administrator changes

added CaptainEek • Creffett • Cwmhiraeth
removed Anna Frodesiak • Buckshot06 • Ronhjones • SQL

CheckUser changes

removed SQL

Guideline and policy news

Arbitration

  • A motion was passed to enact a 500/30 restriction on articles related to the history of Jews and antisemitism in Poland during World War II (1933–45), including the Holocaust in Poland. Article talk pages where disruption occurs may also be managed with the stated restriction.
Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Just checking in

It has been a slow process for me re: UDA because of other things I've been working on. Gotta love WP's no deadlines (with the exception of prepping for DYK). Atsme Talk 📧 18:39, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

No deadlines, no rush, no worries. Yeah, right. I take it you are in good health? Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 19:26, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Happy Adminship Anniversary!

Wishing Pbsouthwood a very happy adminship anniversary on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee! History DMZ (talk)+(ping) 17:41, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Feedback request: Wikipedia policies and guidelines request for comment

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New Page Reviewer newsletter June 2020

Hello Pbsouthwood,

Your help can make a difference

NPP Sorting can be a great way to find pages needing new page patrolling that match your strengths and interests. Using ORES, it divides articles into topics such as Literature or Chemistry and on Geography. Take a look and see if you can find time to patrol a couple pages a day. With over 10,000 pages in the queue, the highest it's been since ACPERM, your help could really make a difference.

Google Adds New Languages to Google Translate

In late February, Google added 5 new languages to Google Translate: Kinyarwanda, Odia (Oriya), Tatar, Turkmen and Uyghur. This expands our ability to find and evaluate sources in those languages.

Discussions and Resources
  • A discussion on handling new article creation by paid editors is ongoing at the Village Pump.
  • Also at the Village Pump is a discussion about limiting participation at Articles for Deletion discussion.
  • A proposed new speedy deletion criteria for certain kinds of redirects ended with no consensus.
  • Also ending with no change was a proposal to change how we handle certain kinds of vector images.

Six Month Queue Data: Today – 10271 Low – 4991 High – 10271

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Administrators' newsletter – July 2020

News and updates for administrators from the past month (June 2020).

Guideline and policy news

Technical news

Arbitration

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:25, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, have things gotten better?

I wrote an essay that has a reference to Boyle's law. If you're ever back online, take a look at it and let me know what you think. Atsme Talk 📧 20:36, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi Atsme, I am on line, but have been working on Wikivoyage updating dive site maps and articles - original research, so unsuitable for WP. I will take a look at WP:Pack's law.

Retusa truncatula image

See my talkpage. Greetings --Llez (talk) 10:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Wikiprokjects, Complexity, Etc.

"What were you expecting WMF to do about it?"
Glad you asked. ;-) One thing that the WMF should do, I strongly feel, is to take conscience that complexity is a big and growing problem for Wikipedia, arguably on the same level as vandalism, improper contents, etc.. It is comprised of literally thousands of pages of style manuals, thousands of unwritten rules and customs, thousands of templates and hundreds of markup tags, each with its own syntax and semantics (invariably inconsistent, illogical, and buggy), hundreds of special tools and pages (like the page to request blocked moves, the page patrol list, and the Court of Holy Inquisition, aka AfD)...
Complexity is a huge drain of Wikipedia's scarcest resource, namely editor time; not just of editors who must spend time understanding those rules and tools, but also of those editors who succumb to the temptation of adding to that complexity by writing new manuals, templates, procedures, etc.
As I mentioned on the other editor's Talk page, complexity is surely the main factor that keeps newbies from becoming regular editors, and maybe also a major one that drives old editors away. It makes editing painful even...
Here are some specific things that the WMF could do to check and hopefully reduce the complexity of the project:

