Wikipedia:Featured article review/Albert Kesselring/archive1

Albert Kesselring

Albert Kesselring (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Albert Kesselring/archive1

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Notified: WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Germany, WikiProject Italy, WikiProject History, WikiProject Military History, WikiProject Law, WikiProject Politics,WikiProject Jewish History, Hawkeye7

Review section

Nomination statement

The article was promoted to FA status in 2009; it does not reflect the most recent scholarship nor FA best practices. The criteria that are the focus of this nomination are: (1.b) comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context; (1.c) well-researched: it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature; claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources; (1.d) neutral: it presents views fairly and without bias; and (2.a) lead: prepares the reader for the detail in the subsequent sections.

FAs are expected to maintain required standards and this article has not kept up with the times. To start with, the lead contains material that is not expanded on in the article, such as: Nicknamed 'Smiling Albert' by the Allies and 'Uncle Albert' by his troops, he was one of the most popular generals of World War II with the rank and file. This is not discussed further in the article, and is also a selective reading of Kerstin von Lingen, Kesselring's Last Battle, 2009, p. 16, which goes on to state:

During the 1950s, this picture of Kesselring ['Smiling Al', a general with a common touch], which had been presented at his trial, was seized on and embellished by a range of memoirists. Yet when one considers the bloody assaults on whole villages during the Wehrmacht retreat in the summer of 1944, the picture of the 'good general' painted during the trial seems like a travesty.

The omission of Lingen's conclusion results in a non-neutral presentation starting with the lead. Some of the sources used are dated and / or questionable. Specifically, the article utilises Kesselring's memoirs published in 1955 (30+ citations); this source is not independent, not secondary, and in several important respects not reliable. In another example, a 1954 review of Kesselring's memoirs is used to claim that "the memoirs formed a valuable resource, informing military historians on topics such as the background to the invasion of the Soviet Union". This is neither neutral nor comprehensive, as the article neglects later evaluations that connect Kesselring's works to the myth of the clean Wehrmacht (e.g. here: Reckonings: Legacies of Nazi Persecution). In any case, the source is being used selectively & some of the content fails verification. To start with, the review is more sarcastic than glowing, and it opens thus:

To judge by their memoirs, German generals led sheltered lives. Most of them agree that under twelve years of Hitler rule they saw no evil, spoke none and did none. The latest to proclaim his innocence is 69-year-old Field Marshal Albert Kesselring. Loyal enough by his own admission to "enjoy Hitler's unreserved confidence," Kesselring also proved affable and adjustable enough after the war to assist U.S. Army historians and retain his wartime nickname of "Smiling Al."

Note that the generic "military historians" in the article is actually "U.S. Army historians", from the US Army Historical Division that employed former Wehrmacht generals after the war; the review does not mention the attack on the Soviet Union either. This appears to be OR based on FA nominator's reading of the memoirs.

Further, the article's portrayal of Kesselring's does not align with recent scholarship. For example, the article states: Kesselring became one of Nazi Germany's most skilful commanders. Compare with Robert Citino, The Wehrmacht Retreats, 2012, p. 272: "Kesselring presided over the loss of 415,000 men (...). Even as a limited campaign of delay and attrition, the German defence of Italy was an utter failure." The material, when cited to Kesselring, is often self-serving. Take this passage, for example:

On 11 May 1944 General Sir Harold Alexander, commanding the Allied Armies in Italy, launched Operation Diadem, which finally broke through the Gustav Line and forced the Tenth Army to withdraw. In the process, a gap opened up between the Tenth and Fourteenth Armies, threatening both with encirclement. For this failure, Kesselring relieved von Mackensen of his command, replacing him with General der Panzertruppe Joachim Lemelsen. Fortunately for the Germans, Lieutenant General Mark W. Clark, commander of the U.S. Fifth Army, obsessed with the capture of Rome, failed to take advantage of the situation and the Tenth Army was able to withdraw to the next line of defence, the Trasimene Line, where it was able to link up with the Fourteenth Army and then conduct a fighting withdrawal.

Citino, Wehrmacht's Last Stand, 2017, debunks or contextualises this narrative:

• Citino begins by discussing Kesselring's intelligence failures ahead of Diadem: "More generally, Kesselring completely missed the dramatic redeployment of the Allied forces in Italy"; Wehrmacht was "caught napping", pp. 99-100
• Details a bungled response: "Throughout it all, we cannot say that Kesselring was particularly active in arranging countermeasures. His initial reaction to Diadem was disbelief."
• In re: Kesselring blaming a subordinate for the predicament that the Wehrmacht had found itself in: "In fact, nothing would have helped", p. 103.
• Citino offers a more nuanced analysis of Mark Clark's dash to Rome, describing it as a "non-event of 'Clark's blunder'," because the Germans did not seem to have noticed it at all.

Citino writes about Kesselring's account: he "spends much of his memoirs criticising operational decisions on both sides (except his own, which he deems to be invariably correct)." Kesselring's writings themselves have become an object of historiographical analysis; this is not reflected in the article, not meeting the requirement for being comprehensive and placing the subject in proper context. Parts of the article reproduce the Wehrmacht myth, and Kesselring's self-portrayal brings to mind tenets of the Lost Cause of the Confederacy:

• It left the burden of preventing the Allied evacuation of Dunkirk to the air force...
• Kesselring felt that much more could have been accomplished if he had had ...
• Kesselring was well aware that while this force was large enough to stop the Allies from simply marching in[to Italy]...

No, a war that one starts is not a "burden" and Kesselring was not protecting hearth and home in Italy either; it was an occupied country. Citino 2012, The Wehrmacht Retreats, p. 281 cautions: "We need to write the history of the war year 1943 with a complete absence of romance. The Wehrmacht was not defending the fatherland. It was fighting to hold far-flung conquests it had made in a brutal war of aggression--the very definition of ill-gotten gains."

Where the article does make use of recent scholarship, cherrypicked citations and OR sometimes result in a distorted representation; see the 'Smiling Al' example from the lead above. Another example, in re: the German Operation Axis: Italy now effectively became an occupied country, as the Germans poured in troops. Italy's decision to switch sides created contempt for the Italians among both the Allies and Germans, which was to have far-reaching consequences. The last cite is out-of-context and OR/SYNTH. In the context of post-war prosecution of war criminals, Lingen, p. 81 discusses the "deep contempt felt, especially in military quarters, for Italy's decision to 'change sides' in 1943. The Italian protest [about not being allowed a judge at Kesselring's trial] fell on deaf ears". Lingen does not mention the German reaction, does not equate the Allied contempt with the German murderous actions in disarming the Italian army, nor talks about unspecified consequences. Further discussion of Operation Axis is likewise not comprehensive nor balanced.

The message one takes away here and from the rest of 1943/44 narrative is that atrocities were committed, but Kesselring had nothing to do with them directly. The article does not mention Kesselring's support for National Socialism, his silence on the ejection of Jewish soldiers from the armed forces, and loyalty to Hitler; see Lingen pp. 23, 24 & 27, respectively. Lingen's conclusions that Kesselring "created a myth focused on himself (a myth that resonated during the 1950s) and saw himself as the victim", p. 29, is not reflected in the article.

