Talk:Russo-Georgian War

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Typo

Good morning. It may seem not overall important, but there is a typo in the word "Lithuania" at the bottom of section no. 5.5. Please someone fix it. 89.161.15.229 (talk) 17:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Timezones

The article says "At 00:53 on August 8, Georgian forces began shelling the city" but does not give a timezone. We need to say the timezone apart from the time. Are the times in the article in UTC or local time? NerdyNSK (talk) 02:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It's local, there is MSD timezone (UTC+4). I'll try to fix it now. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 07:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It needed in correction or to check up. Acording to Wiki - summer time in Georgia is UTC+5--Niggle (talk) 13:43, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Independent source for russian air stikes?

Georgia conflict: Roar of war as jets fill the air - The source says only about unknown jets flying near Gori, and nothing more. However, in article, it "proves" Gori and Kaleri bombing. --Eraser (talk) 03:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

"Striped area shows the territory controlled by Georgia prior to the conflict."

Is this where Georgians live? And/or pro-Georgian Ossetians? Anyone knows? - Pieter_v (talk) 03:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Demographics have changed significantly since Soviet censuses. I wouldn't trust the Georgian government censuses with regard to the number of Ossetians living in that territory nor would I trust the Ossetian Governments censuses either. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but my point is that it should be more explicitly told that, even though the south ossetian republic was called out, a great part within its borders is inhabited and governed by Georgians. - Pieter_v (talk) 03:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, what do you mean by "the south ossetian republic was called out"? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I mean the declaration of independence. - Pieter_v (talk) 03:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

If you are referring to the map on the page, I think it is pretty clear that the striped area had been under control of the Georgian government from Tbilisi since the ceasefire in the 90s, and this is where they staged their military manoeuvres from in order to capture South Ossetian positions. Yesterday the Georgian government had claimed to have captured up to 70% of the territory (including both the striped sections of the map and non-striped areas on the map), however this figure has inevitably been reduced since the intervention of Russian troops. Without sources I'm pretty sure that Ossetians and Georgians were fairly mixed before the tensions of the early nineties, much like Bosnia, and therefore labelling villages as "Georgian" or "Ossetian" could be disingenuous to the situation as I am confident there are refugees from both spectrums.

Actually even before the 1992-1993 conflict most villages were either mostly Georgian or mostly Ossetian. This map shows Georgian, Ossetian and mixed villages in SO according to the last census carried out there (1989). Alæxis_¿question? 05:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

German response

If you feel that Germany's response to the hostilities should be added to the article:

Foreign Minister Steinmeier has stated being "appalled by the escalation of violence" and demanded that "all combat has to be ceased immediately" on august 8th. He urged the international community to prevent "tensions, violence and looming war" from "spreading troughout the Caucasus".

Federal Foreign Office, 08/08/2008 - No official translation provided.

--78.54.129.44 (talk) 03:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I added it in. Esn (talk) 03:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgian night attack on residental houses in Tskhinval (August, 7-8 night)

There are the lake of information about period from 00:53 till 04:45 in the Article.

"At 00:53 on August 8, Georgian forces began shelling the city, which allegedly included the route along which refugees were being moved.[27] As the day progressed, Russian media reported that at least fifteen civilians had been killed in Tskhinvali.[20] At 04:45, Georgian State Minister for Reintegration, Temuri Yakobashvili announced that Tskhinvali was nearly surrounded, and that Georgia controlled two-thirds of South Ossetia's territory.[28] "

Comments of the civilians on the BBC "Have to say" page:

"Georgia says: "I offer you an immediate ceasefire and the immediate beginning of talks"?!! Don't trust them!!! Army use heavy guns and MLRS "GRAD" against civilians: they are attacking Tskhinval right now. Words to you at the morning, swords to us at the night. Mikhail, Tskhinval, South Ossetia"

Confirmation BBC video: night MLRS Georgian fire against Tskhinval [1]

--Niggle (talk) 03:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality tag?

What exactly is the issue? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I actually have been assuming that someone added it as a way of saying "look, there's high motivation for bias for some individuals, so take everything with a grain of salt." To me the neutrality tag seems technically wrong but practically useful. I did not add it, though. Christiangoth (talk) 03:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

UN Security Council "reaction"

It would be better to use original information from UN page:

The first meeting (Russian request) http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2008/sc9417.doc.htm

The second one (Georgian request) http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2008/sc9418.doc.htm

--Niggle (talk) 04:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Misleading background section

I do not think we should describe "ethnicity" of people who live in South Ossetia. However if we do, we should indicate the percentage of "Ossetian", "Georgian", "Russians", and so on. Right now, one might think that all people who live there are Ossetians. An if we are talking about citizenship, not about ethnicity, all of them are either Russian citizens or Georgia citizens (the South Ossetia itself is not an internationally recognized state). Another important question is this: what percentage of people who live there hold Russian passports, and are they also citizens of Georgia? Biophys (talk) 04:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. That is potentially misleading. Ostap 04:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by "potentially misleadin"? This is important because Ossetians themselves seek integrity with Ossetians in Russian region of North Ossetia. Does not it clearly show that this is the important factor, and therefore should be mentioned? Historically, ethnical factor is the main reason of wars in Caucasus, the same about this region, especially if you take into consideration the prehistory of the conflict (before Soviet Union Ossetia was not a part of Georgia, and after the USSR, there was a conflict of 1991-1992) --Victor V V (talk) 07:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The information on ethnicity comes from BBC and the article currently makes it explicit that one third of the inhabitants of South Ossetia are Georgians and that about half of the inhabitants of South Ossetia have a Russian passport (BBC didn't say whether the Russian passport is in addition to another passport). NerdyNSK (talk) 04:43, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know one can't be a citizen of both Russia and Georgia at the same time. Alæxis_¿question? 04:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Not "about half", but more than half of inhabitants of South Ossetia have a Russian passport (according to Russian sources - about 90%, and this figure is more accurate, by the way, because BBC does not give percentage. 90% is more than half). --Victor V V (talk) 07:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I think this section has been visibly improved since my comment, although it is still too POVish and shallow with regard to reasons of the conflict.Biophys (talk) 13:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Cossacks references considered confusing

Firstly, the references to the Cossacks are confusing. It is not immediately apparent which side they are on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.163.28 (talk) 04:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

For the sake of keeping this talk page organised, I added a header. NerdyNSK (talk) 04:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I've tried to clear that up by saying that they are against Georgia in "reactions" section. Esn (talk) 05:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Picture from previous conflicts

I added a photo from 2004 conflicts showing a Georgian firing at South Ossetians, while in the caption I said that the pic was from 2004. A user removed the photo saying it's not about the 2008 conflict. I added the pic again, this time changing the caption to say explicitly that it is an example from a previous conflict, in addition to the date (2004). I think the photo is relevant, useful, informative, and adds value to the article, and I think it should stay. If we get a similar photo of combat action in 2008 I will be happy to think replacing it, or keeping both, but I think this 2004 is all we have showing actual combat between Georgians and Ossetians. I recommend keeping the photo, and I would like to know what you think. NerdyNSK (talk) 04:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure, as long as its clear it is from a past conflict. Once we get similar pictures from current conflict, we should probably replace it. Ostap 04:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree the first caption I provided only referred to the date without making it more explicit that the photo is about a previous conflict, so I fixed this in the current caption. Just to note, however, that perhaps it would be better for the encyclopedia to edit the caption saying it's an old conflict rather that revert the whole insertion of the photo, but anyway. I agree that a photo from the 2008 conflict is preferable especially if it's of high quality. NerdyNSK (talk) 04:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Some thoughts on suggested additions to the Background section

