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Informal Arbitration

See here —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Geo.plrd (talk • contribs).

Not a good idea for more bureaucracy imo. Our current system is fine; to introduce one whole new layer with no power and to call it "arbitration" is, pardon me, downright dumb. You seem to be obsessed with creating new levels of bureaucracy in Wikipedia, but we don't need this. WP:3O isn't supposed to be binding, there's no real reason for this. – Chacor 02:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It does, at first glance, appear like a new level of bureaucracy to me... perhaps I am missing something. I have also notified Geo.plrd (talk · contribs) of this discussion. Navou ^banter / _{review me} 02:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Given that he initiated this, I'm fairly sure he knows of it. – Chacor 02:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So I ~~am confused~~ stand corrected, I see hagermanbot did not sign the unsigned. :P Regards, Navou ^banter / _{review me} 02:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Side comment: Has this page been signed up for Hagermanbot yet?) Newyorkbrad 02:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Side reply: I understood, all I had to do was add the catagory, something else I missed?) Navou ^banter / _{review me} 02:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Guys, this is a proposal. I am trying to create a step that will take care of cases that fall between the cracks. I mean, what good is a 3O, if one user decides not to follow it. If you have any suggestions to make it better, I would love to hear them. G e o. Talk to me 02:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:3O is supposed to be non-binding. If someone doesn't follow the measures, it can be considered a prior step in dispute resolution when going to ArbCom. I'm sorry, but I really think this isn't needed - at least not for this purpose. – Chacor 02:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When you go to Arbcom, you tend to end up with somebody being sanctioned. This will clean up minor disputes without sanctions. G e o. Talk to me 02:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are plenty of levels of dispute resolution that don't give sanctions already. Just look at WP:MEDCAB, WP:MEDCOM, and WP:AMA. PT O 02:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Medcab is non binding, a user can agree to something and blow it off. Medcom sends rejected cases to Arbcom, blowing no sanctions out of the water. The AMA provides advice to users, and generally doesn't resolve disputes. None of these do what Arbcab will do. G e o. Talk to me 03:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FYI - have cross-posted this to WP:AN for more input. – Chacor 02:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The basic idea of a small claims court is interesting. I don't think this idea is well enough developed. A few thoughts: what's small to one person is huge to another at Wikipedia. The scope of these binding decisions isn't defined and the bar for becoming a judge is set very low. Suppose, for example, that someone with 1000 edits handles a revert war and says You can revert five times a day just because they don't know the three revert rule. I'd set this on the back burner and let it percolate. Maybe it'll brew something good in time. Durova^Charge! 03:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the problem is it would not be binding, unless ArbCom, or some new policy, made it so. It could be voluntary arbitration, which can can not institute remedies (blocks/bans), but can make an arbitrary decision on article disputes and such. That is probably a better way to do this. Prodego ^talk 03:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Without a binding quality it looks like very much like mediation or 3O. Durova^Charge! 04:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that the arbitration committee is hesitant to resolve article disputes, and almost never does, there is no way a lower body should be doing that. Binding determinations on content are bad because they contradict Foundation issue #3, as well as our belief in the value of consensus. Christopher Parham (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

it is supposed to be voluntary, yet binding. The bar to become a judge is open to discussion. To prevent the scenario that Durova brought up, there would be a Community Advocate who would ensure that, say in that scenario, 3RR is brought up. G e o. Talk to me 03:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that people will flock to the idea of voluntary sanctioning. I imagine that people, when given the choice, will choose voluntary and non-binding mediation over voluntary and binding. PT O 03:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am actually in (as a 3rd party) dispute right now in which the parties probably would have agreed to some type of non blocking/banning arbitration (as in article content only in decision). WP:RFArb#Free Republic. It would be rare though. Prodego ^talk 03:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is supposed to be like a gentleman's agreement, not voluntary sanctioning. This will not be mediation. G e o. Talk to me 04:05, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think one needs to look up the definition of arbitration. The difference between mediation and arbitration is that mediation is non-binding, and arbitration is. If it wouldn't be binding, then it's not arbitration. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 00:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

it willi be binding G e o. Talk to me 02:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Who will enforce? Navou ^banter / _{review me} 02:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're missing the point. As noted above by Chris Parham, the Foundation does not make binding decisions on content. And that seems to be exactly what you want this to do. – Chacor 02:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am opposed to this proposal for many of the reasons mentioned. Do we really need another dispute resolution layer? Honestly, dispute resolution is confusing as it is. Users often don't use it because they don't know where to start. And yes, since the arbcom doesn't make binding content decisions, this couldn't either. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 03:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

this is supposed to be like a binding third opinion. The sysops would enforce it. G e o. Talk to me 03:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It holds no authority. None. If a user breaks the "remedies", sysops cannot enforce anything. Unless the remedy comes from ArbCom, which sources its' power from Jimbo and is considered by Jimbo to be governing over all Wikipedia, people cannot be bound by the decisions. I oppose this, and it seems like yet another attempt to "grab power" by Geo: 1 2 3 4. Daniel.Bryant 21:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If two editors want a third party to resolve a dispute, what's stopping them from requesting a third opinion and agreeing to accept the result as binding on the two of them? I've participated quite a bit with 3O (as a giver and a solicitor of opinions), and in almost every case I see, the editors having the dispute accept the result and move on. That system works with a minimum of bureaucracy and fuss, and I can't see what this would add to it. As to binding decisions for content disputes, I can't say I'd be sorry to see such a thing, but any such "content arbitrators" would have to be similar to our current behavioral arbitrators-longstanding, highly trusted members of the community who have consistently shown excellent judgment, and who are appointed with the support of the community. Even then, there would be a lot of sticking points to work out, and I just don't think this is the right way to go about such a thing at all. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me Please review me!} 00:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's time to open your wallets...

Apparently Wikipedia might "disappear three or four months from now absent a major infusion of cash donations", according to Slashdot. The post quotes an article which quotes a blog which quotes Anthere as saying:

“

At this point, Wikipedia has the financial ressources [sic] to run its servers for about 3 to 4 months. If we do not find additional funding, it is not impossible that Wikipedia might disappear.

”

This has also made it to fark.com. Some more comments are made here, here and here. MER-C 11:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this belongs here. This is already being discussed at Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#It's true?. --Ideogram 11:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And Jimbo calls BS: [1]. Titoxd^(?!?) 06:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And even of Jimbo didn't dispute the claim, it goes without saying that the Foundation is not even coming close to its fund raising potential. There is one little unobtrusive thing that can solve WMFs fund raising and societal goals to the tune of tens (if not hundreds) of millions of USDollars per year, and that is advertising. I am serious. The Wikimedia Foundation should utilize advertising on its websites. Period. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 15:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the fact is that this isn't an unusual situation for a non-profit. From what I understand wikipedia has been 4 months from bankruptcy since it's inception. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I also think this belongs in the village pump. This is more of a place to make decisions about the community as I understand it. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 16:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Elaborated at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-02-12/Financial state hullabaloo - -- Marcsin |^Talk 21:28, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:Rocinante9x changing "that" <-> "which" in gramatically inappropriate situations

Sorry if I'm in the wrong place; please move as appropriate. After following an edit of Falkirk Wheel I noticed in some of User:Rocinante9x's edits that he/she is changing words here in there in many articles to make them gramatically improper and/or inconsistent. For example, this edit to Hentai creates the gramatically inconsistent "works (noun) that feature... and those which feature...". I'm reporting it here because I don't have time to look through his/her edits and fix them (in fact, just posting here is taking too much of my time!), but thought that it should be brought to the community's attention. --RealGrouchy 03:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Update: (from Talk:Falkirk Wheel) How the hell does this make sense: "...the amount of water leaving the caisson has exactly the same as the boat." The same what? (weight).

