User talk:Vintagekits

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Good job 2

If he doesn't take action, I will. SirFozzie 16:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Cheers.--Vintagekits 16:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Incivility

Please stop refering to me as Weggie Kernel Saunters 11:47, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I was informed that you are Weggie - p.s. whats uncivil/incivil about it anyway?--Vintagekits 11:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Michael Gaughan (Irish republican)

I think it could be useful information. But the medical explanation wasn't sourced — the law article didn't say anything about that. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 22:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I was wondering what the source of him being a member of OIRA was as I have never come across this claim before.--padraig3uk 02:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I added the source ya dimwit - I was also quite surprised to read it myself and I didnt know it.--Vintagekits 02:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't see that, first I ever heard of it, I wonder did he switch sides in prison, as the OIRA were defunct in all but name by then.--padraig3uk 02:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd say he switched prior to the bank raid but I dont know, I would say OIRA via C na hE was his idological entry into republicanism but didnt do feck all for them in reality and then he move to PIRA and entered the war for real but thats all guesswork.--Vintagekits 02:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Possible, as that would explain why it is seldom or never mentioned.--padraig3uk 03:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Gibnews

Hi Vintagekits and thank you for your message. Can you find me the diff where he said that? The one you sent me was of him removing the warning. You have done the right thing in raising the matter with me. Not to be picky, but why do you call me Gunniog? That never was my user name and I've been User:John for quite a while now. Best wishes; I will help you if I can. --John 01:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I gave him a last warning; I'm sorry to see that wasn't enough for you but I bristle at the accusation of double standards. Blocks are preventive, not punitive and I always give people a last chance to stop poor behaviour before blocking. I hope you can rein in any tendency to be uncivil in complaining about a matter based around civility, as I'm sure you can see how silly that would be. Let me know, please, if Gibnews continues to make problematic edits. --John 02:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

If it wasnt for the other two final warnings that you have given give (one for NPA and one for edit warring) then I might have consiered this final warning more seriously. Second;y, the reference to double standards is with reference to your asertion that you would like to block him because you would "too close" - pity that wasnt the case for me and especially ONiH for whom you became the straw that broke the camels back. slainte!--Vintagekits 02:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you had quite a few final warnings from me yourself over a period. I only blocked you in the end after a discussion at WP:AN/I. I declined ONiH's unblock request because he was continuing to behave badly. I repeat, I always give people a chance to improve because I believe established editors deserve that, however problematic their behaviour. As I'm sure you know, Gibnews was blocked by Tyrenius, so the result you wanted was achieved. I'd like to see you as part of your improvement plan put all these grudges from the past behind you. You could achieve a lot more if you did. --John 03:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I've been to confusion (its wikis version of confession!) and Fr. O'Leary has absolved me of my sins so as far as I am concerned its a clean(ish) slate.--Vintagekits 03:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Your protection of Template:Northern Ireland infobox

Hi Tariqabjotu, I'm not sure that your protection of that template is all that useful. When I first separated the infobox out of the main article (Northern Ireland) as a single-transclusion template, the intent was to keep the main article unprotected for other non-infobox related edits, while the dispute on the infobox played out. However, since the main article is currently unprotected, editors are able to create their own versions of the infobox and put it in the main article, completely bypassing the protected template. This has already happened. My attempt at dispute resolution was a failure. I think the proper course of action is to reverse my work and put the infobox code back inline into the main article and protect that instead. Thanks, Andrwsc 21:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

That might work. Perhaps this should be presented to WP:ANI for more feedback, however. Padraig3uk (talk · contribs) appears to have been disruptive with flags in a lot of places. -- tariqabjotu 22:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Can I comment on this, firstly Andrwsc, you did created a seperate template to allow the Northern Ireland article to be unprotected, something I agreed with, and also something I did myself in the past if you care to check through the edit history over the past 6 months, on that occassion the template was nominated for deletion by another editor involved in the dispute on the flag issue.

The template you created this time you didn't protect when you created it, dispite being told it would need protection to prevent an edit war, you then allowed one editor to reinsert the flag, and carry out 7 reverts in a 48hr period, before you protected the template and give that editor a warning about edit warring dispite the fact they had broken 3RR and should have been blocked from editing, yet you failed to revert the template back to it original state.

There are a small group of editors trying to use WP as a soapbox to promote a particular political POV on Northern Ireland the flag issue is only part of that they are also pushing the notion that all Northern Ireland people are Northern Irish as a ethic group or nationality, this is completely false as people in Northern Ireland can either regard themselves as British, Irish or with duel British/Irish nationality, Northern Irish is a Unionist creation.

I believe that WP should present the facts of the political situation in Northern Ireland, in this the Official Flag is the Union Flag, not the Ulster Banner. I also have no objection to the use of the Ulster banner in its proper context, when dealing with the period of 1921-72, I even used the Ulster Banner in this Template:Politics of Northern Ireland 1921-72 template I created to deal with the government and elections of that period, nor do I object to its use when dealing with sports people that identify with that flag or play in the commonwealth games under that flag. But I do object with their attempts to protray the Ulster Banner as representing Northern Ireland and its government today or since 1972.--padraig3uk 02:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I would second that, Padraig has done more than most to resolve this issue, I would assert that it is the actions of Astrotrain (talk · contribs) that we need to be looking at as I believe the he creates the problems regarding this issue on many pages. --Vintagekits 02:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Padraig's creation of a second template to avoid the protection for Template:Northern Ireland infobox says enough. -- tariqabjotu 02:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

A second template in my opinion is very necessary and has been discussed for some time on the Northern Ireland talkpage - I again see this as a great effort on his behalf to resolve this issue. --Vintagekits 02:36, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see where that was discussed. -- tariqabjotu 02:38, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

No problem, here is a good start and linked to threads either side.--Vintagekits 02:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

That thread has nothing to do with this template. -- tariqabjotu 02:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

It discusses creating the articles for which the Template:Politics of Northern Ireland 1921-72 would be used.--Vintagekits 03:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Vintagekits, we aren't discussing that template, but the infobox template I created to restore the Northern Ireland article back to the agree format before User:Setanta747 made his edits.--padraig3uk 03:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Michael Gaughan (Irish republican) II

Hello Vk. I was reading the above article that you have been contributing to and noted some serious issues with attributions. There are plenty of statements in this article that are written as facts, but when you read the sources they are most certainly not independent reliable sources. Just two examples:

• The funeral had embarrassed the anti-Republican Fine Gael/Labour coalition goverment in Ireland at the time and its then-Taoiseach, Liam Cosgrave is sourced to An Phoblacht. How on earth can the mouthpiece of one political party be an independent, reliable source of criticism of its opposition? This has to be attributed.

• Six to eight guards would restrain the prisoner and drag him or her by the hair to the top of the bed, where they would stretch the prisoner’s neck over the metal rail, force a block between his or her teeth and then pass a feeding tube, which extended down the throat, through a hole in the block, a description of the British method of forcefeeding, is sourced to NORAID. Again, this must be attributed, as the source is not independent.

Obviously, I could go ahead and do this myself, or bring it up on the talkpage. But I'm not really familiar with editing in this subject area, and first wanted to determine whether this sort of lack of attribution is the norm, and whether there would be protest about among the regulars. So I thought I would discuss it with your first.

Just to be clear, i'm not disputing the validity of this content, not am I saying that it is not accurate. I'm simply proposing that the content be attributed in the text, to make clear to the reader that this info is from sympathetic, rather than independent, sources. Rockpocket 08:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for the email Rocket, we have a long(ish) standing agreement with what some might call "editors of another persuasion" that these sources are used especially, An Phoblacht, as it is the largest political weekly in Ireland and was one of the primary sources of news for the republican and nationalist communities is the O6 for many years. Anyway the basis of the agreement is that these sources are 1, used as fact unless there is a source which contradicts the informaton, then 2, if there is contrasiting then its is attributed and finally 3, if same information can be found from what other editors deem to be a more neutral source then the reference from say An Phoblacht, Troops Out Movement etc then the references from those sources is removed and replaced with the new source. regards--Vintagekits 12:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok. That seems fair enough. Thanks. Rockpocket 19:32, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

And just what "persuasion" are you labelling me with VK? ;-) This is one of the articles we could apply the rationale to, the referencing could definitely be improved. Its a pain in the arse doing it though, which is why I haven't yet. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 08:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey Vk. I wonder if you could shed any light on some issues about Gaughan. Do you know if his conviction was on terrorist-related charges or just criminal charges (and by that I mean explicitly, obviously the motivations of the prosecution may have been political, even if the charges were explicitly criminal). Secondly, it appears from his hunger strike demands that he was never awarded special status, can this be confirmed? Rockpocket 18:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

To answer 1. I dont know is the answer as for 2. he may have had it at the very beginning of his internment but definately didnt at the end.--Vintagekits 19:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Michael Gaughan

Thanks for your message. Two points: Firstly I have indeed read WP:RS, and Noraid is a textbook example of a questionable source. To quote: 'A questionable source is one with no independent editorial oversight or fact-checking process, or with a poor reputation for fact-checking. This includes websites and publications that express political, religious, anti-religious, or racist views that are widely acknowledged as extremist.' Noraid is therefore fine as a source for Republican perceptions of Michael Gaughan, but as a source for a NPOV description of British force-feeding methods, or the political impact of the hunger-strikers it is entirely useless, being about as partisan and unbalanced as it is possible for a source to be.

Second point: I am concerned about the use of the term 'Volunteer' for IRA members on Wikipedia. To me this seems to be favouring the IRA POV (that they are a legitimate army and therefore entitled to be addressed by their ranks) over the British POV (that they are criminals/terrorists). The neutral description would seem to me to be 'members'. I'm guessing that this has come up before: is there any discussion or guideline that you could point me to? Thanks.--86.31.225.153 22:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

1, Have you got any proof that the Noraid article has a. "no independent editorial oversight" b. "no fact-checking process" or c. "a poor reputation for fact-checking." - actually if you read the articles on their website that totally debunks that issue. 2. If you read the article Volunteer (Irish republican) you will understand that its a rank. If consider members of the British Army to be terrorist, murderer or criminals (which many people do) would that negate that fact that they held a rank in that organisation no matter how lowly they would consider that organisation or rank?--Vintagekits 22:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

1)Noraid claims on the front page of its website to be 'the voice of Irish Republicanism in America'. Nothing wrong with that - but it clearly means it is partisan on the subject of Irish Republicanism. Its entire purpose is to support the Irish Republican POV, not to be a neutral conduit of balanced information about Ireland. It does not claim to be independent in the way that the New York Times or the Sydney Daily Telegraph would claim to be when writing about Ireland. This does not mean that everything in it is POV or incorrect, just that we cannot rely on anything in it to be NPOV. 2) The difference between the British Army and the IRA for Wikipedia purposes is that the British Army is, de facto and de jure, the army of an internationally-recognised state with control over its territory, recognition from its neighbours and the UN, and subject to international law. None of this applies to the IRA, which is only recognised as an army by its supporters. This is true even if you consider members of the British army to be criminals and murderers - they are, objectively, an army in the legal sense: it is this that entitles them to be known by their ranks.--86.31.225.153 22:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

1. Neutrality is a quality that is in scarce supply with regards the issue of NI, and to claim that a Unionist paper like that Daily Telegraph is a paragon of neutrality speaks volumes to me. Also neutrality does not preclude a source from being reliable per WP:RS. 2. The point I was making is that like it or not that the IRA has systems, ranks as well as anArmy Council, Chief of Staff, Quartermaster General,Divisions, Brigades [1] [2], North and South Command etc in its organisation - it exists we all have to deal with it.--Vintagekits 22:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: Names.

Thanks. Was just about to leave you a message saying well done with the work you've done to the Vol. Michael Gaughan article. Keep up the good work. Derry Boi 20:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Cheers a chara, Vol. Frank Stagg is next up.--Vintagekits 20:50, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I added some info the Frank Stagg article earlier, also sorted the sources on Special Category Status and removed the tag.--padraig3uk 10:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Cool.--Vintagekits 10:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Dia duit

Go raibh maith agat a chara, conas tá tú inniu? Scalpfarmer 10:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Ta me go mhaith - failte romhat i do cumann a chara.--Vintagekits 10:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Sláinte chugat. Cárb as duit? Is as Dún Dealgan mé. Scalpfarmer 10:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Prisoner of war category

I'm not sure this category is appropriate. It should probably be discussed before being inserted into all IRA articles. I'll maybe start a conversation at the WP:IWNB. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 10:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll stop for now. Crack on with the discussion.--Vintagekits 10:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Started it at the IWNB. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 10:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Tom William's

Hello Vintagekits, could you look over my edits? Seen it on the project page as needing work. Regards--Domer48 20:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

That Article

[3] has it. Let me know when you feel it's ready for prime time, and I'll undelete the article SirFozzie 23:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Mairéad Farrell

As I already explained to you, Member/Volunteer is not an option. Please revert. --John 00:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I've explained to you the ruling of the mediation cabal. Now if you want to start a new mediation cabal then crack on but your not going to bully me.--Vintagekits 01:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Can't see anything there that justifies your position. Tell you what, I'm getting tired of your incivility as well. --John 01:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

You keep shouting about incivility - I havent been uncivil - just because you dont like the point I am putting across doesnt mean I am being uncivil.--Vintagekits 01:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi again Vintagekits. Can you please explain how the ruling justifies always capitalising the word "volunteer"? According to our MoS this is wrong. I'm looking at the sentence "Lower case "v" should be used for the time being." Thanks in advance. --John 18:31, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

No a lower case v wont be used in the mean time - read the mediation cabal ruling and then read the article talk page.--Vintagekits 18:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I was quoting from the cabal ruling. I already quoted you the MoS section. I have lots of patience but it isn't infinite. --John 18:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Hey VK.. just step it down a bit man. I just noticed this on my last go round on WP before tying to catch 120 winks or so (got a killer bug and currently feeling like a steamroller ran over me..) Let me read the section and see what's going on and we can see where we need to go on it. SirFozzie 18:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

No probs Fozz. The cabal stated that the capitalisation of Volunteer should be further discussed on the talk page, it was then agreed that it was to be capitalised. P.S. hope you get better soon mate--Vintagekits 18:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

VK, this is what I'm seeing. Remember two things, A) That I'm looking over this quickly, and B) I'm not as sharp as I normally am, anyway. I'm gonna have to agree that John looks correct so far. I'll provide my reasoning in a new section below. Remember, I don't have the experience that you guys have with this whole thing (read a good article on sports as it pertains to the situation, I should send you the link someday when I can find it again.) SirFozzie 18:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Clinton Picture

You might want to back that up with some evidence.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Fermanagheditor (talk • contribs)

I am asking you a question. also - please sign your comments.--Vintagekits 01:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I dont know anything about signing comments as im new to wikipedia and I wont be signing this comment.

I see you have got yourself a bit of a negative reputation here on wikipedia thus my reason for deciding to ignore and delete any future comments from you.

P.S wikipedia should be respected. Its been very benefical for me and I and im sure many other users would appreciate a bit of respect from you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Fermanagheditor (talk • contribs)

So despite banging on about WP:AGF you are blatantly failing to adhere to this and also convieniantly ignoring the issue of copyright violation - interesting.--Vintagekits 01:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I have uploaded the pictures under 'my own work' and have stted on ALL pictures that i took he myself so is there any point in e answering any queston when the answer is on the image ta? --Fermanagheditor 03:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

still no very civil but at least you are signing your posts so thats something.--Vintagekits 02:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This new user uploaded a bunch of images and tagged them as his own work. Unless you actually have evidence that he did not take this pictures, you MUST assume good faith. Why? If he's going to lie about it the first time, he'll lie about it the second time, too. Therefore, asking for a "confirmation" is a waste of time (if he's not being truthful) and rude (if he is being truthful). Now I know you don't want to spend your days wasting your time or being rude - so your best bet is to think of something else to do - like finding outside evidence that the images are copyvios - or complimenting the new user on his helpful contributions. Rklawton 02:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Two points - 1. I did say he did I asked him to confim if he did take the shots, 2. an admin has deleted the pics cos he obviously had doubts about them. I did assume good faith but as you can see if you look through the editors recents edits that he is acting a little irrationally!--Vintagekits 02:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

My reading of the MedCab case

Consensus on IRA member and volunteer

Where the initial definition occurs in the lead section, it should firstly be stated that a person is a member of the IRA. The term volunteer should then normally be mentioned. Lower case "v" should be used for the time being. In the main text of an article the word, volunteer, is free to be used, but this has to be judged in each particular instance to achieve maximum sense and good style. It should not be used rigidly and other terms such as "IRA member" can also be used or any other appropriate reference. Different terms can be interspersed, and may vary from article to article.

(Signed agree) Vintagekits 17:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything after that that would indicate disagreement with the MedCab results. And I tried to look for it, man. Hope you take this in the spirit offered, and to see where the other side is coming from. Off to bed, then.... SirFozzie 18:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

here mate, the reason that I agreed to the cabal resolution was that this issue was to be discussed further. The two main protagonists on either side were myself and Logistic and both of us agreed that it was to be a capital V.--Vintagekits 18:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Your individual agreement with another user, while meritorious in a way, does not for a moment override the MedCab decision or Wikipedia's Manual of Style. I can't think why you would believe that it could. If you look one section down on the talk page you refer to you can see a reasonable summary of the position from Tyrenius. Please make sure you adhere to it in future. Thanks. --John 19:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense, ask Tyrenius, he was the one that stated that we should agree that between us what the issue of the capitalisation should be. YOU ADHERE TO IT!--Vintagekits 19:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you show me where Tyrenius gave you and another user permission to decide consensus between yourselves on a usage that contradicted both MedCab and MoS? No offence, but I find that very hard to beleive. --John 19:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Why dont you post a messege on his talk page if you require clarification. I feel like I may become uncivil relatively soon, so I am going to disengage.--Vintagekits 19:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

(deindent) That's fine. I don't think I am getting anywhere in discussing your behaviour with you directly so I intend to take it up with SirFozzie as you are supposed to be on parole. Best wishes, --John 19:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

No one has had a problem with me -except you, and shocking you were the one that blocked me - you are bullying me, you have done for some time and I am pretty sick of it. What you want me to do is bow down you whatever you say at every turn and if I dont you say I have been uncivil - which I havent. I would actually appricate if you never posted on this talk page again and stayed away from me as you seem to be the main root of the trouble that ever comes my way. I mean all this in the strictest wiki sense. regards--Vintagekits 19:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Advice

Hello Vk. I'm going to offer a bit of unsolicited advice here, which you are entirely free to ignore, of course, but I hope you will at leat think about it. I wonder if you ever consider why you seem to find yourself almost perpetually in conflict with other editors? Of course, you certainly edit in controversial areas, and that is obviously part of it, but there is more to it that that. I edit on controversial areas all the time, but generally get on pretty well with most other editors.

Consider an editor makes a few comments about something that are perfectly civil and appropriate [4], immediately you strike an aggressive an accusatory tone [5], report the editor as a sock to an admin [6] with no good evidence whatsoever. For some strange reason SirFozzie appeared to have taken your assumption as Gospel and indef blocked this user on the most flimsy of circumstantial evidence. This is the most egregious failure of WP:AGF, starting a chain reaction leading to a terribly unjustified block. This would be bad enough, but when it eventually gets sorted out and the blocked editor - perfectly civilly - notes your role in this mess [7], you don't apologise, nor to you even acknowledge your actions. What you do is delete the comment with a rather incivil "be gone". [8]

My point is that to be a successful Wikipedian, we have to address other editors with a basic level of respect and civility, whether they agree with you on any specific issue or not. This editor afforded you that respect and in response you have treated him very poorly indeed. This is a perfect example of why you meet conflict at every turn here. I don't know the reason for it, whether it is just your attitude towards the purpose of the project, or whether you don't see a problem with it, but this sort of constant borderline incivility is problematic. Each comment or act in itself may seem insignificant, but it appears to be continual and the sheer weight of conflict is a huge energy sink for those editors drawn into it. In the past you have argued you are simply responding to what you see as incitement from other editors (cf. John in the section above), but I can't find a single incivil word or act from Hegertor (talk · contribs) to justify this response (apart from the fact you are convinced he is a sock of someone you had a run in with in the past).

So, my request to you is twofold. Firstly please seriously consider WP:AGF and use it. Sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry is always outed in the end (as you are painfully aware), so there is no need to act on rash accusations without proof. Secondly, can't you just be a bit nicer to people? Would it make you less of a man to respond to to Hegertor's reminder with, "thank you for your comments, they are duly noted", then delete it (as is your right)? Because your perpetually anatagonistic tone is counterproductive to both you and the project and it will only be tolerated for so long. Thanks for your consideration. Rockpocket 18:22, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Rather one sided view but I that your point. If you had to dealing with the literally 100's of socks of RMS then you would understand - obviously Sir Fozzie thought the same and he did unblock him but still had concerns over the account. I still believe Hegator is a sock if not of RMS then of someone else - all you need to do is read his first three edits and if that doesnt convince you then I dont know. Additionally how come I've never had any conflict with anyone over any of my boxing articles? strange that! Anyway point taken. --Vintagekits 18:30, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually I have my own pet banned troll that has, literally, hundreds of socks (see here and here), so I know exactly what it is like. Some have taken a while to confirm though, because its really important not to block unless you are convinced. Blocks are not punitive, therefore there is no good reason to block if there is no immediate threat to Wikipedia, or you are convinced it is a banned/blocked user.

Remember it is not against policy to have a number of accounts, nor is it against policy for an experienced editor to disappear and reappear under a new account. In fact I'm reasonably sure an erstwhile colleague of yours who left recently has done exactly that, but that is his right to remain anonymous. So whether Hegertor has edited previously is not really an issue, even if he is a previously blocked editor, so long as he edits constructively and civilly now, is it really a problem? If Hegertor is some persistent troll, then his true colours will be revealed in time and he will be dealt with. In the meantime, this is where WP:AGF comes in.

Anyway, thanks for considering my comments in the manner they are meant. Rockpocket 05:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: NI Infobox Template

Why is the template saying the Union Flag is the official flag and then not including it? I've replied to your comments about the FAI League of Ireland on my talk page. Regards. -MichiganCharms 21:44, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Because its not the flag of Northern Ireland, if you are interested in contributing to the discussion with regards this topic please for to the talk page of the Northern Ireland article.--Vintagekits 21:47, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Boxing

Clearchoice here - Thanks for the welcome. I'm an ex-boxer myself...interesting pages you've put up. I'm no expert on Wikipedia so thanks for your offer of assistance!— Preceding unsigned comment added by Clearchoice (talk • contribs)

No prolem mate, if you need any help or guidance just just me a shout.--Vintagekits 11:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)--Vintagekits 11:24, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

NPA

Vk. This is unacceptable. You need to WP:COOL off now and take a break. If you repeat this sort of language I will block you per the terms of your probation. Please chill and come back when you can discuss matters without resorting to personal attacks. You will not be warned again. Rockpocket 21:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

What are you going to do about his provokation. I was the one behind the compromise from the start and trying to bring editors together on this issue and then he thinks he can talk to me like that!--Vintagekits 21:47, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Terry Magee

Hi, Look, I'm afraid you're wrong on this one. Betws is not part of Ammanford (there's a river between the two). I could give some very precise references for Terry's address but I'm not sure he'd want this personal data posted so prominently. As you said, you don't know the area. I live here. I appreciate the situation is confusing but believe me, many people use 'Ammanford' as shorthand for this whole area which is why so many references give it as his home town. Ewen 11:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I dont doubt the information is correct, I would wouldnt be surprised in you know Terry very well and I am sure what you are saying in correct and he lives in Betws - however, the two references say he lives in Ammanford. Wiki works on verifability not truth - please read WP:V. If you can get a source per WP:RS that counteracts the two existing sources then I would be happy to look at them. regards--Vintagekits 11:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, in the reference I gave [9] it does state that he lives in Betws (26th OCTOBER 2000 - THREE OF SEVEN "TERRY MAGEE ...is due back to his home in Betws...") and given that the postal town for the whole area is 'Ammanford' then it's not a contradiction to find references saying he lives in Ammanford when to be specific he lives in Betws.