1. Add that Mikheil Saakashvili came to power in the Rose Revolution with a campaign promise to bring Abkhazia and South Ossetia back under Georgian control.
2. Add that Saakashvili had promised to bring Abkhazia and South Ossetia back under Georgia's control by peaceful means but that Georgia also has that highest increases in per capital military spending
3. Is a staunch US ally and has received military assistance from the US and Turkey and has greatly improved the effectiveness of the Georgian military.
4. Add Kosovo's recognition of independence and the Russian response of official collaboration with South Ossetia and Abkhazia

[Perhaps this would come under a heading of "deep, deep background" (or the "religious dimension"), but the assertion that Georgia (who is an ally of the United States--an iteration of the "king of the South") was attempting to bring these areas under its control; and that Russia (an iteration of the "king of the North") responded to the military moves of Georgia, brings this conflict within the context of the fractal Prophecies of Daniel 11:40. It will not help the situation to ignore that fact or delete this information.]Michael J. Cecil (talk) 09:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll add more thoughts when I think of them. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 05:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

INTERFAX.RU - Convoy of the wounded, coming from South Ossetia, was attacked by Georgian armed forces, as was told to "Interfax" by Igor Konashenkov. "Thanks to the staff of the OSCE mission was agreed to evacuate the wounded. However, the stories of the wounded themselves relayed that when the convoy reached the road leading from South Ossetia, Georgian artillery opened fire on the convoy," - Konashenkov said.

Although evacuation routes do exist, sources report that it is difficult to leave the reagion.

Interfax also reported that villagers are under attack by the Georgian foces, being taunted and then killed after seeing their homes destroyed.

Ossetian led news forum, cominf.org, updated periodically, reported that civilians were being gunned down after fleeing into forests for protection. This supports the claims that Georgia is actively conducting ethnic cleansing of the people.

Also, upon entry into Tskhinvali, Georgian tanks opened fire on civilan homes and buildings to continue the bombardment of the city. Very few buildings remain intact. This was also reported by Interfax, and from victims who were able to send SMS/text messages to families in North Ossetia.

No author or links and highly biased. ... The preceeding should be deleted. 65.68.1.90 (talk) 05:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Links

someone should clean up the links. I cleaned up #8 because there was a ref tag error, but my info doesn't look right. Also the russian links should say (Russian), like so. The first one doesn't, and others may not either. Lihaas (talk) 05:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Why Georgian pecekeepeking forces are deleted from infobox, while the Russian remain?

--Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 05:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I noticed in fact someone changed "12 dead Russian soldiers" to "12 dead Russian Peace Keepers." Are they peace keepers? Were they trying to keep the peace are were the shooting at the Georgians? I donno, it sorta reeks of bias 72.140.80.212 (talk) 05:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know those 12 were killed during the initial stage of the conflict when Georgia started an assault on South Ossetia. Russian forces did not fight back till around August, 8, 12:00, and those 12 were killed much earlier. So I guess they were by all means what you americans call peacekeepers at the moment, just watching from the sidelines and not fighting back. Though to my mind peacekeepers are those who stop others from fighting even if that means entering the fight themselves, so they weren't much of a peacekeeping force doing nothing while the massacre went on. They are now, preventing Georgia from attacking Ossetian citizens. -- 81.195.13.56 (talk) 08:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia says casualties" are peacekeepers.

Anywyay, don't delete fact there were 500 Georgian peacekeers (and they are now engaged in warkeeping as much as the Russian ones, too). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 05:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I also noticed that the Russian positions are being listed under "International Reactions". Shouldn't this be seperated out to a Combatant Section? 65.68.1.90 (talk) 05:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Because Russian army is not attacking Georgia but tries to stop Georgia from bombing Osetia and killing civilians.

Please use four of the little squiggly things at the top left of your keyboard at the end of a note like that.65.68.1.90 (talk) 07:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

They are internationally recognised as peacekeepers since 1992 by Georgia, South Ossetia, the USA, UN, OSCE, CIS. They work as peacekeeper force there under official agreements signed by Georgia, South Ossetia and Russia on behalf of CIS. The US have stated several times that they value the mission that these peacekeepers do in breakaway republics of South Ossetia and Abkhasia. What is there to discuss abou wording??85.202.113.34 (talk) 13:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)Dmitry

Improve background section

It should be more something among the BBC one:

SOUTH OSSETIA TIMELINE

• 1991-92 S Ossetia fights war to break away from newly independent Georgia; Russia enforces truce
• 2004 Mikhail Saakashvili elected Georgian president, promising to recover lost territories
• 2006 S Ossetians vote for independence in unofficial referendum
• April 2008 Russia steps up ties with Abkhazia and South Ossetia
• July 2008 Russia admits flying jets over S Ossetia; Russia and Georgia accuse each other of military build-up
• 7 August 2008 After escalating Georgian-Ossetian clashes, sides agree to ceasefire
• 8 August 2008 Heavy fighting erupts overnight, Georgian forces close on Tskhinvali

More recent stuff before August (incuding the downing of Georgian drones and other incidents, like when Georgians caught are arrested Russians illegally transporting weapons). And yes, the war erupted on August 8 rather than August 1. Clashes are not war. (I think the rest should be mostly moved to Georgian-Osstian conflcit article.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 05:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

As there's sudden interest, let's improve the first war and related articles

1991–1992 South Ossetia War, Georgian-Ossetian conflict, 2008 Georgia-Russia crisis, Georgia–Russia relations

There was also a War in Abkhazia (1992–1993) (and the conflict since, including the War in Abkhazia (1998) and the 2001 Kodori crisis) and the Georgian Civil War in general, too. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 06:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

August 9 events

Russian resumed fierce air-strikes against Georgia. The central part of Gori is almost completely destroyed, with civilian casualties. The Kopitnari Airport near Kutaisi in west Georgia is being shelled right now. A Russian SU-25 hit a residential building in Senaki where the displaced persons from Abkhazia live. During the nighttime battles, Georgians report to have downed 3 Russian jets. The Georgian state minister Temur Iakobashvili said Georgia is waging a patriotic war against Russia. Source: [2]--93.177.151.101 (talk) 06:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

‘Dozens’ Killed Poti, Senaki Bombings – Reports.--93.177.151.101 (talk) 07:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Interfax talks now about more than 1600 killed people. So do German media sources. -- 91.66.143.134 (talk) 08:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Israeli response

As I have said before, Georgia claims that Israel has NOT frozen arms sales. I can't edit a locked article. Here are the links again, and one new one:

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]

Contralya (talk) 06:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

From what I understand there has been confusion about Israel's response. They apparently halted all arms sales that were not for defensive purposes. So it's more of a partial freeze.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 08:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

You should be able to edit the article. It's only semi-protected. Superm401 - Talk 09:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

NATO

Robert Hunter, U.S. ambassador to NATO under President Bill Clinton says that the conflict dooms Georgias chances of joining the alliance[7]. Not sure where to insert it in the article.Hjortefot (talk) 07:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, he's not official. He is ex-ambassador to NATO... --Alexander Widefield (talk) 09:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I added this to the Georgia and NATO article yesterday, though this is a newer article.--Patrick Ѻ 15:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Battle of Tskhinvali

Please help to expand the article on this battle. Add info on fighting to that page.