This uncommented edit introduced this error (although it wasn't clear in the previous version, either), and also replaced "that" with "which" in two places that went against the definitions/preferred uses in Wiktionary's entries for that and which.

I reversed the that/which error (which User:Rocinante9x changed in a number of articles), and clarified the "exactly the same" sentence, only for User:Calton to "revert" my "misguided" edits back to the improper and unclear version by User:Rocinante9x! If my understanding of the English language is incorrect, I would encourage someone to reference a source that says so! --RealGrouchy 19:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What you're doing is called "which hunting". Here's a blog full of linguists, Language Log, decrying it; they explain in several ways why real English makes no grammatical distinction between "which" and "that" in restrictive clauses. Your edits don't introduce anything incorrect, but I agree that your reason for making them is misguided. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 20:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about the breakage of the "water weight" sentence; it was definitely poor as I found it, but I guess I didn't proof my revision sufficiently.

As for "which hunting": My case depends on three points: (1) "which" should be used (in preference to "that") in cases where "who" would be used if the referent were a person, for parallelism; (2) "which" must be used when it's preceded by a preposition, and so should also be used in similar situations not including a preposition; (3) that "which" can only be used in a nonrestrictive sense is a fallacy; being restrictive or nonrestrictive depends not on the word but on whether it is preceded by a comma! "That" can only be used in the restrictive case, but that does not imply that "which" can only be used in the nonrestrictive case. "Which" can be used in either case, distinguished by the presence of a comma.

Now, I'm not claiming that "which" is more correct, grammatically, in the restrictive case; my argument is purely one of style.

As an illustration, I quote the following (selected randomly from the web):

"...systems of conservation laws which don't allow any analytical calculation and for which it is difficult to use classical schemes..."

Many (most?) English writers would have written "laws that don't". But it's absurd to prefer (let alone require) "that" in the former clause, when it impossible to use in the latter clause.

Similarly, in the following (fabricated) example:

"The Iroquois who lived east of the Ohio river were..." vs. "The Iroquois, who lived east of the Ohio river, were..."

It's silly to allow that "who" can be used in both cases (restrictive and nonrestrictive) while insisting that "which" can not be used in the former case.

By the way: According to Strunk and White, "which hunting" is the practice of looking for and eliminating "which" clauses from your writing, and thereby improving your work. So what we're talking about here is not, by this definition, "which hunting".

Rocinante9x 14:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion for community ban

Starwars1955 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) first showed up as an anonymous user on 9 December 2006 (here) on the Brett Favre article talk page, requesting unprotection so he could edit the statistics. His changes resulted in removing references (here) and overall just seems to be very confused about WP rules. Long story short, a bunch of violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA ended up getting him indefinitely blocked. This has not stopped him.

Widescale creation of sockpuppets (list of socks used by him) used to edit the Favre article and try to trick administrators who aren't completely aware of the situation into "helping" him (here)

Continues with personal attacks here, here, here, and my personal favorite, where he brings my age into the picture for some reason

Disrupts Wikipedia to make a point here by adding a sixth link on Peyton Manning, so that he can cite that page as "evidence" here

Simply will not stop reverting to the same edit he made months ago here, here, here, and here (with misleading edit summaries too)

He has been nothing but a nuisance; I am suggesting that he be banned from the wiki community. –King Bee ^{(T • C)} 15:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As an admin who tried to reason with Starwars1955, eventually blocked him indefinitely, and have blocked at least two of his socks, I support a community ban. He's shown absolutely no variance in his behavior despite both counseling and warnings from multiple users, including at least two admins. I see no evidence that the user intends to reform. | Mr. Darcy talk 15:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I support as well. He has leveled accusations of policy violations at multiple editors but has refused to follow through, leading me to believe he doesn't actually understand the policies he's citing but rather issuing empty threats. At the same time he violates those same policies and, when called out for it, accuses editors of being biased against him. The behavior King Bee evidenced above clearly demonstrates a persistent user who has no desire to change his ways despite being given several clear suggestions as to how to do so. PSUMark2006 talk | contribs 15:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree, at this point I've had a couple of conversations with the editor in question under various accounts he has created and he just doesn't seem to get it. I've laid out explicitly why the editor was blocked and what the editor should not do if they want to avoid being blocked in the future. The editor's latest incarnation was extended a wide lattitude of WP:AGF and when I advocated letting him edit Talk:Brett Favre to discuss these changes, his response was basically that he was right so there is nothing more to discuss. I think at this point it is clear the individual in question has no intention of changing their behavior so a ban is the appropriate next step. I pretty clearly warned this individual that this was the next step if they did not stop being disruptive. Beyond that it should also be mentioned that the editor has edited extensively from 4.245.XXX.XXX IPs to make these exact same changes.--Isotope23 16:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Um, if everyone is discussing a ban, why does it say on Starwars1955's userpage that he is already banned? That template on his userpage is the incorrect template, unless Starwars1955 was banned by decision of Jimbo Wales, the Arbitration Committee, or community consensus. Acalamari 17:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is incorrect, as far as I know. Jaranda added the template a while ago, but the user is indefinitely blocked, not banned. –King Bee ^{(T • C)} 17:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I had to bring this up, as an administrator and I got in trouble about three weeks ago for the banning of a user when we should have discussed a ban with other users and administrators. I just wanted to make sure you didn't fall into the same problem. Acalamari 17:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed the tag. WP:AGF, Jaranda just made a mistake. I've seen a lot of people confuse indefs with bans.--Isotope23 18:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is not true, all these people are trying to do is ganned up on him and revert ebery edit he made, all that is trying to be proved is that the edits by BeverlyHills85 are verifiable, and PSUMark2006 did that, and they belong, I'm a friend of starwars1955 and all he wants is for the info to be added, but he can't get a fair shake people admit that the info is verifiably, but won't add it, MRDarcy banned malibu55 for sock with no proof and I'm diffenatly not a sock, just a friend at a firrerent location, starwars1955 also requested to be unblocked and user Yamla reverted the unblock request which he had no right to do and fully protected the starwars1955 talk page, he's not getting a fair shake and all the people her are the ones that have ganned up from day one, and it's wrong, the only issue its whether or not the info belongs and is verifiable, it is and as far as the sixth link on Peyton Manning, there were 5 to begin with, so what's wrong with adding the sixth ans final, Thanks, GrowingPains1 18:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC)GrowingPains1[reply]

