Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 February 25

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February 25

Multi-quote syntax

Resolved

 –  (perhaps?)  ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 00:11, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I am attempting to fix the following, which currently is quite awkward:

"I proposed in the boat we should go back" [but] "the women objected" [although] "[t]here was plenty of room for another dozen."

This is taken from testimony from an inquiry in response to questioning. Proper context would be cumbersome; this is a reasonable assemblage which I believe doesn't qualify as WP:Synthesis. Would the following be acceptable, or perhaps paraphrasing would be preferred?

"I proposed in the boat we should go back [but] the women objected [although] [t]here was plenty of room for another dozen." -or:

"I proposed in the boat we should go back ... [but] the women objected ... [although] There was plenty of room for another dozen." -or ... ???

~Suggestions & comments appreciated!  ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 19:35, 24 February 2014 (UTC)  P.s.: the quote is cited to...

• "Testimony of Charles Hendrickson, cont". British Wreck Commissioner's Inquiry : Day 5. Titanic Inquiry Project. Retrieved 2 February 2014.. Questions: 5019, 5029—5034

The basic problem here is that "I proposed in the boat we should go back" is ungrammatical all by itself, and you can't make a grammatical sentence using an ungrammatical component. So I don't see any way of answering this. Looie496 (talk) 20:56, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

• Okay, here is my compromise version. Is the syntax proper, and is it otherwise a satisfactory solution?

...testified that in the boat he had proposed "we should go back" to rescue survivors, but "the women objected" although there was "plenty of room for another dozen".

~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 22:15, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

• I'd make it "...testified that, while in the boat, he...". StuRat (talk) 22:36, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

(ec) It's okay grammatically, but there's an unrelated problem. The guy didn't categorically state "the women objected"'; what he really said was "I think it was the women objected." You've distorted the meaning. Also, why did you write "[t]here" up [t]here? In the transcript, it is simply "there".

P.S. Contrary to what Looie said, you can have ungrammatical quotes in a grammatical sentence. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:44, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Regarding [t]here  – shouldn't that be done when changing from cap in the original quote? Also, should the period be before or after final quote mark? ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 22:57, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

"I proposed in the boat" sounds like you're offering marriage... AnonMoos (talk) 01:07, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Okay, thanks (fixed here?).  ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 20:18, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Is ‘subtract’ strictly mathematical?

Recently, I’ve developed a tendency to use the term ‘subtract’ in casual conversation (which you lot probably consider overly formal regardless). But normally when I see or hear this word, it is used in a mathematic context; for numbers. Is it considered incorrect to use this term outside of maths? --96.40.43.34 (talk) 01:02, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't see why not. Here's a sports example: Baseball executive Branch Rickey once gave an unproductive ballplayer his unconditional release, thus reducing the team's roster by one while theoretically improving the overall quality of the team. As he put it, "It was a case of addition by subtraction." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:32, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Or:  "Simplicity is about subtracting the obvious and adding the meaningful."  —John Maeda    ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 01:51, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

deposit

In China, a patient has to pay a sum of money in advance before he/she can be hospitalized so that his/her treatment fees will be deducted from it. Can it be called "deposit"? Is there any other word or phrase for it? Thank you very much! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.172.250 (talk) 02:40, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

You could also call it 'adding credit to an account'. Matt's talk 07:00, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

A "deposit" or "prepayment" or "retainer" or "copayment" or something like that, resulting in a "credit balance". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:45, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

A bribe? Won't a valid form of ID suffice and the support of law enforcement, or do Chinese hospitals believe their patients will disappear so thoroughly to be untraceable by the law? Astronaut (talk) 14:28, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

In America, a copayment or deposit is often required and is definitely not a "bribe". Is China operating under socialized medicine like England? Or is it more privatized? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:17, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Hebrew translation help

Hi, would anyone be able to translate the text on the diagram at File:IsraelCVFRmag.jpg, which I assume is in Hebrew? 86.151.119.122 (talk) 02:41, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

The vertical line is marked צפון אמתי‎ "true north"; the sloped line is marked צפון מגנטי‎ "magnetic north"; the caption reads: השנוי השנתי הממצע של הנטיה המגנטית היא 0°03′ מזרחה‎ "the average yearly change in the magnetic declination is 0°03′ eastward".