  • Enact a moratorium on the creation of new templates. Then start a project that will review all current templates, identifying the really good ones and eliminating the others. Elimination may be just deleting every call, or replacing each call by the plain source that would result from it, or replacing it by some simpler piece of source. For example,
An '''oligomer''' ({{IPAc-en|audio=En-us-Oligomer.oga|ə|ˈ|l|ɪ|g|ə|m|ər}}<ref name=MerriamWebsterDef>{{cite web|title=Oligomer|url=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oligomer|publisher=[[Merriam-Webster]]|accessdate=25 October 2014}}</ref>) (''[[wikt:oligo-|oligo-]]'', "a few" + ''[[wikt:-mer|-mer]]'', "parts") is a [[molecular complex]] of [[chemistry|chemicals]] that ...
could be replaced automatically by
An '''oligomer''' (/əˈlɪgəmər/<ref name=MerriamWebsterDef>[http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oligomer Oligomer]. Merriam-Webster. Accessed on 2014-08-25.</ref>) (''oligo-'', "a few" + ''-mer'', "parts") is a [[molecular complex]] of [[chemistry|chemicals]] that ...
without any significant loss of value to the reader. (In fact, it should be further simplified to
An '''oligomer''' is a [[molecule]] that ... The name comes from [[Greek language|Greek]] elements ''oligo-'', "a few" and ''-mer'', "parts".
but this would require manual editing.)
To help distinguish good and bad templates, I propose the following rule: a template is bad if the expansion of the call generates more visible characters than are in the call itself. Using such a template would be like a painter applying a rubber stamp to a painting, a potter sticking molded pieces on a pot, a writer or musician using copy-paste to reuse some phrase over and over -- so as to produce more "volume" with less mental and physical effort. As in those other arts, "stamping" lowers the quality of the product, by diluting the "brain juice" of the creator and by forcing the reader to read the same text hundreds of times.
This criterion immediately implies that all navboxes and navbars are extremely bad, because a short call like {{Poultry Psychology navbox}} generates hundreds of visible characters.
I also propose that a template or other special source construct is bad if it only affects the appearance of the article, without significanly improving its readability or conveying useful information.. Thus, for example, the {{chem}} template is good, because it helps typesetting subscripts and superscripts that are very sinificant in chemical formulas; whereas all the {{cite ...}} templates are very bad, because, while they make the source a lot less readable and more difficult to edit, their value to the reader is null. Compare
<ref>{{cite journal|last1=Ghashghaee|first1=Mohammad|title=Heterogeneous catalysts for gas-phase conversion of ethylene to higher olefins|journal=Rev. Chem. Eng.|volume=34|issue=5|pages=595–655|doi=10.1515/revce-2017-0003|url=https://www.degruyter.com/view/j/revce.ahead-of-print/revce-2017-0003/revce-2017-0003.xml|year=2018}}</ref>
with this possible automatic replacement
<ref>Mohammed Ghashghaee (2018): "Heterogeneous catalysts for gas-phase conversion of ethylene to higher olefins". ''Rev. Chem. Eng.'', volume 34, issue 5, pages 595-655 {{doi|10.1515/revce-2017-0003}}</ref>
which produces more readable entry with the same information.
I could go on, but this is enough hogging of your talkpage already. All the best, --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 06:01, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
Jorge Stolfi,
Are you aware that WMF has no authority over editorial matters in any project provided that the users comply with the terms of use? That includes the complexity of policies, guidance, manual of style etc. They have no expertise in those matters, and when they interfere beyond their remit it is usually a disaster. If they had the authority they would automatically become legally liable for the contents, and would probably spend the rest of their existence fighting lawsuits.
As I understand it, the whole point of a template such as a navbox is to allow the editor to reproduce a complex chunk of content which is frequently useful and subject to updating in such a way that it reduces errors, minimises repetitive work, and allows centralised updates. What I am getting from your explanation is that you think editors should have to either reinvent the wheel every time they need one, or copy and paste the code from somewhere, and if a change is needed like adding another article to a navbox, they should do this manually, for all the tens, hundreds, thousands or potentially even millions of cases where a template could have been used, and somehow you think this would be a good thing?
I concede that using templates has a learning curve, but as far as I know, no-one is obliged to use them. If you want to cite in plain text you may do so. If someone else wants to convert your citation to a template version to provide consistent display, they may do so too, but maybe I am misunderstanding your point.
When I started editing ten years ago, the system was already complex, but I managed by first doing the things that were less complex and learning the more complex things as and when I needed them. I agree that it would be preferable to reduce complexity where possible, but also preferable not to unduly hinder the people who are already up to speed. WMF actually did try to facilitate this with Visual Editor, but they implemented it badly and set things back unnecessarily by wrecking peoples workflow, so there was a backlash. Volunteers do not take kindly to arbitrary interference. If they were less committed, many more would have just downed tools and left. Instead they invested thousands of hours to fight back to preserve a system that while sub-optimal in many ways, was far better than the new system at that point. One of the problems with WMF is that their solutions are often worse than the problems they are trying to fix, possibly because they do not have to work productively with their solutions.
There are some abominations in the Wikipedia system, but in most cases there are no better solutions available, and in some cases you can't get there without first taking a big step backward, with no guarantee that you will get back to a better place. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:14, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – August 2020