The issue here has nothing to do with the verifiability of edits anymore. That may have been the catalyst, but King Bee provided evidence of the similarity between Malibu55's edits and previously-identified sockpuppets. The information, when confirmed by the sources I've contacted, will be added to the article. If that's your only concern, there's no need to worry yourself about this any further. Thanks, PSUMark2006 talk | contribs 18:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are you a sockpuppet? You registered very recently, and seem to know a lot about the situation with Starwars1955. Acalamari 18:34, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This user is exhibiting behavior similar to that of previously-identified and blocked socks, in particular removing comments that challenge his position: [2]. PSUMark2006 talk | contribs 18:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Starwars1955, has been editing Brett Favre since October under his IP address, and he created the Playoff stats section and the box above it and most of the records and milestones, the only reason it's come to this is because these people have ganned up on him because they want the Favre page there way or no way, and that's not the wikipedia way, the edits by BeverlyHils85 are correct and verifiable, even PSUMark2006 agrees to that and aviper2k7 and King Bee have personally attacked starwars1955 many times, they tried to provoke him and he handled it maturely, GrowingPains1 18:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We must have edited at the same time, I didn't delete anything, I wouldn't do that, why do you accuse people, that's a personal attack, King Bee removed 3 of Peyton Mannings infobox stats saying three is enough, see it's his way or no way, malibu55 only added 1, there were five to begin with, three is not enough, there are links to all six and people just have to fill in the code, 3 is not enough, wikipedia designed them to be there for people to link too, it has nothing to do with WP:POINT, no point is trying to be made, just links are being added for the community, why is King Bee doing this?, GrowingPains1 18:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This just sort of brings the point home. GrowingPains1 = Starwars1955. The user's first edit after creating the userpage was to hit King Bee's talkpage. He reverted to another SW55 sock edit at Peyton Manning. He commented on Aviper2k7's talkpage. He signs pages the same way. He mis-spells the same words. Yet he still inisinuates he is not SW55, BeverlyHils85, or Malibu55, etc. I think the fact that he is creating socks to continue these edits and mischaracterize other editors opinions really demonstrates that there is no reason to believe this editor is ever going to change their ways.--Isotope23 18:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I want the edits to be added, hey are factual, BeverlyHills85 edits are right, PSUMark2006 sats they are all verifiable and will be added, that's a lie, King Bee won't have it, starwars1955 idn't do nothing bad, Yamla fully protected the starwars1955 talk page so he can't have his unblock request, if you can't get a fair treatmant, what do you do, there were 5 infobox stats on Peyton's page before malibu55 added the 6th, I hope your happy with contributing to vandalism on the Peyton Manning page Isotope23, Thanks

Particularly disturbing is the way the individual is aging his socks to circumvent semi-protection and continue to engage in WP:POINT edits (the Peyton Manning edits were done apparently to use as an example in the Favre discussion; i.e. Favre should have this info because it already exists at Manning).--Isotope23 19:02, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Isotope23, king bee vandalised the peyton page by removeing those 3 infobox stats, Isotope23, check the history in Peyton Manning's page, malibu55 only added one, there were 5 to begin with, check it, do it, King Bee removed three cause he wanted to, so it would be like the Favre page, his way or no way, that is vandalism, there were 5 to begin with, but King Bee wouldn't have it, now you keep reverting to what he's done, you should discuss it on Peyton's talk page whether they wanted to go from 5 to 3, no you do waht you want, now go and really check Isotope23, there were 5 to start, only one was added and King Bee struck again, it's really sad, all I want is BeverlyHills85 edits to stay and even though PSUMark2006 says all that infom is verifiable, King Bee will not allow you to all BeverlyHills85 edits, he has to much of a vandetta and he won't allow it, and you all know this, Thanks

Also, I've noticed that Starwars1955 didn't always sign messages. The message above Isotope23's last message message is unsigned, but I checked the history, and it was posted by FamilyTies82. I think that user is yet another sockpuppet of Starwars1955. It seems too convenient that all these new users know of all the discussions about Starwars1955. Acalamari 19:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The IP that didn't sign the message above my last message also seems to know about Starwars1955. Acalamari 19:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I said above, IP 4.245.XXX.XXX is used by this individual to do the same sorts of edits... and they've been removing comments here as well.--Isotope23 19:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. They seem to be removing my messages, as my messages help to prove why some of the messages here are by Starwars1955's sockpuppets. Acalamari 19:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Isotope23, revert starwars1955 talk page to where he requested unblock, give hima a fair shake and this will stop, he requested a unblock and left all this be, but Yamla reverted it and protected the page for a month, and one thing is clear, this site is being run by a bunch of kinds with too much time on there hands, mature people wouldn't act in this manner, and you still didn't look into the Peyton Manning thing I mentioned above, please do it, you have no right to lower it from 5 to 3, delete the one I added cause of the vendetta, but don't delete the other two that were on there to begin with, Thanks

I've not been removing comments kid, I've been editing the same time as others, Thanks— Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.245.120.53 (talk • contribs)

Sorry, but we don't make "deals" here. Your continued disruption from IP adresses while you are indefinitely blocked makes an unblock request moot. At this point there is no way you would be unblocked. I don't know if you noticed, but there is a discussion going on here about whether or not you should be banned from editing altogether.--Isotope23 19:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse ban. There's really no question here. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 20:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What I did in reverting the unblock request was not "illegal". The unblock request was not made by the account requesting the unblock. 4.245.120.12 (talk · contribs) was violating WP:SOCK. Additionally, unblock abuse is considered to have occurred after at least two administrators review the block and judge it valid; the user is not entitled to any further unblock reviews, at least according to the {{unblockabuse}} template. It seemed to me (though I suppose I could have been mistaken) that this user was already well past that. --Yamla 20:08, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I endorse also, because it's been proven that the BeverlyHills85 edit is Verifiable and correct and many Brett Favre fans will revert to it and you better check there IP address before you block all of them for being sock puppets, because if there IP address isn't close to mine, then you'll be getting yourself in trouble, the info has been verified at PSUMark2006 talk page, so be more careful before blocking people in the future, remember this info is verified now and blocking them for accusations won't cut it now, Thanks— Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.245.120.53 (talk • contribs)

Fine if you want to endorse your ban from Wikipedia, be my guest.--Isotope23 20:28, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's his attention to detail that has made him so charming. Adam Weeden 20:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse ban. I am/was a frequent editor of Brett Favre, and considered it to be a pet project of sorts. I have frequently worked with others on that page in the spirit of collaboration, and have even seen some ideas that I though would be good shot down. With that said, Starwars1955 is one of the few editors I have not been able to come to a mature understanding with over editing and adding to the content on Brett Favre. One particular instance comes to mind in which I was making additions to the page that he didn't like. At no time did he (other than throwing around WPisms, like NOR, at random points) did he attempt to persuade me as to why he thought my changes were invalid other than he thought that with them, the page "looks awful". When, after some discussion with some other parties, it was pointed out that WP may not be the proper place for such information, Starwars1955 began acting in an immature, uncivil manner simply because I had agreed to remove the content. He has been the subject of at least one (initiated by me), and maybe more, three revert rule violations and has demonstrated a consistent pattern of incivility, personal attacks, and downright manipulation by deleting comments contrary to his own. In summary, as someone who has tried to work closely with him, demonstrating civility and good faith as much as possible, I can't recall one positive contribution he has made to Brett Favre or any other pages that I have seen him edit. This leads me to extrapolate that he will likely not make any useful contribution in the future, and on the contrary will likely cause significant grief and headache. Not only do I endorse a ban, I can only wonder if ban is strong enough for use who has demonstrated such a deep desire to make HIS changes that he has created at least a dozen sock puppets (that we know of) to do so.