Here is a sampling of prior discussions where similar concerns were brought up:

• 2016: Talk:Albert Kesselring#Third-party sources needed
• 2018: Talk:Albert Kesselring#Featured article review
• 2019: Talk:Albert Kesselring#Feb 2019 edit

I have attempted to resolve the issues by editing the article to add sources and remove Kesselring's self-serving POV. However, most of my edits were reverted on the grounds that "Tweaking the wording is not acceptable. The wording has been carefully reviewed...". Based on the inability to resolve the issues of sourcing, neutrality, and context, and after discussing with the FA nominator [1], I'm bringing the article to community review. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:08, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Featured article review

I do not agree that the article does not reflect the most recent scholarship nor FA best practices, but am willing to workshop the issues you raise. I choose to start with the part about Operation Diadem. This issue here is how good a general Kesselring was. I have not read Citino's books; I was under the impression that he wrote popular histories and did not discuss logistics. I have asked the university library to acquire Wehrmacht's Last Stand. In the meantime, I do have a copy of the most recent book on Kesselring, Andrew Sangster's Field-Marshal Kesselring: Great Commander or War Criminal? (2015), based on his PhD thesis (which I also have). In a nutshell, Sangster's thesis is that it is not that Kesselring was so great, but that his opponents, Alexander and Clark, were such poor generals. Neither enjoys a great reputation. Germany and the Second World War (Vol VIII, pp. 1150-1151) does not support the claim of a German intelligence failure, and this seems unlikely when everyone knew that after two attempts, the Allies would make a third the break the Gustav Line. On the other hand, there is no doubt that Kesselring was caught off-balance by the landings at Anzio, having committed his reserves to the Garigliano front, which was precisely what Clark wanted him to do. Germany and the Second World War notes that Kesselring was caught off-guard by the rapid French advance through difficult terrain. It also says: " The American general [Clark]'s ego-centric coup saved the German Tenth Army, at least temporarily" (p. 1153), citing both German and British sources. The text therefore aligns with the current consensus among historians. It could be expanded though. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:49, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Comment. The article contains a significant amount of POV which downplays his status as a war criminal.

Von Lingen describes the post-war situation very persuasively like this "After the war the Federal government bought the release of their war criminals including Kesselring". "In return for Kesselring's death sentence being commuted and release on "health grounds", the Federal government received enough support within Germany to begin making a military contribution to the defence of Western Europe". Veterans began using Kesselring to determine a new narrative of the past that absolved Kesselring of responsibility for his war crimes". The British government, concerned with the growing Cold War, released Kesselring in order to encourage the Federal government to join the European Defence Council and NATO. The British decided releasing a few "iconic" war criminals was a price worth paying for the support of West Germany.

The article using exactly the same source instead says this;

The death verdict against Kesselring unleashed a storm of protest in the United Kingdom. Former British Prime Minister Winston Churchill immediately branded it as too harsh and intervened in favour of Kesselring. Field Marshal Alexander, then Governor General of Canada, sent a telegram to Prime Minister Clement Attlee in which he expressed his hope that Kesselring's sentence would be commuted. "As his old opponent on the battlefield", he stated, "I have no complaints against him. Kesselring and his soldiers fought against us hard but clean." Alexander had expressed his admiration for Kesselring as a military commander as early as 1943. In his 1961 memoirs Alexander paid tribute to Kesselring as a commander who "showed great skill in extricating himself from the desperate situations into which his faulty intelligence had led him". Alexander's sentiments were echoed by Lieutenant General Sir Oliver Leese, who had commanded the British Eighth Army in the Italian campaign. In a May 1947 interview, Leese said he was "very sad" to hear of what he considered "British victor's justice" being imposed on Kesselring, an "extremely gallant soldier who had fought his battles fairly and squarely". Lord de L'Isle, who had been awarded the Victoria Cross for gallantry at Anzio, raised the issue in the House of Lords. Szzuk (talk) 10:09, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

The two passages are talking about very different things. The latter is about the imposition of the death penalty; the former is about Kesselring's release from prison. The latter is entirely about the British POV; the former is where it intersects the German one. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:40, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Kirsten von Lingen says this about the death sentence in Hitler’s Military Elite in Italy and the Question of “Decent War” (2015):

However, Kesselring’s sentence was later commuted to life imprisonment, partly owing to the eruption of political controversy in London, led by former prime minister Winston Churchill and supported by Field Marshal Harold Alexander. Numerous English politicians deplored "British victors’ justice," church leaders preached reconciliation, and senior British officers raised their voices to praise Kesselring’s military skill. They were all given plenty of media coverage, thus creating the British version of the "upright and fair Italian theater of war." In addition, these men triggered a debate on the very purpose of war crimes trials—a bitter debate that continued to rage in England until Kesselring’s release in 1952. It showed the British victory in court to be a Pyrrhic one, at least with respect to memory politics.

References

• Nom's comment: The perception that Robert Citino writes popular histories is not correct. Citino specialises in the operational history of the Wehrmacht; he has held a number of academic positions and is a practising military historian who publishes with a university publisher, University Press of Kansas, same as Lingen. To anyone interested in Citino's work, I can recommend his lectures on Youtube, such as on Wehrmacht's campaigns in 1943: "Fighting a Lost War". His writing style is equally engaging.

• I've obtained copies of the two books of his in question. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:27, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

On Szzuk observation, I also found that Lingen is used selectively and with an apologist bend; the book does not leave this impression at all. I already cited two examples: "Smiling Albert" in the lead and the treatment of the 1943 disarmament of the Italian army, Operation Axis (see #Nomination statement). Another example from the article:

The trials were held under the Royal Warrant of 18 June 1945, thus under British Military Law. The decision put the trials on a shaky legal basis, as foreign nationals were being tried for crimes against foreigners in a foreign country.

References

The language in the article suggests that there was something improper about the trials or that perhaps they were illegitimate. Lingen details several challenges and questions to be resolved (pp. 73-74), but page 73 does not leave the impression of the trial being on a "shaky legal basis". The source is again being misread. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:34, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Von Lingen says:

The Royal Warrant issued on June 14, 1945, established military courts and laid down the rules of procedure. But it proved more difficult than anticipated to legitimize the jurisdiction of Allied courts, for the legal basis for trying military commanders and commanders-in-chief was also subject to dispute. Which military penal codes should apply - the German ones in force at the time the crimes were committed, that of the country where the crimes took place, or the British one?

Von Lingen, Kesselring's Last Battle, p. 73

I think the article fairly summaries the text. It also makes it clear that crimes were committed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:03, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

"Smiling Albert" was a name given by the Allies on account of the fact that he was always smiling in the pictures they had of him. (Regrettably, he isn't smiling in any of the pictures in the article.) Given the circumstances, I don't think it was intended as a complement, and likely played to the wartime stereotype of the arrogant German general. You're quite right that it should also be in the body of the article; it will be an action item. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:03, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Kesselring was only responsible for the 1943 disarmament in southern Italy. All I could find in his area was the shooting of Ferrante Gonzaga; but if you have another incident, it can be included. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:03, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. The POV is being supported by the 20+ primary refs and a misreading of Lingen. There are eulogies such as the block quote beginning "Furthermore, we knew that in command of these forces was Field Marshal Albert Kesselring, one of the ablest officers in the Hitler armies." Szzuk (talk) 15:27, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

  It was not a eulogy, it was written by his opponent, Mark W. Clark, and was written in 1950, while Kesselring was not only still alive, but still in prison. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:19, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. In 1937 he was in charge of the Luftwaffe and he cancelled the long range ural bomber program. The lack of a strategic bomber was a major fiasco. This isn't noted, instead the article argues he wasn't really responsible. Szzuk (talk) 10:07, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

  Have you got a good source for this? I originally wrote: Like many ex-Army officers, he tended to see air power in the tactical role, providing support to land operations. He rejected strategic bombing and cancelled the Ural bomber. The current text was written by Dapi89, who knows more about the subject of Luftwaffe doctrine. In what way was the bomber program a fiasco, and what was Kesselrinmg's role? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:20, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

• Comment Unfortunately my institution does not have access to this source but it looks relevant to this discussion: https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789004363762/B9789004363762_016.xml AugusteBlanqui (talk) 12:12, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

  Nor mine, but I have asked them to consider purchasing it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:27, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

• They got it for me! Looks very interesting. I will be reading it this week. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:15, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

A few comments

I see serious problems with neutrality, some problems with the writing, and in the few cases where I checked the sources, more problems.

