User talk:ThatPeskyCommoner/Archive 9

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Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10

Philosophical and History Section!

PS, thanks for the reply on the Arb board, thought I'd reply here to save clutter as its getting a little tangenital. Didnt know much of that, as you say its interesting and I suspect youre right in all you say. The OED makes clear the root words are from the Germanic and Swedish (viking) languages from which English is partly derived, so while it makes sense to say the C word might have originally had the harsh closed off quality in English (possibly reflecting sexist attitudes at the time), its also reasonable to say its roots had a more fitting word sound. FeydHuxtable (talk) 14:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Facilitator it is! (Yes, it's a better word). The English language has so many words with different roots - it's because the English people are (basically) a bunch of mongrels! Cattle are cattle, but beef is beef because it was an aristo-food (boeuf). Same with sheep and mutton (mouton) and pig and pork (porc). We have acquired (hijacked?) words from our conquerors and invaders along the way, and the common folks adopted the words used by their (alleged) betters at regular intervals. Keeping up with the Joneses, mediaeval-style, in many cases. The same kind of stuff happened with clothing (particularly masculine clothing). What's ultra-formal, now – top hat and tails – was originally smart sporting (riding) wear. The coat was cut away in front so it didn't get in the way of the rider, giving the impression of it having tails. The same coat is still worn for formal dressage competitions. Then we got the co-ordinated short riding jacket and trousers (two-piece suit), and then the hacking jacket (now the sports coat), and so on. In the past couple of centuries, it was fashionable for ladies to be pale-skinned, and "vulgar" (which actually means common, again from the Latin) to have a tan. Pale skin meant you didn;t have to work out of doors. Now, it's fashionable to have the tan, because it means you have enough money and / or leisure time to go and get a tan, rather than spending all your life indoors (in the office or factory). So much, so very much, comes from the common folks mimicking their "betters" (which only really meant "folks richer than they were"). That's what happened with all those anatomical words, too. It was "scholarly" and "professional" to use the Latin, instead of the ordinary everyday words that ordinary everyday folks used every day of their lives. Scholars, professionals ... rich people ... . You want to be seen to be higher up the social scale? Ape the rich people; use their language and their clothing. The common people's words (i.e. the vulgaris word) was considered to be rude / crude, rather than "refained" (and yes, the "a" is in there for a reason!). "Vulgar" came to mean "rude" (which was an older word for common in itself), or "coarse" – as in "unpolished. Fascinating stuff. People are odd things. If you're talking ordinarily to ordinary people, you talk about your kneecap. But if you want to sound a bit more "posh" you call it your patella. I find that, no matter what words people use, it pays to remember that we all used to wear nappies, and shit in them. ;P
The intent you have, when you utter whichever word it is, is the important thing. So much better – and so simple! – to say "You're irritating me", instead of "You're stupid!" or "You're a [insert string of vulgar words here]"; or "I really don't want to talk / listen to you any more" instead of "Fuck off!". Pesky (talkstalk!) 15:41, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Fascinating indeed good pesky. Sometimes even Latin isnt obscure enough. Perhaps the most lurid passages ever written were by Justinian extolling the pleasures and powers of Theodora's ... ahem. I dont think any scholar have translated it out of Greek, though it was often talked about back in my shcool daze. If Foucault is any guide theres more to it than a desire to seem posh, until about 17th century folk were relatively open about sex related stuff, then started to be more repressive. Giving up on the genital misspelling, youve got me off on another tangent with your thrilling mention of hunting gear. The slang berk is from the cocky for "Berkshire Hunt" and was interested you said it means the same. Ive never heard and cant imagine it being used for anything other than the secondary meaning. "You've got the sweetest hottest berk" - who'd say a thing like that? PS In my family we like to think we're not mongrels but pure bred Celts, and I cant prove but know in my blood that we never had the C word in our original Brythonic! FeydHuxtable (talk) 16:26, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm definitely a mongrel! Scots, Welsh, Yorkshire (thus Viking ...), Lancashire, smidgin of French from the Huguenot era ... and those are just the ones the family can trace! Much of the prudery came across to England much more strongly with the Germanic influence on the throne (Victoria and Albert); it got to quite ridiculous levels – though obviously it didn't seem that ridiculous to those who were covering up the table legs! If people would only be a bit less squeamish about bodies and bodily functions, half our "naughty words" would cease to be naughty at all. Then we'd just be left with the religion-based swear words; except , of course, that something else newly-considered "naughty" would provide a whole new swearing vocabulary. Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:36, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Rediculously rediculous indeed pesky, those Germanic infuences have a lot to answer for!

As Spengler tells it, in the 10th century, when Western Civilisation was born on the fields of Germany and France, God the Father was felt as Force itself. Eternal , grand, sacred causality: unconceiveable in any form comprehensible to the human eye. Jesus too was felt by us common people to be almost hopelessly out of reach , and so much of the desire of our young soul to bow itself in humility before the divine found its expression in the figure of the Virgin. At the centre of much early Gothic art, she was a Light figure, garbed in white blue & gold, surrounded by celestial hosts. Peterus Damiani and Bernard of Clarivaus helped establish her pan–European cult. Around her gathered countless legends , beliefs and new customs. The Angelic greeting, The Ave Maria, among the Dominicans the crown of roses ; among the Franciscans the festival of the Visitation. Here among the Benedictines arose the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception – which elevated her above mortality into the world of light.

But this world of purity, light and utter beauty of soul would have been impossible without its dark counter-part. A foe that breeds woe - seduces, tricks, corrupts – the realm of the devil. Pervading the whole of creation, it was everywhere, laying in ambush for the unwary. A countless army of goblins , wraiths , werewolves and witches. In dark moments an appalling fear weighs on man – every moment he may stumble into the abyss.

Life was a ceaseless and desperate conflict with the devil. The Church Triumphant of angles and saints in their glory looked down from on high. Mary was the tender protectoress and intercessor with God to whose bossom the troubled soul could flee for comfort. .

Providing relief from this terrible dread was the prime sacrament of Contrition. The certainty in the power of absolution invested in the priests brought a blissful happiness which is now scarcely imaginabl .

Its impossible to exaggerate the grandeur of this forceful, insistent picture - or the depth of sincerity with which it was believed.

Both the Mary-myths and the Devil-myth were not merely imagined but felt as vital actualities that shook men and woman to their inner most beings. They were believed in with a faith which felt the very notion of proof as a kind of blasphemy.

But when Luther destroyed the common peoples faith with his rediculous reformation, many lost all believe in the power of absolution. Along with the inward bliss of aquital and the certainty of salvation in the next life. With it faded almost all the Mary world of light. But the fear of devil and his witches remained, and much of the gynophobia arose from this. Another reason for the double standards regarding male and female parts...

PS - still havent worked out what the extra a in refined was for? Was it to create a rime with caned? And please let me know if you think I deserve a horse whipping for filling your talk page with this rediculous religous ramble :-) FeydHuxtable (talk) 17:51, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

That stuff is sooooo true! men have been a bit scared of women for far longer than they care to admit! (and, quite possibly, with good reason ... hur, hur, hur ...)
I think some of it may purely and simply stem from the fact that, it seems, for a lot of men, women are hard to understand. Hard to know how their minds work; mystery may equal threat; fear of the unknown. We women are complicated things - and we start to become complicated things at about age 10! Men, on the other hand, I always see as maturing more slowly, yes, but much more smoothly. I don't think quite so much changes with men in the change from boyhood as it does with women in the change from girlhood. And then there are all those female mysteries; in the bluntest of terms, men are on hand-holding terms with their own bits from the time when they're old enough to stand up to pee – not much mystery there! And those old myths – the more fearsome of the Faery stories – with females whose bits ... well, bit! Could bite things off, even! Scary stuff, of which nightmares are made.
"Refained" ... well, it's how "non-posh people" take the mickey out of "posh people"'s accents, I suppose. And you're more than welcome to fill my page with random waffle on all sorts of things. Keeps the natives amused ;P Almost anyone's welcome to join in with the quasi-madness on this page, so long as nobody scares the more shy of the woodland creatures. Talking of which, we had a roe deer on our field today, who stood there almost calmly and watched us walk down to the stream. Pesky (talkstalk!) 19:29, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
That too. I think we might have covered all the bases. Wilde animals seem to know sometimes. FeydHuxtable (talk) 09:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Back to the Berkshire Hunt - yes, it's Cockney rhyming slang! "You're a berk!" "You're a prat!" and "You're a twat!" all mean, in literal terms, the exact same thing as "You're a cunt!" Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:10, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Cant argue with that. You have a knack for this virtual CP stuff 718smiley.png. Sorry to read about your neck condition. Ive had a prolasped disk for years now, so Ive some idea what its like, once went 6 days with the pain too intense to sleep. I'll say some prayers that your operation is a success. FeydHuxtable (talk) 15:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Hey, Neighbor

When the term 'Civility Police' is used, I think it is an attempt to separate those labelled CP from the rest of the crowd, the community. Like we are stick wielding, gun toting, High-minders with antennae ears and pea sized brains just waiting to stomp on the first editor that says "darn!" When the term Neighbor is used we are one of the members of the community, entitled to speak up. In fact, expected to speak up. My ears are getting a bit waxy and need a good cleaning. TRA!---Buster Seven Talk 14:51, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

If you were here, I'd offer to syringe them for you! Fing is, though, fing is ... so many people's neighbours leave a bit to be desired, as well! And I have a CP label, but wield no stick or gun. Maybe I'm the dog. Pesky (talkstalk!) 15:45, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

I have a label too. When I got it it was self-stick. I tried velcro but that didnt work. Now I have a patch, sewn onto my breast pocket. Im proud of it. I dont go out on partol. But if something happens right in front of me, Ive made a personal committment to respond. What little voice I have is as a member of the large peer group called Wikipedia Editors (WE). WE dont always have a meeting of the minds, which is understandable since there are ___,000 members. But, WE are everywhere in WikiLand. There is not a corner or a back-room that doesnt contain at least one of us. And, most of us are silent when we see something uncomfortable. Sidebar: When I was 10, my uncle gave me a horse...not really but I was 10. What did I know about horse ownership. He was an enormous Belgian Clydsdale workhorse named Luc. I "owned" him for a summer vacation. He taught me everything there was to know about being the strongest living thing you can imagine while at the same time being the most gentle creature that ever has lived. Endsidebar. To the best of my recollection I have never sworn at or cursed any of my fellow matter what the level of provocation might be. I have never brought up a fellow member on "charges" at any of the resources available. I also have no stick or gun and I dont aspire to get ever them. I like to live in a peaceful environment and, at best, remind adjacent editors when that peace is threatened. Another Sidebar: Syringing sounds like it might be painful. But many times the pain is only momentary. And relief is so pleasant. TRA!---Buster Seven Talk 17:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

You should meet some of the violently-wild ponies we have to round up on the Forest! A properly-socialised horse is an absolute delight, but I've been kicked, bitten, and "beat over" (literally knocked to the floor at a charge) by Forest ponies! And you always forgive them, because it's their instinct to become very defensive – and it is defensive, not aggressive – when frightened.
The CP label - I don't "go hunting", but if I trip over something I don't think I should ignore it. Sometimes working out what to do about it can be problematic. I do my best to be understanding and patient with any dispute (here's me at dispute resolution recently section "Stallion"). Sometimes I get it wrong. I'm human; humans are never infallible.
I like best, on Wikipedia, finding the diamonds lurking in the pile of sand that's a well-intentioned newbie :o) And I like researching and writing something that grabs my attention. And ear-syringing, done properly, isn't painful (it's one of the many paramedical services I offer to friends and family! Means they don't have to wait for an appointment with the local nurse.) I have all sorts of strange and varied labels - it rather depends which of my various hats I'm wearing. And, talking of hats, one of my favourites belonged to my father, and bears the legend "Living Fossil" on the front ;P Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:55, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Citizens of WikipediaWorld

To your knowledge has there ever been a broad based discussion about editors being citizens. Maybe not as an end in itself (too many passports, documentation, customs agents,etc.) but as the genesis of a discussion about solutions. The Civility enforcemnet sites clearly show that we are two (or more) countries separated by a common language. Now its obvious that out mutual language allows us to come together, but we bring along with us all our cultural baggage. And, as we see, its the cultural baggage that, sometimes, causes dysfunction. The cultures that people live in around the world took generations to form...building, nurturing, teaching, even scolding. Maybe that is at the heart our polarized civility situation?. As a community we are very young. We don't hold/see/understand corrections as positives: we hold them as criticisms. We don't see the helping hand: we only see the finger pointing. Our culture at WP is still being formed (some would say we don't have a culture) One thing I learned early in life is "How and where do you plug into The Conversation." Whether its about politics or civility at a website or porn or ecology, etc etc. There is always a conversation. The how, what, where, and why of plugging in defines us...especially here in WikiWorld. I think we are plugged into a similar sockets. I'm starting to rant so I'll stop. TRA!...Buster Seven Talk 15:24, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikiville: Think of Wikipedia as a town, and all the users as the citizens. That essay springs to mind. If people could think of "community volunteers" who go around, unpaid, scrubbing graffiti off walls, litter- and poo-picking in the playground, replacing the glass in the vandalised telephone boxes, rather than the Civility Police, it might work better. Of course, if you're the oik who's just been found spraying the graffiti and leaving the heavy-breathing phone calls, you're not going to be best pleased with any kind of "policing". We need the equivalent of ASBO's here in WikiLand, not just fines, imprisonments, and the rest. An ASBO still leaves you with your freedom, so long as you don't violate its terms.
As for The Conversation, if we ever get the go-ahead to re-write the thing, its own talk page sounds like a sensible place! No reason why non-team-members can't still talk on the talk page (provided they behave!) Pesky (talkstalk!) 15:54, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Portal talk:Current events/Sports

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NNot an area I know enough about. Pesky (talkstalk!) 11:30, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

A difficult concept

[1] I was told earlier today that my TFA is not of "main page quality". How am I expected to react to that? Malleus Fatuorum 21:07, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Plonk a {{sofixit}} onto the talk page of the person who told you that? ;P The template is WikiApproved, and therefore "officially civil". And have a large beer, and a big hug (>**)> Pesky (talkstalk!) 22:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm off out now to have several large beers with my brother before the pubs shut. I may be gone for some time. Malleus Fatuorum 22:28, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Pat the penguins for me on the way. Pesky (talkstalk!) 22:30, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Please remove

This contribution[2] is inappropriate and beyond the norms of good faith discussion. I'm not a party to the case, and I'd appreciate it if you would desist from running to the evidence page with some kind of trumped up complaint over my not buying your cultural relativity argument. I'm going to reorganize my contributions to that page, because by participating there I am consenting to a discussion, not to being hauled before Arbcom as evidence. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Hey, Wikidemon - it's the discussion which is relevant to the subject of civility, really. I had hoped it wasn't going to go the way it did; but it's an example of where I was seriously offended by the suggestion that we Brits (not just myself, but others, too, including Boing said Zebedee (see the thread below) were all saying that the word wasn't misogynist / sexist in the UK, and then you apparently disbelieving what we were saying. And then disbelieving that I was offended, as well - and pretty much making out that I was pretending to be offended, and so on I really did find that whole thing very uncivil. Sorry if you have trouble believing that, but I did. And when the whole case is hinging on people's different definitions of what is uncivil, and Malleus being blocked hours after the initial offending word had been redacted in any event, having not originally removed it when Deb said she found it offensive, it really began to seem that it wasn't a case of "whether someone found something offensive" at all. It seems that it only matters if certain people think that someone else found something offensive.

You apparently just chose not to believe me when I said I was genuinely offended.

And now you're calling it "trumped up".

If the Arbs think it's not relevant as a comparison of the different ways in which incivility is perceived, then they can choose to ignore it, but I think it's actually a good example.

I'm just sorry that it ended up being one. :o( I hope you can understand why I'd rather leave it up to the Arbs to ignore if they don't think it's relevant to the question of civility. Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I've pointed out on that talk page that you seem to have misread what I wrote. You are indeed doing something ridiculous and unwarranted, taking offense over something that isn't there. Again, I'd ask you to reconsider dragging me before the committee and making me point out your error to them. It's not germane to the case, and it's unwelcome that you're trying to make an example out of me. Far better to unwind the latest few plies back and forth and try to respond to what the other is actually saying within the bounds of the discussion itself. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:26, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Grrrr! Frustration! I'm darned sure that if we could actually share a beer (no, not the one-glass-two-straws variety!) we'd be able to understand each other much, much better. I've tried to explain the way I saw it; I think the glitch was just that we lack sufficient means of emphasis and intonation. I'm sure that's the cause of 75% of misunderstandings online.

The way it came across, on-screen was that you found it implausible that the speaker (and by extension, all of us Brit speakers saying the same thing) didn't know how offensive it was; that the word was offensive in that sexist, misogynistic way. (I'm trying to work my way around this explanation, if I get it right, you'll understand it.)

I was offended because what I understood from that was that you didn't believe we didn't know that elsewhere it had the extra-offense of being sexist, too, despite it having been said over and over. That was why I was offended - because of your apparent disbelief in what we were all saying. What happened next was that Dave Dial put up a very snarky, sarcastic post; following that, from my angle of vision, was that I was then scoffed at for having been offended.

And then disbelieved, again, about having been offended. I'm trying to make a real effort to understand the way you express yourself, because I'd like to think that you don't mean stuff the way it comes across. Things like "You are indeed doing something ridiculous and unwarranted, taking offense over something that isn't there."

Well, it was there, if you read it that way. From my point of view it was there; from yours it wasn't. Implausible that we didn't know how (sexist, misogynistic) offensive it was.

I don't know whether perhaps you just use words differently from the way I do, but a lot of the words you choose (like "claimed", "supposedly offended", and so on) have strong connotations of "this person is lying about this - they are pretending to have been offended". So, now that you're aware of that, wouldn't you personally be offended if someone had implied that you were only pretending to have been offended? I'm sure you would.

I wish I could hear your tone of voice and see your body language when I read your words. The words themselves, purely black-on-white, come across as scathing, contemptuous, belittling. Did you mean them to be? If not, then I'm sorry we've misunderstood each other.

I can't see how to use that conversation - which was such a good example, the way I saw it, of someone having been genuinely offended by something, saying so, then offended again, and scoffed at - as an illustration of the differing views on "what is incivility", without referring to the conversation. I'll certainly consider striking it out of evidence, with the comment that it arose from no-fault-either-way misunderstanding, if that will really make you happier. I would like to make sure, though, that you really do understand what there was to be offended by - by looking at it the way it came out, not just the way you meant it. And if you could avoid using words which carry the implication that you don't believe what people are saying, then people are much less likely to be offended by apparent assumptions of bad faith. Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I've removed that; I was pretty sure, reading through your other posts, that we must have been getting our wires totally crossed there somewhere, as you seemed like a perfectly rational person everywhere else!

