Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan

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WikiProject Japan (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject icon This page is within the scope of the WikiProject Japan, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Japan-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. Current time in Japan: 07:19, April 27, 2015 (JST, Heisei 27) (Refresh)
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Ogi "ji" ma or Ogi "shi" ma[edit]

I requested renaming of two Japanese islands at Talk:Ogijima and Talk:Megijima because you can know how they should be spelled at this official site of Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism. 男木島(おぎしま) should be Ogishima, and 女木島(めぎしま), Megishima. It is difficult to know whether a "島" is spelled as "shima" or "jima"; I don't know whether there are any more Japanese islands that is not correctly named. I'd be very appreciated if anyone would check the names of Japanese islands. Thanks.--miya (talk) 16:42, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Moves done. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:04, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
日本穣, I'm sorry to ask re-rename these articles, because I found a more reliable source: GAZETTEER OF JAPAN by the Government of Japan(the Geospatial Information Authority of Japan, and the Hydrographic and Oceanographic Department of the Japan Coast Guard) based on the resolution of the United Nations Conference on the Standardization of Geographical Names, which authorizes "Ogi jima"[1] and "Megi Jima"[2]. "しま/じま" (Shima/Jima) means an "island". Sorry for inconvenience.--miya (talk) 08:18, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Flag of Ryukyu[edit]