Ewen 11:58, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Listen, like I said I dont really care where the guy lives - Boxrec says - Ammmanford and so other references say "Known famously to those in Ammanford for is out standing commitment to the community" - but if he lives in Betws crack on and stick it in. It doesnt bother me at at.--Vintagekits 12:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

The current situation

The system does work, if you let it.. just have to be patient.. I keep telling you and domer that. :) SirFozzie 21:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I hear ya!!--Vintagekits 21:33, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

You have been Blocked

VK, I've asked you to keep a cool head and walk away when you get in these situations. No getting the last word, just walk away, Unfortunately, you have crossed over the line. I don't CARE what other people are saying to you at some points. You need to be the bigger man in these situations. I told you that if you let the system work, it works. You didn't here. I'll see you tommorrow. SirFozzie 22:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, I wont be uncivil and say what I think of John, looks like he's got his wish and his bait has caught its prey. I will be gracious and take it on the chin, oiche mhaith a chara. Tiocfaidh ar la!!!!--Vintagekits 22:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Tobermore Again

Contact admin for me doing what? Moving what Tobermore means and is derived from in one of Northern Ireland's minority languages to the section (Location and Name Origin) following on straight after the introduction? I was just stopping unneeded repetition and cutting down on the clutter in the introduction, hence the creation of the Location and Name Origin section.

You can't say i was trying to erase your Irish identity from the page especially as i put it in the following section and since i myself put the Irish meanings of Tobermore and Calmore into the article in the first place. If your edit was politically motivated as some of your edits on articles have been in the past, i would like to ask you to please stop with political POV edits. Mabuska 19:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I am not pushing a political POV and do not appricate the accusation - I have been very fair with you in the past and have assisted you when you were a new user and dont appricate this breach of WP:AGF. It is standard practice to have the Irish name of places throughout Ireland followed by the Irish version of that name. You unecessarily removed this without any reason given or any discussion opened. Also when did I say that ypu were trying to erase your Irish identity?? Also I never edited the article I dont understand how or why you can say your edit was politically motivated as some of your edits on articles have been in the past, i would like to ask you to please stop with political POV edits - can I request you read both WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL before you continue editing.--Vintagekits 20:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll only refute by saying that i said at the start of what you (partially) quoted If your edit. I said IF. I wasn't saying that it WAS politically motivated but IF. Funnily enough you ommitted the IF from your quote which included every other word in the sentence. So you can't say i was saying that you where definately 100% politically motivatedly editing articles. I said IF which implies, that you maybe or maybe not editing with political motivation. There is no malice in that insinuation, only a raise of an eyebrow as you have previously edited other articles with a POV that can be interpreted as politically motivated. I don't feel that raising an eyebrow to such a matter is a breach of WP:NPA or WP:CIVIL Mabuska 21:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I am getting pretty tired of your unfounded accusations. Have you read the policies that I requested you did?--Vintagekits 21:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I quite clearly explained my comment in my above response and on the point of those NPA and CIVIL articles, where you not recently banned for incivility. If an admin thinks i am in breech of those articles then i will accept it and won't protest. And pointing out POSSIBLY politically motivated POV edits isn't a crime or in breech of Wikipedia standards - rather it is something that i assume Wikipedia would look into seriously to ensure neutrality. Mabuska 21:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Yer bang out of order actually, I left you a perfectly polite messege regarding the Tobermore article and you come on here with all sorts of unwarranted accusations. What politically motivated edits have I ever made to the Tobermore article or when have I been uncivil to you and what makes you think you can be uncivil to me?--Vintagekits 21:34, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

A Request

As a conscientious editor concerned to improve Wikipedia, you might like to signify your assent to participate in Community Enforced Mediation regarding articles about Ireland, Northern Ireland and its people and groups by signing up Here.If you have any questions on what it would entail, please do not hesitate to ask SirFozzie on his talk page or via email.

Basically, VK, what this would be for is to get all the disagreements out, and start hammering out a set of rules (1 RR, as we discussed, except on ALL sides.), and higher level of civility. Basically, it's to stop the pointless back and forth sniping (on both sides).. get people focused on improving the encyclopedia instead of spending all their time doing and undoing each others work. It's worth a shot, at least. SirFozzie 14:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes/No? Sorry VK to kinda push this, but we're getting about a week on this, and I haven't heard from you on this. I'm also getting pinged on a couple comments you're making.. And while in general, even folks on the other side have said in general you're getting better.. there's still areas apparently where I need to work with you. Shoot me an email if you have a free moment, I am exceptionally busy today at work, but I will work with you anytime. SirFozzie 17:14, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Tyrenius' talk page

Reply here, but again, apologies. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 14:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Replaceable fair use Image:Bernard_Dunne5.jpg

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Help

Thanks for the offer of help figured out what I was trying to do if stuck again is it ok to ask you for assistance? BigDunc 14:51, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Naughty words

Please would you be consistent in your position and agree the position with BB: Jean McConville was not murdered but, in reference to Gibraltar, "Whats desparate times - the unarmed ASU were surrendering and then murdered.--Vintagekits 08:26, 25 July 2007"...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 17:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Is this necessary, this could have been brought up on the article talk page, It looks like your trying to harass editors you disagree with, I think it would be better if you refrained from this.--padraig 18:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Appearances can be deceptive

VK knows why I don't bother to e-mail him, and this inconsistency of wording applies on more than 100 separate article pages - to raise it on each individually really would be harrassment!

This really is not academic since we need to harmonise and make consistent across the project the use of "Naughty words". Thanks for alerting me to your point of view....Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 18:25, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Indef block

I have extended you block for an indefinate period due to threats of physical violence, gross personal and sectarian attacks and indicating you will engage in further meatpuppetry. I will ask for a review of this myself, therefore you do not need to. I will leave this page for you to plead your case, should you have a change of opinion, but be aware that if you continue to use this page as a platform for soapboxing or personal attacks, I will protect it. Rockpocket 01:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Due to continued abuse from Vintagekits, I've protected this page. This will have the effect of limiting Vintagekits's ability to make a case here. Rklawton 03:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Unprotected

At Vintagekits request, I have unprotected the talk page (the only page he can edit while blocked). Please do not come here to gloat or attempt to wind up VK any further. SirFozzie 18:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Fozzie.--Vintagekits 18:23, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Foz, I've been away chillin out. I'm gonna stay off for a month and then request that I am aloud back but not to edit on republican articles for a further six months. How does that sound?--Vintagekits 18:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I would support that request.

But only if the list of "republican articles" is published in your (SirFozzie's) talk space first, publicised in appropriate article discussion areas (ie most of the embargoed articles) and then a period of 7 days allowed for the community to add to the "six month embargoed" list.

I would also suggest, as a preventative measure, an escalating series of edit blocks beginning at 1 hour and only rising in 1 hour increments to try and correct breaches of policy (obviously including edit warring and personal attacks). VK's editing skills have improved with leaps and bounds and it would be a notable educational achievement to welcome him back as a conscientious editor.

The penultimate, and obviously controversial, proposal I would make is a ban on "Admin shopping" by VK. You, SirFozzie have a certain amount of respect in the community which is not shared by infallible admins like Tyrenious and Alison

The final, and obvious, proposal I would make is a 3 month ban on my editing any article I have not edited previously and before his return that he has edited after his return so as not to run the risk of antagonising him...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 19:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

VK, I think that sounds reasonable, and I'd support that. Foz is away ill at the moment, but I'll see that he gets the message - "Infallible" Alison ☺ 19:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Alison, please would you clarify whether it is an unconditional return that you support or one with the conditions I have described?...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 19:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Some of the conditions I see as reasonable, some I do not. Overall, a conditional return would be okay. - Alison ☺ 20:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful if you would clarify exactly which of my proposed conditions are unacceptable. Sorry to press you, Alison, but I think it might be helpful to Vintagekits if he knew exactly what behaviour was expected...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 20:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

That's neither mine nor your decision to make. All I can do is state that I'm okay with a conditional unblock. Appropriate behavior for all of us is already well established by WP:NPOV, WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, etc, etc. As I'm not directly involved in VK's issues, I'll defer to SirFozzie on what the best approach is. - Alison ☺ 20:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand the blocking admin is usually involved in such decisions? I've notified him. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 22:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with Alison, we have policies and I would not support policies being made ad hoc, by anyone.--Domer48 22:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd support resetting the block to something like 2 weeks (in all). VK did ban me from this page so I hope he wont object to me commenting here but he is unquestionably a useful editor and if people have issues with his behaviour we have disputre resolution processes and an arbcom; I am not comfortable with this user being indefinitely blocked without coming up in front of the arbcom first, and that is definitely following our policies and guidelines, SqueakBox 22:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it is not unusual for a user to be indef blocked without coming in front of Arbcom. Vk is not banned, his block should only stand as long as his contributions are likely to be disruptive to the smooth and proper functioning of the project, as they clearly were when I issued the block. I indicated I would let others decide on whether Vk's block should remain. I stand by that and will not object to his unblocking should any admin choose to do so for whatever reason. For what its worth, my personal opinion is that Vk's problems on Wikipedia stem from his editing of articles and talk pages related to Irish Republicanism. Should he steer clear of these either by choice or by an enforced ban, I don't see any good reason to enforce a block. Should he continue to edit these article, though, then I think he will continue to be a disruptive influence and see little point unblocking at this time. I should also note, though, that any repeat of the behaviour the led to the current block would, from me at least, lead to it being immediately re-instated. Rockpocket 02:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Would that be a slective block then, i.e. not editing Republican articles? Is that an existing policy option, as I have already indicated I'm opposed to any ad hoc policys? --Domer48 08:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

It wouldn't be a block. It would be a ban on certain articles. There is plenty of precedent for this, usually through ArbCom, which is a last resort, and if things can be settled before that stage, then it is best to do so. The ideal is an agreement between the editor whose conduct is at question and other relevant editors/admins to resolve any problem. Tyrenius 10:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd have no problem with Vk coming back, under the terms he has proposed himself above. Note, though, that Vk's "problem areas" are not necessarily limited to the "Irish Republican" sphere of influence but could be extended to include "anti-British". See here for a past example. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 08:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I note yer concerns, hence the reason that I have offered to not edit republican articles (and to be more specific so there there can be no debate about it that includes all articles with WP:IR which I think covers all republican and republican linked articles) and then after I have earned the trust of Fozzie again I will request the "full membership" is reinstated.--Vintagekits 10:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree with lift. I thought that some editors were talking about a fresh start. I don't believe that making threats against Vk at this stage is making a fresh start. However I hope something is done about the continuous trolling on the relevant pages, this is the real problem, and these are the editors that sneak in and out and rarely ever get blocked. GH 10:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Huh? Noone is making threats, against Vk or anyone else for that matter. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 12:52, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I expect GH is referring to my indication that I will re-block Vk again if the same circumstances arise. I think it is Vk's interests to be straight with him about that and I don't think it is particularly controversial considering the circumstances that led to the block. If that is considered a threat, then so be it (though the fact blocks are not punitive, rather discounts that in my eyes). Rockpocket 19:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

• There is no place on Wikipedia for users who continually intimidate others, and even threaten violence!, to continually push their PoV. Vintagekits is one such user. --Counter-revolutionary 10:16, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

• I've had a lovely break and wont be rising to that!--Vintagekits 10:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I think Vintagekits offer to refrain from editing these articles is a fair offer and he should be allowed to show good faith by having his block lifted.--padraig 10:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

...and I don't. Just as you have your opinion I have mine. --Counter-revolutionary 10:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes you give your opinion and I give mine, so why the need for your comment above.--padraig 11:25, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

An indefinite block remains in place until such time as an admin is prepared to lift it. Alison and Rockpocket have already stated they consider it can be lifted on a conditional basis. Tyrenius 11:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Take it the arbcom and let them sort it out as a neutral party. Badgerpatrol 11:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I think VK offer is reasonable and clear. That it is self imposed, I would have no problem. --Domer48 13:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggested conditions

How about this (I'd ideally want admins to comment, but any constructive criticism would be fair).

The unblock would be lifted under the following conditions

1) VK observe a MININUM 6 month topic-ban on all republican and republican-linked articles. Once six months are up, we can look at VK's editing , and response to provocations and the like, and look at lifting this topic-ban. 2) VK agree (as he did before) to a 1 RR on all topics. 3) Depending on how my illness goes, I may or may not be able to fully mentor VK.. hopefully in a few weeks when I can get back to editing fully, I can resume my duties. Right now, my WP editing is limited to 1/2 times a day. If I can't I will try to get another, neutral admin to help mentor VK.

Fair enough? SirFozzie 13:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

aye.--Vintagekits 13:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll endorse that. Furthermore, I'll agree to mentor if VK and others are okay with that. I don't edit such articles myself as a rule - Alison ☺ 18:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't object to that, though in the interests of clarifying exactly what that self-imposed topic ban would entail, would Vk exclude himself from contributing to associated talkpages and XfDs also? Rockpocket 19:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Slight problem with that; Vk's PoV-pushing has not always been restricted to Republican articles in the past. Maybe if we made it boxing-only? --John 19:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems a tad too restrictive to me. VK could get indef' for fixing a typo in, say cheese, because it's not boxing-related. Opt-out, not opt-in - Alison ☺ 20:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Why not just say "dont get involved in political articles", ie any politically charged articles, that way places in Ireland say are great but eg Flags is not a good idea. A more liberal approach would be to jsut say dont get involved in disputes over political articles as adding to the Republicanism articles in a non-controversial way could help expand the encyclopedia without anybody minding. Its the conflicts that need avoiding, SqueakBox 20:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The conflicts appear to arise whenever he takes part in anything to do with Ireland or Britain. One previous attempt at mentoring having failed I'd say the onus is now on Vk to be flexible, rather than the community. --John 20:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

• I wouldnt agree to that. The restriction of staying off articles in within WP:IR is explicit definition and sets a defined list or category of articles and leaves no debate as to what I should or shouldnt be editing. Also I would say that blocking from associated talkpages would be counterproductive. The reason I myself have offered this solution is to show that I can be trusted - I know I am on my last chance and I will need to show a level of maturity and by editing the talk pages this will benefit me in a few ways 1. it will show that I am able to approach subjects in a logical and retional manner, 2. it will show that I am able to not rise when baited (which I am sure a number of editors will attempt to do) and most importantly 3. it will get my used to solely solving issues on talk pages instead of getting involved edit wars - to that end I would also agree Fozzies suggestion of 1RR. Finally, I would disagree that Fozzies mentoring didnt work. I think must editors would agree that my contributions to wiki had improved significantly - fair eough I let him down with one drunken late night spate of editing but I wouldnt say that that was the failing of Fozzies mentorship.--Vintagekits 10:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting you do that, simply asking if that was what you were proposing. Personally, I think if you did stay off controversial talk pages and AfDs you would have a better chance at keeping your cool and thus be less likely to find youself losing you temper again and getting reblocked. Nevertheless, if you can engage with other editors and remain civil then all credit to you, and that would be a strong indicator that the partial ban can be lifted sometime in the future without worry. As far as I'm concerned its your choice as to how restrictive you wish the conditions be. You appear to be very aware that it really would be a last chance, so if you feel that you can handle talkpage editing on controversial issues (and the inevitable conflict that will arise) then great, go for it. Rockpocket 20:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I made 2 suggestions so perhaps the no political articles would be best, SqueakBox 20:28, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think its fair to block an editor from commenting on an articles talk page, even if he has agreed to not personaly edit the article itself, that would stop him from pointing out errors on those article that other can correct, or engaging in discussions on content within that article.--padraig 13:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Any restriction should only be to articles, ie never to talk pages, SqueakBox 17:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

SirFozzie your conditions set above contain a massive loophole. VintageKits has come into conflict on articles that aren't just WP:IR or political. Its also articles to do with Britain and Britishness that conflict with Irish republican ideals. So i'd suggest a ban on him editing WP:IR and ANY article (politically and non-politically) that deals with Ireland and Britishness and Britains role in foreign territories. Irish republicanism and anti-Britishness go hand in hand. Mabuska 13:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment, on 26th July user Rockpocket wrote the following "Vitagekits. I have blocked you for 31 hours for persistant low level incivility", so why the extreme conditions? GH 20:31, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Because immediately after the 31 hour block for low level incivility, further things were said. See the top of the page. See the page history. But I believe you're aware of this anyway, as you commented on the block on AN/I at the time. Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 22:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

What "extreme conditions" are you referring to? Rockpocket 00:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Rockpocket, my fault. That question is addressed to SirFozzie. GH 01:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Please may I comment on all this compassion as someone who has been, on numerous occasions, at the receiving end of Vintagekits vitriol. The first thing I would say is that the template says he is indefinitely blocked. Does this now mean that indefinite is only temporary? I have no great interest in Irish affairs but when I strayed into that arena once, many months ago, because I objected to the sanitisation of a terrorist organisation responsible for countless innocent deaths, all hell broke loose upon me led mainly by Vintagekits who then proceeded to goad me constantly. Silly me, I reacted accordingly and one of the pro-Irish lobby then placed a short ban on me for being uncivil!! So all very cosy, I thought at the time. Vintagekits and his pal One Night in Hackney, not being content with that, also proceeded to articles I had commenced or made major contributions to and changed them or at least tagged them causing an unnecessary degree of worry and harrassment to someone who carries out his research and writes Wiki articles in valuable time and good faith. At the same time, Vintagekits was engaged in arguments with User:Kittybrewster and set upon, with several fellow travellers, using all manner of Wiki Rules they could locate, a campaign of tagging articles he had commenced or made major contributions to as Articles for Deletion. I do not propose to enter upon the merits of this or that article. The question is: was Vintagekits the slightest bit interested in any of these articles? Answer: no he wasn't. What I am saying here is that Vintagekits has amply demonstrated that he will oppose and harrass anyone on Wikipedia he does not like or who demonstrates opposition to edits he has made. Discussion is utterly pointless because his responses are similar to listening to a broken record or otherwise intellectually insulting and designed to wind you up to fever pitch. I for one would oppose his return. You have to ask yourselves whether leopards do change their spots. David Lauder 13:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

See User_talk:David_Lauder#WP:NPA_warning. Tyrenius 18:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd say that the block is indefinite until or unless Vk can demonstrate the capacity for good behaviour. I too have had bad experiences with this editor and he has already had several last chances. Although he has made some useful contributions, at this stage his balance is way over to the negative side. I would repeat; it is for Vk to be flexible and convince us he would not abuse the privilege of being allowed to edit here. Failing that, the block can stand. --John 15:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

As I have said above, I cannot "convince us he would not abuse the privilege" if I am unable prohibited from doing so. I feel a little like an eager footballer on the bench urging his manager to put him on so that he can prove what he is capable of.--Vintagekits 15:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I haven't really had any run-ins with VK as far as I recall, and I don't frequently edit the kinds of article that seem to provoke his ire. I have come across his edits in the past however, but hopefully I can speak as some kind of neutral. There is room for all sorts of opinions on-Wiki, of all political persuasions. But *everybody* MUST undertake to edit impartially and without any agenda. I'm afraid it's blatantly obvious that VK (et al.) see Wikipedia as a POV battleground on which to further their own POV. This has also in the past boiled over into extreme incivility, racism, and downright nastiness, which is just completely unacceptable. Everybody deserves a second chance (and on Wikipedia, sometimes a third, a fourth, a fifth...etc.) and obviously VK sometimes acts in good faith and can make good contributions. But I strongly agree with John above- the onus here is on him to alter his behaviour, not on the other few hundred thousand or so of us to change our rules. It's also obvious that there is a lot of good faith being shown here and few want an indefinite ban to remain in effect. To reiterate, I would favour taking this to the arbcom and letting them sort it out. I suspect the outcome would be similar (some kind of parole with limitations on editing) but it would have the benefit of unassailable legitimacy, and the arbcom may also decide to look into some of the wider issues involved which could led to a wider solution. Badgerpatrol 16:00, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying badger, however, to pick me out like this is a little unjust and unfair - many of the editors who many come on here and wanted the indef block to continue have been blocked for personal attacks on me (one who has been blocked again just today), so its doesnt surprise me that they have that opinion. As for arbcom, I am not sire hat would solve anything and would just take up more time and energy of all editors also I dont think that the outcome of an arbcom would suggest any restriction more stringent than the proposed in have suggested myself. As for proving that I can be trusted - actions speak louder than words and I will prove it be showing my editing skills and resolving issue in an amicable way without recourse to edit warring.--Vintagekits 16:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's more or less what I meant by "wider issues"- from my (admittedly superficial) knowledge of your history on Wikipedia, it seems there are at least two sets of editors, each with a political agenda, who seem to delight in off-topic provocation of each other, POV pushing, and brinkmanship. Personally, I would like the arbcom to look into the behaviour of *all* the editors involved, not just you. Banning you indefinitely (whether you deserve it or not) is like sticking a plaster on a gaping wound- it's not an end to the problem. To be honest, in the absence of any groundswell towards taking this to the arbcom, I'm personally in favour of another chance for you, although I'm not an admin and 9 blocks in 6 months is a pretty poor rapsheet. Equally, I can't help but think that as soon as you go near any political article (Irish, British, terrorism, whatever) then problems are going to inevitably arise, and even if you're paroled from editing these I suspect you'll find a way to push your agenda somewhere else...sorry if that's harsh, but it is based on my reading of your edit history. Anyway, as you say, you can't demonstrate that you are prepared to change if you don't get given the chance. Badgerpatrol 16:22, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't disagree with you to be honest, and yes, there needs to be some sort of mediation to govern all editors and an strict nonosense approach taken by admin to edit warring and POV pushing. I would be willing to sign up to that. I would also point out that the disruption and edit warring hasnt gone away just because I have been blocked, infact in the week or so that I have been blocked its arguably been much worse.--Vintagekits 16:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

That's conciliatory, Vinnie.

Now can I clarify that you are unequivocally "willing to sign up to", as your very first edit if and when your block is lifted, "some sort of mediation to govern all editors and an strict nonosense approach taken by admin to edit warring and POV pushing."?

You are giving your promise to make a leap of faith in SirFozzie now and sign up to SirFozzie's initiative - or do you still have havers and quibbles and a bit of Wikilawyering to do yet?...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 13:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Edit summaries

If you look at the top of the page, you will see that I was the first editor to support your request to be allowed back to WP.[10]

I personally know how aggravating and annoying it is to have users you loathe and detest post what may be regarded as provocations in your user space. You may think that, as per WP:CIVIL, you have an unconditional right to take the attitude that inappropriate text will typically be read but then deleted without comment (except for the edit summary, perhaps) but I am a litle disturbed by some of your recent edit summaries here on this page [11] [12]

Do you have a specific list of existing editors you are unwilling to interact with?

If so, I think it would be better if those editors are also banned from interacting with you should you return....Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 13:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

There are many editors who have commented here that I wouldnt care to have a drink with, many have had their say here and voiced their opinion without me removing their comments. However, I drawn the line at having Astrotrain interject on this talkpage. I am happy to work with him with regards articles but I not going to allow to go attempt gloat or lord over me on my talk page.--Vintagekits 17:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

That's positive, Vinnie. A very short list of one, then.

Would you be so kind as to comment on whether you are prepared to sign up (as requested by SirFozzie) in the first section of this edit: [13]

As I have already outlined I would be in favour of some sort of mediation - as long as its treats all equally, which is fair enough I think.--Vintagekits 18:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't wish to badger you, Vinnie, but that is really not very specific. Could you perhaps take some time and address yourself to the specific and precise question in the section above and give us all a Yes or No. If you need clarification, I believe you still have SirFozzie's e-mail address...

