Talk:Sons of Noah

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Frivolous cite requests[edit]

I removed as frivolous cite requests for the fact that "many" Christians, Jews and Muslims adhere to Biblical and/or Quranic outlines of history. Whoever wrote that it was "only a few dozen" in the edit summary needs to get out more - he's obviously never been to a Middle Eastern country and probably never ventured beyond his own little world, if he seriously thinks it's "a few dozen"! Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 00:48, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Where did Asians/Orientals come from?[edit]

To my understanding Japheth = white. Shem = semitic. Ham = black. Where do Asians and Native Americans fit in? 97.118.63.76 (talk) 08:09, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Great question, and I have started a mini-section below with possible answers...--Gniniv (talk) 08:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Josephus certainly had some Indians coming from Shem. The Bible only mentions where the nearby people came from. And, of course, it's not as simple as that anyway. The descendants of each son would intermarry, so most people will be descendants of two or three of them. And the Hamites are certainly not all black - they include the Canaanites, Hittites etc, and North Africans. People with the same ancestors do not necessarily have the same colour of skin.86.147.51.45 (talk) 18:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Good points, the reality is probably that complex due to ancient intermarriage...--Gniniv (talk) 08:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Japheth = Indo-European languages. Shem = Semitic languages. Ham = All other Afro-Asiatic languages. So if you're not descended from a group that historically speaks an Indo-European or an Afro-Asiatic language you're not descended from Noah according to some "Biblical scholars".184.96.242.187 (talk) 16:44, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Possible answers, Shem as the Father of Eastern (through Joktan) and Western (through Peleg) Asia[edit]

I have been researching the genealogies covered in the Sons of noah article. Has anyone considered seeing if any sources have been devoted to which of the Sons of Noah was the father of the Far-eastern (Oriental) peoples? I find it intriguing to consider some of Shem's descendants like Joktan as possible candidates. We may want to establish consensus with the editors of articles like Ancient China, Records of the Grand Historian, History of China, and the Yellow Emperor--Gniniv (talk) 08:19, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
I found a source from a researcher who is supposedly looking in to this (See Origin of Sinitic Peoples from the Sons of Noah?.--Gniniv (talk) 08:35, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
I am interested in pursuing this further, any comments?--Gniniv (talk) 08:35, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
I believe most researchers consider Native Americans to be Asian in heritage, so they could possibly have come from Joktan's lines as well...--Gniniv (talk) 08:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm sure you know already about the prohibition against conducting Original research. That pretty much limits us to quoting from published sources that may have already addressed these questions. Around 100 years ago, it was popular to connect the Chinese with the Assyrians (Asshur), but that line of thinking was "discouraged" after World War 2, and so is rarely found any more. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:12, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
I agree, this topic merely hasn't been covered in the article, and I was curious if there are any sources that have researched this. The source I gave seems to be from a Chinese website, so it could possibly offer a fresh perspective on the topic, considering that most of the sources in the article come from Western thinktanks...--Gniniv (talk) 21:49, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
The source I gave seems to offer an explanation that refutes the typical classification of Joktan as the father of Assyria...--Gniniv (talk) 21:50, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
I just gleaned some info from the Talk:Records of the Grand Historian--Gniniv (talk) 00:04, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Til is correct, and Gniniv shouldn't be asking on other talk pages for help with original research. Dougweller (talk) 05:40, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Gotcha! I won't won't ask for any original research, only prior sources....--Gniniv (talk) 06:28, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

If you had looked at Google Books, you would have found Joseph Needham's Science and Civilization in China. This is a Jesuist figment, including a supposed Egyptian colony in China and a relationship between Hebrew, Egyptian, and Chinese. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

If it's of any assistance, the "Mormons" have their own view on the origin of Native Americans. I'm not sure specifically what they attribute to which son of Noah but they consider the Native Americans to be "Jacobites" I believe which would probably make them descendants of Shem. 184.96.228.177 (talk) 16:06, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Sources[edit]

I removed one as I think it is clearly not a reliable source. It was restored, so I've brought it up at WP:RSN, although once removed, I believe it was the editor who wanted it replaced who should have done that, reliability is not the default position for a source. I also removed another unreliable source, and if the other editor who added that wants it restored they should go to RSN. Dougweller (talk) 13:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

East asians = Japheth[edit]

There are numerous books by Christian theologists that mentions that Shem = Caucasians, Japheth = Mongloids (Turks etc) & Ham = Africans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.103.205.27 (talk) 13:32, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Whether they have actual evidence for it is another story...--Novus Orator 06:02, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Many credible theologians and archaeologists don't even consider Mongoloid and Negroid people to be Adamic. 184.96.247.138 (talk) 08:08, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Riiiiiight... and which sect are these "credible theologians" repping? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:26, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Japheth = Indo-European languages. Shem = Semitic languages. Ham = All other Afro-Asiatic languages. So if you're not descended from a group that historically speaks an Indo-European or an Afro-Asiatic language you're not descended from Noah according to some "Biblical scholars". 184.96.236.163 (talk) 18:41, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
Okay then, can you name any scholars or theologians who actually teach that? If so, we could look at attributing that POV to them in the article. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:04, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Old Map from Restoration Library[edit]