I'm really glad we finally managed to iron out the wrinkles in that one, it was getting to feel a bit surreal, lol! Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:54, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Random thoughts

I personally think that all of the above is a classic example of how much unrecognized sexism exists on WP, especially where there is also a generational divide. We "crones" were the "witches" of times past, attacked viciously for no more than seeing and speaking the truth. And the vitriol we encounter now when we but speak the truth would make us, if they could, be burned for witchcraft on WP today, wouldn't we? (Kim V just "retired" again over yet another wiki-war, FYI, I'd make book on when she returns, though -- it's an addiction, this! ) Montanabw(talk) 03:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

So true! In some cases (whether we're females or not) we encounter the Salem Witch Trials all over again: s/he's a witch! Burn her/him!
Kim V is not allowed to retire. This is absolutely verboten. We need all the geniuses we can get, in here! hehe! To make your book, work out the mean, the maximum and the minimm lengths of wikibreaks so far, asses the "value" of the trigger, apply to the usual statistics, place your bet in the appropriate place with a margin of error of about 15% to allow for Real Life Issues. Betcha it's going to be in that range!
The problem that Wikidemon and I have just got over was a pure and simple case of each of us being on opposing interpretations of an ambiguity; I'm sure that this kind of thing happens far more often than we think it does. But both of us seem to be (predominantly!) sane and rational people, so we were (eventually) able to reason our separate ways through what had happened, continue to communicate without either of us getting too terribly stressed out, and come to a truth together, realising that actually we both felt the same ways about the same things, just had misunderstood each other. I made a point of reading through all of Wikidemon's other communications in the same area and noticing that s/he actually seemed to be very sane and reasonable, though we didn't always agree on things, so the inevitable conclusion I had to come to was that we had just got severely crossed wires and totally misunderstood each other. No probs. Pesky (talkstalk!) 11:06, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
“I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heardread is not what I meant.”
I too thought it strange that you and editor Wikidemon were bumping heads. I quickly realized that my favorite quote had, once again, come in to play. ---Buster Seven Talk 15:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I do wish that I could invite a few chosen editors to my neck of the woods, actually meet them in real life, and introduce them to our locally-brewed ale! Misunderstandings would be far fewer and farther between. And besides, it's really good ale! ('Specially this one Lovely stuff ;P.) And the Pub Grub is cheap, and excellent; there are semi-feral ponies wandering in the car park; dogs are allowed indoors (even in the restaurant, where they may lurk under tables); and there's a proper hitching-rail for visitors on horseback. Pesky (talkstalk!) 15:45, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Okay, okay – the hitching rail is for the horses, not the visitors, but y'all knew what I meant! Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:02, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Sounds like my kind of place! Even out here in the wild west we have replaced hitching rails with parking lots! Montanabw(talk) 18:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
If you lived where I do, you would never want to move. Holiday somewhere with mountains, maybe; but not moving away. You'll have to come over for a holiday some time. Ideally when I have two or more stout ponies ride-able, so I can introduce you to the parts of the Forest seldom seen by anyone other than the locals. Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:10, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
If I get to the UK, you and Richard will be the first two people I go look up! And back atcha if you ever come to Montana. Montanabw(talk) 18:59, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Expect some glitches

Today is very much a morphine-day, so please excuse any minor glitches in judgment etc. Pesky (talkstalk!) 14:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Cool! Will that mean you can go tell JLAN to back off from Buckaroo and Azteca horse now?? He is outvoted and tendentious. I'm about ready to call him that J---A-- word again and really would prefer to avoid doing so. Montanabw(talk) 18:58, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
If consensus is against him, he really is outvoted, and genuinely being tendentious, has anyone told him this yet? In straight, objective terms, not emotive or impatient? If he's been told, several times, you could either advise him to take it to DRN (in which case he's going to have an independent wossname view and may take that on board (worth a try); alternatively, after such a long history, you may be looking at RfC/U or possibly AN/I if you have a situation which really does call for a short block to avoid real disruption.
Have a go at a really, really patient pointing out that as nothing's pleasing him where he is, take it to DRN. See what happens. Probably not a good idea for me to try and get onto it myself at the mo; intense pain (really spiky pins and needles all over left arm, shoulder, side of neck, with electric-cattle-prod shocks, burning and aching across the shoulders, and trigeminal neuralgia-type pain in the head!) is making me a bit more irritable than usual, and morphine is clouding my judgment a little, so I wouldn't be at my best just now. Morphine isn't brill at dealing with neuro pain, but it's the best I have available. More standard neuro-pain meds cause unwanted side-effects for me; the side-effects are almost as bad as the initial pain! Best of luck; let me know how you get on. Pesky (talkstalk!) 19:05, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Dana has tried patient over and over again, to no avail. (What is DRN?) I've tried forceful, I've tried logic, the bottom line is JLAN thinks he is always right and everyone else is stupid. I don't think there is any hope of reforming him. It would be nice to be wrong, but I've seen too many other people besides me beat their head against the wall with him. Poor Pesky, you have my sympathy for the pain stuff. Montanabw(talk) 19:30, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I've dropped a very short note at Buckaroo; this may (or may not) help. WP:DRN is the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard (yup, that place where Stallion ended up, with the irate IP!) It's really the first port of call for JLAN, a fresh pair of eyes, removed from the articles themselves, can look at the situation (just like with the Stallion thing) and then JLAN would see what an independent view is. Hope that works - suggest it to him, if he's really bothered. As in a "DRN or shut up" kind of approach. If he's confident enough in his opinion, and he's confident enough that other people are just out to get him, he should have no qualms about taking it to DRN. If he refuses to do that to get the independent view, then you could approach AN/I for a topic ban on anything to do with horse height measurements, or possibly (as a last resort) on anything to do with horses.
Re pain, thankfully my timer told me a short while back that I could have another 20mg of morphine, so expect my thought processes to be a little wobbly! Pesky (talkstalk!) 19:36, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Good advice, and hang in there, dearie! Montanabw(talk) 01:29, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Wobble onwards, and ever upwards, always twirling, twirling, twirling (Aliens pretending to be Presidential candidates off the Simpsons). Thanks for emending one of those pieces of evidence I put with better context. Fifelfoo (talk) 08:48, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
You're welcome. I though a very brief explanation there might save the Arbs a bit of time in working out what went wrong! Pesky (talkstalk!) 08:51, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

"RfA is a horrible and broken process" Jimbo

Query: Is Jimbo's quotation linked in the evidence section of the civility case? I did a text search for "Jimbo" in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Civility_enforcement/Evidence without a result. I have been depressing myself reading the civility case and came across your "'RfA is a horrible and broken process.' Jimbo" quotation via this then case history (so I ended up depressing myself more). Point is, the whole civility case started at RfA did it not? If we can find the Jimbo quote and given supporting context it should, in my opinion, be part of the evidence (top level acknowledgement supporting the motivation for MF's frustrations at that venue) --Senra (talk) 16:52, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Here's the diff! I'll add it to the case history page. He was mainly referring to the bloodbath / snarkfest that happens so often at RfA - for some reason, people seem to have the impression that WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA just don't apply at RfA. Which is daft, because it's perfectly possible to make an oppose !vote without either being uncivil or resorting to personal attacks, if one takes the trouble to think of the right wording. Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Sidebar> " think of the right wording." Words to live by. Buster Seven Talk 21:04, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Another cup of tea for you!

Meissen-teacup pinkrose01.jpg A cup 'o' tea; hope you get better soon. Cheers, HurricaneFan25 16:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! I've just heard from the hospital today that my ace neurosurgeon is hoping to be able to operate early in February :o) I am soooo looking forward to that surgery! I've put off having that message box for as long as possible, but it's developed to the stage where it's making its presence felt here, a bit. No matter how many typo's I correct, I always miss some! Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:14, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

[scrunch, scrunch, scrunch ....] Mmmmmm, fank yew! Pesky (talkstalk!) 05:43, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Another kitten for you!

Young cats.jpg

I was not aware of any of the events described by you here. My goodness, Pesky. I do not have the words to say how bad I feel about a community that could treat anyone in the unjust way you described. It seems to me that too many Wikipedia community postings suffer from a ditto mentality. I entirely agree with you, that every editor should judge each case themselves before embarking on a "me too" response. Please accept this small token as a reminder that at least one other editor feels as you do. If any lurkers have any doubt about what I mean above, read the case in its entirety, including all diffs!

Senra (talk) 17:46, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Awww, kitteh! That is so cute! Thank you.
rant/That case knocked me endways - I just couldn't believe that so many people would just jump onto the "She's a witch! Burn her!" bandwagon, without the slightest attempt to check whether the allegation was actually backed up by the history. It's not as if a page history is hard to check - real "can't be arsed" approach. Shocking - to pass judgment, even to the extent of saying I deserved a block, without either checking the facts or waiting to hear from the accused! Or totally ignoring any and all evidence for the defence. Salem witch trials mentality ruled OK! I have to say that something miraculous would have to happen to restore any faith or respect I ever had for some of those people. Some made genuine mistakes and errors of judgment - but some just chose to pass judgment. There's a difference. One should never jump to a conclusion in the absence of sufficient or accurate data. Particularly if one considers oneself either fit to edit or competent to be an admin. /endrant Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Whilst I am aware that, stereotypically, my gender does not engage in such activities, I have, nevertheless, stopped crying now. Chin up! We have an encyclopaedia to finish. He he --Senra (talk) 18:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Good God – we can't finish the thing! What on earth would we find to occupy us once it was finished! I suppose we could look into the possibilities of PoetPedia, and rewrite every article as a poem .... fully referenced, of course! To quote many children's TV programmes, "Here's one I made earlier ..." Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:18, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
On that note, please peek at Talk:Azteca horse The admin locked down the article with JLAN's version, adding a clunky chart. I want it gone. Dana wants it gone. I'm so sick of JLAN that I am ready to scream. I'm busy in real life, I don't need this drama, but I really don't want to see a brand new GA of Dana's get trashed within days because of JLAN's various obsessions. He sent me a nice email once too, a long time ago. But nothing since and he's just getting worse and worse. What part of "horses are measured in hands, en wiki is written in English, and the nation that happened to open the first registry doesn't dictate to the rest of the planet" is he not getting? Montanabw(talk) 19:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
I totally agree with you there - the chart is truly an eyesore, and I have said so. All that is needed for an explanation about various types of Azteca and how they are described is a short sentence with a ref to a page where the full explanantion and chart appears (it must appear somewhere ...) WP:DUE and all that jazz - we don't need screensful of chart to cover one quite small aspect of the Azteca. Pesky (talkstalk!) 09:40, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
On the subject of JLAN, I will attempt to drop an acceptable note onto his talk page about the quarrelsome issues; it probably won't help, but there's a chance that it might. As I've not been involved in any particular squabbles myself with him, he may be able to view it with less history-befuddled ingrained defensiveness if it comes from me. Fingers crossed! Pesky (talkstalk!) 09:52, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
You don't get enough kittens, dear! Montanabw(talk) 16:55, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Aaaahh, but have two giant real-life cats, as well as one standard moggy, and Bryn (four feet long, nose-tip to tail-tip, and 10KG) likes nothing better than to snuggle up alongside me on the bed whenever he can. Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:59, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Smart Cat!--Buster Seven Talk 21:22, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
You're jealous! Of a cat! Hehe! Pesky (talkstalk!) 21:42, 13 January 2012 (UTC)


You've got one ;) WormTT · (talk) 15:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

I shall get around to checking, some time soon! Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:10, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Glitchy day again

[sigh]. Lots of painz, lots of morphinez. Pesky (talkstalk!) 14:56, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Dream. Buster Seven Talk 15:58, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
No, nightmare! lol! I am waiting in hope for the letter or phone call giving me a surgery date. Then I can start the countdown-to-cure :o) Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:40, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

But ...

One of life's great joys and no-cost fun things ... walking across frozen, crunchy grass, with bare feet :o) amazing sensation; some people don't know what they're missing when they have their feet enclosed in footwear all the time. Pesky (talkstalk!) 19:57, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd say I will pray for you but I don't want to be accused of being a bible-belter....(I'll pray anyway)---Buster Seven Talk 20:23, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
I have no objection to people praying for me, turning over their crystals for me, invoking some spirit I've never heard of for me, or anything else which is respectful of the "First do no harm" approach, regardless of what it may be :o) But anyone suggesting that a nice deep massage around the affected area would cure it, and making any moves towards doing so, should expect to find themselves comprehensively flattened before they can do any harm ;P And despite the physical problems, I'm of the opinion that I could probably still put an insubordinate cow onto her back, if needed! That one's strength, experience, and knack! Pesky (talkstalk!) 20:30, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
I say "offer supplication to the deity or not-deity of your choice." But an Insubordinate cow, eh? Have you read cow tipping? The mythical recreational activity of Minnesota? Montanabw(talk) 23:24, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
heh! No, you can't just push them over! The knack involves a firm nose-grip with one hand and ear grip with the other ... and to say any more would be a bit beansy – and you never know who might read this page's history in the future! I'd hate to be blamed for a spate of unnecessary cow-subduing, sometime, somewhere! Pesky (talkstalk!) 05:19, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
Rural folks know better and proper technique may or may not help a cow-tipping City slicker from self-nominating for a Darwin award. LOL! Montanabw(talk) 22:44, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

The Case

Editors can not be goaded into an aggressive response. No matter what the other editor does or says or types, there is no acceptable Pavlovian response that allows aggression. Whatever the new policy states, it should not even hint that, under certain conditions, it is OK to use words that are unexceptable in most every social setting. Hope your health issues get resolved. §:~)..Buster Seven Talk 22:30, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

But really bad spelling is OK?  ;=D Montanabw(talk) 00:54, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
And that should of course be "Pavlovian response", not "Pavlov response". What the Hell happened to the teachers? Can they spell? Malleus Fatuorum 02:07, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
I kn spel!
Seriously, in the vast majority of cases, we shouldn't allow ourselves to be goaded into losing it. My essay covers my real-life situation, and I can with all honesty say that over the past year, I've only "lost it" with mother on three or four occasions - the most recent when she tried to double-barrel mule-kick me in the face while I was trying to get her back supported on her chair! (And yes, I did really yell at her for that one: "Don't you dare do that!") Sadly in one way, but in another way perhaps easier, is that she's now just on the edges of advanced dementia, so is much less argumentative. We've just bought her a wheelchair, slide sheets, and a handling belt (on eBay, of course!), with semi-professional input from my elder daughter, who is a care assistant at the care home where mother goes for a weekend every now and then so we can get a break. Having a family member who can tell you which items are good and which are total crap can be very handy!
I've never found losing it with a human to be very effective, but the ability to drop an animal to the floor and pin it down has stood me in good stead a few times ;P Not a technique which can be used with an eight-foot boa with some "behavioural issues", though; you just have to be incredibly tactful and perceptive, and always, always have a second person available when handling Cuddles. She's just too big and strong and fast now to take any risks with. You cannot afford to let your focus off her at all; it's things like looking for the slight change in the tilt of her head, a fraction of a head-raised withdrawal, and that sudden total stillness which comes for a split second just before a lightning-fast strike.
Health issues: the neck's an absolute bastard. There's only one position I can put my head in, now, which results in an absence of symptoms, and as that one's the chin-on-chest, tipped-to-the-right position, it can't be done for long at a time. Other positions each have their own assorted string of unpleasant sensations, which just move from one place to another depending on which part of which nerve root is getting most seriously compromised at the time. I am sooooooo looking forward to surgery! But I can still do that wry grin thing and say "Half the discs in my neck seem to be OK!" The three in a row at C4, C5 and C6, which are FUBAR, are a bummer. I've never made as many typos in my life as I've done over the past six weeks or thereabouts, and it does make me ratty and over-sensitive a lot of the time. I find myself getting weepy for next to nothing; total wimp! Pesky (talkstalk!) 10:56, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
I feel for you there with the pain and suffering bit! As for not being baited, some of us are wired differently than others. I for one couldn't keep my aging parents in my home, you are amazing to do that! If I were forced to do so, the only question is whether a homicide or a suicide would occur first! (LOL) Likewise, some of us are just made to be fiesty. I fear I might be the one trying to mule-kick my care providers in my declining days... Someone I respect a great deal put the dealing with aging parents thing to me well: "Try to figure out how to feel appropriate sadness at their passing instead of thinking "good riddance!" (sigh...) Montanabw(talk) 03:38, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
If I get dementia, I am going to be pure hell to deal with, I know! And if I get it while retaining the strength and knacks acquired through dealing with large animals, and my internal Monster gets uninhibited, I could end up being not only hell, but potentially lethal to deal with :o(. I hope I don't get dementia. Meanwhile, me being me, I don't really trust anybody other than family to do the job properly! (And I'm setting an example to my own offspring about "not sending the old baggage off to a home" ;P, in the hopes that they'll adopt the teamwork approach in looking after me when the time comes! I couldn't stand being separated from my Forest; it's the one place where I feel a total sense of belonging.) Pesky (talkstalk!) 10:22, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Another-nother kitten for you!

Young cats.jpg

Thanks! I was reading Nozdref's talk page and suddenly see your note on Reflinks. I'll use this method.

Kavas (talk) 21:01, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the kitteh! Reflinks has saved me so much time and hassle since I was pointed to it :o) I'm sure it will do the same for you, too. Pesky (talkstalk!) 09:29, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
Note to stalkers: this is the purest joy about leaving huge numbers of help tips, tips with referencing, things to make someone's life easier, on talk pages – it's when people I've never interacted with come across it and find it helpful. It's my "second generation: :o) Pesky (talkstalk!) 10:33, 22 January 2012 (UTC)


As indicated here, both the evidence and the workshop pages and their respective talk pages are closed. Cheers. Salvio Let's talk about it! 14:00, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry - I though it was just the main pages which were closed, not their talk pages as well! Pesky (talkstalk!) 14:20, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


you are a howl girl. :) — Ched :  ?  14:56, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I iz possibly a were-human ...
  • I'm possibly wondering if perhaps we're related. :) .. back years ago when I did those things called chat rooms, I often went by the moniker of "Lone Wolf". In fact, my facebook profile picture is a wolf. I have tons of t-shirts, statues, nick-nacks and such of wolves. My own current "right next to me when I move" dog/mut falls very short of that, but I do have a husky/shepard/chow/wolf mix that is kind of close. great pic, ty. — Ched :  ?  21:37, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I've always loved wolves; I tend to paint them, from time to time. I have a lovely German-Shepherd-plus-bit-of-Newfie bitch, whcih I had hoped to breed to a Husky when she was young, but she got a nasty infection and had to be spayed, poor girl. They would have been lovely wolf-like pups, too! I've always wanted to do one of those two-year live-close-to-wolf-pack things, as part of a research project, but it passed me by, and I don't see it as being likely to happen now. They're wonderful creatures. Pesky (talkstalk!) 22:45, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Get out here to Montana, lots of real wolves here. We even have some ranchers who'd be glad to send you a few! Montanabw(talk) 03:39, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
I wish I could! But too many commitments here at home (not to mention lack of funds for holidays!) Pesky (talkstalk!) 08:05, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Bye for now

No need to reply to my comment at MF's page (or on mine), he just lost the project another editor/admin. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Have you tried encouraging this "editor/admin"?
Or is your goal to complain about Malleus?
 Kiefer.Wolfowitz 11:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
It's hard to encourage oneself :o(. I still am nowhere near recovered from December's little party. But I'm "hanging in there" and hoping some inspiration and energy will strike once my operation's done and dusted. Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:58, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

A kitten from Kudpung!


I'm taking a break, Pesky. Dunno how long it will be. Don't let the Wikiwolves snap at your ankles too much! Cheers,

Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:25, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Awwww :o( Try not to be away too long; we need you too much! Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:57, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Do we really need administrators who believe that the civility policy only applies to others, not to them? Malleus Fatuorum 16:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
I've had dealings with Kudpung for quite a long time, and it takes an awful lot to make him less than civil (in my experience, anyway). There are far, far worse out there (and I bet you could name at least a dozen without even having to think about it!) WikiLand seems to be turning itself into the Slough of Despond. (That's the really manky bit of Slough, down by the railway lines, by the way ...) Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:13, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
That's certainly not been my experience, not by a long chalk. Malleus Fatuorum 17:17, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Strange. Could be just a bog-standard personality clash, I s'pose. (>**)> Hugz, anyway. You must be going through it a bit at the moment. Despite not giving a fuck. ;P Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:21, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

Happy Birthday Offspring!

