Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Child of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep. You should have purchased your milk and bread by now. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 11:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Child of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge[edit]

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A similar article about this as-yet-unborn person was previously deleted at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Child of Prince William, Duke of Cambridge. As such, this would normally be a speedy deletion candidate under WP:CSD#G4, but I am nominating it at AfD as well to get confirmation that this page should be deleted. We are not going to lose any significant information if we wait an additional week or so to create an article under this person's actual name when he or she is born. Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:05, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

strong delete I CSD'd it for the reason that all criteria in the original discussion is valid (and reading the creator's talk page it does seem misguided). Then I removed the speculative content and was left with 6 sentences, which is none too long for the mother's WP page in a subsection. Take out the list of countries and its even shorter. Should be obvious that this is deletable ASAP. I was going to AFD it but took the chance as it met CSD G4Lihaas (talk) 07:03, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. See NOTINHERITED and WP:BIO#Invalid criteria. The child (or soon-to-be-born child) of famous people does not automatically warrant a separate article. The child should be notable in their own right. Any content could be easily merged into both the parents' articles. Zzyzx11 (talk) 07:09, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Change to neutral. Other comments have convinced me that such a separate page on the child will be warranted since he/she will be notable at birth: the next person added to the list of the line of succession to the British throne. However, I am now on the fence beacause I am concerned that for the first few years of the child's life, such a separate article will devolve into a type of WP:BLP1E article, full of gossip, news and WP:CRYSTAL speculation. Wikipedia is not news, and we should not use the page to document every single thing reported by reliable sources that would normally fall under WP:NOT#NEWS, WP:BLP1E, WP:WI1E, and WP:EVENT. Again, for the first few years, the child will be only notable for one single fact and event. Most of the contently on the page right now makes it seem like the article's title should instead be Birth of the child of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. As WP:GNG states, "significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a stand-alone article" (emphasis added). Another comment below mentioned the Princess Athena of Denmark article, but that is not the same, as members of the Danish monarchy do not nearly get as much worldwide tabloid news coverage and recentism as those of the British monarchy. Zzyzx11 (talk) 00:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't think this will be too much of a worry. The articles for Prince Christian of Denmark, Catharina-Amalia, Princess of Orange, Princess Elisabeth, soon-to-be Duchess of Brabant and Princess Estelle, Duchess of Östergötland are all articles about young heirs and heirs-to-heirs that have remained relatively free of gossip. Athena isn't the best example as she has a remote chance of becoming queen of Denmark, but I think provided that experienced editors keep an eye on the article, gossip and useless cruft can be avoided. Morhange (talk) 20:01, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Is it worth discussing the deletion of the article when the child could be born any time now? Next week this time the article might be there anyway. Why not just wait and let the matter rest for a while? @ Zzyzx11: I believe your discussion about the child's notability is besides the point. The child will be notable from the time of his or her birth and probably is notable even now befor his or her birth as it will be the heir to the throne of the UK (third in line). --Maxl (talk) 08:19, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read what was said before th epost you made? "NOTINHERITED and WP:BIO#Invalid criteria". Mere fact of being BORN is not notable because notability is not inheritedLihaas (talk) 08:56, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there are exceptions to any rule. I think being third in line to the British throne is a criteria of notability and, therefore, an exception. For example, we've got the two young sons of Henry VIII by Catherine of Aragon who died in early infancy. Had they survived they'd have inherited the throne. --Maxl (talk) 18:57, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep. This is nonsense. NOTINHERITED has nothing to do with this case as the article does not concentrate on the baby's relatives, nor is the baby notable only because of his or her relatives. The article is about the world's most famous child, about a person whose mere birth is expected to bring hundreds of millions to the world economy. The subject of the article has been more than sufficiently covered by reliable sources. The article itself contains no speculation whatsoever and does not resemble the deleted page at all. The information Lihaas removed without any discussion was properly sourced and confirmed by officials - completely opposite of "speculation" and "tabloids". Surtsicna (talk) 09:14, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Read WP:GNG. And read it again. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 09:23, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I should like to delete under the spirit of WP:CRYSTAL - it should not be necessary to spell out the reasons why WP should not have articles about the yet unborn. But I agree that it is so near the likely event that there is not a lot to gain provided very tight control is taken of the article by experienced editors. Like others I am in no doubt as the notability of the child when born. Notability guidelines are just that - there are times when common sense and the intention of WP:GNG must prevail and WP must avoid making itself a laughing stock, for precisely the reason given in the Washington Times quote in the lead sentence. Notability is not inherited is often misunderstood by being taken too literally; all notability is derived ultimately from something or someone else (that is one reason for orphan articles being tagged) and any child will be in direct line of descent to the throne. --AJHingston (talk) 09:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That's the same WP:CRYSTAL that clearly states "1.Individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place". Or keep, in other words. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 10:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why I spoke of the spirit, not the letter, of WP:CRYSTAL and it would be better to discuss there whether there should be special reference to pregnancy. There is a big difference between a planned sporting event and a birth, and the things that can go wrong. --AJHingston (talk) 10:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: per WP:POLITICIAN; the child will be third in line to the throne of England and the policy allows those elected/appointed but not yet sworn in to have pages (the child will not be officially in line until birth). Seems like a wonky application of the policy, but I feel that in this case it applies as the pre-natal infant clearly passes GNG. Jeremy112233 (talk) 13:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep : While I have little interest in royal families, this surely passes WP:BASIC, WP:GNG. There is plenty of RS that consider the individual in detail. WP:NOTINHERITED does not apply: the baby is notable in herself. WP:CRYSTAL also does not apply: the article subject exists and is discussed in sources right now -it is simply still inside the mother's womb. --Cyclopia ^talk 15:08, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per above arguments. Move to her actual name when she is born and her name is revealed. Georgia guy (talk) 15:34, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. While I think creation of this article is probably a little premature, the child should certainly have an article after its birth. I wonder whether those who have cited WP:NOTINHERITED are actually being serious - this child will one day be head of state of the United Kingdom! Not might be, but, barring accidents, will be. If they are being serious, words fail me... -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: The child-to-be is notable in its own right and a lot has happened since the previous article was deleted. Incidentally we will not know the baby's name immediately when it is born (only within a couple of days thereof), so the argument to wait for that doesn't hold much water. Helen (talk) 16:48, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. I should note that I wouldn't object if an article about this child were created immediately after he or she is born and his or her name is announced. I just think that a "placeholder" article like this one is of little use. After the baby is born, nobody is going to look for an article about him or her by searching for "Child of the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge". --Metropolitan90 (talk) 16:50, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - This is not a placeholder. This is not a hypothetical entity that could or could not be -in that case, WP:CRYSTAL would apply. Embryos/fetuses/unborn children are real. That child exists right here, right now, and it is already discussed by sources. --Cyclopia ^talk 17:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I have no idea how WP:NOTINHERITED would apply in this case--this child is the eldest child of the eldest child of the eldest child of the most famous monarch in the world. Regardless of gender, this child will in all likelyhood be the future monarch of the United Kingdom and even if the monarchy fails, a pretender. This is not the child of Tom Cruise, but a member of a royal family. Their notability derives from their birth into that family. We have an article for Princess Athena of Denmark despite the remote chance of her ever ascending the Danish throne, because as a member of royal family, she is inherently notable. I would even go as far to say that this article isn't specifically about the child, but about the circumstances around the pregnancy and the child's impending birth. At any rate, he or she will be born within the next couple weeks, maybe even before this AfD is closed. Morhange (talk) 19:15, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Before I created the article I did the reseach, and as I said on the article's talkpage the day I created the article, it:

- Contains no unverifiable speculation.

- Is not about an anticipated future event, it is about an unborn child.

- Is about a subject which demonstrably already enjoys wide interest.

- Only contains predictions or speculation of future events (which hospital, etc) which is verifiable from reliable expert sources, is notable and is almost certain to take place. Bo.Clive (talk) 21:16, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Slight contradiction here--it is about the unborn child, therefore the birth taking place doesn't even matter. So your argument is stronger than you've laid out.Jeremy112233 (talk) 21:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I see the argument that we should wait until the baby's actual born, but there's absolutely nothing in Wikipedia policy to support that. What matters is that the topic receives significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject, and this topic most certainly does. Do we wait for sporting events to begin to create articles on them? Do we wait for albums to be released to create articles on them? While the fact that something hasn't happened yet can be strong evidence in favor of deletion, it isn't in itself enough.

I'm also reminded of Jimbo's comments here, in that topics such as these largely fall under our systemic bias. While my personal interests are about as divergent from tabloid sensationalization as you can get, the objective part of me has long wondered why we don't have articles on, for instance, notable romantic relationships. If Wikipedia were written by a random cross-section of the English-speaking population, this would almost certainly be the case. So, in a broader context, I see this article's existence as a positive step in that direction. But even if you disagree with that, I think WP:42 is fairly clearly passed here. — PinkAmpers &^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 23:41, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I gotta say, I love that we have an article about someone who isn't even born yet. Part of me wants to vote keep just because of the absurdity of it all. Honestly, it is already sort of absurd that we have articles about infants who are royalty. This is just delicious. You know what, screw it, Keep per WP:LOLWHATEVER.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 03:45, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:GNG. The Duchess's pregnancy has been the subject of significant media coverage. Pburka (talk) 03:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:N which roughly says "a topic is presumed to be notable is it has been the subject of numerous independent reliable sources" and histmerge the contents of Child of Prince William, Duke of Cambridge into it.--Laun chba ller 09:02, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep obviously, and what a colossal waste of time; proposing deletion of an article so it can be recreated, in the nominator's own words, in "a week or so". Joefromrandb (talk) 12:37, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Of course this is one of the sillier articles ever on WP (an article on an unborn child? Really?) Of course the child is only notable because of its parents (who themselves are only notable because she is married to him and he's only notable because of his parents). But as long as we have this medieval institution of royalty around, people will have this (rather unhealthy) fixation with royal families (who nowadays really don't do much of any real importance) and write articles in otherwise respectable newspapers about unborn children, gossip about little kids, etc. And, unfortunately, that makes these fetuses, children, and adults notable under WP:GNG. This need for royal fables apparently is something inherently human (remember that the French Revolution -supposed to make an end to monarchy for once and ever- ended up with putting an emperor on the throne...) --Randykitty (talk) 13:28, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The page will just re-created in a week or two because the child will be born... The page satisfies WP policies WP:GCG. Nford24 (Want to have a chat?) 14:17, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep: "The page will just re-created in a week or two because the child will be born...". Waltor (talk) 14:55, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly! And then we'll have a baby doing what babies do well (crying, sleeping, filling diapers, being cute, etc) and it will be plenty notable because of its notable parents who are notable because... Etc. Newspapers will all fall over themselves to cover these exciting events and GNG will be met even more than it already is. --Randykitty (talk) 15:06, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Look at fr:Wikipédia:Le Bistro/5 juillet 2013#Ils sont fous ces anglais ! 129.102.254.253 (talk) 15:35, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Heh. Some very good arguments raised for inclusion there, actually... not that any more were needed. :P I'm happy to translate, though, if anyone's curious. (The French also have something more of an "academic" bias than En.WP... I seem to recall them deleting some page on a rather notable reality star simply because they didn't think reality stars were important. But the great thing about Wikifederalism is that we don't have to worry about all that stuff.) — PinkAmpers &^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 05:22, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy keep per above. No point in dragging this out further. IgnorantArmies 16:00, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Seems reasonable to have this preliminary version of the article in preparation for the event. It will be moved and suitably modified on the day itself, provided all goes well. Mathsci (talk) 16:39, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Snow Keep --Gilderien Chat|List of good deeds 19:13, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Before even being born, the child has already inspired changes in law in multiple Commonwealth realms (see Perth Agreement). On that alone, this child is already notable despite still being in the womb; it should be no problem moving this article to the child's proper name once he/she is born AND has a name (that name might NOT be announced immediately). --RBBrittain (talk) 23:37, 5 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Crystal Bol work. The Banner talk 11:31, 6 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.