Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles/VGGL

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WP:VG/GL#Non-English games

This guideline set basically says that if the translated title resembles the original Japanese title in anyway, the romaji version of the title should be omitted. This was brought to my attention after Jinnai reverted my edits to the lead of Bishōjo game after I added "Bishōjo gēmu" and "gyarugē" to the lead. Basically, I don't think anyone does this on the project at all and I think it conflicts with the manual of style here. I'll be raising the issue at WT:VG in a bit, as well.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 05:06, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

For reference last time this was discussedJinnai 17:28, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Nothing on that page concerns this discussion. That was concerning a specific romaji spelling. Not when romaji does not need to be included.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 17:53, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
The last time it was brought up, WP:VG basically stated, "Bugger off." They don't give a damn about what WP:MOS-JA says. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 02:57, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
I think its because it feels unnecessary when the item is item is an English word or it uses romaji, but without the special characters. Possibly also the tone taken that MOS-J superceded the VG guideline didn't help.Jinnai 04:19, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
The romaji should be included unless it is exactly identical to the "English" name of the subject. That is why you don't see romaji used on Tokugawa Ieyasu or Bishōjo. It should never be taken into account whether or not the names are similar, because the Japanese language doesn't merely take loanwords from English, and while geemu (game) is most certainly English in origin, teema (theme), buranko (swing), etc. aren't. The romaji is meant for pronunciation purposes, and when you have something like "galge" and don't give the romaji, no one is able to tell that it's read as gyarugee.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 04:44, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
In general, style guidelines with a broader scope are applied first and generally supersede those with a more narrow scope. WP:MOS-JA generally has a much broader scope that project-specific guidelines such as that used by WP:VG. This is the same for any time where guidelines may contradict. For WP:VG to override MOS-JA only on video game articles is not good, and Ryulong gives above some good reasons why. Including the romaji is not going to ruin the video game article, and it will enhance the usefulness of the article. It doesn't detract in any way. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 05:00, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
This does appear to be turning into another "bugger off" situation. Especially because Jinnai has cited a discussion that has nothing to do with this issue at hand, and is merely trying to use it to his advantage due to its length and complexity.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 13:08, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Ninonioe - VG guideline's scope is probably larger than MOS-J as it includes not just video games, but those items releated to them. I would also say that it was never stated clearly why romaji was needed for names for English words during that whole discussion I cited even though it was brought up. The Japanese characters, yes its clear. The romaji, not so much.Jinnai 16:47, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Please learn to spell my name. You didn't even come close, and I know you know how to spell it. (^_^) MOS-JA applies to any Japan-related article, and since any video game that was originally published in Japan is automatically Japan-related, it's covered. There are around 30,000 articles that are tagged as part of the project, and I know there are others which haven't yet been tagged. The romaji is needed because it shows how it's said in Japanese, something not always obvious, even for experts. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 17:45, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Basically, no one from the WT:VG thread is coming here because they're being insular and stubborn.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 12:04, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Also it seems that this is a big racist argument seeing as they refer to it as "English spoken with a bad Japanese accent", considering the fact that Fainaru Fantajī was absent from every single Final Fantasy main series video game page (FFX-2 still had the text from the last time I put it there). This has been rectified. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15].—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 12:14, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Ryulong, please be civil. The VG project is not trying to be racist.
As I stated on the VG page, the romaji seems like overkill. Katakana is intended for Japanese to accommodate foreign words via its regular phonemes. It seems like a technicality to include the Japanese pronunciation for words that are intended to be pronounced in English or any other native language. I'm sure there are exceptions, like those you listed above, but for the most part I think it is unnecessary. (Guyinblack25 talk 18:16, 4 July 2010 (UTC))
It's not only a pronunciation thing but it's a "how are these non English characters read" thing.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:43, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't quite follow what you mean. Can you please elaborate?
Also, I must admit that I'm playing catch up with the discussion, which seems lengthy and fragmented. Is there a collection of links to previous threads? (Guyinblack25 talk 04:04, 5 July 2010 (UTC))
If you have the Kana version, why do you need the Romaji version? If it's almost the same to the international version or English version, then the Kana version is all that's needed, no? (talk) 22:01, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
There are a fair number of people in the world (I dare say "most") who can't read kana, so the romaji assist in those people reading them. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 23:58, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
But "ファイナルファンタジー" is intended to be read as "Final Fantasy". I would think that adding in "Fainaru Fantajii" would cause more confusion. As you said, most people can't read kana. That being the case, why would they know the Japanese syllables associated with the kana to read and pronounce the romaji correctly? (Guyinblack25 talk 14:27, 6 July 2010 (UTC))
"Final Fantasy" what "ファイナルファンタジー" is intended to be read as, as you say. It is not what it is read as. That's where this manual of style comes in.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 14:50, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd consider that splitting hairs as the words are loan words from English. Mind you, I'd consider that a valid argument for exceptions, but not for common words an average reader on an English language site would know.
Regardless, if the reader has no context for Japanese kana, how would they be able to properly read or pronounce the romaji? (Guyinblack25 talk 15:25, 6 July 2010 (UTC))
That's what this manual of style is for.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 16:41, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
You've said that twice, but I don't think I follow. Does {{nihongo}} provide a link to the manual of style as a reference for readers? (Guyinblack25 talk 16:54, 6 July 2010 (UTC))
(editconflict)I agree with Guy. That's trying to split hairs without larger consesus (beyond this page) which ultimately just confuses the reader as they aren't clear which one is corrent to pronouce it as. It doesn't serve much purpose because ファイナルファンタジー is not suppose to be pronounced "Fainaru Fantajii"; it is meant to be pronounced "Final Fantasy" because those are English words. That Japanese vocabulary isn't adapted perfectly to English does not need to be emphasized as anyone pronouncing it "Fainaru Fantajii" when they could pronounce it "Final Fantasy" would just look stupid.

As exceptions to the rule, its a valid argument. One of those might be modern naming schemes for indivisuals. As some broad-all-encompassing statement, no and I don't think it would have much support outside here and the few daughter wikiprojects. The most comprable MOS to this, WP:MOS-ZH is not so rigid. By stating "there are no exceptions" you are trying to elevate (atleast that section) above a guideline to policy because guidelines are suppose to guide, not dictat, with allowances for exceptions. Coming here it seems those here are opposed to any form of exception even when it is a narrow one like English-loan words using katakana.Jinnai 17:02, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

@Guy: Well, it provides a link to Help:Installing Japanese character sets, but the purpose of the template is to A) Show the English name of the subject, B) Show the Japanese name of the subject, and C) show the method by which the Japanese name of the subject is read. You and Jinnai keep saying "but ファイナルファンタジー isn't meant to be pronounced as Fainaru Fantajii" but that's what the Japanese call it in their language, and it is their game.
@Jinnai: Why do you and Guy keep referencing the fact that "the Japanese can't pronounce the English name"? It does not matter if the title is a series of loan words or simply something in English that they decided to write in katakana instead of English. The fact of the matter is that it does not make the article worse to include Fainaru Fantajī Tuerubu in the lead paragraph. Articles on anime whose titles don't differ that much in English and Japanese don't seem to have any sort of problem using the redundant romaji as those at WP:VG feel such content would be. Why should Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy be treated any differently from Dragon Ball or Eureka Seven or One Piece? They shouldn't. It's Japanese text and as a courtesy to our readers we should include the romaji equivalent at all times unless the romaji equivalent is completely identical to the English title. There should not be any leeway to say that "it's not our fault that the Japanese language lacks the phonemes required to say 'Final Fantasy'". Hell, I've even just found that we don't even give the romaji for "Famicom" because of WP:VG's guidelines.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 17:31, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Or for that matter, none of Nintendo's hardware have romaji.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 17:35, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I don't consider "no harm" a strong argument for including something. Regardless, I believe that including it would do some harm by confusing those not familiar with romaji. Since the reader has no context for interpreting the romaji, it's superfluous to them.
Also, can you think of an instance where the Japanese romaji and English alphabet match up exactly? The two languages have different sets of syllables that follow different pronunciation rules. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:52, 6 July 2010 (UTC))
I think this is the problem when it comes to people like Guy and Jinnai who could read the kana: they couldn't understand why the Romaji should be there, citing is as redundant. It's like saying '"ˈpliːsiəsɔər" is unneeded because we know how to pronounce "plesiosaur"'. That's the closest analogy I could come up with, and that's unfortunate. — Blue 17:53, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
I concede that could cloud my judgement, but I am trying to view this from a perspective of someone that cannot read the romaji properly. I believe that "Fainaru Fantajii" can easily be read as "Fein-ar-u Fant-agee" and "Doragon Kuesuto" as "Dora-gon Ku-S-utoh".
Perhaps if I offer a solution to my concern, that will help move this along. The average English reader does not know that Japanese follows a consistent pronunciation system for vowels and what those are, that the Japanese "R" is pronounced as a slurred "R" and "L" (call it what you will, but those familiar with Japanese know what I'm talking about), that there are a few foreign syllables that Japanese doesn't handle well, or that combinations of letters doesn't alter the pronunciation of syllables like they do in English.
If this information was easily provided to them when they read the romaji, then my concern is of no issue to me anymore. As Bluerfn alludes to, a link similar to Wikipedia:IPA for English would be good. However, I'd rather not have readers leave the article they are reading to understand how to reader "Fainaru Fantajii" when "Final Fantasy" is perfectly acceptable. I believe this makes reading the article more difficult than it should be. (Guyinblack25 talk 18:16, 6 July 2010 (UTC))

