Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Music genres task force

Sample tables and footers

There are some more sample tables and footers at User:TUF-KAT/Fun with tables. They are all a work in progress, especially electronic music, which may be too vague a term for the infobox. Tuf-Kat 04:34, Mar 30, 2004 (UTC)

• Wow! That looks awesome. You've obviously been putting a great deal of thought into it, and it is paying off. Kingturtle 06:12, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nice One. Do you want me to make a start on Reggae? --Bwmodular 11:08, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Go ahead. I'm probably going to start implementing the ones on my subpage tonight. Tuf-Kat 11:21, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

Great. There's a start at User:Bwmodular/SandBox. An interesting question arose for me though. In the broadest context of Reggae, I'd say that Ska and Rocksteady are sub genres of Reggae. However, historically, they are really precursors and influences on, rather than sub-genres. I've put them in as sub genres, but would value your opinion. Can they go in both sections? I'll wait for you to implent yours before I do mine, in case of any last minute changes to the format.--Bwmodular 11:52, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

About to add the Reggae box, but can't work out where you've put the msg:hiphop custom message. It's not here Wikipedia:MediaWiki_custom_messages or Wikipedia:MediaWiki_custom_elements - Can you tell me where I should put msg:reggae? Thanks. --Bwmodular 11:49, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oversight. It should be at Wikipedia:MediaWiki custom elements and indeed, is now. Tuf-Kat 15:20, Apr 2, 2004 (UTC)

Reggae pages done - now to write that missing page for Dub Poetry :) --Bwmodular 10:37, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

MediaWiki talk note

I created Template:genre for music genres talk pages. Tuf-Kat 06:40, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

Color scheme

I have recently added color scheme guidelines to diversify different genres or music.

Please add more genres if possible

Andros 1337 14:45, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Music Collaboration of the Week

I would like to announce the introduction of the Music Collaboration of the Week, which aims to coordinate our efforts in improving a music-related article every week. Please come help us decide on the first article to be chosen! Tuf-Kat 04:40, Nov 19, 2004 (UTC)

What about Classical?

What about Romantic? Borouque? Classical? I think there is much lacking. All I see is "popular" music.

Classical music has entirely different needs, and its own Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music. Tuf-Kat 00:42, Feb 19, 2005 (UTC)

And what about new age music? --Andylkl ^(talk) 10:57, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Should probably have its own color and genrebox. Tuf-Kat 20:46, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Heavy metal genrebox color

 

#FF4D00

 

#FF2400

 

#BB0022

I would like to suggest the change of the color of the genrebox of heavy metal to a tone close to "#ca1b02". Cyan doesn't quite reflect the overall feeling of the genre. I would like to hear the opinion of anybody involved in the project. If I get no negative replies in three days, I will make the change. --Sn0wflake 03:05, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• I actually do agree that heavy metal should be in the red category. However, your somewhat brownish-red shade IMO deosn't reflect the feeling of the genre either.

I have these suggesstions (top to bottom):

• A fiery vermilion (#FF4D00)
• An also fiery scarlet (#FF2400)
• Somewhat of a blood red (#BB0022)

Andros 1337 03:38, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I like the idea of #BB0022. I support it fully. --Sn0wflake 03:47, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Perfect! Andros 1337 04:06, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

New stub template: {{music-genre-stub}}

Greetings from the WikiProject Stub sorting. As some of you probably already noticed, there is now a dedicated stub template for music genres. I guess I should make a proper announcement here anyway. The template is Template:music-genre-stub, and the Category is Category:Music genre stubs. -- grm_wnr Esc 02:36, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

lists of metal bands

Please have a look @ Talk:List_of_heavy_metal_bands#Redundant. Sam Spade 15:05, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

heavy metal

I edited

Now I am getting all kinds of grief on my talk page, among other reasons because I had the audacity to change the color? Apparently I have to ask permission, or some such? Is this the right place? And who gets to decide? Why them and not me (who rewrote the template). Sam Spade 23:03, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Because the Wikipedia is a democracy. As for the proposition, I vote against it. All templates should follow the current color pattern (white/black letters on a contrasting background). If this kind of exception is made, then everyone gets the same privilege, which will lead into a minor standard chaos. --Sn0wflake 00:17, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia_is_not_a_democracy. Also, what is the possible harm of some variety of color? Sam Spade 10:58, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

It keeps everything simple. If heavy metal gets a special text color, that means that other genres will have to get a text color too. This will make things more complicated. I started the concept of using different colors for different genres, and it was greatly expanded by Tuf-Kat. I wanted this to be a simple color-coding method. Andros 1337 20:01, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Sam Spade, to me, what that paragraph you linked says is: empty votes with no reasoning or argumentation are discouraged, not the proccess of reaching a community consensus by means of vote. I did present a reason for my vote. It is simply a matter of all templates following this standard. No font color. It helps improve redability and gives a more professional look to the 'pedia. --Sn0wflake 20:05, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Survey_guidelines. Sam Spade 21:36, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Are you proposing the creation of a survey? --Sn0wflake 22:11, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Hehe, no. I am advising you to read that policy, which explains that the wikipedia is not a democracy, and that votes are not binding. Anyhow, I am going to step back from this template color discussion for awhile, maybe I'll bring it up some other day. Sorry to ruffle so many feathers, Sam Spade 22:28, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