My oldest is 30 today! Seems like yesterday, the day he was born. Being rushed full-pelt along the hospital corridor, on a trolley, with the anaesthetist pumping the gunge into me on the run, and the consultant (bless her!) yelling "Get out of the fucking way!" to people in the doorway ... emergency C-section! Pesky (talkstalk!) 10:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I thought that people didn't use such foul language in a professional environment? ;-) Malleus Fatuorum 15:32, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Oh, they do, they do! You should hear vets when they're on the receiving end of a bit of aggression from a large animal ... Pesky (talkstalk!) 15:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I have, and even small ones, like when there's a ferret hanging off one of their fingers. And you should hear academics talking about one another.[3]. Malleus Fatuorum 15:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Aahhh, classic! But then again, all those professionals that we Brits hear with this stuff are ... well ... Brits, for the most part! Or they've been here long enough to have been infected ;P Pesky (talkstalk!) 15:58, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
The discussion of you on the trolley reminds me of the scene in one of the Monty Python movies where the doctors tell the frightened woman in labor that she doesn't have to do a thing, they have the machine that goes "eep" - and such! And as for offspring, mine will hit the big 3-0 next year. How the heck did THAT happen? I'm not a day over 30 myself, I swear it!!! Montanabw(talk) 19:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
It's because of darns in the Fabric of Reality. (Denim, or some such.) What we're experiencing is a time warp, though whether it's the Star Trek sort or the Rocky Horror sort, I haven't yet decided. Apparently this sort of time warp only affects those over 40 ;P Pesky (talkstalk!) 12:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

poor dispute resolution

re [4]. We're going about it all wrong. Editors calmly discussing differing opinions doesn't attract any attention. You should revert me with a snarky comment with an innuendo insult, I'll revert you with a sexist, ageist, and/or nationalistic insult. Next we go to ANI and sling mud at each other, and then we'll get some other editors contributing to the content discussion. Nobody Ent 14:53, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Haha! (>**)> Hugzies ! How on Earth can we judge "consensus" when there are only two of us talking?! Pesky (talkstalk!) 15:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
(lurker comment) since you have my unconditional proxy, i saw no reason to comment. one suggestion, i have a fudge brownie wikilove template, for all use of the fudge word. Slowking4†@1₭ 15:48, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
You and a hundred others, perhaps? Wheeeee! I win, then! And the fudge word is heard an awful lot around people working with large animals! Pesky (talkstalk!) 15:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I thing you meant "think", not "thing" here [5] Nobody Ent 00:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Brownie Neumüller Ferdinand cropped.jpg
DragonflySixtyseven has given you a fudge brownie! Fudge brownies promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a fudge brownie, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Your use of the φψκing fudge word adds to the brownie flavor of wikipedia.

Alexander technique

The article about the Alexander technique may appeal to you, given your impulses to do justice, practice mercy, and walk humbly. It also concerns chronic back-pain and British health care.  Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:56, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Been using stuff like / from that for yonks! My chronic med problems are because of Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome; no cure, just running repairs. I feel too burnt-out to work on that article myself; I tried looking for a couple of refs, and ended up reading scholarly pdf's in their entirety, and ended up with discomfort because of doing so! Heh! Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:09, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Ah! Have you seen my new/expanded DSLD article? Montanabw(talk) 18:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Just looked! I suppose the geneticists have had the basic common sense to check out all the equine equivalents of the usual suspect genes in human EDS? Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Where would you like me to show my evidence?

Pesky, I would be happy to supply that evidence. I have found several pages that use DO to describe physicians with this qualification including pages from: DO professional organizations, government pages, peer-reviewed research from academic journals (government pages and peer-reviewed journals are noteworthy to address the objection brought up that the term DO was colloquial and not suitable as a formal word but I have found it is used in formal arenas as mentioned). Where would it be best for me to supply the evidence in the form of links? Here or on your talk page or a different page? As for literaturegeek's response, I do accept the premise of wikipedia consensus but I do not believe wikipedia consensus has been achieved yet since we are still in the phase of presenting arguments/evidence to attempt to persuade other editors and work toward consensus building not to mention only a few of us have even participated in this debate at all though I do not know if a certain amount of people need to participate in a debate to achieve consensus or not. Anyway, please let me know where you would like me to present evidence of my claims and I will do so. I left this response on the dispute resolution noticeboard page as well but I wanted to make sure you could see it since I was primarily addressing your response. DoctorK88 (talk) 20:13, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Not here, I'm just a passer-by throwing my twopence'-worth into the pot for consideration! I don;t know if DRN would be the place; it's worth a shot. If nothing gets settled satisfactorily there, you could always do a request for comment on it and see if you can get a wider audience to participate. Pesky (talkstalk!) 22:02, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
So, are you one of the clerks on the DRN board or just an editor weighing in? Just curious, either way, I do appreciate your input, I definitely agree that the more opinions on this issue the better. Is that what the request for comment is for? I had no idea. I might look into that more, thank you. DoctorK88 (talk) 02:21, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm in the "just another editor" category :o) The request for comment is precisely what it says – a request for comments from other editors, to get something to a wider audience, get more input, and (hopefully!) find out what the consensus really is for including / excluding something. It doesn't always work well, but when it does, it's very good. Pesky (talkstalk!) 08:36, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Okay, thank you for the advice. I haven't been editing wikipedia for all that long and I do it informally (just like everyone else I imagine) during down time. I will look into the request for comment thing since, as you said, it will hopefully get more editors to weigh in on the issue and so far only a few editors (who I think are being unreasonable) have engaged in the discussion. I appreciate your input on the dispute resolution board. If you have any other advice or ideas feel free to drop me a line on my talk page or on the DRN again. Sincerely, DoctorK88 (talk) 16:55, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Hello – and, sorry!

Hello Pesky, I was looking through some old stuff earlier and was shocked and appalled to see that, in April last year, I'd told Chzz that I'd have a look at History of the horse in Britain "some time soonish", but had forgotten all about it! All I managed to do was to try passing the buck (surely a stallion, in this context!) to Ealdgyth... Really sorry, real life excuses etc. I see that the History of the horse in Britain is now a GA, so I'm a bit late (typical British understatement) – I do tend to plough my own furrow in WP, but if there's anything similar I can do to make up for it, feel free to ask me directly, though I be not worthy etc... Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 15:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Hehehehe! No problems. I'm hoping to get some more material on the history of some horse-related things, add it to the article, and attempt to push it in the general direction of FA, at some point. I'd like to get The Meermin slave mutiny to FA at some point, too ... but it's that Real Life stuff again, keeps getting in the way! Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Ah, thanks Pesky! Yes, I noticed the bit at the top about needless neurological nastiness in real life – one of many things I'd have left out (Parental Guidance: F-word! lol)... I have my own issues which, as far as WP is concerned, mean my access to sources can be frustratingly limited, but you win that contest by numerous lengths. I just had a quick squint at The Meermin slave mutiny, and thought I spotted a few bits and bobs I might change – my teenager is due to descend on me this eve for a film-watching session, but, when I get a mo, I might post some 'umble suggestions on the article's talk page...? Speak later then. Nortonius (talk) 17:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
If you see anything which needs a tweak, just go ahead and tweak it! The only reference which looks (at a first glance) "iffy" is the Mermaid Guest House one - but it's actually written by the same guy as this, so he's a RS on the subject. Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok! Right now, though, my brain's creaking towards seeing how else that infobox image could be captioned, for example, and I don't want to ruffle any feathers by barging in on key features like - er - that one! So, anything you don't like, just revert it, take it to talk, whatever! I see what you mean about the Mermaid Guest House ref - but you should see the single most cited ref at Reculver, "Gough 2001": published by a caravan site, and only available thanks to the Internet Archive Wayback Machine! The author's had plenty of stuff published "properly", just, not that one! I've just started on trying to get it published somewhere more spiffy, but who knows, I'm not holding my breath... Anyway I wouldn't worry too much about your guest house ref for now, would be my take on it - we're both in the same boat! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 23:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Maybe you've seen this but, if you can get to the library of the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, or perhaps more likely get someone there to do a scan for you, or arrange an inter-library loan, there's an image in Groenewegen, Gerrit (1789; re-printed ?1969), Verzameling van vier en tachtig stuks Hollandsche schepen, entitled "Driemast Hoeker Zeylende voor de wind" (spelling? "Three-masted hoeker Zeylende before the wind"?) that might be just what's needed for the infobox at The Meermin slave mutiny. Given that the book was originally published in 1789, copyright should be no issue, and I say the National Maritime Museum because I didn't see it available anywhere else in the UK, maybe I missed other copies? The book is mainly illustrations, so they ought to be decent quality, but I've found it in a recent journal article where the quality is frankly - ugh! Thing is, I hate to say it, but the ship in the infobox isn't what you want. Let me know! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 01:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
If you could hunt down a decent image for me, that would be amazing. I can't get to Greenwich (full time carer for frail elderly parent with dementia, and Greenwich is too far away to take her!) If I could get a copy of the blueprints that the Ikosu(?) museum has, I could paint the damned ship myself for the infobox (had to do similar for the Ice Age Map in History of the horse in Britain – and the crayonning is cutely visible in the pic, bless! Naif art at its best?)
Meanwhile, this might amuse you – it's just waiting for the creation of PoetPedia ;P Pesky (talkstalk!) 09:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Ah, The Saga of the Meermin! That's great, and I love your thinking behind it! I very much hope the Iziko museum takes it up, it's quite a story, and you make it very accessible. Actually, it also looks useful to me for all the refs– sort of a handlist of salient points with sources! Yes the Ice Age map is very cute, and does the job well, I only wish I could be bothered to do things like that... About images though, understood about Greenwich, perhaps an email to for the above 1789 hoeker image might do the trick...? Best be upfront about what it's for though, I would think– I once got a negative of something from the British Library with the proviso that I could only use it three times; but these days a scan of an 18th century book ought not to be a problem, if you get the right librarian, and ask the right way...? I'll keep looking, though: I'm a bit like a dog with a bone when it comes to that sort of thing, I keep coming back to it. Cheers for now. Nortonius (talk) 12:05, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Hello Pesky, you might notice I've just saved an edit of the Meermin slave mutiny. Let me know what you think? Don't be afraid to revert if you don't like it, I'll go away and leave it alone! But, while I'm here, I stopped where I did because I wanted to ask if you could clarify something: at present, the article has a period "from December to February 1765", should this be "December 1764 to February 1765", I wonder? Or were they sailing backwards? ;p I'd check for myself, but don't have access to the sources. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 14:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
I saw your edit, just as I refreshed my watchlist! Looks good; now I want another pic for where the ship used to be! December 1765 to February 1766 would be the dates there. I'm surprised nobody else noticed that! (including me - slapped wrist for me!) Pesky (talkstalk!) 14:25, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Ah good, thanks! Yes, another pic would be good, at the moment I'm holding out for the one in that 18th century Dutch book - if we get that, I'd stick it in the infobox and move the painting back where it was. [sticks head tentatively above the parapet, wondering if he's up for it] Would you like me to have a go at emailing the Greenwich museum library for it? One can only try... About the dates, great, I'll work that into the article. By the way, I haven't spotted anything yet about who the ship was originally built for, any idea? Was it the VOC? Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 14:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

If you'd like to email them, do go ahead :o) I think it says somewhere in one of the refs that the ship was commissioned for the VOC. Probably in the Chandler one ... I'll check.
Ooh! You've tidied those, too! Thank you! And I wonder if I can edit out that horrible modern background from that replica ship .... Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks yes please check for commissioning! I agree about the hideous background, what were they thinking?! But, judging by descriptions I've read of hoekers, this is a classic example of the Meermin's type, and the date's about right! Note e.g. the "apple cheeks" of the bow. I'm thinking that's exactly the kind of picture I was hoping to find (and it was there at WikiCommons all along...!), short of a picture of the Meermin itself, without the hideous background, so that'll do just fine for now? (shame it's not better lit, tho) Maybe Jaco Boshoff will eventually provide us with the goods...! In the meantime, if you can edit the image suitably, that would be fab. Nortonius (talk) 16:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Brit library - see Wikipedia:GLAM/BL, speak to  (talk · contribs)  Chzz  ►  09:52, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not far off finished "re-0painting" the background; hopefully will have it done by the end of today. It's a one-pixel-at-a-time job, in amongst all that netting, but should be worth it in the end :o) If it comes out trash, we'll have a look in the British Library. Pesky (talkstalk!) 10:47, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
[whoosh! SuperChzz swoops by!] Hi Chzz! :o) Great tip - as always! Sounds interesting Pesky - I was thinking of asking a photographer friend IRL to have a go if you were stuck, because he absolutely loves re-touching photos in Photoshop (Not really! He hates it, but sometimes will if I ask nicely...), but it sounds like you're busy! Maybe we should talk to Fæ anyway...? I'd love to see a more detailed, 18th century illustration of an 18th century ship in the article, as well as the photo you're working on, if you're happy with the result! Nortonius (talk) 11:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
By the way - would you mind if I changed the date format in refs e.g. from "2011-01-01" to "1 January 2011" (appropriately formatted, of course)? I find the former confusing to the eye, but the latter straightforward to read. Really I ought to ask on the article's talk page, but you're clearly the main editor! Nortonius (talk) 11:53, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
You're welcome to make any formatting changes like that which you want; I'll trust you! I quite enjoy working in Photoshop, actually – it's kinda soothing ;P Pesky (talkstalk!) 12:33, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Great, thanks! And, whatever floats your boat! ;o) My photographer friend only really complains because he's usually too busy - erm - taking photographs! ;p Nortonius (talk) 13:08, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

More on the Meermin

Yes check.svg Done Ship ahoy! Pesky (talkstalk!) 14:35, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
OMG - you're a [f]rigging genius! :o() No-one warned me, I'm scared now! lol No really, that's just brilliant. Ok my turn - I've found a journal article about the Meermin mutiny by Andrew Alexander, which wasn't cited in the article: email me if you'd like a look, and I'll see what I can do - assuming you don't already have it, that is! Yay for the ship photo! Nortonius (talk) 14:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Don't be scared; I'm harmless! Well, mostly ... With regard to commissioning, from the Chandler page it does look very much as though she was commissioned specially for the VOC. It doesn't say so outright, but it does say:

“The VOC stopped using hoekers towards the end of the 17th century,” explains Jaco Boshoff, maritime archaeologist at Iziko Museums of Cape Town. “But they constructed some periodically mainly for use at their colonies as multi-purpose vessels.” He says four hoekers were constructed in the second half of the 18th century for the Cape service ... “In fact the request for a new vessel from the government at the Cape in 1759 to their masters in Holland mentions the slave trade with Madagascar as one of the main functions for the new vessel.” ref

Point me at the journal article, and I'll see what other little nuggets of info I can dig out from it (if any). I'm still waiting for news of Meermin actually being identified, and archaeological work done one her. I have her on a Google news alert – so I'll get pinged the minute she hits the news! Pesky (talkstalk!) 14:56, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, yes I saw that in Chandler (apt name!), good, I'll see about working around it. About the article, you should be able access it here, soz I only just found it available online there. If not you'll have to email me (via my user page, obv). Chzz already knows who I am IRL, so that'd be fine by me...! About latest news, great, it was something that I thought was missing from the lead, I'll put something in shortly. :o) Nortonius (talk) 15:12, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
I've found one extra factlet in that Journal, so I'll bung that into the article. Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
So I see - I was doing something similar, but saw you'd already saved! Cool, I'll have another go in a bit, unless you give me the all-clear sooner. :o) Nortonius (talk) 17:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
You can have a go now - my neck's reminding me I should take a break! So she's all yours until tomorrow, if you like :o) Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok, ta! Sorry about the neck - my eyes keep telling me the same thing...! :o( Nortonius (talk) 18:43, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Well done for finding Koesaaij's death date – that was on my job list for today! :o) I'm going to upload a better-cleaned-up image of the ship, when I've tweaked it sufficiently to pacify my OCD ... Pesky (talkstalk!) 10:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
No problem - I've been reading Alexander 2007 especially, there are loads of juicy titbits in there, as one might expect! I'd started on putting some in the article, but the postie's just delivered something for Reculver, so I'm torn! Talking of torn, and your ObviouslyCorrectDisposition, the citations and sources at Meermin are a bit schizo at the moment - I've put some online sources in the list of sources, and left some in the citations, and this is why I changed the subsection heading "Bibliography" to "Sources". The ObviouslyCorrectDecision would be to have them both in one place or the other, but I haven't looked into any policy here - I might try sorting that out later, if you don't beat me to it...? In the process, though, I took out the ref to the Mermaid Guest House, as it's not needed any more - I think! It can always go back. Also gone are refs to Alexander 2003 - I think I've seen it described as "published" somewhere, but then, in Alexander 2007, p. 85(note 7) it's described as "unpublished", and I can't find it online anywhere, except merely listed. So, it can't very well be cited, methinks? Have fun with the photo - I'm so impressed with your first effort. :o) Nortonius (talk) 11:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC) p.s. I note that has been undergoing unpleasantness at WP:AN/I, so now may not be the best time to make contact re the hoeker image in the 18th century book, but it might offer a welcome diversion. I'll give it a go.