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Now you're just going insane with this Guy (how someone would go from "Fainaru Fantajii" to "Fein-ar-u Fant-agee" when "Final Fantasy" is a centimeter away). Believing that adding romaji would only confuse the reader is beyond ridiculous. Romaji exists because all non-Latin alphabet text on Wikipedia should have a romanization with it if the direct Romanization is different from the Anglicization. That's why there's such text as Moscow, Beijing, Seoul, etc. Japanese-made video games should not be treated any differently just because a WikiProject exists that finds text like Fainaru Fantajī, Gēmu Bōi, and Doragon Kuesuto redundant when the lay reader probably won't.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I still disagree. I pose a similar question to you then, why would someone need to see "Fainaru Fantajii" at all when "Final Fantasy" already there? I still maintain that the layman does not have the proper context to read the romaji. Knowing how to pronounce an English word using Japanese syllables does not aid the reader in understanding the topic. It simply provides them with a string of characters that they will likely interpret using English language rules.
Also, the city names you mentioned are technically loan words from other languages to English, not English words loaned to Japanese. You have no argument from me about including romaji for words of Japanese or non-English origin. But unless you provide some context for understanding the romaji similar to IPA does, I believe confusion is the likely outcome. (Guyinblack25 talk 19:55, 6 July 2010 (UTC))
"Final Fantasy" is not the text in question here. "ファイナルファンタジー" is. Why should we provide a disservice to the reader to omit the romaji name of the title simply because it was always the Japanese approximation of the English title? Surely this would mean sweeping changes across the project to articles like Dragon Ball, Bleach (manga), Becky (television personality), Kamen Rider Double, Ultraman, Shuchishin, etc. Again, there is nothing about video games that makes them special. And two guidelines, one broadly focused and one made by a sizable WikiProject, should not conflict like this.
And anyway, even if there were to be some sort of change to {{nihongo}} to incorporate a link to any Help: or project based pages, it would have to entail teaching how to read Hepburn romaji which is fairly straight forward, even if it relies on the macron.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:43, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Why? Because the intent of "ファイナルファンタジー" is to be read by the English reader as "Final Fantasy" not "Fainaru Fantajii". As for sweeping changes, you exagerate. The proposal is narrow here-English loan words that use kana. As to sylable usage, the link with {{nihongo}} actually could be updated to link to a more appropriate help topic on Japanese pronunciation.
Finally to an earlier argument, "do no harm" is not a good reason. That reason is touted by people who want to create tons of plot-only or nearly plot-only (with only non-notable coverage) of works and elements. That argument doesn't fly there and it shouldn't fly here. There should be a notable benifit to reader and for having the romaji for English loan words generally doesn't meet that threshold imo.Jinnai 05:08, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
But that is not what "ファイナルファンタジー" says in Japanese. The benefit to adding "Fainaru Fantajī" provides the reader with how the name is read in Japanese, not in English or "English spoken in a thick Japanese accent". I'm not saying "Final Fantasy" should be pronounced as "Fainaru Fantajī". I'm saying "ファイナルファンタジー" is pronounced as "Fainaru Fantajī" (fa-i-na-ru-fa-n-ta-jī) in Japanese, even though it is an approximation of the English words "Final" and "Fantasy". Because not everyone knows how to read Japanese, the romaji should be included because otherwise we are saying that "ファイナルファンタジー" is pronounced as "Final Fantasy", and that is providing a disservice to the reader. We are showing the reader what the name is in Japanese which is done on every article that features Japanese text other than ones on video games that have been subject to this bad guideline at WP:VG/GL.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:22, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Section break 1

(undent) We've had this discussion before, and my opinion is that we provide a disservice to the reader if we ram obscure, useless crap into the first sentence of every article. Tell me, what should the "Final Fantasy" article start with: by defining what it is, or by telling a hypothetical set of users fluent in Hepburn but unable to read katakana how to pronounce if they're pretending to be Japanese? Quite frankly, I think even the katakana are not particularly important and should be shunted out of the way into the infobox. Jpatokal (talk) 11:10, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

It's the freaking title of the game, that's why it's important. That's why we have {{nihongo title}} to save time on typing ''''''''''.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 12:38, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
See, that's the problem: you refuse to see the romaji as useful, instead coming to the discussion calling it "useless crap". It isn't useless, and it serves a very useful purpose by providing the pronunciation of the title for those unfamiliar with kana. Using {{nihongo}} also provides a link for those who can't view the Japanese title so they can install/activate the correct fonts. Including the romaji 1) does no harm, 2) does good by providing the transliteration of the kana, and 3) makes the entry much more complete. Inclusion of the romaji doesn't need to be "notable"; it never has and it never will. Just because it doesn't benefit you doesn't mean it doesn't provide a benefit to others. Without the romaji, the entry is not complete. Excluding it just because you feel like it, or just because you see to have an aversion to romaji of kana, is not a good thing. There has not been a good reason presented to completely ignore MOS-JA here. If an entire project wishes to ignore these guidelines, there needs to be a very, very good reason for doing so. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 13:57, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
While I'm using "Fainaru Fantajii" as an example, I think this issue extends to all romaji. It is presumptuous to think that the average reader will be able to read the romaji as it should be read. A link to provide them that knowledge will alleviate that, and I believe other editor's concerns about it's inclusion.
Is adding such a link an unreasonable request? (Guyinblack25 talk 14:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC))
I don't even know how I landed here. I was just making my first ever post in a discussion page on "Jujutsu", and then I arrived here. This is an interesting discussion. I think, after all, it is how much Wikipedia is willing to offer help to people who comes here to explore knowledge. Including romaji spelling of a Japanese game that uses English words is of course no use to someone who doesn't care. But for someone who wanted to know a bit more about a tiny, far east country just because he/she learned a game title was produced in that country, it really does matter. If the existing romaji spelling wasn't the best way helping out these people, what other way could be more helpful. I always learned that westerners were more apt to find solutions whereas our admins (shame, what a shame) will want to look for reasons not to. You could always shut your doors easily. That's up to you. Honjamaka (talk) 14:50, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
Romaji is useful in many, but not all, cases and I would not want to see it removed entirely. In general i'm for more info to help with translation and, FE, if the code would allow it I think we should have a way for {{nihongo}} to display furigana.
It is with respect to English loanwords that its usefulness often becomes dubious.Jinnai 21:25, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
If the original name is comprised of "English loanwords", why shouldn't romaji of these loanwords be used? Sometimes the pronunciation is drastically different once it becomes a Japanese word.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:51, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
I believe that is a valid argument for exceptions like remote control (リモコン, remocon) or apartment (アパート, apaato). But not for words that are close approximations like final (ファイナル, fainaru). The Romanized spelling differs from the English spelling, but the pronunciations are close enough that the need to know the proper Japanese pronunciation is negligible.
Regardless, without a link to explain Japanese pronunciation rules or some IPA equivalent, the romaji carries the possibility of confusing the layman. As you said, it's not incredibly difficult to learn, but without the tools to learn it I believe readers would be inclined to use English pronunciation rules. Where are we on exploring this addition to {{nihongo}}? I think this would be a valid compromise. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:21, 8 July 2010 (UTC))
It does not matter if the pronunciation is similar or are close approximations. It is still romaji that should be written out. In the handful of cases where the titles are similar (the Final Fantasy games, the Mario games, the Dragon Quest games) it does nothing to benefit the article to omit the text from the lead.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 15:30, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

If you can clone the romaji by just envisioning a japanese person trying to say the English word, then I regard it as totally fake and edit will it out. Simply adding regional dialect doesn't make it something new. Then there is absolutely no reason to leave it in. The article shouldn't be a Hooked On Phonics lesson in the middle of random topics such as a video game. An example (possibly a bad one) that comes to mind to (maybe) illustrate the point: in an anime some people were saying individual characters, very loosely "seh, eeh, gahk", then would say it as a word and pronounce (loosely) "sayigaku". So, which is it? Take out the extra Us, L to R flips, and whatever other common nuance, then you get the original English word. Ok... so why would anyone put this romaji stuff in? Yes, it is just confusing.

Also, I REALLY like the idea of having alternate languages in the infobox. Ridding the starter paragraph of clutter that people can't even read or care about would be awesome. Odokee (talk) 04:23, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

It is not a regional dialect or a Japanese person trying to say the English word, and it is most certainly not fake. It is a standardized method by which to romanize Japanese text which should be required on all articles unless the romaji name is being used as the article title because it is effectively the English name, which is only ever the case with historic Japanese figures or the past two emperors. Nothing you say Odokee is even remotely correct. You may not care about the Japanese text, but other people do, which is why it's included everywhere. There is nothing that makes video games so special that they get to ignore this manual of style by implimenting their own for Japanese text.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 15:15, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
And referring to it as "fake Jap talk" is most certainly inappropriate, Odokee.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 15:22, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Calling it fake was going a bit to far, but yes, it appears to hallmarks of dialect. At the very least, one does not need to know how a Japanese person pronounces an English loanword in most cases (again exceptions can exist). Its the same as a Japanese person not needing to know the way we go about pronouncing their words in most cases.Jinnai 17:42, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Section break 2

After a brief discussion on this topic with User:Ryulong, I have reviewed this thread in its entirety. I think this is a very close issue and there are strong arguments on either side. Coming to this discussion as an unaligned editor (i.e. neither a member of WP:VG or WP:JA), I hope my views will be helpful. I have condensed them into a collapsed frame below since they were a bit lengthy. To give an in-a-word summary: I think the best compromise is to alter the nihongo template to provide an additional note for Hepburn pronunciation (per Guyinblack25's earlier suggestion). I have given an example of such a notation in my solution #2 below. -Thibbs (talk) 18:16, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh and one more thing, I was curious what those that wish to omit the romaji transliterations would favor doing in mixed situations like "Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (ファイアーエムブレム 暁の女神, Faiā Emuburemu: Akatsuki no Megami)" I assume everyone agrees on the idea that 「暁の女神」 should have a romaji transliteration to "Akatsuki no Megami", but I imagine there might be disagreement on what to do with the katakana portion of the name. What does WP:VG prefer? Perhaps "Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn (ファイアーエムブレム 暁の女神, Fire Emblem: Akatsuki no Megami)" is best? I've never known how to deal with these mixed words/phrases properly. Any thoughts? -Thibbs (talk) 18:32, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Third party comment: I agree with Thibbs. Unless consensus has been reached, removal and additions should probably cease. Ryulong in particular has been on a binge of additions despite lack of consensus. It seems counter-intuitive to debate these changes while at the same time making them. DKqwerty (talk) 00:28, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I would support option 2 as proposed by Thibbs, though I think that WP:VG/GL#Non-English games ought to be brought in line with WP:MOS-JA as well so we don't keep running into this issue. They (the two style guides) shouldn't be disagreeing in the first place. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 01:34, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
I support the second proposal as well. Though I recommend a creating a page in the Project namespace. Article space is not meant to be used as a how-to and project pages can include links for IPA pronunciation.
@Thibb's one more things- I would include the romaji if any non-katakana script is used. But I haven't given it any thought about Romanization like "Fire Emblem: Akatsuki no Megami". I'm inclined to agree with that format, but I'm unsure at the moment.
@Nihonjoe- We're allowed to have our own opinions. Some of our best consensuses have come from disagreements. They aren't fun to deal with, but we're better off because of them. (Guyinblack25 talk 02:26, 11 July 2010 (UTC))
I never said you weren't entitled to your own opinions. I've never said that anywhere on Wikipedia about anything. I'm not sure how you read that into anything I've written. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 03:20, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps it's my misinterpretation then. However, I can't help but feel that the opinions expressed by VG project members have not been welcome. I apologize if that assumption is incorrect. (Guyinblack25 talk 04:06, 11 July 2010 (UTC))
I've clarified my comment. I was referring to the two style guides, not to members of the VG project. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:13, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
The second option is good, but rather than creating millions of links to Hepburn romanization, a link to a new Help: page or some project page would be better. Also, Putting "Fire Emblem: Akatsuki no Megami" in the third {{nihongo}} parameter should not be done, as it's pretty clear from all of the discussion here that it should be "Faiā Emuburemu" there. The third parameter should be entirely romaji. Not some mix of English (or whatever other originating languages) and Romaji. And Guyinblack, this would never have been an issue if a video game only guideline conflicted with the guideline for the entirety of the Japanese language and its use on the English Wikipedia. No article on anime, television, music, etc. does what WP:VG does. This should be an issue of conformity as well as benefiting the reader.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:54, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Ryulong- Editors and guidelines are allowed to disagree. So long as we try to reconcile those differences. I will leave it at that as I have no desire to rekindle a polarized discussion. (Guyinblack25 talk 04:06, 11 July 2010 (UTC))
Yes, I know editors and guidelines are allowed to disagree (I have voiced my issues with this MOS and some others in the past), but two guidelines should not contradict each other.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:14, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Also, back on topic to the proposal, I believe that adding [[Japanese language|Japanese]]: and [[Hepburn romanization|Romāji]]: to the {{nihongo}} family templates might be useful. This is how {{zh}} works, even though Chinese has more systems.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:18, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
I would oppose this as that would be even more intrusive. There needs to be a balance here, and that goes too far the other way. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 07:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
If the second solution is adopted, I am also in favour of something like "elevator (Japanese: エレベーター; Hepburn: erebētā)" instead of "elevator (エレベーター? erebētā?)". Fully spelled notations are a bit longer but they are much less confusing than those tiny question marks that you have to highlight to see where they link to. The first time I browsed Wikipedia I didn't even realize those were question marks. They are so small that the dot of the character usually blends with the stroke (when the nihongo template is actually used, not in this example). We here are all used to seeing Japanese characters, but how does a layman knows it's Japanese if they see "?" instead of "Japanese". ALL other languages on Wikipedia follow the "Language:" format (example: 4x4 Hummer, Chiang Kai-shek, Ragnarok Online, Gandhi, etc.). There is nothing special about Japanese that warrants a different treatment IMO. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 07:27, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Although I understand that Thibbs's second proposal is a good compromise choice, I'm not sure if it's really the best option. I readily admit the fact that I am not well versed in Japanese pronunciations and culture, and so when a title like Fainaru Fantajii comes in front of me, I usually want to see why that title's different from the English one only to find that it's just a borrowed term from English and that it's pronounced in the same way. I understand that I might be opening a firestorm of criticism against me for this statement but I feel that I'm probably representative of most English readers who don't understand what the romaji title might represent. I feel that titles with Romaji that are redundant to the English title really don't need to be included in the article as they will just serve to confuse readers. So before we decide on a choice, I'd like to make sure that we're all taking the same steps forward and not moving into a decision without being fully sure of the result: I want to be sure that this help page will be clear in explaining romaji, and I want to be sure that adding redundant Japanese titles that borrow from English is really necessary. Right now, I'm not fully convinced that they are. Nomader (Talk) 05:49, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