• "At the age of 48, he...", this is essentially self-praise translated into Wikipedia's voice. Drmies (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

  Well, we made a big thing about it in the articles on Ernie King, Bill Halsey and John McCain Sr. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:57, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• "Like many ex-Army officers..." contains way too much irrelevant stuff (and extraneous detail is found in other place; this is possibly accretion since 2009, I don't know). Drmies (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

  I'm always loath to remove additions that other editors think are important. In this case, I think it is relevant; it talks of the dictrine of the Luftwaffe, how it differed from that of English-speaking Air Forces, and the influence that ex-Army officers like Kesselring had. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:01, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• Kesselring himself "would be shot down"? The war is over y'all: he "was shot down". Drmies (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

  Corrected this one - I was leaving the big ticket items for later in the review. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:57, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• "Kesselring was able to fly solo over the front in his Focke-Wulf Fw 189." -- it sounds like Cary Grant going out on the town, in Monte Carlo or so
• "Flying his Fieseler Fi 156 Storch to a meeting," Oh! he got a new set of wheels
• "For the Battle of Gazala, Rommel divided his command in two..." paragraph doesn't become relevant to Kesselring until halfway through. Drmies (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

  Yes, the article has lots of bits where the importance becomes clear later. Otherwise I would have to jump back and forth in the chronology. The bits mentioned above about his replacement of Mackensen with Lemelsen, and Allied attitudes towards the Italians pertain to later in the article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:57, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• "The Allied invasion of Sicily..." is way too full of insignificant military detail about what plane killed what boat or whatever. Drmies (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

  This can be trimmed back. Will mark as an action item. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:57, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• "Kesselring returned to Sicily by flying boat on 16 July..." more new wheels!
• "On the Greek island of Kefalonia – outside Kesselring's command – some 5,000 Italian troops of the 33 Mountain Infantry Division Acqui were massacred." Why is this in here? if it is outside of his command, why mention it? Or is it here to suggest that some other dude was much worse than this dude, who so far has only had one Italian commander shot? Drmies (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

  I don't think this is a well-known incident, and goes to what k.e.coffman was talking about. I didn't want to soft-peddle Operation Axis. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:57, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• "The Luftwaffe scored a notable success ..." (in the bombing by those Stukas of that port): why is that in here? Drmies (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

  Three things: (1) another reminder that Kesselring is an Air Force field marshal; (2) a refute of the claim that he fought a purely defensive campaign; and (3) demonstrates that his intelligence wasn't always bad. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:57, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• The entire "Actions affecting population and cultural objects" section reads like hagiography. In fact, it reads as if the Nazis are concerned to a great extent with preserving Italy's treasures, while the Allies just go in and bomb the shit out of Rome. I don't doubt they bombed Rome fifty times, but the little footnote, note 5 (which, sad to say, actually constitutes editorial commentary), indicates that the whole "open city" thing (which isn't even ascribed to Kesselring other than by "he supported it") can be seen as a ruse as well. (and there is way too much material on the events in Italy in 1943). Drmies (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
  • That's not all, though, in that paragraph. I wondered about the source of the approbatory "...as far as he was able, attempted...", whether it came out of his memoirs. The note is to Fisher's Casino to the Alps. Whether that source is completely acceptable (it is, after all, a publication by the US Armed Forces, and even an impressive editorial board doesn't mean that one can't question to which extent they participated in the well-known myth making) or not is one thing, but surely any editor can see that the paragraph I just pointed at is not found on p. 290 of that book: the only thing there is the destruction of buildings on either side of the Ponte Vecchio. And this is not unimportant, given content and tenor of these paragraphs. Drmies (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

    This is indeed a major issue, with multiple aspects. The German record on preserving cultural artefacts has to include the theft of artworks by Göring and others. Failure to adequately protect cultural objects is a war crime. It is also true that several times as many deaths were caused by Allied bombing as by German and Italian reprisals. I deliberately didn't mention this, but I guess we need to. (Kesselring denied knowledge of the theft of artworks, but not of the final solution; his mention of often flying over Dachau was removed by another editor as non-neutral.) This goes again to the treatment of Italy as not being an Ally, which is how Kesselring escaped being executed. I'll admit the open city footnote is a bit of an editorial by my Italian collaborator, but it was a war crime to bombard an undefended city. Kesselring was accused of this, and it also goes to the argument about other bombings. The American defence was that there were armament factories in Rome. I will mark removal of the editorial as an action item. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:57, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

The Open City was a sincere initiative that was pushed by the Pope Pius XII, but the concept is not widely understood. It allows for troops to pass through the city. (The Allies were happy about this, as they expected to occupy Rome.) The Americans were very sensitive about Rome, and there was an Allied agreement at Quebec in May 1943 that it should not be bombed without mutual consent, but the British were opposed to the concept from the start. Of course, the British were far more enthusiastic about the idea of knocking Italy out of the war. After Badoglio unilaterally declared Rome an Open City on 14 September 1943, Eisenhower ordered all bombing to halt while the Combined Chiefs considered the matter. The Americans and British could not agree. I have incorporated more material on this into the article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:10, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, I think I've seen enough: non-neutral and sometimes tendentious writing and at least some examples of poor sourcing. But the kicker is this: Hawkeye7, who should know better, restores the "jolly uncle Albert" to the lead, when the "Later life" section basically shows an unrepentant Nazi who wipes his behind with the orders of the government nextdoor, continues to support the myth of a clean German army, and on top of it defends the Marzabotto massacre. That OUR article calls him happy popular Uncle Albert, touring Europe in an assortment of airplances, and leaves the fact that he was, in fact, an unrepentant Nazi in the very bottom of the article, that is clear enough. I do not think this qualifies as an FA, but one could make some immediate improvement by undoing Hawkeye's unwise revert, to return some sense of neutrality to the lead. Drmies (talk) 00:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

If that's the impression you got from reading the article, I think I did pretty well. The term "smiling Albert" is commonly used for Kesselring; almost every reference I have refers to it. (Some mistakenly thought that it was a German monicker rather than an Allied one, so I was asked to correct that impression.) I tried to refute the "clean hands" myth by including details of massacres committed by each branch. Kesselring's administrative authority really only extended to the Heer and the Luftwaffe; the SS and the Herman Göring Division were outside his control. However, he was loath to admit that, and the Yamashita case makes it uncertain in any case. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:57, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