Now I think I've said enough on this page for the week...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 18:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Amended concrete proposals

After examining all comments above (up to, and including 17:47hrs UTC, 6 August 2007), I would still support User:Vintagekits request to have his indefinite ban lifted at 18:47hrs UTC, 3 September 2007

• But only if

(1) the list of articles that Vinnie is banned from editing until 18:47hrs UTC, 3 March 2008 (the embargo list) is precisely defined and published in this and User:SirFozzie's and User:Rockpocket's talk space first and then
(2) that draft list is publicised in appropriate article discussion areas (ie most of the embargoed articles) and
(3) a period of 7 days is then allowed for the community to add to the "six month embargoed" list
(4) as a preventative measure, an escalating series of edit blocks beginning at 1 hour and only rising in small 1 hour increments to try and correct breaches of policy (obviously including edit warring and personal attacks) is implemented so other users can see that admins are vigilant and active and are then not tempted to edit war or revert themselves
(5) the talk pages of embargoed articles are specifically not embargoed (since Vinnie says he wishes to prove his reformed behaviour) - but only if
(6) three specific admin parole officers in different time zones are assigned to monitor all incivility and disruptive behaviour on articles that Vinnie edits (by any editor)
(7) a ban on "Admin shopping" by VK is implemented
(8) Vinnie publish his list of editors that he refuses to interact with here before his return
(9) consideration is given to banning editors on Vinnie's aforesaid list from editing specific articles that Vinnie edits after his return so as not to run the risk of antagonising Vinnie...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 13:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I appriciate your time and effort G but I dont think that you are in a position to lay down what criteria or hoops must be jumped through. I have outlined the terms that I should be back on and I think they are more than fair.--Vintagekits 17:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

With regards to 3, who decides if articles added by the "community" to the embargoed list are to be part of the finalised embargoed list? Also why is there such a long wait (ie a month) until VK's indef ban is lifted? Surely as a sign of good faith we could lift his ban as soon as he agrees to any proposal?Derry Boi 14:15, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

It is worth taking some time to make sure this will work. The community has no need to prove its good faith, only Vk needs to do that. --John 14:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that only VK can make this work, but he can't prove anything onless he is able to edit on some articles. So dragging this out, or making him wait ontil x time has passed is not very helpful.--padraig 14:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

{Clarification for Derry Boi and Padraig}: I have not proposed "dragging this out".

Vinnies original proposal was "I'm gonna stay off for a month and then request that I am aloud back but not to edit on republican articles for a further six months.". It shows the good will and faith of the community that we are already discussing a "request" now, that is technically not due to be made for more than another three weeks. Now the post I just quoted from Vinnie was made by User:Vintagekits at 18:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC) - hence my proposal at (1) above that "the list of articles that Vinnie is banned from editing until 18:47hrs UTC, 3 March 2008 (the embargo list) is precisely defined".

In regards to concrete proposal (2) above, "a period of 7 days is then allowed for the community to add to the "six month embargoed" list", there is nothing to stop either SirFozzie or Rockpocket starting this list in a specific area of their talk space right now so the list can be firmed up in the next 3 weeks and then the initial finalised list can be published here. My suggestion is that the draft list is not worked on here so that Vinnie does not have an opportunity to debate the entries since I really don't think it is for him to decide where he has been incivil and disruptive and biassed at this stage - once he is unblocked he will have ample opportunity to fight his corner again....Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 15:05, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

How about the following to take the best of both worlds:

A) Banned from editing articles relating to Irish Republicanism, broadly based. (IE, VK will have to show that it isn't tangentially related to the subject, not that others will have to prove that it is). This will last six months at a minimum. We can review it then.

B) If any admin determines that VK is disrupting any talk page in the slightest, he can add a talk-page ban on that article unilaterally. (VK, this means you're going to have to be on your best behavior no matter what, and there's a chance that an admin might decide to add a ban you consider to be unfair. You're going to have to go along with it, however).

C) Vintagekits will endeavor to remain civil at all times. If he has problems with any other editor, be they an administrator or an editor, he will bring it up privately with myself, or if I'm not around, User:Alison. This will prevent what has been termed as admin shopping.

D)VK places himself under 1RR, and will be blocked if he violates this.

E)It is strongly recommended that VK and the editors who oppose him minimize their contact if at all possible.

SirFozzie 14:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that sounds fair, can I add something to point E, that any editor that opposed VK or was involved in a dispute with him, in the case that they try to deliberately harass him on the articles or talks page he can edit, that the admin take action against that editor.--padraig 14:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Not too bad, but I'm just wondering will D) be set in stone? Ok the 1RR is fair enough, but at the end of the day I'm sure VK will over the course of six months make a genuine mistake and revert something twice. I just hope that if this does happen, he isn't instantly blocked without question. I'm sure VK will try his best to uphold the 1RR proposal, but at the same time I'm sure a genuine mistake will be made over a long period of time like six months. Derry Boi 15:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not going to be an indefblock for violating it, but maybe a short term block (3-24 hours is what I would recommend) SirFozzie 15:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Getting close. I suggest amending (a) to a ban on all political articles, to avoid a repetition of the user's unhelpful contributions to Talk:Falklands War in late May, for example. Although this kind of article has nothing directly in common with Irish Republicanism, more edits like this would be unacceptable. My other question is about the enforcement; it is a lot to ask of Alison to do it. I would need to see her assent to the job, which will be a long-term one, before I accepted the unblocking. I would like it explicitly stated too that this offer constitutes the absolute last chance for Vk; I would hate to see us all here again in a month or two. --John 15:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I need to see Vinnie's response to [14]

before I can properly comment on SirFozzie or Padraig's comments on my concrete amended proposals.

For now I will confine myself to saying that there is a danger in making things too complicated for folks to understand and an equal danger in having too many "nooseholes".

Before I see Vinnie's response I agree (C) is compatible with (6) since I assume SirFozzie and Alison are in different time zones, however I do have misgivings with them being 2 of the assigned 3 parole officers since they have both said they are under extreme time pressure and SirFozzie has also been very recently ill and his parole supervision ended in flames last time. If it does not seem too rude I see him contiuing more of a mentoring rather than a parole officer role. I fear that the three "parole officers" will need to be eternally vigilant in weeks 2 and 3 after Vinnie's eventual return. [E] is completely compatible with (9). [D] is implicit in (4). [B] is what I already intended in (1) - except that it is more precise in that only admins can add to the definitive "six month embargo list" - any editors wishing an article added to the list can simply contact an admin of their choice.

That leaves [A].

I wish to make it quite clear, SirFozzie, as other editors have already done above (even though many complaints and concerns have been deleted by various parties at various times and for various reasons and currently can not be viewed on this user's talk page) that the community's concerns are not limited to "Irish Republicanism, broadly based". I would take a great deal of persuading that a loose definition like [A] should ever replace (1), (2) and (3) above. God bless!...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 15:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• I agree to Fozzies point A - E, however, I would clarify that A is limited to WP:IR articles, should you look at the list of articles that are in the WP:IR then this will show they are most of the articles I edit anyway. Also to ban me from articles which are "Irish" or "British" or "political" is both unworkable and counterproductive. If I can show I can handle editing editing non WP:IR articles then that will go some way to showing I can edit all articles.

P.S. I just hope that other editors will also now have to buck their ideas up.--Vintagekits 17:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I think there is a strong argument to bring this case to arbcom as it strikes me that there are 2 sides to this dispute and it isnt right to just single out VK, SqueakBox 18:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

break

I like SirFozzie's proposal, though would agree that its should be made clear that the ban includes other controversial political issues also, like Gibralter and the Falklands for example. I don't see the need to create a list, because in doing so we will inevitably forget something. Besides, Vk is not a child and he is not stupid. He, I'm sure, understands that this is not something he can wikilawyer around, that it is the spirit of the ban that is important not the specifics. Moreover, the ban is to help him. It is in his interests to avoid anything that could lead to conflict until he is confident, and we are confident, that he can deal with conflict in a manner that is acceptable to the community. If he edits a controversial article that is obliquely tangential to Irish republicanism, but does so in a responsible, civil and uncontroversial manner then its no big deal. He has contributed in a positive way. If he edits the same article in an incivil, irresponsible or controversial manner, then he will have shot himself in the foot. It will be Vk's decision on whether to edit articles around the margins of the ban, and if he is smart he will err on the side of caution.

Similarly, it is the spirit of 1RR that is important. If Vk was to accidently violate 1RR, one would fully expect an admin to remind him of it first, rather than just block him. The onus would then be on Vk to act appropriately in response (acknowledgement and relf reverting).

I think there is a danger of over complicating this. Wikipedia cannot exist with editors having a complex sub-set of things editors can and cannot do. All Vk really has to do is avoid making controversial edits until he can convince the project he can play nicely with others. It isn't rocket science, and thousands of other editors do it every day without too much effort. Either he can manage that (Great - welcome back, Vk) or he can't (Goodbye, Vk - Wikipedia isn't for you). In addition to Fozzie and Alison am happy to assist Vk in this if he would like, though he may prefer not to use me, and that is fine. But he doesn't need to be watched 24/7. He can't do anything that can't be retrosepctively assessed and reverted relatively trivially, and if he does melt down, what does it matter if it takes a day or so for an admin to intervene? I can't see him getting another chance after this one, so 24hrs is going to make little difference to an indef block.

I say as long as Vk understands and accepts Fozzie's conditions, and realises that it is the spirit, not the specifics, that are important - then he may as well be unblocked tomorrow. Rockpocket 17:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

BTW nobody should ever be punished for reverting obvious vandalism, even arbcom restrictions dont go that far, flexibility has to be the name of the game, if VK finds someone making ridiculous, obviously vandalsitic edits (so and so is a prat etc) this needs to be reverted by the first person on the scene, SqueakBox 18:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course, anyone that wanted action taken against Vk for vandalism reverts because they broke the terms of his parole would be equally guilty of wikilawyering. The onus is on Vk to prove that he can edit in an acceptable fashion, fencing him in with too many restrictions is not the way to judge that. There is two ways of looking at it: we give Vk enough leeway to prove to us that has has the judgement to edit constructively, or else we give Vk enough rope to hang himself. Either outcome solves the problem. Rockpocket 18:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Irrefutable logic.

I just don't want any condemnation of the hangman or rope afterwards if it, sadly, goes that way...Gaimhreadhan ^{(kiwiexile at DMOZ)} talk • 18:21, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I refer to reverts like this as being entirely uncontroversial, SqueakBox 18:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

(deindent) Rockpocket, if it's all right with you then it's all right with me. I'm going away for a few days, so I hope this works out. --John 18:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• With regards the articles which I wont edit - obviously I wont edit WR:IR articles as state, and if I edit any other articles but then Fozzie or Alison says dont edit that article then I wont edit that either. Now can the block be lifted please Fozz.--Vintagekits 20:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I haven't taken part in this discussion, but I think there is a clear consensus now. It's time to get on with it and lift the block. Scolaire 08:38, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, best of look Vintagekits, hope it works out well for you. --Domer48 12:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I've come into this discussion late for a number of reasons, and can add nothing that has not already been said (and probably better) by someone else. Let me say simply that I am glad to see your block lifted, VK, and I wish you the best. Occasionally, justice prevails. ---Theoldanarchist_Comhrá 17:06, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not back yet - but thank you for your messeges of support. Fozzy has to remove the block yet, however, he is ill at the moment and doesnt edit much at the moment.--Vintagekits 17:33, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I support the unconditional release of VK --(Sarah777 18:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC))

• Still no sign of Fozzie, I hope he is he ok, has anyone heard from him?--Vintagekits 19:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I haven't. However, if you can acknowledge that you understand and agree to:

• Sir Fozzie's ban conditions above,
• That - with regards to articles tangential the subject-specific ban (like contentious British issues such as the Falkland and Gibralter) - you will consult with an admin before editing,
• That you are free to edit the talkpages and AfDs of any article, but that you will be held to the utmost level of civility on these pages, and an admin may ban you from these if they consider you to be disruptive,

then I will unblock you in his absence. A simple yea or nay is fine. Rockpocket 21:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Thats what I have been saying all along, so aye.--Vintagekits 21:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, done. Happy editing, Vintagekits. Rockpocket 21:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Jamie Moore

Hi there, long time no speak!. I have made a slight alteration to the Jamie Moore boxer page and added a couple of references. Hope they sit well with you. Regards GRB1972

By adding one reference you have taken out another. I'd fix it if I could.--Vintagekits 14:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Response to deleted messages

Anon has made his/her point, and the way forward suggested to him/her should they wish to do so. This should be the end of the matter on your talk page. As for a global ArbCom case, that would be a mammoth task. Moreover, the amount of mud raking it would generate would, I think, prove counter-productive. If someone wants to do it, then they should go ahead. But I personally, think a concerted effort of a few admins to enforce our policies across the board would be a lot more effective. Rockpocket 20:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, I only think arbcom would be appropriate were no admin to unblock VK say within a month of the block imposition because I certainly dont think he should be just blocked indefinitely. As one of his political opponents I have no reason to want to see this case go to arbcom but recognise it takes 2 to make an argument and that VK should not be singled out for an indefinite ban. Hope this is clear, SqueakBox 20:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I know how tyhe sock is - I have there IP edits saved from whn they wernt signed in as their other accounts. --Vintagekits 20:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Could you email me this info? Rockpocket 21:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Obviously I cant do a checkuser, but its strong circumstantial.--Vintagekits 21:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Response to deleted messages 2

Anon has made his/her point, and the way forward suggested to him/her should they wish to do so. This should be the end of the matter on your talk page. As for a global ArbCom case, that would be a mammoth task. Moreover, the amount of mud raking it would generate would, I think, prove counter-productive. If someone wants to do it, then they should go ahead. But I personally, think a concerted effort of a few admins to enforce our policies across the board would be a lot more effective. Rockpocket 20:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, I only think arbcom would be appropriate were no admin to unblock VK say within a month of the block imposition because I certainly dont think he should be just blocked indefinitely. As one of his political opponents I have no reason to want to see this case go to arbcom but recognise it takes 2 to make an argument and that VK should not be singled out for an indefinite ban. Hope this is clear, SqueakBox 20:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I know how tyhe sock is - I have there IP edits saved from whn they wernt signed in as their other accounts. --Vintagekits 20:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Anon has made his/her point, and the way forward suggested to him/her should they wish to do so. This should be the end of the matter on your talk page. As for a global ArbCom case, that would be a mammoth task. Moreover, the amount of mud raking it would generate would, I think, prove counter-productive. If someone wants to do it, then they should go ahead. But I personally, think a concerted effort of a few admins to enforce our policies across the board would be a lot more effective. Rockpocket 20:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, I only think arbcom would be appropriate were no admin to unblock VK say within a month of the block imposition because I certainly dont think he should be just blocked indefinitely. As one of his political opponents I have no reason to want to see this case go to arbcom but recognise it takes 2 to make an argument and that VK should not be singled out for an indefinite ban. Hope this is clear, SqueakBox 20:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Is there a procedure for IP accounts to take a case to arbcom?

I am not arguing for a permanent ban or block on Vkits. I am arguing that our processes should not be abused and gamed.84.13.156.208

On 01:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC) you, Rockpocket wrote on this very page: "I have extended you block for an indefinate period due to threats of physical violence, gross personal and sectarian attacks and indicating you will engage in further meatpuppetry. I will ask for a review of this myself, therefore you do not need to. I will leave this page for you to plead your case, should you have a change of opinion, but be aware that if you continue to use this page as a platform for soapboxing or personal attacks, I will protect it." Now I am being attacked as a "sockpuppet" and my own comments (and that of other editors are removed by Vkits, the source of the need for this page to be protected. Surely it is a obstructive of communication with him and others if he just keeps blanking whole sections?

Is there a Wikipedia policy that means that the contributions of IP editors are disregarded and discarded? Surely it is what I write that is important?84.13.156.208

Only ones that edit off Opal communication servers and change IRA to PIRA - ring any bells. If you cant honestly identify yourself, then I am not going to have a conversation with you.--Vintagekits 21:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

What are "off Opal communication servers", please?84.13.156.208

• Proinsias, I am requesting that you kindly do not edit my talkpage again, if you do I will consider it harassment.--Vintagekits 21:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

My name is not Proinsias, your fishing will not work - I've skittered IP's.84.13.156.208 23:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, this isn't going anywhere. Anon, the solution to your point about ArbCom has been offered. Vk clearly doesn't wish to discuss the matter with you, lets leave him to get on with his editing, shall we? Rockpocket 21:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Why no arbcom?

I understand why User:SirFozzie, Vintagekits former Parole Officer, has been reluctant to refer Vkits to an arbitration committee because it now seems that User:Sarah777 is to be blocked for one year. However, as an administrator his loyalty should be to the community at large - not his former client. To show neutrality he should refer the issue of if and how Vkits should be unblocked to the same arbitration committee that rules here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Great_Irish_Famine/Proposed_decision 84.13.156.208

No COI here and IMO VK should only go to arbcom if he doesnt get unblocked, which should happe in the next few days. If thast does happen there is nothing here for the arbcom, SqueakBox 20:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

What does "COI" mean, please? 84.13.156.208

Conflict of interests - Alison ☺ 20:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

SqueakBox, three or four times you have mentioned that you believe Vk's position should be determined by Arbcom before blocking. Now some anon is suggesting that Arbcom should determine whether Vk should be unblocked. If someone wishes to take this to Arbcom, I suggest they do so, rather than suggest others should. One doesn't have to be an admin to propose a case to the committee. Rockpocket 20:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

My point was that arbcom should determine if he were to remain blocked if he was still blocked after a month or so. If he is unblocked, which he is, there is no need for arbcom. So my position was/is very different from that of the anon and there is no need to involve arbcom right now, SqueakBox 21:32, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Sir. With respect, there should be a conflict of interest in this case. Advocating local and temporary solutions to widespread and persistent problems is not appropriate. Arbcom should be looking at the whole issue of Single Purpose Accounts and gang harassment.84.13.156.208

Not sure SQB is advokating arbcom - I would be happy to go to arbcom but dont see the point, it would not only be counterproductive but a waste of editors/admin time. p.s. I am not happy about anon socks using my talkpage in this manner--Vintagekits 20:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Please assume good faith and do not make allegations without evidence. It is precisely that sort of behaviour that made many users doubt your assurances of reform. After the "attempted suicide" last nght do you wonder why users are now scared of harassment?

If you don't see the point of arbitration, Vkits then I really wonder why you bother to participate here - you certainly have not shown any signs of either remorse or reform in respect of your past behaviour84.13.156.208

I certainly think Vintagekits should be left alone to make useful contributions - but it's not a good sign that his first contribution to a co-operative project is to censor other editors and allege sockpuppetry84.13.156.208

1. Please respect my talk page and 2. dont edit here anymore. Thank you.--Vintagekits 21:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

You have been ask not to post on this editors user space, now respect that wish, and remember this editor has the right to remove any content he wishes from this page, you on the other hand have no right to revert that when he does so.--padraig 21:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back.

File:GuinnessPint.JPG

Welcome back

SqueakBox 21:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Good to have you back. Derry Boi 22:59, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Cheers a chara.--Vintagekits 23:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

So, where did YOU go for your holidays?! (Sarah777 23:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC))

Nowhere sunny, I cant tell ya that.--Vintagekits 23:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

• 

  Welcome back, dude :) If there's anything you need a hand with, just give us a shout! - Alison ☺ 23:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Cheers, hopefully I wont need any help but I am sure there will be some editors who will try and push me (like a certain editor tonight) but I should be cool!--Vintagekits 23:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

That was the week that was, nice to see again! . GH 10:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Glad to see you back, VK. Sorry I haven't been around much.. but hopefully now that you're back to stay.. if you just need somebody to bounce things off of, you have my email.I'm not editing WP full time due to my medical issues at the moment.. but my email is always open. SirFozzie 15:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks mate, come back when yer fellin better. I'll say a prayer for y and get me mother to do a decade of the rosary - now thats chicken soup if there ever was.--Vintagekits 18:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Unblock conditions

Copied here from earlier on the page for clarity.

A) Banned from editing articles relating to Irish Republicanism, broadly based. (IE, VK will have to show that it isn't tangentially related to the subject, not that others will have to prove that it is). This will last six months at a minimum. We can review it then.

B) If any admin determines that VK is disrupting any talk page in the slightest, he can add a talk-page ban on that article unilaterally. (VK, this means you're going to have to be on your best behavior no matter what, and there's a chance that an admin might decide to add a ban you consider to be unfair. You're going to have to go along with it, however).

C) Vintagekits will endeavor to remain civil at all times. If he has problems with any other editor, be they an administrator or an editor, he will bring it up privately with myself, or if I'm not around, User:Alison. This will prevent what has been termed as admin shopping.

D)VK places himself under 1RR, and will be blocked if he violates this.

E)It is strongly recommended that VK and the editors who oppose him minimize their contact if at all possible.

SirFozzie 14:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Sir Fozzie's ban conditions above,
• That - with regards to articles tangential the subject-specific ban (like contentious British issues such as the Falkland and Gibralter) - you will consult with an admin before editing,
• That you are free to edit the talkpages and AfDs of any article, but that you will be held to the utmost level of civility on these pages, and an admin may ban you from these if they consider you to be disruptive,

then I will unblock you in his absence. A simple yea or nay is fine. Rockpocket 21:00, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Thats what I have been saying all along, so aye.--Vintagekits 21:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

User_talk:John#Astrotrain

As a preventative measure in light with the unblocking and for your protection, I am asking you not to edit those articles or their talk pages or discuss them any further, until one of the admins involved with the mentoring has a chance to attend to this. Tyrenius 01:06, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ty, I hope I have proved that I am able to discuss rationally and not rise to provokation on those pages and to try and find a settlement through discussion and rational policy based arguement. But like you ask, I will cease editing the said articles and talkpages until one of the admin has had a look at it. regards--Vintagekits 08:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Vintagekits; thank you for the message and welcome back. I am just back from holidays but will try to have a look at the situation later today or tomorrow. Best wishes to you, --John 18:49, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your further message. I did have a look but I couldn't see a policy violation there. I suggest continuing to discuss in talk, frustrating as I know that is. --John 19:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

My comments re your unblocking

You should put it down to my British sense of fair play. Would that some of my fellow compatriots would follow suit, SqueakBox 01:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Lol! Aye, we'll put it down to the British sense of fair play alright! Just kiddin, cheers anyway.--Vintagekits 08:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes that tragedy along with the Guildford Four has done no good whatsoever to our British reputation (any more than the minority of football hooligans who made it uncomfortable for any Brits like me to be seen in many cities of Western Europe in my youth). I suspect the Brum6 miscarriage also explains some of your own hostility towards certain aspects of British culture, all of which is very sad, and in this case especially for both the 6 and for the victims' families, who didnt and dont have any justice. Regards, SqueakBox 20:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

M. Comerford

Thanks / please improve and rate it. I was amazed that she hadn't been wiki'ed, given many pages on a lot of rather irrelevant and tawdry people. BTW she asked me to join the Fianna (a sort of Komsomol or Hitler-Jugend) when I was a young lad in the 1960s and gave me her book. Clever and charming but rather missed the big picture.Red Hurley 18:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll have a look at it. I'm very familiar with Na Fianna, ;) --Vintagekits 18:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the 'unsourced' comment. I was hoping that some serious expert (like yourself) would help with that. NB it is no more 'unsourced' than the pages on Markiewicz and MacSwiney.Red Hurley 10:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Lol, the unsourced tag wasnt an attack it actually helps the article. I will sort the article out further when I have a moment - give me a shout if you need any further help a chara.--Vintagekits 18:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Images

It might be more appropriate to use {{Non-free fair use in | Article}}, bearing in mind the historical images section in Wikipedia:Fair_use_rationale_guideline#Non-template. It is relevant if a person is dead, so that a current photo taken of them, and there is no known free image available. You should provide a rationale under a heading ==Fair use rationale==. Also separately put a link to the source and copyright info. The site states all material on it is copyright. Tyrenius 03:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyright violation in Image:Seamus Grew.jpg

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Image:Seamus Grew.jpg, by Conypiece (talk · contribs), another Wikipedia user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Image:Seamus Grew.jpg is unquestionably copyright infringement, and no assertion of permission has been made.