Good background article

I see a lot of editors are making an issue of background and so I figured this article which is already full of more recent events would help with some of these concerns. Information from that article should help expand the background section here. At the same time the article could use some revamping as well.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 08:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

OK. Now someone make a second paragraph on the events of the 2008 Georgia-Russia crisis events before August. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

If someone in the region has photos, upload them here?

If you don't have any pics, please don't get killed while trying to get some.

This also applies to the other conlicts, btw (including the previous Georgian ones). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian war planes

Russian military officials admitted to the loss of two jets, one SU-25 and one TU-22. Georgians claim thay have actually downed 10. The source is the Russian website lenta.ru: http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/09/planes/. Please add the info to the article. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 08:43, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I've added, thanks for link. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 09:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't spam by list every Russian unimportant unit in the infobox

If they were important they would have articles (like the armies have theirs). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Russian articles are underdeveloped on WP, so in order to fight systematic bias leave the redlinks, as Russian units are just as notable as US units, and redlinks will encourage development. Any moved, please place back as part of the needs for WP:RUSSIA. --Россавиа ^Диалог 09:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you think every single Georgian unit (equally unimportant) should be crammed there, too? Please stop being silly. Also, I don't know why we have a list of different Cossack factions there. Do they hate each other or something? Are they from different countries/breakway regions? No? So, they're all "Russian/Cossack volunteers" an may be explained in the article, not cram the infobox. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

there is no need for uncivility, articles will be created, and as mentioned, it is important for WP:RUSSIA to have these links (albeit redlinks) for future article development. Do not assume that a unit is not notable due to a redlink. As you can see these are not unnotable units, all it requires is for someone to be bold and create an article on this WP for those units. Do not remove again without proper consensus. --Россавиа ^Диалог 09:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Every Georgian unit is important, but we simply don't know them. If you know - please be bold and add them. But do not remove Russian units. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 09:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

When articles are created and you get RELIABLE SOURCES these units are there, do an "Order of battle" section, and don't spam the box. See the Iraq War or Korean War or Gulf War or Bosnian War or whatever. If one had to list every unit, it would be crazy. Actually, even Russian Armies involved are borderline, but I can accpet THIS. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

You think your opinion is the best one? It's YOUR opinion and you are alone in it. WP is not moderated site, and you are not a moderator. Please stop doing this. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 09:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Can someone please revert what is amounting to vandalism, as there is no consensus to remove it from the infobox, and this information is required, and no-one owns this articles. Gather consensus to remove it first, then if consensus is reached to remove it, remove it. This is how things are done on WP. --Россавиа ^Диалог 09:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

And are you think that Russian Ministry of Defense official site is unreliable about what army forces are used in South Ossetia?

Why you think that 76th Airborne Division of VDV consisting of more than 6000 (!) men is unimportant? --Alexander Widefield (talk) 09:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, COahc-fd, please note that you are in violation of WP:3RR with your reverts which obviously has no consensus. To avoid a report on this, I would suggest that you undo your last revert yourself, and then come back here to discuss and get consensus. --Россавиа ^Диалог 09:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

He did undo again, please report that, Russavia. I don't know where to do it. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 10:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It can be reported here if you are able to do this, just going to do some major wikilinking on the article which is needed. --Россавиа ^Диалог 10:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

fufff... I did it. diff.--Alexander Widefield (talk) 10:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the units should be listed, if and only if a source is given for their involvement. However, it doesn't matter if they're redlinks. Superm401 - Talk 09:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll add them in several minutes. Thanks that you stated that, i've forgot. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 10:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Please do not replace them for North Caucasus Military District. For example, 76th Airborne Division is based in Pskov, not in North Caucasus. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 10:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you slow or something? Read the title of this section until you understand. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Why did you offend me? What I did? --Alexander Widefield (talk) 10:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I suggest Captain Obvious that you stop being uncivil to other users. --Россавиа ^Диалог 10:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Consensus is strongly in favor of having this information in the top infobox. Please stop removing it now. Superm401 - Talk 11:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

He does not stop! Hey, admins, are you there? --Alexander Widefield (talk) 10:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

News links direct from Georgia and Russia in the English language

New to contributing to Wikipedia & talk pages. Hi from a newby! The following links may be useful for you [originally posted here]. Not sure if they (or some of them) belong in the "External Links" section. You can use the following information the best way you think, since I am inexperienced with the ins and outs of Wikipedia. Hope they're useful for you.

Here are some English language web links of news sources direct from Georgia and Russia that I have found (to be working):

GEORGIA:

Georgian Public Broadcasting

AdjaraTV

Medianews

Radio-Imedi

Civil.ge daily news online

Server connection error from the following: [ http://www.news.ge/ ], [ http://www.media.ge/ ], [ http://www.interpressnews.ge/ ], [ http://internews.ge/ ], [ http://news.boom.ge/ ], [ http://www.rustavi2.com.ge/ ], [ http://www.liberty.ge/ ], [ http://forum.ge/ ]

RUSSIA:

ITAR-TASS news agency

Russia Today

Military News Agency by Interfax

Varvara's Voices from Russia blog with photos and translated news from Interfax

RIA Novosti news agency

Pravda news

Speckontheweb (talk) 09:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I am concerned that external news links in English from the Georgian side are being removed and only displaying news links to Russian news media. This makes me mad - not because of my position on the war - but this is extremely biased to remove alternative new sources! The Messenger is certainly a mainstream newspaper, what reason can be given to remove it? Dobbs (talk) 16:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Martial law declared in Georgia

Saakashvili Declares Martial Law: "South Ossetia was just a pretext used by Russia to launch a large scale military aggression against Georgia." --93.177.151.101 (talk) 10:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Civil.Ge is down :( I've added it with link to Russian source, can't find in English. If somebody can find that please add. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 10:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, was that site hacked as well? BalkanFever 11:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there are simply too much internet users who want to read :) --Alexander Widefield (talk) 11:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Abkhazian plans

Since Abkhazia is an autonomous republic in Georgia, they don't really have a border. My wording in the section isn't the greatest [8], but any rewording should not represent as two different countries. BalkanFever 10:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, de facto Abkhazia is independent, so it is a de facto border. On the other hand as you rightly point out, Abkhazia's independence, and thus the border, is not internationally recognised. Anything that mentions this should keep the middle ground between these two aspects of the situation. sephia karta 11:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Economic consequenses

"The war is also widely expected to slow down the economy of Georgia", which needs a citation? Are you kidding? Does anyone really think this war will boost Georgian economy? ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 11:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Without source this is a original research. WP is the secondary, not primary source of facts. It's obvious but however we must provide the source for it. Law is the law. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 11:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Not really law but you are right. Anyway, the economic effects are so obvious that we don't need to write anything about it. The sentence should be removed, since it is both unsourced and not very informative. BalkanFever 11:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I removed it. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 11:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Many times a war boosts a nation's economy through war economy and increase in factory output and demand for machinery. This probably does not apply in Georgia's case, though. I read somewhere on a news site why and how Georgian economy is likely to slow down, but I wasn't able to find the URL at the moment :( NerdyNSK (talk) 11:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It's pretty simple. If the war is on your soil, it hurts your economy. If it's abroad, it may help, depending how much the war costs. But I agree it shouldn't be mentioned here. Superm401 - Talk 11:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Standard & Poor's and Fitch lowered Georgia's debt ratings - http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/fitch-lowers-georgias-debt-ratings/story.aspx?guid=%7BFA377F13-52F9-4AA2-A3C2-A57170314903%7D&dist=msr_2 and the same from Fox Business - http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/fitch-lowers-georgias-debt-ratings-b/ 89.19.169.5 (talk) 12:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Someone added content relating to the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline. Very well spotted. This addition upgrades the article to a broader context. ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 13:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Spreads to Abkhazia

10h47 UTC, from Le Monde[[9]]

"According to Georgian public television, Russian aviation bombarded Saturday a part of separatist territory Abkhazia controlled by the Georgians."