User:Nanshu has labeled File:Flag of Ryukyu.svg as a Wikipedia hoax, however he then provided three sources (from 1854, 1873, and one around the beginning of the Meiji period) that prove that the flag wasn't just made up by some random editor. He has now gone through multitudes of articles and a template with the sole edit summary of "DEL Wikipedia hoax". Even though this flag has been recorded 261 years ago as the "Ryukyu Kingdom flag", is it a "Wikipedia hoax" or should its use be restored where it was removed? ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 00:27, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Bankoku hakki zufu 萬國舶旗圖譜 by Matsui Nantai (1854),[1]
  • Naigai kishō chikyū kokumei 内外旗章地球國名 by Katayama Tsutomu (1873),[2] and
  • Naigai kishō binran 内外旗章便覧 by an unknown author (undated).[3]
  1. ^ Matsui Nantai 松居南岱 (1854). Bankoku hakki zufu 万国舶旗図譜 (in Japanese). Retrieved 2 April 2015. 
  2. ^ Katayama Tsutomu 片山勤 (1873). Naigai kishō chikyū kokumei 内外旗章地球国名 (in Japanese). Retrieved 2 April 2015. 
  3. ^ University of the Ryukyus Library. "Shin shūzō Okinawa kankei shiryō no shōkai 新収蔵沖縄関係資料の紹介" (in Japanese). Retrieved 2 April 2015. 
  • Restore - per above. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 00:27, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
    • Are you doing this simply to demonstrate that you have no talent for historiography? Go to a bookstore, pick up a book on the history of the United Stats, and you cannot find the Stars and Stripes. That's what's happening here. You stick to George H. Kerr's Okinawa: The History of an Island People (1958) even though I warned that it was seriously outdated. Hey, which page is devoted to the phantom flag?
    • So, have you checked the catalogs I cited? They are all available online. You can find the 清道 flag listed as the flag of Korea (朝鮮國旗). Do you know what this means?
    • Although you ignore this, I explained at the Commons image description page why these catalogs were unreliable. Even if you don't trust me (I guess so), what do you think about Kina Daisaku, a part-time curator at Naha City Museum of History, who was aware of the undated Naigai kishō binran and still concluded that he was unable to find contemporary sources in which the phantom flag was used as a national flag? --Nanshu (talk) 01:59, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
      • Sorry for the late response. What's wrong exactly with Kerr other than his POV of Ryukyuan pacifism? Besides, I have other sources to compliment Kerr. And none that I'm aware of (my copy is missing a few pages anyhow).
      • Yes I have, they're very interesting. And I'm guessing that the Qing flag being shown as the flag of Korea is a political statement by the author? Or do you mean that they're just wrong/ignorant? Either way, just because they got one wrong doesn't mean all of them are wrong.
      • No, I read your argument fully. For one, I'm not surprised that there aren't Okinawan sources before 1945. Another thing is, what do the "many other illustrated catalogs of flags" say about Ryukyu? And if you take the 1854 source, how would the author get "access to firsthand knowledge" on any of the flags in the catalog?
      • The reason I opened this RfC was because you removed the flag as a "Wikipedia hoax", however you've provided sources that show otherwise. Even if it wasn't a "national flag" (maybe stylization of the Shō crest), you still prove that it was not made up on Wikipedia. Removing the flag as a "hoax" is the same as removing content and calling it "vandalism". ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 02:18, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
        • First of all, you mix up two different aspects of the problem. At the Commons image description pages, I created two separate sections, "As a Wikipedia hoax" and "In search for truth." That this is a Wikipedia hoax has nothing to do with the new sources I added (the latter). By calling it a Wikipedia hoax, I'm not talking about whether this flag should be shown at Ryūkyū-related articles but about whether this incident is worth mentioning at articles like List of Wikipedia controversies and Reliability of Wikipedia. It's not unrealistic because we now have an external source that criticizes Wikipedia for spreading misinformation.
        • Leaving aside the meta-discussion, I think my point is clear. A national flag is something we can easily find in the literature. If all we can salvage after serious research is obscure references, it is not what we consider the national flag. Even if we decide to mention it in articles, we must not give undue weight.
        • That said, I will answer minor questions.
          You can find illustrated catalogs of flags not showing the phantom flag at the National Diet Library Digital Collections (e.g. [3]).
          清道 means to clear the road. The 清道 flag was flown at the front of the procession of a diplomatic mission in order to get rid of people for passage (see [4]). In the catalogs I added, you can see this flag is referred to as 國旗, which we translate as "national flag" today. Apparently, the authors of these catalogs had considerably different notions of 國旗 from us.
          Kerr's book is seriously outdated. You may think that there is no significant progress in archaeology and historiography in the last half century. That's totally wrong. Major archaeological discoveries were triggered by the construction boom after Okinawa's return to Japan in 1972. Sai Taku's edition of the Chūzan Seifu was discovered in 1972. It is a missing link between the Chūzan Seikan and Sai On's edition of the Chūzan Seifu, and we now have a far deeper understanding on how Sai On rewrote history. Anyway, what I mean by mentioning Kerr's book is that it should have mentioned the phantom flag if it was what we consider the national flag.
        • --Nanshu (talk) 16:23, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
          • I didn't mix them up, the latter contradicts the former. How can the flag be a Wikipedia hoax if 1) the flag preexists Wikipedia (and the Internet) 2) there are at least three sources that explicitly say this was the national flag of Ryukyu.
          • And I wouldn't call these sources "obscure". Also, the catalog you just provided a link to has two major problems: it also uses the 清道 flag for the flag of Korea, and it doesn't use the "phantom" flag because there is no entry for Ryukyu. Please point out the Ryukyuan flag for me, because double checking failed me.
          • No, I know a lot came out in the 60s and 70s. But again, I don't only rely on Kerr. And yes, I suppose he'd at least mention a flag. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 02:09, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
If there are only vague historical references to the flag, I think we should stop using the image for WP:RYUKYU, regardless of its factuality. Images associated with a WikiProject should be a strongly associated symbol of that topic, such as the treble clef and note for WP:MUSICIAN or the extreme deep field for WP:COSMOLOGY. How can we say that flag represents the Ryukyus when barely anyone has heard of it? I suggest something like Shuri Castle (it's the image used for 'history of Okinawa' and the Chinese Ryukyu wiki project already) or a shisa design. --Prosperosity (talk) 03:00, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
This isn't about using the flag to represent the WikiProject, it's about its use as the national flag of the Ryukyu Kingdom on Wikipedia, which Nanshu claims was never the national flag is a Wikipedia hoax and therefore should be removed entirely. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 03:24, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
Have there been any attempts to ask for input from Japanese-speaking Wikipedians on the ja:Wikipedia:Chatsubo? Especially since this is a Commons-related issue too. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:06, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
There was some discussion on the talk page of ja:琉球王国 back in 2008 [5]. Apparently the flag was on the page at that time, but it was later removed. Michitaro (talk) 01:29, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Hey, I have never claimed that the phantom flag was never the national flag. That's probatio diabolica. --Nanshu (talk) 16:23, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I rephrased it. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 22:52, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I call for third opinions. Expecting Sturmgewehr88 to use common sense is found to be fruitless.
  • Just for clarification, I have no opinion on the use of the phantom flag in the Ryukyu task force. I'm not a participant and probably will never be. I just feel that it ironically symbolizes the nature of the task force. --Nanshu (talk)
Common sense? Common sense says (after you provided sources) that the flag isn't a Wikipedia hoax, therefore it shouldn't be removed as a hoax.
I'm actually surprised that you only removed the flag from a couple dozen pages and not completely removed it from Wikipedia. But how does it symbolize "the nature" of the task force? ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 22:52, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
I notified the Japanese Wikipedia that there needs to be input from editors who are able to read and interpret the sources. WhisperToMe (talk) 03:44, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Per WP:NOR, please avoid original research. I'm happy to consider other points of view and if you've actually read the "discussion on the talk page of ja:琉球王国", you'll notice that what i said is true. In fact, no treatises in refereed academic journals have reliable opinions about the Flag of Ryukyu, and these bibliographies should not be regarded as a reliable source that can check the information. --Infinite0694 (talk) 14:19, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Sturmgewehr88 (talk · contribs) conducted mass (~100) reverts to reinstate a flag after it became clear that his proposal to do so failed to gain support from other Wikipedians. I've reported the incident at ANI. --Nanshu (talk) 06:04, 11 April 2015 (UTC) @Nanshu: here is something you might find interesting. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 00:18, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Even though Nanshu is now forumshopping, I would like someone to answer this: if the flag was claimed to be the national flag before it was uploaded to Wikipedia (i.e. did not originate here), then can it be labeled as a Wikipedia hoax? ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 17:56, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