By your argument, we should not bother to include "ファイナルファンタジー" either, because it is merely a redundant Japanese title of the English title we have already. Again, there is nothing that makes anything about video games unique such that they should ignore this particular manual of style. The only time any romaji would be redundant would be if it was identical to the English parameter, which is why we don't have Naruto (NARUTO—ナルト—, Naruto) at Naruto or Kiseki (奇跡, Kiseki) at Kiseki (Kumi Koda song).—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:10, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
I feel that "ファイナルファンタジー" should be included when the video game was originally released in Japanese. I think it signifies to the reader that it was originally a Japanese release. However, I don't think the romaji needs to be included if the Japanese title is literally supposed to be copying the English title's pronunciation. I understand your point, that you feel people may not understand what the katakana is saying; but if you list the romaji translation which is just trying to copy the English title, I'm afraid people will just get confused. Nomader (Talk) 16:03, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
But then why do you think Fainaru Fantajī should be excluded, when it is what the game is called in Japan when they talk to each other about it and write about it in the media? It's not copying the English title's pronunciation. It's the Japanese title's pronunciation. The only way we can clarify it is if we modify the nihongo templates and provide links to "Japanese language" and "Hepburn romanization". This way, much like the Chinese and Korean languages are treated, we will clearly show what the text is and there should not be any confusion and we give the reader all of the information necessary on understanding the language. There should be no reason to omit anything just because one project believes that romaji of waseieigo is redundant.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 16:19, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
What people write and talk about in Japan in their own language is not the concern of the English language Wikipedia. Japanese might have commonplace, established loan words such as those for coffee or apartment but an off-the-cuff mangling such as "ファイナルファンタジー" is no more Japanese than "Nihongo" is English. It's a katakana transliteration of an essentially English title. Including the katakana is useless, transliterating a transliteration back into Roman script even more so. bridies (talk) 16:53, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
It is still Japanese text and there is really no reason to not include the Romanized name just because it is similar (and not identical) to the Anglicized name. It is only redundant if it is identical.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 17:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
I think one argument that could be made in favour of the "Fainaru Fantajī" exclusion is that while "FINAL FANTASY" does appear in the Japanese logos, "Fainaru Fantajī" doesn't. Only "FINAL FANTASY" (in big) and "ファイナルファンタジー" do.[16] This suggests that even the Japanese are supposed to be pronouncing the name as "Final Fantasy". Megata Sanshiro (talk) 17:11, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
That's somewhat of an example of Furigana. The smaller katakana is explaining to the Japanese citizen who cannot read English how "FINAL FANTASY" should be read in their language. Of course, the Japanese solely use the katakana in their media for the whole, and the ENGLISH names for the individual titles.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 17:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
It's an example of an English title with a katakana transliteration underneath and further evidence that the "Japanese" text is redundant and that the verifiability concerns put forth cannot be dismissed. bridies (talk) 17:23, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
And consider this: if this hypothetical Japanese person cannot understand "Final Fantasy" they cannot understand (the meaning of) "ファイナルファンタジー". All he's gained is a transliteration and approximate pronunciation in a phonology he understands. What does that say about the argument that it is a Japanese language title? bridies (talk) 17:31, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
The page title still uses the katakana as do the Japanese media. The Japanese Wikipedia exclusively uses the katakana title for their page titles when they could use the English alphabet titles and merely do as you have been talking about. They don't for a reason. And we should use the katakana for that same reason.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 17:34, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
The reason is that they are a Japanese encyclopedia, and as such, their article titles should be in Japanese unless no katakana title exists. We are an English encyclopedia-- as such, I have to agree with Bridies in that the romaji really isn't necessary in titles which are just approximations of English pronunciations. Nomader (Talk) 17:37, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Again, how Japanese language media or Wikis handle such issues as English and/or transliterations has no bearing on our practice. At the risk or repeating myself: all you're saying is that they transliterate the English into katakana, which is absolutely no reason for us to include those transliterations, let alone transliterate them back into Roman script. bridies (talk) 17:50, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
It should at least be how this Wiki treats Japanese text. They don't transliterate the English into katakana. They use the katakana title that the developers use. Why shouldn't we provide the romaji for that name? Just because it resembles the English title? That really makes no sense.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:21, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
They do not need romaji because the katakana is a transliteration in and of itself.Jinnai 19:29, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Since Guyinblack asked for further opinions on the WP:VG talk page, I'll state for the record that I support option 1 and oppose option 2, largely for reasons already given. It is redundant information and contrary to what Ryulong said on the WP:VG talk page, filling up the very first line of an article with redundant information is harmful. I also think the lack of verifiability is a concern to at least some extent, as mentioned below and by Dave Fuchs on the WP:VG talk page. I watch over ABA Games and I remember people edit warring over transliterations without it ever being established whether the developer was even referred to by anything other than the purely Roman "ABA Games". bridies (talk) 08:53, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

We discussed this matter to death before. Though I warned people, consensus was heading in the direction of decisions on a case-by-case basis. Prime Blue (talk) 22:29, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Answering to this deleted question, if you look up general Japanese dictionaries, you can find "ファイナル", "ファンタジー", and "イレブン". See [17], [18], and [19]. And one of my paper dictionaries, the 5th ed. of Kojien has them all. They are well-used loan words in ja. And Japanese people pronounce fantasy as fanta-G, not fanta-C. Oda Mari (talk) 06:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
I checked myself, hence the revert. イレブン, srsly. bridies (talk) 10:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

So where are we on this? How does everyone feel about the "elevator (Japanese: エレベーター; Hepburn: erebētā)" format? My only concern with it is that the wikilinks go to articles rather than how-to-guides. What about Help:Installing Japanese character sets and something similar to Wikipedia:IPA for Japanese? (Guyinblack25 talk 16:16, 14 July 2010 (UTC))

That's how other language templates are treated.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Do you mean the links to articles? (Guyinblack25 talk 19:45, 14 July 2010 (UTC))
Well, perhaps a link to the installation thing should be retained, but teh other language templates just link to the language's article. Template:Zh links to Pinyin, Chinese language, etc.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:58, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree with making it consistent with the other language templates. As I said above, we write "Russian:" before Russian titles or names, "Korean:" before Korean titles or names, etc. So there is no reason not to put "Japanese:" before Japanese stuff. I have no preference for where the links should go but I think we should keep them consistent throughout all language templates. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 09:24, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't think the article links provide the best way for readers to interpret what they are reading in any foreign language. Providing them with romaji was a large chunk of this lengthy discussion. But what good is it if the layman doesn't properly interpret it? (Guyinblack25 talk 14:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC))
That is still the general practice for other languages. The Chinese template shows links to the various Chinese romanization schemes. The Japanese one should show the main scheme used on the English Wikipedia in the article space, rather than to some help page or project page. The installation fix should still be in there somewhere, but a link to Hepburn romanization should be used in some format.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:49, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
That part makes sense for Japanese words. However those templates and guidelines do not bother with English words because no one needs to know how to pronounce an English word in a non-English language in most cases. There are exceptions, but that's it.Jinnai 02:21, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
That is because the Japanese are the primary culture that does not use an offshoot of the Roman alphabet and has a shitload of loanwoards since the Meiji period and they are pretty much the only video game developer in the Eastern world. Don't blame history for an excuse not to include Fainaru Fantajī, Doragon Kuesuto, Zeruda no Densetsu, or Gēmu Bōi.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:00, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Don't know where that "blame history" part came from, but it doesn't get around the fact that you seem to be making the case that pronuciation is the key concern with having romaji which means loanwords do not need that; we don't worry about loanwords for any other language in which they are used with rare exceptions. Japan isn't more special than any other language. No one needs to know, in most cases, how to pronounce an English loan word in Japanese because the bottom line is that its a Japanese appropriation because on their language and vocal structure to mimic as closely as possible the English pronunciation.Jinnai 05:01, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Like Jinnai said I doubt this is even relevant but how do you justify a statement such as "the Japanese are the primary culture that does not use an offshoot of the Roman alphabet"? Or do you just mean the main language that has both a non-Roman writing system and a lot of loan words? And though most may not be well known in the West, video games are developed all over Asia. bridies (talk) 10:10, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
The Japanese use their own writing system and have incorporated a lot of foreign words in their vocabulary since they began international interactions. Just because a word is a cognate does not mean we should not treat it as a word within that language being described. And also, the only other major nation that contributes to the video game industry in Asia that would even be vaguely important is South Korea. Japan isn't any more special than any other language no more than the topic of video games is to any other topic on Wikipedia. Why should the video games project have a special qualifier that states that certain romanizations should be ignored because words are loan words or cognates when no other project that works extensively with Japanese does?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 12:46, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
How does that make the Japanese "the primary culture" with a non-Roman writing system? Loads of languages have "their own" writing systems and loads of them have incorporated foreign words. On the contrary, countries out with Korea and Japan have significant domestic video game industries and Korea's output of MMOs is certainly beyond "vague" importance. Unless by "video game industry" you mean "the video game industry as it impacts on your average Westerner". But what you said was that Japan is the only video game producer in "the Eastern world" (whatever that is). bridies (talk) 13:32, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Ignoring the "primary culture" side-track, a point was made here I agree with. Video games aren't special. There is nothing intrinsic about video games that requires them to have a different titling format from other works (unless there is something I'm not aware of?). Some of the arguments being made against and for loanword Romaji really apply to all works published in Japan with loanwords, irrespective of genre. The argument shouldn't really be about whether video games should get their own exception, but whether or not the Japan MoS itself needs to be changed in how it deals with loanwords. Whatever the outcome, the rules for video games need to be the same as the rules for how we treat other titles using loanwords. A decision on loan words should be made across all Japanese titles, not only those for video games. Change it, keep it, whatever - but at least make it consistent across the project.
-- Joren (talk) 14:07, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────The more I try to explain myself, the more questions arise. So here are my points:

  • Japan and its language are the crux of this issue
  • There is no reason to not treat cognates/loan words as Japanese words
  • No topic deserves special treatment
  • No language deserves special treatment
  • It provides a disservice to the reader of any article to omit neutral and verifiable information, merely because one group believes it is redundant.