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────You carry on playing with text and refs, and I'll carry on playing with the picture. I thin Alexander's full thesis / theses was / were available on scientific commons, or something like that, can't remember exactly, off the top of my head. JSTOR or Wiley may have it, as well. I always find laughing at my OCD is one of the best ways to deal with it – at least acknowledging it is supposed to be a good step! Speaking of which, if you enjoy the same situation, I haz a NPOV version of the thing, and a userbox ({{User:ThatPeskyCommoner/OCDUserbox}} ) which you are welcome to share. Back to that picture ... the lower sections of the rigging are still looking a bit "heavy", to my eye ... Pesky (talkstalk!) 11:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

lol re the NPOV OCD! I've never been diagnosed as enjoying OCD, but I have noted such tendencies in myself! A friend is presently on course to becoming a chartered counselling psychologist, and I've been copyediting her written work: she dislikes the word "disorder" on principle, since it presupposes that something is wrong, whereas related clinical features are normally present in the wider population, and are therefore potentially correct– it's a matter of degree. Just thought I'd share that with you, not that you needed it! ;p
About Alexander 2003, I did notice that there were page numbers in citations– have you seen this BA thesis? There was a link to scientific commons, but following it got me nowhere– I currently have limited access to JSTOR (use that little nugget of disclosure by all means!), and I haven't found it listed there or at Wiley. If you or anyone else can get hold of it, gimme gimme! :o) Oh, and I've asked Fæ about the image. Nortonius (talk) 12:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
I managed to get temporary sight of some of it (I think I hacked into it somehow ... possibly a cached version; can't remeber exactly h ow or where!) He did both a BA and an MA one. It would be helpful if someone with scientific commons access could download it for us ;P C'mon, stalkers, now's your chance to shine! Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:40, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes, Alexander 2007 is just one chapter of his MA, where he skips most of the story of the Meermin! [much wailing and gnashing of teeth] And his BA is alluded to often enough to make me positively squirm with frustration... I've double-checked Google, no cached version there now, that I can see. :o( Yes, hooray for stalkers, do your stuff! ;op Also, Fæ's kindly taken up the quest for that 18th century image, but who knows if a tame librarian will oblige, and it'll be a few weeks. TTFN. Nortonius (talk) 17:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Meermin part 3

I've cleaned up the rigging more; this version looks less hacked-about (despite being more hacked-about) ;P Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Wow, you have been busy! I could see what you meant about the Moomin's lower rigging looking heavy before, it looks much lighter now - in this instance, to mangle Oscar Wilde, "the only thing worse than being hacked about is not being hacked about"! Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Now there's a set of books I haven't read for a while ... I'm much happier with that rigging now. The problem with it before was that it was against that awful greenish eyesore of a building, which was a bit hard to get rid of without also getting rid of the rigging. Anyway, I think I can leave it at that, now. Heh! Either that or something will wake me in the wee hours niggling away about the anachronistic flags ... if I knew which flags would have been the right ones, I could probably touch those up as well! Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Moominland... I never understood it all, myself! Probably too late now... The "awful greenish eyesore" is the Amsterdam Silence Museum, I expect you noticed that - for shame! When the replica ship is so magnificent, and something to so be proud of (unlike the history of the Meermin). I expect you've also noticed that pennants look to have been flown from the mast-tops, rather than flags, e.g. in the painting of 1792. Incidentally, you just might want to have a look at this site, which has lots of ship pictures on this page, though the best (and first) one's had its mast-tops cropped off [gah!]– actually, looking closely at the stern of the ship in the painting of 1792, I'd have thought it's the Noord-Holland, described here, if the file description didn't say it was the Noord-Nieuwland...? The intertubes can be a joy sometimes, but a right pest at others...! Nortonius (talk) 18:45, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) "Amsterdam Silence Museum"? I wondered if it was something to do with Anne Frank ... but no. Pesky, haven't you got a collection of gems like this? (Amazing photo manipulation, by the way - just reminds that you can never trust a photo of course!) PamD 09:16, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
lol– I'm glad you spotted that! But, I can't claim credit for it, it was wittily coined by a best mate's sister for the London Science Museum, c. 1980, when she'd have been about 23! :o) Nortonius (talk) 09:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
And here's the Meermin! Strange - they have her listed as a 450-tonner, despite being 110 ft long, as opposed to the usual 80ft length, 20 ft width Hoeker ... they also have a brief outline of the salve story; it's in Dutch, and seems to have nothing we don't already have! Pesky (talkstalk!) 19:24, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I got dragged away from the computer there by a friend bringing... BEER! Cool, I didn't stop to check for the Meermin– yes, that is odd. A swift calculation shows that 110 Amsterdam feet is just over 102' 2" imperial (thanks to Dutch units of measurement!), considerably more than 80' however you work it out; it also says that the Meermin "sank" on 9 April 1766 (if I've got the Dutch date format right), which is a bit late, since magistrate La Sueur got the bottled messages on 6 March...? A shame that there's this confusion, as it usefully says that the ship was built for the "Amsterdam Chamber" (of Commerce?) at the VOC yard in Amsterdam... Nortonius (talk) 00:26, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
VOC ship Amsterdam2.jpg
Three-masted Hoeker 2.jpg

Pretty pics :o) Pages look so much better with a few pics ...

I think she took quite a while to break up, once she grounded. They auctioned stuff from her for about a week, and then just let her lie. The April date is possibly just her "registered date of destruction" Pesky (talkstalk!) 08:56, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I have now removed the flags and the mooring posts ... heh! OCD rules OK! Pesky (talkstalk!) 10:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

From the pic on the left to the pic on the right! You may all express you admiration here ;P Pesky (talkstalk!) 11:29, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I wondered if those posts and springs might go, but yes anachronous flags be gone! Awesome! :o) Those little elongated rectangular blocks that are still there were, I think, only for the modern mooring to those posts, so– um– they could go too...? lol One near the bow with another, longer one just to the right and lower down, then several more near the stern. As if you haven't done enough already...! About the end date for the Meermin, ok that makes sense– I'm thinking I'll add that website to the sources then, and cite it. It looks fairly pukka, if a little "quaint": there are no ads, but I haven't spotted exactly whose website it is yet...?
About the weight: are we sure that "480 tons burthen" is right? That's what the "best source" says? This is a confusing business, and trying to work it out has dun my brayne in. The VOCsite's "Laadvermogen" apparently translates as "capacity, tons deadweight", so that is "tons burthen", yes? Again via Dutch units of measurement, if we take the 17th century VOC's last of 1,250 kg and multiply it by 225, we get metric and Imperial ton(ne)s in the upper 200s; but, if we take the "later (to 1807) last of 2,000kg" and multiply that by 225, we get exactly 450 tonnes metric (or about 443 tons Imperial; or, is that a fail, somewhere along the line...?). But you think that's too little, and it should be "480". Well, I think my calculation of "just over 102 ft 2 in" Imperial is probably ok, so that's a tad smaller than "110 voet", but by a fairly significant margin in the range 80–110 ft. Just to confuse things, though (lol), I note that 17th century Thames shipbuilders had a rule of thumb that tonnage burthen was about 3/5 of tonnage displacement (i.e. the weight of the ship itself in terms of sea water– oh boy!). 450 tonnes metric burthen would then be 750 tonnes metric displacement. But maybe tons displacement are irrelevant to this particular issue? Thoughts...? And, I'm sure I've read about the "usual 80 ft x 20 ft" hoeker– can you point to it for me? Right now I need to lie down in a darkened room...! ;op Nortonius (talk) 12:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC) p.s. Boshoff (the man with the plan) says here that the Meermin was "about… 30–odd meters long, so that’s quite small", 30 metres being almost 98.5 feet– close enough to 102 feet...?
Hehe! Fried brains, anyone? Ketchup?

De hoeker was eigenlijk een vissersvaartuig (vandaar de naam omdat het met hoekwant viste), maar werd ook wel voor de koopvaardij gebruikt. In 1664 besloot de VOC dit schip in haar vloot op te nemen. De Kamer van Delft kocht vier schepen. De Rotterdamse Kamer was de eerste die in 1667 de bouw van een serie hoekers startte. Al na 1670 verdwenen de hoekers weer uit de schepenlijsten van de VOC. ... De meeste hoekers waren 80 voet lang en 20 voet breed en hadden een holte van 11 voet. De hoeker had een brede boeg en achtersteven. Zij hadden een grote en een bezaansmast met vierkante zeilen. De grotere hoekers hadden ook nog een fokkemast, zoals de iets kleinere fluiten. Het zeil van de bezaansmast was dan vervangen door een driehoekig Latijns zeil.

Na 1670 werd nog slechts af en toe een hoeker gebouwd, zoals in 1695. Die was groter dan de andere: 90 voet en een duim lang, 23 voet en zes duim breed en een holte van 11 voet en 10,5 duim. ref, VOCsite

Translates approximately to this: "The hooker / hoeker was actually a fishing vessel (hence the name as fishing was done with hooks) but was also used as a merchant ship. In 1664 The VOC decided to include this type of ship in its fleet. The Delft Chamber built four ships. The Rotterdam Chamber was the first to build a series of hoekers starting in 1667. After 1670 there were no more hoekers in the VOC's ship lists. … Most hoekers were 80 feet (voet, actually) long and 20 feet (voet) wide and had a hole (cargo door?) of 11 feet. The hoeker had a wide bow and stern. They had a great mast and a mizzen mast with square sails. The larger hoekers also had a foremast and slightly smaller whistles. The mizzen mast sail was replaced with a triangular lateen sail. After 1670, only an occasional hoeker was built, as in 1695. That was bigger than the others: 90 feet (voet) and one inch long, 23 feet (voet) 6 ins wide, with a depth of 11 feet (voet) 10.5 inches."

Thing is, most hoekers were pine built, but Meermin was an oak-built ship, so would have been proportionately heavier for her dimensions than the standard pine-built ones (oak is significantly heaver than pine). I wonder if the VOC site have her burthen incorrect? Pesky (talkstalk!) 14:57, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmm! Thanks! (yes I've got lots of ketchup, but I'm vegetarian!) From the context, and the fact that it's a measurement in only one dimension, I'm pretty sure that "een holte van 11 voet" is actually "a draft of 11 voet", i.e. the ship's "hole" in the water– I think that sounds reasonable, plus, according to this, the fluit, from which hoekers originated, benefited from shallower draft. I've been racking my brains (again!) to work out what "kleinere fluiten" are, but have got nowhere yet– I'd like it to mean "smaller jibs", but there are all sorts of things it could mean, some quite rude... Stop press– duh, what a brainfart that was, I already used the word "fluit"! "Kleinere fluiten" are "smaller boats"! [whacks self in the face with a frying pan, à la Shooting Stars] But, why only "slightly smaller"? The longboat and pinnace were tiny compared to the ship. Something still doesn't make sense. And, "zoals in 1695" looks like it might be an error for "zoals in 1765". So, yes, the VOCsite could have other details wrong! Maybe we should ask Mr Boshoff! :o() Nortonius (talk) 15:59, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Facepalm3.svg Facepalm Erm, we could always try looking in that encyclopaedia thingie, and see if they have an article on Fluyt ships .... ahem. Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
lol! Yes, I remember that wikie-thingy, but I read someone said it was "99% shit", or some such... By Jove, though, I think I've finally got it– "iets kleinere fluiten" are "slightly smaller boats [than e.g. two-masted hoekers had]"! Any good...? :'o( [weeps from brain-frying] Nortonius (talk) 16:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Yep, that does seem to be what it says! Don't you just love it when this happens? Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
According to this, Oak weighs around 60% more than pine, by volume. Makes it unlikely that Meermin was 450 tons, and much more likely around the 480 tons. Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:22, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Glad you like the theory about smaller boats! :o) But, for now it's OR...? And yes, oak is a much denser wood than pine, so lots heavier. D'you know what, I think I'm going to be a pest and email Mr Boshoff! Wish me luck– unless you can think of a reason why that might be a bad idea, other than maybe disclosure! Nortonius (talk) 17:39, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
That's a brilliant idea; good luck! Send him a link to the Saga of the Meermin, too; tell him I'm envisioning kids learning it, maybe turning into a narrative play or something. Fun way of learning. Who knows, maybe we can write Meermin – The Musical next! And see if there's any way he can let Wikipedia have a nice CC-BY-SA use of the images for the Meermin's blueprints – that would be cool beyond belief :D He could scan and email them to us. Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:23, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Yes I share your anticipation of incredible coolness! XD I only hope he's up for it... I hadn't thought to mention the saga and your thinking behind it, despite my admiration, does that make me a selfish oaf?!I'll only accept answers to that question from Pesky! No problem, superb in fact! But, that could ultimately mean disclosing who you are IRL to Mr Boshoff at least, as well as who I am, and, once it's out there, who knows? Unless I were forever to be your go-between in this (Banksy? Who he?!), that is, and obviously I can stress in diplomatic terms that confidentiality would be "required"...?

About those bloomin' "whistles", though– I've just spotted that the Dutch quotation from VOCsite above says "zoals de iets kleinere fluiten". That sentence doesn't say that the "larger hoekers also had a foremast and slightly smaller whistles"– it just means that the "larger hoekers also had a fore-mast, as in the slightly smaller fluyts"! Phew, what a palaver– sorry, and thank gawd I noticed that before asking Mr Boshoff! :o) Nortonius (talk) 18:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC) p.s. I'm holding off emailing Mr Boshoff until I'm certain-sure you've seen my comments in the preceding para about potential disclosure, let me know! I've absolutely 0 intention to be patronising here, I know you're a "grown-up" and want me to email– it's just that I really don't want to be responsible for setting this train in motion without an explicit "go", in a re-assuring response to my scaredy-cat reservations about possible outcomes! I could post a "proposed email" in a sandbox if you like, suitably redacted of course...? :o)

I'm perfectly happy for the Saga of the Meermin just to be attributable to "Wikipedian, ThatPeskyCommoner", I'm not after any real-life recognition or anything! It's a nice little boost for Wikipedia down in the Cape - might get a few more readers / editors in from that part of the world. In terms of Jaco B. himself knowing who I am, if he wants to email me, that's OK by me. Now, if we had a Dutch-speaker on board here we could be certain-sure about exactly what the correct translation of that niggly little bit about the "kleinere fluiten" ... I read up several pages about "Dutch Flute Ships", and I think you're right in that it's comparing the Hoeker foremast to the smaller-fluitschippen foremasts, after all. Apparently fluitschippen were favourite vessels amongst pirates ... and no, you're not a selfish oaf, or you wouldn't be playing with the Meermin with me :o) If we can get those blueprints, I'd be dead chuffed. Pesky (talkstalk!) 07:15, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Ta! And, me too! But– blimey, I just clicked 'Send' on that email, whatever next?! ;op Nortonius (talk) 08:28, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Meermin part 4

(If I may!) Pesky, I'm wondering what you might make of this: in Hogerzeil, S. & Richardson, D. (2007), "Slave Purchasing Strategies and Shipboard Mortality: Day-to-Day Evidence from the Dutch African Trade, 1751–1797", The Journal of Economic History, vol. 67, p. 163, n. 7, it says:

[According to] one of the [Dutch Middelburgsche Commercie Compagnie's] captain's logs… 13 [cheques]… had been entrusted to a certain captain Martynus Bruijne Hoogerzeyl of the ship De Meermin, for transport from Paramaribo [now in Suriname, in South America] to Middelburg [capital of Zeeland province, south-west Netherlands. Another log book entry] identified Martynus as captain of De Meermin, arriving in Paramaribo [on 24 February 1765] with 328 slaves from Angola.

A year earlier, surely a different Dutch ship– "De Meermin", not just "Meermin"– and in different places, but what a strange coincidence! Nortonius (talk) 09:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were several "Meermins" – it's the Dutch for "Mermaid". "Our" Meermin was commissioned in 1759; maybe she was sub-contracted for the other job? I know for a certainty that there was at least one other Meermin, at a later date; there was also the 1706 Meerman, and Martynus is likely to be as common a name elsewhere as Martin is in English-speaking countries. Pesky (talkstalk!) 10:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, that's pretty much how I saw it. I'd have thought that two "Meermin"s registered in the Netherlands at the same time might've raised some eyebrows, but for the facts that one was of Middelburg while the other was of Amsterdam, and that they were distinguishable by "De". It could have been the same ship chartered out to the MCC, but I think we'd do well to forget about that, unless a source turns up. Btw, I expect you've seen that I've sent the email, but did you notice PamD's comment above? ;op Nortonius (talk) 10:28, 1 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. I forgot to say that I added the meaning of the ship's name a few days ago! :o)
I'm not sure that putting "De" in front is actually a true reflection on the name of the ship, after all, in England people talk of "the" Ark Royal, when actually the ship is just "Ark Royal", etc. But the Middleburg vs. Amsterdam thing is much more definite, and I've just dredged this up from the VOCsite:

Op 27 januari 1761 voer op haar eerste reis de 'Meermin' uit vanaf Texel. Het schip bereikte op 15 juni daarop Kaap de Goede Hoop. Zij bleef dienst doen aan de Kaap tot 9 april 1766 toen het schip aan de grond liep en verging.
[On January 27, 1761 on her maiden voyage the 'Meermin' departed from Texel. The ship reached the Cape of Good Hope on June 15. She continued service on the Cape until April 9, 1766 when the ship ran aground and sank.]

So that's pretty sure; she never left the Cape service. Shal we set up our own private detective agency after we've written Meermin –The Musical ? ;P

Oooh, and yes, I noticed the "Silence Musem" as well – funnier thing is that our childhood / family nickname for the London Science Museum was also the Silence Museum! Of course it's changed now; they like kids to make a noise and have fun playing with things. Much better! My grandmother's huge mansion flat was five minutes' walk from Kensington Gardens, and my MI5 aunt took us around the museums occasionally. Of course, that was in the sixties ... Pesky (talkstalk!) 11:16, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Yep that makes sense, good that you found that at VOCsite! There was a similar discussion re HMNLS Gelderland nearly three years ago, as a result of which I moved the article, removing the "De". But I found that Dutch ships' names can begin with "De", and Alexander 2007 says much about a slave mutiny on De Zon, while calling "our" ship just plain "Meermin"– and ultimately saying bugger all quite little about the Meermin! :'o( So, I think you're right, there's no doubt about these ships' identities now. (There's tempting fate– bring it on!) Hmm, "Pesky, PI", with MI5 connections! Great minds think alike then, about the Silence Museum! My friend's sister is amazing with words. How about "I d'ofn'st", for "I don't"?! e.g. "I don't know" becomes "I d'ofn'st to know", or just "D'ofn'st"! Yes I remember hushed voices, with only the occasional sound ringing out through the echoing halls, in the '60s and later... Can't believe how long ago that is now. A different world. Sniff. Anyway…! Nortonius (talk) 12:00, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I come from a family whose profession was words; the place was littered with journalists, actors, and other strange people ... not only the MI5 aunt, but also this chappie from SOE was a close family friend (my grandparents often put him up in between his SOE missions, and it was my grandfather who gave him the original journalist "cover" to get into Spain in the Spanish Civil War). We're a damned odd bunch, really! Pesky (talkstalk!) 12:14, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
And more nostalgia ... sniff, sniff ... Pesky (talkstalk!) 12:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Vaccinating stuff! An interesting lot indeed. My dad was a humble vicar, long retired now; but one of his maternal ancestors was a Cromwellian colonel in Ireland,Whisper it who dares! through whom the family once had a seat in county Kildare, where it's still named on the map to this day! Another ancestor who was born there was Admiral John Fish, whose dad was sheriff of Kildare: in 1812, Adm Fish "substituted for Richard Nevill as Tory MPWhat?! for Wexford"! You really wouldn't guess any of that from my family's more recent history, we're a very mundane lot compared to yours, by the sound of it. I've stopped sniffling now. I think. Nortonius (talk) 13:04, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
... my baby bro is officially GOD! (Group Operations Director for a financial company). Beat that! Pesky (talkstalk!) 13:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
No contest! ;op Nortonius (talk) 13:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Even right back in the 50s the Science Museum had a brilliant (by those days standards?!) children's gallery down in the basement, full of buttons to push and handles to turn to see things happening. Not sure if I learned a lot of science, but I grew up with the idea that museums are fun places to visit! PamD 14:00, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes I remember that, it was indeed brilliant! I was very sad to see it'd gone when I took my own son there 15 years or so ago– the replacement seemed very uninteresting to me, and I don't remember my son being impressed with it, either… Nortonius (talk) 14:11, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I like the engines; I've always liked the engines. Now, of course, one goes to the Science Museum and sees one's own old computer, kettle and toaster in there ... Pesky (talkstalk!) 14:28, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Heh, and now I'm feeling inadequate! With mother being particularly unwell and having to be syringe-fed, I haven't had time to do any more background reading for Meermin, or hunting out any more factlets, or anything except the picture. Ho hum. Pesky (talkstalk!) 15:22, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Oh, I'm so sorry, that does sound awful, for both of you… I can imagine your frustration in the meantime– my last experience of being a student was such a trial, owing to RL circumstances, that I then had the only migraines I've ever experienced, though the cause was very different. Well, I bear you in mind while I'm digging stuff up and banging it in– whether or not you'll like it, that sort of thing; and, btw, yes it's time for 2cols! But yes, I'm thinking of you, anyway. Two people I know have spent years of their lives caring for elderly parents. It's no fun for either of you. Nortonius (talk) 16:01, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Mother's sleeping most of the time, so not too stressed out, though she did have a couple of panic attacks (probably brought on by fever). She's better today than she was yesterday, but still completely unable to sit up at all, poor old thing! At least I find the "nursing" bit easier than the dealing-with-aggression bit (she has a kick like a mule when she's cross, and used to have red hair, too ... and she's recently discovered biting as a new technique; I had to laugh, she reminded me so much of one of our "wild" ponies, who does truly evil crocodile impressions whenever you want to give her a wormer ... ) Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:17, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Good to sleep when "particularly unwell" I'd take nursing over being kicked and bitten any day– I now have a strange visual image of a pony with a crocodile's "smile"...! By the way, Prioryman (talk · contribs) has answered the call to  (talk · contribs) for that 18th century image, and I've stuck it in the article! Nortonius (talk) 00:26, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Oh, brilliant! Just taken a look - it's great :D Pesky (talkstalk!) 08:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Ah, glad you like it! :o) I had a go at squeezing a bit more clarity out of the image, but only managed to make the original caption more legible, so I've left it alone– I wonder if it could be done, though...? ;op Also, I've just swapped the map for one wot I made earlier, comparatively a close-up, with locations of– well, you'll see. Any good? The software I used is pre-2003 vintage, so "ATLANTIC OCEAN" is poorly rendered, and I do believe that the Scale has somehow become stretched– I made Stellenbosch to be about 91 miles from Struisbaai, but it looks much less than that via the Scale...(see p.p.s. below!) The whole thing could be cropped to show a suitable area around just the named features, but zooming the map has already made pre-existing elements start to break up. I could fix that, but then there's also the anachronous grey boundary line for the Western Cape province, and that would be beyond me… Otherwise I have my fingers crossed that you think it's ok. TTFN Nortonius (talk) 11:22, 2 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. Heyyyyy! I only just noticed you got rid of those mooring blocks, and did some more cleaning up! Yay! :o) p.p.s I just uploaded another version of said map with a more betterer Scale…