Note that the text includes niqqud, which I have omitted, while keeping the defective spelling. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 03:16, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, is it at all clear to you what the 1°01′ line represents? I was hoping the caption might shed some light, but I don't see that it does ... 86.151.119.122 (talk) 04:16, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

No, sorry. The small line is unlabeled, as you see, and the caption does not help at all—so I suppose I am as confused as you are. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 04:58, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

But: according to the Hebrew Wikipedia articles that use this image, the middle line refers to grid north. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 05:03, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Aha, thank you, that makes sense. 86.176.209.54 (talk) 12:26, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

tumors on his lung lobes

Can I say "There are tumors on his lung lobes?" Or can only "in" be used here? Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.172.250 (talk) 02:53, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

The correct word is in if you mean within. "On" would mean the tumours are on the surface of the lungs. If that is the case, you should say "on the surface". However, the sentence is in any case not a good construction. The lungs are made up of lobes, and only the lobes. So the word "lobes" is redundant. It is better written simply as There are tumours in his lungs. 121.215.41.11 (talk) 03:21, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

on the appointed day

In "I told her to return in four days, and on the appointed day, she came again." I'm not sure if "on the appointed day" here is proper, so Ineed your advice. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.172.250 (talk) 03:08, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

It's grammatical and clear, but a bit formal, so whether or not it is appropriate depends on the context. A less formal expression might be "and she did so", or "and she came as arranged". I can't think of an everyday way of saying it that retains "on the xxx day". --ColinFine (talk) 09:13, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Possibly "..., and when the day came, ...", but you might want to use an alternative to "she came again" to avoid the slightly clunky repetition. MChesterMC (talk) 09:49, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I told her to return in four days, which [or maybe and] she did.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:07, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Her nose tingling, she was on the verge of tears.

"Her nose tingling, she was on the verge of tears." This is a sentence I have written to describe how a woman was moved, but I'm not sure if it's natural, so I want your suggestion. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.172.250 (talk) 03:56, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Language Reference desk is not an appropriate place for soliciting advice about one's own writing style. I suggest you seek a forum for writers and copy editors; may I suggest you subscribe to CE-L (Copyediting List) that's been in existence for over a decade. Either browse the CE-L archives or post your query there. -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:23, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd choose prickling eyes rather than a tingling nose: [1] Bazza (talk) 14:13, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

well-fed on the locals' chickens

In some remote areas of China, the petty officals abuse their power. The locals have to entertain them with chickens. I want to describe their corrupt practice this way: The petty officials are well fed on the locals' chickens. But can the sentence be well understood? Is there any better way of expressing it? I would like to have your idea. Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.229.125 (talk) 09:07, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

When I saw "The locals have to entertain them with chickens", my first mental image was a chorus line of singing and dancing chickens. Are you saying that the locals are forced to provide chicken dinners for the petty officials? Or is there more to it than that? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:43, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

The sentence that the OP actually asked about makes that reasonably clear. —Tamfang (talk) 02:18, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

If the proposed description alludes to foxes stealing farmer's chickens then maybe it will be understood. The sly manner of foxes could fit in well with the underhand practices of corrupt officials, and the vunerable chickens being equivalent to the people's livelyhoods. However, I am less certain about the term "entertain them with chickens". Is that a literal translation of a Chinese saying, because I don't think anybody finds chickens entertaining? Astronaut (talk) 14:25, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

in the early morning & early in the morning

Is there any difference between "in the early morning" and "early in the morning"? Or are they interchangeable? Thank you!