The impression that I got was indeed that it's not an FA. Is that what you succeeded in? What a strange comment. Here's the thing: no. I am sure that every reference you have also refers to him as a killer, guilty of mass murder. It was your choice to put "Uncle Albert" in the lead, in the very first paragraph. One of the hallmarks of POV is to present a fact out of context at the expense of others, with the goal to skew the reader's perception. You have done so successfully. And I think I have indicated well enough that throughout the article there are bits and pieces whose purpose seems to be to deflect blame in various ways. Certainly it's enough for a POV tag. Drmies (talk) 03:05, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

"Smiling Albert" was in the very first paragraph of the lead long before I started editing Wikipedia. [2] I corrected it by adding the Uncle Albert reference. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:49, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. The article uses the nickname the allies gave him, "Smiling Albert", to convey the meaning he was a jovial character. He was given that nickname because he had a nervous tic that turned the corners of his mouth up uncontrollably. It was an insult, and using an insult to present to the reader the exact opposite is egregious POV. The article is full of it. No work has been done since the start of this FAR. Szzuk (talk) 20:50, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

  Patience. I am working on it. There has been a search for new material, and I have read through Citino's books, as recommended by Koffman. I will be making a series of changes over the next two weeks. My internet access is limited at the moment. The article does not use the nickname to convey that he was a jovial character (not that it would make a difference if he was). There was no intention to convey that it was not intended as an insult. I'm really running out of patience with writers who have misunderstood the nickname as being one applied by his own troops instead of the American media. The text needs to be and will be strengthened. Also: a citation for the nervous tic would be greatly appreciated. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:44, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

  The sentence "Nicknamed "Smiling Albert" by the Allies and "Uncle Albert" by his troops, he was one of the most popular generals of World War II with the rank and file." implies a relationship between being a popular general and being called "Smiling Albert", which the note clarifying that one was used by the Allies and the other by the Germans does nothing to dispel. I don't think Szzuk's inference is unwarranted or uncharitable; that's certainly how it reads to me too in the context of the article. —Nizolan ^(talk) 14:42, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

  Sure. I will re-work it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:39, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Response

I was originally asked to work on an improve this article as part of an overall push to improve the articles on key German military figures of the Second World War. This was in 2007, and I was new to Wikipedia. (This is what the article looked like at the time) As you can probably guess, the push completely failed and only this article got improved. The reader interest in the subject was demonstrated though; when it ran as RFA, it got nearly 100,000 page views—more than any other featured article article I've worked on. This was in my early days on Wikipedia. It discussed it at a Wikipedia meet up at the National Library, and expressed my concern that the topic was too controversial for Wikipedia. They disagreed, and said that shouldn't come into it. So I took the assignment on. My assessment was correct, as was my belief that it was uneconomical for me to work on it.

At the time, there were only two real sources in English: Kesselring's memoirs and Macksey's book. Contrary to what Drmies says, sources in English published between 1954 and 2004 do not characterise Kesselring as a war criminal but largely omit this, and uniformly laud him as a great general. Fortunately, I found Kerstin von Lingen's book in German. The whole article largely follows her narrative, although her book is not a biography per se (no one is better qualified to write one though). She informed me that an English translation was under way, so I commenced work on the article. An artefact of my early Wikipedia engagement can be seen in the formatting of the footnotes. To me, it is also visible in the way that errors in the sources are handled. Rather than single out people for their mistakes, which is of no value to the reader, I quietly corrected them. The "Smiling Albert" nickname, for example, is in some sources speculated to have been given to him by his post-war captors, but I found that it was in use as early as 1940. I have tried to address the concerns expressed by this review, and have incorporated additional works and scholarship. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:09, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Coord note: Can we get an update of where things are at with this nomination? K.e.coffman what concerns remain? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:49, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

August 2019 update

The concerns expressed during this FAR (#Nomination statement & #A few comments) remain largely unaddressed. They include:

1. Content failing verification
2. Use of an unreliable & dated primary source, including presenting subject’s self-serving narratives in Wikipedia’s voice
3. Failure to reflect recent scholarship
4. POV writing
5. Omission of relevant context
6. Selective reading of sources w/ cherry-picked citations

--K.e.coffman (talk) 20:39, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

None of this is true.

1. All of the content in the article is fully referenced
2. The use of the subject's memoirs has been handled carefully and in accord with best practice.
3. Recent scholarship has been incorporated into the article. Starting with Kirsten von Lingen's book and articles, which have formed the backbone of the article. When an editor suggested a newly-published source I acquired it, and incorporated it into the article
4. The article reflects the consensus of opinion among historians and not the WP:FRINGE views of POV-pushers
5. I have repeatedly refuted attempts to misquote and misrepresent the sources.

I have worked on the article in good faith. I recommend that the review be closed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 12:36, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

I concur - valid concerns were raised above but Hawkeye has since made edits/provided reasoned arguments to address these. As an example, mention was made to Citino as examples of more recent scholarship and his books are now cited as a source. I note that a couple of comments were made in respect of Kesselring's role in strategic bombing and his nervous tic but the reviewer hasn't substantiated that despite Hawkeye's request to do so. Some comments struck me as being more a case of "I don't like it" and application of a higher standard for this article compared to other Featured Articles. Assessing the comments above in full, there are still a few minor things that could be tidied up but these aren't on a scale that would its affect its FA status IMHO. Zawed (talk) 09:22, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I share Drmies' concerns expressed above. The first paragraph of the lede characterizes him as an avuncular figure, popular with his men, and an accomplished general. That may well be true; no doubt many of Hitler's followers were loyal to him, as, no doubt, were Eva Braun and Blondi. But mention of Kesselring's war crimes is deferred to the last paragraph of the lede. Those crimes, and the enormity of those crimes, should be mentioned first. Kablammo (talk) 15:44, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I estimate to bring this article up to current FAC standards would require a 20% rewrite from circa 400 edits. Merely to remove the POV would require a 5% rewrite from 100 edits. Since the start of this FAR the edits have been low in number and tangential to concerns expressed. Szzuk (talk) 21:43, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Note: Since the start of there process there have been 60 edits adding 20,000 bytes of new material, increasing the article size from 110,000 to 130,000 bytes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:42, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

• FYI--I've cross-posted the review at NPOVN: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Albert Kesselring featured article review. K.e.coffman (talk) 12:09, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

• @Nikkimaria: in view of the unresolved issues and the strong criticisms from uninvolved editors (Drmies, Kablammo, Szzuk), I believe this needs to be moved to the second phase now. I note especially Drmies' comment, which would have looked even stronger if shown as a whole, rather than broken up by Hawkeye's insertions. Bishonen | talk 20:07, 13 August 2019 (UTC).
• I am not sure what the next step in this process is, but I agree that there should be a next step. I still find it hard to believe that this tripe about these two nicknames is in the first paragraph of the lead, for starters--and that this wouldn't be addressed after it was pointed out. Drmies (talk) 22:17, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

• I may have misunderstood you. You feel that the nickname should not be in the lead? I left it there because it is a common appellation that appears in most sources, that nicknames usually appear in the lead and the infobox, and it has been there since January 2004 - over 15 years - so it had an implied consensus for inclusion. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:42, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Comments by PM

Having read the article through a couple of times now, I have a few questions and comments regarding it meeting the FA criteria:

• I added in that he was a war criminal into the first sentence, this was a significant flaw in the lead, but it seems to have taken.