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To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Image:William fleming poster.jpg, please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. --Android Mouse Bot 2 17:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Bless you, my child

Bless you, my child, for the service you have rendered unto the Irish Republican Cause and Holy Mother Church by removing Cometstyles' revert of 27 April 2007. For further information, please see the "Gerry Adams" discussion page. Writtenright 23:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)Writtenright

Ha ha. Good work, Vk. That Benedict has had it in for Gerry from day one, But you foiled him! Lets just hope he doesn't have the Big Guy's ear, or else you could be in trouble at the pearly gates. Rockpocket 23:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I was looking at the wrong revert, it appear you replaced the Vatican edit (which was to delete the Adams allegation). Still, at least you have the Big man on your side ;) Rockpocket 06:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Wowz! - Alison ☺ 00:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for inviting me ☺

Hi thanks for inviting me to join! I will be looking forward to taking an active part in the site once i finish college in september. I probably will have more questions for you but its great to finally see a proper Irish Republican area to Wikipedia at last. take care mo chara --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  17:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Baronet renamings

Vintagekits, please stop this splurge if moving articles on baronets from the format Sir X Y, Nth baronet to plain "NY". Many of those who you have moved are ambiguous names, being shared by other notable baronets, not all of whom yet have articles. Moving the articles to the undisambiguated name has in several cases led to links pointing to the wrong articles. I know hat you dislike baronets, but please don't let that lead you to disrupt wikipedia by removing titles which are needed for disambiguation. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I did not " disrupt wikipedia by removing titles which are needed for disambiguation" - I moved article titles that were over disambiguated and against wiki guidelines - you as an admin should know that and shouldnt have moved them back or created a load of bogus disamb pages with nothing but redlinks to avoid wiki guidelines.--Vintagekits 21:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

If they havent got articles yet then in wiki terms they are not notable. If they are 1st Baronets then I will listen to reason but secondary and further Baronets are not inherantly notable. I am sure there are thousands of articles yet to be created - should all pages be disambiguated in anticipation of those articles being created?--Vintagekits 17:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, don't let you're PoV get in the way, as it did in the past (before you were indefinitely blocked) try not to let it happen again. --Counter-revolutionary 16:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

If you are just going to troll me talkpage please dont not post here again. I was never blocked for POV pushing - if you want to go down that childish route please remind me what you were blocked for!? Please step down from your soapbox CR, dont not accuse me of POV pushing when I am following wiki guidelines.--Vintagekits 17:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not just that much-needed disambiguation is being removed, but there have been no efforts made to fix any resulting double-redirects, even though the move page clearly places that as the responsibility of the editor performing the move. These moves were done at a rate of up to five per minute, which makes it impossible for there to have been meaningful checks carried out. Please count this as a formal warning: a repetition of this may lead to you being blocked. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You are completely wrong to issue a warning - if some redirects name to be sorted then fine - but I checked all article moves before I moved them - I have been squeaky clean since my return to wiki and deeply resent your slur - I am following wiki guidelines with relation to the moves and you are out of order with the line you are taking here.--Vintagekits 17:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I think to be fair that Vk is right on the naming issue. It may be that he needs help clearing up the loose ends created by his moves. --John 17:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No he is not right at all. By notable I'm a very sure that User:BrownHairedGirl meant that many of the baronets were MPs etc, whose pages have not yet been created but have automatic notablity as MPs. By moving all on mass, which is very disruptive, during a discussion and not fixing the links, he should really be blocked again. There is no excuse for this disruption, or this blantant POV attitude.--UpDown 18:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That to be honest is pure nonsense - if you want to create articles for people who dont have articles then please crack on and I would be more than happy to reassess the situation. Also to go through the rest of your points - 1. "I'm a very sure that User:BrownHairedGirl meant that many of the baronets were MPs etc" - you know what BHG is thinking now before she even says it do you?? 2. "By moving all on mass, which is very disruptive, during a discussion and not fixing the links" - you have a point about not fixing the links - however, I have amended a number of those now. Also there was a discussion on a number of pages and it was unopposed - also I dont see that there is a real problem not having a discussion when wiki guidelines are being followed. 3. "he should really be blocked again" - blocked because I follow wiki guidelines - maybe you shoujld ask for those to be blocked because they didnt name the articles correctly in the first place! 4. "There is no excuse for this disruption, or this blantant POV attitude" - please explain what POV attitude. The is possibly the least logical post that has ever been posted on my talk page.--Vintagekits 18:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Right so we should move pages, them move them back when the pages are created! Well that is certainly logical and saves time!! And I may not be a mind-reader, but I use common sense. And fixing the links "now" is not good enough, you fix them as you go along, a very basic and simple policy to follow. The discussion was not finished, so you should not have moved the articles. And you know you have a POV, everyone is this discussion knows your POV, so please don't pretend you don't have one. We all know you do.--UpDown 18:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Be reasonable, VK. You know very well that there is currently a discussion about naming formats for Baronets on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles) where you have taken part. Would it not be right to leave baronets alone until that is resolved? Regards, David Lauder 17:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I am very reasonable on this issue - however, accusations from some editors would editors want to ensure ALL articles are named correctly! The discussion is to change the guidline, so far there is no concensus to change it, however, after I a little annoyed at BHG's accusation and unless she apologies for her accusations I will ensure that all Baronets are titled correctly - if she apologies then I will put a hold on any changes until the issues if fully sorted out. regards--Vintagekits 17:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Vintagekits, I was not aware of any change being discussed, but as you well know, the existing guidance at Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(names_and_titles)#Other_non-royal_names is to use the "the format Sir X Y, Nth baronet" when disambiguation is necessary. In plenty of the cases where you have renamed articles, when disambiguation clearly is necessary, even if the other articles do not yet exist.

It is also clearly not true that you checked before making your article moves. Very few checks are possible when moving articles at the rate of five per minute, and the result was many cases where incorrect links were created as a result of the move, where double redirects were not corrected, and were articles were moved to undisambiguated namespaces which would be more appropriately used for a disambiguation page. Your comment on my talk page that disambiguation pages should only be created at "foo (disambiguation)" is clearly wrong: read WP:DAB#Page_naming_conventions.

Finally, however, I take your latest comment as a clear threat to engage in disruptive editing, to make a WP:POINT. Your editing actions should not be conditional on whether or not you think that anyone else is being nice to you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Please read point four of the guideline that you have quoted and then come back and apologies for YOUR disruption and YOUR breach of WP:POINT not mine - if you followed policy instead of making false accusation then there would have been no need for any of this.--Vintagekits 18:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

As for "It is also clearly not true that you checked before making your article moves" - nice breach of WP:AGF there - I did check all the page and after I made the checks I changed the articles titles to the correct format. As for no previous unopposed discussions see - Talk:George_Acheson, Talk:Nicholas Acheson and others.--Vintagekits 18:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

In response to your comment on my TalkPage, as BrownHairedGirl says above read WP:DAB#Page_naming_conventions. It is very clear. --UpDown 18:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I just thought I ought to add that UpDown was entirely correct in assessing my comments above about there being other notable articles. Vintagekits has a point in saying that if there are other notable people of those names, the articles should be created ... except that some editors are indeed working hard to create such articles, and their work is impeded by disruptions such as Vintagekits's insistence on ambiguous article names.

And, as to WP:AGF, I stand by my points above. Articles were being moved at a rate if up to five minute. In the course of that process, no other links were corrected, even though the article moves created double redirects and misdirected links. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

If articles are created there should be a disamb page - you disgracefully and pointed created a load of redlink diamb pages to create this situation and blatantly just bloody made up some nonsense about me "threatening" to breach WP:POINT dispite the fact I didnt and despite the fact you breached WP:POINT by creating a load of red link disamb page. Your actions today have disgusted me to be honest.--Vintagekits 21:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocked for 3 weeks

You have been blocked temporarily from editing for abuse of editing privileges. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.

This block has been issued for your clear threat above to disrupt wikipedia by renaming articles based on your misinterpretation of the current guidelines. A block such as this would usually follow several warnings and be for a short period, but in view of your long history of disruptive editing and of targetted campaigns against particular classes of article, I have blocked you for three weeks.
In view of your history, other admins may choose to extend the block. I note in particular that before your indefinite block was lifted, you asked that "a strict nonosense approach taken by admin to edit warring and POV pushing". Threatening to mass-rename articles if someone doesn't apologise to you is absolutely unacceptable under the no-nonsense approach you asked for, particularly when you are already part to a discussion about a proposed change in the guidelines which would forbid such moves in all circumstances, Since some editors may consider it inappropriate for me to make the block having been the admin who set about undoing some of the damage caused above, I will post to WP:ANI to ask other admins to review this case. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That is a digrace, I made those changes in line with wiki policy. The issue was discussed on a number of article pages and was unopposed. I made no threats whatsoever - You shoiuld not have made a block like this as you were the one who was disputing it and especially as another admin (who usually disagrees with me) User:John agreed that my edits were correct.--Vintagekits 19:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The blocking admin is involved in a dispute with me, and my actions were supported above by administrator User:John above. After I started moving Baronets to the correct place per Wiki guidelines, BHG started creating redlinked disambiguation pages have been created to circumvent Wikipedia guidelines on the naming of articles about baronets. Look at this edit where BHG creates a disambigution page with redlinks and only one bluelinked article. This was created just to keep Sir Ralph Gore, 4th Baronet at the current name instead of at Ralph Gore. Look at WP:NCNT, Baronets should only be at their full titles for disambiguation, so unless articles exist no disambiguation is needed. Creating disambiguation pages when articles don't exist is in itself disruptive, surely you only need to disambiguate if articles exist? Then I beleive that she wanted to just block me for an reason and choose WP:POINT which is totally unsubstantiated.--Vintagekits 19:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

{{[[Template:The blocking admin is involved in a dispute with me, and my actions were supported above by administrator User:John above. After I started moving Baronets to the correct place per Wiki guidelines, BHG started creating redlinked disambiguation pages have been created to circumvent Wikipedia guidelines on the naming of articles about baronets. Look at this edit where BHG creates a disambigution page with redlinks and only one bluelinked article. This was created just to keep Sir Ralph Gore, 4th Baronet at the current name instead of at Ralph Gore. Look at WP:NCNT, Baronets should only be at their full titles for disambiguation, so unless articles exist no disambiguation is needed. Creating disambiguation pages when articles don't exist is in itself disruptive, surely you only need to disambiguate if articles exist? Then I beleive that she wanted to just block me for an reason and choose WP:POINT which is totally unsubstantiated. I have calmly discussed the issue and this admin is just using my past against me despite the fact that I have been squeaky clean since my return. This is not how an admin should be using their powers.|The blocking admin is involved in a dispute with me, and my actions were supported above by administrator User:John above. After I started moving Baronets to the correct place per Wiki guidelines, BHG started creating redlinked disambiguation pages have been created to circumvent Wikipedia guidelines on the naming of articles about baronets. Look at this edit where BHG creates a disambigution page with redlinks and only one bluelinked article. This was created just to keep Sir Ralph Gore, 4th Baronet at the current name instead of at Ralph Gore. Look at WP:NCNT, Baronets should only be at their full titles for disambiguation, so unless articles exist no disambiguation is needed. Creating disambiguation pages when articles don't exist is in itself disruptive, surely you only need to disambiguate if articles exist? Then I beleive that she wanted to just block me for an reason and choose WP:POINT which is totally unsubstantiated. I have calmly discussed the issue and this admin is just using my past against me despite the fact that I have been squeaky clean since my return. This is not how an admin should be using their powers.]]}}

• Vintagekits, I did not say I supported your actions, particularly not your threat to rename other articles in a way which others are unhappy with. I said I thought you were right on the content issue. As you know, this is a cooperative venture and we must all work together harmoniously so that it works properly. That said, I think the block is on the harsh side and I would support shortening it if you acknowledge your error and guarantee to avoid repeating it. --John 20:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually you said I was right not in changing the names - I dont understand why you are changing your story now! Puzzling. I did not threaten to do anything - I offered to stop changing the names in line with wiki policy if BHG apologised but would continue if she didnt withdraw the unfounded accusatiuon - nothing wrong with that.--Vintagekits 20:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

SHORTENING IT!!!! WHat the hell am I supposed to have done?????? Editing to wiki guidlines after discussions is disruting?? I would say that creating a load of redlink disamb pages to avoid wiki guidelines is disruption and a brach of POINT not what I did - this is bloody crazy.--Vintagekits 20:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

sAm I supposed to be psychic. If no articles exists and there's no mention of these people in other articles (I'm sure that applies to some, there will be a few where you're guilty) how are you supposed to know if disambiguation was needed? As for no discussion - see Talk:Sir Windham Carmichael-Anstruther, 7th Baronet!!--Vintagekits 20:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• • I said I agreed with you on the naming issue. However, you were wrong to threaten to continue renaming articles unless you received an apology. BHG asked you nicely not to do that while a discussion was in progress. That seemed like a reasonable request, and not one necessitating an apology. --John 20:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• • Nevertheless I have left a message with the blocking admin to see if she will agree to unblock if you realise your mistake. Good luck. --John 20:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• I didnt threaten to do anything thats such a smokescreen for an admin who was indispute with me just to block me - if you can call it a threat to follow wiki policy - I also threaten to assume good faith and threaten to make not personal attack. BHG never asked me to do anything BHG just made accusation and gave out warnings and created redlink disamb pages to avoid wiki policy - yet I am blocked - this is a bloody disgrace. It just seems a convieniant made up excuse to block me because she didnt like my edits - also did I change any new articles after I "threatened" to follow policy. Am I in a mad house here? By the way I am very calm here--Vintagekits 20:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This block is totaly out of order, VK was following WP policy by moving these articles to the correct article titles, I have moved about 10 of these articles myself over the past few weeks, if the editors that create these articles can't do so in accordance to policy then other editors have the right to move these articles.--padraig 20:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Second Padraig. If VK really is in the wrong a 24 hour maximum block might be appropriate, SqueakBox 20:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It should also be noted that the blocking admin is a member of Wikipedia:WikiProject_Baronetcies#Interested_Wikipedians this is a COI that he is involved in both the Wikiproject and also in a edit dispute with VK on this.--padraig 21:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I would also point out that this admin blocked me before for edit warring on an article about a Baronet and didnt block another member of the Baronet project despite the fact that that editor had reverted that page more than me that day - interesting!!--Vintagekits 21:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

For me evidence this whole British/Irish editors disputes should be up in front of arbcom and not left in the hands of individual and often biased editors. But the arbcom authority is being undermined every day by comm sanctions board and individual admins, SqueakBox 21:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I wouldnt disagree with that at all. However, there should not be a dispute here. I was following WP:NCNT#Other_non-royal_names Point 4 to the letter of the law. BHG created a load of red link disamb pages to avoid this guideline despite there being no other articles about people with the same name. To turn this around on me is a disgrace - truely some action should be taken against this admin for his actions here.--Vintagekits 21:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This is so out of order, so bang out of order. Guilty of creating a problem that dose not exist? And guilty of addressing a problem that dose? Having played by the rules, to be blocked by an admin with a declared bias!Wikipedia:WikiProject_Baronetcies#Interested_Wikipedians Logic turned on its head. Could someone explain to me how this works? To abide by the guidelines is considered POV pushing, by editors who breach the guidelines in order to push their POV. Have I got that right? --Domer48 22:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid that you haven't got that right. Please bear with me while I finish writing a (neccessarily rather lengthy) explanation. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

For some, no explanation is necessary, for others, none is possible. --Domer48 23:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I wait the explanantion eagerly, SqueakBox 23:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This block is totally out of order. How can a user be blocked for following wiki rules and rectifying a problem that exists on WP? Total madness. Also no offence to BHG, but she definetly has a conflict of interest here. An admin who is a member of the wikiproject and an admin, certainly isn't a fair referee in this case. The block is 100% unfair. Derry Boi 00:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit concerned here re. this block but I'd like to see what BHG has to say, so suggest people hold off until she has written up her explanation - Alison ☺ 00:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• The real issue here is the incorrect naming of articles to suit POV. These articles are named contrary to wikiguides and we should really be focused on those that create these over disambiguated titles rather than block those how actually would prefer if wikiguideliens are adhered to. Here is a taste of some more unnecessarily over disambiguated articles about Baronets are -

• Sir Currimbhoy Ebrahim, 1st Baronet - has a redirect of Currimbhoy Ebrahim - why?
• Sir Ivan Ewart, 6th Baronet - but nothing for Ivan Ewart
• Sir James Gibson-Craig, 1st Baronet but nothing for James Gibson-Craig
• Sir Thomas Gladstone, 2nd Baronet has a redirect of Thomas Gladstone
• Sir William Gordon-Cumming, 4th Baronet has a redirect of William Gordon-Cumming
• Sir David Graaff, 1st Baronet but nothiong for David Graaff
• Sir Derrick Gunston, 1st Baronet has a redirect of Derrick Gunston
• Sir Robert Gunter, 1st Baronet has a redirect of Robert Gunter
• Sir George Clements Hamilton, 1st Baronet has a redirect of George Clements Hamilton
• Sir Charles John James Hamilton, 3rd Baronet nothing for Charles John James Hamilton
• Sir James Henderson-Stewart, 1st Baronet has a redirect of James Henderson-Stewart
• Sir Arthur Heywood, 3rd Baronet has a redirect of Arthur Heywood
• Sir Isaac Holden, 1st Baronet has a redirect of Isaac Holden
• Sir Austin Hudson, 1st Baronet has a redirect of Austin Hudson
• Sir Walter Benton Jones, 2nd Baronet and nothing for Walter Benton Jones

I could go on and on - and on - but I think the above highlights the real issue here - articles are incorrectly titled - members of the Baronet project have a default policy of incorrectly naming their article - this is the issue here - but god forbide that you you try and rectify that issue our else "friendly admin" will silence you.--Vintagekits 11:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

VK, you do go on and on, and have gone on and on :(

But please consider the two examples I have shown below, one from this list, and one from a move by Padraig, where there is clear ambiguity. And, again: The naming conventions are not a policy and are not set in stone. Why are you treating them as if they were, even when that creates the avoidable ambiguity illustrated in my two examples below? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Extended reasons for the block

The underlying problem here is that VK has been on one pole of a lengthy and bitter dispute over baronets. Some editors have argued that all Baronets should be regarded as inherently notable by virtue of their baronetcies, which is a proposition I have argued against at length on the wikiproject, and which is not supported by the proposed guideline WP:NOBLE (which was itself rejected because it was too inclusive).

At the other pole, VK has a very strong bias against what he perceives as the British establishment. There's nothing wrong at all with that, and the presence of opposing POVs is one of the checking mechanisms which keeps Wikipedia balanced, but in this case it has gotten right out if hand. I don't know who started it, but so far as I can see the disputes arose when some editors working on the British aristocracy got into arguments with VK over two things: where to find NPOV in articles relating to Northern Ireland. The British crew objected strongly (and angrily) to the use of neutral words like "kill", insisting on "murder" etc, a position which seems to me to be a very poor one (I much prefer the Reuters policy of using neutral terminology). They ended up block-voting and various other no-nos on articles about Irish Republicanism, and VK and a few of his friends proceeded to launch a lengthy deletion campaign against baronets and nobility, but particularly the boaronets (apparently because Kittybrewster, one of the most energetic members of the Baronets project was one of those who had offended VK). Some of their targets were indeed non-notable, but many were not, and a huge amount of time was taken up in what became a pitched battle. There were numerous AfDs, and some outrageous behaviour on both sides.

I was frequently called on by both sides to intervene, and my talk page archives are full of lengthy arguments; I began to loathe them and wished they would all calm down (see e.g. Anti-aristocracy) and some (such as this thread) appeared and grew on my talk page withut even any involvement from me). Two features are notable: both sides have been deeply inflexible, and Vintagekit takes it all very personally. My archives are full of deep hostility from him, and gross incivility; but the most notable and destructive thing is that if VK feels offended, his response has on countless occasions been to set out to disrupt the area of wikipedia worked on by those he feels are his opponents.

My thanks for this has largely been to earn the displeasure of both sides. Kittybrewster was deeply offended that I eventually came down hard on his persistent breaches of WP:COI (I imposed several blocks), and Vintagekits assumed that any time I didn't weigh in his side that it was due to deep partisanship on my part. One particularly bizarre example is a thread called What is it with these people, where VK launches a tirade at me because I don't want to commit a whole further dose of my time to the never-ending conflict. :(

I would happily avoid the while thing, except that unfortunately it overlaps with my core area of work: British Members of Parliament and parliamentary constituencies. If you look at my contribs list, you will find that I have created many hundreds of articles on them, and had a big hand in building and populating the categories, lists etc.

(Bear with me, I'm getting to the point).

The problem is that many MPs became peers (either through ennoblement or succession), and in previous centuries many many baronets were MPs, so many of the articles I edit are on baronets, and it can be very hard wor to get them right. Some baronetted families held parliamentary seats pretty much as personal fiefdoms for many generations, and many of them recycled one or two or three firstnames. So there could be several "Sir John Smith, xth baronet"s in parliament, through generations; in many cases there is more than one baronetcy of the same name, so one can find two or more "Sir John Smith 2nd Baronet, of X" being notable MPs and in many cases several other untitled family members with the same names sharing the same cluster of parliamentary seats; some of them are also very notable in other contexts. Disambiguating these people can be a nightmare: there are times I have spent a dozen or more hours sorting out the links to members of just one family, who may have a five or ten very similarly-named people who on investigation have an automatic presumption of notability per WP:MOSBIO.

Slowly, with some families, we are getting to the point where we can identify with reasonable certainty which family members are definitely non-notable, as Choess has just done very neatly with the Glynne Baronets. But until that is done, and the non-notable family members identified, it is very important to use the precise titles until it is clear which title-holers are notable and which are not.

Please note that is not because I think that baronets are automatically notable: under all current and proposed guidelines, they are not. But, under current guidelines, many of them are notable, because of their military, parliamentary, naval, commercial or other careers. (Yes, onlya minority overall, but that's still often several in each family).

Once the list of X baronets (e.g. Beckett Baronets) has been checked, I have no problem with the articles being renamed without titles if here is no clash; but until then, it is immensely disruptive to lose the precision of linking which cones from using the titles.

That's all I seek here: don't remove the titles until sufficient checks have been done to ensure that there really is no ambiguity. That's entirely compliant with the guidelines to use the titles when necessary for disambiguation.

Vintagekits, however, has shown no interest at all in making those checks, renaming articles at a rate of up to five per minute, despite creating some mistaken links in the process, and hindering he process of disambiguating articles under construction. It appears that VK's checks consist of looking at the bare list of names of baronets, seeing if there are any other blue links of the same name, but not looking behind the redlinks, or at other incoming links.

Other editors are doing those checks, and I myself rename baronet articles without the titles when I have checked that I am not creating ambiguity. That's all this is about: not creating ambiguity which will lead the reader to the wrong page, as some of VK's edits did

In other cases, that would be no problem: the overwhelming majority of editors are keen to try ensure that the encyclopaedia is accurate, and will happily discuss the issues and in many cases join in the work of doing the mountains of cross-checking. Unfortunately, because of the long and bitter dispute, Vintagekits is not prepared to do that: his main interest is in deleting as many baronets as possible, and talk page archives are full of his sneering comments about them. He's entitled to his views (and I am not a devotee of the hereditary principle either), but what he is doing here is not about improving the encyclopaedia: it is the latest round in what has become a war by VK against anything to do with baronets.

The reason I implemented the block was very simple: that having already inappropriately renamed a dozen or so articles, VK threatened to set off and wreak havoc across the rest of them purely as a matter because of a personal dispute arising from his personal conflicts with some other editors who work on baronetcies. I acted to protect the encyclopaedia from further damage.

Just as well, I did too: in the time between first messaging Vintagekits and blocking him, he made a long list of edits such as this one in which he not only bypassed a redirect from Sir Gervase Beckett, 1st Baronet to Gervase Beckett, but also removed his title. Why? That's not policy or guidelines, it's VK's anti-baronetcy POV. The block at least put a stop to that of disruption. (And before anyone accuses me of taking a POV stance on this, do not assume that wanting something accurately recorded is the same as championing it. I just want links to point in the right place).

Could I have imposed a block for a shorter time? Yes, of course. But in imposing blocks, admins are advised to bear in mind the previous record of the offender. And in this case we have some with a clear and lengthy history of trying to disrupt content associated with editors he dislikes or subjects he dislikes, and indeed some clear guidance from VK himself.