The first one might be a little more poetic. Song: "In the early morning rain...". The second one can be too: "Early in the morning, one of these days..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:40, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

To me, "in the early morning" is more suggestive of something that happens for some duration of the morning rather than something that happens at a certain point. E.g. It rained in the early morning as opposed to he woke up early in the morning.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:12, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

An issue here is that morning has two possible meanings in English. One (technical or formal) meaning is equivalent with a.m., that is any time between midnight and noon. Another (colloquial and more common) meaning of morning is the time between night and midday, or roughly between 4 or 5 a.m. and 11 or 12. In the early morning, emphasizing "early morning", can suggest in the hours between midnight and 6 a.m., whereas early in the morning suggests a time between 4 a.m. and maybe 8 a.m. However, the actual meaning of either phrase would depend on context, and given the right context, the two phrases could be used interchangeably. Marco polo (talk) 18:37, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

We have Gordon Lightfoot enunciating "early morning" and we have Harry Nilsson enunciating "early in the morning". Bus stop (talk) 21:26, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

"Early in the morning, just as day is dawning ...". Nooooo ! Now I have a Postman Pat earworm. Gandalf61 (talk) 11:12, 28 February 2014 (UTC)xx

Thanks to the recent Olympic games, I've got the Russian national anthem running through my head. Try that one and see if it purges the one you have now. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:56, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

a verb for "to smile with one's lips closed without showing his/her teeth"

Is there a verb or verbal phrase for "to smile with one's lips closed without showing his/her teeth" in English? Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.223.39 (talk) 14:55, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes - "smile". I don't know of one specific for teeth [not] showing. Bazza (talk) 15:23, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Maybe "smirk". Though that has some emotional content as well... --Jayron32 15:37, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

You could use the phrase a wan smile or "he or she smiled wanly", though this only means that the smile is weak rather than broad, and does not specifically mean that no teeth are showing. — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:27, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

17th-century portrait: Latin inscription

Portrait of Sir James Whitelocke

Hi, I'm trying to figure out the Latin inscription on this 17th-century portrait of Sir James Whitelocke and its English translation. There is a larger version of the portrait here. Thanks. — SMUconlaw (talk) 16:16, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

"Jacobus Whitlocke miles / unus justiciarum / ad placita coram / ipso rege"

" Vixit annos 61 mensis 6 / dies 24 / Obiit 21 July 1632"

" Nec beneficio, nec metu / Imago posthuma"

"James Whitlocke, knight, one of the justices (...?) before the King himself"

"Lived 61 years, 6 months, 24 days, died 21 July 1632"

"Neither by benefice nor by fear" "posthumous picture"

I'm not sure what "ad placita" means: literally "to pleased things", but it must have some conventional meaning. Perhaps "Justicia ad placita" means a particular kind of justice.

I suspect "nec beneficio, nec metu" means "neither fear nor favour". --ColinFine (talk) 16:36, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

(Later): "Justiciarium ad placita coram (somebody)" clearly is a formula (just google it) but I don't know precisely what it means. --ColinFine (talk) 16:42, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

(And later still): Found it. "ad placita" means "for pleas". --ColinFine (talk) 16:44, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Wonderful! Thanks so much. I updated the file's description page. — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:06, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

"Ad placita" means he was a justice "at pleas", i.e. at the Court of Common Pleas. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:39, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Except that, unless I read the article wrongly, Whitelocke only sat in the Court of King's Bench, Court of Chancery and Star Chamber. I guess the artist could have made a mistake. — SMUconlaw (talk) 11:56, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I should read the rest of the phrase! You're right, it means "at the Court of King's Bench". The whole phrase "ad placita coram ipso rege" literally means "at (the court of) pleas before the king himself". Adam Bishop (talk) 13:54, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

• Is it me, or has Mr. Whitlocke seen too many shrinks? μηδείς (talk) 01:27, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Ha, ha! — SMUconlaw (talk) 08:44, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

He sertainly looks on the tubby side. A sphereical judge perhaps? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.15.129.71 (talk) 15:33, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I suspect in the interest of humour (e.g.) and saving time the painter told a very skinny Whitelocke to stand behind a board and stick his head through the circular opening, then took a photograph. μηδείς (talk) 17:18, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

What is the adjective of someone who speaks a lot and repeatedly about something ('harp on')

I mean that he talks repeatedly and tediously about something. I know that the verb is "harp on", but I don"t know what is the adjective of. As you can understand I'm not English native speaker... Thank you5.28.159.29 (talk) 16:49, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps"persistent" will do, or the adverb "persistently"? -Deborahjay (talk) 17:00, 25 February 2014 (UTC)'