I can "disappear" that grey line; possibly even today. Depends on mother, and things (things?!) like that. Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
I bet you can– in your own time, obv! Actually, I wouldn't mind a bit if you'd rather starting afresh from the map's source, but that isn't a hint– just making sure you know that I wouldn't be the least bit offended. :o) Nortonius (talk) 18:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
I've just uploaded the cleaned-up version; removed border, fined-down the rivers and the coastline (I thoughy they looked a bit "clunky"), and cleaned up a little bit around the text to make it appear less fuzzy. I'll download a copu of that other image, and see what I can do in terms of clean-up on that one, too. And, of course, any time you need an image cleaned up for any other article, do just ask me! Pesky (talkstalk!) 19:29, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Brilliant, and thanks for the offer! You're clearly very adept at this. Btw, I hope you don't mind me doing so much to the Meermin– I've become a bit hoeked hooked by it, and I can imagine anyone finding it a bit irksome to have someone else come along and change so much of their hard work, especially when they have stressful distractions of their own. Do let me know if you think I've messed up at any time… I've been thinking for a while about putting another article up for FA, so maybe I've been whisker-washing a bit in working on the Meermin; but it does mean I can go and interfere somewhere else, if told to! ;op I have become a bit involved with the Meermin, though, it's a tragic but fascinating tale. Nortonius (talk) 20:20, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
To be totally honest, it's been really great having you working on this. It's nice to work with someone on something, especially when I've been wanting it polished up for ages, and have been lacking inspiration, motivation, and energy. I've done more with Meermin since you joined in than I'd done in ages, and it's nice to be feeling creative again. You've done absolutely brilliantly on it; I haven't seen any edit of yours that I'd want to revert (or generally even tweak!). You're very good ;P Pesky (talkstalk!) 20:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Very kind words indeed, Pesky, and very re-assuring, thank you. It is great to have someone to work with, my one and only GAN so far was like that, with Senra (talk · contribs) as reviewer– I found it a very productive, collaborative effort, with Senra picking up on all sorts of things, making very apt suggestions and asking very incisive questions. All round a Good Experience– it fried my brain a bit with one or two things, but much of the hard work was put in by Senra himself, and personally I think the product was well worth the effort. I'm more than glad that you think what I've done is up to scratch; and you, you're a Photoshop wizard! That 18th century image is much gentler on the eye now. Ok then, I'll keep digging for the Meermin– talking of which, I haven't heard back from Mr Boshoff, but I'm sure he's a busy man, with plenty of other things to do besides responding to my pestering email! I have made a similar off-wiki enquiry before though, with charmingly helpful results– fingers crossed! TTFN. Nortonius (talk) 00:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Jaco B. is probably out there in the bay, Meermin-hunting, as we type! It's summer down there, and I know they were hoping to be doing a lot more in terms of locating her by now. They may even have divers out there ... it will be good to get an update from them, if we can. Some good pics, of course, would be even better ;P I'm still racking my brains to try and work out how I got a "back door" into the Alexander 2003 paper!
My motivation took a heck of a knock back in early December, and I very seriously considered quitting the 'pedia altogether. That, combined with a sudden deterioration with the neuro symptoms, has decimated the time / effort I was putting in before, but once I feel both emotionally and physically more able, I may even get back to a bit of reviewing at GAN. I did a couple, which were quite fun, but I'm not likely to review anything until I feel really on the ball again, it's not fair on the article writers not to be able to put one's heart into it. Pesky (talkstalk!) 08:17, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Meermin part 5

Hey, look! I've just found this! I shall read it ... Pesky (talkstalk!) 08:52, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Heheyyy! And lo! you did read it! So, out with the Guest House, and in with the Wayback Machine! Now we really are in the same boat as Reculver, again! I'd decided that the "Transcript" was probably the "best source" we had for "details", and I see that these old pages from Iziko Museums back up that quote from Massavana– now this is the best source? I'll have a look as soon as! And, what a shame Iziko Museums dumped it, with the search for the Meermin ongoing...
Understood about "a heck of a knock"– I was aware something untoward was going on, from what Chzz was up to, but didn't know what it was about in detail. I started to read your subpage, but the link to Soxred93's "Edit Counter" wasn't working, and hadn't been for me for ages, in fact, so I stopped– just now, though, I checked the link and the Edit Counter's working! So, I'll try to have a proper look at "Case History" later. (btw, apparently I haven't "Opted In" to some features, but I haven't seen how to there, is it in my own preferences...?) I had a fairly intense spell with WP back in 2008, which is when I first ran into Chzz, but then quit for about 2½ years because something pissed me off so much– I was particularly fragile at the time, but still it was all just too much to be bothered with.
I'm probably about to get dragged off the computer for a bit IRL– have a look at this too: plans of a VOC hoeker called "Meermin"– I'll happily guess that the name "De Meermin" is the web editor's version, it looks like just "Meermin" in the plan, but sadly the resolution is too bad to be sure! Is it "our" Meermin?! Nortonius (talk) 11:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm finding quite a lot of useful stuff in there; the only challenge I really have is in working out how to get the refs working the same way you have them. If there's a page you can point me to which explains exactly how to do the sort you;re doing, in "strings of refs", kinda thing, style of kidney ... then I can suss that out and get all the stuff working in the same format. I have a named ref <ref name=IzikoArchive/>, but have no idea how that fits in with the style of citations you're doing. Pesky (talkstalk!) 11:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Ooohh! I shall definitely take a look at that thingie, and see what I can make of it (mincemeat, probably, or a pig's ear ...) Chzz is absolutely brilliant; quite one of my favourite people here. He "has his little ways", bless him – but I love his little ways, and can adapt to them. Chzz was one of my hand-picked mentors when I came back to WP after a very long break, after a handful of edits creating the Collin Brooks article. And speaking of Chzz, and pigs' ears .... I left him some quasi-Macbethian sausages. I like them so much, I'm going to put them here, too!
Pan frying sausages.jpg Witches? Really?!
"Ear of sow and gut of boar,

All the stuff which fell on t'floor,
Snout of gilt, and one black rat
Which drowned on falling in the vat,
Butcher's thumb untimely chop'd
And down into the mincer drop'd,
Piglet's hide and youngling's pizzle
In the sausage spit and sizzle.

Pizzle, fizzle, spit and sizzle
Barbie, if it doesn't drizzle!"

Ketchup, anyone?

[exit stage left, cackling]

Pesky (talkstalk!) 11:36, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Hehe! When shall we three meet again, in thunder, lightning, or in rain?! Yes, I think of Chzz as a pal. Another quickie though– damn the resolution on this, ships ?being built in the VOC's yard at Amsterdam, one of them's said to be De Meermin, who knows? We would, but for the *@/~ing resolution! Grrr... About refs, basic idea is:
  • set up "citation" templates like those for The Meermin slave mutiny#Sources– see Template:Citation, but I find myself only using Template:Citation#Books, and adapting it accordingly: different templates produce different results, e.g. full stop at end/no full stop at end, and consistently using one template gets around that; I never use Template:Citation#Web, because, as is, it puts a full stop at the end, and you don't always want it (there's a parameter for this, I'm pretty sure, but I haven't played with it yet)
  • single inline citations in the format {{sfn|Lastname|year|p=}}, with no <ref></ref> tags, link to items in the Bibliography/Sources, as well as creating "Citations" entries with a full stop at the end, e.g. under The Meermin slave mutiny#Citations; multiple, identical citations like this will group automatically as "a b c"; with multiple pages the last parameter is "pp=", or for other things it's e.g. "loc=PlatenonbreakingspaceII, fig.nonbreakingspace2"
  • for bundled citations (more than one ref in the same inline citation), use <ref></ref> tags, and substitute "harvnb" for "sfn"; other elements remain the same, though I tend to put "page=", "pages" etc. instead of "p="– I think "p=" etc. also work, I just can't remember right now; and, of course, using <ref></ref> tags means you can put e.g. online references in the same citation
  • for "explanatory" notes (as you've seen, I call them "Footnotes"), I have only used this template so far: {{#tag:ref|blahblah<ref>citation</ref>|group="nb"}}, or of course {{#tag:ref|blahblah{{sfn|Lastname|year|p=}}|group="nb"}} (though, at Reculver, I've made an executive decision to change "nb" to "Fn", abbreviation for "Footnote", having read this– it's a thought, anyway); this template creates numbered entries as at e.g. The Meermin slave mutiny#Footnotes; if you want to use the same "footnote" more than once, name it as e.g. {{#tag:ref|blahblah<ref>citation</ref>|group="nb"|name=whatever}}
  • Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) has pointed me to Template:Efn, which is a simpler variant of the preceding template, but, instead of numbering entries, this template lists them alphabetically, so obviously you're limited to using it only 26 times, after which you get "aa, bb, cc" etc., which I think is– um– a bit below par? Otherwise it's great; but I haven't used it at The Meermin slave mutiny, or anywhere else (yet!); obviously there's a need for consistency in the "appearance" of footnotes, so we couldn't have some as 1, 2, 3 and others as a, b, c.
Hope that's what you were asking, and I'm not just telling you stuff you already know! (I also hope I've got it all right…!) :o) Nortonius (talk) 14:44, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Eeeeeeeeek! Scrambled brain screams in horror! It will probably take me a whole day to get that lot properly stored in poor brain! Pesky (talkstalk!) 14:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I know the feeling! Templates like this are sooo useful, but eek! What I've done, though, is save the templates I use most (like the ones I've nowikied above) somewhere useful, like in this sandbox, and then just copy & paste into my edit, and adapt accordingly! That helped me a lot, and now I often just type them in as I go– not being smug, just saying how it's become internalised over time...! :o) p.s. Check the diff for this for a couple of relevant tweaks in my preceding comment. Nortonius (talk) 15:16, 3 February 2012 (UTC) p.p.s. It's good to see you racking up article edits! :o)
Heh! Yes, I always put 'em in as I go (with a rare few exceptions). It's so much easier that way. Pesky (talkstalk!) 15:21, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Phew! Well, I dragged out of that super source a heap of extra information; dates, names, places, loadsa stuff :D I still haven't managed to work out, from your info above, how to put a named ref inside a bundled wossnames-thingie; is it possible? Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:49, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
So I see! Really fab. :o) No, you can't put a named ref inside a bundled ref(I think!)– you can easily get multiple, identical bundled refs, though, and you can give a bundled ref a name as normal, by all means; just, not the bits inside it, AFAIK. I'll happily comb that stuff down though, if you like, or you might want the practice…? Btw, I've realised that "quarterdeck" is an area of deck, whether built up or just part of the main deck, so the bit I put about quarterdecks and poop decks into the caption for that 18th century image can go. All a learning experience! :o) Nortonius (talk) 17:07, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I'll let you play with tidying up the refs as necessary, while I take a look at that link you gave me earlier ;P And I always thought that the poop deck was where the ship's cat had its litter box ... Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, just taken a look; that's the later Meermin, not our one. The date on it is 1783. Aha! But that other link - the plans - that's likely to be our girl. Dated 1760. I wonder if they have a hi-res version? Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, it's where the cattain stood to command the ship, at the catheads! lol Ooh, are you working some kind of magic on those images?! I could read some words, but not nearly enough, and my eyes were protesting… I'll fix that image caption if you don't beat me to it, and do some tweaking too, though I have a pal coming over again this eve. Nortonius (talk) 18:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Meermin! Definitely our girl; I haven;t managed to find any higher res than this one (yet). Am I good, though, or what? Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:05, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
And, talking about the cattain, was he the guy on the pirate ship who told them where to stow the kitty? Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:08, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
No, that was the ship's pusser! Groan, soz… I'll have to take your word about the plans being of "our girl"– not that I doubt you, yes you're very good, it's just that I can't make out e.g. "1760"; they'd bloomin' better have a higher res image! Still no word from Mr Boshoff, btw. Nortonius (talk) 18:36, 3 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. I just saw your hugz'n'wolfy-kisses! [looks askance at floor, toes of one foot over the other, hands held behind his back] Thank you! Really chuffed, that's very nice for me to know, and it's one of the nicest things I've been involved with on WP too…
Ship's pusser – how purrfect! If you look here, you'll see it's the same plans. The 1760 date was on the file details here. Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:42, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
Aha! A good thing someone was paying attention! :o) Mind you, something I did look for was a "basket" to buy the thing– fortunately I didn't see one of those either, yet, though I've been known to hang exactly this kind of thing on the wall. I just really want to scratch an itch and see the details in that plan… Oh Mr Boshoff…! Nortonius (talk) 23:25, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
I want the plan at A2 size! And in the highest-possible resolution! Pesky (talkstalk!) 09:55, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────MMMMeeeee tooooooo! Btw, I was about to start fiddling with the Meermin again, but I wonder what you think of this: earlier, there were few Dutch/VOC terms like "Constapelskamer" in the article, and it seemed reasonable to include them, with an explanatory word or two; but now we've got quite a few, and I'm getting a sense that this brings a new degree of ?unavoidable wordiness. This might be a problem if it goes up for FA...? I thought that perhaps these VOC terms could be relegated to footnotes, with only straightforward English in the article, and wikilinks where appropriate; but that would be sort of shifting the problem to the footnotes, rather than fixing it. How about a single explanatory footnote for all VOC terms when we first encounter e.g. "supercargo", or anything striking that might come earlier, in a form something like

n. ^ The sources use 18th century Dutch "Commies" for "supercargo".ref Other such terms are "Constapelskamer" for "gunroom";ref "Scheepsmonkeynuts" for "ship's peanuts";ref etc.

— Hmm?

Then the footnote could be named something like "|name=VOCterms". Any good? Or should I just concentrate on the monkey nuts? Nortonius (talk) 10:49, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a great idea; go for it! Pesky (talkstalk!) 11:20, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Cool, ta! Though, I didn't actually say the obvious thing about naming the footnote (duh), which is that I'm thinking of inserting it wherever we might otherwise have had a Dutch/VOC term, so we get the same footnote used multiple times...? I expect you got that, but I just wanted to be clear! ;op Nortonius (talk) 11:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, of course :o) Pesky (talkstalk!) 11:37, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Meermin part 6

As I said to someone else who asked for help with an article on my talk page, I think it's crucial to get the lead right. I find it to be a bit fragmentary, especially at the beginning, so my question to you is are you happy for me to rewrite or would you prefer me simply to make suggestions as to how you could rewrite? Malleus Fatuorum 23:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

(>**)> megahugzies – you're a darling! Please do rewrite the lead as you see fit! Join in with us to your heart's content here, it's fun :D Pesky (talkstalk!) 06:25, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
ROFL; that nice little bit about the Dutch name for the small ship's boat ...schuit ... that's pronounced "shite". I wonder if it was because they were absolute shites to get moving, or something ... Pesky (talkstalk!) 15:14, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
Heheh! Yes, I rather enjoyed getting that in there! ;op And, yes to any input by Malleus, obv! All knowledgeable, constructive input welcome, indeed! Nortonius (talk) 15:21, 5 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. Any thoughts on Lemurbaby's comments and my responses on the article's talk page? Nortonius (talk) 15:25, 5 February 2012 (UTC) p.p.s. I think both mentions of "Nepthunus/Neptunus" in the article probably do refer to the same ship– but, sources…? Hmm!
I shall go ship-hunting ... Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:00, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, this is interesting. The VOCsite has the only Neptunus of the relevant period as this one, and there is no Nepthunus listed there at all. So if there was one and only one Nept(h)unus in service around the Cape, then it's clearly the same ship. Pesky (talkstalk!) 16:18, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I think that's that then, "Krause was working for the VOC in 1760, and the VOC ship Neptunus that he was on then came to assist the VOC ship Meermin in 1766"– I agree, but are we happy that's not too great a leap to make without a RS saying exactly that…? Just putting the question, personally I'd want to go ahead and bung it in, per the VOCsite. Nortonius (talk) 16:56, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
As there are no other alternatives for a VOC employee to be working on at that time, then I think that has to be OK, per the VOC site. They seem to be pretty good on their ship details. Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:02, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Then, in it goes! Would you like the honour, or shall I? Nortonius (talk) 17:21, 6 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. Good idea to point article talk page readers here, sure you don't mind? We can always carry this on there…?

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────You may have the honours of putting that in! (And don't say I never give you anything ... ;P ) I've dropped a note on the article talk page that there's a load here; actually I'm far more comfortable on my own talk, where I don't have to remember to be "more encyclopaedically formal" and can have a giggle from time to time. They may join us over here, if they wish. But I'll keep an eye on the "proper place", as well. Pesky (talkstalk!) 17:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Your 'umble servant, ma'am…! ;op Yep, good plan, a giggle now and then is very welcome– I meant, "Good idea wot you already had to point article talk page readers here", soz if wot I wrote sounded like a suggestion for something you'd already done! Nortonius (talk) 18:07, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Bear with me, I'm three-parts asleep! Pesky (talkstalk!) 18:56, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm bearing… bear hugz? ;op I know the feeling... Nortonius (talk) 19:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for popping in to say hello

And I found your user page interesting too. Hello...

I agree very much with what you say on Jimbo's page, starting with your observation that Wikipedia is a sort of honey trap for HFA. I've often suspected that too.

At the risk of stating the obvious, Wikipedia is also likely to attract a disproportionate number of editors who, for one reason or another (related maybe to personality, geography, disability, unemployment, age or whatever) are, whether through necessity or choice, a bit erm... socially isolated. You'd have thought we'd be extra predisposed to be considerate to one another. But that's not always so.

Like you, I'm concerned by the tendency for disturbing aggro or insulting behaviour on certain types of WP discussions, such as RfCs. The causes are likely multifactorial, including the opt-in character of RfCs which encourages strong opinions, as well their almost parliamentary support/oppose format which seems to foster polarization. And of course there's the well known issue of talking via a screen rather than face to face. I think your points about the likely distribution of the Wikipedia community across the autism spectrum may be another relevant factor.

