Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 March 5

March 5

Category:Old Georgians (KGV)

Propose renaming Category:Old Georgians (KGV) to Category:People educated at King George V College

Nominator's rationale: Rename, to a standardised descriptive format (see WP:NDESC) which incorporates the title of the head article. This clarifies the purpose of the category for both readers and editors, allowing easier navigation between articles and reducing the risk of miscategorisation.

This category was somehow missed out from the group nomination below (see Disambiguated Old Fooians), and the lengthy explanation there is also applicable to this category. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:48, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

• Rename Currently we have an obscure piece of jargon disambiguated by an unfamiliar acronym. Using the school's name is much clearer. Timrollpickering (talk) 02:09, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename "KGV" is a useless disambiguatory term. From first glance, it looks like it's categorizing people who served aboard the King George V series of battleships. 70.24.251.71 (talk) 05:04, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename. That is unclearer than most of these categories.--Mike Selinker (talk) 05:19, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename Current name is utterly meaningless. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:23, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename the current category would seem to have some connection with George V of Georgia. In fact this category is probably meant to distinguish them from those connected with George V of Imereti (Imereti being western Georgia) who would of course fall in the category Category:New Georgians (KGV). KGV makes me think of KJV (King James Version, also known as the King James Bible) and KBG. Maybe this cateogry is about those who worked to bring about the King George Version. It does not appear to exist, but the V makes me want to think it does.John Pack Lambert (talk) 09:19, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename per nom. Cures obscurity and jargon issues. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 21:11, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Sri Lankan Old Fooians

Propose renaming:

• Category:Old Nalandians to Category:Nalanda College, Colombo alumni
• Category:Old Rajans to Category:Dharmaraja College, Kandy alumni
• Category:Old Thomians to Category:S. Thomas' College, Mount Lavinia alumni
• Category:Old Trinitians to Category:Trinity College, Kandy alumni

Nominator's rationale: Rename all, to a standardised descriptive format (see WP:NDESC) which incorporates the title of the head article. This removes ambiguity, and clarifies the purpose of the category for both readers and editors, allowing easier navigation between articles and reducing the risk of miscategorisation.

The proposed new names fit the "Foo School alumni" convention of Category:Alumni by school in Sri Lanka.

There is a fundamental problem with this whole type of "Old Fooian" collective name, as expressed most eloquently by Moonraker (talk · contribs) in another recent discussion: "there are very few references anywhere to people educated at a particular school (including this one) as a group". That's exactly why these "Old Fooian" terms don't work well for category names: they are rarely used, and therefore unknown to the general readership for whom Wikipedia is written. However, even if editors accept the use of "Old Fooian" collective terms for other schools, these particular ones are unworkable examples of the format, because they are ambiguous:

• Old Nalandians (Nalanda College, Colombo) could refer to people associated with Nalanda, an ancient center of higher learning in Bihar, India.
• Category:Old Rajans (Dharmaraja College, Kandy) could refer to people associated with a Raja (Indian term for a monarch), or with the principle of monarchy. It could also refer to those associated with the British Raj, a common term for British rule in the Indian subcontinent between 1858 and 1947
• Category:Old Thomians (S. Thomas' College, Mount Lavinia) could easily be read as reference to adherents of Thomism (usually known as "Thomists"), a philosophical school that arose as a legacy of the work and thought of Saint Thomas Aquinas. It could also refer to alumni of the many other St Thomas Schools or St Thomas Colleges
• Category:Old Trinitians (Trinity College, Kandy) could refer to people associated with any of the huge number of educational institutions around the world which are known as Trinity School or Trinity College

In some previous dissuasions, editors have suggested changing the "Foo School alumni" convention of Category:Alumni by school in Sri Lanka. Whatever the merits of a change in the convention, may I suggest that it would be best to discuss that idea separately, rather than lumping it in with this discussion of "Old Fooian" terms? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:16, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

• Rename. When the "Old (X)" discussions have ended, we can deal with the issue of "Alumni of"/"alumni" categories.--Mike Selinker (talk) 15:33, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename per nom to cure ambiguity and jargon issues. The use of "alumni" for Sri Lankan categories is a separate issue for another day. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 20:56, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename per nom - while I believe that the "PEA" format is better than "Alumni", better to achive consistency first on a good-enough title then take another bite of the apple (or pea?) later. Proposed titles are clear, unambiguous, unjargony, and consistent. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:02, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename per nom; and I like the idea of 'previous dissuasions'. Oculi (talk) 22:24, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename all for clarity per nom and past CFDs. Timrollpickering (talk) 01:46, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename Category:Old Rajans is as bad as Category:Old Royalists, which we renamed.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:55, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment in South Asia the "Old Tomians" form has strong potential for ambiguity since the Christians claim that St. Thomas the Apostle brought Christianity to India, and this fact is louadly proclaimed and identified with by Orthodox Christians in India.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:56, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguated Old Fooians

Propose renaming:

• Category:Aston Old Edwardians to Category:People educated at King Edward VI Aston School
• Category:Old Citizens (City of London School) to Category:People educated at the City of London School
• Category:Old Columbans (St Albans) to Category:People educated at St Columba's College, St Albans
• Category:Old Elizabethans (Queen Elizabeth's Hospital) to Category:People educated at Queen Elizabeth's Hospital, Bristol
• Category:Old Elizabethans (Guernsey) to Category:People educated at Elizabeth College, Guernsey
• Category:Old Georgians (Harpenden) to Category:People educated at St George's School, Harpenden
• Category:Old Johnians (Hurstpierpoint College) to Category:People educated at Hurstpierpoint College
• Category:Old Johnians (St John's School, Leatherhead) to Category:People educated at St John's School, Leatherhead
• Category:Old King's Scholars (Chester) to Category:People educated at The King's School, Chester
• Category:Old Kingswoodians (Bath) to Category:People educated at Kingswood School, Bath

Nominator's rationale: Rename all, to a standardised descriptive format (see WP:NDESC) which incorporates the title of the head article. This clarifies the purpose of the category for both readers and editors, allowing easier navigation between articles and reducing the risk of miscategorisation.

All of these categories use a naming format which was devised as a way of disambiguating ambiguous "Old Fooian" terms, or clarifying obscure ones. However, the "Old Fooian (school name)" format has not been supported at any CfD in the last 8 months, and is now outdated.

One of these categories (Old Citizens (City of London School)) was renamed to ts present title at CfD 2007 June 23. All but one of the other categories in this listed were created after that decision, the exception being the Old Johnians (Hurstpierpoint College)) which was created in April 2007 and speedily moved to its present name in Feb 2009.

The June 2007 CfD appears to have been the precedent for the naming format of the others. That decision reflected the desire of some editors to keep the "old Fooian" style, and the inability of those who wanted a descriptive naming format to agree on a choice between "former pupils", "former students", and "alumni". That lack of a clear alternative persisted until August 2011, when consensus was finally reached on using the "People educated at" format (PEA) for the non-Fooian subcats of Category:People educated by school in the United Kingdom.

Since the stable alternative was agreed, there has been a consistent consensus in at least 25 separate CfD discussions to rename any further ambiguous "Old Ffooian" categories to the PEA format. More than 60 such categories have been renamed so far, e.g. Old Danes, Old Lancing, old Decaconians, Old Stoics, Old Royals, Old Dovorians, Old Queens, Old Instonians, Old Lerpoolians, Old Novocastrians, Old Norvicensians, Old Parkonians, Old Ruymians, Old Tamensians, Old Gregorians, Old Sennockians, Old Redingensians, Old Petriburgians, Old Ignatians, Old Mid-Whitgiftians, Old Leodiensians, Old Cholmeleians, Old Grovians, Old Queenians, Old North Londoners, Old Victorians, Old Diocesans, Old Gowers.

Time now to bring these into line. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:55, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

• PS In most of these cases, there are disambiguation categories which will need to be updated if this renaming proceeds. There is also a {{category redirect}} at Category:Alumni of Kingswood School, Bath, which will need to be updated too. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:16, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Discussion (Disambiguated Old Fooians)

• Rename.--Mike Selinker (talk) 14:26, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename. Oculi (talk) 14:40, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename. These are interesting half-way constructs. I support just making the category names entirely intelligible to all, which the nomination does. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 20:55, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename - GO'f says it best. Proposed names are clear, unjargony, unambiguous, consistent, and clean. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:03, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename per nom and previous CFDs. Timrollpickering (talk) 01:44, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
• Rename aal. The attempts at disambiguation fail in all cases. the dismabiguation does not in many cases link to a current category name. In the case of Category:Old Elizabethans (Queen Elizabeth's Hospital) many readers (especially the over 90% not from the UK) will wonder "is this for retired doctors, nurses and other staff of that hospital, or from aged people who died there?"John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:00, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• On that basis they would also misinterpret Category:People educated at Queen Elizabeth's Hospital, Bristol. Cjc13 (talk) 11:13, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

• Comment are not Category:Old Elizabethans (Guernsey) those who supported the ascendsion of Queen Elizabeth I and lived in Guernsey, as opposed to those who were "Elizabethans" who were born later or became her partisans later on. On the othjer hand maybe we have to call them "Old Elizabethans" to distinguish them from the current residents of Guernsey, who are the new Elizabethans, living during the reign of Queen Elizabeth II.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:04, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• Do you have a source for this nonsense? Cjc13 (talk) 11:13, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:Commonname and WP:NDESC, as the current names are the ones actually used publically and the proposed names have no sources. The titles should reflect the actual names used outside Wikipedia. For instance, a google search for "People educated at King Edward VI Aston School" -Wikipedia produces no results whereas "Aston Old Edwardians" -wikipedia produces 49,000. Cjc13 (talk) 11:13, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment Many of the recent Cfds relating to this topic have been closed by Vegaswikian, who seems to have his own views on the topic so that the decisions reflect his own opinion rather than the actual discussions. This undermines the value of those discussions and has put off many people from contributing to them. Cjc13 (talk) 11:27, 14 March 2012 (UTC)