This important map http://restorationlibrary.org/library_restoration/AOBH/AOBH_016_A.jpg can explain track the Sons of Noah and this map http://www.jesus-kashmir-tomb.com/sitebuilder/images/Map_to_Graves-691x418.jpg also support the future research. Bocah anon (talk) 15:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Do you have any peer-reviewed material by modern, accredited scientists who actually have kept track of the past century of anthropological and genetic studies, and who have given up on nationalistic biases? Because the material you're presenting doesn't look like that. You have a map from a Sunday school in 1880 (before any real study of genetics had begun, and at a time when all anthropological study had nationalistic, even racist, biases). That doesn't amount to any sort of evidence. Ian.thomson (talk) 13:47, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm seeing this same conversation on several different talkpages, but I'll answer here. True, the 1880 map may not accurately reflect current thought in Biblical studies, on the geographic interpretations of Biblical names like Gomer, Magog and all the rest (the Sons of Noah), but since most of these topics are primarily concerned with historiography (not so much genetics), the map obviously could be of some historiographic interest. By the way, as late as the 1970s or so I saw Bibles with a map in the back that wasn't that much updated from the 1880 version! Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:52, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

I am modern accredited scientist (explain latter). Please be patient and DO NOT EDIT my words. Bocah anon (talk) 15:15, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

If you're trying to "prove" the evidence for your theories on the Sons of Noah, Wikipedia is the wrong place for you. Please read our policy on Original research. We only can describe hypotheses that have already been published and peer reviewed, and citations are a crucial way to verify this. The map may be on topic, but we need an acceptable source for any conjecture about Javanese or Kashmiri folklore connecting with Shem. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:40, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
There is one Wikimedia project that does allow Original research to be published, called v: Wikiversity... I haven't looked at it lately, but it may be something you could try. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:42, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Table of nations[edit]

Most of the contents of this section is unsourced extra-Biblical 'identifications' and the like, and has been tagged as needing sourcing. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 07:34, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Which is like a nuisance over-use of tagging, since all of the Sons of Noah already have their own main articles dealing with the sources for their identification, and this page is only like a summary of them all. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:26, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Not when the majority of these "own main articles" appear to be un/poorly/unreliably-sourced, and/or not support the claims made here. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 11:45, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
No, it really is a nuisance, and clearly you are using an overabundance of cite request tags. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 12:41, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
To compensate for an under-abundance of citations to reliable sources confirming the information. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 12:43, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Fruitiness[edit]

A lot of material on this page is fruity and derived from very biased religious sources. The ethnic schema of Genesis 10 has been seriously attempted from the Semitic and Egyptian languages. The Egyptian derivation is not exactly controversial. Please stop vandalizing the edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.231.240.28 (talk) 22:58, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Wonderful, if the Egyptian derivations are not controversial, you should have no problem finding reliable sources to attribute them to. Otherwise, I'm afraid they'll have to be removed as original research. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 23:40, 15 June 2011 (UTC)


I've given you some links on your talk page. It isn't vandalising removing unsourced or incorrectly sourced material. Sources have to specifically discuss the subject or else it is what we refer to as synthesis -- WP:SYN. I'm sure this article could use your help in removing bias and reaching what we call a neutral point of view, WP:NPOV. Dougweller (talk) 15:44, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Name change[edit]

Sons of Noah is not accurate per title, as the page deals with not his sons but grandchildren etc., as the article opens, Noah had but Eight family members. I propose a name change to The Seventy nations that more accurately summarizes the current article's content--Marecheth Ho'eElohuth (talk) 22:54, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Descendants of Noah (which currently redirects here) would be more descriptive to a general audience. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 07:19, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Rename[edit]

This topic is called the Table of Nations, not the Sons of Noah. PiCo (talk) 12:04, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Togarmah < Tilgarimmu[edit]

today Gürün in Sivas Province, Turkey Böri (talk) 11:03, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Where do Aboriginal Australians and Papuans fit in?[edit]

Just curious, or do you pretend they don't exist? 184.96.242.187 (talk) 16:44, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you understand the purpose of this page. You should read WP:TALK, but in a nutshell, it is mostly just for discussing sources, or potential improvements to the article text. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 16:59, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

A Couple Suggestions for Improvements[edit]

(1) The Byzantine Greek historian George Syncellus (8th century) in his Chronography provided a fairly complete listing of tribes and ethnic groups which he believed were descended from the individuals named in the Table of Nations. It could be an interesting exercise to compare his list to those found in Josephus, Hippolytus, Jerome and Isidore of Seville and note any important differences found. Although Syncellus wrote somewhat later than the other authors mentioned here, he did have access to numerous earlier sources, so his works remain an important source on early eastern Christian biblical interpretations concerning these names. Unfortunately his work is only freely available on the Web in Byzantine Greek and in Latin translation: http://books.google.ca/books?id=VNUFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA91


(2) If anyone has a fair bit of time on their hands and access to the book On the Reliability of the Old Testament by K.A. Kitchen (Eerdmans 2003), a lot of information on the relationship of the names of the descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth named in the Table of Nations and the tribes and ethnic groups associated with them can be found in the footnotes on pages 592-595. These footnotes cite numerous references to peer-reviewed historical/archaeological papers and other academic sources. Citing these references in the main article (and thereby replacing several dozen "citation needed" tags with actual references) would certainly do much to improve its quality. Kitchen's book is available in Google Books "preview" mode, although most of the pertinent pages are not part of the preview. However, I did manage to access pg. 594 (albeit which pages are accessible may vary from one Google Books user to another). Here's a Google Books link for anyone who may wish to use this resource to further improve the article: http://books.google.ca/books?id=Kw6U05qBiXcC&pg=PA594

Mike Agricola (talk) 23:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)