News and updates for administrators from the past month (July 2020).

Administrator changes

added Red Phoenix
readded Euryalus • SQL
removed Jujutacular • Monty845 • Rettetast • Madchester

Oversight changes

readded GB fan
removed Keegan • Opabinia regalis • Premeditated Chaos

Guideline and policy news

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:21, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Reference Organizer

Have a look at this, Peter: User:Kaniivel/Reference Organizer. I'm just about to try it out, but it looks great for LDRs. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 17:22, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@RexxS:, specs look good. Thanks for the heads up. I will look into it in more detail tomorrow. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 18:52, 6 August 2020 (UTC)Q16975039
@RexxS:, Loaded and gave it a try. It does a few things that look like bugs, but usable anyway.
  1. It does not seem to sort by ref name as claimed, unless I am doing something wrong. It pulls refs into the list and lets me name them without difficulty, but then they stick at the end of the list. Clicking on the ref name does not appear to have any sorting effect.
  2. It removes empty lines between the refs in the list, which I find makes for reduced readability.
  3. The UI screen top can get stuck above the top of the page under the menus, so the mouse can't drag it back down.
Have you tried it, and have you had any similar or other problems? Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 12:00, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
I tried it out as a possible means of converting articles to LDR, and only got as far as previewing, so you've probably got more experience using it than I have now. I'll go and look at some mixed-style articles and see if I come across the same issues. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 18:04, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
As a means of converting to LDR it is pretty convenient, even with the bugs, and would be really nice if these little hassles can be ironed out. I was wondering if my setup might be part of the problem. Tomorrow I might play with variations of hardware and browsers. So far have only used Firefox on Windows 10. Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 18:59, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
It did not work well in a test using Chrome on an Android tablet (desktop view). UI screen could not be moved or size reduced, and it erased most of the refs already in the list. Chrome on Windows 10 desktop seems to work about the same as Firefox. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 07:20, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Looks like it removed all of the existing LDRs. That's a pity as it means it's only usable for an initial conversion, whereas we most need something to use in articles where we already have mainly LDRs, but other editors have added a few inline-defined refs. Oh well, worth a look anyway. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 18:17, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
It only seems to do that on the tablet. Maybe it is incompatible with Android. There are some issues in Windows with Chrome and Firefox but not so bad. I have been able to convert half and half to all LDR, but needed to do the alphabetical sorting by hand, and as it strips whitespace from the list, I had to do a bunch of replacing, which is a bit tedious when there are 150 refs in the list. Renaming ref names seems to be quite easy. I have not tried the Microsoft browser, and don't have any Apple or Linux machines to try. With Chrome and Firefox it is useful, but not optimal. Cheers · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 18:47, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Can one make find and replace add an [enter]? · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 18:50, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
I always do anything complex in an external editor (like Notepad++ on Windows) which can use extended syntax or regular expressions, so I have no experience of using the one in Wikipedia. In the past I've used a spreadsheet to sort the list of refs with a click and then pasted it into an external editor to quickly insert extra lines before pasting it back into the edit-box. --RexxS (talk) 19:40, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Do you know of any decent tutorial for regular expressions? I don't know where to start and they look useful. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:40, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Found some, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:57, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Feedback request: Wikipedia policies and guidelines request for comment

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A Dobos torte for you!