Hjortefot (talk) 11:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't read French, sorry :( I don't understand what's there, so I cannot add this to article. If you read French well do it yourself please :-) --Alexander Widefield (talk) 11:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I found Russian source. Let's add this. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 11:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok good. I am not autoconfirmed so I cannot edit the article. Else this[10] works well too.Hjortefot (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure... Can we use links to Google Translate here? I don't know :( --Alexander Widefield (talk) 11:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I can confirm that that is what the link says. It would be best to include both the original link and a machine translation in the citation. But simply the original link is fine. BalkanFever 11:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's another link (to the Echo of Moscow radio). Alæxis_¿question? 11:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Link to the original, but be right about what it says! :) Also, English sources are preferred if of equal quality. Superm401 - Talk 11:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but English sources usually give one-sided view (guess which). Therefore use google translate if you can not read Russian, but we should not be selective in terms of language now.

As for Abkhazia, it starts its own offensive:

The article says that it was Abkhazian, not Russian aviation, that bombarded the eastern part of Kodorsky ravine on Saturday (http://lenta.ru/news/2008/08/09/bagapsh/) --Victor V V (talk) 13:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgian president declares state of war with Russia over South Ossetia

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/09/georgia.ossetia/index.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.80.150.95 (talk) 11:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, this is not declaration of war, this is declaration of martial law on the territory of Georgia.

BTW, this link on CNN site is bad, it links to news portal about Ossetian conflict, but not to news entries themselves. So please do not insert it as the source. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 11:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The references of this article shows rampant use of links to news portals. I see no problem in using this source for references. ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 11:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Wait, what do you mean by "portal"? The issue here is that the CNN page keeps changing drastically. It isn't a fixed story. Superm401 - Talk 11:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

That was not the argument of Alexander Widefield. How do you know for sure the other referenced articles does not change content? Can you read Russian? ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 12:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe that was his argument. There is no problem with CNN per se, once they start making new pages for each story (which will happen when it's less fresh). I can't read Russian, but I can see that there are several different stories on the Russian sites. Superm401 - Talk 12:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it was his argument, but then he needs to be more specific in his use of words. ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 12:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia declares 'state of war' as Russian bombs fall

"Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili declared a "state of war" on Saturday as his troops battled it out with Russian forces over the breakaway province of South Ossetia."

http://news.smh.com.au/world/georgia-declares-state-of-war-as-russian-bombs-fall-20080809-3soz.html

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hmeB7WbpRoVnV4IbRCC6nrgbilRQ

"The Georgian Parliament has approved a declaration for a 'state of war' for 15 days after 1,500 civilians were killed in fighting between Russia and the former Soviet satellite." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1042816/Georgia-declares-15-day-state-war-1-500-civilians-left-dead-Russia-conflict.html

TBILISI, Aug 9 (Reuters) - Georgia's parliament approved a state of war across the ex-Soviet country on Saturday following days of fighting against separatists in its South Ossetia region and their Russian allies.

"The state of war will be valid for 15 days," stated the decree by President Mikheil Saakashvili that parliament approved. (Reporting by James Kilner; Editing by Jon Boyle)

http://www.reuters.com/article/europeCrisis/idUSL9310316

Actually this is martial law. I wrote this in the article. --Alexander Widefield (talk) 12:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you need to quote what the references says and not what you think they say. ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 12:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

link for citations needed

Подразделения 76-й Псковской дивизии направлены в Цхинвали - http://www.rian.ru/defense_safety/20080809/150223158.html

On the subject of the arrival of parts of the Pskov Airborne Division in South Ossetia. Requested for the "citations needed part" at the "At 10:30 UTC, Russian paratroopers land in South Ossetia[citation needed]. President Saakashvili calls for ceasefire in his speech.".

Aedile (talk) 11:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you ;) --Alexander Widefield (talk) 11:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Images

I am in support of image-rich Wikipedia articles. Imagery helps the reader navigate the article both visually and textually while scrolling (by placing relevant images next to relevant paragraphs in the text). Just like we have a textual discourse we could have a graphical discourse as well. Images and their captions help the reader focus on important parts of the article, and they also attract the reader's attention and make our encyclopedia look better and more professional. NerdyNSK (talk) 11:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

As long as they don't violate Wikipedia's image policies (and those policies are very, very strict) and they don't clutter the page (i.e. compromising text layout and headers too much) then images are welcomed. BalkanFever 11:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I support images too, but they have to be relevant and free. We have quite a lot of tangentially relevant images already (previous wars, training exercises, etc.), so I'm cautious about adding more. Of course, a free image of the actual conflict would be enormously appreciated. Superm401 - Talk 11:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

BBC has recently published several images from the war zone. They show the residential quarters in Gori bombed by the Russians.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7551139.stm --93.177.151.101 (talk) 11:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't think these are free. Superm401 - Talk 11:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Can someone replace a picture of Bulgarian Su-25 with picture of Georgian one? [11] Kos93 2:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I did, thank you for pointing out that we had a picture of a Georgian Su-25! NerdyNSK (talk) 12:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

"Opposing forces"

This table makes it look as if all Ossetians as well as ethnic Georgians inside South Ossetia are fighting Georgians. As far as I know, the ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia want to remain a part of Georgia. - Pieter_v (talk) 11:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Unrecognized states and non-state entities

"Hundreds of Kubans are predicted to volunteer when the Kuban Kossack Army becomes formally involved." Perhaps we should avoid presumptions and predictions? And how can a paramilitary unit become "formally" involved? ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 12:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

We can say "[Whichever news source] predicts that....." or "states that it expects....." or something to that effect. Or alternatively we could remove the predictions while leaving the confirmed. BalkanFever 12:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Remove the predictions all together. We can summerize them when the war is over. ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 12:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

If you haven't done so already, feel free to. BalkanFever 12:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, thank you very much. I just wanted to be sure and discuss it before someone starts reverting my edits. ;o) ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 12:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Independant Media Articles

Would it not be preferable to refrain from quoting Russian news agencies and papers as they are not independant of government control and as such are an unreliable source of information that are likely to be facilitating Russian governmental propoganda? (86.8.241.65 (talk) 12:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC))

Russian media is independent in fact and reliable. Please prove your opinion before saying in the air. Actually, Russian media is more quickly than any other (I don't know Georgian language, may be they too). --Alexander Widefield (talk) 12:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

When in doubt we can add 'according to Russian sources' or 'according to Georgian sources'... Alæxis_¿question? 12:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. "Russian/Georgian media reports/reported that..." is also good. BalkanFever 12:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

We know Russian news is biased, but so is all other news. Neutral point of view means we take this into account, saying for instance, "A spokesman for the Russian forces in South Ossetia said that Georgian shells directly hit barracks in Tskhinvali, killing 12 Russian soldiers and wounding 30." Yes, the spokesman may be lying, but the reader can judge that possibility knowing the source. When there's contradictory info (e.g. the planes), we report both (or all) sides. Superm401 - Talk 12:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Archive this page

- Someone who knows how to, please do. - Pieter_v (talk) 12:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It's quite hard because many sections have recent (and quite probably relevant) responses, and only the old, finished discussions should be archived. Also, the amount of edit conflicts one would face in trying to clear half the page...........*shudder*BalkanFever 12:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I archived discussions up to 8 August 2008, but unfortunately 99% of the discussion is from 9 August... However we can move more to the /Archive 1 as the time passes. NerdyNSK (talk) 12:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Can you please reinsert the removed content, I have set the page up for automatic archiving, and it will result in what you have just archived being missed. --Россавиа ^Диалог 12:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

What's the time window before a section gets archived?BalkanFever 12:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I have reinserted the archived content and cleared the archive. Hopefully all is well now. BalkanFever 12:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Kodori Valley/Upper Abkhazia

According to the Echo of Moscow ([12]) Sergey Shamba said that Abkhazian armed forces began to 'push' Georgian forces from the upper Kodori gorge. Alæxis_¿question? 12:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The Associated Press is also reporting that "separatist forces in Georgia's breakaway province of Abkhazia launched air and artillery strikes to drive Georgian troops from their bridgehead in the region" [[13]] This "bridgehead" is the Kodori Gorge. Should this conflict be a separate article? I assume more information is forthcoming.