Please folks, re-read the lengthy discussions above when VK was indefinitely blocked. (start at the section beginning User_talk:Vintagekits#Indef_block, and read the discussion of conditions for he lifting of the block). One particularly relevant contribution is where, Vintagekits asked that "a strict nonosense approach taken by admin to edit warring and POV pushing". When he threatened a disruptive mass-renaming of articles, I took him at his word.

One final point: accusations of a COI. If VK performs this threatened mass-renaming, the result will be many hundreds of ambiguous links, which will taken many many hours for editors to sort out. To get an idea of the sort of ambiguity problems which arise with baronets, look at John Cotton (disambiguation); consider the consequences for link integrity if very great care is not taken to make detailed prior checks before renaming.

If trying to avoid the morass of broken links that arises from unchecked removal of precision in naming is a COI, them it's a COI which I hope is shared by every other editor on wikipedia. I have no desire to be involved in any of this, and no inherent dispute with VK: I just find myself, as so many others have, being accused of deep hostility for having dared not to support him on something (consider again his response here when I asked him to go to ANI with a problem beacuse I hadn't the energy to try to resolve yet another of his conflicts), or in this case to disagree with him. We see exactly the same thing here: Vintagekits threatens to disrupt Wikipedia by performing a mass-renaming as a way of forcing an apology, and when bocked denies making a threat.

The core of this simple. Do you want to give free rein to an editor with a long track record of disruption who has repeatedly expressed his deep hostility to a subject where he wants to perform lots of edits?

The document on which VK is relying is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). It does not ban the use of titles where disambiguation is needed, and in any case it is not a policy, it is a guideline, whose header says "it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception". Is it common sense to seek an interpretation of a guideline which makes it harder for readers and editors to ensure that links point where they should, and that article names err on the side of ambiguity rather than precision? That's what VK claims. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse my French but that is a crock of bs, you just ramble in a hope that editors see my previous poor history and think I must have done something here but dont address reason for this block - what has my history got to do with this either, I have been squeaky clean since I came back to wiki, I have engaged with those who have opposed me and infact quelled situations on many occasion, I dont deny my previously poor behaviour but I havent put a foot wrong since I came back and I thought that that was the whole reason I came back with a block on republican articles so I could start with a clean slate - when I retitled the articles they were all moved to what they should have been correctly titled in line with wiki policy - you obviously did not like that then YOU went and created a load of disamb pages with the only article actually on it being the article I rename being the that of the article I renamed and the rest being redlinks - a pure breach of WP:POINT and then you try and turn this around on me!!! For proof see - William Bowyer-Smijth, Ralph Gore, Thomas Bowyer, Windham Carmichael-Anstruther, George Bonham, Theodore Brinckman, Brook Bridges, Robert Gore-Booth for proof of the stunt that this admin has pull to try avoid wiki policy.

Lets get on to the threat that I made - I threatened to ensure ALL articles are named correctly - that is what I threatened to do - I threatened to follow the rules and I am blocked for three weeks by an admin who is in dispute with me and a member of the Baronet project.

As for having no positive interest in Baronets - thats an interesting point especially as I created Sir Henry Gore-Booth, 5th Baronet only a week ago - and may I add that I changed the article title on that page also after I found that it was unecessarily disambiguated.--Vintagekits 09:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I disagree with you on a number of points, firstly if members of the baronetcies project titled these articles correctly in the first place instead on insisting that titles be used in all cases then this problem wouldn't arise.

You say VK moved these without checking them first, because in your opinion they where moved to quickly, how do you know he didn't check through them all before starting to move any of them. In any case the first instance of the use of the name has no need to use the title, only from the second or more occurence. You haven't explained your setting up of disambig pages containing redlinks, it is not common practice to do this, as your well aware.

VK was editing in accordance to the policies and guidelines of WK, and has not breached any policy in his edits in these articles, so his edits are not disruptive as you claim. Nor do members of the baronetcies project have the right to ignore the naming conventions of WP that all other editors have to obey.

The ban on VK should be lifted as it should not have been imposed in the first place and as you where involved in the same dispute you should have been the one to impose it anyway even if he breached any policy which he clearly hasn't.--padraig 02:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

As an uninvolved admin... the claims by both sides that they're not disrupting the project ring pretty false. You all are wikilawyering.

These actions, probably on both sides, were disruptive and damaging to the project. Maybe blocking everyone involved would be more fair, but this is what happened so far. If the two "sides" can't work out a reasonable cooperative way to deal with this, as opposed to resuming edit warring over it, I am going to predict more blocks in the future.

If you're using policy to attempt to justify being a dick and disrupting stuff, expect to get swatted on the nose and told to knock it off.

I don't want to ascribe blame for starting it, but everyone involved needs to handle it in a more cooperative and adult manner going forwards, or this will not be the last administrator intervention. This behavior is absolutely not acceptable.

I don't personally know or care what the answer ends up being. If it's "we're still edit warring" in another few weeks, a pox on all your houses, and away you go. Georgewilliamherbert 02:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

This sort of brouhaha is exactly what was hoped to be avoided by banning Vk from "contentious" subjects as a condition of his recent unblocking. The specific terms of the ban were articles relating to Irish Republicanism, broadly based. (IE, VK will have to show that it isn't tangentially related to the subject, not that others will have to prove that it is). The purpose of this was to allow Vk to contribute while avoiding situations where he had trouble dealing with conflict. That Vk almost immediately started editing baronetcy articles worried me, because the past conflicts associated with the Irish republicanism pages spilled across to these too. It depresses me that Vk rushed to get involved into this situation, barely weeks after his very last chance. It really doesn't fill me with confidence that Vk can deal with conflict in an acceptable way. I don't know the ins and outs of the baronetcy issue, I'm going to decline to offer an opinion on that. I will note, however, that is never a good idea to threaten to edit an article in any manner unless another editor makes an apology. Rockpocket 03:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Please tell me exactly what this massive threat was!!!! Also did I carry out this massive threat??--Vintagekits 09:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Padraig, this isue actually has little to do with the baronetcies project: I only joined it for help with baronet-MPs, as you can see here, and I don't support the argument that baronets should be treated as automatically notable. It is really about disambiguating Members of Patrliament (MPs)

The question of what you call "titling the articles properly" is the nub of it. First thing is that I am not arguing that naming conventions should be ignored, far from it: simply that they should be interpeted, as the guidelines themselves require, with common sense. Interpreting the guidelines in a way guaranteed to cause disruption, when there is a clear history on VK's part of a desire the disrupt and delete articles on baronets, is 'not common sense.

I asked you on my talk page to consider some particular situations, to explain why it is disruptive, and I'm sorry to see that you haven't addressed the details, so let me set it out here.

Take the example of Sir John Cotton, 3rd Baronet, of Connington (1621–1702): an article should be written on him because he was a Member of Parliament for Huntingdon from 1661-1679 and for Huntingdonshire 1685-1687: he therefore has automatic presumption of notability per WP:MOSBIO.

Now look at Cotton Baronets, and you will see lots of other John Cottons listed, all of them redlinked. By your logic, an article on him should be at John Cotton (unless there is, as in this case, another article on a John Cotton).

If you look at the list of Cotton Baronets, you'll just see a list of names. You won't be aware that there were in fact no less than five John Cottons who were MPs (I have created that list on the dab page at John Cotton, and one of these days must incorporate that info into the list of Baronets). If I hadn't done the research you probably won't be aware too that here were actually two people called Sir John Cotton, 3rd Baronet who were MPs (and similarly with Sir John Cotton, 4th Baronet)

The Cotton Baronets are an extreme example, but there are many dozens (probably hundreds) of baronet-MPs who also had a namesake baronet in parliament. Leigh Rayment's useful list of baronets appears to offer some assistance by listing beside baronets which ones are MPs, but unfortunately it is misleading, because it misses 25% or more. The peerage/baronetage guides such as Debretts can be moe helpful, but it usually takes multiple sources to unravel who was who, and building list of MPs in constituency articles such as Ipswich requires a lot of cross-referencing of birth dates to ensure that links are accurate.

Because so often identically-named members of the same family represented the same constituency, there are only two ways to do this: disambiguate pre-emptively by date of birth, or by title. According to the guideline, the correct method is by title, which is what editors have been doing.

The reason I can say with a high degree of certainty that Vintagekits didn't make such checks is that I know from bitter experience that they are very time-consuming. To check all the articles that VK renamed would take days; and to check all of those he was threatening to rename would take many months. Given VK's oft-stated dislike of baronetcies, it's stretching credibility beyond breaking point to suggest that he has been doing that work.

It's common sense to try to avoid creating ambiguous links. It's not common sense to try to use a flexible guideline as a tool to justify turning carefully-researched precise links into ambiguous ons.

Aren't we here to try to improve the encyclopedia? How on earth is it improved by deliberately renaming article in a way which reverses the efforts of other editors to ensure that links point where they are supposoed to?

WP:IAR says "If a rule prevents you from working with others to improve or maintain Wikipedia, ignore it"; VK is doing the reverse, trying to use a narrow interpretation of a rule to damage the encyclopedia because he despises the subject matter. Vintagekits is quite entitled to despise baronets, and to despise the system of title, but not to disrupt wikipedia because of it.

Faced with a clear threat to continue continue that disruption, I acted promptly to prevent it. As it turned out it was more than a threat: more disruptive editing was actually underway when he was blocked. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

That is a false argument - I checked wiki to see if there was another article of the same name - there was not, there was only redlinks - if they are redlnks then an account of there notability does not need to be taken into account. I was following Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) to the letter of the law - you caused the problem after this by creating redlink disamb pages.--Vintagekits 09:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Georgewilliamherbert thanks for your comment: I agree that the whole situation is far from ideal. But seriously, what should I have done?

Ignore the dusruption? Take it to somewhere like WP:ANI and while I took time to explain the nuances give VK more time to do the damage he was threatening, undoing hundreds of not thousands of hours of work by other editors?

The bottom line here is that is rare to find a situation where these issues cannot be reserved with an editor genuinely seeking to improve the subject area, regardless of their POV. (It happens, but it's nearly always possible to edit an article to accommodate both sides of an issue). This is the only case I have ever encountered of an editor who is setting out with he main objective of removing as much trace of a subject as possible.

Here's one interesting point: so far as I can see, nowhere in any of these discussions, have seen any effort by Vintagekits to extend or improve coverage of MPs or of baronets, or even any desire to do so. All I have ever seen has been negative: arguments to delete articles or otherwise disrupt them. Isn't it time to extend his ban to cover other areas such as MPs and baronets, where he has such a long track record of conflict? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I support your actions 100% BrownHairedGirl, I had no idea Vk was doing this. Per Rockpocket, I am horrified that he has rushed back into a contentious area. When I naively supported my own stylistic preference for the naming, I did not know this had been a whole area of conflict. Vintagekits, you have been told a good few times now you cannot use this encyclopedia for POV-pushing. Threatening editors with making edits unless they apologise is ridiculous behaviour. That is what you are blocked for and if I were you, knowing the whole story and everything, I would just accept the block and be thankful it isn't a longer one. --John 03:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You have hated me since I joined wiki and have tried at every turn to get me banned - initially you actually agree that my edits were correct but now that there is a sniff of a banned and that this may impeed my from getting back to editing republican articles now all of a sudden you are supporting 100% BrownHairedGirl despite the opposite above and are also now "horrified" - please explain the threat that I made - this threat BS is a total smokescreen to take away from BHG creating this problem.--Vintagekits 09:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I have to say, I'm largely satisfied with that explanation from BHG and am somewhat disappointed that VK went straight back into the baronetcy controversy like that. From what I remember, there was a slew of RfCs last year over this whole thing. VK's move logs show a lot of activity, all with the comment "per MOS". Personally, I'd not have applied a block of that duration; rather I'd have started at a day or even a week, from the agreed unblock resolutions above. Though I'm not familiar with/interested in the subject, I can follow BHG's rationale for the existing naming scheme and, unfortunately, I find it hard to do the WP:AGF thing here, given VK's past history. There are over a million articles here and VK's stepping back into the whole baronetcies thing was not in the spirit of his unblock agreement. In short - it's a long block, but I have to endorse it here - Alison ☺ 04:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Alidon - why block me - why, what reason I have done NOTHING wrong - please read WP:NCNT#Other_non-royal_names and then explain why I am blocked. Earlier this week Padraig moved a number of these articles unopposed and cited the same reason - there was nothing said about this as it was within wiki guidelines - then I do the same a couple of days later and I am blocked for three weeks. This makes me sick - I have done nothing whatsoever wrong here, I dont deny my previous bad behaviour but this is wrong, completely wrong.--Vintagekits 09:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd support a shorter block. Actually on this issue I tend to be on VK's side (see Jeffrey Archer) but we should surely be using blocks to stop bad behaviour which a 24 or even 72 hour block would do well, plus it would avoid any tiresome accusations about the validity of the admin's action, SqueakBox 04:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The issues with Jeffrey Archer are rather different, because a) he's clearly v. notable on several counts, and b) there doesn't appear to be anyone else of the same name even potentially notable enough to merit an article.

However, on Vintagekits's block, how about shortening it if his ban is explicitly extended to cover baronets and British MPs (as a more limited version of a suggestion above at #Suggested_conditions)? These are clearly-defined topics where his passions run high, and where as a result he regularly gets into conflicts when he ventures into those territories. --09:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I was blocked from articles within the WP:IR - not articles on Baronets - I edited within wiki guidelines, no matter how manner bogus smoke screen you try to throw up to ignore that - it is the facts - you then subsequently created the issue with all of your redlink disamb pages - that was the breach of WP:POINT - you should really have the issue with those creating articles with incorrect titles and not me. --Vintagekits 09:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

"I regard admin powers as a privilege to be used sparingly and judiciously" - really!!! Seems that here you have used it arbitrarially and as a weapon to silence editors who dare to disagree with you - all you have actually done is shown a massive lights on how wiki guidlines and policies are being ignored in this area.--Vintagekits 09:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• Why is BHG not mentioning all the moves I made and only the ones that she created disamb pages for after I moved them (correctly and in line with wiki policy) - what about Gervase Beckett - who was incorrectly disambed to Sir Gervase Beckett, 1st Baronet or Leslie Boyce - who was incorrectly disambed to Sir Harold Leslie Boyce, 1st Baronet or Edward Bowyer-Smijth - who was incorrectly disambed to Sir Edward Bowyer-Smijth, 10th Baronet or Noël Bowater - who was incorrectly disambed to Sir Noël Vansittart Bowater, 2nd Baronet or Noël Bowater???? I could go on but I just looked at the Baronets beginning with B. Once again - admin close ranks and throw up a smoke screen to deflect from one of "their own" breaching policy and acting like a warrior - but no sahock there eh.--Vintagekits 09:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

In the above explanation, I can see a lot of what passes for motivation, personal motivation that is. In fact, there is a lot there for editors to disagree on and at the same time lose the substance of the real discussion at hand.

Therefore, as to the commentary, weasel word and peacock terms. I suggest editors park it for the moment, and address it in a RfC. VK has been the subject of an indefinite block, which has been addressed, rehashing it now, is to mitigate the actions BHG, in place of dealing with this issue at hand. That is VK actions in this case, and did he breach the conditions outlined in their lifting of the Block.

VK inappropriately renamed a dozen or so articles. What were they, list them?

Threatened to wreak havoc. (BHG acted to protect the encyclopaedia ). What did VK threaten to do? “I will ensure that all Baronets are titled correctly - if she apologies then I will put a hold on any changes until the issues if fully sorted out.” Apply guidelines, or cause BHG problems. I totally disagree with VK suppressing their views and opinions, to facilitate ambiguity, rather than insisting on the problem being address.

I would suggest BHG address the ambiguity, and not the editor. BHG keeps going on about disruption, and then lists the problems they are having with the articles, and how this will discomfiture them. Wanting VK banned from BHG’s area of interest is an abuse of position, in other words, it will be ok to have this ambiguous situation if there is no one to question it.

VK bypassed a redirect Gervase Beckett. The problem associated with Baronets is not a problem for VK, and their interpretation of guidelines. If there is ambiguity address it!

Assuming VK did not do their homework, maybe they did to make sure they got it right, because of past experience. It’s up to editors to get it right if there is a possible problem with disambiguation.

I would suggest that this guideline be address, as its interpretation is the cause of conflict. That the block be lifted, and VK agree to engage in the discussion, and they retract and strike through their statement to “put a hold on any changes until the issues if fully sorted out.”--Domer48 09:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Vintagekits, you are wikilawyering, in a deeply unproductive and mistaken fashion. As above, WP:NCNT is a guideline, not a policy (as you keep on calling it).

It is intended to reflect a convention, not to be used as an edict to cause problems. Read the header: "it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception". It's common sense to try to avoid creating ambiguous links. It's not common sense to try to use a flexible guideline as a tool to justify turning carefully-researched precise links into ambiguous ones.

You did indeed do some moves of baronets which were correct, such as Gervase Beckett (where there is no ambiguity, and which I did not revert), tho you rather spoilt that one by then going around a stripping his title out of lots of links to him (see e.g. [15], [16] and [17]])

However, there were others which you moved despite the existence of another article , e.g. Sir Thomas Burnett, 3rd Baronet, which you moved to Thomas Burnett despite the existence of Sir Thomas Burnett, 1st Baronet. When you go around stripping out titles without checking on the notability of other similarly-named title-holders, that's what happens.

What exactly are you trying to achieve by interpreting the guideline so narrowly and rigidly as to create the sort ambiguity I outlined above as a problem wrt to the Cotton Baronets?

Remember the naming conventions are not set in stone. Why are you treating them as if they were, even when that creates avoidable ambiguity? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

If as you point out the Gervase Beckett move was correct then why did you move it back?--Vintagekits 10:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Why did I strip out the titles?? You bloody told me to thats why!!!! You said the main issue was that I didnt fix the redirect - so I was going back and fixing the redirect - then you blocked me - you are a bloody disgrace using your admin powers to silence those you oppose - I was editing in line with wiki policy (not guidelines - really sorry!) but you didnt like that this is the root of this abuse. All you have done is show yourself up - I have done nothing wrong here and you are proving that by relying on my previous poor history to justify your actions despite the fact I did nothing wrong - I am not wikilawyering you are, if we strip this arguement down to its basic facts it is obvious who is in the wrong.--Vintagekits 10:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

If I made ONE mistake by moving Sir Thomas Burnett, 3rd Baronet, then sorry for that but if that was raised as an issue the I would have gladly changed it back.--Vintagekits 10:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no ambiguity - you created disamb pages to create the ambiguity - you are the root cause of this problem not I - why was there no issue when PAdraig moved the articles that he did - based on the same principle and policy - but when I do the EXACT same thing citing the EXACT same policy then I get blocked for 3 weeks - you have shown your cards and your POV and it disgusts me.--Vintagekits 10:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Vintage, please be WP:CIVIL. I'm sorry, I made a mistake in reverting Gervase Beckett. We all make mistakes, as nicely illustratred here.

However, If you look above, you'll see that I asked you to fix double-redirects, not other redirects. Not necessarily any harm in fixing the single redirects, but you didn't content yourself with that: in repeated edits (e.g. [18], [19] and [20]]) you not only bypassed a redirect but removed the title "Sir" from the displayed text. What was that about?

Padraig moved some articles, but I didn't notice those moves. When I noticed yours, and queried them you threaten to engage in a mass-renaming. That's why you got blocked.

Again, remember the naming conventions are not set in stone. Why are you treating them as if they were, even when that creates avoidable ambiguity? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh so you admit we all make mistakes! I fixing the redirects was not to go and remove the "Sir" it has to fix the links to the correct articles. There is no ambiguty so thats not an issue. Please show me where I threatened "to engage in a mass-renaming". Lets see you justify yourself without the smoke screens - you breach wikipolicy and I dont = I get blocked for 3 weeks - this stinks of, shall we say, rotten fish!--Vintagekits 10:52, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Vinatgekits, two points:

• this is the edit in which you threatened "to engage in a mass-renaming"
• the naming conventions are not a policy and are not set in stone. Why are you treating them as if they were, even when that creates avoidable ambiguity? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I would rather edit to policy rather than have it ambiguous - if nothing it set in stone lets just title articles what we want to suit us shall he - I see no special reason to ignore wiki policy to suit your POV. Also the edit you highlight as "mass naming" - actually proves my point in two way - I state that I would rename articles to their correct title - 1. I am saying that articles should be correctly titled for god sake - what the hell is wrong with that and 2. if you consider that that would consist of "mass renaming" shows that you consider that a mass amount of articles are incorrectly named - check and mate - I will happily sit out the three weeks block, infact I would be happy to, as it shows you for what you really are. This is a serious shame on wiki and your silencing of me wont make the problem go away no matter how much you try - your actions have brought disgrace on your adminship. Three week block for saying that articles should be correctly titled but an admin can WP:POINT and create numberous redlink disamb pages to avoid wiki policy and get away with it - thats a disgrace.--Vintagekits 11:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• The real issue here is the incorrect naming of articles to suit POV. These articles are named contrary to wikiguides and we should really be focused on those that create these over disambiguated titles rather than block those how actually would prefer if wikiguideliens are adhered to. Here is a taste of some more unnecessarily over disambiguated articles about Baronets are -

• Sir Currimbhoy Ebrahim, 1st Baronet - has a redirect of Currimbhoy Ebrahim - why?
• Sir Ivan Ewart, 6th Baronet - but nothing for Ivan Ewart
• Sir James Gibson-Craig, 1st Baronet but nothing for James Gibson-Craig
• Sir Thomas Gladstone, 2nd Baronet has a redirect of Thomas Gladstone
• Sir William Gordon-Cumming, 4th Baronet has a redirect of William Gordon-Cumming
• Sir David Graaff, 1st Baronet but nothiong for David Graaff
• Sir Derrick Gunston, 1st Baronet has a redirect of Derrick Gunston
• Sir Robert Gunter, 1st Baronet has a redirect of Robert Gunter
• Sir George Clements Hamilton, 1st Baronet has a redirect of George Clements Hamilton
• Sir Charles John James Hamilton, 3rd Baronet nothing for Charles John James Hamilton
• Sir James Henderson-Stewart, 1st Baronet has a redirect of James Henderson-Stewart
• Sir Arthur Heywood, 3rd Baronet has a redirect of Arthur Heywood
• Sir Isaac Holden, 1st Baronet has a redirect of Isaac Holden
• Sir Austin Hudson, 1st Baronet has a redirect of Austin Hudson
• Sir Walter Benton Jones, 2nd Baronet and nothing for Walter Benton Jones
• Michael O'Loghlen, 1st Baronet with nothing for Michael O'Loghlen
• Sir Alfred Rawlinson, 3rd Baronet with nothing for Alfred Rawlinson
• Sir Sitwell Sitwell, 1st Baronet with nothing for Sitwell Sitwell
• Sir Frederick Thomson, 1st Baronet with nothing for Frederick Thomson
• Sir Richard Tufton, 1st Baronet with nothing for Richard Tufton
• Sir Kenneth Pickthorn, 1st Baronet which has a redirect from Kenneth Pickthorn
• Sir John Ruggles-Brise, 2nd Baronet which has a redirect from John Ruggles-Brise
• Sir John Hugo Rutherford, 2nd Baronet which has a redirect from John Hugo Rutherford
• Sir Frank Sanderson, 1st Baronet which has a redirect from Frank Sanderson
• Sir Richard Mathias, 1st Baronet which has a redirect from Richard Mathias
• Sir Osbert Sitwell, 5th Baronet which has a redirect from Osbert Sitwell
• Sir Sacheverell Sitwell, 6th Baronet which has a redirect from Sacheverall Sitwell
• Sir George Sitwell, 4th Baronet which has a redirect from George Sitwell
• Sir Gordon Touche, 1st Baronet which has a redirect from Gordon Touche
• Sir George Bullough, 1st Baronet is a redirect of George Bullough
• Sir Harry Calvert, 1st Baronet is a redirect of Harry Calvert
• Sir Guy Campbell, 5th Baronet although it should be Guy Campbell
• Sir Thomas Colebrooke, 4th Baronet is a redirect of Thomas Colebrooke
• Sir Samuel Cunard, 1st Baronet is a redirect of Samuel Cunard
• Sir Edward Cust, 1st Baronet is a redirect of Edward Cust
• Sir Currimbhoy Ebrahim, 1st Baronet is a redirect of Currimbhoy Ebrahim
• Sir Richard Denman, 1st Baronet is a redirect of Richard Denman
• Sir Harry Burrard-Neale, 2nd Baronet but nothing for Harry Burrard-Neale
• Sir Francis Crossley, 1st Baronet but nothing for Francis Crossley
• Sir John D'Oyly, 6th Baronet but nothing for John D'Oyly
• Sir Hew Whiteford Dalrymple, 1st Baronet but nothing for Hew Whiteford Dalrymple
• Sir Thomas Dunlop, 1st Baronet but nothing for Thomas Dunlop