That is most certainly not explained there. A democracy occurs when all can express their thoughts about a situation. It has NOTHING to do with voting. --Sn0wflake 23:44, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Are you talking about Democracy? Thats a system where people vote. The wikipedia is not one. We are a benevolant dictatorship, with an underlying philosophy of concensus. Lets move on, eh? Sam Spade 00:48, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Intersting, you created an argument and vehemently insisted on your point. You then lost interest and randomly posted rules and links to try to come off as superior whithout ever giving a straight answer. Yes, I do tire of arguing with you. Let's indeed move on. --Sn0wflake 01:23, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Improvement drive

Two related topics, Percussion instrument and Rhythm and blues have been nominated to be improved on WP:IDRIVE. Come and support the nomination there or comment on it.--Fenice 07:30, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Fusion genres

Metalcore has been done using crimson (rock). This is being used on the subgenre articles with the template:heavymetal template:hardcorepunkbox boxes on the main metalcore article. My feeling is some mid-colour would work well but rock and heavy metal colours are quite close - could rock be made say scarlet, thenn fusion could be crimson. Any ideas of best practice? Using two boxes seems apt in this instance but not ideal. Other multiple genre situation arises with Christian rock, etc. Paul foord 15:53, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

For subgenres, they normally should follow the same color as the main genres. Originally, heavy metal also used crimson as a color. However, Tuf-Kat decided to assign heavy metal its own color. She assigned it cyan. However, SnOwFlake thought that cyan doesn't reflect the genre's feeling well, so he and I agreed on the current color. Andros 1337 18:38, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Lone genres

There are loads of genres that aren't tied into this project. Grime is an obvious example. I'm tempted to go and tag every music genre article I find with the genre tag. We have 157 varieties of dance music at least ;) Secretlondon 20:59, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

i've just gone through every music genre i've got on my watch list, but there are many more that could be included in the project. if anyone has some spare time they could go through all the lists of music genres and add {{tl:genre}} to related article discussion pages to spread the word. --MilkMiruku 03:15, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

genreboxes

i was just wondering, does anyone know if there's any convention or precedent for putting infobox template code & details in a seperate template (like with template:heavymetal or template:hardcorepunkbox) in other sections of wikipedia? is this practice the best way of going about things? --MilkMiruku 03:26, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

No, there is no precednt. It was mainy used for the larger templates. Andros 1337 02:45, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Blues

I have tried to improve the article blues recently. Now I think it is more or less comprehensive. However, I believe it is still far from brilliant prose. It may also a bit lengthy. Could someone from this project have a look at it? Thank you. Vb 12:06, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Electronic music WikiProject

There's a new WikiProject started for improving the Electronic music categories. If you're interested in helping, then take a look at WikiProject Electronic music. Hagbard Celine 18:27, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

indie pop

I've created a (stub) article for indie pop. Definitely within the scope of this project. Just a bit of a heads up to anyone interested in helping out there. Arturus 11:06, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Articles for the Wikipedia 1.0 project

Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-Class and good B-Class articles, with no POV or copyright problems. For example would Rhythm and blues rank as A-Class, in your opinion? Can you suggest some other A or decent B-class articles we might use? Please post your suggestions here. Cheers, Walkerma 05:06, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Blues genre colour has legibility problems

See Template_talk:Bluesbox Paul foord 03:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Brazilian Rock: another genre?

i'm lost. i guess this is the best place to put it, so... straight to the issue: shouldn't brazilian rock be a genre? i'm editing some artists and have already stated it as a genre... if it's not to be considered a genre, i will just correct them... though i'd like to know why. capi 23:40, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Related discussions

Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World music#template use and Category:Articles needing an infobox. Circeus 17:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Template:Heavymetal

What the heck? I don't hav e the time to follow you about reverting you, but... this sucks! Sam Spade 15:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Music genres is pretty clear -- only the top-level genre page (e.g. heavy metal music) gets the infobox. That's exactly how every other infobox on the wiki works AFAIK. Tuf-Kat 15:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

In my experience Wikipedia:WikiProject Music genres is aplace where one or 2 arrogant people make decisons for the rest of us, suggesting that being members of a wiki-project grants them sort of final say (I am unaware of wiki-projects having any actual official authority). Maybe I'm just jaded, see my experience here. Either way I completely disagree with what your doing. I see no possible benifit, but plenty of inconvenience and instruction creep. So... outside of some obscure guideline on a wikiproject w 3 members... why are you doing this?Sam Spade 15:53, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Because it's an infobox... All infoboxes go on one page -- it's got information about heavy metal music, not grindcore or National Socialist black metal. Most of the info and links in the box are tangential at best in an article like Bay Area thrash metal. If someone wanted to come up with a standardized way of linking subgenres (or even an infobox designed for subgenres), I'd be fine with that, but it's just far too bulky and irrelevant to throw template:heavy metal into dozens of articles. Tuf-Kat 16:02, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