Georgian aircraft casualties as of early 9 August

I note that the article lists as casualties two Russian aircraft; you may wish to note that the Georgian government (per various news sources) confirms that three Georgian aircraft have been destroyed. See : [14] (an AP story?), [15]. 172.129.243.190 (talk) 12:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for providing sources for this — I think we mention it in the article, but I can add it to the casualties table at the top. — Beobach972 (talk) 12:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

What are the reasons?

Does anybody have slightest idea of why Saakashvili has decided to start all this nonsense? When he ordered to flatten down the towns populated by Russian citizens he knew very well what the consequences will be. It was mentioned many times that there never was hatred between Ossetians and Georgians, like it exists between Abkhazians and Georgians; but now it's in the past -- after Georgians murdered and injured thousands of Ossetians, now they have every right to consider Georgians as their deadly enemies. The chances that Ossetia will be returned to Georgia were average before 2004, were about zero a month ago, and became negative now. Georgia itself is likely to be occupied soon. Where this passionate desire to drive the situation from bad to worst comes from? — Hellerick (talk) 12:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

This is not a forum. If you do not plan to discuss on how to improve the article, this is not the place for you. BalkanFever 12:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

If ot's not a Forum what are those pages for? Let a man ask. BWC56 (talk) 12:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

He is a megalomanic. Think about it for yourself. Is there any logic Ossetia, Abkhazia will be part of Georgia? Why do Georgians need those lands? To say "we have them"? This megalomaniac is a psycho thats all. BWC56 (talk) 12:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

This page is purely to improve the article about the 2008 South Ossetia War, not to discuss the event and the politics. You guys can do that at your own talk pages. BalkanFever 12:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought that's what those pages are for :-| Sorry. BWC56 (talk) 12:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Automatic archiving

Old discussions older than or up to 8 August have been archived at Talk:2008 South Ossetia War/Archive 1. NerdyNSK (talk) 12:19, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Unexplained major aircraft loss.

Media says Russia admits losing two planes, a Su-25 (~ A-10 Warthog equivalent) and a Tu-22. This latter one is probably a Tu-22M or Tu-26 in NATO notation. This is a very large supersonic swing-wing medium bomber from the 1980s, which the USA considers a strategic bomber asset due to its large payload and aerial refueling capability.

It is suprising the russians lost such a significant asset, that plane is simply too valuable. Did they fly it low altitude and it fell victim to simple autocannon fire from the ground? Did they fly it high and it fell victim to a SAM missile? Did they fail to provide it with jammer variant Su-24 Fencer escort planes for anti-SAM purposes? If yes, that was a major oversight! Russia's strategic air forces are not large enough to lose a Tu-22M on the first day of a silly little conflict like this one in Ossetia. 91.83.24.145 (talk) 12:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia actualy says they lost nothing. BWC56 (talk) 12:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

No they admitted that they lost two jets.

Sources: Georgian, Russian

The Georgian Ministry of Defense revealed the identity of the captured Russian pilot of a downed SU-25. He is Colonel Igor Zinov (Игорь Зинов), born at Moscow in 1951. The dead pilot is the certain Zhavchin. He had anti-Western rhyme with him, wich is reportedly disseminated among among the Russian military personnel. It reads:

Пока у русского солдата

Есть спички, пули, самогон,

Сосите хрен, солдаты НАТО,

Дрожи от страха, Пентагон!

"Until the Russian soldier has matches, bullets, and homebrew,

Suck our shit, soldiers of NATO,

Shiver of fear, the Pentagon."Georgian Inter Press Service.--93.177.151.101 (talk) 13:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

We lost two jets, they will loose Tbilisi. Start counting. BWC56 (talk) 13:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

No, you actually lost 10.

Someone please block such users and remove their comments. I'm trying here to provide sources for further improvment of the article and the guys like BWC56 pollute the talk page with their nationalistic and idiotic remarks. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 13:12, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought you guys are for democracy and free speach, no? In two days we will see who was right, and for now, could you bring links to a bigger sources? Like the Russia One chanel, PTP, i dont know. BWC56 (talk) 13:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Please calm down, both of you. Mind WP:TALK and WP:CIV. BalkanFever 13:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian constitution and use of armed forces

According to constitution only Council of the Federation may authorize use of armed forces outside the territory of Russia (d, article 102, chapter 5 http://www.constitution.ru/en/10003000-06.htm ), but it's currently on a vacation until september 15th (article 41, http://www.council.gov.ru/about/agenda/ch1/item258.html(in russian))... What about russian peacekeepers’ mandate? Does it allow to use additional forces? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.19.169.5 (talk) 13:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

BBC References

If reliable references are needed, try BBC News' coverage. The GEORGIA-RUSSIA CONFLICT box to the right is a quick link to all their related sections. There are also videos and large numbers of images. —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξφ 13:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

A phrase needed to be deleted

In the background, the phrase "Some journalists have suggested that Russia's strategy during the 2008 South Ossetia War may have been to sabotage Georgia's entry into the NATO."

It's a POV. POV's are not needed. And why in the backfround it wasn't mentioned that the head of Georgia when came to power promised to end the de-facto seperation of South Ossetia? This article is to POV driven. BWC56 (talk) 13:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that these NATO comments need to be removed. "Some journalists" are not notable. If we want to discuss causes, we need to wait for explanations by notable people (e.g. historians, state leaders, etc.). Note that this doesn't mean they all have to agree. Superm401 - Talk 13:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I dont mind to have different views here, as long as they all are brought and not by selection. BWC56 (talk) 13:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

POVs that are referenced are certainly needed as this is how we can give equal coverage to both the Western POV and the Russian POV, and maybe synthesise them in order to reach NPOV. If not for anything else, references to journalist articles with POVs is important to document any bias or propaganda by media outlets. NerdyNSK (talk) 13:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not POV to say what a journalist said, giving the reference. It is important as it documents how the West sees the war. If we have to wait until historians pick up the war, nobody will have any interest by then. If you can improve the phrase please do so, and if you can find references for Russia's POV please add them as well. If you are really sure the phrase is injurious for the encyclopedia and you find that there are a sufficient number of other people who agree with you, while there is no significant opposition, then you can try deleting the phrase. I, for one, do not oppose any change to the phrase as long as the reference link is maintained intact so that our readers have a chance to read the analysis. NerdyNSK (talk) 13:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Those POV's are not needed. Other countries leaders don't get the case journalist think they can open their mouth? Wikipedia needs reliable information, POV's dont enter here. BWC56 (talk) 13:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