  It wasn't there because being a war criminal was not on the notability list in WP:N and he didn't meet WP:PERPETRATOR. As I said above, for half a century this aspect was not considered worth more than a footnote (or even noteworthy at all) in the sources. Interest in the post-World War II war crimes trials revived in the early 2000s as a result of the wars in the Balkans and Iraq. Most of the literature was from legal sources, and was very negative, focusing on the dodgy rules of evidence in military trials, and the Americans' use of torture to extract confessions. However, von Lingen was one of the historians who pushed back, with her work in Europe and later in Australia, and it provided us with a new source on Kesselring, with a lot of material gathered from non-English sources. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:29, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

  Notability guidelines aren't relevant for what is included in the first sentence, they relate to whether there should be an article on him in the first place. The first sentence should establish notability, he is known for being a senior German commander and for his involvement in killing of civilians, the latter being well-represented in the literature by 2009, so it should have been there then. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:31, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

• I can see the argument for the use of Kesselring's memoirs for straightforward biographical material or for his opinion on something, although I have concerns about it being used to support material written in Wikipedia's voice, which is the way it is currently used. I think the answer to this is to introduce what is being referred to as Kesselring, The Memoirs of Field Marshal Kesselring (BTW is this Gedanken zum Zweiten Weltkrieg or Soldat bis zum letzten Tag? The citation is unclear) when it is first used, something along the lines of "In his 1955/1970 memoirs, Kesselring wrote that..." and then from that point on, especially when anything he says is possibly controversial or self-serving, using something like "Kesselring wrote that..." "According to Kesselring..." "Kesselring later claimed that..." etc. This would largely resolve my concerns with the use of the memoirs

  The The Memoirs of Field Marshal Kesselring is the English translation of Soldat bis zum letzten Tag. Gedanken zum Zweiten Weltkrieg has never been translated into English. For the record, nearly every source makes some use of Kesselring's memoirs. I think you'll find that the memoirs are used for some biographical material in the early years, and sparingly thereafter. There is a couple of "According to his memoirs" in the article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:29, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

  The citations remain unclear, because the citations to Soldier to the Last Day shouldn't say The Memoirs of Field Marshal Kesselring, they should say Soldier to the Last Day so the reader knows what book in the References is being referred to. The lack of in-text attribution is a major hurdle in my opinion. Just because historians have used Kesselring's memoirs doesn't mean we should use them directly and in Wikipedia's voice. Historians are expected to analyse the memoirs and sift through the self-serving stuff, check facts etc. Kesselring's words are primary and not independent of the subject, so they need to be attributed except when used for basic biographical information. Nearly all of the Poland section relies directly on his memoirs, there are numerous examples of where his word is taken as gospel for what happened. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:01, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

  The citations are all to the English translation and not to the original German. I have corrected the reference. Soldat bis zum letzten Tag was published in 1953, and an English translation appeared that year. It was reprinted in 1988 and 2007 as The Memoirs of Field Marshal Kesselring. As far as I can tell, all the English editions have the same page numbers. Saying "in his 1953 memoirs" is fine. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:14, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

  I have now attributed in-text all the material from Kesselring's memoirs that I consider needs to be. If this sticks, I will be voting "keep". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:27, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

• Kesselring was in charge of the bombing of Warsaw in September 1939, but nothing is really said about what was an example of terror bombing like Rotterdam and Belgrade

  Although described as such at the time, the modern consensus is that this was unintended, and that the accuracy of bombing of was grossly over-estimated in those days. I expanded on this in the Rotterdam section, using the recent work of Dutch and German historians. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:29, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

I'll do a light c/e and provide some more comments as they come to mind. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:46, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

• it is a little unclear when he went back into uniform, as he was promoted to Generalmajor in 1934 but the Luftwaffe wasn't created until 1935?

  That's all I have, I'm afraid. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:29, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

• the two paras beginning "Like many ex-Army officers" interrupt the narrative and would probably be better in a Legacy section

  re-thought this, created a new section at the same point in the article to encompass this material Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:38, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

• the Poland section needs a better narrative flow, perhaps by inserting the second para after "Fedor von Bock" and making the new second para the rest of the first para plus the sentence about the Knight's Cross award

  Have done this also. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:39, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

• I'd like to get an idea of the losses incurred by his Luftflotten over Britain and the Soviet Union

  Between 22 June and 5 December 1941, the seven Luftwaffe fighter wings lost 382 aircraft. Soviet sources give their losses as 21,200, of which at least 10,000 were destroyed in air combat. Added this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:29, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

Down to Allied invasion of Sicily. Maybe more to come. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:17, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

• "Thus, Kesselring's conviction became "a legal prerequisite if perpetrators of war crimes were to be found guilty by Italian courts"" doesn't make sense to me. What is meant by that?

  I'm not sure, although it is a correct quote. I have removed. it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:28, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

• what happened to Krummhaar?

  Typo there. Corrected. It was Waldemar Krumhaar. He was sentenced to five years and released in 1950. Unfortunately, I can't find a RS to add this. [3] I wanted to refute the "clean hands" myth so I deliberately selected names from the Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine and SS. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:28, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

OK, I'm done with the c/e. I'll implement some of the above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:48, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Sturmvogel_66

• This needs to go unless it can be confirmed by a RS: According to Kesselring, while he was flying his Fieseler Fi 156 Storch to a meeting he was fired upon by a British force astride Rommel's line of communications. Kesselring called in an air strike by every available Stuka along with other types of ground attack aircraft. His strike was successful; the British force suffered heavy losses and was forced to pull back.

  I have removed this, and re-sourced the paragraphs to Germany and the Second World War. Because one of Kesselring's contentions is now backed up by Stumpf (who cites and quotes radio messages, not the memoirs) I have removed one "According to Kesselring". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:10, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

• including General der Infantrie Enno von Rintelen, the German liaison officer at the Italian Commando Supremo, who spoke fluent Italian Why is this important?

  Removed "who spoke fluent Italian". I think I included this titbit to show how close von Rintelen was to the Italians. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:10, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

• Delete the info about his nicknames from the lede. It's enough that they're covered in the main body.

  Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:10, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:05, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Comments by K.e.coffmand

• Lead through the Poland section:

• "...became one of Nazi Germany's most skilful commanders..." -- according to whom? See, for example, Robert Citino for a different opinion. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:58, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  So I did. This is what he has to say:

Kesselring would earn a reputation as a defensive genius for managing to hold onto Italy until the end of the war. A typical modern evaluation in the English-language literature describes him in glowing terms as a "decisive commander":

Kesselring established himself as a master of the defensive who able time and again to thwart Alied aims in the Mediterranean with significantly smaller forces... His imprint for the battle for Tunisia had been minimal, but changed dramatically when the fighting shifted to Italy. was a product of Kesselring's genius for defensive operations. Throught the campaign it was Kesselring who dictated German strategy by the firm exercise of command and by his ability to shrewdly maneuver his forces against the Allies.

Another labels him as a "master of defensive warfare", a commander with "an instinctive feel for battle", a "a general able to inflict maximum damage on the enemy before withdrawing to fight anbother day." Still others claim that her was "as good a general as emerged from the German army in the Second World War".