Many created by BHG - I could go on and on - and on - but I think the above highlights the real issue here - articles are incorrectly titled - members of the Baronet project have a default policy of incorrectly naming their article - this is the issue here - but god forbide that you you try and rectify that issue our else "friendly admin" will silence you.--Vintagekits 11:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Also its kind of funny to just see USer:Kittybrewster (a friend of BHG) go around in a quick, quick! hurry up and fix those] manner on a number of the articles highlighted. Like I said I could provide another 40, 50, 60 or more if needed to prove the point that this issue has highlighted a long running issue which the Baronet project obviously wantto be kept quiet.--Vintagekits 11:48, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

BHG, You are clearly in the wrong here and abusing your power as an admin, VK hasn't broke any WP policy or guideline so this block is totaly unjustified and should be lifted.--padraig 11:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Some admins are like football referees - they will never change their mind or change a decision even when it is plainly and grossly wrong. This is a master class is "deflect and dodge" - we should all learn from this - 1. I moved articles correctly 2. BHG moved them back and created bogus redlink disamb pages 3. BHG makes accusations against me 4. I refute them and ask her to withdraw them 5. BHG creates a smokescreen to block me and ignores the facts. However, will not make the issue go away - if I have to sit out an unjust block to highlight the issue then that is a small price to show BHG POV and shine a light on the issue.--Vintagekits 11:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I suspect you were only moving those articles to make a point and you have no real interest in correct policy on Baronet titles. Astrotrain 11:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It never takes the vultures long to circle does it - "Vk is weak at the moment, put the boot in" - your not the first. Please read point four here - also you will have noted that I created one of the better and more interesting articles on Baronets recently so that scuppers that argument. --Vintagekits 11:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

BHG, can you explain this this where you moved Isaac Holden to Sir Isaac Holden, 1st Baronet in Oct 2006 when there was no need any still isn't any, and which seems to contradict your early claim that you don't support the members of Wikiproject Baroncety doing this.--padraig 11:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

lets hear your answer to that please BHG--Vintagekits 12:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

VK, please stay out of my email inbox until such point as you can control yourself. That was just uncalled-for - Alison ☺ 11:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You are supposed to be my mentor - I cannot understand your stance here - I have done nothing whatsoever wrong yet you "endorse the block" - that baffles me - and you expect me to be happy with that!!! Follow wiki policy and get blocked - Breach wiki policy and have fellow admin slap you on the back. Its a total joke.--Vintagekits 11:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't need that kind of abuse from your or anyone else. I campaigned to have your indef block lifted where others wouldn't, offered to mediate and help out despite the fact that I clearly and repeatedly stressed that I don't like working in this area (ask Padraig). When this block went on, I strongly suggested that it was overly long and wouldn't be averse to having it reduced. In return, you send me abusive emails. Now, I know you're annoyed by what's gone down here but answer this; why on earth should I stick around here and put up with that? - Alison ☺ 12:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Pádraig, based on the repetitions of the accusation of “threatening,” for you to suggest changing any of those, even before you do so is considered a threat. VK, based on the observations of those, based on the rational for the block, and not on BHG’s difficulties with those articles, you have a very strong case for having the block lifted. Weather an Admin, has the willingness to do so, is another matter. Do not be goaded by the repetition of nonsensical arguments, or deviate from the issue at hand. If the logic of your position is not endorsed, then it 1. Establishes the guidelines on these pages according to BHG interpretation, and 2. Sets a precedent that will be pointed to by others in a similar position. --Domer48 11:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Domer, please can you clarify exactly why it is so important to you prevent the use a naming format which avoids he sort of tangles set out in my examples below? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Two examples of the effect of removing titles

section break added later --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Padraig, I am just in the middle of fixing the tangles created by your move of one of the Ansteuther abronets to John Anstruther, even tho theev are three baronets aclled John Anstruther (and, as happens in othe cases, two people called Sir John Anstruther, 1st Baronet. That tangle illustrates very clearly why stripping off titles is not a good idea, unless thorough checks have been done to ensure that there is no room for ambiguity. That's precisely why I was concened about the disruptive ptential of VK's threatened mass renaming

Vintakekits list above is interesting: some of those article names are clearly wrong (Sir Firstname Middlename, Nth Baronet is not a format supported by the MoS)

However, I'll take one example from that list which ilustrates the problem very neatly: Sir William Gordon-Cumming, 4th Baronet has a redirect of William Gordon-Cumming

If you look at Gordon-Cumming Baronets, you'll see that this is the only article so far on a person called William Gordon-Cumming, and there is no indication of the notability of the others. However, an an external source (Rayment's list of baronets and his list of MPs) shows that the secnd baronet was MP for Elgin Burghs (UK Parliament constituency), and therefore carries an automatic presumption of notatbility.

Please refer again to he guidelines, which support he use of the titke where needed for disambiguation. In both these cases it clearly is' needed.

And that brings me back again to the same qustion, which CK and padraig need to answer. The naming conventions are not a policy and are not set in stone. Why are you treating them as if they were, even when that creates avoidable ambiguity? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

STOP SAYING THAT I SAID I WOULD UNDERTAKE MASS RENAMING!!!!!!! I NEVER SAID THAT! I SAID I WOULD ENSURE ARTICLES ARE CORRECTLY TITLED!!!!!!!!!!!--Vintagekits 12:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You unambiguously threatened to do a mass renaming of articles, based on what you believe to be a correct interpretation of the guidelines, applied by you without the common sense and exceptions clearly set out in bold in the header of the guideline.

Once again: The naming conventions are not a policy and are not set in stone. Why are you treating them as if they were, even when that creates the avoidable ambiguity illustrated in my two examples above? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

As pointed out above by VK Kittybrewster_contribs] clearly show that he is trying to cover BHG tracks here, but a look at some of these moves he was made are proof that many of these articles are wrongly titled,

• Sir George Clements Hamilton, 1st Baronet moved to Sir George Hamilton, 1st Baronet
• Sir Walter Benton Jones, 2nd Baronet moved to Sir Walter Jones, 2nd Baronet
• Sir Charles John James Hamilton, 3rd Baronet moved to Sir Charles Hamilton, 3rd Baronet

All these move today, and all cleary mis-titled to cover BHG.--padraig 12:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Padraig, that's a red herring. Kittybrwster's moves are correct, and do not create ambiguity.

Once again: The naming conventions are not a policy and are not set in stone. Why are you treating them as if they were, even when that creates the avoidable ambiguity illustrated in my two examples above? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

No Kitty's moves - just like your creation of the disamb pages were the create ambiguity to enforce your POV.--Vintagekits 12:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Kitty's moves were from a format which the guidelines never recommend to one whoch they do recommend in some circumstances.

Once again: The naming conventions are not a policy and are not set in stone. Why are you treating them as if they were, even when that creates the avoidable ambiguity illustrated in my two examples above, one of which was created by you? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

As BHG has blocked someone who she was in dispute with why hasnt she raised the issue at ANI?? The farce continues!--Vintagekits 12:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Kittybrewsters moves are not correct, they where done specificly to cause a need for disambig, on the first name, the use of first & second names is correct to avoid disambig when necessary, you keep arguing that the naming conventions are not a policy and not set in stone, if thats the case why have members of the Baroncey project been argueing to have it altered to allow every baronet the right to have their full title used in WP as a right, they failed to achieve consenus for this change and are now trying to enforce the change regardless.--padraig 12:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Padraig, check Hamilton Baronets: there is clear ambiguity, because there are five baronets called Charles Hamilton. Have you researched the notability of all of them before criicising the use of he article title Sir Charles Hamilton, 3rd Baronet?

Also I have not been party to the duscussion on changing the guidelines, tho if imlemented it woukd avoid all his trouble. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Once again: The naming conventions are not a policy and are not set in stone. Why are you treating them as if they were, even when that creates the avoidable ambiguity illustrated in my two examples above? --BrownHairedGirl

Bury your head in the sand to suit your POV - but only when its suits you - the policies are not set in stone - fine, but I see no reason to ignore them - you are a disgrace to your adminship for blocking me over this - THREE WEEKS when you are in the wrong not I - you are a disgrace!!!!!! Bury your head in the sand!--Vintagekits 12:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

VK, these are guidelines not policies. There is a difference.

And I am not ignoring them: I am pointing out that in some case, a rigid adherence to a narrow interpetation of them creates avoidable ambiguity. Why are you treating them as if they rigid and immutable, even when that creates the avoidable ambiguity illustrated in my two examples above? What are you really trying to achieve here? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Deflect and dodge - you are not at all acting fair here at all - you have been shown up for what you are - sledgehammer to crack a nut - you know you are in the wrong and no matter how much wikilawyering you do can change that - you block was wrong - plain wrong, you know that, I know that, everyone reading this knows that - I am not trying to convience you my audience is those reading this.--Vintagekits 12:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

No deflection, no dodge. Why are you treating guidelines as if they rigid and immutable, even when that creates the avoidable ambiguity illustrated in my two examples above? Again, what are you really trying to achieve here? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I could turn that question on you! "why are you ignoring guidelines"! Why are you trying to silence your critics? What are you trying to achieve by this block? Dont you want articles to be titled correctly?--Vintagekits 13:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I feel your quote BrownHairedGirl on your user page "I regard admin powers as a privilege to be used sparingly and judiciously" is a bit rich considering it is a dispute you are involved in would it not have been wise to ask another admin to look at this case as you are too involved and any decision you make will always be seen as bias by one side of this argument. BigDunc 12:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Possibly, tho if you look at Vintagekits's history I'm afraid that you'll find that any instance of an admin not backing him is treated by him as evidence of deep bias and an occasional for more vitriol, so in practice I don't think it would have made much difference :(

This a complex situation: in the face of a clear threat from Vk to cause disruption, I acted promptly to stop further disruption, and I asked for it to be reviewed. As above, I wrote a lengthy explanation of the decision (which also took a long time to write), an explanation which has satisfied the admins who reviewed it this morning. . --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, BHG is giving us a run down on their problems, created by articles with so much disambiguation. That is not the issue, being discussed here. If BHG has a problem with the articles sort them out. Blocking VK is not a solution. I’m only interested in this block at the minute, and the justification for it. Lets stick to the subject shall we. --Domer48 12:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that VK instead of helping to sort out the articles, VK is busy undoing any disambiguation without proper checks. That's precisely what we are discussing: how to stop the damage being done. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I did the checks - please stop stating facts which are infact Lies - also I didnt not threaten to breach wiki guides or policy - I said I would follow them - you have blocked me for saying I would follow wiki rules. Anyway that is a smokescreen to cover your bias and your attempt to silence opposition.--Vintagekits 13:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Vk, I'll try again. Why are you treating guidelines as if they rigid and immutable, even when that creates the avoidable ambiguity illustrated in my two examples above? Again, what are you really trying to achieve here? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Well BHG then sort out the cause of the problem, and don’t be issuing block based on the symptom. --Domer48 13:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The cause of the problem is simple: that Vk (who despises titles) is busy removing them from articles which need disambiguation, even when that creates ambuguity.

It is also relevant to read the exchange above between Vk and his mentor, Alison, who also supports the block, and has now had abusive email from him. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Deflect, dodge, avoid!!! Ssave yourself - I didnt not send her an abusive email I said that I was pissed off that she supported it without fully investigating the issue - I also sent her another email apologising for for my tone, no wonder my nerves are frayed with the way you have treated me - imagine if you were on the other end of this!!!!!!!!! - do those emails excuse you bias, conflict of interest and disgraceful actions? Silence that man! He is showing my true colours.--Vintagekits 13:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Vk, I don't want to silence you. On the contrary, I want you to answer the simple question: Why are you treating guidelines as if they rigid and immutable, even when that creates the avoidable ambiguity illustrated in my two examples above? Again, what are you really trying to achieve here? --

I could turn that question on you! "why are you ignoring guidelines"! Why are you trying to silence your critics? What are you trying to achieve by this block? Dont you want articles to be titled correctly?--Vintagekits 13:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

As explained countless times, what I am trying to achieve is disambiguation of closely-realted articles with ambigious names, to ensure that readers get to where they wnat to. The purpose of that block is stop a clearly threateneed effort to disrupt that by someone with a huge long history aof antagonism towards towards the subject area.

Now, how about you answer my question. Why are you treating guidelines as if they rigid and immutable, even when your a rigid adherence to a narrow interpetation creates the avoidable ambiguity illustrated in my two examples above? What are you really trying to achieve here? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no threat to disrupt WP, VK like any other editor has a right to move any article that is wrongly titled in WP, you are using VK as an example to warn off any other editors that if they move any of these Baronet articles they will be blocked your doing so is against WP policy and guidelines. Many of these articles are incorrectly titled, and we don't disamdig articles to create redlinks in the hope that in future these redlinks will be created, we only disambig when necessary for existing articles.

I was accused of vandalism by a member of the Baroncey project because I moved a number of articles not long ago, which turned out some had been created by him, they then tried to have the guidelines changed to prevent any editors from moving any more of these incorrectly titled articles and failed, so this seems to be a backdoor attempt to push the change through, and it won't work, because I will follow the guidelines in any article I feel is incorrectly titled.--padraig 13:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

So now we are introducing material which has transpired as a result of your block. If VK is getting steamed I can well understand it, while not condoning it. But do not attempt to now use this as a reason for the block. Again, I’m not interested in the problems you have with disambiguation. You have interpreted VK’s comment as a threat, and I completely disagree. That is the issue, can we please stay on topic, I’m getting steamed, and not even the one blocked? --Domer48 13:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Padraig, I have illustrated above an example of where you stripping of a title created ambiguity amongst articles which were not redlinked. I have not accused you of vandalism, but please can you explain what you were trying to achieve?

Again, stripping the titles makes it much much harder to create those new articles accurately, because the disambiguation has to be done afresh each time. What exactly are you trying to achieve by rigid adherence to a narrow interpetation which creates the avoidable ambiguity illustrated in my two examples above? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry this discussion is about BHG blocking VK for 3 weeks. You are not going to sort out that problem at VK’s expense are you. If you like, start a discussion on another page about the problems you have with the articles. The question is, are you going to remove the block, and if not, justify it, to the satisfaction of editors. I’m not convinced on the basis of the evidence produced so far. So please stop trying to address the collateral problems here. Thanks --Domer48 13:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I am not going to remove the block, which has already been endorsed by several admins, including Vk's own mentor. This isn't about doing anything at Vk's expense, it about preventing him from re-introducing a problem which is being resolved by other editors through a methodology permitted in the guidelines which Vk is trying to wikilawyer his way into disrupting. That is not a collateral problem: is the core of the issue, that Vk was blocked to stop him causibg the disruption he threatened to a series of articles on people whose names are very similar to others with similar career paths, and near-identical names. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:46, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

All the articles I moved I checked by doing a search for the name without the title on WP I also checked the Baroncey Categories to ensure that there wasn't any others by the same name, so I fail to see how the problem arose. Also it is convention to only disambig for the secon or more instance of the name not from the first as in the first we create a link to the disambig page.--padraig 13:39, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Padraig, I want to assume that you acted in good faith here, but do you see now how the checks you made turned out not to be adequate with the Anstruthers, in the example above? (Maybe because he articles were not categorised as expected or indexed as expected). That's precisely why I am urging caution in these renamings, and why a mass-renaming as threatened by VK is disruptive. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

They may not have been categorised correctly, that dosen't explain how they didn't show in a search on WP for the name, and the issue of categories is the problem of the creator of the articles and those thatmay have edited them afterwards if they failed to do it correctly. It is not a excuse to block an editor for following the guidelines in this case.--padraig 14:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• Where is the report to ANI - dont you think that because you were at the core of the dispute that you had a COI and would be biased in any block you made? I never said I would make mass changes - you did! If I say I will not make mass changes then what is the reason for the block now! Blocks are preventative not punitive - now justify your stance.--Vintagekits 13:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Input from uninvolved admin

(outdent) An uninvolved admin here...If VK threatened to disrupt the 'pedia (which diff I cannot at this moment locate), then a block surely is in order although three weeks seems a bit long to me as it does to others. But BHG should not have been the one to issue the block but should have asked another admin to take a look and make the decision. This would have avoided much of this discussion. Now, can anyone show me the diff where the threat was made? I'm sure I overlooked it. The questions of notability and naming should be settled via the dispute resolution processes. --JodyB _{yak, yak, yak} 14:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• this is the edit in question which she is using to block me. She says that when I say I will "ensure ALL articles are named correctly!" that this is a threat to rename mass amount of articles. It was not, I have already said this - and if it was then she herself is admitted that a "mass amount" of articles are titled incorrectrly - either ways this is unjust.--Vintagekits 14:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Thats the problem he didn't threaten to disrupt, he said he would continue to edit in accordance to WP guidelines on this, they fail to have the guidelines changes and are trying to enforce their wanted change against guidelines. BHG should not have blocked this user as she is involved in the dispute and also a member of the baroncey Wikiproject as well that was behind the proposed change to the guidelines.--padraig 14:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

REply to JodyB: Look, what Vk was doing was to take a rigid approach narrow interpretation of the guidelines and thereby to remove from many hundreds of articles the titles which distinguish them from other notable people who share he same name, and who frequently did exactly the same notable job (being MP for a a particular constituency). That's disruptive.

I have asked Vk over a dozen times what he was trying to achieve by this, and have not had an answer. It's the crucial question: where there is a clear dismabiguation reason for proceeding with caution in these renamings (see the examples above, including Padraig's mistake), what was Vk trying to achieve by his threat?

As I have told Padraig before, and which you can check for yourself, I have had no part in any effort to change the guidelines ... but after this brouhaha, it looks to me that a change in the direction of that proposed would be a good idea if removes the toehold which the current guidelines allow to a wikilawyering editor with a long history of efforts to disrupt work in this area. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

1. "rigid approach narrow interpretation of the guidelines" - that is your interpretation, that is not a cause to block someone you disagree with! 2. "many hundreds of articles" - I moved scarily 20 - you then created redlink disamb pages to avoid the guide (I do not doubt if I had done that then you would have blocked me for that). 3. Again dragging up my past - since I have returned to wiki I have acted immaculately.--Vintagekits 14:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I also categorically stated here that it was not my intention to make "mass movals"--Vintagekits 14:48, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

That is rubbish, I didn't make any mistake I carried out all necessary checks on WP before moving any articles, don't try and blame others for the failure of the creating editors to title articles or categorise them correctly. The guidelines as they stand allow for the moving of incorrectly titled articles, and I will continue to follow that guideline and the normal checks I have been doing in those cases where I come across wrongly titled articles. If there is a problem with the guidelines in your view that try and have them changed, but don't abuse your admin powers against editors following the current guidelines. The current proposal Here failed to achieve consensus. I this case you should lift this block and bring this to ANI to be sorted out.--padraig 14:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Padraig, so the article on Anstruther Baronets was there when you made the move, and could have been checked at the time: it was linked from the article you moved. I'm not accusing you of acting in bad faith, I'm just pointing out that a mistake was made which could have been avoided.

You moved an article which was correctly named, even on the strictest interpretation of the guidelines, because you'd missed one of the places you could have looked. It's an oversight, it's a mistake, but illustrates my concern here: that when removing titles, very careful checks need to be made to avoid breaking links.

AS I have stated repeatedly, my only concern here is that editors do not systematically make changes which will break links. That requires no change in guidelines. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The Anstruther Baronets article has been edited alot since I moved any of those articles and I am not sure without checking back on my own edits which one I moved at that time, so I would need to check that first, but as I recall at the time the I checked the category for these baronets articles and they weren't listed, nor did they show in a search on WP. But that is a different issue to this are you now prepared to lift this block and take this to ANI.--padraig 15:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

BHG the only issue, we are here to discuss, like I have said repeatedly, is weather A) did VK make a threat, and b) if they did, is the block appropriate and proportionate. Your constant raising of problems you have on baronets is not an issue here. --Domer48 15:18, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Padraig: That's my point, you checked, in good faith, and missed the article which has since April listed and linked to all the John Anstruther baronet-MPs. Caution needed; category checks are clearly not enough, as that incident demonstrates. Best to check the on-line external sources too.

As to whether I will lift the block, the answer is no: it has been endorsed here by several other admins, including Vk's mentor Alison. But I will take the matter to ANI within the next hour, to seek a review.

Domer: yes, Vk did indeed make a threat to disrupt. The reason that the other issues keep on popping up is because Vk and one other keeps wikilawyering to claim that his threat was not disruption. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I DID NOT say I was going to disrupte wiki. I have further clarified this on a number of occasions - you are a disgrace to your adminship and a bully.--Vintagekits 15:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

If this now goes to ANI would VKs block prevent him from defending himself against this, if it does then the block should be lifted to allow him to do so.--padraig 15:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly - how can I defend myself or put my side of the story across at ANI if I am block. BHG - you have had a number of admin now tell you that you have acted incorrectly. Lift the block and let ANI sort it out. I have already said I wont move further articles until it is sorted at ANI - so therefore your block is now redundant.--Vintagekits 15:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Vk, I have had a number of admins support the block, and much fewer opposing it.

However, if you are not going to do the moves, there is nothing for ANI to consider, is there?