"Commander" of Abkhazia

The Russian Wikipedia article on this lists Sergei Uasyl-ipa Bagapsh (Russian: Серге́й Васи́льевич Бага́пш, Abkhaz: Сергеи Уасыл-иҧа Багаҧшь) in the "commanders" section of the table, as commander of the Abkhazian forces. Should we list him as well? — Beobach972 (talk) 13:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

As soon as we have references on Abkhazian forces actually in combat in South Ossetia, you know: Who, where, when, what etc. ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 13:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah! Someone has added his name to the article, but you raise a good point. I failed to distinguish between Abkhazians fighting Georgia and Abkhazians in South Ossetia. The conflict seems to have spread beyond South Ossetia, and this article may, in the coming days/weeks, be moved to a geographically larger title, though, and there are reports of Abkhazian involvement. But we can wait for more references; that's not a problem. — Beobach972 (talk) 13:31, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

The title doesn't mean we can't discuss combat outside Ossetia. There is already substantial mention of fighting elsewhere in Georgia. However, it's still rooted in South Ossetia so the title is appropriate. Superm401 - Talk 14:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

airplane's images

Why in this page use the fotos of the trainer type of "Su"-palnes? use better Image:SSCN4908.JPG (bomber type of Su-25) and Image:Su-27 on landing.jpg (fighter type of Su-27). Or, pergaps you can use Image:Su-24 Fencer Right side gear down.jpg and Image:Tu-22M3 Monino.jpg, if these bomber planes are really used in the war. Please, someone change the fotos.--123.224.96.87 (talk) 13:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia and Russian Federation

Can someone explain why the term "Russia" is used and not the term "Russian Federation" when it comes to the referenced news articles? ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 14:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Because according to the Constitution of Russia, Russia and Russian Federation have the same meaning and either can be used officially and/or unofficially. From article 1: Наименования Российская Федерация и Россия равнозначны. --Россавиа ^Диалог 14:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Article 1, paragraph 2 of the Constitution: "The names "Russian Federation" and "Russia" shall be equal."

Basically, "Russia" is the short form for everyday use, whilst "Russian Federation" is more of government use. But both can be used to one heart's content. Russoswiss (talk) 14:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers. I was not aware of this. ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 14:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Number of Georgian Tanks

Ok, I'm a bit confused about this: Russia's Channel 1 claimed that Georgia had 250 tanks. This had been confirmed by other sources. Yet the article gives the tanks as 200 and it initially gave the tank size as 150. Can someone find out exactly how many tanks Georgia has?

Well the information that is now up is based on a report from a Polish news site. Other sources give other figures, and it is difficult to choose which one to choose. Maybe as more information will come in, we'll have a better idea. TSO1D (talk) 14:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

A new kind of war?

According to the article, this is a war between peacekeepers and volonteers assisting the peacekeepers... Hapsala (talk) 15:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

And they are doing a hell of a job. ;o) ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 15:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

90% number

Please stop presenting the "90% of ossetians have a russian passport" as a fact. These are the numbers put forward by Russian and pro-russian sources and need to be indepdently varified before it's presented as fact. And yes "more than half" by the BBC DOES contradict 90%, because 90% equals to "almost all". - Pieter_v (talk) 15:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Talkpage Management

In order for this page to continue to effectively serve the article for which it is intended, I have begun to enforce the tag at the top warning that posts off-topic from improving the article on the South-Ossetian War will be deleted. I am deleting posts but leaving information on when they were made and by whom. I am also organizing posts within talkpoints according to their logical order by grouping responses to the posts to which they respond and by indenting responses that are not indented for the purpose of making their nature clear. I have considered merging functionally identical talkpoints and grouping talkpoints on similar subjects, and will probably do so if there is positive feedback for doing so. I will not do so if there is negative feedback. Christiangoth (talk) 15:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to remove anything that is off-topic, within reason. I wouldn't rearrange other comments though: it's not that hard to follow. And if by "talkpoints" you mean "sections", then please don't merge similar ones. Otherwise the automatic archiving will be compromised, and because most people don't pay enough attention to dates, they could misinterpret completely different comments. BalkanFever 15:18, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

That being said, some things may be off topic, but if the issue has been resolved in the thread, it should be left alone. That way people reading through will have an idea of what not to do, and it won't look confusing with parts edited out. BalkanFever 15:24, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

K. And yeah, I did mean sections. I guess I should probably use the terminology that that little tab at the top uses. Christiangoth (talk) 15:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Turkish Involvment?

I believe Russian news had said that un-marked NATO vehicles are arrviing in Georgia and Turkish naval infantry are mobilised, is there any source on this?

What are your sources? Alæxis_¿question? 15:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Some of my Russian friends say that a Russian news source said so, I'll look for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Attilavolciak07 (talk • contribs) 15:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

[16] I've found the source for this info but it's rather vague and cites unnamed eyewitnesses. So I think we have to wait some time before adding anything about it to the article. Alæxis_¿question? 15:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Can I have the link? I cant find it. I think they have landed. Is there confirmation on that? Attilavolciak07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.126.165.213 (talk) 16:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Logistics

How are Russian troops entering the zone? Are they crossing the mountains? I cant find any road between South Ossetia and Russia. Does South Ossetia has any airport? Dentren | ^Talk 15:25, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Probably the Georgian Military Road which once again plays its importance in caucasian warfare ;) - Pieter_v (talk) 15:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

No! They go by Transkam that connects NO and SO directly. Alæxis_¿question? 15:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Is that the Ossetian Military Road perhaps? - Pieter_v (talk) 15:29, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

This one fell out of use since Transkam was constructed. Alæxis_¿question? 15:33, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there is a tunnel connecting South Ossetia with Russia, or they could have airlifted troops

It's Roki Tunnel. Alæxis_¿question? 15:42, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It is certainly the Roki tunnel - it is the only way: - "Russia has a military capability, if it is indeed moving into South Ossetia, to secure a corridor from Tskhinvali back through the Roki tunnel and to secure Tskhinvali itself," he said, referring to a tunnel that is the only land route connecting South Ossetia to the Russian Federation. Tskhinvali is the main city in South Ossetia." - CHRISTOPHER LANGTON, DEFENCE ANALYST AT INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE FOR STRATEGIC STUDIES AND EXPERT IN CENTRAL ASIA. Taken from http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL8710763 - I do this because having been there, and having a very specific map of the region directly in front of me counts as original research. So here is the cite. Dobbs (talk) 16:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Opposing Forces - Russian aircraft.

I think differentiating that there are 320 Russian Military aircraft "in the region" versus 3,070 total is slightly misleading since aircraft can easily be transferred around a country (even one as large as Russia), as opposed to equipment like tanks which require more logistics to relocate.