The Wehrmach Retreats, p. 271

• So this is his summation of the consensus among historians. The historians Citino refers to are Carlo D'Este, Dominick Graham, Shelford Bidwell and Douglas Porch. Citino's own verdict: "Kesselring handled the campaign skilfully, giving a bravara performance." (p. 274)

• Awkward construction: "He won the respect of his Allied opponents for his military accomplishments, but his record was marred..." (italics mine) --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:58, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
• "He was one of only three officers with the rank of Generalfeldmarschall to publish his memoirs..." -- WP:OR and trivia. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:58, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  Not trivia, because it goes to notability, but it does border on WP:OR, so removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

• Lead is missing information on Kesselring's later career as detailed in the Albert Kesselring#Later life section. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:58, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  Added his leadership of veterans' organizations. His book is already there. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

• "Kesselring wrote that as chief of administration, he had to assemble his new staff from scratch. He was involved in the re-establishment of the aviation industry and the construction of secret factories, forging alliances with industrialists and aviation engineers." -- unnecessary self-congratulations. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:58, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  I think this is a reasobale summation of what he did. O will have a look at what Boog has to say... Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

• "In his memoirs, he stated that first-hand knowledge of all aspects of aviation was essential to being able to command airmen, although he was well aware that latecomers like himself did not impress the old pioneers or the young aviators." -- unnecessary Kesselring's POV. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:58, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  The issue of non-rated officers is a controversial one in many navies and air forces. In the US there area actually laws about it, so it is of interest to the reader. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

• "Kesselring wrote that he gave a high priority to attacks on airfields, barracks and naval installations, while strategic targets like armament factories were not attacked because it was anticipated that the campaign would be a short one in which Polish production would not have a significant impact. (...) The Polish Air Force earned his respect. Kesselring considered that Polish pilots and aircraft were not inferior,..." -- unnecessary & POV. From other literature, we know that German air operations involved bombing of undefended localities, strafing of civilians, and so on. In this context, A paragraph of Kesselring's claims of prioritising military installations and his musings on the abilities of Polish airmen strike me as POV. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:58, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  Refuting the myth that the Polish air force was destroyed on the ground, or the pilots and aircraft were inferior. If you have a good source for the air war over Poland, it could be used. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

• "According to his memoirs, Kesselring strove to provide the best possible close air support to the ground forces and used the flexibility of air power to concentrate all available air strength at critical points, such as during the Battle of the Bzura. He attempted to cut the Polish communications by making a series of air attacks against Warsaw, but found that even 1,000 kg (2,200 lb) bombs could not ensure that bridges would be destroyed.. -- POV and unnecessary self-congratulations. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:58, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  That he failed to accomplish what he set out to do? Hardly. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

• The article does not mention Kesselring's support for National Socialism, his silence on the ejection of Jewish soldiers from the armed forces, and loyalty to Hitler; see Lingen pp. 23, 24 & 27, respectively. --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:58, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  Von Lingen cites Kesselring's memoirs, and I can't find this. I could be only in the German. Do you have a copy of Soldat?

  Loyalty to Hitler is covered in many places, including his response to the bomb plot, and informing Hitler of the surrender negotiations in Italy. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:58, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

To be continued... --K.e.coffman (talk) 23:58, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

References

Comments by Assayer

In recent years Kesselring’s biography has been thoroughly analyzed in three main respects.

1. How Kesselring shaped the way war was waged in Italy.
2. How the Allies dealt with war crimes after the war.
3. How the Kesselring case shaped the ways in which the war was remembered in post-war Germany.

Reviewing the article, I think that it falls seriously short of addressing these issues and that it does not make full use of the available sources. (Lingen, Raiber, Sangster, to name only recent monographs dealing exclusively with Kesselring)

• The nature and consequences of Kesselring’s anti-partisan policies are not fully analyzed. Historians like Lutz Klinkhammer, Gerhard Schreiber, Ben Sheperd, and Kerstin von Lingen have all made clear that Kesselring was responsible for escalating the war in Italy during the summer of 1944. The severity of Kesselring’s order of June 1944 went against the more restrained Merkblatt 69/2 issued by the OKW in May 1944. I do not think that the real point is, that “subsequently” massacres were carried out, but that, as Ben Sheperd has argued, frontline units made full use of the license given to them by Kesselring. “Many of the actions committed by the Germans were not reprisals for specific partisan actions, but terror measures aimed at purportedly ‘pro-bandit’ populations.” (Hitler’s Soldiers, p. 412.) The article fails to provide a sufficient account of German warfare against “partisans”, which has been covered extensively by Klinkhammer, Schreiber and Carlo Gentile, to name only a few historians, particularly given the many words spent on the Italian campaign in general and Kesselring’s “defensive genius”. It is not only that the name of Kesselring, whose signature appeared on posters and printed orders announcing draconian measures adopted by the German occupation, had become synonymous with the oppression and terror that had characterised the German occupation. He was not simply blamed. Instead, historians do indeed argue, that Kesselring prescribed mass terror. Thus it is misleading to have a lead section that states He won the respect of his Allied opponents for his military accomplishments, but his record was marred by massacres committed by his troops in Italy, as if he had nothing to do with the terror and as if the terror was not a central part of his defensive strategy. Btw, Sangster argues that Kesselring’s reputation grew “because he faced inadequate opponents”, in other words, the Allied commanders spoke highly of Kesselring to cover up their own blunders and poor leadership. (p.91) That should be adressed.

• The writing also has a strange tone throughout. The article notes, e.g., that Kesselring rescinded his order … deploring incidents that had "damaged the German Wehrmacht's reputation and discipline and which no longer have anything to do with reprisal operations", and launched investigations into specific cases that Mussolini cited. Did Kesselring really deplore his orders? Lingen writes that Kesselring reacted towards Mussolini’s complaints and merely acknowledged such incidents. Kesselring also went on record by saying “I loved the Italians too much. Now I hate them.” Anyway, the investigations, Lingen notes, were halted inconclusively. She also discusses the figures of casualties given, asking whether the term “partisans” referred to all casualties including women and children. (p. 47) I consider it of vital importance that German numbers of casualties are not accepted at face value. It is to be regretted that these numbers are taken from Lingen, whereas her critical analysis is somehow skipped over. Given the sizable literature on German atrocities in Italy (see above) the references (Trial Proceedings, Haaretz, Mitcham) are poor. Instead the section on war crimes concludes with exhortations of Kesselring’s “defensive success”. Conservative estimates give the number of Italian civilians being killed between March and November 1944 alone as 7,500 men, women, and children. (Sheperd, Hitler's Soldiers, p. 412)

• Kesselring’s subsequent trial has been discussed with considerable detail by Lingen and others. The article, however, does not really discuss these issues. I find that to be disproportionate compared, e.g., to the lengthy quotes of favorable statements by Churchill and Alexander. Besides, the judgement implied that reprisal killings were not justified during wartime. Thus, the court did not leave that question open. It was the Judge Advocate who maintained that the legality of that was not clear cut. Court proceedings should not be interpreted by Wikipedians, particularly when rich secondary sources are available. (see also Michele Battini, The Missing Italian Nuremburg, 2007.) Richard Raiber’s book bears the title Anatomy of Perjury, but we do not learn much abut Kesselring’s lies in the article.