Thank you for your time and attention in this matter. Adam Weeden 20:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

AdamWeeden is one of the people that started this lynch mob, because he was breaking WP:NOR by putting on current pace crap, wikipedia is not a crystal ball and he was furious that it had to be deleted, in the words of aviper2k7 haha, and everyone knows that all the edits by BeverlyHills85 is correct, factual and verifiable, that's not the point, they all have a personal vendetta and I suggest you see them through and ban me, but other Favre fans will restore the info that BeverlyHills added, it's been verified in PSUMark2006's talk page and it will be added and you can't block them, they aren't socks, don't you see I want banned, so other Favre fans can add the info that's been verified in the PSUMark2006 talk page and that beverlyhills85 added, wikipedia is public and the info has been verified and as PSUMark2006 said, there should be no problem adding it, so please ban me quick so this info can go on the page, I have tons of Favre fans in a fan club and now that it's verified through PSUMark2006, it can be added and the fan club has over 100 wikipedia accounts ready to go, all we want is the correct additions BeverlyHills85 added, and Al Michaels and John Madden talked about on Sunday night football Dec. 31st as part of Favre's NFL Marks stand, and now that it's verified through PSUMark2006 talk page, it can be added, as PSUMark2006 said it should be no problem, so ban me quick, so they can proceed, Thanks

Per what you've said above and WP:DENY anyone coming along and making the same edits you made are subject to being reverted and blocked at a puppet of your account. I just want to make sure you understand that meatpuppeting on your behalf will also not be tolerated if you are banned.--Isotope23 21:05, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You can't block someone for agreeing with the varified material, now do you want to try this, there not my puppets, they are Favre fan club members, now keep up with your threats, your asking for it, the info is verified, and just because you don't like it being there, it's verified and cited and it's coming, Thanks

Yes, I was so furious with you.Adam Weeden 21:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IP user 4.245.121.179 (talk · contribs) has been reported to WP:ANI for violations of WP:NPA on User talk:Aviper2k7 for this edit. PSUMark2006 talk | contribs 21:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse ban. Although I haven't had much direct interaction with this user, I have had indirect interaction through edits on Brett Favre and more recently, now, Peyton Manning, though I think reasons for a ban have already been well explained by other editors - the most significant being personal attacks and general unwillingness to work with fellow editors. Beyond that, I don't believe it necessary to rehash this. Skybunny 21:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly endorse ban. I'm receiving the same messges and everything that the people above are getting, so I know how it's gotten, they've states it already.--Wizardman 21:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse ban Starwars1955 has caused so many problems for King Bee, Aviper2k7, and MrDarcy. Not only that, but he endorses his own ban. This is the only thing Starwars1955 and I agree on: that he should be banned. I posted messages on Starwars1955's talk page a few months ago, and I remember my own messages, as well as other users' messages, getting removed by him. Starwars1955 has frequently shown aggression to other users, and uses personal attacks. On top of this, he has more sockpuppets than any other user I've encountered. Acalamari 21:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse, but especially enforce It's fairly easy to tell his sock-puppets. Just look for a paragraph with misspelled words and no periods with the word "factual" in it. This user also has completely ignored WP:V, stating that it doesn't need to be verified because it's "fact". This can be seen at PSUMark2006's talk page. This user has personally attacked me before, and has told several administrators that I should be banned. He has called me a "kid" a couple of times, insulting me because of my age (which is 18 fyi). I'm really sick of dealing with this, and all patience is lost. The user has not made one edit to the Favre (probably any) page that hasn't started an edit war, and has even stated that he doesn't need a consensus. Shows no signs of stopping if unblocked, and hasn't even stopped when he has been blocked.++aviper2k7++ 21:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse ban for all of the above reasons. I particularly trust Mr. Darcy's discretion and his inability to reform this editor into a productive Wikipedian tells me that reform is probably impossible. Durova^Charge! 22:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse ban. I was the original mediator for the case an editor brought up over the edit war on the article. I can't say that he was very civil (making attacks about users' ages, changing !votes, etc.) back in December, and I highly doubt that he's changed since then. Shadow1 (talk) 22:11, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Kill it with fire. Cooperative projects need cooperative users. – Luna Santin (talk) 22:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hi guys and gals I've been very sad and read through each edit on his/her talk page since the link above and wow! I'm very impressed with the maturity of you all (I only hope I'd be able to remain so calm). I'm not sure if you've actually seen all the personal attacks that he/she made against Mr Darcy and others as he/she tried to cover them up with blank page edits and so forth (and often other users would do reverts) but it was very nasty. It is also quite amusing when he/she asked "who keeps blanking my page" when an IP address did so only to admit several edits further on that it was his/her IP in a seperate argument. Anyway, if this is an open community vote I'll pitch in with endorsing a full ban or block for the user, the sock puppets and the IP based solely on what I've just read. AlanD 02:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All I can say is I'm very sorry for any issues we've had in the past and you have my word that there will be no more words or arguments in the future, for all theissues I've had, it was because someone on wikipedia was rude to me, but there will be no more issues with me in the future, all my intentions were is to get the correct factual verified info posted on the page as BeverlyHills85 did, but I have no more accounts, so if anyone else edits, it won't be from me and I ask you please don't ban me and I give my word that there will be no more issues between me and other wikipedians in the future and you never know, someday I might be unblocked from editing, all I tried to do is add those factual verified stats, sorry you guys wouldn't work with me, but I apologize for everything, including the words we had and I just wish you would agree to put all those correct Favre stats on there, I think all the hard works he's done, he deserves to have those correct NFL stats that Al Michaels, John Madden and the NFL always talks about on his page, he deserves that, and as a true fan I would like to see it, I mean BeverlyHills85 edit is almost exactly like the current edit, except for 5 extra stats, but anyway I'm sorry for everything and ask you not to ban me, I have no fight left in and what am I fighting for anyway, the injustace is being done to Brett Favre, not me, once again I apologize for the words we've had, it will never happen again no matter what you guys say, Thanks, 4.245.120.142 03:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)starwars1955[reply]

The above is clearly a lie; LadyVols (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is an obvious sockpuppet of this user, see this diff. –King Bee ^{(T • C)} 03:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse Ban Editors like this end up being a time sink for everyone. IronDuke 03:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC) Endorse Ban, and delete and salt his talk pages. WP:DENY. --Elar a girl^Talk|Count 05:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've enacted the ban. Grand master ka 07:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Log of community bans?

Over the last two days I've received e-mails regarding a community ban I implemented after discussion. It would probably be a good thing to start a page that logs community bans: username (or primary account), date of banning, and a link to the discussion. That would simplify reference if the editor later asks to be reinstated. Durova^Charge! 22:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That could be very useful. ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 22:21, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we already have Wikipedia:List of banned users#Banned by the Wikipedia community. --Conti|✉ 22:24, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that should work, although it's really just for long-term or indefinite bans. If a regular practice develops of community-banning editors for shorter periods, a different forum may be needed. Newyorkbrad 03:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe. Sad to say but organizing information isn't always something we're good at. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 07:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What??? We're WIKIPEDIA!!! --Ideogram 16:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(reduce indent) We are good are article information, but it might be good that we are not good at organizing ban information, not our primary goal, but appears to be a necessary evil :) . Navou ^banter / _{review me} 18:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Nazis were excellent at organizing information...and look where they ended up. DoomsDay349 22:00, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Did you have to go there? Durova^Charge! 22:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have to go everywhere. DoomsDay349 22:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Godwin's Law strikes again. PT O 01:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Whoa. I'm like, a slave to theory now. Wicked. DoomsDay349 01:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