Death toll over 2000

The news agency Reuters reported that over 2000 people died, according to Russian sources. [17] -- 91.66.143.134 (talk) 15:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

This should be added in the box. -- DanteRay (talk) 17:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Russian sites blocked

Today all the Russian sites can't be reached here in Tbilisi. It worked in the morning, but now in the evening all ru sites are blocked.
Right now two Russian pilots were interviewed in a hospital. They will be sent back to Russia via Red Cross according to Alaniya TV. Narking (talk) 15:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Presidents of Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Poland condemn Russian imperialism and revisionism. Call for NATO and EU action

[18] Joint statement by them. They said we condemnt Russian imperialism and revisionism. All call for NATO and EU to react. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.16.144.67 (talk) 15:48, 9 August 2008 (UTC) [19] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.222.66.239 (talk) 16:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Article name

article name

Since South Ossetia is NOT a recognized nation, and is indeed officially part of Georgia, shouldn't this article be named Civil War in Georgia? Kingturtle (talk) 16:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Have'nt seen a single source that uses such name. MaxSem^{(Han shot first!)} 16:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• South Ossetia is a country, not independent state, but still a territory with a name. Just like Darfur. --Garret Beaumain (talk) 16:14, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. At this time, the Russian military involvement is quite evident, so there seems to be a Russian-Georgian war.--Darius (talk) 16:17, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

What makes it notable is that the Russian military has rolled in. CNN is currently calling it a "Russian invasion", but I think that it may be too early to go down that road. The title should indicate that the major players in this are the Georgians and Russians. --Elliskev 16:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Folks, the military activities have extended far beyond South Ossetia. Russian jets flew from Armenia and bombed the areas in south Georgia - Marneuli and Bolnisi where the military airfields are located. I saw one Russian SU downed by the Georgian air defense forces near Gori, Georgia. I captured a photo, but lost my camera when escaping shelling. Reports coming from the locals also say that Georgians are in almost complete control of Tskhinvali and the Russian columns heading through Roki Tunnel suffered heavy losses. Russia also announced an air blockade of Georgia. This is a full-scale invasion; Georgian troops are recalled from Iraq and thousands of Georgians are volunteering in the army. You can find a regularly updating news at http://www.civil.ge/ and http://www.interpressnews.ge/index.php?lang_id=ENG (you can use free username and password that appears in the yellow banner). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.177.151.101 (talk) 16:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• That two sources are in .ge zone, right? And the first one is state Georgian source. It is useful to cite them for Georgian side opinion, but keep mind they are written by one of the combatant sides.Garret Beaumain (talk) 16:41, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Both of these websites are run by the international NGOs with their base in Georgia. The Georgian gov't has nothing to do with these sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.177.151.101 (talk) 16:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

• ANALYSIS-Georgia takes gamble with move on rebels - Reuters.Garret Beaumain (talk) 16:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Darfur is not a country. So, "is not country just like Darfur" if you want. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 16:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

"Russia 'invades' Georgia as South Ossetia descends towards war" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2524550/Russia-invades-Georgia-as-South-Ossetia-descends-towards-war.html - Pieter_v (talk) 17:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

"Russians suffered heavy losses". Ha-ha, man, who believe in this bullshit? Russian jets in Armenia - wow, cool, why not in Iraq? And this downed SU - are you sure it wasn't Georgian? :))) --81.91.48.15 (talk) 17:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

There is a Russian base in Gumru, Armenia Baku87 (talk) 10:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

According to Mikhail Saakashvili Russian forces are attacking its civilian population.[20] - Pieter_v (talk) 17:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

And according to George W. Bush Saddam Hussein made a nuclear weapon --81.91.48.15 (talk) 17:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the most lasting legacy of the Bush presidency will be our reputation as bumbling, gullible rubes.

All official Georgian sources are totally POV and clearly anti-Russian --81.91.48.15 (talk) 17:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, same goes for Russian sources concerning Georgia. - Pieter_v (talk) 18:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks like Georgia's gamble to retake South Ossetia by surprise while everyone was watching the Olympics has turned out to be a disaster. It's interesting to see how the Georgian president is furiously backpedaling now. And by the way, Pieter V, why am I not surprised to see you here? Everyone is aware of your blatant Russophobia, but if you're going to contribute to this article at least try to be serious. --71.112.145.102 (talk) 18:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I am? I'm just interested in conflict. It looks like you're the one whose biased. - Pieter_v (talk) 18:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

You are the one who defends Chechen terrorists who kill children and innocent civilians...yes, you are biased. LokiiT (talk) 18:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

No I don't, you on the other hand clearly show how biased yourself by calling chechens "terrorists" and ossetians "peacekeepers". Also I've warned you that personal attacks are not allowed and you can get blocked for them. - Pieter_v (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Calm down, people. Sooner or later we will know the truth. In the meantime, let us write down all the information in the article - and from the pro-Russian and pro-Georgian sources. --Eraser (talk) 18:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

So people who hold schools hostage and kill children for political gain aren't terrorists? You're entitled to your opinion, and so am I. Calling someone biased isn't a personal attack. If you continue with that accusation you'll be blocked yourself.LokiiT (talk) 19:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes those people were terrorists, but they don't represent all Chechens. Only a racist would believe that. Also, fyi, Russians killed many more Children. - Pieter_v (talk) 19:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I've never once said that all Chechens are terrorists. All those who support such terrorist acts are though. And you need to learn the difference between cold blooded murder and unintended collateral damage. LokiiT (talk) 19:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Can we agree that based on the third-party (not Russian or Georgian) sources that this is a conflict between Russia and Georgia? If so, despite South Ossetia being the obvious casus belli, is it reasonable to move this article to something along the lines of 2008 Russia-Georgia conflict or 2008 Russo-Georgian war, regardless of blame? --Elliskev 19:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I have a bit of a different concern with the article name, "War in South Ossetia". From what I read there have been attacks outside South Ossetia. So the article discusses attacks in these border towns like Kareli and Marneuli near Tiblisi, which are not "in South Ossetia". Because of that, I think the name needs to be more location neutral, like "South Ossetia War" or "2008 Georgia-South Ossetia conflict".--Patrick Ѻ 19:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Article name (about the war part)

It's not clear that this is a "war" per se yet. (Georgia's president declined to explicitly say the two countries were at war. [21]) Is there some more neutral name for the article we could pick? I ask because it would be nice to put this in {{In the news}}, but I think the title might be controversial. -- SCZenz (talk) 13:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia has been saying that they have only peaceful intentions from the beginning. (Although, are wars even declared anymore?) Georgia said that they would consider it an act of war if Russia entered. And they have. So it would seem to be "war" by their definition. Esn (talk) 14:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, a number of news organizations have already said that war has broken out. [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] Esn (talk) 14:04, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources are calling this a war which is enough to classify it as one here. History is full of occurances in which neither side bothered to actualy declare war because the fighting had already started. Jon (talk) 17:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

IIRC, were the Gulf Wars ever formally declared, for example? -- megA (talk) 17:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Article Name (Again...)

So there's this comment at the end of this section here pointing out that the war is no longer contained to South Ossetia. I think he makes a very good point, and I agree. I would suggest moving the page to "South Ossetia War (2008)". Any takers? Kingnavland (talk) 22:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Support for South Ossetia War (2008). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

That would be my comment. "South Ossetia War (2008)" is a good choice, because South Ossetia is the subject of the war, not necessarily the location of it. The other suggestions I saw that included Russo-Georgian or some variant could get confusing because of multiple belligerents.--Patrick Ѻ 22:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Support.Biophys (talk) 23:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

What will the article be named if NATO intervenes? JCDenton2052 (talk) 23:16, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know; however, if NATO were to intervene, the story would get picked into wider circulation by lots of mainstream sources, who would settle on a name for the conflict. Doesn't look like anyone's opposed, so I'm going to make the move. Kingnavland (talk) 23:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