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To give a Dobos torte and spread the WikiLove, just place {{subst:Dobos Torte}} on someone else's talkpage, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.

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Burt's solar compass

Talk:Burt's solar compass/GA2 --Doug Coldwell (talk) 19:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Doug Coldwell, I will take a look. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 19:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Take a look at the last paragraph of the "Reception" section. If you feel it could use any improvement, I welcome your input. This paragraph amplifies the last paragraph in the Lead. Thanks. --Doug Coldwell (talk) 14:22, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
Doug Coldwell How about This instrument was invented to get away from the highly variable and unreliable readings given by a magnetic compass in a locality with a magnetic field anomaly caused by large iron ore deposits. The instrument was found to be so accurate that it was specified by the United States government for surveying public lands, state boundaries, and railroad routes. It won awards for its technology as being simple, rugged, inexpensive, reliable and accurate from various organizations (maybe specify which organisations if you can) and was used by surveyors from the nineteenth into the twentieth century, (and was superseded by satellite navigation technology?) (guessing the bit about what came next, you will have to look that up, but DGPS would be my prime suspect). Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 19:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Copying within Wikipedia

Thanks for identifying the source of the material in your edit.

This type of edit does get picked up by Copy Patrol and a good edit summary helps to make sure we don't accidentally revert it. However, for future use, would you note the best practices wording as outlined at Wikipedia:Copying_within_Wikipedia? In particular, adding the phrase "see that page's history for attribution" helps ensure that proper attribution is preserved.

I've noticed that this guideline is not very well known, even among editors with tens of thousands of edits, so it isn't surprising that I point this out to some veteran editors, but there are some t's that you need to be crossed.S Philbrick(Talk) 16:14, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: Thank you for your diplomatically phrased message. I will revisit Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia to refresh my memory. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 17:04, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
Please feel welcome to draw my attention if I start to leave it out again. Sometimes old habits die hard, and memory may be unreliable when there is a big interval between re-uses. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 06:26, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – September 2020

News and updates for administrators from the past month (August 2020).

Administrator changes

added Eddie891
removed Angela • Jcw69 • Just Chilling • Philg88 • Viajero

CheckUser changes

readded SQL

Guideline and policy news

Arbitration

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:56, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Feedback request: Wikipedia policies and guidelines request for comment

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"List of diver training organizations" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect List of diver training organizations. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 September 16#List of diver training organizations until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 13:52, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – September 2020

News and updates for administrators from the past month (September 2020).

Administrator changes

added Ajpolino • LuK3
readded Jackmcbarn
removed Ad Orientem • Harej • Lid • Lomn • Mentoz86 • Oliver Pereira • XJaM
renamed There'sNoTime → TheresNoTime

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:43, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

October harvest

thank you --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

You are aways welcome, Gerda. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 05:13, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Feedback request: Engineering and technology Good Article nomination

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Feedback request: Geography and places Good Article nomination

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An automated process has detected that when you recently edited List of Caryophyllales of South Africa, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Arenaria.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:27, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – November 2020

News and updates for administrators from the past month (October 2020).

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:52, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Feedback request: Engineering and technology Good Article nomination

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A barnstar for you!

The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
Thank you for all your fantastic work on lists of South African biota! Captain Calm (talk) 15:46, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Thank you Captain Calm, I think it was a moment of madness to start, but I am learning a lot and expect to finish plants within a week or three. Then the rest of the animals... Cheers, · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 16:12, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

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