"Gab" can be used as a noun or verb "He was gabbing about boats", or "This gab is boring me". You can even use it as an adjectival noun, "He is a gab" [2]. Related verbs are "prattle" and "chatter", more here [3]. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:21, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Also, please be aware that there are probably better resources for this type of question on writing and English usage. Here are several writing forums that have larger user bases, with (possibly) more experience and patience [4] [5] [6]. Here are a few fora for English as a second language [7] [8] [9]. SemanticMantis (talk) 17:21, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

• Garrulous is the adjective--here are various definitions. Garrulous is formal or literary, so "he ramble/talks too much, won't shut up/goes on and on" are more common phrases in conversation. μηδείς (talk) 17:24, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

One can be said to be "on message". Bus stop (talk) 18:01, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

quotations

Trying to find the person(s) who stated words to the effect of the following:

"Everybody complains about the weather, but nobody does anything about it."

"Better to burn a candle than to sit and curse the darkness." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.81.226.177 (talk) 21:18, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Charles Dudley Warner apparently, for the first one. For future reference, I simply typed your quote into Google BbBrock (talk) 21:45, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

"It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness" is generally attributed to Peter Benenson who founded Amnesty International, and claimed it was a Chinese proverb which was why the symbol of Amnesty was a candle wrapped in barbed wire. I hope our articles contain this information.

I was reading something earlier this week where someone had traced it back further to some woman who wrote "It is better to light a candle for someone than to curse them in their darkness", which then apparently really did become something of a proverb in some area of China before re-emerging in modern form with Peter Benenson, but I unfortunately cannot find any reference to this now, and do not recall where I read it, so take this last part with the largest pinch of salt. 86.157.25.240 (talk) 21:56, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

It was discussed on this very page a few short days ago. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:58, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Not exactly; it was on the Humanities RD. The discussion is here. Deor (talk) 22:03, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh, how strange! Wikipedia pages are usually well-represented on Google. Maybe my fu just failed. 86.157.25.240 (talk) 22:10, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

From the link in that discussion, the supposed Chinese proverb is 与其诅咒黑暗，不如点燃蜡烛. I've never heard of this phrase. Very few Chinese proverbs have this 12-character structure--most are more concise. The phrase seems to be modern colloquial Chinese, not the classical Chinese I would expect from a proverb. Finally, it's less elegant than the English proverb. --Bowlhover (talk) 17:00, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

The belief that one country is superior to another

What's the name for this? I know of analogues in race, gender, and age, but I can't seem to find the word for the belief that one country is better than another. I'm seeing it a lot here, so I know it exists. NealCruco (talk) 23:33, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Nationalism, in a sense; see also: Wiktionary: Nationalism.   ~:71.20.250.51 (talk) 23:51, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Jingoism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:09, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

This was the original 19th-century meaning of Chauvinism... AnonMoos (talk) 01:00, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

American exceptionalism HiLo48 (talk) 00:18, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

How does that explain Britain's superiority complex? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:31, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Rule, Britannia!. HiLo48 (talk) 00:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

As Casanova wrote, "It is a belief shared by all nations, each thinking itself the best. And they are all right." Deor (talk) 00:45, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

But nations don't think. People do. Some citizens no doubt aren't so sure that their country is the greatest. HiLo48 (talk) 02:45, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

• Its called the truth, or there would be no such thing as emigration. The OP probably meant an unjustified such belief, which might be jingoism, which has other synonyms. Or maybe we are supposed to engage in debate. μηδείς (talk) 01:12, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

• I'm confident that the jingoism meaning was intended; the comparison to race, gender, and age sounds like saying "it's just another baseless superiority complex". Nyttend (talk) 01:17, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Medeis and Nyttend, that is exactly what I meant. Thanks for the help, everyone! NealCruco (talk) 04:43, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Ethnocentrism is related. It is more to do with measuring everybody else in terms of your own cultural values though... You don't have to be a nationalist to be ethnocentric, but I would bet that ethnocentrism is usually a huge factor in thinking that your country (whichever it may be) is superior. Falconus^{p t c} 05:06, 1 March 2014 (UTC)