There.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 13:55, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

If you thought it was pertinent to make those nonsensical arguments about "primary culture", "history" and whatever else you should be able to defend them. You seemed to ignore my question, hence I repeated it. With regards to your latter points, this has been covered. It is a disservice to the reader of an article to fill the very first line of that article with redundant "information". Your arguments about "special treatment" are equally feeble: we don't uniformly enforce useless "rules" on the basis of a dubiously claimed fait accompli, when that rule is mere style guideline with a clear lack of consensus. bridies (talk) 14:08, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Japan is the primary producer of video games in nations where the language is not written as I am writing right now. And the history part is because Japan has taken on new words since it began international relations. Saying "ファイナルファンタジー" is English is not correct. It may have been English, but it is not English in the context it is beign used in. It is not a disservice to provide as much information possible anywhere. The only group that believes such content is redundant is WP:VG. And "special treatment" is exactly what WP:VG/GL does for video games with Japanese titles. As Joren touches upon, if a consensus is formed here, it should not only affect Japanese video games. It should affect Japanese music, Japanese film, Japanese television, Japanese literature, etc. Right now, WP:VG has their own special ruleset for Japanese text that is in conflict with how the rest of the project treats it.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 14:15, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't dispute that first point, but again it's nothing like what you originally said. It is a disservice if that information is not information but redundant clutter, but I've repeated that enough already. I had to stand corrected on that particular instance of Final Fantasy (though it is still redundant for the separate reason that the primary source has "FINAL FANTASY" in plain English splashed across it) but still katakana does not automatically equate to Japanese. You may see the above comment for your redundant "special treatment" arguments though I would guess that WP:VG is probably disproportionately more prolific than any other relevant part of the project you care to point at. bridies (talk) 14:29, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm trying to explain what I intended. And katakana is Japanese. And there is nothing to say that video games should be treated differently just because "WP:VG is probably disproportionately more prolific".—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 15:17, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
If you are to claim that what project X or Y does has any bearing on anything, then the relative profiles of those projects must be a concern. But in any case, as I said, the reason your "special treatment" comments are no kind of argument is that we don't uniformly enforce useless "rules" on the basis of a dubiously claimed fait accompli, when that rule is mere style guideline with a clear lack of consensus. bridies (talk) 15:31, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
No reason has been given as to why video games can ignore the general practice of treating Japanese text like the rest of the project does. Having an entire WikiProject ignore this guideline is jarring when it is the only one. It's better to have uniformity than be different for the sake of thinking your method is better.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 15:34, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Policy?. Again, you're making a false claim of consensus and fait accompli and I'm content to let all the above arguments speak for themselves. bridies (talk) 15:44, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
In the interests of improving Wikipedia, it would be better to have a common format so that the reader can have a consistent experience reading titles of Japanese works, and can know what to expect and what reading is what. It's jarring to the reader when different articles use different standards and the reader is left wondering what came from where and what its significance is. At least with the nihongo templates, it is clear what is translated, what is Romaji, and what is source language. It provides a uniformity that aids reader comprehension and, therefore, improves Wikipedia. Having loan words for some projects but not others breaks that familiar format that readers of Japan-related topics have come to expect and understand. If you wish to argue for a change in the guideline for Wikipedia as a whole, great, but IAR is meant to improve Wikipedia, not clobber it into little pieces. Ignoring all rules is a double-edged sword that can just as easily be invoked against VG's rules as against Japan:MOS's, and should be done with great care for the common interest of all Wikipedians, not just those belonging to a particular media project. If we're gonna talk about loan words, let's talk about it across Japan-related articles as a whole.-- Joren (talk) 16:19, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
You haven't understood why I invoked IAR. I'm not saying we shouldn't have a uniform general practice, but that if there were such a general practice, exceptions may always be made if there is a good argument for doing so (such as Final Fantasy having a plain English title on the box, or whatever). And secondly that pointing to existing style guidelines which do not have consensus (yes, be they at WP:VG, MOS:JAPAN or wherever) is not a valid fait accompli or there-is-a-consensus argument. Also different stylistic standards are not "jarring" at all. We have them for things such as referencing and structure and I really doubt the average reader notices, let alone cares. bridies (talk) 03:38, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

A few things-

  1. While Final Fantasy (ファイナルファンタジー Fainaru Fantaji) has been mentioned many times, I think you'll find that many of video game project members would extend their rationale to similar loan words in other topics.
    • Final Fantasy is an example to help others understand the point we're trying to make.
    • I don't know why video games keep getting singled out, when the rationale is not intrinsically linked to video games.
    • Let's please stick to the idea presented.
  2. The idea that the romaji provides information is only sound if the reader knows how to interpret that information. Otherwise, it does serve as clutter and creates the opportunity for confusion.
    • Without a pronunciation guide for the Hepburn romanization (and any foreign language really), readers are likely to read the English letters used in romaji with English pronunciation, which I think we can all agree is less than consistent.
      • Think of how often you've heard "Kuh-rod-dy" instead of "Kah-rah-teh", "Kerry-oh-key" instead of "Kah-rah-oh-kay", and "Ana-may" (I've even heard "Ana-me" with a long "E") instead of "Ah-nee-meh".
    • I concede that the affected population that would be confused is minimal, but at the same time I believe the affected population that would find the romaji useful is also minimal.
  3. A consistent argument has been consistency. However, we need to keep in mind that this is a style guideline, which is suppose to allow for flexible application via common sense.
    • While our common sense may differ on occassion, Wikipedia still allows us the freedom to apply it.
    • I think you'll find that there is little argument from video game project members that including romaji is a good idea for a lot of cases. The argument from us is against an across the board approach, because exceptions do exist.
    • I believe a guideline can be worded to allow for minimal exceptions, while still conveying that exceptions are not the normal practice.

Having said the above, I hope we can focus on working together towards two things:

  1. Update {{nihongo}} to provide links to pages that explain to the un-informed what they are seeing.
  2. Create a sample wording for the guideline that will satisfy the different sides of the argument here.

(Guyinblack25 talk 16:11, 16 July 2010 (UTC))

Section break 3

And as an aside to an earlier aspect of this discussion: it seems that for when the English name is different from the literal translation of the Japanese name, why is the English name included in the nihongo template as the first parameter and not separate them as is done in some anime articles? For example, I'd rewrite the first sentence of Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn as follows:

Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn, originally released in Japan as Fire Emblem: The Goddess of Dawn (ファイアーエムブレム 暁の女神, Faiā Emuburemu Akatsuki no Megami)...

Thoughts?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 17:41, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I guess it's because precedent has always been set like that for video game articles. But I really prefer your re-written version, it seems to me that it makes the most sense and makes the alternative Japanese title more obvious to the reader. Nomader (Talk) 17:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually, these kinds of titles ARE supposed to be separated (see The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past for instance). Many editors just lump together all the titles in the templates even when they are totally different >_< I spend a lot of time separating these titles when I find groups of related articles that make this mistake. It's a very widespread mistake. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 17:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
The formatting at ALttP is terrible though.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:41, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree that in these cases, the Japanese title in a nihongo template should be separate, but some of your recent edits deviate from the intended usage, Ryulong. Note that games like Link's Awakening were never released under an English title in Japan, so it should actually read:

  • The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, released in Japan as Zelda no Densetsu: Yume o Miru Shima (ゼルダの伝説 夢をみる島, Zeruda no Densetsu: Yume o Miru Shima, lit. "The Legend of Zelda: The Dreaming Island")

...unless the English title is official and commonly used in Japan, like It's a Wonderful World. If the translation of the Japanese title is not official, it is to be enclosed in quotation marks. However, I feel we have not discussed sufficiently enough yet how to treat official translations. Personally, I think it should read:

  • Lufia, known as Estpolis Denki (エストポリス伝記, Esutoporisu Denki, officially translated as Biography Estpolis)[1] in Japan Prime Blue (talk) 22:29, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

...with a reference always included for the official translation. Also, there were no strong objections to putting not commonly used foreign-language titles in footnotes if the length of its nihongo template would hurt the readability of the lead paragraph (as is the case with the Oracle games). However, I did not add it to VG/GL back then. Prime Blue (talk) 22:29, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Putting in the half-assed translation with romaji is not necessary when there's a literal translation. It should be clear that the title is the one in Japanese text rather than the one in English.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:41, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Note that it is not a translation but the phonetic title with the proper names written out in their intended form. However, I think it is misleading for readers when they read...
"The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, released in Japan as The Legend of Zelda: The Dreaming Island (ゼルダの伝説 夢をみる島, Zeruda no Densetsu: Yume o Miru Shima) [...]"
...because the game was not released in Japan as "The Legend of Zelda: The Dreaming Island". It was released as Zelda no Densetsu: Yume o Miru Shima, and "The Legend of Zelda: The Dreaming Island" is an unofficial translation of that title. I am currently proposing a new Non-English games section on VG/GL, so feel free to join there and to discuss how these issues are handled. Prime Blue (talk) 05:14, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
While the phrasing may be flawed, as someone that doesn't speak Japanese, I find the translation of the title to be more relevant informative than how to handle an unfamiliar language. —Ost (talk) 16:27, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Prime Blue does have a legitimate point here because the way that is worded it will be seen that the title is not ゼルダの伝説 夢をみる島, but instead The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening in Japan because the former comes first.Jinnai 02:31, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Another problem with that is that English is longer (in general) than Japanese, especially for litteral translations. No matter what you do there is nothing that can be done with School Rumble: 2nd Semester – Summer Training Camp (of fear?)!! Ghost's Appearing in the Western-styled Building!? Fighting Over the Treasure!!! (スクールランブル二学期 恐怖の(?)夏合宿! 洋館に幽霊現る!? お宝を巡って真っ向勝負!!!の巻, School Rumble Ni-Gakki Kyōfu no (?) Natsugasshuku! Yōkan ni Yūrei Arawaru!? Otakara wo Megutte Makkō Shōbu!!! No Maki). What do you put into a notation because all 3 are long enough to impare reading flow.Jinnai 18:13, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
I think that for discussing Japanese releases, the Japanese name should come first (or at least a Romanization thereof), because that is the official title. To put the translation first risks creating the false impression that the English translation itself is its official release title. However, I am confused about the proposed Romanization - why it is necessary to have two Romanizations in the Zelda example? Wouldn't it be enough just to say something like The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, released in Japan as Zeruda no Densetsu: Yume o Miru Shima (ゼルダの伝説 夢をみる島, lit. "The Legend of Zelda: The Dreaming Island")
-- Joren (talk) 13:41, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
This is another issue here. Because ゼルダ is "Zelda", there is a push towards using "Zelda" in the romanized title and then "Zeruda" in the romaji title. By perhaps using

The Legend of Zelda: The Dreaming Island (literal translation) (ゼルダの伝説 夢をみる島, Zeruda no Densetsu: Yume o Miru Shima)

or some sort of footnote using {{r|group=Note|literal}} and using this as the footnote:

The title here is a literal translation of the Japanese release title. No official translation has been provided by [insert publisher].