• Lingen argues persuasively, I think, that after 1945 Kesselring became an effective proponent of the wrong notion that the Wehrmacht had fought a clean war in Italy. Wikipedia, however, uses a Time article from 1954 to have Kesselring protesting the "unjustly smirched reputation of the German soldier" and so forth. I find that particularly weak.

• Given that there is secondary literature which made use of Kesselring’s memoirs I do not really see the point why Wikipedians have to make use of it themselves. It should be clear from the outset that memoirs are not reliable sources and that Kesselring’s views have to be contrasted with other sources. I would say, e.g., that the information that Kesselring was able to fly unescorted over the front in his Focke-Wulf Fw 189 reconnaissance aircraft, is intricate detail. What is the encyclopedic value of information like he stated that first-hand knowledge of all aspects of aviation was essential to being able to command airmen, although he was well aware that latecomers like himself did not impress the old pioneers or the young aviators? Sometimes it even becomes funny: In his post-war memoirs, Kesselring claimed he envisioned making a start on the rehabilitation of Germany following the end of the war.[192] Instead, he was arrested. What are we to make out of that information? Was Germany saved from Kesselring's rehabilitating efforts or deceived of it?

--Assayer (talk) 20:12, 23 August 2019 (UTC) Addendum: I take notice that Hawkeye7 argues that Kesselring's take on the issue of non-rated officers is important, because it is a controversial one in many navies and air forces. In the US there area actually laws about it, so it is of interest to the reader. It is implausible, that Albert Kesselring's private opinions on that issue, stated in his memoirs, are of any interest for and sought after by any navy and air force. Who would care to look for that information in an article about such an individual?Assayer (talk) 01:31, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

This addendum is typical of Assayer's criticisms, and closely matches K.e.coffman's. They both have demonstrated over an extended period significant deficiencies in understanding what is a relevant piece of information for a military biography (the lack of military biography FAs to which they have contributed is a further indication of this), and both constantly harp on about useful and interesting information that has been included in good faith in the interests of our readers. With these two editors, this only occurs in the cases of Nazis, and they show no interest in removing similar information from articles about people who are not Nazis, despite the fact that such information is common in articles about non-Nazis. Explaining that Kesselring felt it was necessary for him to be able to fly an aircraft in order to command people who were flying aircraft is directly relevant to his biography, and their opposition to its inclusion is frankly ridiculous. Kesselring's decision in this respect reflects a common feeling amongst military leaders that they must show that they are capable of doing the things that they are asking their men to do. It is integral to military leadership, and is ingrained through training and by example. All this comment does is underline the editor's lack of understanding about such matters. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:46, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Yours is an argumentum ad hominem, suggesting both incompetence and an ideological agenda while sidestepping my main arguments. If that particular information is directly relevant to his biography, it should be easy to provide references from secondary literature. It is easy to provide multiple references that Kesselring escalated the war in Italy through terror and therefore that information is integral to Kesselring’s biography. I maintain that memoirs should not be used by Wikipedians as they are notoriously unreliable sources, and I do not see it as problematic to focus on my expertise, namely German history 1933 to 1945. --Assayer (talk) 11:12, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

It is not a personal attack to point out a pattern of editing behaviour and a demonstrated lack of experience or knowledge in these matters. My comment was not directed at your earlier points, only the addendum regarding Kesselring's flying, so I am sidestepping nothing. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:42, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

FARC section

Issues raised in the review section include neutrality and coverage. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:52, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

• Delist. The article has a hat-full of problems. The worst of which is POV. I see no prospect of anything much changing. Szzuk (talk) 08:49, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
• Keep. Article has extensive material about Kesselring's authorization of reprisals against partisans. The lead even mentions the atrocities committed and the Ardeatine massacre - this is definitely not burying it. Kges1901 (talk) 13:10, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
• Keep. Partly on the strength of this summary by Hawkeye, which, so far as I can tell from reading the article and following the history, is accurate. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:12, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
• Delist. Clear POV which has not been adequately addressed. Why do we lead off an article on a war criminal, who adamantly denied culpability for his actions, with panygerics such as "most skilful", "highly decorated", mention of a Nazi military award, and "most popular"? And (to address a comment made above) there is no such thing as an "an implied consensus for inclusion". It doesn't matter if it was added yesterday, or by some fanboy 15 years ago (and I have not checked on who added it, or when) — the content is what matters. The slanted point of view here is contested and must be addressed, and the refusal to do so is troubling. Kablammo (talk) 16:19, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
• Comment coming to this late, I will review the article in the next few days, post any concerns on talk and then decide which way I'm leaning. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:16, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
• Keep. Nothing here that can't be fixed by stepwise editing. Guy (Help!) 23:21, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
• Keep--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:06, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

@JzG and Sturmvogel 66: While I appreciate your engagement here, a more complete evaluation of this article relative to the FA criteria would be more helpful at this point than a simple keep/delist. What issues remain that can be fixed by stepwise editing? Do you agree with some of the concerns above and just think they're fixable, or do you disagree that what's been raised above is of concern? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:05, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

I just don't see this as an article-on-fire situation. Guy (Help!) 19:28, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

• Keep - as I have previously noted above, some valid concerns were raised at the start of this FAR but edits have been made to address these. Zawed (talk) 22:14, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
• Keep. Issues were raised in some detail about the neutrality and comprehensiveness of this article. After reading through the concerns and checking the changes made, it is clear that the issues have been addressed. Some further improvements could perhaps be made -- I am sure that all of those involved here would be happy to work together on that -- but that does not require nor justify delisting. MPS1992 (talk) 03:26, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
• Comment. There are two votes on the talk page from established editors. Both call this a "Pro Nazi" article or similar. Szzuk (talk) 07:57, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

  Of what relevance is that? Were they made after this FAR process? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:19, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

  @Peacemaker67: One was made in 2017, and I'm not able to find the other one at this moment. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:35, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

• Comments.
  • There are some portrait pictures of him smiling on commons that might be appropriate to illustrate the "Tunisia" section.
  • There is one image, File:De_nieuwe_generaal-veldmaarschalken_van_de_Luftwaffe.jpg, that is nominated for deletion. I don't think there is a need to rush to remove it since it will either be kept if unproblematic or deleted if ineligible. DrKay (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

    I don't think its removal will affect the article, which has plenty of illustrations. It has been listed for months now. But I don't want to add any more from the same source until the matter is resolved. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  • Should "LXXXX" in the "Tunisia" section be "XC"? DrKay (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

    In German, LXXXX is used, but the American source cited uses XC, so changed to that. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  • My main concern are some parts that could benefit from further work to improve neutrality:
    • The aircraft losses for Barbarossa contradict those given (cited to the same source as this article) in the article on the operation. What seems to have happened here is a selective comparison of specific Axis losses against total Soviet losses: this is an unfair comparison. Either the total Soviet losses of 21,200 should be compared to the total German losses of 2,827; or the same selective algorithm should be applied to both sides, not just to the German one. DrKay (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

      I cannot explain the figure given in the Barbarossa article. I have the cited source before me, and it says total German losses were 2,093. Used that. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

    • "Kesselring managed to delay the Allies in Sicily for another month; the Allied conquest of Sicily was not complete until 17 August." Five weeks to take Sicily is not actually that slow, and "conquest" seems a loaded term. Recommend: "Kesselring managed to delay the Allies in Sicily for another month until 17 August...He was able to evacuate 40,000 men, plus 96,605 vehicles..." DrKay (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