GAC Backlog

I mentioned this is a section about halfway through the page, but felt it really should be brought to attention. There's an enormous backlog over at WP:GAC, and it would help incredibly if we could get just 8 or 10 users dedicated to putting in a few hard hours work (it takes about ten minutes to review an article). You'll find you soon get the hang of it, just look over WP:WIAGA and then review, soon enough you don't really need to reference back. If you're interested in aiding in this, just say so so that I know you are and go to town with it. Thanks all. DoomsDay349 21:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll get started tonight and will chip in as I have time throughout the week. PSUMark2006 talk | contribs 22:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in too, under the same conditions as the above user. Seems like a nice way to contribute. –King Bee ^{(T • C)} 22:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes...begin my minions! Dance, puppets, dance! ...*cough*...what? Where am I? :) DoomsDay349 22:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see if I can get round to some tomorrow. WP:FLC is somewhere else that needs attention. Cheers, Moreschi ^{Request a recording?} 22:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

While the subject is on the GA system, just in case anyone forgets to put an article on the main GA page after reviewing it or something, (It's almost happened to me a few times) if anyone knows Perl, runs it with cURL, and is running a Linux type machine, any help with the GA article sorting, page updating and counting script gaauto.pl would be nice :D. It even automatically lists articles that haven't been put on the page, or at least it did before the user who ran it left suddenly. Homestarmy 01:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Restored Open RFC that was not listed

Just restored an rfc that was no longer listed at WP:RFC:

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Abu badali

--Kim Bruning 19:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It would appear that Radiant! removed a number of elderly and stale RfCs, but did not archive them - probably not a good idea, and I may look into it and try to link the missing ones into the archives. The Abu badali one really should be closed and archived, though; it seems to be providing a pretty good bulls-eye, and if the issue hasn't been resolved in the nearly three months since it was filed, then it should probably move to arbitration. Tony Fox (arf!) 21:22, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, well, I suggest folks go take a look anyway. --Kim Bruning 22:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism by IP Address: 70.106.74.152

Sorry to post something like this here, but I don't know where else to tell people about it.

I was looking at the United States Chamber of Commerce page when I noticed that it was pretty severely vandalized. Then, looking at the history I saw that it was by someone with the IP address 70.106.74.152. (Sorry, I don't know how to link that to a contribution history.) Anyway, this person/address has about 500 edits, many of which seem to be pure vandalism.

Can someone tell me where I should report it? I'm at work now, so I don't have enough time to revert all those myself... --65.210.108.102 20:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC) (sorry, I forgot to sign it the first time) --65.210.108.102 20:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:AIV is probably the best place :P. Yuser31415 20:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I looked there before I posted here, but I didn't think it was appropriate--that pages says "after repeated warnings," but I haven't given any warnings yet. Anyway, since that was the only good place to do it, I went ahead and posted there. Thanks! --65.210.108.102 21:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to community ban CroDome (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hello. I'd like to introduce you to our latest POV-warrior, CroDome (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Examples of his behavior include [3], [4], [5], and then (here we go) [6], and this comment:

You talk of ethnic hatred? I am today forced to live with Serbians. Do you know that every single moment of my life is fear? You might never know when a Serb couldn't attack me from a corner and cut my throat! I don't want to die, I want to live - but many Serbs have proven hostile to me, and I think that they want nothing but even more dead Croats, and they've aimed at me. You cannot possibly know how I feal, for you're not in Serbia (one of the most fascist governments on erth). (I cannot find the diff, perhaps the revision has been oversighted.)

Here is the diff: diff Maîtresse 21:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He proceeded to nominate Kubura (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for adminship [7], and when Kubura did not accept [8], CroDome proceeded to badger him with [9] this comment.

In regards to this unacceptable behavior on CroDome's part, I believe we as a community should stop this user from editing permanently. Therefore, I propose a community ban for this user. Yuser31415 20:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Diffs 7 & 8 will come up blank because I deleted the RFA. Nom didn't want it and it appeared to be POV motivated without his consent. It was never listed for comment, so I removed it completely.--Isotope23 21:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A little bit of devil's advocacy here: What if the guy really has been harrassed and threatened in real life? There's certainly a history of such discord between the relevant groups. I can see a community ban on the basis of the RfD shenanigans alone. But I'm a little uneasy about statements that he has been harrassed (which may well be true for all we know) being used as evidence against him. Raymond Arritt 21:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)Had I seen some of the edits cited below I wouldn't have brought this up. Raymond Arritt 22:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is certainly sad if he has been attacked before in real life, but Wikipedia is not a place to nuture hatred or fear. Yuser31415 21:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken, thanks. Raymond Arritt 22:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If one harbours hatred towards an ethnic group for whatever reason, and their edits clearly reflect this hatred with no attempt to even mask it let alone leave it behind before saving, then this editor does not belong on wikipedia. This is Wikipedia, not a personal blog to display your bias and POV (which he is certainly using it as). Maîtresse 22:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse - We do not need this kind of editing: I see nothing bar disruption, personal attacks, POV-warring and incivility. Point me, please, to a single productive edit this user has made, because I'm seeing none myself.

Moreschi ^{Request a recording?} 21:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the reason we see no productive edits from this user is because we are dealing with a joke account, meant only to provoke and disrupt others. Maîtresse 22:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, I don't see much positive here, but I can't really get behind a WP:BAN of an editor who has never gotten so much as a block. An indef of the account is one thing, but IMO a ban is a pretty severe place to start.--Isotope23 21:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I've brought CroDome up on AIV three times at various stages, and nobody has actually blocked him. Yuser31415 21:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
<edit conflict>Comment I agree with Isotope23. A ban for a user with 41 edits seems rather harsh - especially as the account is only 3 days old. I was going to oppose on the grounds that it very early days inhis wiki career but looking at the user's talk page I can see lots of warnings and not much in the way of learning. Indef block as a vandal by all means but I just can't see how this user is so objectional that they have earned a community ban so quickly. --Spartaz 21:38, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User may appear to be new to Wiki but then one must question how within a few days he already nominated someone for adminship or even knew HOW to nominate someone. I have been here for what "appears to be" longer than CroDome and I still don't know how to nominate someone. Or even, how does the user know what adminship entails? How would the user know where to find all this information in such a short time span... All of these raise red flags. Maîtresse 22:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nonconcur/Nonsupport At this time I can not support. It is very difficult to imagine a new editor already exausting the communities patience. Explore WP:DR dispute resolution and short term blocks in the event of repeated policy violation. Thanks, Navou ^banter / _contribs 21:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - and what will happen? Sure, he'll get blocked again and again, make no productive edits, and we'll be back here again in a few months having wasted a lot of time. Certainly I see no reason to think that this editor is here for any other reason other than to promote his brand of hatred. Moreschi ^{Request a recording?} 09:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Endorse - These edits are unacceptable: (1) No Serbs on Wiki is good, (2) wants to "track down" all Serbs, (3) outright POV vandalism, (4) posts a fascist WWII saying, simply unbelievable, and probably the worst of all, (4) translation: can we vote to prevent Serbs from contributing to Wiki?. And these are just 4 of his unacceptable edits! If this isn't enough to get user banned, I don't know what it would take... In addition to not following more serious rules regarding neutrality/civility/personal attacks, user refuses to follow the simplest of Wikipedia rules (signing w/ 4 tildes) after being notified plenty, which foreshadows future failure to follow Wikipedia rules. This user CLEARLY shows no signs of changing his ways, he has been not only warned many times, but users have actually taken the time to explain to him how to change his behaviour, all of which he ignores. Maîtresse 22:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support, this is unacceptable racism that has no place on Wikipedia. I don't know if he's trying to be funny or if this is deeply rooted vandalism, but it is still dead wrong. ~~Ban~~ Block him ASAP. Please note: I was unaware of the implications of "ban". I think we should block him for a bit, and see what happens. DoomsDay349 22:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question Where are the diffs detailing where someone has attempted to educate the user? Navou ^banter / _contribs 22:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