We probably agree more than we disagree, esp. about cruft like "Bay Area thrash metal". Where we don't agree is how templates help or hinder obscure articles. I personally put them EVERYWHERE they could possibly of value, because they help me(and others) ALOT. Lets have a look @ {{Heavymetal}} {{blackmetal}} Both have cruft. Both help readers find what they are looking for. Neither is irrelevant. If they are bulky, lets trim the template, not trim the template from the articles it links to! Sam Spade 16:29, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I think both are useful for the articles they were meant to be used in. Template:Heavy metal is useful in the article on heavy metal music, template:Blackmetal is useful in the article on black metal. Some sort of templatized box might very useful on heavy metal subgenre and other related pages, but we need a box specifically designed for that purpose. Tuf-Kat 16:47, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

On an unrelated note, the genrebox needs someone who knows how to make sections optional. Samba looks ridiculous... Also, only top-level genres should have a box like this -- others generally don't need it (such as the one I removed awhile ago from Miami bass). Does anyone agree that only major genres need boxes? (of the current type, anyway, since they mostly won't use many of the fields) Tuf-Kat

I really don't see the downside of putting templates on every page they link to. I've always done that, and am at a loss to see the downside. I personally jump from article to article making edits and researching bands, and find them incredibly useful. That alone would seem to trump the "clutter" issue (the only argument I have discerned, outside of wiki-project guidelines, which I'd be glad to change). Sam Spade 17:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

• Reasons not to:
  • This Wikiproject page has said not to for a long time, and no one has ever complained. Therefore, I think there is consensus for that rule.
  • Clutter, providing lots of irrelevant links in articles that don't need them; relevant links could be better provided using a different template
  • Inconsistency in that some genres are currently following WikiProject directions and using footers, others use bizarre combinations of things, and some genre pages even use two separate boxes
  • Potential for bias in that many genres are of disputed lineage and/or may need several boxes - e.g. grindcore, which could easily get three or four
  • This is the normal way Wikipedia works. I don't know of any infobox that is repeated on numerous pages. There's no taxobox at trade and usage of saffron, the Canada infobox is not at Quebec, nor at geography of Canada, etc. Why should this one be different?
• With that said, we're obviously not going to convince each other. More opinions are needed. Tuf-Kat 17:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

As far as genreboxes go, I agree with Tuf-Kat that the heavy Metal genrebox does not belong on it's sub/fusion genres (Though i can't tell about "derivative" stuff as I have NO idea where is the difference). However, I don't see why {{Infobox Music genre}} for sub/fusio genres with the most proeminent parent's color scheme. But here I speak as an outsider with little knowledge in the area, so feel free to disregard that. Circeus 18:22, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I also took the liberty of posting a request for comment on this. Am I right to say that Sam Spades eoughly believes that Genrebox such as {{heavymetal}} should be applied to all subgenres? Circeus 19:53, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Why not just make a smaller box like we did for hip-hop for the individual articles?--Urthogie 21:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You mean a footer? I could have sworn there was one already for that style family. *facepalm* That is the quite obvious answer to the whole issue, and is actually standard for these articles. Circeus 21:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Glad to be of service.--Urthogie 21:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Unofficial genre colors

Color	used at	normally for
Lightblue	Post-punk	Pop music
Red	Deathrock	not in use
Green	{{Ccm}}	not in use
Blue	Vallenato	Blues

Post-punk and Deathrock should both be crimson. CCM can get its own color. A different color will need to be used for Vallenato. Andros 1337 18:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Are the genrebox templates really necessary?

• Template:altrock (talk · links · edit)
• Template:blackmetal (talk · links · edit)
• Template:bluesbox (talk · links · edit)
• Template:Ccm (talk · links · edit)
• Template:emo (talk · links · edit)
• Template:punkbox (talk · links · edit)
• Template:hardcorepunkbox (talk · links · edit)
• Template:hiphopgenrebox (talk · links · edit)
• Template:jazzbox (talk · links · edit)
• Template:metalcore (talk · links · edit)
• Template:pop (talk · links · edit)
• Template:RockBox (talk · links · edit)
• Template:smoothjazz (talk · links · edit)

If I understand correcty, these templates were at somepoint usedon several pages, but that is not the case anymore (with a few disputable exceptions). Why exactly are these single-page version of {{Infobox music genre}} kept separate? Circeus 23:59, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

i think that was just the way it started out. now that the infobox template is being used on more subgenre pages it would probably be a good idea to use it on the ones above that use the specific templates. --MilkMiruku 01:37, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

POV push?

There seems to be POV issues over at Rapcore:

• I add {{Heavymetal}}.
• User:LUCPOL reverts as minor edit without summary
• I restore, asking for justification.
• He reverts again, removing every non-rap categories
• I revert
• He remove the template again, and leaves this cryptic justification onm y talk page
• I answer with common sense and revert
  • (At this point, we have noth reached our WP:3RR limit)
• He goes over at {{heavymetal}} and swicthes it to hip hop colors!
• I revert.
  • And that's it so far

Opinions? Comment? Circeus 01:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

aditionally, see [1], [2] and [3]. I cannot comment on these as I have no musical knowledge myself.