This would eliminate the need for having two romanizations as well as providing the reader with the English before throwing Japanese at them.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 14:05, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Also, it's counterproductive to have an entirely separate discussion to suggest that all of this information should be shunted to the footnotes where it doesn't exactly belong.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 14:18, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
In this case, we already gave the reader English by listing the English-language release first. I don't see anything wrong with having the Romaji first with the English/kana in the parens, and it would cut down on the amount of text needed.
-- Joren (talk) 14:26, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
The (literal translation), while it helps, still kind of throws me off. As a layman reading the article, I'd expect "released in Japan as..." to be immediately followed by THE official title, whatever it is. Given that expectation, my actual preference would be for Japanese followed by parens with Romaji and English, but that would probably be inconsistent with the rest of the MOS and English Wikipedia as a whole. So I would perhaps advocate for Romaji followed by parens with Japanese and English as the least confusing alternative.
-- Joren (talk) 14:32, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Even that is inconsistant as in many instances the litteral translation will be wanted first for Feature articles because this is an English Wikipedia.Jinnai 15:29, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
In this case, we already have the English translation first. Remember, we are talking about "(English Title), released in Japan as (Japanese Romaji) (Kana) (English Translation)." -- Joren (talk) 15:56, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually the ones i've brought up to FAC/FLC want it with the English literall first.Jinnai 15:58, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Can you give some examples? My main sticking point is the wording "released in Japan as" specifically identifies it as an official title when it's not. If you have a better wording or phrasing to use that could address this concern, it would be good to know. Also, I take it you're talking about feedback from the FAC process? Perhaps those giving the feedback could be invited to participate in this discussion.-- Joren (talk) 16:30, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
Ryulong, please word your contributions to discussions more careful in the future. I explained before that the new proposed guidelines for video game articles suggest to use footnotes only when long Japanese titles hurt the readability of the article – so please don't misrepresent these proposals elsewhere.
Also, I strongly urge everyone involved here to continue this discussion about the translation of game titles over here. The rōmaji issue, however, should be kept and discussed here at MOS-JP, as it will affect all projects once there is consensus on it. Prime Blue (talk) 19:21, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Secondary issue: lack of citation

If this is the wrong place for this discussion, please forgive the transgression.

I also think a lack of citation with many (and all that I've seen) nihongo templates is a problem. For example, this series of edits represents the addition of ten pieces of unreferenced information (never mind the already unreferenced Japanese characters). While all of this may represent simple fact to those familiar with Japanese, this is still the English encyclopedia; a foreign language translation like this should probably be sourced, no? I mean, where are these translations coming from? If the sources aren't up to WP:RS, why exactly are we including the info? If the sources do meet WP:RS, why not cite them? Maybe there's something I'm missing here, but it seems a simple and obvious oversight to just include this information unreferenced. However, given the current state of many articles employing the template, it's understandable why unreferenced information is assumed to be okay. DKqwerty (talk) 03:29, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Literal translations don't need to be referenced, and neither do romanizations. To require that would be insane. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 03:37, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Well then how the hell do I know when some anon. is adding translations that they're not just adding nonsense? How do I (not only as an editor, but as an information seeker) know that these "literal translations" aren't just made-up bullshit? DKqwerty (talk) 03:42, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
That's where WP:AGF comes in. It's not as if people are running rampant through the wiki and placing bad translations and romanizations into it. If you ever question the translation or romanization of something, ask at WT:JP and someone there will be happy to check it for you. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 03:48, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
See, now that seems insane to me, that I have to go begging people to tell me if a translation is accurate of not. It seems far more sane and logical to simply reference every translation (though I have no idea how that would be possible). Granted, it would have been easier to just reference them from the start and now it would just be a gigantic and unmanageable task, but that still doesn't excuse the fact that there's no way to verify this without asking someone. And how exactly is a non-editing reader supposed to know to ask WT:JP whether something is correct or not? I had to make a thread on an MOS talk page just to find out there's even a location to get translations confirmed; the average non-editing reader isn't going searching for help by way of MOS talk pages and project pages. Wikipedia isn't about asking someone for verification, it's about providing it upfront in an easily accessible and reliable manner. I know the reality of these video game articles is that so much information goes unreferenced, but that doesn't mean we can't at least start forming better habits. Or am I asking too much here? DKqwerty (talk) 04:03, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Addendum: Also, assuming good faith and assuming accuracy are two different things. I can assume someone is trying to be helpful and thinks they know what they're doing, but that doesn't make it so. Instead, I prefer WP:V: should I really have to request a translation check every time Ryulong goes on a translation binge (without any edit summaries by the way) when I have no indication he can actually speak Japanese besides the "ja-1" userbox on heis user page? I don't get it. DKqwerty (talk) 04:14, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Given the number of editors with knowledge of Japanese, I'd say this would be of little concern as it can be easily verified. We also allow untranslated foreign language citations for article sourcing in Good and Featured articles. The topic title is not a big stretch from that.
I understand your concern though. But it is part of a bigger trend of un-experienced editors just doing what they do. All topics have articles that don't properly reference content. But the experienced editors provide the necessary sources what the reader to verify the article. (Guyinblack25 talk 04:11, 11 July 2010 (UTC))
Actually, two of our featured lists, Harvest Moon titles and Kirby media both cite the romanji and the katakana throughout the list. It's not too difficult if you can find the official Japanese site of a game, usually you can cite the page in order to cite the katakana in the article. I don't think it would be a bad idea to make sure people weren't throwing random words in Japanese out into obscure Japanese video games. Nomader (Talk) 05:54, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
There is absolutely no reason for my edits to List of Mario series characters would need to be referenced because all I did was add romaji names to where they were not before. This is because we have a standardized method by which to transliterate kanji, hiragana, and katakana and that should not need to be referenced at all. I doubt that references should be needed for romaji for even the articles you cited. Likewise, titles of articles should not need to be referenced either. Why should you be required to verify what something is called?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:03, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually, I think there are many reasons-- it would make sure that people putting up random translations weren't just putting up nonsense, and it would make sure that the most accurate translation available was posted. It wouldn't hurt to verify the proper Japanese name for a character through reliable sources, would it? Nomader (Talk) 16:00, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
The source media would be the reliable source in all cases, and that should be enough to verify that something within it is called whatever it is.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 16:13, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Translations have not been subject to verification even in cases of feature article candidate promotions. I see no reason why we should start now for Japanese translations.Jinnai 17:03, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree with both you and Ryulong on this point, in that the source material should be more than enough. As someone who doesn't write Japanese particularly well, I've just always used referencing to be able to write the correct katakana in articles; however, per both of your comments, I feel that people who speak the language sufficiently should be just fine translating the source title. Nomader (Talk) 17:32, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Referencing literal translations is just not practical, seeing how translation is not an exact science and many titles will have several unofficial translations across reliable sources. Prime Blue (talk) 05:25, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Can someone weigh in on the HTML comments at List of Pokémon? They request sources for Romanization—which above I read as unnecessary— and seem to be challenged occasionally. Is this a special case? —Ost (talk) 16:47, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

A short explanation: The HTML comments request sources for the "official romanizations of Japanese names" (e.g. "Lizardo"), not the Hepburn romanizations ("Rizādo") – it basically means "provide references for official romanizations of new Pokémon, otherwise provide just the Hepburn romanization" (like "Rankurusu", for example). However, as far as I know, Nintendo never provided a full list with all of these official romanizations. Hence, I think even the old ones should be removed where no reference is present.
182 (no, it was updated...200!) official romanizations for the Japanese Pokémon names were provided in Bandai's Kimewaza Pokémon Kids series, in that the cards included the names in Roman letters. See here. I will open a new section on the talk page there to ask where the other old official romanizations came from.
I hope that reply was understandable, as it is a bit confusing... :/ Prime Blue (talk) 18:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
There have apparently been official Anglicized names for Pokémon as of late, so they can say that チラーミィ is "Chillarmy".—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for those explanations. They helped me understand the difference between Hepburn and official. I appreciate the note Prime left on the talk page, too. —Ost (talk) 21:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Anytime. :-) Prime Blue (talk) 21:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

RfC on the need for romaji with English loanwords

There has been an ongoing divide between the community as to dealing with English loanwords, specifically titles (but it has wider implications), where the words are loan words from English transformed into katakana equivalents. One side believes that unless there is significant difference between the pronunciation, no romaji (Roman alphabet) translation is needed as it is similar to a dialectical pronunciation (actual term eludes me) of an English word. The other side beleives there should be no exceptions made because most English speakers do not understand the Japanese language enough to comprehend pronunciation with just the katakana.Jinnai 05:18, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

  • There is no such thing as a "dialectical pronunciation" when it comes to the various loanwords in Japanese. They are words incorporated into the Japanese language from other languages, and should be treated as Japanese words, even if some are English cognates.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 12:42, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Not commenting, but you should reword that RfC as to what Ryulong mentioned, Jinnai. It is not loanwords that are discussed, but English words rendered in katakana. But as the "final" (ファイナル) example above has shown, it might be hard to make a distinction between the two in many cases. Prime Blue (talk) 00:29, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Alright, there has been no new post for a few days now, so I am proposing the following ideas:

  • Put a note on the WP:MOS-JP page, with a link to this talk page, stating that there is no consensus on how to deal with English loanwords. People can keep discussing the matter; however, I don't think this will be resolved anytime soon.
  • Change the wording of the {{nihongo}} template from "aaaa (bbbb cccc?)" to "aaaa (Japanese: bbbb, romanization: cccc)" as this is clearer and is how most other language templates are worded. Add optional fields for romanizations other than Hepburn (if they are used, "romanization:" should become "Hepburn romanization:" like how "pinyin:" becomes "Hanyu pinyin:" in the {{zh}} templates). Change {{nihongo2}}, {{nihongo3}}, {{nihongo4}}, {{nihongo core}}, {{nihongo foot}} and {{nihongo title}} accordingly.
  • Consider changing the links of all language templates from Mainspace articles to Help: pages, and/or consider creating a main guideline page for all the templates in Category:Multilingual support templates as there doesn't seem to be one currently. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 08:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Megata Sanshiro's first point: Bluerfn removed the dispute tag after the last discussion had died down. I re-added it with a link to these sections, and unless a clear consensus is reached (which seems unlikely indeed as everyone disappeared yet again), it should not be removed this time. Prime Blue (talk) 17:27, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that this guideline isn't the one that's disputed. It is WP:VG's guideline that is, even though all of the discussion is taking place here (and just because the WP:VG people are more vocal in opposing this).—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
The mere fact that one user requested a disputed guideline tag and another one added it should make it apparent that this is a disputed guideline here, not to mention the whole discussion above, and the RfC. WikiProject Japan never had any consensus on MOS:JP saying romanizations for English words rendered in katakana should be included. And if you think it did, then gladly point out the discussion, because I think this is the main reason why you think VG/GL "contradicts" MOS:JP.
And if you have a problem with VG/GL having reached a clear-cut consensus on this issue in the past (and thus not being in line with MOS:JP having no consensus), then engage in the discussion at the respective talk page, which I have told you to do several times now. Prime Blue (talk) 19:36, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
When this issue was first raised I was told to do so here and on WT:VG because WT:VG/GL is so incredibly low traffic that it would have been pointless. The consensus made here will very likely affect both WP:MOS-JA and WP:VG/GL so it is actually redundant to have two ongoing discussions on the same issue.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
So how about we create a subpage, move this discussion there, then transclude the subpage into its own section on both discussion pages, a la Wikipedia:Transclusion#Subpages? This should make this single discussion visible on both pages.
-- Joren (talk) 21:57, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Ryulong: Sorry, I was not aware of the recent discussion you began on the talk page of WP:VG. Had I known that the editors involved there reinforced the old consensus of omitting these romanizations, I would not have pointed you over to the talk page of VG/GL. Again, sorry.
Now, as to the issue at hand: MOS:JP will very likely affect several projects' guidelines (VG/GL included) once consensus is reached here. I spent a lot of energy on MOS:JP trying to bring the last discussion about romanizations to a satisfying consensus for everyone, but people simply disappeared when it came to forming clear-cut rules. So everyone will have to excuse me for not being too involved this time around. As stated above, this discussion will likely go on for a very long time. Until then, Ryulong, you should try everything you can to reach a consensus here if you feel these romanizations should be included (among other things, I even tried to enter mediation in the last discussion, but only a single user signed up), while at the same time respecting and following the guidelines of other projects.
And to avoid further misunderstandings, I have stated before that I am kind of indifferent to the issue at this moment, though I am even slightly leaning towards the inclusion of rōmaji in every case. My prime concern with nihongo templates, however, will always be the readability of articles. One always has to keep in mind that the majority of readers will come to Wikipedia to read articles, not to look for snippets of an article between kanji, kana, and romanizations (I think you could even take this last paragraph as a reply to the RfC...). Prime Blue (talk) 00:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
@Joren: A subpage would not really be necessary, because all any other project or guideline that would defer to this one, all that would be necessary would be a link to this guideline, as many other guidelines do.
@Prime Blue: The only times when I have ignored the guidelines are when I feel they get in the way of making the project as a whole better. That is what WP:VG/GL is at the moment.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
The extensive arguments against the relevant MOS guideline, the fact this RFC exists and the fact the two guidelines disagree indicates that there is a dispute. It is plainly ridiculous to point to two conflicting guidelines (the VG one has plenty of discussion and agreement behind it) and state that one is disputed and one is not. You're statement that WP:VG associated editors are "more vocal" is also pretty rich when you have engaged in pointed editing, profanity and derisory accusations of racism. bridies (talk) 08:17, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Ryulong, it is really hard to assume good faith if you are justifying your actions with "ignore all rules" at this point in time, after all the comments and warnings you have got for not following VG/GL – even though you were aware of the recent consensus.
Also, two questions:
1. Why did you re-add the dispute tag? You brought the issue up and the resulting consensus of WP:VG was clear.
2. Concerning the same edit: Why did you remove the under discussion tag pointing to the new guidelines proposal instead of just adding the dispute tag? Prime Blue (talk) 11:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
To answer both questions, the item is disputed, but it is being discussed here, rather than in the talk pages of the video game WikiProject. Also, there was no "recent consensus" in the WP:VG talk pages. Basically, I was told to discuss what was happening here. The consensus concerning romaji is being formed here. Not at WP:VG. All I have done is edit those pages in accordance with this manual of style. And the only warnings I have received are from you who felt that there was a consensus, when there clearly was not. What is decided here will affect all WikiProjects that deal with Japanese text, which means it is more important than WP:VG/GL. Really Prime Blue, if you actually read this conversation you keep referring to, there was not a consensus because they are talking about this ongoing discussion and the discussion merely stopped at WT:VG.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
  • You just answered the first question, not the second one.
  • People of WP:VG almost universally told you that these romanizations were not desired on the project, among them Jinnai, Anomie, Guyinblack25, David Fuchs, and Nomader. Ost316 gave a neutral statement, and Nihonjoe did not directly address the issue, though he is generally for the inclusion of those romanizations (unless he changed his opinion since the last discussion). However, how you took those comments (in conjunction with the fact that there was a previous consensus on the issue) as a "way to go" for all your VG/GL-disregarding edits on video game articles (again, IAR certainly is not justified) or how you took Guyinblack25's link here as "there is no consensus on VG/GL", I do not understand.
  • The only discussion here is if these romanizations should be included or not, not if VG/GL should be overruled before there even is consensus on MOS:JP (unless this is what you are going for, but then I demand to know what the whole point of the above discussion is). Just because MOS:JP will supersede VG/GL once there is consensus here does not automatically make the guidelines at VG/GL disputed.
Prime Blue (talk) 21:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I was under the impression that the discussion here as to whether or not to include the romaji for "loanwords" (English to Japanese cognates) would affect all articles that include such words, whether or not they be about video games. Clearly, if it is decided here that romaji should always be included, then WP:VG/GL will have to change such that the text forbidding Fainaru Fantajii or Suupaa Mario or Metaru Gia would be removed. What one project wants does not predicate whether or not it will be challenged by another project. The consensus here should very clearly dictate the consensus elsewhere, as this should be held as the parent guideline for dealing with Japanese text.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that has been stated many, many times now. But VG/GL cannot be in line with MOS:JP if there is no consensus here yet. Unless VG/GL ...I can't believe I'm writing this.
And again, I would like to have question 1 answered. Why did you remove the "under discussion" tag with the link to the new non-English games guideline proposals? I don't want to engage in an edit war over guideline tags, so I want to know a reason before I re-add it. Prime Blue (talk) 23:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Because there should be a link on WP:VG/GL to the discussion here as to not make it so there are two parallel discussions on the same topic that reach separate consensuses because of the normal readers of that page. Keep the disputed one to point here.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:10, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I bluntly explained here and in my later comment that my proposal does not touch the rōmaji issue at all. My proposal did not start a parallel discussion. Prime Blue (talk) 00:54, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Then put your link back and keep the link here.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Done. But I still can't say I understand why you think VG/GL is disputed and we're discussing it here. Prime Blue (talk) 06:48, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm coming into this late, but my feeling is... "Final Fantasy" is the name of the game. These are English words, with meaning in English, and the phrase has meaning in English. The name of the game in Japanese is still Final Fantasy, but transliterated to their local language. In other words, the name of the game in Japan is in English. Since it is in English, there's no reason to then re-transliterate the title back into characters English speakers can understand. The Japanese and romaji should only be included if the title is not a direct transliteration of a clearly English title. Shenmue is not an English word, and the katakani/romaji make sense there. Metal Gear Solid is clearly made up of English words, and adding "Metaru Gia Soriddo" adds nothing to an understanding of the topic.

Furthermore, there's another issue here; why Japanese? Ryulong suggested in a conversation that it was because the game was released in Japan first, but that is certainly not universal to video games, not even Japanese-developed ones. Is it the locale of the developer? Is it the location is was released in first? In that case, we run into problems with Metal Gear Solid having romaji, but Metal Gear Solid 2 lacking it. And, what about non-game title related concepts? Metal Gear (weapon) included katakana and romaji purely because, so far as I can tell, it had those in the Japanese version of the game, despite those words being English. I note that on the Japanese Wikipedia, in the article on Metal Gear, it says "(METAL GEAR)", acknowledging that the words are English. I don't see why we need to offer a transliteration to Japanese in two separate scripts (katakana and romaji) for English words.

The Japanese (and a transliteration thereof) should only be included if it is anything other than a straight transliteration, or if it a straight transliteration of a non-English word. Metal Gear? No. Final Fantasy? No. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night? Yes. Shenmue? Yes. --Golbez (talk) 20:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

But the names are not "Final Fantasy" or "Metal Gear". They are "ファイナルファンタジー" and "メタルギア", which I stated to you in other conversations. If a game is developed in Japan and released in Japan for the Japanese market, it falls under the umbrella of both WP:JAPAN and WP:VG, and would have to be written according to the guidelines. The fact that the guidelines conflict is an issue. If MOS:JA changes, it will affect other aspects of the encyclopedia. Making WP:VG/GL#Non-English games in line with this guideline and other language guidelines would be a lot easier than changing this guideline, and having every other project that depends on it (WP:ANIME, WP:H!P, WP:TOKU, etc) have to modify their guidelines.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
But those are not Japanese words. Those are English words, transliterated into Japanese. And the games are also released in America for an American market, sometimes by Americans. And that doesn't answer the issue of Metal Gear (weapon), which is a concept, not a game. It makes no sense to me to give the English, then transliterate that English into Japanese, and then give the re-transliteration of that back into English. --Golbez (talk) 20:45, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
They are Japanese words. Just because they are cognates from English does not mean that they are not Japanese. The fact is that ファイナルファンタジーX and メタルギアソリッド were developed by Japanese companies. They were then released as Final Fantasy X and Metal Gear Solid in the international market. The fact that the Japanese media uses both "FINAL FANTASY X" and "ファイナルファンタジーX" to refer to the same game does not mean we should exclude the title as it is written in the Japanese language or exclude the phonetic pronunciation (romanization) of the Japanese title in the Japanese language. There is no reason to exclude any romanization of Japanese text unless it is identical (not similar) to the English version of that text.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
They are no more Japanese words than fainaru or rodina are English words. --Golbez (talk) 23:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
"ファイナル" appears in Japanese dictionaries.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:10, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
I will probably hate myself for getting involved here, but I thought I could provide an opinion from a different perspective. The prolific Duden - Deutsches Universalwörterbuch, for example, includes the English/French word "Franchise" though it is still a long ways off from being German, or from being in everyday usage in Germany – and it is also included in Duden - Das große Fremdwörterbuch. I'm just saying that the inclusion in a dictionary might not be the ne plus ultra when it comes to determining if a word has "crossed the border". Prime Blue (talk) 07:04, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
The word "final" is not in the Japanese dictionaries. The word "ファイナル" (fainaru) is.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Ryulong, all you do is repeat statements, give evasive answers or no answers at all. It is really hard to have an orderly discussion under these circumstances. Prime Blue (talk) 15:00, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Well that certainly makes sense, since it would make as little sense to include "final" in a Japanese dictionary as it would to include 小銃 in an English dictionary. That doesn't mean that 'ファイナル' is a Japanese word, anymore than shoujou is an English word. They are transliterations of words from other languages, not translations. Dictionaries have to speak to their own language, after all. However, looking at the j-e dict, it appears "fainaru", in classic Japanese fashion (I'm looking at you, sutaato botan), has come into common use, so perhaps that's not the best example. Should we move on to "Gia" or "Fantajii" instead? --Golbez (talk) 16:54, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
The name of the game is Final Fantasy. Plain English. This is what is on the primary source, as shown above. bridies (talk) 08:41, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
The name of the game is ファイナルファンタジー in the Japanese setting. That is what they have used for the past 20 years, in addition to "FINAL FANTASY". Stop saying that the Japanese don't know the name of their own game in their own language. And Prime Blue, VG/GL is disputed because my discovery of that guideline is why this whole discussion was started. This guideline should be the end all be all on treating Japanese text and no WikiProject should be making up their own guidelines that conflict with this one.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Ryulong- if this should be the end all be all on treating Japanese text on Wikipedia, then you have to work with the editors of the relevant projects to craft a guideline that makes sense to everyone and takes into account the ideas of those editors. The way things are going now, it looks like this will be a never-ending disagreement.
It doesn't matter which way would be easier, it matters which way reflects the collaborative efforts of the affected editors. I.e. a consensus. (Guyinblack25 talk 19:52, 28 July 2010 (UTC))
Right now, I don't even have to formulate arguments anymore. It is all there already, but I can't force you to respond to it. Prime Blue (talk) 20:10, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
The only people discussing anything here are the video games editors and they're going to be wanting to make this guideline in line with theirs. I have yet to see anyone from any of the other projects that deal with Japanese text even show up here. None of these other projects even have guidelines to specifically treat this text, as they refer to this one. It's hard to come to a consensus on this page which would affect every other page when there is less and less input.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:38, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
And yet again, you touch on another subject instead of giving a response. So I'll bring it up not for the first, not for the second or the third, fourth or fifth, but for the sixth time:
Prime Blue (talk) 21:13, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Fine.