If NATO got involved we'd call it World War III. Anyways, thanks for the move. As more of Georgia has been engulfed the article was increasingly misnamed.--Patrick Ѻ 23:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I suggest it be renamed 2008 Georgia-Russia conflict Ijanderson977 (talk) 15:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree to some extent that we should have an article entitled 2008 Russo-Georgian War or something of the sort, but then we would have to split this article into two parts. One part could deal with the actual fighting in South Ossetia between the Georgian Army and the separatists from Aug. 1- Aug. 8; the other part would go into that other article and would be about the Russo-Georgian conflict that began on August 8th and which as others have pointed out has transcended the bounds of S. Ossetia. TSO1D (talk) 15:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• There are more participants than two. And the major fighting is going in South Ossetia. We need not to change anything. A perfect tittle.Garret Beaumain (talk) 16:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Article name

I would like Second South Ossetian War. Like Second Chechen War --TheFEARgod (Ч) 11:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Inevitably, this depends on how far back you count. I can easily claim it should be third:

1. Georgian-Ossetian conflict (1918-1920)
2. 1991–1992 South Ossetia War
3. 2008 South Ossetia War

I'm sure others could argue for 4 or more. 2008 South Ossetia War is undoubtedly correct and unambiguous (let's hope it ends before 2009 though). Superm401 - Talk 11:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I disagree too, because you just invented this name: [27] ;) - Pieter_v (talk) 11:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Could we wait a while before a page move discussion? I think it's fine for the time being. Let's concentrate on the actual article. BalkanFever 12:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd prefer to get rid of the term before Wikipedia spreads it. See Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2008_August_9#Second_Ossetian_War_.E2.86.92_2008_South_Ossetia_War. Superm401 - Talk 12:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Since Georgia now officially declared war on Russia (as far as I know), it is now a Georgia-Russia war, not just a Georgia-Ossetia war, therefore there is a strong case to move to 2008 Georgia-Russia War. NerdyNSK (talk) 12:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Hold your horses. The Russians are peacekeepers, remember? ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 12:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Even if Georgia did officially declare a war with Russia (which is far from clear) that is no reason to change the name now. Only if the theatre of operations expands widely is that rename possible. Superm401 - Talk 12:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia was involved in the previous war to... and? It's involved as part of the Ossetian side, remember? Thats all. BWC56 (talk) 16:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• There are more participants than two. And the major fighting is going in South Ossetia. We need not to change anything. A perfect tittle.Garret Beaumain (talk) 16:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• There are TWO state participants, Georgia and Russia. Georgia has declared war. I would also argue that with military operations being carried out throughout the country (not just S. Ossettia) makes this obvious - I don't think this is a reasonable argument from a Wikipedia POV. I think that one should take a look at the Wikipedia defination of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War and as this conflict seems to be in accordance with how wikipedia has defined the term, this IS a reasonable Wikipedia argument for the change. Dobbs (talk) 17:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia-Russian war

I think it's a Georgian-Russian war. Georgia declared war on Russia and Russia probably did the same, so change the name of the article. Robin Hood 1212 (talk) 15:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

If you read the article you will understand that war has not been declared. The Georgian president has said that Georgia is in a state of war. ^Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\^Work 15:10, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia didn't do it yet (and hardly will). Alæxis_¿question? 15:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia didn't declare war on Russia, it was invaded, it declared a "State of War" for 15 days. Ijanderson977 (talk) 15:40, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't even invaded! Russia has yet entered Georgia, it is it South Ossetia right now. BWC56 (talk) 16:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia was involved in the previous war to... and? It's involved as part of the Ossetian side, remember? Thats all. BWC56 (talk) 16:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

and South Ossetia is in Georgia. Also Russia has bombed Gori, in Georgia and parts of Abkhazia which is also a part of Georgia. Ijanderson977 (talk) 16:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Formaly? Maybe. In real? Just for the experiment, in a peacful time, try to enter Abkhazia or South Ossetia in Georgian military uniform :-P Besides I hope South Ossetia and Abkhazia wont be even formaly Georgia after this conflict. I simply dont get the logic here! Why should an Abkhazian, living on his land he stole from nobody, be considered as living in Georgia? We are not babies lets talk in de-facto terms. BWC56 (talk) 16:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Name of article:Conclusion

With all respect to you kids being excited they can coin the name of a war thru Wikipedia, no. In the media, wherever, it is called the 2008 South Ossetia War. In other places it is calles the 2008 South Ossetia Conflict. You cant start an article name section 10 more times, you still wont be allowed to play with that toy. BWC56 (talk) 16:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It depends on how far things escalate.Geni 16:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

When a media concensus will adopt a different name, we will do it to. Wikipedia existed since 134BC, and when the name of The Big War was changed into First World War in 41 because another big world war burst out, Wikipedia was there, and changed it's name. BWC56 (talk) 16:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Poland calls for emergency EU summit due to Russian invasion of Georgia

[28] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.16.144.67 (talk) 15:53, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Recent news

Upper Abkhazia: Georgian forces repel Abkhaz attack.

Georgia Says Destroyed 40 Russian Tanks

[29]: earlier decision revised; Georgia pulls all of its troops from Iraq.

Georgian Athletes Withdraw from Olympics. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 16:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Another Proxy WAR.

Georgia is close friend and ally of USA in east Europe. The gov of Bush provides weapons to Georgia. We can say that this is another proxy war of USA and you should talk about this in the article.

Do you have any solid third part sources for that?Geni 16:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

This is typically Russian conspiracy theory. They are thoroughly brainwashed by this sort of bullshit. --93.177.151.101 (talk) 16:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

When you dont like the truth - Call it a conspiracy theory. BWC56 (talk) 16:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, the USA has nothing to do with the conflict/war. Yeah, okay, they sent some weapons to Georgia, but that didn't happen in the last two days... That's like saying East Germany (which does not exist anymore since 1989) is supporting Georgia, because they have some East-German tanks. -- DanteRay (talk) 16:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

There's a diffrence beetwen something you buy on times of peace, then something you get at times of war. BWC56 (talk) 17:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes you are right, but Georgia got the American weapons in times of peace. There are no reports that the US has sent Georgia weapons in the last two days. -- DanteRay (talk) 17:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

• USA has trained Georgian troops.[30] - a fact. Some sources discuss if they may have been trained for this war.[31] Georgia is alway reported as U.S. ally.Garret Beaumain (talk) 17:09, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Carl Bildt chief of foreign diplomacy of Sweden compares Russian actions to those of Adolf Hitler

Calls Russian actions violation of international law and says Russian explanations are comperable to those of Adolf Hitler.

[32] --83.16.144.67 (talk) 17:04, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Is there a Swedish source? I'd be better than the Polish one.

Coincidence

• Interestingly how it coincides:

Russia's NATO ambassador said on Saturday talks with Georgia on ending fighting in South Ossetia could only start when Georgian troops ceased fire, and withdrew to the positions they held before the conflict began.

And now

Georgia's Security Council secretary, Alexander Lomaia, said Saakashvili's proposal means that the Georgian troops will withdraw from Tskhinvali, the provincial capital of South Ossetia, and stop responding to Russian shelling.

Will they? If Georgia really will retreat and cease fire (previous ceasefire was turned down hours after it was declared, unfortunately), there's a chance for peace talks. Wish the words will be followed by the actions.--Garret Beaumain (talk) 17:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I prefer to continue the fighting and to libarate the Ossetians and Abkhazians. I'm tired of those Georgians. They don't give Ossetians and Abkhazians minimal human respect. They laugh at their demand to live free and independent on their land. I would like to see the whole Georgian leadership caught and punished for the murder of Ossetians and Abkhazians, and not only at this war, but almost to decades. It would be nice if Georgians will have to ask for authonomy from Great Ossetia. 17:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)