So I will lift the block, and we can all save time at WP:ANI. However, a block may be reimposed if you resume disruptive editing. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Given the undertaking above, I endorse this unblock. However, I strongly recommend that VK steer clear of the baronetcy articles in the future and would like to see these going into the same category of contentious articles as the previous ones defined above in the original unblock criteria. Failing that, I predict we're all going to be back here again in a few days. - Alison ☺ 18:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The block should not have been imposed in the first, it was a content dispute in which the imposing admin was involved, this is prohibited blocking policy it should have been taken to WP:ANI --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 18:48, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Think back to two weeks ago

Irrespective of the merits or otherwise of this block - even if it was totally unwarranted - calling another editor "a disgrace to your adminship and a bully" and then sending an abusive email to your mentor for taking a position you do not agree with is not consistent with the terms of your recent unblocking. You agreed to demotrate the "utmost level of civility" and agreed that an "admin may ban you from these if they consider you to be disruptive." SirFozzie made it explicitly clear that "this means you're going to have to be on your best behavior no matter what". You told us that, if you were unblocked, you could prove that you could edit without getting into these sorts of conflicts, and if you did, you would remain civil in attempting to resolve it. Just 8 days later we find ourselves in the same position, lashing out at all and sundry (even those that have gone out of their way to heelp you). And again, everyone is to blame but you, despite the fact that the biased admins change and you are the common denominator. Since you have failed to adhere to the most basic conditions of your last chance, is there a reason we shouldn't just replace the indefinite block and be done with it? Rockpocket 19:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually you will see that my mentor supported the unblock. BHG has a history of blocking editors she is in dispute with and it seems I am the latest one.--Vintagekits 19:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I would also be highly interested in your reason for supporting the block in the first place, it was so obviously wrong yet you supported it! Highly unusual.--Vintagekits 19:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

If she supported the unblock, why did you send her, in her words, "abusive emails"? You did the same to me, you may recall. I, too, would be interested in my reasons for supporting the block, since I don't recall doing so. Perhaps you could provide me with a dif? Rockpocket 19:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Because I initially supported the block, though I found the duration excessive. Blocks are meant to stop disruption and VK was clearly being disruptive, IMO. I now support the unblock given his undertaking above - Alison ☺ 19:40, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

How was I being disruptive? Why is no one condemning BHG - is this a case of "all admins together".--Vintagekits 19:42, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

How were you being disruptive? You could answer that question yourself, by answering the questions I asked you repeatedly above. Why are you treating guidelines as if they rigid and immutable, even when your a rigid adherence to a narrow interpetation creates the avoidable ambiguity illustrated in my two examples above? And what are you really trying to achieve here? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually I would say that you were being far more disruptive than I - I was following wiki guide - I never said the were set in stone but I bet if they suited you then you wold use them as if they were - I was simply following the guides - you were avoiding them and abusing your admin powers. The was not on - just because someone disagrees with you does not give you the right to, firstly accuse them of things they havent done and then block them. If you cant see that you were more disruptive than I then I dispear.--Vintagekits 19:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You still haven't answered the question, and I'm not going to ask again. But it's revealing that you are so determined to duck it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

What exactly is the question - I am not ducking anything, but have ducked your responsibility as an admin today with your behaviour. I will answer any question you have as long as you answer this - do you think you should have blocked me when you were the centre of the dispute?--Vintagekits 20:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

On balance, yes. Close call, plenty of reservations from the outset, but yes. But no more answers from me unless you answer my simple questions to you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Because we are not in the business of "condemning" editors for doing their best to take action to stop what they consider to be disruptive behaviour. There is a due process where you can request comments on BHG's actions - and I will happily offer my thoughts there. Instead of trying to deflect attention on to her, perhaps you could address the point here: why should you remain unblocked when you clearly have demonstrated you couldn't even last 10 days without resorting to gross incivility that led to the indef block in the first place? Rockpocket 19:51, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You seem more than happy to condemn me despite I the fact I have done nothing yet I have been subjected to this today.--Vintagekits 19:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

... apart from sending abusive emails to your mentor and accusing others of be a bully. Ignoring it isn't going to help, Vk. You were unblocked on the condition this sort of behaviour ceased completely. You, yourself, advocated a zero tolerance policy towards it. No-one else has been name-calling here, and no-one else has been sending abusive emails. How many more last chances do you expect to receive? Rockpocket 20:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

VK, it's time to move on here. Either initiate a formal complaint against BHG or start article editing or something, because this constant sniping and lashing out at anyone who's within range isn't helping your case one whit - Alison ☺ 20:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I am pretty dimayed with the stance that some admin have taken here - I have taken such an amount today, its really pissed me off. BHG blocked me on a whim just so she could stamp her power and none of ye and willing to come out and say that that was wrong. --Vintagekits 20:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty dismayed with your behaviour today, quite frankly. BHG did not "block you on a whim", either and right now, you're listening to nobody. That I'm mentor does not mean that I'm your supporter. I'm here to be neutral (believe it or not) and right now, I'm suggesting that you either file a complaint re. this issue or move on. Because all you're doing right now is generating a lot of heat. I'm not suggesting the matter be dropped or anything; just that you need to deal and move on with editing, which is why we're all here. Right now, all you're doing is making more enemies - Alison ☺ 20:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You are dismayed!! I was dismayed that you are even defending BHG and castigating me! Did you even look into the issue - I cant believe that you that is your opinion.--Vintagekits 12:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The fact that this whole situation even arose is astonishing. Its disgraceful that an admin with a COI, has blocked a user for correctly renaming articles. Its disgusting that such an abuse of privlege can happen. If anything RHG should be held accountable for abusing the privleges she has as an admin. I won't hold my breath. Derry Boi 21:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

As usual, there is a lot of bluster about how disgraceful an admin's behaviour is, and how something must be done about it. Yet, as usual, no-one is willing to go through the process to deal with it. If you think BHG needs to be held accountable, make your case at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct#Use of administrator privileges. Holding a kangaroo count on Vk's talkpage isn't going to get you very far, Derry Boi. Rockpocket 22:59, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Biographical naming policy

Elizabeth Windsor redirects to Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom. I'm interested on your take on this, Vintagekits. Do you think a common-sense change on our naming policy is indicated for biographical articles on baronets?

Our main policy, after all, is "Generally, article naming should prefer what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature".  W. Frank talk ✉  21:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Citation

Thanks for your help but is it necessary to stalk me? That said, I will do my best to tidy up my references. How I can prove a village is charming & remote I do not know. Maybe you should visit Witham Friary. --MJB 14:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

If you are asking a question like that I really think you need to read WP:OR - as for stalking you I have asked you to read WP:CIVIL, you my also want to read WP:NPA while you are at it. regards--Vintagekits 14:11, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

"Wikipedians define incivility roughly as personally targeted behaviour that causes an atmosphere of greater conflict and stress" It does not upset me, but you have deliberately targetted sites on my userpage to generate conflict. --MJB 14:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

If you think that articles should not be referenced, please tell me why that should be so. Also you now might want ot read WP:OWN if you think that putting a fact tag on an articles is personally targetting you. You have breach a number of policies in the past half hour - I would suggest that you read those policies before editing again because you are digging a whole for yourself. You have been provided with the policies - now please read them. regards--Vintagekits 14:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Bobby Sands

I am just trying to get some balance into the article. Besides, I think it is best that you keep away from these pages altogether or you're going to get yourself thrown off indefinately. Long time no see though! Logoistic 14:33, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Getting some balance is fine, but editorialising and adding WP:OR isnt, if you know what I mean. Its cool if I stay on the talk pages and remain polite, so I'll be adding my 2c. regards--Vintagekits 14:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Should the community waste any more time with Vintagekits?

Although you have done some productive editing on boxing articles, since I and others are now being threatened by e-mail, should the community waste any more time with you, Vintagekits?

If you look at the administrator time involvement (and the time of other productive editors being expended in argumentation) in the sections above and counteracting your minority point of view, which is the lesser evil for our project - escalating edit blocks and subsequent appeals and recriminations for you, Vintagekits, or an indefinite project wide ban?

If this is you being on your "best behaviour" I'd hate to see your worst.

It's clear you have no real genuine interest whatsoever in "Biographical naming policy" since you have not even bothered to answer my neutrally worded query in the relevant titled section.

I'm afraid I don't share the tolerance (or prescience) exhibited by G here: in his amended concrete proposals for your return from an "indefinite ban".

I'd also like you to give a less cryptic response to the "Conflict of Interest" question I raised here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3A%C3%93gra_Shinn_F%C3%A9in&diff=152243318&oldid=152242061  W. Frank talk ✉  17:43, 19 August 2007 UTC

I too have just had a highly abusive email from Vintagekits, my second this weekend. To give others a flavour of what's being written, here are the three emails, in full:

From Vintagekits, 18/08/07:

I hope you are ashamed of yourself today. You are a disgrace to your adminship. I cant believe you are still standing by that block. Surely you must see that it is wrong

From BrownHairedGirl, 19/08/07:

Vintagekits, any admin who disagrees with you gets called a disgrace, even if all they do is to decline to get stuck into another of the conflicts you generate.

Why do you do this? Why do you turn every disagreement into a fight in which you call people names?

I know full well that some members of the baronets project have behaved very badly wrt to Irish articles, but why do you respond by trying to damage the encyclopedia? (If you were actually trying to help, you'd have been able to answer the simple questions I asked you about what you were trying to achieve)

It's all very sad. You managed to haul yourself back from an indefinite block, with the help of a mentor who really truly did want to give you a second chance, and now you have gone back to all the tirades. This is an odd way to behave: you must know where it's all going to end up.

From Vintagekits, 19/08/07:

you are a disgrace, your actions were the lowest of the low - to be honest you will get whats coming to you - its wont be forgotten. Who the hell do you think you are. Three weeks because you didnt like it. All articles will be correctly titled - mark my words - and non notables will be deleted - its not just me that is pissed off with you know - the light has been shone on the farce that is the Baronet project and the articles they produce.. If you had approached this correctly instead of sneakily creating all those pointed disamb pages then something could have been sorted out - but instead of coming on my talk page and asking me why I moved them you came on and used my past against me and also made all sorts of unfounded accusation about me.

You have made a lot more enemies out of this than I have and its permanently blotted your copy - mines already blotted. All I had was the usual Scottish lackies come along and support you - if anything their appearence proved I was right (and also John's laughable switch in his position once he smelt that a block was on the cards. You've shown your hand now and your cards have been marked.

You are a disgrace. Enjoy your dessert.

Is this compatible with his unblock conditions? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

That's mild. My e-mails featured graphical threats of violence and arson. W. Frank talk ✉  18:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

You are living in a fantasy world - please forward that email to an admin - I have never dfone that.--Vintagekits 22:04, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

BHG considering your own behaviour in this issue I see nothing wrong with VKs email to you, you shouldn't have issued a block in the first place, and place the matter with ANI for a decision, you failed to do that as you knew there was nothing wrong with VK moving those articles under the guidelines on naming. I think that you and W. Frank should now leave VK alone, especially W. Frank who is spamming WP article talk pages to accuse anyone that disagrees with him of being part of a team, his post above is just another stage in that harassment from him.--padraig 18:11, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

BHG, your supposed to be an Admin, are you trying to provoke an argument. There is nothing in those emails that was not said on the talk page. You had to lift an unjustifiable block, and this appears just like sour grapes. Vintagekits just ignore these comments. The block was lifted because it was wrong. You have been vindicated by the block been lifted. Delete all these comments, as there purpose is to provoke a response. --Domer48 18:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Domer, the block was lifted because Vk withdrew his threat. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:22, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• The answer to this heading has to be no, he continually throws all chances back in our faces. --Counter-revolutionary 18:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocked

VK I have indefinitely blocked your account for making clear threats regarding another editor's home address. It's was one of those "I know where you live" moments and you did it twice today. I cannot state exactly who you are referring to or where they live as only myself and User:Fred Bauder know this, but it was unequivocal as to what you meant. Admins can email me on this one - you may not, as this relates to privacy and security of an individual. If you want to use the {{unblock}} template, you may or you may email unblock-en-l@lists.wikimedia.org.

I can't believe you just did that. I really can't. It's truly over, VK - Alison ☺ 18:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

You have been indefinitely blocked from editing in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for repeated abuse of editing privileges. If you believe this block is unjustified you may contest this block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below. Alison ☺ 18:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

What the hell are you talking about??? I'm baffled!--Vintagekits 22:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I endorse that for the mean-spirited and nasty statements in the emails reproduced above and elsewhere recently. This was your last chance and I'm afraid you have blown it. --John 18:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

How cute!--Quick Reference 12:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Even if Vk was entirely justified in all his objections to the actions of other editors and admins, threats against another editor's home address are surely an absolute and irrevocable no-no per Wikipedia:Harassment. No-one should have any reason to be concerned about their physical safety as a result of their work on wikipedia, and Alison was quite right to block Vintagekits indefinitely. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz! "threats against another editor's home address" - what the hell are you talking about?--Quick Reference 12:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

As a disinterested party, who stumbled upon this, and has read all the comments relating to the last 2 blocks before this permanent one (tedious at times!), I fully support the permanent ban on VintageKits. This user was given more than enough 'last' chances and he blew every single one. I hope the Admins have the courage of their convictions and that the ban is indeed a permanent one, and that this horrible person is not given yet another last chance. Snappy56 20:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm probably going to ask for oversight on the two diffs concerned, but I'll keep a local copy of them here. They're still up at the moment - Alison ☺ 19:48, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It was over as soon as Vk started sending abusive email again, as far as I am concerned. He make similar personal threats by email against me when I last blocked him, but since he claimed he was so drunk he was no aware of their contents, I didn't make an issue of it at the time. Its now clear that his MO is to use threats of violence to attempt to intimidate other editors. Whether they are credible or not, I don't know. But his use of paramilitary rhetoric is sufficiently common for the threats to have genuine impact. This is entirely unacceptable behaviour. I endorse this block and suggest we all move on now. If anyone (and on past evidence there will be a few) feels Vk is the victim of an admin conspiracy, then I suggest the either open a RfC to sample the opinion of the community, or else go to ArbCom. However, I firmly believe any outside the poisonous atmosphere Vk moved in will be amazed his behaviour was tolerated this long. Rockpocket 22:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank goodness. I didn't object to the unblock in the first place primarily because I thought, naively, that he would stick to boxing-related articles. Biofoundationsoflanguage 07:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

"If anyone (and on past evidence there will be a few) feels Vk is the victim of an admin conspiracy...I firmly believe any outside the poisonous atmosphere Vk moved in." Rockpocket care to explaine who, and what you are going on about? --Domer48 12:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• I think it is about time one of the aggrieved parties here decided that this mess is best sorted by the arbcom. It seems to me that most of those commenting here are too involved. BHG and co obviously feel they have been wronged and misunderstood and VK obviously feels he has been victimised and cornered. It seems strange to me that BHG has not felt the need to call in some more "professional help" before the problem reached the level it is at now. Now that things have reached this flashpoint level someone more detached and uninvolved needs to come in and sort the mess out. Giano 13:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

He is not being victimised, but you are correct in that he has continually been given special treatment. I hope that ends now, this block is long-overdue. --Counter-revolutionary 13:40, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I think CR that some of your comments could be inflaming the situation. After all we all make our mistakes and errors, don't we? I merely say that it would be a good idea if an admin or an arb more detatched from the situation were to evaluate it. Giano 13:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course we all make errors, but when they are done continually and threaten "violence and arson" I feel something must be done. --Counter-revolutionary 13:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• The perhaps the corcumstances leading to these "threats" (I have not seen them) need to be investigated - by someone a little more detatched. Giano 13:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I only encountered VK yesterday and found him aggressive. That said, an indefinite block seems unfair. He is unpleasant but also clearly industrious and through. Can we consider a short suspension? --MJB 14:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

It's been tried. Look at his block log. --John 14:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

This should be taken to admins not involved in this dispute.--padraig 14:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Other Wikipedia account names used by User:Vintagekits

(1) Is there an automatic procedure to block other Wikipedia account names used by User:Vintagekits?

(2) Is there an automatic procedure of analysing the IP's historically used by User:Vintagekits to edit in order to pre-emptively prevent the creation of new account(s) by him - or is this latest block only another temporary remedy?

(3) Does User:Vintagekits still have "full permission to remove, without replying, any comments" he doesn't like on this page?
 W. Frank talk ✉  14:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• There's always CheckUser, though I don't think this is neccessary here as I don't see any immediate evidence of sockery here - Alison ☺ 14:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Vk's known socks have already been indef blocked (see Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Vintagekits). I think meatpuppetry is a possibility though, since he has done that in the past, and threatened it a few times since (see Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Vintagekits) Rockpocket 18:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom

For the record, VK made two clear and unequivocal references to the home address of another Wikipedian and it was done solely to intimidate that person. I am in absolutely no doubt about this. Any other admin can email me for details.

I have no qualms whatsoever in this whole mess going before the Arbitration Committee at this stage, in fact I look forward to it and will be glad to provide as much evidence as I have to ArbCom. There is no "admin conspiracy" here, at least not on my part, and I'd certainly like to see that cleared up. If a "neutral" admin (whatever that means) wishes to get involved, that may work instead. - Alison ☺ 14:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

No one for one second is claiming an admin conspiracy, although I see you are only offering "your evidence" to other admins. What perhaps need to be independently assessed is did VK jump to these actions or was he pushed. If threats of this nature have been made by him in earnest then some form of sanction needs to be taken against him. However, it should also be assessed to see if there are any mitigating factors, is everyone else concerned whiter than white. I have been quietly watching the "adventures of VK" for sometime and I don't believe he is all bad, at times he is misguided and a little single minded but often the root of his arguments do carry some weight. Others here I too have been watching and at times their actions and comments have in my view been questionable - so several things here need to be looked at. I also think you and BHG should not have made these lengthy and severe blocks yourself but called in someone less involved. At times VKs page has seemed more like a kangaroo court and lynch mob combined - and that cannot be the right course of action. So I suggest the blocking admins now unblock him pending a request for an arbcom case to allow VK a more open and fair hearing. If after hearing all facts and opinions the arbcom feel a perma-ban is required then so be it. Giano 15:16, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, I've got no axe to grind with VK, and I agree with much of what you've said. There are *most definitely* elements of this that the arbcom should look into. But...I'm afraid I don't agree that VK should be unblocked. If these latest allegations (off-wiki threats etc.) are true (I am taking it on good faith that they are, but it would be useful to see more of the actual evidence) then that is just totally unacceptable. There cannot be any toleration of threats of violence or threats to kill. This is an encyclopaedia, not a battleground. Badgerpatrol 15:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Giano, I wish you'd stop using scare quotes like that here. Are you in doubt as to any "evidence"? The reason I'm not plastering it about the place is that it "outs" personal information on an editor; one who already feels threatened by what's happened. I'm not going to excaberate the situation by posting it here for all to see but I will gladly provide it to any member of the ArbCom. Can you see the rationale for that here? Far as I'm concerned there are no "mitigating factors" in what happened here and actions like his are never justifiable nor excusable coming from anyone. I have long been an advocate for neutrality and balance when it comes to VK, already weighing in heavily on his last indefblock. But this - this is too much and I am disappointed that you are making insinuations of imbalance here. Nobody doubts that VK can be a "fine editor" he has shown that in the past and that's not what's at issue here.

I 100% stand by my block here and refuse to lift it at this point. It's not in my nature to be like this - ask any other admin - but I'm doing it here, and with good reason. VK can quite readily provide evidence to ArbCom from his current position if required, and policy states this quite clearly. - Alison ☺ 15:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

To my mind the issue revolves not around was he pushed but when he was in the last chance saloon, how did he behave. He continued to be didactic, mean-spirited, unpleasant and provocative.

I think VK should be indefiitely blocked for being disruptive, malicious, spiteful and vindictive, for failure to WP:AGF, for threatening to use wikirules outwith common sense, for adding inappropriate fact tags, and because he has never shown willingness to take responsibility for his actions, and for being didactic. I have seen no evidence of messages threatening editors at their home addresses. Too much time has been wasted on him. I trust the decisions made at today’s date.- Kittybrewster (talk) 15:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, the kangaroo prosecutor has arrived. Completely disinterested, of course. Bishonen | talk 15:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC).

I've sent an email request to a member of ArbCom to allow evidence to be submitted to the committee - Alison ☺ 15:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I was going to suggest that the Arbitration Committee's attention be drawn to this ongoing situation. If a case is posted on-wiki, I (or if I am away another Arbitration Committee Clerk) will copy any response that Vintagekits may post on this page. Evidence unsuited for presentation on-wiki may be e-mailed to any active arbitrator or clerk for forwarding to the Arbitration Committee's mailing list. Newyorkbrad 15:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I've just sent a message to User:Mackensen on this - Alison ☺ 16:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Alison, please do not accuse me of using scare quotes when I am merely trying to obtain a fair hearing for VK. I suggest that blocks by BHG and yourself were performed without sufficient consultation and thought. The fact that we now have Kittybrewster jumping up and down with glee merely confirm my earlier suspicions about goading and provocation. I have not noticed VK blanking his page in a fit of pique when unwelcome information is posted which is the case with both Kittybrewster and Counter revolution. The more I look at this case there more questions there seem to be to be answered. It is appalling that only now are you considering the arbcom. Giano 15:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

On a point of information: Vintagekits had full permission to remove any comments he did not like, and used that permission relatively sparingly and judiciously. Here are just 3 examples you may have missed: [21], [22], [23]. It is perhaps ironic that the last example I give is of a comment removed by Vintagekits (an undisclosed IP contribution) that also suggested that an arbcom was the appropriate venue for adjudicating a lifetime ban for Vintagekits.  W. Frank talk ✉  16:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• You are right I had missed those diffs - but they just further confirm my view that this will prove to be 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. VKs biggest enemy is himself that is obvious, the next question is who are his next biggest enemies. My view here is (I think this is what the English say:) "what is sauce for the goose is gravy for the gander" using obscenities and threats is not acceptable, no one disagrees on that, but pushing a person to such a point that they see no other option is also unaceptable. It needs to be investigated to see if that scenario has happened. Giano 16:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Giano, you used scare quotes - they're up there for all to see. I'm sure your intentions are honourable but you still used them. I'm unimpressed with Kittybrewster doing the dance of victory also - it's uncalled for. It's high time this went to arbitration - Alison ☺ 16:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Where exactly are the "scare quotes" - I'm begining to wonder if you are not seeing too many threats. Undoubtedly VK has behaved badly the question is how badly and why. I have only been an observer here but I can clearly see some others who too should be examining their consciences Giano 16:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, after BrownHairedGirl applied the 3-week block, but before it escalated to indefinite, I posted a rough outline for mediation to her talk page [24]. I think this would be a sounder solution than an ArbCom case because, as she observed, an ArbCom case would involve compiling endless diffs of who did what and probably end with lengthy blocks for editors on both sides. There is, indeed, a lot to be answered for on both sides. However, many of the participants seem to have been decent and well-behaved editors before getting embroiled in the conflict, and I think it would be more productive to redeem than to block them. Indeed, this was my hope for Vintagekits as well — when editing in areas like the history of Ireland or boxing, his perspective has driven him to improve, expand, and source articles, an essentially constructive endeavor, albeit colored by a partisan viewpoint. It was when he became embroiled in articles about the baronetage and nobility, where he was largely attempting to remove or condense information he had a poor grasp of, that his actions became disruptive. I think the interests of the encyclopedia would be better served by setting some intermediary body between the parties, so that they no longer feel the need to push every point to the utmost of their advantage, than by a general collection of scalps. However, I'd be interested in the opinions of others on the feasibility and scope of such an effort. Choess 16:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• You are quite correct and I agree. The problem is in my experience some of those who edit the baronetcy pages (or whatever they are called) can be just as blinkered and single minded as VK, the only difference between some of them and VK is that they tend to hunt as a pack. Here is the root of VK's problems - he feels cornered and isoalated so lashes out. The charges against him now are very serious indeed. I'm not sure anything but an arb case can resolve it, they need all to have their say. The jubilation demonstrated by Kittybrewster above is repulsive to see. Perhaps now others cabn see just what pressure VK has been under. Giano 16:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I set down my reasons for thinking an indefinite block is justified. And I am perfectly certain that noone has been provoking or goading him into the actions he has taken. Also that he operated within a "pack" which actually did him a disservice by encouraging him to think he was behaving appropriately. He would probably still be unbanned if his original indefinite block had been replaced with a ban on editing any pages (including talk) which were not related to boxing. His edits there were entirely uncontroversial. At the moment I think he is best helped by being encouraged to stand well back. - Kittybrewster (talk) 17:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• Giano, I'm sorry, but I don't believe Vintagekits has been isolated. In both the moving of baronets and in recent disputes over their naming, he's had the consistent support of Padraig, and during the AfD phase (wherein, as I recall, you fell out with Kittybrewster over his defense of his nn articles), he was generally seconded by OneNightinHackney, who has since left over, I think, a different Ireland-related dispute. Perhaps we differ a bit in perspective because I've been familiar with Kittybrewster's baronet-related editing before that point. What happened in the area of Northern Ireland, I do not know, but my recollection is that it took about a month of hammering by Vintagekits and others on Arbuthnot and baronet-related AfDs before I really started to see Kittybrewster's behavior decline. That's no excuse for what's been done since on the pro/Scots side; on the other hand, the fact that an editing dispute was occurring over Northern Ireland doesn't excuse the anti/Irish side from extending it to a general attack on Kittybrewster's opus, even if they were able to justify some of it in policy. (Indeed, the cleanup of excess Arbuthnot articles was later handled effectively by third parties.) Just as we've discussed above the impropriety of administrators blocking while involved in content disputes, I think Vintagekits' decision to involve himself with unrelated parts of Kittybrewster's work (and in a remarkably litigious manner, cross-examining all participants in the AfDs) was improper, and that much of the tension presently surrounding him can be traced to this extension of whatever was going on in articles on Northern Ireland. Now, maybe we won't be able to untangle these particular perspectives without arbitration. I would rather try to pry the sides apart — both seem to be fighting so hard because they fear that the others will get away with something if they don't, so what sureties can we provide that their concerns will be heard and acted on if they back down? But if people really want to sort out the whole history of it at ArbCom, so be it, although I think it will be a lot of editors' funerals. Choess 17:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that all of the e-mails in question be forwarded to one or more arbitrators. I also suggest that copies be provided to Vintagekits himself with the inquiry whether he in fact was the author of each of them, as above he appears to be possibly denying that he wrote some of them. Newyorkbrad 17:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Concrete proposals drafted by a competent attorney were largely ignored W. Frank talk ✉  17:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Giano I have to say I admire your nerve. But coming from someone who “I firmly believe” not “outside the poisonous atmosphere Vk moved in.", will not count for much. All I can offer is my thoughts, because the backlash you are going to experience is more than even you are ready for. I must say, your opinions were like a bolt of lighting, and certainly woke me up. I have to say, that was some entrance. --Domer48 17:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• I think we can start off with an appology for that remark - I have never heard of you. I do not mix in any poisonous atmospheres. If these are the threats and comments which VK has been subject too, I am begining to understand where he was coming from. Giano 18:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand Giano. Domer is referring to himself with that comment, not you. Rockpocket 18:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• No wonder the Irish are always misunderstood if they will persist in speaking in double negatives. Whatever, any back lash will be as water off a duck's back to me - I care not one jot for people's opinion. I have no interest in climbing wikipedia's slippery pole of promotion. Or in writing about my own POV or relations. I merely write pages and air my views on talk pages when they are required and this is one of them. If there is any justice if VK goes down there are quite a few who should go with him. Giano 18:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

So when are we going to see this going to Arbcom??--Vintagekits 19:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The Bigger Picture

I think people are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees here. Its all fine and well to accuse others of inciting Vk - and that certainly has happened on occasions - but Vk has spent a fair proportion of his time inciting those same people. He isn't some innocent editor caught up in a situation, he is among the principle actors that has created this dire state of affairs in the first place. Focusing on any particular single incident in isolation is missing the point. It is the weight of Vks ongoing disruption that has led to an indef block. Putting aside his history of sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry and his nine or ten blocks already this year, just last month I blocked Vk for 31 hours for a number of attacks, culminating in this edit (which is typical of his attitude towards other editors). The result? Attacks, threats, paramilitary rhetoric etc, etc, etc. So I indef blocked and immediately asked for an independent review at ANI. The consensus, even among Vk's mentors, was to maintain the indef block. In the meantime, the abuse continued by email, along the same lines, but with the added threat of personal violence against me and some hints that he indended to get revenge off wiki etc.