My own hunch is that some good input from social psychologist/s could perhaps help make Wikipedia processes, literally, more friendly.

See you around. Best, MistyMorn (talk) 16:24, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

You've floated an interesting idea Pesky, but I'm afraid it falls down with me; I only scored 16 on your test. Malleus Fatuorum 17:49, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
I failed(?!) the test too: 17… But I certainly do recognise aspects of your idea– I'm just not telling the whole world how, at least not until WP is e.g. "more HFA aware"! ;op Nortonius (talk) 18:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
We have all sorts here, but the place really is a honey-trap for HFAs and obsessives. Malleus, I'm surprised! I was guesstimating you'd be over 20 ;P If we can get some really good input from social psychologists as to how to make this kind of team less socially dysfunctional, that's got to help. HFA's can be inordinately irritating to other people, and also inordinately irritated by other people. The interactions are just different; but once find ways of making it work, we're cooking with gas here!
P.S. I'm 35-ish on the test, depending on "when taken"! Pesky (talk) 18:14, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
@Malleus: am I right in thinking you're a teacher, or am I misremembering? If I'm right, have you ever taught Aspies and Auties and HFA's? If you have, then you'll be aware that communication approaches are that bit different (and also aware of the frustration and upsetness and misunderstandings that such people can suffer as a direct result of communication glitches). As you're not "one of us", but an excellent teacher, and are currently being spotlighted as "Teh Evil Malleus", might it help if you just assumed that the people having problems dealing with you could well be somewhere on the autism spectrum (in this environment, more likely to be the case than in real life), and deal with as if they were? Which would mean stripping communication down to completely-impossible-to-misread, and always bearing in mind "this person could be having real trouble understanding me, not through deliberate cussedness or stupidity, just through communication glitches." As in, approach any conflicts from a slightly different paradigm; that could make a huge difference. Pesky (talk) 09:06, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Corollary: if you ever do find yourself having communication trouble with an editor who you suspect may be in the same general area as I am, HFA-wise, if I'm around I'm happy to help out with "interpreting", or whatever. I'm generally pretty patient, and I always try hard to see both sides of any divide. Pesky (talk) 12:04, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Good points here; that guy with the obsession with stallions said right on his web site that he was on the autism spectrum. Only explanation for some of the things I've run across. Now where is that test, again?? Montanabw(talk) 15:58, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
It's here! Obsessiveness is soooooo useful, if you can focus, steer and direct it. See here for my own thoughts on the thing. It's not an obsessive-compulsive disorder, it's a difference in processing, and can be immensely valuable. When I've put together working teams in the past, some of the most amazing dedication, insight and sheer genius has come from HFAs, OCDers, and bipolars. Never write 'em off, get 'em onside! Pesky (talk) 18:23, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I scored a 31. Oops! Montanabw(talk) 02:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

And why am I not surprised?! LOL! Aspie/Autie people often, very often, get on tremendously well with non-human animals. They're just easier to understand and communicate with. They don't say one thing and mean another; they don't have hidden agendas; they neither tell nor believe lies. Pesky (talk) 12:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Know what you mean about animals. Sniff. There must be something wrong with me! ;op Nortonius (talk) 13:34, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
That's a beautiful cat you have on your page. Here's something for you (and all my stalkers). If it doesn't bring tears to the eyes, you've never had a real, unconditionally-loving friend. Pesky (talk) 15:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I can't explain here... But I'm sure I'm not alone in that. Here's to the Rainbow Bridge. [sighs] Nortonius (talk) 20:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Never occurred to me that the aut spectrum would have anything to do with me. Yeah, critters play pretty fair. Except my new kitten... LOL! Montanabw(talk) 23:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I was trying to post here but got into a fatal edit conflict because the discussion had already been closed:

Is looking at the 'literal' meaning, alongside other possible unintended interpretations, useful mainly for ASD people? Or might it be of wider benefit, especially within an 'internet forum' environment that is notoriously poor in audiovisual communication cues? With any official 'wiki-term' or 'wiki-expression' I can envisage two main scenarios: 1) That of a newbie or casual contributor who will likely interpret the term at face value—whatever that may mean to that particular user; 2) That of an experienced contributor who will likely search out the exact wikipedic usage of the expression. In both scenarios, there is a clear rationale for avoiding unintended interpretations. For example, concepts such as not making RfCs "more confrontational" may be meaningless (unless you think the RfC should merely be a formality). To see that, it's important to consider the so-called 'literal' meaning.

2c from a passer by, MistyMorn (talk) 11:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Heh! I got caught there, too! Hadn't twigged that we're all supposed to shut up and crawl back into our corners once judgment has been passed, I expect. You might possibly be interested in this, which I've literally just been working on, and which I started over on the now-closed discussion. I think if we can work out ways of making our communications so that all of us in the Aspie/Autie grey areas can understand them easily, then they should be incredibly easy for everyone else to understnad them, too. Making things clearer rarely results in loss of understanding for anyone. Pesky (talk) 12:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I love ...

... the smell of real, proper, old-fashioned furniture polish. Turpentine'n'beeswax'n'stuff. The K-series Steinway next to me got a whole heap of lovin' today (as did anything else I could play with, with my new toy ... polish-buffer attachment for power drill :D). It glows; it gleams; it does not look like something "born" in 1897. And my grandmother's housekeepr would never recognise the old kitchen chairs ... [yes, Pesky has been obsessive-compulsively doing housework again] Pesky (talk) 18:39, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

You inspire me to do some work on my 60s vintage spinet Yamaha that I've had since childhood -- got any advice for getting a white ring off the bench?? -- short of refinishing, that is? Montanabw(talk) 22:35, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Yup, brass polish. Really. Pesky (talk) 19:47, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
What kind? (We have powdery stuff and cream stuff over here -- ) Brand names probably not identical, but give me a notion of what to look for (I use silver polish a lot, familiar with the basic idea)Montanabw(talk) 02:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
The liquidy ones work best. Pesky (talk) 12:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


Hi Pesky. I'm still going over all the JLAN stuff, trying to work out what the best solution would be - mildly difficult because I know so little about horses! I know a little about pigs though, so I've been following the Large Black saga and much of my thought processes are based on that, along with my wiki-knowledge. Now, I see you mention JLAN in relation to OR, UNDUE or POV information to articles. I haven't seen a lot of evidence of him adding any, though I've seen him complain about the POV, especially American POV. Is this the sort of thing you're talking about? The last thing I want to see here is "silencing of the opposition" WormTT · (talk) 09:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

He's certainly been troublesome (greatly troublesome) in insisting that horses shouldn't (for example) be measured in hands; also in insisting that "the original" breed society for any given breed (in its original country of origin) is the only one whose words should be recognised (in effect); insisting on using the foreign (original) name for horse breeds, as opposed to the English name for them; insisting that breeds which the Italian Government calls "Italian breeds of horse" are therefore Italian (despite, for example, the Haflinger originating in the Tyrol, in Austria); he tends to accuse people using English language sources of being "US centric", despite the fact that, for English Wikipedia, they are definitely to be preferred; and a host of other things. I know one article where he wanted to insert a huge table detailing exactly which grades of crossbreeding produced which grades in the breed registry of the resulting foals (good table, excellent, but far too much weight for the article as a whole), and so on. The editors who've been editing in the same areas with him would be able to give you far more instances, as although I've been watching what's been happening (well, to be honest, because I've seen what's been happening) I've avoided horsey stuff myself for quite a long while now.

One of the other real challenges is that he just often won;t let things go; having done the argument about measurements being in hands, and lost it, he then tried it again in at least one other place (and very possibly more); I think one of them was on an article up for GA or FA. He also started edit-warring on a GA, and then put it up for review saying that it was unstable, when actually the only person making it unstable was really himself. I think he particularly notices articles that are in sensitive places, like GA, FA, TFA, etc., and goes in to work on those ones, without really considering what consensuses have been arrived at in the past about them, and it tends to just derail what has until then been a pretty stable article.

It's a very sad saga, really; I'm not sure how it could be dealt with other than asking him to join one or more other WikiProjects, taking with him the lessons he's (hopefully) learned about how his editing style affects others, and starting with a clean slate and a fresh batch of editors who haven't yet had any problems with him. That may work; on the other hand, it's possible that he may find the same problems elsewhere. I really think that he doesn't know that he comes across as bullying other editors, and heavy-handed. Please ask Dana, Montana, Ealdgyth and others for more specifics; as I say, I'm just off-the-top-of-the-head remembering things I've seen happening, as I've been specifically avoiding stressy areas wherever possible. I hope this info is helpful. Probably going through JLAN's talk page history would give you quite a bit more, from several other editors who've also found him to be heavy-handed. I hope he can find another area within Wikipedia where he'll be happy, and settle well, but I have a nasty feeling that if he stays in WP:EQUINE other editors who have contributed far more, and at extremely high standards, will see no option but to leave Equine, and possibly quit Wikipedia altogether. I wish I could be more hopeful, but I really think he's burned his bridges a bit. Pesky (talk) 14:22, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I've been lurking on this, and what I've found disturbing is how the focus of discussion thus far has switched to an attack on MontanaBW. JLAN can certainly be productive and, I suspect, has much to offer, but his stubbornness and insistence that his position on any issue is THE correct position will always cause him problems.Intothatdarkness (talk) 14:40, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
@Pesky, thanks. That's pretty much what I'd found, I just wanted to see if I had missed anything. I've commented at ANI, with my thoughts and some suggestions. If they don't work, then I guess RfC/U is the only place left. @Intothatdarkness, unfortunately, Montanabw does appear to have been behaving inappropriately, probably because she's reached the end of her tether. I don't see it as an attack on her, just that she is also at fault here. WormTT · (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
WTT, I wasn't referring to you when I mentioned attacks, because I think your responses have been measured and well-considered. There have been others, though, who don't seem to recognize that the ANI wasn't about her. I know some people consider MBW difficult, and perhaps she should have ignored JLAN. But I'm also a bit of a believer in primary fault, to use a made-up term, and I think that the primary fault here still lies with JLAN. It often seems to come down to a choice between ignoring (and thus possibly condoning or enabling) poor behavior, leaving Wikipedia, or taking action. Could MBW have handled it differently? Quite possibly. Would she have been comfortable with that decision or choice? Possibly not. And therein lies the rub.Intothatdarkness (talk) 15:18, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, I appreciate that. I'm more a believer of "it takes two to tango", and de-escalation of issues. I'm not saying that she had to ignore JLAN or leave WP, but there are other avenues of dispute resolution open to her. RfC/U would be the most obvious answer, or taking it to ANI earlier and phrased her comments in a less confrontational manner. That she took matters into her own hands and acted without assuming good faith is a problem, and JLAN's issues do not excuse (though they may explain) that. In fact, things like this happen so often at ANI that we have an essay, WP:BOOMERANG, to remind you that your own actions will be under scrutiny if you take a case to ANI. WormTT · (talk) 15:23, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Montana's tried very hard with him, right from the start, but this has been going on for close-on a year now, and he just hasn't "got the point", anywhere. I'm not surprised she's been losing patience; it would have taken a saint not to. Yes, she can get snitty, but I think, when we've had enough, we can all get snitty. Heck, even I got snitty in December! Thing is, one phrase I do remember from quite early on, when Montana was (I think) telling him something about abiding by policies, and giving him some fresh ideas to work on (though I can't remember the exact circumstances, it was something along the lines of "You have to do X, Y, and Z"), and he responded with a wall of text ending with "Stop giving me orders, I'm not your slave or your dog" (or something very similar). And I think it was when he'd only been editing for a few weeks, too, which is the sort of attitude which is never going to go down well with a very experienced editor who is trying to help a newbie learn the ropes. It's also pretty much impossible to de-escalate with JLAN; he tend to just go on (and on) in the hopes that the other person will give up; if they do, he puts in the edit he wants, no matter how many people have told him why not to, and then gets really savage when he's reverted. I wish he was a happier person; I think I could only count on the fingers of one hand the times I've seen him make a happy post :o( I still want that magic wand! Pesky (talk) 17:38, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Yep. On this one I feel like the kid who got detention for finally punching the bully in the nose after he had been torturing me since the start of school, while the bully cried and cried and told everyone how mean I was. Sure, Jesus wouldn't have punched him in the nose, nor would Buddha. Certainly I should aspire to that level, but let's keep it all in perspective, eh? ;-) Montanabw(talk) 02:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Yes, sadly, that happens when an editor hasn't had interactions with loads and loads of others; most people on the dramah board don't do any homework and just pass snap, knee-jerk, off-the-cuff judgments on what's immediately apparent or has actually been specifically brought to their attention at the time. And an opponent who cherry-picks through a year's-worth of diffs to find all the ones which highlight on;ly one aspect of the case are always going to cause problems. I think all we can do is just take it as read that the vast majority of the dramah-board regulars are going to be less than thorough before declaiming their own wossnames. Having said that, WTT (in my experience) is both thorough and fair to a level beyond that of many others I've met here, and always means well and tries to do his best. But standing up to a bully is never easy, as sometimes the only language they understand is their own. AN/I is a minefield. Pesky (talk) 14:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

No shit. What to do to keep the bullies from winning,anyway? Montanabw(talk) 23:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Insofar as it's possible, educate, educate, educate. Or encourage them to move into another area and let others try and take over the education. We may find that he's learned something from this, and would make a fresh start in a new area and not produce the same behaviour again, despite (possibly) being too proud to say "Mea culpa!" in the one place. Sometimes it's easier to turn over a new leaf in a new area, where you can "prove" that you were never like that, anyway ... With any luck, that may happen, and being nice may become a habit with him, in which case, all good. Otherwise, if he just takes the same behaviour elsewhere, someone from a completely different area may call an RfC/U on him. Actually, I really, really hope that as and when he gets a bit of time and space to sit back and do some deep and hard thinking, he may (internally) accept that he was bullying, even if he never admits it, and he may improve and everyone's lives be happier. That would be the best outcome. I really do feel sorry not only for the people he's bullied, but for him, too. I think it must have been a really painful shock to him when I had to say "Yes, but ..." to him; I'm sure he can;t have been expecting it, and it must have hurt like hell. But it was the only right thing to do. I just wish I could buy him a beer and say , "Yes, but ... you did bad, but it doesn't mean I hate you. It just means I'd like you to be able to do better." I feel bad about hurting him, but the situation had got to the stage where there really was no other way; he wasn't listening to anyone else. Pesky (talk) 05:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I took your name in vain

Here. But as soon as I'd posted I realised that I'd got it arse about face in the edit summary. How I sometimes wish we could edit the edit summaries! Malleus Fatuorum 19:01, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

It's funny, but I make less mistakes in edit summaries than I do in the text, despite having access to the Preview button in the text. Maybe it's because I know I can't go back and fix it later! But yes, it would be nice to be able to edit those.

And heh! what did you think of ArbCom's genius idea that nobody's allowed to contribute to a discussion any more unless their contribution directly improves it? [Pesky ROFLMFAO] It's gonna get very, very quiet around here ... unless we all just ignore ArbCom's "reminder". Pesky (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Here's a little test for you; what do you think I think about it? Malleus Fatuorum 20:15, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
I think that if it had been in an article, you would have re-worded it for clarity ;P I still use the ArbCom Secret Ballet as a trigger-into-giggle-mode technique as and when required. Somehow, one can never see Wikipedia quite the same way, having once visualised the ArbCom Ballet Troupe, kitted out in tutus and skin-tight dancewear, tiptoeing gracefully (or not so) across the stage, arms delicately raised above their heads (you know the pose), with the spotlight on them, and the music echoing up in the flies. If I had a head-shot of every Arb (no, not the in the cross-hairs sort!), I could use my Photoshop magic and produce the required image for the entertainment of others ;P [badass granny mode] Pesky (talk) 18:22, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
To answer the (easy) test, MF thinks that Arbitators did not carefully consider their every proposal and wording thereof (although the drafters tried hard enough to present a coherent proposal, in discussion with other arbitrators, hence the delay and the rapid voting). He also thinks they might be pandering to a view from a section of the community that he disagrees with.
Regarding the "directly improves" reminder, now that the issue has been noticed, you (Pesky) need to make it easy for Arbitrators, by suggesting (indirectly or otherwise) a wording that makes sense and still fits the remedy. Something like "Editors... are... reminded not to engage in talk-page conduct that is not directed towards productive and constructive discourse, and the underpinning goal of improving the encyclopedia." With more effort at good writing than my brief sketch, a reasonable expression of the issue can surely be found. Geometry guy 02:50, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
I have suggested an alternative. There are a couple of other things there which I'm not entirely comfortable with (this is all principle-centred "not entirely happy" stuff, not sides-taking stuff). I need to have some more thinks. Pesky (talk) 07:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


My nearly-23-year-old youngest offspring has just said "I wish I was young again!" Pesky (talk) 18:41, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

LOL! There is a cognitive shift of "oh my god, I'm not a kid any more!" that happens at that age -- I remember a similar mourning process myself. Repeated at 30, 40 and 50... Montanabw(talk) 02:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

A question for you

I was in Asda earlier this evening, and I went through one of their self-service checkouts, which I love. As you may know, your paper change comes out one orifice and your coin change another. I collected my fiver from one orifice but forgot about the other. As I walked away from the checkout the (female) operator shouted to me "Love, have you forgotten your change?" Now, I've seen discussions elsewhere here suggesting that some might be upset by such apparent intimacy, but that's just the way people talk oop north, and I'd have been mortified if she'd been forced to say something like "excuse me sir, but have you forgotten your change?" How on Earth can we begin to define what's civil and what isn't? Malleus Fatuorum 03:19, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