  • The non-English games guideline found at WP:VG/GL is in dispute because it is being argued about on this very page. While you may think that what is decided here should only affect this page, you are wrong. This page is the guideline to deal with all Japanese text on the English Wikipedia. Right now, it is only myself arguing against you and several other members of WP:VG who for the most part support their guideline as it is written. When this discussion started weeks ago, I was told that I should use the higher traffic pages to discuss this, and that's why the threads were started at WT:VG and here. I had thought that the thread at WT:VG was intended to point people to this page to discuss it, but instead you have taken it as being the consensus agreement for everything regarding that project.
  • And I apologize, and I realize that there is nothing specific on MOS:JP that specifically says "use romaji in all cases", but it does say "Revised Hepburn romanization should be used in all cases..." here. It is merely the general practice of every single other project other than those video game related to use the three first parameters of {{nihongo}} (of which the Japanese text is the only "required" parameter for technical reasons) when doing anything with Japanese text. This is the contradiction. As it stands, even though there is no consensus here over this or anything written in stone, it is the standard practice of everyone not in WP:VG to use {{nihongo|English|Japanese|Romaji}} in full, even if the Japanese name is merely an example of gairaigo from English. This has been the case for a while.

Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:46, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

"In the Japanese setting" is meaningless drivel. What Japanese media do with an English title is no concern of the English language Wikipedia, even if the work came out of Japan. If a work has an English title, certainly if it is the primary title, it is redundant to include a transliteration in a script few English speakers understand, let alone provide a redundant transliteration of that transliteration. Especially in the first line of an article; at most it could be a footnote. This is the position uninvolved editors to the page are continually taking. On that note, Long's continued disparaging of VG editors is no valid argument. What userboxes an editor has or what talk space pages they frequent has no bearing on anything. Arguments are what count and it seems to me that this discussion shows that the WP:VG guideline has a stronger backing. If more input from other relevant projects is needed, I would suggest posting on relevant talk pages. bridies (talk) 05:28, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

First of all, don't call me "Long". No one does and it does not make any sense. I'm sorry if you find the text "ファイナルファンタジー" redundant. That's the name in Japan, and we are depriving the readers of this knowledge of excluding it, just as we would if we exclude "Fainaru Fantajī". And I am not "disparaging" VG editors. I am mentioning WP:VG editors because I have yet to see anyone, other than Golbez, Honjamaka, and Thibbs, that is not involved with this page or WP:VG, and only Golbez has been continually commenting here. We only have two opinions being presented here: those who support WP:VG/GL#Non-English games and those who support WP:MOS-JA. The only reason that VG/GL has a stronger backing is because the majority of arguments on this page are being made by those who primarily edit articles on video games, rather than articles on other Japanese subjects. I've posted on the relevant talk pages, but no one is coming for whatever reason.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:18, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Long means dragon to me, but fair enough. The name in Japan is Final Fantasy, per the primary source. You've disproved your own argument: if you've posted on talk pages and nobody has replied, it simply indicates how little profile those projects have in relation to WP:VG and why pointing to their practices means nothing, WP:VG on the other hand being a project with a large participation, on articles pertinent to this issue in particular. That editors backing the WP:VG guideline edit video game articles or are associated with WP:VG does not at all diminish the fact that the guideline has strong consensus and going on this discussion a stronger backing than the flawed MOS guideline. bridies (talk) 09:07, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
I posted messages on WT:ANIME and WT:JAPAN. Those are not little profile or anything. And the WP:VG guideline still conflicts with the guidelines and general practices of at least 4 other WikiProjects that work on articles that utilize Japanese. I have yet to see anything that shows that WP:VG is bigger in scope than WP:JAPAN, WP:ANIME, WP:MUSIC and why it can have its own guideline for dealing with Japanese text that is entirely different from the other two. As far as you are concerned, Japanese at all does not need to be on any page if it is katakana and can be directly translated into English, such as on any game in the Mario series, Wario series, Donkey Kong series, Star Fox series, Final Fantasy, Earthbound, Dragon Quest, Fire Emblem, Advance Wars, or any of the consoles or handhelds.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't matter how many projects you can point to that nominally agree (probably because they've not given it much thought) with the MOS guideline if they have no editors willing to contribute to a discussion. Scope means nothing either if there's no participation. What I mean by "profile" or "prolific" is how many active editors a project has, how active they are in the talk space, how much quality content (peer reviewed content: FA, GA, maybe DKY) it has produced, that sort of thing. WP:JAPAN doesn't count its articles for quick reference, but WP:VG seems to have at least twice as many FAs and several times as many GAs. Furthermore, a large percentage of WP:JAPAN's peer reviewed content falls under the scope of either WP:VG or WP Military history (a behemoth among wikiprojects with several times as many FAs as WP:VG). So I really don't see how you can make these arguments on the part of WP:JAPAN and this part of the MOS. bridies (talk) 10:00, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
So your argument is that because WP:VG has more FAs, GAs, and DKYs and that its members are the only ones contributing here, they should have the only valid opinion?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 10:08, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
Reply to Ryulong's comment:
Prime Blue (talk) 13:19, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
No. I'm not sure I can put it any plainer but I'm saying that a larger number of FAs, GAs etc indicate a larger number of activate, competent editors, which explains why there is a larger number of them here. That this larger number of editors all come from WP:VG isn't a valid reason for you to dismiss it as the video game guys ganging up on everyone else. Anyone from any project may have a valid opinion but if you have asked them to provide those opinions and they haven't, that suggests those opinionated editors are just not there. So you can't say "Project X, Y and Z agree with this MOS guideline and this shows it has consensus" when those projects do not have a significant number of editors who have debated or are willing to debate the issue. bridies (talk) 13:22, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I just want to address two little things - loan words are not all from English (e.g. arubaito and randoseru). I don't believe that all katakana transliterations are "loan words" either since they are not integrated into the language. When I first saw a review of the new "Super Famicom" it didn't immediately occur to me that it just mean "Family Computer" and even thought I am pretty familiar with Japanese these days, when Gainax announced their "Pansuto" project I still had to look it up. On the other hand, ストライクウィッチーズ is no more a loan word than ドクター・フー - they are transliterated names, and while it may have come into common usage due to the age and popularity of the games, the same applies to ファイナルファンタジー (ファイナル as a word only exist as a disambiguation page on Wikipedia Japan so I wouldn't consider it a loanword on its own either). While I don't think it hurts to have the romaji there for these titles to indicate the Japanese pronunciation if nothing else, and I don't like removing information could potentially be useful to someone, I can see there is a valid point to be made for omitting them. Shiroi Hane (talk) 01:38, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

No matter what people argue here, the fact always remains that putting a translation of a translation is redundant as far as the article is concerned. Ok, so I need help reading the Japanese stuff, but now I need to learn how to read these characters that vaguely resemble English? Dude, get the point that this is an English Wikipedia. Adding more layers that aren't English isn't doing good, especially if it is just the English turned on it's head by the addition of regional dialect from foreign countries. While I'm still against it all, I completely agree with the suggestions below as an appeasement. Then if I really care enough, I will do just as I would with any other topic on Wikipedia and move my mouse over the content and/or click on it to learn more. - Odokee (talk) 05:15, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

It's not a translation of a translation. It is effectively a transliteration of a transliteration. There is no regional dialect here. You clearly do not know what is going on here, and you would rather remove any Japanese text seeing as you find it redundant.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 05:42, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
It is effectively redundant and also 99.9% useless to the populace. You're also just wrong. On multiple points, at that. There is a dialect coming into play, which is why words are so twisted in the end when really it is just how some dudes on the other side of the planet tend to pronounce things and then write it down that way in their language. Then you're taking it one step further and forcing us to look at horrid crap that you repeatedly edit into articles when no one else wants it there. For someone telling another person he doesn't know what is going on, you sure don't seem to pay attention to what people have been telling you. - Odokee (talk) 08:08, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
A "dialect" is a variation of one language within itself. Katakana transliterations of English words is not a dialect of English or Japanese. And you are the only one with the opinion that anything is useless or horrid. Aside from my introduction of the word "series" into the lead section of The Legend of Zelda no one other than you has had any sort of negative reaction to my additions of romaji to any page, as you have been repeatedly edit warring to exclude it, including using misleading edit summaries to do so.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:17, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
You're not making any sense. They are still taking the English word and pronouncing it their own way. Them writing stuff down doesn't affect how they pronounce words. As for your other absurd claims, you again show me that you don't pay attention to what people around you say (and say directly to you), and you seem to be the only side of this "warring" going on by attempting to make the issue personal, with threats and bullying nonetheless. Despite what you may think, and as evidenced by the consensus most of the people on this topic appear to have, your edits are not as valuable as you seem to think. - Odokee (talk) 08:29, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Not true at all, the debate about Final Fantasy should tell you that others have an issue with it. It was however agreed not to go around pointedly changing articles one way or another until the dispute was resolved. The arguments over transliterations and dialects are extraneous, the point is they are redundant. I don't know how many more editors you need to hear this from. bridies (talk) 08:36, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
There is no consensus because the only people who have been discussing anything are those from the Japanese WikiProject and the video games WikiProject, and the only reason the video game WikiProjct editors have a majority is because there are more of them (numerically) discussing this. As it stands right now, I am the only person involved with WP:JAPAN and this guideline who is discussing anything at this point. We have not received any sort of input from editors of other Japanese subject areas for some reason, and it's impossible to form a consensus if barely any other point of views are being provided. The fact still stands that WP:VG has for whatever reason decided to make their own guideline to deal with Japanese text that goes against the general practices of every other project that deals with Japanese text.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Again?. I already explained why this argument is invalid. WP:VG has a guideline regarding Japanese text which has a real consensus. The "general practices" you refer to are nominal only and through fait accompli at that. That an editor is involved with WP:VG has no bearing on their point of view. bridies (talk) 09:03, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Just to clarify further: WP:VG is not a political party. It's not like it has a chairman who decides its stance then forces members to propogate it. The guideline exists because it has consensus, discussion, arguments behind it, not the other way round. You are trying to paint WP:VG as some vocal, opinionated clique when in fact as I have shown WP:JAPAN is the relatively insignificant project which has a fait accompli guideline no one is prepared to defend. bridies (talk) 09:15, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Ryulong, that is not exactly true. While measures should be taken to inform all affected projects, receiving no answer from them does not mean that there is agreement/disagreement and that no consensus can be formed. If no other projects participate in the discussion (Shiroi Hane from WP:ANIME has participated even, but some more opinions would also be welcome), then it is just all of you who have to form consensus – until someone of the others raises their voice in the future. Prime Blue (talk) 12:38, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