      The US official history uses the term repeatedly. See pp. 25, 53, 261. It is also the title of Alexander's official despatch. [4] Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

    • In the section on the "Allied invasion of Sicily", it is not clear to me why we are told about Gonzaga, 184 Airborne Division or F Recce Squadron. This should be related to Kesselring. DrKay (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

      I was trying to convey the chaotic response in Italy, but it perhaps drifted too far. Removed this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

    • In the "Cassino and Anzio" section, the statement "The consequences for the Italian population [of Operation Strangle] were severe; between June 1940 and April 1945, 59,796 Italian civilians and 4,558 Italian servicemen died in Allied air raids" is unconvincing and logically flawed. The paragraph is about 2 months in 1944, but the casualty figure is for the entire war. Clearly, there were many Allied air raids when Italy was an Axis power. If the figure cannot be reduced to only those who died during that specific bombing campaign, then the claim should be removed. DrKay (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

      The air raids were few before May 1943 because Italy was out of range. The raids steadily incresed in number and intensity through 1944. In 1943, when the US Army Air Forces assumed responsibility for most Italian operations, the American bombers dropped 46,448 tons of bombs on Italy. In 1944, the Allies dropped 166,494 tons of bombs. Between January and early May 1945, an additional 63,370 tons of bombs were dropped. The restraints on bombing in France to limit civilian casualties were not in effect in Italy as it was not an Allied country. I did have some figures with a breakdown of civilian casualties, but they have been lost, and archive.org did not archive them. Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  • (Minor point: Some references end in a period, while others don't. They should be consistent.) DrKay (talk) 20:28, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

    Corrected this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

  Keep. Individual comments have either led to changes in the article or been answered with counter-arguments. FAR isn't dispute resolution. The delist arguments are unconvincing when they complain about things such as a lack of coverage of the Italian terror campaign, even though the lead contains explicit statements such as "his record was marred by massacres committed by his troops in Italy" and "Kesselring was tried for war crimes and sentenced to death for ordering the murder of 335 Italian civilians, and for inciting and ordering his troops to kill civilians in reprisals". DrKay (talk) 11:23, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

• Nom's comment. @JzG and Sturmvogel 66: The concern is that normal editing has not worked in the past. I had attempted to reduce Kesselring's self-serving POV cited to his memoirs: diff, Feb 2019, but that was reverted with the rationale that "tweaking the wording is not acceptable; the wording has been carefully reviewed...": [5].

After TP discussion which was not productive: Talk:Albert_Kesselring#Feb 2019 edit, I reached out to FA nom and suggested collaboratively editing the article, with a view of avoiding the FAR: [6]. This was also rejected: [7]. I could try editing the article again and see what happens. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:17, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Any substantial editing is going to cause friction. It is easier to follow the discussion when there is a list of specific points like the one in my review, where each point can be answered in turn. Having said that, I don't think it will be useful to re-visit points made and discussed in the past (such as whether to use the memoirs) as the consensus appears to be that they can be used if suitably attributed and balanced with any counter-evidence. DrKay (talk) 07:52, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

• Comments moved to #Comments by K.e.coffmand. --K.e.coffman (talk) 14:11, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I think we should all agree with User:K.e.coffman that his improvements of articles regarding topics like these, are something that will be continued, long into the future. The reality is that numerous editors with knowledge of the subject have now assessed the arguments made regarding this specific article, and it's time to make a decision. Careful assessment of the article, indicates that it should remain as a Featured Article. MPS1992 (talk) 22:55, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

• Keep I've been through the article in detail and have made some changes and suggested others which have been addressed, and I just do not see the alleged issues with neutrality and coverage that some see, or accept K.e.coffman's perennial argument about what constitutes trivia in military history biographies. His memoirs provide a valuable insight into his thinking at different stages along with his motivations and they are now properly attributed throughout. The final thing I will say is that the laudatory comment in the lead about his skilful command should probably read "most skilful defensive commanders" as he really had no offensive record to speak of, and defensive operations are a very different beast to offensive operations. Otherwise, there has been significant improvement during the FAR, and while I'm sure there are tweaks here and there that can be addressed piecemeal, I don't consider that justifies delisting what is now an excellent article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:11, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
• Delist. As I have argued above[8], the article neglects major facts and details, it is not well researched, and it is not a representative survey of the relevant literature. Thus, as of today it fails WP:FA?.--Assayer (talk) 20:15, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
• Delist per the comprehensive recent review by Assayer, which proves this isn't going to be a simple matter. I find it troublesome that editors make comments such as "keep" per this comment, which essentially says the entire FA critique is a lie. That comment by Hawkeye is practically blockworthy already, and that someone would find that amusing and worth citing is pretty revolting. And it's odd--if Hawkeye thinks it's all a lie, why is he spending so much time following up on these comments? But, in the end, Assayer's comments are already good enough to sway me. Drmies (talk) 01:28, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

• I'm not seeing anything blockworthy in the comment in that diff nor a sense that it is amusing? I personally perhaps wouldn't have characterised K.e.coffman's list as untrue but instead incorrect, at least partially; for example, point 3 alleges failure to reflect recent scholarship but Lingen, cited by other reviewers as recent scholarship, is used. Another source, Citino, also referred to by reviewers, was incorporated as a consequence of the review. As for your comment "if Hawkeye thinks it's all a lie, why is he spending so much time following up on these comments?", it seems to me that his followup is good faith engagement with the review process. Finally, from the tone of your comments here and earlier in the review, I wouldn't have thought you needed any swaying towards delisting. Zawed (talk) 07:39, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

• Drmies you need to take a deep breath and step back, if you think any of Hawkeye7's comments during this FAR are blockworthy. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:50, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

• User:Peacemaker67, I am too old to be patronized by you. Be mindful of manners, please, and drop the personal attacks--you may recall there was an ArbCom case where making things personal was cited as one of the disruptive things. You will note that I commented on comments, not on the person, unlike you. If you do not understand that difference, don't comment at all. "This is untrue" is first of all an accusation of lying and thus a serious denial of AGF--this is not news. Second, if the complaints are untrue, and the editor seriously believes that, then the editor shouldn't act upon them as if they were true.

  Zawed, if you characterize a list as incorrect, that's fine (in this case you're wrong, as this review proves)--but if you call something a bunch of lies, and then you go on to correct the things that you thus claimed were true, you are also admitting that they weren't lies. Drmies (talk) 15:28, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

• I've made no personal attacks, I've made observations on the editing behaviour of two editors based on long experience, which I can back up with many diffs, many of which I used in the ArbCom case, particularly with respect to K.e.coffman. Hawkeye7's response is not an accusation of lying or a failure to assume good faith, it is a difference of opinion about substantive matters which, last time I checked, editors were allowed to have on Wikipedia. K.e.coffman's comments are not automatically true or even germane just because he is the one making them. These questions are determined by consensus, such as what is happening here regarding the keeping or delisting of this article, and they are not determined by threats. Your mention of a block was a clear attempt to intimidate Hawkeye7 into making changes he does not agree with, and you should withdraw it because it was completely inappropriate. That is why you need to take a deep breath and step back. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:38, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

• Delist. Deeply flawed as per Assayer, and POV wording noted above concerning a convicted war criminal is deeply disturbing. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 15:10, 24 August 2019 (UTC)