It's so hard. We Wikipedians come from so many and varied backgrounds; even within the UK, as you so succinctly point out here, there are huge differences. And, of course, since each of us is brought up in our own area (both geographical and intellectual / emotional), what we've each been brought up with feels "right" to us. I can understand how the people who've been brought up perceive certain words as "the worst thing ever" really, really believe that that's what they are, and interpret the behaviour of those who've been brought up where that particular word is "no big deal", and something else is "the worst thing ever", as being just ineducated, coarse barbarians, who need to be restrained and educated. Words aren't where it's at, for me. Name-calling, belittling, undermining, demeaning interaction is baaaaad stuff ... and I have to hold you guilty on that one in many cases, but at the same time I can recognise why you do what you do. I understand it; doesn;t mean I whole heartedly approve of it, though. But I can see so much of what you do as being the results of injustice, the results of damage. I've done heaps and heaps of animal-rehab, several species, and I think it helps me to see why things go the way they do. Animals don't have words, but they do have reactions, and they react badly to injustice. It's just wrong. Injustice and inequitable treatment can make people very, very sour; and that comes out. You'd have to be a saint for it not to.
As for the "how", we can try. We can, for example, create, between us, a page of simple "What you really want to say to someone" and "Actually, say this instead, it will cause a lot less hassle!" in a table. People could look up a "better respinse". Of course, then anyone who's been around for a while will learn what the "coded responses" might actually, possibly mean ... but so what? At least they won't always be a translation for the string of expletives one might wish to unleash on someone, and they can carry a presumption of innocence about them. We could give such a page a humour-cloak to wear, and it would amuse some, and still serve a purpose for others. Sometimes I just feel like saying "Oh, ffs, I give up!" when it comes to trying to change wording on policy pages, to make things more absolutely clear; or when I try to put in some small nugget which really should be there (in my own infallible opinion, of course ... ;P) I think one of my biggest ever policy achievements was getting the phrase "People have to be able to check that you didn't just make things up" into the nutshell of WP:V. I never expected it to stick, but it seems to have done so, and it's so abundantly clear that a four-year-old knows what it means. And so does everybody else. Nothing wrong with writing with four-year-old-training clarity, so long as all the rest understand it too. We have a duty to ensure that our policies can be understood by absolutely everybody, not matter what their own little personal glitches are. I don;t think there's a single editor who has no glitches. Shalll I stop waffling now? I am full of morphine this morning, so even more rambly than usual :D Pesky (talk) 09:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Not sure how much our watchlists overlap, but there's an editor (young, UK) who is refusing to look at AfD page etc if it has "that swear word" on it... she's objecting to a link to WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS and will not look at a page with "crap" on it. (IMHO she hasn't the maturity to be editing here on WP among the grownups, and she did seem to claim recently to be not even adolescent yet: a precocious Doctor Who fan.) PamD 10:39, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
It's always possible that she may have personal "issues" with toilet-words; I think the best advice you can give her is just to pretend the word's not there, and replace it in her own mind with something like "rubbish". Some of these very young precocious types are going to end up being the next generation of incredibly-able editors, so if we can nurture them along at all and make the best we can of them, and act as "interpreters" where necessary, it's all to the future good. Maybe suggest to her that she changes the meaning of the word, internally, as if it were a word in a foreign language which doesn't mean quite the same thing as the word does in her own language? I've come across some quite extraordinarily bright youngsters in my time, with whom all one has to do is to get them to "pretend" that something is something different, in order to unlock the door to a whole heap of genius. Worth a try; best of luck! Pesky (talk) 10:46, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
P.S. I'm particularly remembering one who had real problems with dealing with the word "leg" as it applied to humans, but no problem with it as it applied to horses! We just had to be careful to use words like calf, heel, knee, thigh, with her, until she got used to the fact that "leg" wasn't a horror-word. Strange, but true. Never got to the bottom of the why, but it didn't really matter. Pesky (talk) 10:49, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
"Name-calling, belittling, undermining, demeaning interaction is baaaaad stuff ... and I have to hold you guilty on that one in many cases". Can you find even one case where even if true that wasn't a reaction to something equally bad? I've never been one for turning the other cheek, and I never will be. Malleus Fatuorum 22:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't have the energy to go diff-hunting, and I'm sure you've never done so totally unprovoked. I do think that on occasions what you've been provoked by may have been simple stupidity rather than deliberate malice, but ideally if you could choosenot to react that way, no matter what the provocation, it would be better. I know that's really not easy, but think how terribly hard it would be for people to try and find something to persecute you with ;P Pesky (talk) 22:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Self-service checkouts and civility...they are one of the few things on this planet that can make me swear worse than a sailor who has just started his shore leave only to find all the brothels in town have burnt down. I even kicked one once. OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 22:50, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
@ Pesky: perhaps you might be able to understand how pissed off I am with all of the interminable advice I've been offered over the past few months. Malleus Fatuorum 22:55, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
In response to "Can you find even one case where even if true that wasn't a reaction to something equally bad?" I would say no, not really. Maybe some cases where the original slight was perceived rather than intended, but the one thing I've always thought of you is that you're not a bully, if you get me. There's a big difference between being very blunt and belittling someone. The former is tolerable, the latter isn't. That's my opinion, though, and other editors probably don't agree with me on bluntness being tolerable. Every time I try and arrange this civility mess into something coherent in my head, I fail. It's too complicated - people are too complicated. But people have been disagreeing and battling with each other since the beginning of time, why do we magically expect Wikipedia to be different? "Treat it like a workplace" they say. Well, I've seen my fair share of bullying, incivility and name-calling in every workplace I've been in. OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 23:14, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Malleus, I'm sorry, yes, I should have taken a bit of time to think that you must be pretty pissed off with it. At least with me, though, you probably know me well enough to know that I always mean well. I'll do my best to remember not to dish out unwanted advice, but I'm fallible, I may forget! If I do forget, remember that I'm not intentionally trying to piss you off! (Ooops, did I just do it again, or was that OK? I genuinely can't tell, with that one.)

Hey, Ooh Bunnies! Long time no see! You're absolutely right, Malleus isn't a bully, nor is he mean. And I've been having to think how best to handle a situation with someone who really is a bully, though they almost certainly can't see it and almost equally certainly don't intend to be bullying. Polite-language bullying is far worse, in my opinion, than blunt-language non-bullying. Workplaces? Yes, you're right there, too. Some of the shittiest, meanest, nastiest behaviour I've ever encountered has been in workplaces. For the people who say "Treat it like a workplace," when they mean "Be really nice and civil", all I can say is that I envy them their workplaces! Pesky (talk) 06:47, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Advice can be a good thing, but when a lot of it seems to boil down to, "Why don't you just stop acting the way you do?" I imagine it's more disheartening than anything else. I think at Wikipedia we should try and find a way to work with our respected editors however blunt they may be, rather than expect a bunch of completely different human beings to act in a certain way because policy apparently demands it. I dunno. I've been in my pyjamas all day. *yawn* OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 21:54, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Oh man, isn't THAT the truth about advice! Well said! Montanabw(talk) 17:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

"Love, have you forgotten your change?" would be accepted as formal discourse in many parts of the south, where more informal responses might include "Is that yours, my lover?" Geometry guy 00:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, "my lover" is not uncommon. And, of course, the omnipresent "midear" once you go a bit westwards. And, @OohBunnies; you know me, all I ever want to do is try and help, it's just that sometimes I trip over my own feet for not noticing that my "help" isn't always wanted! Pesky (talk) 07:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Speaking as a person who has also kicked a self-service checkout (really good way to FINALLY get a store clerk to come over and untangle the machine's feedback problem, by the way) and someone who often feels that her "help" is not wanted (even when desperately needed), my real point posting here is a funny story of how one of my earlier exposures to people separated by a common language was having an Aussie exchange student offer to come over to my house by declaring, "I'll knock you up soon." You KNOW what that means in the USA? =:-O Luckily she was female, else I would have been mortally offended rather than completely confused... A few years later, a UK exchange student nearly got himself in a world of hurt with his new Montana buddies by stating to the other guys, "I really need a fag..." Oh dearie me... Montanabw(talk) 17:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
The language thing can cause some real classics, can't it?! Pesky (talk) 17:59, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
"I'll knock you up soon" means the same thing here as as it does in the US, although interestingly there used to be people employed as knocker-uppers, who came round to your bedroom window early in the morning and tapped on it with a long stick to wake you up, so you wouldn't be late for your shift at the local factory. Malleus Fatuorum 18:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
In the UK it's also now a reference to getting pregnant? Always? So was this just Aussie slang...? I'd also heard "ring you/ring you up," which was not so confusing as we have no equivalent...? Twain was right (I was 35 years old before I realized a "lorry" was just an ordinary freight-hauling truck, always thought is was something weird) Now, question: Define "Pickup" (In Montana, it's this, not this) Montanabw(talk) 22:31, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
According to the OED it's had that meaning since 1598. In fact a common slang term for a brothel here is a "knocking shop". Malleus Fatuorum 22:45, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
UK English is littered with multiple meanings for words and phrases. I think that's why we've had as much fun with wordplay as we have, since the days of Chaucer and beyond. Shakespeare could hardly bear to let a page go by without some kind of double-entendre on it. And pickup has both meanings, though in terms of the "pick-up line" it's generally hyphenated, whereas the "pickup truck" generally isn't. Oooh, adding: the UK-delight in multiple meanings, which ties in with both "knocking" and "pickup", is that a vehicle used either for engaging in casual *cough* "encounters" can be called both a knocking wagon and a pick-up truck! And the flashy vehicle used to attract the opposite gender (gleaming red Ferrari, etc.) can also be called a pick-up truck ... Pesky (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Fragile - handle with care!

Stupidly fragile today, please bear with me! I had to get other half to go and fetch morphine dose into the bedroom for me and "feed" it to me this morning, as I couldn't even get out of bed to go and get it. Pain level is now tolerable, but morphine-level increases mental fuzziness, so it's likely that I won't express myself perhaps as clearly as usual, even. Pesky (talk) 10:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

(Pats wolfcub) Sorry you felt poorly, Pesky, hope today was a little better. How soon until surgery? You know, chronic stress does come out by attacking our bodies sometimes. I hope that after your surgery clears up the obvious physical stuff that you can get a bit of a break for yourself to heal in spirit as well! Montanabw(talk) 17:47, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
It's been a bit better; just being able to sleep properly while mother was away helped a bit. I still don;t have a firm date for surgery; in January they said probably early February, but dependent on there being beds available, Ho hum. Now it looks as though it will be March at the earliest. I'm hoping that it's sooner rather than later! [wolfcub wags tail, licks hand]. Pesky (talk) 17:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


Hi. Thanks for your kind message and the link to your excellent essay. You're right: experienced editors, with a track record of producing quality content, should be role models of the sort of behavior that makes Wikipedia a more enjoyable experience and a better functioning workspace. I've been coming to see the value in striving for that, though I'm very much still a work in progress. Hearing from someone as thoughtful and nice as you is a real help, and I appreciate it. Regards, DocKino (talk) 12:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome. If you ever want to ask for help with anything, if I can give it, then I will (Real-Life Issues permitting, etc.)
Any time you want to join in the quasi-madness here on my talk, please do. We especially like Freudian slips, typos that give a whole new view of things, awful puns, and so on; the only "rule" here is to walk quietly so as not to alarm the shy woodland creatures who watch the human zoo in operation but don't poke their noses above the bracken! Pesky (talk) 12:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
[scuttles through the bracken] ;op Nortonius (talk) 13:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Anyone able to help someone out? (bot-interest would be handy)

User:Cyberpower678 is incredibly stressed-out at the moment with dealing with toolserver, bots, and so on. It's not anything I know anything about, but if any of my stalkers would like to wander over to Cyberpower's talk page and see if they can offer any help, moral support, anything at all, or would like to learn anything about bot-working as an apprentice, I really think it would be very much appreciated. I think CP feels very alone at the moment, and a friend or two would make an enormous difference. Pesky (talk) 07:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


Imagine a pre-tanks battlefield. Imagine the row of cannons, quiet now, with the gunners all lying on the ground, dead. Imagine a solitary man, breeched, booted and spurred, standing in front of the row of cannon, shading his eyes with his hands and looking around. What is he saying?

"My battery's dead, and I can't find my charger." Pesky (talk) 13:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, I like it! (And took the liberty of fixing tiny typo) PamD 15:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

About Meermin (VOC ship)

Hi Pesky, hope you're ok! Malleus has asked if you have an opinion about Talk:Meermin (VOC ship)/GA1: he says that there's still more in the article about the mutiny than about the ship, though I've done a bit to redress that, and wondered if you might like to comment. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 01:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

New NPP user

I'm seeing a relatively new user, User:Hghyux, start doing NPP today and doing lots of mistakes. I'm not in a position to spend time helping out and Kudpung is on vacation, so I thought I'd bug you. Could you help out or know somebody to help out. Bgwhite (talk) 02:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really able to do that at the moment, I don;t think. I haven't touched npp for a while now, and though I'm Ok dropping nuggets of wisdom here and there, real life constraints mean I can't actually get involved in time-sensitive "conversations" where something might need to be responded to quickly. Have you tried Sp33dyphil? He might be able to help out. Pesky (talk) 09:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
I completely understand. I've got three new editors creating mayhem and I can't/don't want to deal with another. Asking Speedy is a good idea. If they continue, I'll bug him. My favourite is they put a speedy tag on Hostess CupCake. Bgwhite (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Of course, what we really need with this (as with so many other little areas of WikiLand) is for some creative genius to produce an interactive video-tutorial-wossname-game to teach people how to do it. And the np-patroller "permission" (and yes, I think there should be one) is awarded only when they've completed the first three levels of the "game", or whatever. If we could recruit a few people who know WikiRules inside out and backwards, who also know how to create video games, we'd have one heck of an educational system! Pesky (talk) 10:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Aye, and with this discussion apparently dead in the water, we both know WP has (at least for the time being) lost someone who was stunning at helping out with new pages and new editors; lost through, well, ultimately a rather unimaginative, school-playgroundy mentality that pervades WP, IMHO.... :o( Nortonius (talk) 10:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm mulling over how to move that discussion forwards; the problem is, as always, actually getting people to understand the parallels here. I'm not sure how best to keep that moving in a good direction, but I will try, at some point soon. Stupid little spats like this destroy far more than they ever protect. Pesky (talk) 10:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Pesky, in order to push the discussion towards some reasonable conclusion, I think that Chzz needs to be involved. Without their involvement, I really can't see a proper compromise that is acceptable to all parties being produced. Though I suppose that this is a Catch-22 style situation of "Chzz won't return until the issues is resolved, but the issue won't be resolved until Chzz returns". --Mrmatiko (talk) 09:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I didn't know Chzz had left. That is a sad day. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for his help. Long time editor Kumioko also recently left (Long story, partly his fault). I'm speechless on what to say. Another new editor tried doing NPP today. Lets just say the highlight was putting a speedy tag on a footballer who played in the World Cup. Oi vay. Bgwhite (talk) 09:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Mrmatiko, I don't want to presume too much about how Chzz is feeling, in case I've got it completely wrong ... but if it were me, I would be feeling as though I've been told that if I'm nice, I'll be allowed to come back as the lowest of the low, doing unpaid and undervalued work, often carrying several people's share of the work at any one time, to the best of my ability, and only if I can show "proper deference" to overlords that I feel have belittled, humiliated, and totally misunderstood me. And I might be given a sweetie if I don't complain too much. I can't think why anyone would want to drop themselves into servility, having tried to make a point of some kind about cabalism-or-whatever, under the same people and system that they wanted to improve in the first place. I can't think what to compare it to, really. If you're not there, people can't go on and on rubbing your already-sore nose in it, I suppose. But then I'm riddled with pain and morphine, and a bit "down"; all Real Life stuff interfering with my abilities to think and communicate clearly. Pesky (talk) 09:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

[hugz Pesky] I think there's a striking parallel with how things have gone with Malleus lately, but at least Malleus was involved in the decision-making process, however drawn out and arduous it was. Chzz hasn't had that opportunity, and I agree with your assessment of feelings, though we can't know; I also agree with the thoughts on Catch-22 above. On the other hand, I think Chzz would express the problem as one more of principle than feelings: he doesn't want to be involved with a project which he sees as flawed in the ways that he's concerned about, just as Malleus understandably didn't give two hoots about what ArbCom thought, but was prepared to go along with the process. As I understand it, while Chzz has real concerns about the project, he has effectively been denied that process: the open discussion at Wikipedia talk:IRC/wikipedia-en-help doesn't qualify as "process", even when it's called an RfC. So yes, why would Chzz want to be involved any more? Maybe through some process…? The absence of that seems to be key to the whole thing…? Nortonius (talk) 12:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I think that is they key to it. When the only route of appeal is to the same people whose actions you want to appeal against, and that group of people is so small, it can seem as though there is no honourable way out other than just ... out. Imagine if Malleus's only route of appeal and input was to approach the same small handful of admins who have caused him the most angst. Not even twelve "good men and true", let alone a broader arena. No other input, no community input, no way back apart from grovelling with tail-between-the-legs and "being given gracious permission to be servile and put up with it" humiliation. "Of course you can come back as a serf." Pesky (talk) 12:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Exactly. So, what to do? Frankly I know next to 0 about these things. There must be a way… Nortonius (talk) 12:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I think maybe he'd have to feel that he's wanted back, not just "permitted" to come back. Pesky (talk) 13:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Yes, maybe a petition or something?! It's not like there aren't plenty of people who might sign, if they knew of it. It wouldn't change the situation, though, (which I think is) that Chzz feels he can't be involved with WP when he doesn't feel he can honestly point newbies etc. to en-help "on principle". I know only too well how being too principled can mess up people's lives (oh boy), but I think we're agreed that there's a genuine problem here, which needs fixing…? That is strictly a separate issue (I think we all agree on that too? I just wanted to say it explicitly here), but it's what's keeping Chzz away, and until it's fixed…? Thing is, Chzz has been coming up against this problem repeatedly for years (so he says, and I believe him), so it's systemic rather than symptomatic (oo-er posh prose! ;o) ). So, while helping Chzz feel wanted is obviously a Good Thing, I think an actual process is needed…? I haven't a clue where the perceived issue of en-help might go from there, but I've heard that certain influential individuals are inclined to see the same issue that Chzz sees… Nortonius (talk) 13:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Principles are painful things. Sometimes I envy people who just sell out. But, for me at least, betraying my own principles would, long-term, cost me so much more than sticking to them. Never simple, now. And that's the third time I've used that link within about ten minutes! It sums up so much, so well. Pesky (talk) 13:42, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Aye, in my experience principles and wisdom do not always overlap. As Frank Zappa said…

Information is not Knowledge

Knowledge is not Wisdom
Wisdom is not Truth
Truth is not Beauty
Beauty is not Love
Love is not Music
Music is THE BEST

Wisdom is the domain of the Wiz, which is extinct.

Beauty is a French phonetic corruption of a short, cloth, neck ornament, currently in resurgence.
— Frank Zappa, Joe's Garage, Act III
Nortonius (talk) 13:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
(ec) To me it's not a shades of grey or principles issue. It's the "good people can legitimately disagree" thing—people with equally good intentions can have different opinions and priorities on the same issue. It's just as sticky, but hopefully not as depressing.
I think it's probably more productive to work on other things for now—or at least, stop going back and forth on the same points. It seems so senseless that people are growing frustrated through argument (all while trying to be nice because they all respect one another), despite knowing that they probably can't convince the other side. (Great song, by the way. :P Though I'm probably still largely in the "then" stage, heh.) wctaiwan (talk) 14:04, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Aye to that– though, I think "principles" are germane to Chzz's absence from WP. Must be time I had more tea! ;o) Nortonius (talk) 16:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The PumpkinSky/Rlevse situation I have been involved in has many of these elements as well -- it feels like a kangaroo court around here at the moment. Or a Greek Chorus. Or the sheep in Orwell's Animal Farm bleating out rational discourse whenever it goes against a particular faction. Montanabw(talk) 19:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
My own feelings on the place at the moment are pretty well summed-up by the header on this page. Pesky (talk) 19:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
I just wish I could have that magic wand and make everything right. It would be soooo useful! Pesky (talk) 07:17, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Yep, but if you have one and whip it out, in the current climate, it might get you accused of witchcraft! LOL! Montanabw(talk) 04:02, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Suggested pre-emptive strike spell of "tolerance to all forms of benevolent witchcraft" would be in order, then? Pesky (talk) 09:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)


Btw ... just saw the "hugs" post .. "gampa" is always up for grannie hugs. :-) ... — Ched :  ?  22:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

(>**)><(**<) Pesky (talk) 22:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

mmmm-hmmmm .. you betcha. :-) ... OH .. just saw the surgery thing too ... You have my very best wishes, thoughts and prayers with that. All the best, — Ched :  ?  22:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
[Sigh]. I can't wait – though obviously I have to! It would be just so nice not to have tinlges, pins and needles, numbness, achy stuff, burning stuff, cattle-proddy electric shock stuff, and stupid loss of strength and co-ordination in that left arm, which sometimes seems to want just to hang like a lead weight instead of functioning as a limb. And the thinning and weakness and judderiness in the left latissimus dorsi, which makes half my back seem about as useful as a piece of rubber, when I'm tired. It's a bit weird; when I shut my eyes, I can't really tell where most of my left arm even is, in relation to the rest of me! Pesky (talk) 07:21, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Hi Pesky, Hi Ched - well we all need hugs, everyone, and especially to wish well with medical situations, best wishes from me.
Pesky, thanks for dropping by talk:NewbyG. I think, my communication skills, thus my editing, might be improved upon were I to have a little talk with someone of your disposition and insight. You seem always to be wanting to be helpful. But not right now, I am not up to talk-paging, I am going to lay low for a bit and lick my wounds. No brooding though. We will talk, only if it suits you. You could email me if you like, that is rather high -tech stuff for someone of my vintage, but I can read them at leisure, whilst a talk page at the moment seems like being on the Main Street naked. Oh, heck. Bye for now thanks for the kind thoughts. Best wishes with the medical situation, hope it doesn't get too much to put up with. I will wish Ched all the best here too! (My heart op= was in Feb 2008, I am still kicking and still, apparently, causing trouble!) Best NewbyG ( talk) 07:34, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
NewbyG, loadsa Hugz to you. My talk page is somewhat of a sanctuary for an assortment of varied woodland creatures; you're welcome here, and my "rule" is that nobody is allowed to scare the wildlife. It's a kind of Mandatory Truce Zone in here; that's how I like it to be. You may email me if you wish; though I often forget to look at my emails for days on end. I understand about licking wounds, and stuff like that; and my stalkers are generally a sympathetic and helpful lot. A lot of us have the occasional odd kick in our gallop, and many of us are in the Vintage category, too,, with which often comes just a tad more tolerance, patience and insight. Best wishes to you; remember to take good care of yourself, eat properly, drink enough, sleep enough, get plenty of fresh air, and fix any temporary problems! Pesky (talk) 07:47, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

understanding through conflict

Re comment on NYB page. I once worked with a new to the group woman on a tech project where we had separate but overlapping responsibilities. We were both strong willed and particular about how things when done, but always wanted to be seen as professional. Things slowly built up for about a week until we lost it and just started screaming at each other -- at which point we came to the realization I didn't care about her pet peeve things and she didn't care about my pet peeve things so we could (and did) work quite well together. But -- and this is the important part in the context of Wikipedia -- this only achievable after a relationship has been established. Too often wikifolks forget that point and get too informal too quickly, and that just leads to trouble.