WP:ENGLISH says "Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, as with Greek, Chinese or Russian, must be transliterated into characters generally intelligible to literate speakers of English." It also says "The native spelling of a name should generally be included in the first line of the article, with a transliteration if the Anglicization isn't identical." Do we consider English loan words in Japanese as words originally in a Latin alphabet? If we do, we don't need to include the name in the native script (katakana) and its transliteration (romaji). If we don't, we should include names in katakana and romaji. Transliterations should not be omitted if there are words in non-Latin scripts. WP:VG/GL is not in line with this guideline because it says the transliterations are optional. It should be changed so that it follows the site-wide guideline. --Kusunose 14:21, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

If it comes from English surely it's already "Anglicized"... Nevertheless the prevailing argument is that combinations of English loan words with almost identical "Anglicisations" constitute "common sense exceptions" which you will see are allowed for by a style guideline. As an aside I'm obviously inclined to agree that the katakana isn't necessary in these cases either, but I don't think there's any support for that. bridies (talk) 15:01, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
While the titles may simply be Japonifications of English words, I still think that does not mean they are under the umbrella of identical Anglicizations, because we still have "Final Fantasy", "ファイナルファンタジー", and "Fainaru Fantajī", which are the English and Anglicized name, the Japanese and Japonified name, and the transliteration of the Japanese/Japonified name into modified Hepburn. Unless we're dealing with Mario or Wario, there is probably not going to be a case, at least in the realm of video games, where the English/Anglicized name is identical to the transliteration from the original language.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:14, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
That is no different from any other language. Russian's don't pronounce English words (without a lot of practice) or write them the same. For example, they have trouble with words containing the letter "v" in English. That doesn't mean because of that problem we have to show when there is an English word used for something, be it a title, genre or whatever, the Russian pronunciation. That same basic rule is the same with English loan words for any language, including Japanese.Jinnai 22:59, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Why is it that we keep going back to pronunciation? This is not a dialectical issue. For example, Ragnarok Online could include the text "Rageunarokeu Onrain" but it doesn't (because there's no simple inline template to deal with Korean text), but why shouldn't it? Bleach (manga) has "Burīchi" on it, but that doesn't cause any problems, despite the fact that it has been clearly stated on that page that they call it "BLEACH" in Japan. Same goes for One Piece and KAT-TUN and K-On!, etc. Why is such a problem if the article is about a video game?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:28, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Do not take the following statements as an offense, it is not meant that way. But right now, I'll have to ask all of you what your desired end result of this circular debate is, as it seems to me that everyone is making the same points – reformulated – over and over. As I said below, we are now at a point where it should be apparent that the issue won't be solved with a simple "include" or "do not include". So, unless there is a good reason to, you should all stop wasting your time and energy over stressing arguments the other side will not accept anyway, and instead help to create a satisfying compromise (if you don't agree with the one presented, that is) and to bring other projects in to decide on one of the compromises. Otherwise, the discussion will eventually fizzle out, the edit warring will continue, and we'll all be here again some six months down the road. Prime Blue (talk) 00:35, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I completely understand, but the only reason the argument is circular is because there has barely been any other input other than Kusunose pointing out the stance at WP:ENGLISH. We need other projects' input.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
There could be many more comments here that said "do not include", yet the other party would say "include". Just as much as there could be many more comments here that said "include", yet the other party would say "do not include". An RfC was certainly a reasonable step to take while the discussion was still semi-fresh, and Golbez', Shiroi Hane's, and Kusonose's participation is appreciated (not to mention the editors who contributed outside of the RfC section), but all the comments of the world won't make the concerns of the opposite party go away – because, as has been noted before, both sides have valid points. Prime Blue (talk) 01:57, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Prime Blue. It doesn't matter whether an editor is "from" one wikiproject or another. If an editor has the exact same arguments as another who is for (or against) the inclusion of perceived "redundant" romaji, the arguments won't suddenly gain more value just because of that. It would still be the same arguments. This issue isn't about video games, manga or anime. It's about "the romanization of English loanwords in the Japanese language", regardless of what the loanwords are the names of. Many wikiprojects have been invited to this discussion, and if some didn't participate, maybe it's because they just don't care one way or another. Ryulong said Korean words should be romanized too, yet they aren't for some reason. Why? I don't think it's because they have a clearcut consensus about it; I think it's just because they don't care much about it. In my opinion, this discussion on English loanwords in Japanese should go on (and hopefully will end) with the people who do care. If someday an editor arrives and challenges the result with new arguments, we will have no more consensus, but we aren't there yet. Megata Sanshiro (talk) 08:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm glad to see more users joining in the discussion and I'd just like to briefly interject that WP:ENGLISH discusses naming conventions, which I believe means the name of an article; I don't read it as commenting on the inclusion of transliteration in text. —Ost (talk) 14:44, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Naming conventions also covers not only covers the name of an article, but also deals with how to mention alternative names in the lead section, or how to mention the topic in (other) article texts. I referenced WP:ENGLISH because it is a relevant guideline for the inclusion of transliteration in the lead paragraph. --Kusunose 13:38, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
The way I see it, the items in question are identical. Just because you can put a line into Babelfish and translate it into one language and back again to get something different doesn't mean you are getting something new. Therefore this Hooked on Phonics lesson isn't needed. - Odokee (talk) 04:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

"Official romanizations"

Actually, I do have a new wrench to throw into the discussion, and I would appreciate Ryulong's (or Nihonjoe's if he's still following) input. I've mostly been in agreement with keeping the Romanizations, because I find them to be useful and I also value consistency across the entire project. I generally favor the inclusion of the transliterated Romaji in the nihongo templates. However, my current reading of the MOS makes me wonder -- we have a section dealing with names that instructs us to use the "official Romanization" - what does this mean?

Names of companies, products, and organizations
Honor the current romanization used officially by that party (i.e., Kodansha rather than Kōdansha, Doshisha University rather than Dōshisha University). If the entity no longer exists, use the most commonly used format. If this cannot be determined, use the Hepburn romanization as defined here.
  1. Does this also govern the use of Romaji in the nihongo templates? Seems like it would to me, since "Japanese text should be marked with the {{Nihongo}} template".
  2. Given the first point, in cases where there is an official English title that matches the katakana word for word, would that not be considered the official Romanization? (e.g. the company probably uses "Final Fantasy" more than "Fainaru Fantajī")

Because it seems to me that, if both of these assumptions are correct, the current guideline would already obligate us to include Romaji that matches the official English title exactly (e.g., we'd have to write Final Fantasy (ファイナルファンタジー, Final Fantasy), which would make its use redundant. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding the guideline entirely, which I am prone to do. By the way, sorry I haven't had much time to keep up/write responses; I have however been following the course of discussion and hope to continue participating. -- Joren (talk) 01:11, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

1. No, the "official romanizations" are only to be used in the first section of the nihongo template (e.g. Doshisha University (同志社大学, Dōshisha daigaku) instead of Dōshisha University (同志社大学, Dōshisha daigaku)), or elsewhere in the article where no nihongo template is included for the name (e.g. Doshisha University instead of Dōshisha University). The third section of the nihongo template is always the Hepburn romanization.
2. No more need to answer. :-) Prime Blue (talk) 01:57, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply - your #1 is succinct and easy to understand. I wonder if we could have something like that in the MOS? Perhaps the Using Japanese in the article body section which mentions the nihongo template?
-- Joren (talk) 04:06, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I think that should be mentioned in the section 'Names of companies, products, and organizations' and read something like...
'For usage in the "English" segment of a nihongo template and plain mentions of those terms without a nihongo template, honor the current anglicization used officially by that party (i.e., Doshisha University (同志社大学, Dōshisha daigaku) instead of Dōshisha University (同志社大学, Dōshisha daigaku), and Doshisha University rather than Dōshisha University).'
Also, the 'Syllabic "n"' section should be incorporated somewhere under 'Names', too, as it is not treated as an exception to Hepburn romanization. Prime Blue (talk) 10:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
What Prime Blue said. That section of the MOS is only for article titles, for the exact examples Prime Blue gives. This is why we have pages at Kodansha or Tokyo Tower rather than "Kōdansha" or "Tōkyō Tawā".—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
If that's the case, why is there a separate header for "Article names"? I did wonder whether it was just talking about article names, but the product names which I quoted above is under a separate header "Names", which says "This section defines the proper way to write Japanese names on the English Wikipedia" which could easily be understood to mean names anywhere in the article.
Indeed. "Names" governs mentions in an article with and without nihongo templates, whereas WP:English and "Article names" (however, 1. could be reworded here slightly to be more understandable) are for names of articles. Prime Blue (talk) 10:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
-- Joren (talk) 03:53, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Also, a romanization (a.k.a. rōmaji) is not English. It is a transliteration, not a translation. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WikiProject Japan! 03:26, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm aware of that distinction, that it's not a translation... What I was attempting to ask was whether under any circumstances an official English title that happens to match the katakana word for word could also be considered an official romanization. -- Joren (talk) 03:53, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Now you are bringing the translation/transliteration issue up again. "Final Fantasy" is not the official romanization for "ファイナルファンタジー". "Final Fantasy" is the official English translation of "ファイナルファンタジー". Perhaps the MOS should be clarified.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 04:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
I agree with that modification to MOS:JP, but I wikified the terms for users that may not know what is meant. Prime Blue (talk) 10:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Fair enough. I was kind of wondering how in the same MOS we could be mandating revised Hepburn and then talking about "official romanizations" elsewhere as though it were a synonym for trade name. Agree with the edit.
-- Joren (talk) 16:46, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
    • ^ reference here