diff Maîtresse 22:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

diff Maîtresse 22:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for providing Diffs, however, at this time I can not support a community ban. Note the user is new, and without a block log. I must strongly encourage the community to use DR and strongly encourage the application of WP:BLOCK where appropriate. Without a block history for disruption or policy violation, I can not at this time support a ban. Regards, Navou ^banter / _contribs 22:56, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree with ban, but agree that this editor's conduct has been unacceptable. The editor should be given a clear and final warning that blanket statements regarding any race (or editors of that race) are absolutely unacceptable and will result in a quickly-escalating series of blocks. If this advice is ignored even after implementing several such blocks, I would reconsider. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me Please review me!} 22:58, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I endorse Sera...'s above statement. Sounds like a good recommendation. Navou ^banter / _contribs 23:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it's far too soon for a ban. Even with the behaviour that has been shown, I find it difficult to believe that he has 'exhausted the community's patience'. Veesicle (Talk) (Contribs) 23:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I find the above users' optimism misplaced. He has exhausted the patience of every editor he has come into contact with. (Even the one he nominated for adminship.) But I am no admin, so it is up to the editors that have such authority to take any action. If a ban will not be enacted, then I support an immediate block (as has been requested on WP:AIV before, with regard to said user). Maîtresse 23:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not optimistic, I just don't agree with banning a new editor who has not received so much as a block before. There is a dispute resolution process, and I have not see any diffs that link to mediation, a request for comment, etc. If you look at the banning policy it says that "Users are banned as an end result of the dispute resolution process, in response to serious cases of user misconduct.", whereas in this case the process hasn't even been initiated. Veesicle (Talk) (Contribs) 23:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am not too familiar with the dispute resolution process thank you for pointing it out. However, the process HAS been initiated, the First and Second steps are complete. If further formal steps have to be taken, then could the users involved in this discussion help out? Maîtresse 23:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with an idefinate ban, WP:BITE and assume good faith come to mind, the issue raised about early knowledge of the RFA process needs to be considered in the light of these comments. I find these comment more disturbing than those of a newbie as they inflammed the situation using general defamatory sweeping statements about admins, yet I look past this as an attempt to be seen as supportive of the editor. I think that if edits by User:CroDome continue to be uncivil then blocks should be applied. Gnan garra 00:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First of all - I hate no nation. Kubura already notified me that GreaterSerbian supporters will try to push me off Wikipedia - I can't believe he was right.

Worst of all, ZA DOM SPREMNI is not fascist. Every Croat knows it. Labeling it as fascist is just like caling the Croat people fascist? Are you going to ban now Maitresse??? --CroDome 00:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is fascist: [diff]. Read. Maîtresse 01:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are you not getting it? Your statement "The Greater Serbian supporters will try to push me off Wikipedia" do you not realize that that is a huge racist blanket statement? This is what we're talking about here. DoomsDay349 00:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse - based on this users contributions and knowledge of Wikipedia policy, I am strongly inclined to believe that this user is a single purpose account/sock puppet used simply for trolling and disruption. Perhaps to test the limits of a what an editor can get away with before being blocked/banned? Although this user has not had many contributions, I don't think you can point a single positive contribution, and this user shows absolutely no sign of being able to respect Wikipedia policy and be a positive contributor to Wikipedia. // Laughing Man

Comment - I think it will be helpful for other Wikipedians to review this user's previous User Page which was deleted, as well his Request for adminship that was also deleted. Is possible that we can restore them in a temporary subpage so others who did not get a chance to see them can review? // Laughing Man 01:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Comment Agree, you may place it in User:Navou/Sandbox if you like. Navou ^banter / _contribs 01:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The unacceptable comments from the user's original Userpage can be found in my contribution to their talkpage (following: With regard to the following quotes from your userpage:) as I copied them there to illustrate what was wrong with the comments. Maîtresse 01:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support block, no opinion on ban. Usually the sorts of people we bring up for banning have block logs a mile long -- this account is only a few days old, only has a few edits, and has never been blocked, prior to this discussion; on the other hand, Laughing Man brings up an important point that may rebut that general practice. With that in mind, I do think we should block, perhaps indefinitely. I can't bring myself to support a ban in this case, but I won't specifically oppose it either. – Luna Santin (talk) 02:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support block for now, we can re-evaluate this if that proves to be unsuccessful. PSUMark2006 talk | contribs 03:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I support block but I am strongly opposed to a community ban on a four day old account that has never been blocked before. I'm also rather shocked to see a proposal for a community ban before a request for a block. He might end up needing to be community banned, but he also might just need an education instead of having Yuser31415 edit warring over his userpage and threatening him with blocks. I find CroDome's behaviour and comments completely unacceptable but I also don't think the way this guy has been treated has helped the situation at all. Sarah 09:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can some admin block him then? I don't know for how long, I am not familiar with blocking. His actions up until now certainly warrant at least one block. Maîtresse 09:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I've blocked him for a week and I'm happy for that to be tweaked. Sarah 09:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Dunbar

I would like to contact the author of the piece on Charles Davidson Dunbar of Hamilton. I have some correspondence from William Dunbar, believed to be Charles's father, in some old fishing books. D. Maley <email removed by PT O 04:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)> —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.53.50.54 (talk) 03:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean by the "author of the piece on Charles Davidson Dunbar". Wikipedia is a wiki, and because of anybody can edit the article, so there are loads of "authors". That page is in dire need of cleanup, though. I'll clean it up when I get around to it, maybe. However, any help in cleaning up/expanding that page would be great for the encyclopedia. I hope this helps; I don't really understand your comment. Cheers, PT O 04:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IP user making personal attacks/civilty.

What should happen to this user? He has repeatedly violated WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL? He has been blocked for 12 hours. However, he has brought up unnecessary nonsense on the AIDS talk page, as well as other incidents. I was thinking about bringing this up with another admin, but I want to know what the community thought about this matter. Thanks. Real96 06:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Community ban request on User:GordonWatts

GordonWatts (talk · contribs) is a single-issue account whose single issue is Terri Schiavo. Through his entire time on Wikipedia, he has been vexatious, disruptive, argumentative, and intent on pushing his version of events on any all articles connected to Terri Schiavo. Things had stabilized after he went away about a year ago, but he's back with the same act. His latest is to press beyond all reasonable standards for the inclusion of external links to his personal Geocities/AOL Homepage websites, calling the newspapers on par with the New York Times -- or maybe even better, since he claims to be an authority. Despite universal opposition -- except for the brief resurfacing of an old POV-pushing comrade from the worst of the Terri Schiavo edit wars -- that the links utterly failed external link policies, he persists with disruptive, vexatious, long-winded, barely-connected-to-reality and garishly colored* elaborations. Check out the talk pages for Talk:Government involvement in the Terri Schiavo case and Talk:Terri Schiavo and you'll see what I mean.