PS: updated your link ;) Nobody Ent 19:19, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

That's actually a fairly well-known phenomenon in group dynamics (otherwise I wouldn't know about it). See Group development#Tuckman.27s Stages model. You need to go through forming (everyone is polite--too polite--to each other because they're avoiding conflict and trying to figure out the internal dynamics), storming (conflict as the purpose and hierarchy of the group gets worked out) and norming (where the "rules of engagement" are agreed upon) before you can get to performing. Choess (talk) 00:06, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
So that's why I never fit into a group! I hate conflict ... so the "storming" stage is enough, usually, to make me just quietly walk away! Seriously, though, when I've done group-creation / task-force creation stuff myself, I tend to have some hard-and-fast rules in place before work starts, to make goals clear and let people know that all prior emotional baggage has to be left at the door before work starts. Doesn't make it perfect, but it does help. Pesky (talk) 06:26, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Re Too often wikifolks forget that point and get too informal too quickly, and that just leads to trouble. Yes, another communication issue common to many internet forum environments where participants know they're unlikely to have to engage in real-world relations? Meaning that conflict kicks in straight off before any meaningful working relationship has had time and space to develop. —MistyMorn (talk) 10:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I like to try and take some time to get to understand people I'm likely to encounter often, or to be working alongside. I think there are two ways of being informal; one is the slanging match, no-holds-barred thing; the other is becoming friendly with people and being allowed some informal banter and ice-breaking. I don't see anything wrong with the "friendly-informal" thing happening quickly; the dog which approaches you with ears politely flattened, waggy tail, and doggie smile will only meet with a gross rebuff from dog-haters, whereas the dog which stands looking at you in an uncommitted way deserves some caution in your first interactions with him. If he's uncommitted, he might decide to bite. If our first approach to people is to be committed to friendliness wherever possible (and obviously not in the cases of responding to outright attacks either on ourselves or on the 'pedia), then less friction is more likely to be the result. IMHO. So, informality is OK provided that it's friendly informality.
As a side issue, I'm often somewhat surprised by the apparent number of people who don't understand the distinction between an argument and a blazing row ;P Pesky (talk) 13:12, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Nicely argued, point/s taken, Pesky. I'm just curious about the different ways in which our forum/comment environment can affect or distort communication. The environmental dimension seems to me of relevance to the well-being of Wikipedia and its working community. —MistyMorn (talk) 14:18, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
I think that there's a human tendency in many situations online to assume bad faith, and one has to be maybe overtly friendly to avoid this. A good range of emoticons might help us! I'm sure people get much snappier online than they do in Real Life; after all, if you get snappy with the wrong person in Real Life you could end up on the floor, or with a fist or a broken bottle in your face ... the prospect of actual physical personal risk is a great deterrent to Real-Life gross incivility. Online, people "push the boundaries" more than they'd dare if they were face to face with someone. As far as managing the community goes, we're a pretty big community, these days. We probably have more WikiCountrymen than there were in the whole of (for example) Roman Britain, or pre-conquest America. As with any community, the majority will be good people, with good intentions. But, again as with any community, some will be power-freaks, some will be bullies, some will be downright nasty. If it's possible just to avoid those when you come across them, that's the best thing to do. But ... sometimes you're in the position where you ought to help protect other people from them; that can get tricky. But, with all our various foibles and failings, I think the most important thing for Wikipedians to remember is that other editors are people, too. Editors have feelings. I think sometimes we forget that, and just see words on a screen, without considering mitigating circumstances. And it's funny how there seems to be an expectation for "other editors" to be perfect, all the time. Pesky (talk) 16:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Completely uncalled for remark by Malleus Fatuorum

This remark by Malleus is utterly reprehensible. How can he do this to you? I thought you were his best mate. Bgwhite (talk) 09:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

[gasps] I can't believe that Malleus might be the Brown Bottle!? :o0 lol Surely not. No, that's my best mate! Nortonius (talk) 10:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Having been comprehensively and consistently undermined behind my back by my "alleged-best-mate" at school (possibly explaining why, for a long time, my "best mate" was, in fact, my "only mate"), I try to avoid best-mate-ishness. I don't like "people", but can get attached to individual "persons". Several of them. Even when some of them can't stand each other. Anyone who considers themselves a mate of mine is allowed to be "enemies of my friend", and so on. And anyone bearing free beer is likely to be the best mate of all and sundry so long as the funds permit ;P And I'm rambling, again ... Pesky (talk) 10:45, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Someone said FREE BEER?! :op Nortonius (talk) 12:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Hmmm, I think Pesky is Cidergirl, the Brown Bottle's sidekick. I'm a joker. I saw an opening to make a funny remark on Malleus', um, personality. I understand where you come from Pesky. While I don't have autism, I am physically disabled and it resulted in some very embarrassing moments while growing up. This meant I really never had a best mate and I avoid making friendships in real life. As Anne Shirley would say, I feel we are kindred spirits. Which is why I love reading your writings as they give me insight and calm me down about wiki issues. Bgwhite (talk) 20:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Awwww, hugz! One doesn't have to read Lord of the Flies to realise that school-age children can be the most cruel, savage little brutes on the planet. I'm glad you get some goodness out of my quasi-philosophical ramblings! Pesky (talk) 07:21, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I took your talk page's name in vain...

Thought I'd better let you know– it might've been a bit rash of me, sticking my head up above the bracken like that, but...! Hope you're ok...? Nortonius (talk) 10:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

That's an insightful and solution-focussed post, therefore you get my congratulations for it. Human beings, as a gross generalisation, tend to be either problem-blind, or problem-focussed, and the proportion who are solution-focussed (and I'm talking about real win-win solutions here, not "bury your dead, another one will surely come along some time" solutions) is dishearteningly small. History shows us that some of our real geniuses can be (occasionally) very hard for other folks consistently to get along with. But driving your talent into self-imposed exile because it disagreed mightily with you about something is a sad loss of talent. Sometimes things that are so clear to some of us are completely invisible to others, and I mean literally invisible in that they "just can't see that there's a problem". Problems should be solved, not brushed under the carpet. And it's always, always worth remembering that for every editor who sticks their neck out and says "Yes, but; yes, but" there are probably dozens more who don't have the courage to stick their necks out, and just retreat into their corners. I suspect the little hidden quiet corners of the 'pedia are full of the slightly-injured, who just don't want to engage with anybody, any more. And I also suspect that the numbers of editors who have just quietly walked away from the project altogether, without any dramatic goodbyes or anything else, because of conflict and disenchantment, is very high. Sometimes (often?) people just move on to something else, but as a community we need to look at ways of making our good ones, no matter how outspoken on matters of principle, feel more inclined to stay, feel welcome, and feel wanted. People quietly doing vast amounts of good work are very seldom noticed, and end up feeling undervalued. And I don't think barnstars are the answer.
All our editors are real, live people; they have real, live feelings, and they can get damaged by us. We just don;t see the extent of the damage, because by the time it's got that far, they've gone. Pesky (talk) 10:59, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I think your assessment of "problems with WP" is good. Nortonius (talk) 12:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
Yep Pesky, you nailed it! Montanabw(talk) 19:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Please remember to list at WP:CP

When tagging a page with {{copyvio}} please remember to also list it at WP:CP as described in the instructions in the template. The copyvio at The Evil One (film) has only jsut be dealt with as those that deal with copyvios at WP:CP were unaware of it. A bot would normally automatically list anything that was not listed but this was down for several months and it's best it is not relied upon. Dpmuk (talk) 04:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, Jeeze! I'm sorry! When I was doing npp I patrolled something over 3000 pages in three months; speedsied over 100 G12's, and tagged'n'flagged quite a few others. I'm sure there's probably more than one which slipped through the net on reporting (sometimes I get interrupted by Real Life stuff in the middle of working, and miss out on a step). Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! [Pesky slaps own wrists] Pesky (talk) 07:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Pesky

I think the Skeptic will be fine, he's just a bright example of why wikipedia policy sucks so much. I think I read somewhere that Good faith is not policy, it's just some essay garbage. Result of the lack of policy in that area equates to inevitable lack of wikipedia.

It's also lovely to see how well ANI actually works, where people accuse him of poetry on his userpage. I think it's a valid point, we should all be on the lookout for poetry on userpages. Be vigilant !

Anyhow, I have a read about the HFA stuff, it's interesting. Personally I have a very very different ability for perspectives and a shortcoming. It's an interesting topic you have going. Penyulap talk 10:31, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Calling all poetry vigilantes! Ahem! Pesky (talk) 10:34, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
Will doggerel limericks do?? Montanabw(talk) 19:13, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
There once was a chappie called Hayden
Who took to the fields with a maiden;
Got stung by a nettle
While proving his mettle –
'S a damned silly place to get laid in!

[A Pesky original] Pesky (talk) 21:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I love it :) I'm not too bad at poetry, quality like that would take me all day (at least) I'm afraid. I do wish I had more time for writing. I wish I had more time. I wish I had more time. I wish I had more time, sigh, I don't. I take back my projection about S.o.L. being OK on wiki, he won't, in fact I project he won't be back, (it's a healthy probability). S.o.L. is the second person I have bludgeoned into total silence in the space of a week. The other one I wack-a-moled with agreement, or if my critics can't accept that was the cause, then I choose my natural charm, or at least I prefer to think of it that way, instead of dragon breath or spidersense, because it allows me to assemble sentences like "people are left speechless by my natural charm". I'm afraid that S.o.L. has been silenced, into shyness, by my 'natural charm'. sigh. Should I wish for less charm ? Penyulap talk 06:26, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
He/she may come back; though he/she did express a preference for using one of the other named accounts; Perhaps I should revisit the AN/I archive and find that account's talk page, and cross-post to there just in case he hasn't logged back in to the other one. I he/she is young; I also think that, with the right mentoring, he/she could end up being very good. If they're in the age range I suspect (from their own posts), then it's a horrible age to be, even for the most level-headed of us; riddled with insecurities and low self-esteem. I only have to consider myself at that age to get a handle on the possible feelings involved, particularly if this editor is subject to Real Life bullying. Maybe some Wiki-Parent-Substitutes could help to turn things around here. I think it's worth a try, anyway. Pesky (talk) 08:20, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Check if the blocks have been lifted, I asked for them to be lifted, and he can't use his other accounts if he arrives to find that they are still blocked. Penyulap talk 10:23, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Funny Things, horses!

Hi Pesky, it feels like it's been a while! :o) While I don't want to poke fun at anyone in particular (I live in a glass house! ;op ), I wondered if you might like to consider these [6] [7] for your selection of "Funny Things"! ;o) While I'm here, you may have noticed that I've been fiddling with History of the horse in Britain lately (while I think about avoid thinking about nominating either Meermin slave mutiny or Reculver as an FAC). I hope the horse article's improving, though like everything on WP I ain't finished yet! Hope you're ok. :o) Nortonius (talk) 14:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Hiya! Nice work with the horses :D I'm still hoping to dig up a heap of stuff (eventually) on the history of farriery and history of saddle and harness-making in Britain, to fill in the gaps in the history of the horse here, and possibly also as stand-alone articles (in which case I might be able to notch up another couple of GA's, not that I go in for points-collecting awards or anything, just for fun). Tracking down good sources (and enough of them) to get as thorough a history of these two aspects as I can (ideally getting back into early history) has so far proved to be too daunting a task for me to spend time on. Y'know, procrastination and all that ... never do today what you can put off 'til next month ... heh! I am still busy visualising the Meermin painting; once it's "set", I'll be able to get it onto paper quite quickly, but I have to really see it first, or (from past experience) it will all go wrong. And, me being me, I want to make absolutely sure that the perspective on the ship, viewed from an artistic oblique angle, and with a portward-sloping deck, will be really accurate in representing her dimensions. Hmmm. OCD rules OK. And I'm still trying to "see" where the chopped-off mast is; the current had been setting inshore – maybe they cannibalised it for the fire they built on the shore to warm and feed everyone? Pesky (talk) 16:36, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
The farrier and horse shoe articles need some serious work; I avoided doing much with them solo, as periodically the "barefooters" come in and get all flaky. But if you want to do the heavy lifting, I'll take point on any crap that flows. Teamwork is always a good thing; strength in numbers and all that! Montanabw(talk) 17:15, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
[Pesky looks innocently around, peers at ceiling, whistles nonchalantly ...] Ummm. I'm a kinda barefooter, actually! But I am quite able to restrain my tendencies in articles (finally!) I really ought to dig up some ancient-history stuff from somewhere; maybe the Worshipful Company of Farriers, or something. I wonder if Hereford College has any ancient archives on the history of farriery in Britain? Real Life is leaving me with not a great deal of spare time or energy, but I will certainly keep thinking about it, as a kind of foundational requirement for actually doing anything constructive. :o) Pesky (talk) 17:24, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
lol! Soz about Real Life, tho. [hugz] Glad you like stuff I've done with History of the h. in B.; hope Montanabw likes it too (e.g. linking! ;o) ). Yes I can see that mast burning wonderfully on the beach– I wonder if it might've been tarred or summat for preservation, like railway sleepers; dunno 'bout that, but it could be interesting fire-wise… It might've been too much work to cut that up and burn it though, or maybe not, what with all those carpenters and resourceful burghers around! Nortonius (talk) 17:41, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
All mine are barefoot at the moment too, and are more often than not (I put shoes on one in 2004 for something, I forget why now...) but there is a POV bunch out there who maintain that shoes are NEVER necessary, that horseshoe nails "poison" the horse's blood, and a bunch of other really extreme stuff. Here's an expose on the stuff that I fret about. As long as that crowd stays out of it, I'm happy. Montanabw(talk) 18:56, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
hmmm, Strasser ... There are plenty of others nothing like so extreme. But, as with anything else in this kind of area, there are always going to be the extremists at both ends (horses always / never need to be shod), and getting caught up in the crossfire is never going to be good. I'm never sure whether the horsey area collects more than its fair share of extremists. Consider, for example, Stallion ... ;P Pesky (talk) 19:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
A few years back I was at a judge's training program (which convinced me that it was NOT worth it to get a national card...) and one evening several of us were sitting around swapping war stories (most of us had judged locally and faced our share of divas and upset mommies) when one person said, "you know, is it just me or are most horse people completely crazy?" Present company excluded, of course... ! But I can't see how the horses are to blame. Except that they, for some unfathomable reason, put up with us -- name one other herbivore that does (some people keep rabbits, true, but rabbits don't seem to care if we like them or not...) Montanabw(talk) 22:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Two others: goats and pet cows! Both can form really powerful emotional bonds with their people :o) Actually, doing my usual maybe-overly-analytical thing, I suspect that any herd animal might do the same, because of that social bonding / herd heirarchy thing. Pesky (talk) 07:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
It IS true that goats are underrated! And oxen do a lot of work in the world. But I stoutly maintain that only horses are nuts enough to actually act like they LIKE us! Montanabw(talk) 00:12, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Hi Pesky, how's things? I thought I'd drop by to say I think I've broadly done what I can with History of the horse in Britain, but for sorting out some of the refs, which I think needs doing, and any irresistible tweaks I might spot! Main thing is, I noticed that the section "19th and 20th centuries" currently ends with World War I, and I think filling that gap is a job for someone else– not necessarily you obv, I just mean not me! :o) About refs, one in particular is bothering me: I'm not sure we can use this, it doesn't look like a RS to me, unless anyone knows any better?(nvm, hopefully I've sorted that one now!) There may be others, that's just one I've stopped at for now. Hope you're ok! Nortonius (talk) 19:59, 6 March 2012 (UTC) p.s. Those refs & citations are proving tricky, I'm having to go through them with a fine toothcomb (lol), pretty much one-by-one– also I mentioned a need for more info on British horses in 19th & 20th centuries, add to that horses in Wales & Scotland (esp. Roman & early medieval times), the article feels very Anglo-centric at times; and I've left a few hidden messages saying "ref please!" Just keeping you up to date, fiddling with those refs is keeping me from getting too bored, hope you're feeling a bit better today.

I have quite a lot of work I want to put into that article, including things which you've picked up on. The refs I'd really like to have are the actual Tudor acts-relating-to-horses. I want the original wording, but have had trouble finding it anywhere! I'm sure we can dig up more for the more recent history, as you've pointed out. I thought there was some later stuff ... but I'm probably wrong! I know the Breed Societies stuff is post-war (much of it because of WWI/WWII, with so many animals being drafted for service that some breeds ended up on the point of extinction). Pesky (talk) 12:48, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
For Acts of the Westminster parliament you want Statutes of the Realm, I've had a quick look and have only found them online from Edward VI to James I (1548–1625) here and Charles I to William III (1628–1701) here; so e.g. Henry VIII not covered, but Elizabeth is! The huge (literally) volumes of Statutes of the Realm are a slog to read, but those volumes are all searchable online, except dammit vol.4 part 2, where Google's online PDF seems to be broken– unless that's a temporary glitch. Statutes at Large might also help, but I've not used them before. Then, there's this, a "fully-searchable database of all Acts of Parliament, covering England, Scotland and Wales from medieval times [1235] to the present day": it looks perfect, but it's subscription only, and ominously I can't see any mention of how much! It's aimed at the law industry, so probably ain't cheap, although they offer a free 7-day trial! HTH. :o) Nortonius (talk) 14:50, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
I'll probably poke Ironholds and see if he can get something, if I can;t find the ones I want. Pesky (talk) 16:44, 9 March 2012 (UTC)