  • Comment: We don't care if it "can be labelled" anything. Either we have reliable pre-WP sources or we don't; that's the end of it. Why is this even an RfC? Sounds like a user disciplinary issue for WP:ANI to me.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  22:18, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Articles on Japanese sojourners in the USA[edit]

I'm not sure if these fit with "Japanese Americans" or not, so I'd like to post these Japanese-language articles and see where they should go:

WhisperToMe (talk) 05:22, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Also I would like to have feedback on whether this article is relevant enough to "Hoshū jugyō kō" or if there is a better place for it:

WhisperToMe (talk) 09:21, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Membership Roll?[edit]

Hi all. I just came to the realization that the project's front page doesn't have a list of signed up members. Wasn't there a section like this, transcluded from the subpage before? Or just a figment of my false memory.

Anyeays I realized that even though two userboxes are given for the project, they are vastly different in one respect.

If you pasted the first one {{User WikiProject Japan}}

Miyajima-Torii-Modified.jpg This user is a member of WikiProject Japan.

it doesn't assign you to any wikipedian categories.

Whereas if you use the {{User WP Japan}}

Flag of Japan.svg This user participates in
WikiProject Japan

You are placed in Category:WikiProject Japan participants (and Category:Wikipedians interested in Japan). I think it might be too much labor to ping everyone who used the first user box. Do you think it all right if I modified the first template so they too get filed under the WikiProject members category?--Kiyoweap (talk) 08:47, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

@Kiyoweap: You're looking for Wikipedia:WikiProject Japan/Participants. It's linked in the first paragraph of the main project page, but perhaps we could make it a little more prominent. As for adding the category to the first userbox, it's fine by me. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 11:07, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
@Mr. Stradivarius: Thanks for pointing out "participants" subpage. I couldn't locate it for some reason. Well, since I started I'm just going to finish the job alerting the rest of the people using the user box. Thanks again.--Kiyoweap (talk) 11:13, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Since the membership roster exists, I think it might be better to not tamper with the first user box. So to the 31 or so users I contacted, please make a conscious choice of whether to switch to or add the second type user box to populate your own user name into the Category:WikiProject Japan participants. Sorry for the disturbance. --Kiyoweap
It seems logical to put the userbox in the category, to be honest. Whoever made the userbox probably wasn't aware that there was a category, or maybe just forgot. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 11:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Right now, I prefer if the 30 or so members made their own individual decisions.
The "what links here" does make it already public knowledge they declare themselves members, but considering the existence of the "nocategory=true" switch, it's quite possible they don't want to be listed.
Also weeds out non-active users. The active ones I'm expecting would take notice and make the switch.
As to code change needed I created a post at Template talk:User WikiProject Japan#Category - WikiProject Japan participants. --Kiyoweap (talk) 09:44, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Geography: Mount Katsuragi[edit]

It translated the disambiguation page for Mount Katsuragi from the Japanese, and after making various changes meant to improve, the layout ended up looking pretty chaotic. I would like someone to clean it up who is resourceful regarding such geography dab pages.
My view is the "Mount Katuragi" in the ancient sense is most significant, since it would be linked in that sense from various history and culture pages.--Kiyoweap (talk) 10:14, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

I took a look at that page, and strictly speaking I don't think it should be a disambiguation page, because unlike Japanese we don't have articles yet for any of those mountains, and we are not supposed to list red links on disambiguation pages. What I would suggest is to convert that page into an article on "Mount Katuragi", perhaps based on the content in the Remarks section. You could use that article to explain that there are several mountains with that name. – Margin1522 (talk) 21:00, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Well, perhaps I failed to get this point across in my initial post, but geography articles aren't really my forte or field of interest, so I am not really receptive to your suggestion that I myself develop this into an article proper. It will have to be an open invitation to users at large, particularly those rooted in this area of Nara/Oska, or perhaps [task force] members.
There is a bit more to write, but I'm going to continue at the Talk:Mount Katsuragi page. --Kiyoweap (talk) 18:48, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
I'll see what I can do. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:11, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
Okay, I've made (some of it was translated) one article so far: Mount Yamato Katsuragi. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 06:27, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
For Mount Izumi Katsuragi, too. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:31, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Finished Mount Naka Katsuragi. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 05:22, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Working on Minami Katsuragi, but having trouble understanding part of it. If anyone else familiar with Japanese (especially if familiar with the Lotus Sutra, Shugendō, and Japanese Buddhism) wants to help, you can see my question here. Thanks! ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:35, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
Finished Kongō Range. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:48, 22 April 2015 (UTC)


The geisha article has recently drawn the attention of some people (perhaps very young?) who don't seem to know what they're doing. It would help if some more experienced, level-headed editors kept an eye on it over the next few days. -- Hoary (talk) 14:43, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

RfC for Kenji Miyazawa[edit]

There is currently a RfC at Talk:Kenji Miyazawa#RfC: How should this be worded?. ミーラー強斗武 (StG88ぬ会話) 19:59, 26 April 2015 (UTC)