• whats the fuckin craic now ya secret dob bassa chunt? blockin me me for fuck all = ypur as much of a total wank as that orange bassa pick cumt as that orange prick cunt organge prick porgange nassa as John - ya lick arse traitor bassa traitor bassa wanker traitor bassa traitor two faced drumpellier chunt

• yer a wanker! yer a lick arse hun luvin chunt and a wanker - if you ewver stepped foot inside a CP I'd break yer nose inta 40 places ya fuckin fanyny

• UP YER ARSE YA WANKERS !! YOU WONT BE FORGOTTIN - YOU AND YER GEEK LIFE ARE ABOUT TO GET ASHOICK -WAIT 5 DAYS AND IT WILL START - YA TRAITOR HUN LOVIMG CHUNT

After much campaigning on his behalf by supporters, Vk was unblocked, given a very last chance, and agreed to a set of conditions aimed at avoiding conflict. These included avoiding articles that were a source of prior conflict. However, the agreement was not to form a precise list articles that he could and could not edit, because the onus was on him to avoid conflict, or if he found himself in it, to behave in an acceptable manner. The other condition was maintaining the utmost level of civility, or else the block would be re-instated. Vk waited barely a day before getting stuck into baronetcy articles (which have been a huge source of conflict in the past). Then, just 8 days later he makes personal threats to an editor that wasn't even directly involved in the "controversy" around BHG's block (in addition to sending abusive emails to a mentor of his).

So, while I also don't think the crowing about Vk's block is at all becoming behaviour, neither do I think there is any independent editor who would have any problem with Vk's indef block. The reason I say this is because each time he had been indef blocked in the past, the consensus has always been to support it. It is only the intense lobbying by a group of supporters that has given him so many chances. How many more chances to we propose giving an editor who has demonstrated time and again that even the most basic levels of civililty are beyond him? Does anyone really think unblocking will lead to anything but this same behaviour again?

That all said, if someone wishes to bring this to ArbCom, I am perfectly happy to co-operate and provide all the evidence of Vk's violations of policy in my possession. I just think we have wasted enough time on this, and I can't see ArbCom taking anything other than a dim view when its all laid out in front of them. Alternatively, an "neutral admin" (who, on past experience, is immedately labelled as non-neutral as soon as they disagree with one lobby's position) is welcome to review it. However, they should be willing and able to review a years worth of ongoing behaviour, rather than an isolated incident. Rockpocket 17:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I have to support Rockpocket. As someone who has tried to work with Vk for the past year, I lost faith in his ability to edit according to our norms a while ago. His mixture of provocative POV-pushing and abusive and threatening behaviour is not compatible with our working practices. He has had enough last chances now. He has certainly made good additions to articles but that is far outweighed by the drain of others' energy and the poisoning of the atmosphere his involvement here brings about. I challenge anyone reading the history of Vintagekits' interactions with others to come up with a solution other than an indefinite block for him. We have all tried very hard to be flexible, and it's a great shame, but enough is enough. --John 18:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I sure this will all come out in the ArbCom, and everyone will get to talk about the poison and invective that is around. Or is this contrabution, suggesting we do not need ArbCom? --Domer48 18:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you asking me? I don't believe we need ArbCom to rule on Vk's indef block. Irrespective of the behaviour of others, I don't see what possible justification there is for Vk's. Though, regarding his assertion below, that he is innocent of making the comments that Alison blocked him for. Due to the sensitive nature of the information, It would be helpful if an arbitar look over this and confirm (or not) Alison's take on the matter. If the arbiter found otherwise, then I may reconsider, though I see no reason to disbelieve Alison on this.

I would not be adverse to contributing to an ArbCom on the wider issue. However, this dispute is so wide ranging that it would be a huge undertaking. In addition it would, I think, create a bit of a shitstorm for a number of editors. However, I keep hearing editors saying "take it to ArbCom" yet no-one is willing to do just that. Is anyone actually going to act this time? Rockpocket 18:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see all this go to arbcom. If I am indef blocked then so be it - as long as the law is laid down fairly and squarely for all instead of it just being me on the firing line.--Vintagekits 18:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Duplication

Note that your talk page for some reason has duplication of topics: Topic 67 duplicates Topic 1, etc. Best wishes. Edison 18:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

My side of the story (for what its worth)

• Lets make this clear since my return I have not threatened anyone. W.Frank's assertion that I threatened to burn his house down and attack him are false, but there seems to be some who are only too happy to believe him. Have I acted poorly in the past? - too right I have, very poor - the worst I have behaved was the night I came in pissed at 3am and had a pop at Rocketpocket and threw the toys out of the pram. However, after the terms of my return were agreed I was happy to return and I had a different take on my editing - I was polite, helpful, tried to engage with and compromise with editors who I have butted heads with before and even created an article about a Baronet!!!!. All I wanted to do was get on with editing, and I was getting on fine with that. However, it all went to pot when I dared to cross BHG. I was acting well within wiki rules when I moved a number (about 10 I'd say) of over disambiguated - this issue is an old one and the Baronet project have a policy of over disambiguating the title of their articles in an attempt to include their titles along with their name - an admin confirmed the position on Kittybrewster page. Anyway BHG blocked me for three weeks for sauying that all articles on wiki should be correctly titled. This block was endorsed by my so called mentor - I do not mean ot be rude by saying so called but it is a fact that Alison has never made any attempt to ever mentor me, unlike Sir Fozzie (oh I wish you were around) - the block was wrong, very wrong - BHG had a content dispute with me and blocked me for following wiki policy so I emailed Alison asking if she was going to do something about it - I got no reply so I sent another email using some "industrial language" - I did not threaten her like some are making out I just point out that I was really pissed off at her lack of support for me when I was obviously in the right and BHG was very wrong to block me when she was in a dispute with me - I also within minutes sent her two more emails apologising for the language I used (the point behind the email still stood but I was sorry for the language I used). As for me emails to BHG yesterday - I see nothing wrong with them - there is no threats there either, I do say she will get her just desserts but that is referring to the RfC that is being produced off wiki which shows her bias and abuse of her admin powers. Now lets get to the crux of the issue - good old W.Frank - an interesting editor - I have had many people email me to say that he is a sockpuppet, I have no proof of that but I do have my suspicions about him. Lets get this clear - I never threatened him, I never said I would come to his house, I never said that I would burn his house down, I never said I would attack him - either explicitly or implicitly. If he has that email where I say I am going to down his house down then someone please make him forward it to me and a neutral admin. If I have said anything like that then I will volunterily leave wiki for good and never return (no cheering please!) if he cannot provide this then that is a serious lie to make about someone and I hope that this block will then be lifted and appropriate action taken against W.Frank.

All I have ever wanted was to make wiki a better place and to improve the articles I am interested in - but I am never allowed to get on with it without harassment for a very small minority of editors and admins.--Vintagekits 18:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't recall anyone (least of all, me) mentioning that it was W. Frank who you threatened yesterday, which ultimately got you blocked. Please elaborate. You know what you said & all your diffs are still available to everyone - Alison ☺ 18:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, an ArbCom representative has replied and I'm currently drafting a message detailing the evidence that I have here - Alison ☺ 18:37, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Are we all going to be able to see this or is this a secret discussion between you and the arbcom? Giano 19:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

W.Frank said that I threatened arson and attacks - I never did this. Thank you for your hours and hours of mentoring and assitance.--Vintagekits 18:42, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

That's nothing to do with what happened yesterday, as well you know. I have no idea as to the contents of W.Frank's inbox. Now please answer the question - Alison ☺ 18:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Well he has said I was going to burn his gaff - I thought that that is why you blocked me. What exactly is the question you are asking?--Vintagekits 18:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

"That's mild. My e-mails featured graphical threats of violence and arson. W. Frank talk ✉ 18:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)" Is this true, is this the evidence! If VK did not do any of this, I think questions need to be asked! --Domer48 18:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly I thought that it was that quote that Alison blocked me for!--Vintagekits 18:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• Are you saying VK you do not know why you have been blocked? Giano 18:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I thought I did but obviously I was wrong!--Vintagekits 19:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Well then someone is lying - who? Giano 19:03, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I get this crap all the time, VK gets blocked for a dubious threat, and I get threatened with referenced information will be deleted, and having a pop at me and gloating at VK being blocked, and no one bats an eyelid. [25]. Accusations left right and centre by W Frank about the “Team” and not a word. ArbCom is the only answer in my opinion? If VK is shown to have done this, well they will not mind me saying …. And the horse you rode in on, but all the facts should be presented. --Domer48 19:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

(ec)Yep, if the events of the last few days have achieved anything it is that this case needs to go to arbcom, and that isnt just VK but the whole Irish/British current dispute. Perhaps VK could then be unblocked on the basis that he only edits the arbcom case pending a decision (like DPetersen), SqueakBox 19:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC) (copying from above)

I suggest that all of the e-mails in question (as referred to by Alison) be forwarded to one or more arbitrators. I also suggest that copies be provided to Vintagekits himself with the inquiry whether he in fact was the author of each of them, as above he appears to be possibly denying that he wrote some of them. Newyorkbrad 19:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

This block has nothing to do with email, nothing to do with "threats of arson" or whatever. I know nothing of that. This relates to something else. And no, Giano, I won't be sharing it with the public for reasons of privacy and security. I've already made that clear. Unless the person in question wishes to reveal their home address here, which I doubt, there's not much I can do other than provide ArbCom with the evidence in confidence - Alison ☺ 19:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

"This block has nothing to do with email, nothing to do with "threats of arson" or whatever" You have based your whole case on this. If this is not it - I would like to know what! I have been editing here for years, anyone who has an email that can shed light on this matter can forward them to me, and I will then give a public opinion without betraying any confidences. I just want to see a level playing field. Giano 19:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not have permission to do that, and you have no right to know. I'm sorry, but I just can't make that call - Alison ☺ 19:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll pmail you something non-outy in a minute here - Alison ☺ 19:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Please don't worry - others will. Giano 19:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Hang on here a minute, I thought this was about W Franks post, now this has nothing to do with it. Before I tell a fellow editor (VK) to “go … themselves,” for doing something bang out of order, I want to know what for. This is starting to go a little down hill, so I will pull up short, and simply say this dose not seem altogether right. --Domer48 19:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, we are under not obligation to provide sensitive information to any editor that requests it simply so they can satisfy their own curiosity. No one is asking you to tell Vk anything, Domer, so there is no reason you have to justify that by knowing what is going on. If this was done on wiki, and the suggestion is that it was, then the information is there in the logs (unless, of course, they have already been deleted). I don't know exactly whats going on here either (though I have my suspicions about certain edits yesterday), but Alison does, and we have no reason to distrust her. She has requested oversight from an ArbCom member, so I suggest we all wait to see what he or she has to say. Rockpocket 19:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

They're not deleted, as it happens. However, the quandary is that if I reveal any more, it puts an editor at risk as I will have revealed details of their home address so I can't do that. I guess this will be my final word on the matter. I'm taking this, plus the evidence to ArbCom. I will not be unblocking VK at this time. If he needs to parttake in the arb case, he can do so via email or under something like the Miskin Arbitration case did. - Alison ☺ 20:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The impression given was that VK had threatened another editor by e-mail, we are now being told that was not the case, so how are these threats supposed to have been made, that lead to an indef block.--padraig 20:10, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

If you read Alison's justification you will note she mentions, a number of times, that the diffs of Vk's comments are/were still available. I don't know why people are thinking they were made by email (perhaps you are getting confused with Frank's comments about the emails he has received from Vk previously). Rockpocket 20:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

This is all now far too cryptic. I am beginning to smell something, something very unplesant and more than a little dead! I think we need some answers here. How about you W.Frank? Anything you would like to tell us? Giano 20:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Please stop with the insinuation of impropriety, Giano. There is nothing unusual about an admin dealing with sensitive information in this manner. Unless you think ArbCom are in on the conspiracy, your concerns should be addressed fully. In the meantime, a little good faith wouldn't go amiss. If you are that desperate to know, you can trawl through Vk's edits over the last few days. As Alison says, the diffs are still there and, at least one stands out to me as being extremely unusual. Rockpocket 21:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

"ArbCom are in on the conspiracy" - Oh no, they are not in on anything! I know all I need to know, and I'm begining to think it "aint" pleasant. So the Arbcom needs to know sooner rather than later. Giano 21:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

This whole thing is turing into a farce. We were told VK was blocked for making personal threats against another editor via email, but now we're told that they were never made, so the reasons for VK's block seem to have been changed...AFTER HE WAS BLOCKED. We're also being told to look at his diffs...what exactly has he done wrong in his diffs? The goal posts have been shifted and my confidence in admins as neutral objective editors has all but disappeared. Derry Boi 21:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

"We were told VK was blocked for making personal threats against another editor via email" - you were never told that by the blocking admin. Not once, so nothing's been changed. In fact, I've restated it a number of times now - Alison ☺ 21:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

This is becoming more like an Agatha Christie by the moment. We have the simple Irish peasant boy (sorry VK no offense) is he the criminal? or is it the wicked baronet, or one of his aristocratic side kicks from Toad Hall? Who wrote the poson pen? and who put the body in the library, and was the body dead when it went there or did it write the poison pen. Miss Marple needs to arrive PDQ. Giano 21:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Did you actually read any of the thread about Vk being blocked, Derry Boi, before wading in with your opinion? Just after issuing the block, Alison said, "I'm probably going to ask for oversight on the two diffs concerned, but I'll keep a local copy of them here. They're still up at the moment". How exactly does that equate with you being told "VK was blocked for making personal threats against another editor via email"? My confidence that certain individuals are interested in anything other than offering partisan support along ideological lines has all but disappeared. Rockpocket 21:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah "Rockpocket of the Yard" and where were you when the shot was fired? Giano 22:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I was chillin' at the Texas School Book Depository, where were you? Look, there is a great deal of confusion here, as people are getting confused over why Vk was blocked this time, as opposed to why he was blocked last time, not to mention all the other abusive emails that didn't lead to blocks. Notwithstanding the fact that this should tell you something about the persuasiveness of Vk's poor behaviour, all its doing is generating accusations of conspiracies that simply don't exist. Alison has already said she is passing this all over to ArbCom, so why doesn't everyone just take a step back and wait for their response, rather than make ill-founded allegations based on misunderstandings. Rockpocket 22:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Have no fear I'm so chilled I could be in the morgue, what though are the "ill-founded allegations" you think I am making? Giano 22:18, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking about the allegation from a number of editors that "we" were originally told Vk was blocked for comments made by email. If you didn't make any such allegations, I wasn't referring to you. Rockpocket 22:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems that no-one, including VK, is quite sure why he was blocked, but an awful lot are celebrating the event. So who has been manipulated to where? - and why? I shall continue to hunt for the body, because without one we have no crime. Giano 22:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Please watch yourself

Vintage, irrelevent edits like one are out just to cause trouble. I genuinely don't want to see you thrown off Wiki, so for your own sake, stay clear of Irish Republican related articles completely. Try getting into something else - a recent look down your edits shows that you are still pushing this agenda. Glad to see that you're stalking me again though! Logoistic 19:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Was VK not supposed to contribute to talk pages? As to pushing an agenda, I think one should look at their own edits, as VK suggests. --Domer48 12:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Now, if Vintagekits had said the above, "Please watch yourself", he would have got an indefinate block! Same rules should apply to all editors, regardless. -Thepiper 14:14, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Yep fair point Thepiper. Derry Boi 19:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Thepiper, in a 2-tier system like the one we have that isnt realistic. When did you ever hear of an admin being indefinitely blocked? SqueakBox 20:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Vintagekits, why are you blocked?

Why are you blocked, I can't understand the page! Can someone please point to the transgressions. Thepiper 23:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Since you (and others) seem to have missed it, see #Blocked, "VK I have indefinitely blocked your account for making clear threats regarding another editor's home address. It's was one of those "I know where you live" moments and you did it twice today." - Alison. VK's supporters seem to be making a concerted effort to muddy the waters but let's all sit back and relax and let ArbCom deal with it. Snappy56 12:30, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I have read through the discussion, and this block must be just as criptic as the last one, because I can not find the threats? Snappy56 who are VK's supporters? Hopefully ArbCom "deal with it," including comments like yours. Now Snappy56, where is the "clear threats regarding another editor's home address." W Frank, made some claims also, are they related? Talk about "muddy the waters." --Domer48 12:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I repeat, Alison wrote on 19 August, 2007: "VK I have indefinitely blocked your account for making clear threats regarding another editor's home address". She later wrote she would not divulge this evidence to anyone other than ArbCom because to do so would reveal personal information on an editor. Of W Frank, I know nought, ask him, ask Alison, except she ain't talkin', only to ArbCom, which we ain't. The debate since then has gone off on several divergent tangents. As I said before, let's wait for the judgement of our benevolent overlords, the mighty ArbCom! ;-) Snappy56 19:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I would love to see these "clear threats regarding another editor's home address" - nothing like innocent until proven guilty eh. Nothing to do with disagreeing with a couple of biased admins though yeah!--Vintagekits 20:07, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Shut UP! Giano 20:16, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes I am too stupid to shut up when I should really do so. I'm just a thick Paddy wit no schooling or edumacation. I'll be quiet until this abrcom.--Vintagekits 20:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

"I'm just a thick Paddy wit no schooling or edumacation" Yep, and you need to learn how to spell a certain word beginning with "C" or better still stop using it. It is not an acceptable word in print, or outside of a stag party or a rugby club changing room. VK! You do have your moments, and this is not one of them. Your boxing pages are great, that is how I first saw you. I too have written a few pages on the subject but my sort of boxing is far more rough. You are a good and valuable editor but for now just put a sock in it, we all understand that you have been tormented and pushed to a very far point but now is the time for you to realise that too.

You are in for a ban, there is no disputing or avoiding it. The only question in doubt is for how long? However, there are many mitigating factors. Others, in their way, have been as bad as you, if less openly vociferous. In my book they are worse - they have been cunning and devious - with your mouth the size of a stable door no one can accuse you of that. Just realise that at the moment every time you open your mouth and swallow your foot, they are all laughing gleefully. So for the time being shut up. Giano 20:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Very wise words Giano lets hope your good advice is taken.BigDunc 20:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, I have given up hope of having any chance of being allowed to stay. I came back and edited fine but was hounded out. No matter whats happens I am out of here.--Vintagekits 21:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Irish articles assessments

Assuming you get back online!

It seems that the assessment of Irish articles has fallen off the radar but recently Flowerpotman, Sarah777 and I have been doing a little work on this as well as actually classifying articles (actually Sarah has done the most work). Anyway, you are listed as a member of the WikiProject hence this post.

• The first thing that needs doing is to work on the WikiProject template. Actually there are two templates both of which get recorded by the assessment statistics bot that collects the ratings and creates the listings in the category Category:Ireland articles by quality. The two project templates are {{Irelandproj}} listed on the main project page and {{WikiProject Ireland}} listed on the assessment page—the first allows both quality and importance rating as well as nesting but no reviewer comments, while the second allows quality rating and comments but the importance does not seem to work and comments are not included. This needs to be fixed, so we use one that works fully—can you help?

• The next thing is to decide if we just let editors assess as they wish or to create some criteria or guidelines for rating the quality and importance of the Irish articles. Personally I am in favour of some guidelines—some will be easy to decide while others are a little more complex. What do you think?

• Some projects make lists of articles for assessment while other go after groups of articles by category. What should we do? A mixture of both by using a "To do list"?

• As of the last assessment statistics bot run on Sunday, August 20, only 1462 articles have been tagged, of which 1156 have been assessed for quality but 660 of these have no importance value.

• Besides these 1462 there must be hundreds more untagged articles that should be tagged when we get the template issue mentioned above fixed.

We are not bad in our assessments but some projects have all their articles assessed while others are lacking more than we are. We can really use a few active editors to bring assessments to the fore. Please reply on the assessment talk page as to what you can do. Please help out. ww2censor 17:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Vintage arbcom case proposal

I am happy to bring the case to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration but I need to know who are the other involved parties and other relevant information. I started and perhaps others could help me before we take it to arbcom, I just dont have the knowledge but I do think a formal request for arbitration is appropriate at this time given VK remains blocked. As VK can only edit here this is a good place to start and he may well wish to change the ===[[User:Vintagekits]]=== to include other users, eg User:Vintagekits and User:xxxxx, thjere is plenty of precedent for the case to be about more than one editor. Hope this si helpful, if not just ignore it, SqueakBox 20:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Vintagekits

Initiated by User:SqueakBox at ~~~~~

Involved parties

• Vintagekits (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• BrownHairedGirl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Giano (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Astrotrain (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Alison (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Rockpocket (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Counter-revolutionary (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• SirFozzie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Wknight94 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Kittybrewster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Padraig (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• GiollaUidir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by User:SqueakBox

I am not directly involved in the dispute but as nobody has so far brought this case to arbcom I am going to be bold. VK was recently indefinitely blocked in a case that has brought up many strong feelings from editors who believe this block is both wrong and partial given that this case involves various parties ~~~~

On a point of interst, how long do these things usually take? Derry Boi 20:49, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a month or so on average, though this one could be monstrous. I was planning to speak to Alison about an ArbCom proposal this afternoon, one would need to be very clear on exactly what ArbCom are being asked to rule on (and remember that, even at ArbCom, sensitive information will not be publically revealed). Rockpocket 20:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

If the arbcom case is too broad, it'll drag on for months, and that's in nobody's interest, least of all VK's. I suspect given the list above, quite a number of other editors/admins will also end up being the subject of remedies. Not entirely a bad thing, mind.

I'm fowarding on confidential info to a member of ArbCom today & should have some answers back soon - Alison ☺ 21:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

• There is more than that that I want in Arbcom - what about Alison for her abject failure to mentor. Also W.Frank can come along for the ride.--Vintagekits 21:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

• That biased admin John, also.--Vintagekits 21:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to draft whatever case you please, Vk, and I will happily post it to Arbcom for you. However, don't expect others to do your dirty work for you. Rockpocket 21:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Peremptory tone is uncalled-for. Thepiper 21:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)