His cranking out of thousands of words of his self-serving (helping to fill 40-odd pages of archives), garishly colored nonsense -- supported by (almost) no one -- filling up the talk pages is disruptive and distracting. It always has been, it is now, and -- given Gordon's track record of not understanding plain-English explanations to him, his sense of righteousness unencumbered by evidence or outside opinion, and his inability to disengage unless absolutely forced to (and even then merely as a pause before trying a different tactic later on) -- always will be. Enough is enough, and encouraging him is ill-advised. You'll note that even people who are sympathetic to him still get the full-on Gordon Watts loghorrea when contradicting him, which is as disruptive a way of driving off disagreement as I can think of not involving personal threats as I can imagine.

He's been told "no", but still he persists. Enough. He's not going to magically become better, and it's time he was shown the door. --Calton | Talk 13:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not a violation, actually, but really really annoying.

As noted here, in a timed display of similar thinking, I support this. For the record, I have never edited any article connected to the Terri Schiavo case and took a look at the incident because Gordon asked for help on the AN/I board. I see no indicators that this user is anything more than a single issue poster who's presence on the page is to ensure that he can engage in self-promotion, his actions are fundementally not "wikipedian" - they are to promote himself rather than build a better encyclopedia. Having said that, if editors felt this was too harsh, I would also support a limited community ban which restricts him from adding his own ~~newspapers~~ freely-hosted websites and editting Terri Schiavo related articles. --Fredrick day 13:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Fredrick day. Gordon is essentially only on Wikipedia to contribute to Terri Schiavo related articles, and his main interest has been adding his own sites to the articles (which are nearly unanimously considered to not meet WP:External links). A restriction from editing Schiavo case articles should be adequate. Leebo⁸⁶ 13:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As noted here, where I thanked others for participating, I have long stopped editing on the Schiavo articles (or any articles for that matter), and have accepted concensus. The few occasional replies to others' posts is not unreasonable; To ban a user for responding to a post to him sounds vindictive. (If you don't like what is posted and don't want me to reply to you, then simply ignore that page and don't post on it. I am not going to start talking to myself -or, if I do, then we can deal with that when, uh, I mean IF, it happens.) To ban a user who has stopped editing on the articles in question and accepted concensus is not necessary -and sounds like revenge for taking a stand. You're move.--GordonWatts 14:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I Support a community ban. First, as a disclosure because of the political nature of his disputes, I have never edited any of the articles related to Terri Schiavo or any of the related sociological or political issues. The issues with Gordon are long term and extreme enough for a community ban. He has repeatedly attempted to inject his point of view into the articles related to Terri Schiavo, but in a back handed, voluminous, and wikilawyering way. Separate from that, he has repeatedly tried to elevate his own status and stature by extreme self promotion. He has an obsession with the issue and with the dead woman, and one could argue that there are conflict of interest issues as well.

But that is not the crux of the issues with Gordon. He does not understand our Project's policies and guidelines, interprets and bends those he does for his own benefit rather than the benefit of the project or of the community. Nor does he, I believe, have the ability to understand our community norms. I do not believe that his acts are specifically malicious - but the volume and persistence of his acts and ignorance has long ago exhausted the community's patience. And he is annoying to an extreme level.

Multiple times he has said that he is leaving or cutting back his activities, only to not cut back at all or to later return full force.

Gordon has a talent, for sure, but his talents lie in churning out thousands of words on small issues, and repeating himself ad nauseum and in ignorance of those around him. As he is fond of reminding everybody and their cousin, he has his own websites. Wikipedia is not a sounding board for his views and obsessions. Gordon can not be fixed. I know it is extreme, but he needs to go away. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 14:30, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"extreme self promotion...our Project's policies and guidelines..." If you will note, Jeff, this disagreement about my websites is only a minor issue, with many other links being deleted willy-nilly. I'm not the only one to share that concern: If you note in this diff, one of my opponents even admits that "I'm active on other pages, and I'm finding that blogs and personal websites are being ruthlessly removed, with the instruction to find the same information elsewhere, or leave it out." So, you are focusing on someone who had long ago accepted concensus (a waste of time) -and don't focus on the bigger picture, the actual Wikipedia project you mention above, where other editors agree that there is a problem with "personal websites are being ruthlessly removed." As long as people post nonsense to me, I have a right to reply; If you don't want me to reply here in talk, then simply don't post to me; Simple as that. You seem to want to egg on the matter -even though I have not only accepted the concensus but also abided by it; You don't see me adding ANY links, those I support -or those I oppose. As a matter of fact, besides not editing on the article pages, I may not even reply to future posts in this thread, so I may just not edit at all. Then, what are you going to? Ban someone who posts an occasional reply to a talk page? Overkill. Your move.--GordonWatts 14:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"So, you are focusing on someone who had long ago accepted concensus" What exactly is "long ago" in this statement? It can't have been more than a day or so, because I only stumbled across this issue in the last few days. Leebo⁸⁶ 14:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In wikipedia parlance, a few days is a long time, because of the fast pace here. That I had accepted concensus before your post -and stopped editing on the article page before your post -and stopped even posting to the talk page -except to post in reply -is the salient point -which shows me that you are asking for something after the fact. If the only problem you perceive is me replying to your posts (since I am not editing the article -or threatening to), then the solution is simple: Just don't post to me, and I can't reply! I would, if I were you, do this. I may not even post a reply to this page -be put on notice: I have a real life -but your question seemed a sincere and good one. NOW, arighty: You all are going to have to take care of wikipedia, because you all won the concensus.--GordonWatts 14:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

a long time ago? today is a long time ago? --Fredrick day 14:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I support an article ban from subjects related to Terry Schiavo and an outright ban on linking his website, enforced if necessary by blacklisting it. Whether Gordon can be a productive editor elsewhere is unproven, let him prove himself, but there is little doubt that his edits to Schiavo articles have been disruptive and vain, and that cannot continue. he evidently has some capacity or self-delusion so I would like to clarify something: while numerous editors have been kind and patient explaining to Gordon why his actions are problematic, it would not matter where this material is hosted or who added the links, it fails WP:RS by a wide margin. The content itself is the problem, not where it is hosted or who added the links, although they are certainly the problem in terms of user conduct. This is precisely the kind of material we intended to exclude when WP:RS was written. Guy (Help!) 15:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I support banning him from pages related to Terry Schiavo, and blacklisting the links as promotional. He seems to be wasting people's time and misusing the talk pages to such an extent that it is interfering with the project. Tom Harrison ^Talk 15:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The applicable guideline is Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. Being annoying is just that - annoying, but I don't think there's any malice or ill motive in his actions. He just seems very dedicated to asserting that Terri Schiavo was murdered by Democrats and euthanasia is evil. It's not even a matter of admitting when he's wrong, as he will do so, but continue to press the case in a different way, failing to learn anything. I am in a dilemma. I do not want a ban at this point for Gordon, but I worry about what else can be done. I have tried reasoning with him on more than one occasion, and it has a short-term effect at best. A warning to knockit off won't work, as he's had those before, and a ban from editing Schiavo and related articles would be pointless, as he only edits Schiavo and related articles (n.b. - nothing wrong with a narrow focus - many very fine editors only edit one or a few articles). Being annoying and writing long messages on talk pages is his sole crime. He hasn't edit warred (much) over the links, just complained volubly on the talk page about their removal. Annoying: yes, disruptive: a little, but malicious: no. If he had just edit warred, he'd have got a 24 hour block, but because he spoke up (albeit at great length, over and over) he's being community banned? I don't like that. Suggest a self-imposed break, and if Gordon doesn't learn when he returns, then we're looking at a ban. But there's been no warnings about this, and so I cannot support a ban. Proto ► 15:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If all of Gordon Watts's claims on yesterday's edit which Frederick day listed above are true, then he is in violation of WP:COI. Corvus cornix 17:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot support a ban, per Proto. –King Bee ^{(T • C)} 20:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not personally familiar with the history here, but if an editor has been around a long time and still not found a way to make himself useful, and if he's causing harm to the project (even somewhat minor harm), simple cost/benefit analysis suggests that we'd be better off without him, right? Since his goals are apparently not compatible with the goals of Wikipedia, the solution seems obvious. Let him do his soapboxing on his own website, it's not useful here. Friday (talk) 20:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Community discussion on User:NuclearUmpf

Formerly User:Zer0faults, users sole contributions are edit warring on 9-11 conspiracy theories, edit warring on political arguments, and following editors he disagrees with to other artcles with the express intent of reverting them repeatedly without discussion. Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Informal Arbitration

See here —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Geo.plrd (talk • contribs).

Not a good idea for more bureaucracy imo. Our current system is fine; to introduce one whole new layer with no power and to call it "arbitration" is, pardon me, downright dumb. You seem to be obsessed with creating new levels of bureaucracy in Wikipedia, but we don't need this. WP:3O isn't supposed to be binding, there's no real reason for this. – Chacor 02:10, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It does, at first glance, appear like a new level of bureaucracy to me... perhaps I am missing something. I have also notified Geo.plrd (talk · contribs) of this discussion. Navou ^banter / _{review me} 02:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Given that he initiated this, I'm fairly sure he knows of it. – Chacor 02:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So I ~~am confused~~ stand corrected, I see hagermanbot did not sign the unsigned. :P Regards, Navou ^banter / _{review me} 02:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Side comment: Has this page been signed up for Hagermanbot yet?) Newyorkbrad 02:20, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Side reply: I understood, all I had to do was add the catagory, something else I missed?) Navou ^banter / _{review me} 02:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Guys, this is a proposal. I am trying to create a step that will take care of cases that fall between the cracks. I mean, what good is a 3O, if one user decides not to follow it. If you have any suggestions to make it better, I would love to hear them. G e o. Talk to me 02:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP:3O is supposed to be non-binding. If someone doesn't follow the measures, it can be considered a prior step in dispute resolution when going to ArbCom. I'm sorry, but I really think this isn't needed - at least not for this purpose. – Chacor 02:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

When you go to Arbcom, you tend to end up with somebody being sanctioned. This will clean up minor disputes without sanctions. G e o. Talk to me 02:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are plenty of levels of dispute resolution that don't give sanctions already. Just look at WP:MEDCAB, WP:MEDCOM, and WP:AMA. PT O 02:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Medcab is non binding, a user can agree to something and blow it off. Medcom sends rejected cases to Arbcom, blowing no sanctions out of the water. The AMA provides advice to users, and generally doesn't resolve disputes. None of these do what Arbcab will do. G e o. Talk to me 03:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

FYI - have cross-posted this to WP:AN for more input. – Chacor 02:39, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The basic idea of a small claims court is interesting. I don't think this idea is well enough developed. A few thoughts: what's small to one person is huge to another at Wikipedia. The scope of these binding decisions isn't defined and the bar for becoming a judge is set very low. Suppose, for example, that someone with 1000 edits handles a revert war and says You can revert five times a day just because they don't know the three revert rule. I'd set this on the back burner and let it percolate. Maybe it'll brew something good in time. Durova^Charge! 03:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think the problem is it would not be binding, unless ArbCom, or some new policy, made it so. It could be voluntary arbitration, which can can not institute remedies (blocks/bans), but can make an arbitrary decision on article disputes and such. That is probably a better way to do this. Prodego ^talk 03:07, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Without a binding quality it looks like very much like mediation or 3O. Durova^Charge! 04:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Considering that the arbitration committee is hesitant to resolve article disputes, and almost never does, there is no way a lower body should be doing that. Binding determinations on content are bad because they contradict Foundation issue #3, as well as our belief in the value of consensus. Christopher Parham (talk) 17:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

it is supposed to be voluntary, yet binding. The bar to become a judge is open to discussion. To prevent the scenario that Durova brought up, there would be a Community Advocate who would ensure that, say in that scenario, 3RR is brought up. G e o. Talk to me 03:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that people will flock to the idea of voluntary sanctioning. I imagine that people, when given the choice, will choose voluntary and non-binding mediation over voluntary and binding. PT O 03:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am actually in (as a 3rd party) dispute right now in which the parties probably would have agreed to some type of non blocking/banning arbitration (as in article content only in decision). WP:RFArb#Free Republic. It would be rare though. Prodego ^talk 03:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is supposed to be like a gentleman's agreement, not voluntary sanctioning. This will not be mediation. G e o. Talk to me 04:05, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think one needs to look up the definition of arbitration. The difference between mediation and arbitration is that mediation is non-binding, and arbitration is. If it wouldn't be binding, then it's not arbitration. Cheers, ✎ Peter M Dodge (Talk to Me) 00:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

it willi be binding G e o. Talk to me 02:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Who will enforce? Navou ^banter / _{review me} 02:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're missing the point. As noted above by Chris Parham, the Foundation does not make binding decisions on content. And that seems to be exactly what you want this to do. – Chacor 02:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am opposed to this proposal for many of the reasons mentioned. Do we really need another dispute resolution layer? Honestly, dispute resolution is confusing as it is. Users often don't use it because they don't know where to start. And yes, since the arbcom doesn't make binding content decisions, this couldn't either. --Woohookitty^Woohoo! 03:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

this is supposed to be like a binding third opinion. The sysops would enforce it. G e o. Talk to me 03:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It holds no authority. None. If a user breaks the "remedies", sysops cannot enforce anything. Unless the remedy comes from ArbCom, which sources its' power from Jimbo and is considered by Jimbo to be governing over all Wikipedia, people cannot be bound by the decisions. I oppose this, and it seems like yet another attempt to "grab power" by Geo: 1 2 3 4. Daniel.Bryant 21:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If two editors want a third party to resolve a dispute, what's stopping them from requesting a third opinion and agreeing to accept the result as binding on the two of them? I've participated quite a bit with 3O (as a giver and a solicitor of opinions), and in almost every case I see, the editors having the dispute accept the result and move on. That system works with a minimum of bureaucracy and fuss, and I can't see what this would add to it. As to binding decisions for content disputes, I can't say I'd be sorry to see such a thing, but any such "content arbitrators" would have to be similar to our current behavioral arbitrators-longstanding, highly trusted members of the community who have consistently shown excellent judgment, and who are appointed with the support of the community. Even then, there would be a lot of sticking points to work out, and I just don't think this is the right way to go about such a thing at all. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me Please review me!} 00:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's time to open your wallets...

Apparently Wikipedia might "disappear three or four months from now absent a major infusion of cash donations", according to Slashdot. The post quotes an article which quotes a blog which quotes Anthere as saying:

“

At this point, Wikipedia has the financial ressources [sic] to run its servers for about 3 to 4 months. If we do not find additional funding, it is not impossible that Wikipedia might disappear.

”

This has also made it to fark.com. Some more comments are made here, here and here. MER-C 11:27, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this belongs here. This is already being discussed at Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)#It's true?. --Ideogram 11:31, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And Jimbo calls BS: [10]. Titoxd^(?!?) 06:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]