Talk:East Timor

HDI Index

Hi, Just before the contents section, East Timor is shown as being ranked 120th in HDI Index. In fact it should be 147th according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.209.224.177 (talk) 09:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

http://www.foralcplp.org/files/foral/2009/div/timor-leste_divAdmi.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.43.228.138 (talk) 13:11, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

It is 147. This is the figure officially calculated by the UNDP's Human Development Index. It's definitive. Their methodology is transparent and accepted. Any other figure is bogus, especially one several years out of date. (Who locked this page from editing anyway, and who insists on naming Timor-Leste as East Timor?) 116.90.173.30 (talk) 08:05, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Education Section

Can whoever added content to this section review it and add citations?

• "Indonesian plays a considerable role within education" has no citation, I can't find any support for this sentence and I find it hard to believe it's true. Also did not understand whether it was Indonesian as language or people or government who plays the considerable role in education...

• "Illiteracy was at 90% at the end of Portuguese rule" unless a citation is given this should be removed.

• The entire paragraph needs restructuring as it is presently a poor amalgamation of isolated sentences with no inter-connected ideas.

• "Since the departure of the Portuguese, schools have increased from 50 to more than 800. " again if no citation given this should be removed. It is also politically incorrect and I'm sure highly arguable; dates are preferred or a little more integration with history because the Portuguese departure in 1974 meant the Indonesian occupation in 1975 and only recently, post-UN intervention, the number of schools boomed. I also couldn't find any support for this anywhere...

• "There are also 4 colleges." yet another sentence without context. What exactly are 'colleges'??? There is no point saying this if we can't understand what they are or what does it mean in terms of education system. The use of word college varies between English-speaking countries! I also can't get to the source....

-JH 86.143.116.218 (talk) 09:52, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation conflict

The Portuguese pronunciation in the lead conflicts with the one offered in the Name section ([tiˈmɔr ˈlɛʃteɪ] versus [tiˈmoɾ ˈlɛʃtɨ]. I suggest that the pronunciation in the lead be removed or replaced by the correct one (with the {{IPA-pt|pron}} template). Thanks! 109.149.73.110 (talk) 11:58, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

• the first pronunciation must be in English and not of any Portuguese dialect that I know, not even Timorese Potuguese. The second pronunciation [tiˈmoɾ ˈlɛʃtɨ] is standard Portuguese. I think there are many problems concerning Portuguese pronunciation on various wikipedia articles, but that doesnt seem the case in this. --Pedro (talk) 14:20, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I understand. Maybe use a clarifying IPA template? 109.149.73.110 (talk) 15:48, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mdann52 (talk) 17:23, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

East Timor → Timor-Leste – as discussed in Timor-Leste#Name, Timor-Leste is now the official short form of the name in all languages including English. It is the more commonly used and recognized name in every country except Australia. miracleworker5263 (talk) 04:46, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Again? No - per WP:COMMONNAME. This was discussed most recently last year and there was no consensus to move - resoundingly so. Here I'd be interested to know how you might verify your notion that only in Australia is it called East Timor. --Merbabu (talk) 08:41, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

PS - a table used last year. I'd be interested to see if these figures have shifted by a significant amount:

	Google hits for "East Timor"	Google hits for "Timor-Leste"
New York Times	8750	49
Washington Post	8260	5720
Wall Street Journal	314	38
The Guardian	50,900	1290
The Daily Telegraph	1080	36
The Independent	2930	26
The Globe and Mail	220	14
The Age	43,900	845
The Australian	3000	152
Sydney Morning Herald	9010	789
New Zealand Herald	8580	870
The Economist	1760	508

• Oppose (again) per WP:UCN (use common names) and WP:UE (use English). Wikipedia doesn't do official names. This hasn't changed since the last formal proposal (here). —  AjaxSmack  16:31, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Wiki's geographic names are determined by the “widely accepted name" standard. The Chicago Manual of Style (§8.43) recommends the CIA's World Factbook as a source "for country names." CMOS is the most widely used style guide and is recommended in WP:MOS. “Timor-Leste" is given not only by the World Factbook, but also by the U.S. State Department, Voice of America, the UN, the Timorese government, and The Jakarta Post. Aside from style issues, we normally call countries whatever they like to be called. A name change upon independence is certainly a common practice. Furthermore, there has been a major shift in usage in recent years. As for the chart above, the numbers on it don't seem to correspond to anything real. After deghosting, I get 344 "East Timor" hits on the New Zealand Herald site. So they have not really published anything like 8580 articles on this subject, despite what the chart suggests. Finally, I hope that all participants in this debate respect WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA this time around. Kauffner (talk) 17:13, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
• Comment The Economist is one of the sources listed in the above table, but at least in recent usage it seems to have been using Timor-Leste (e.g., http://www.economist.com/node/21554255 ). It is also generally the case that when a country announces a name change, and there is no significant internal opposition to the change (e.g., Burma/Myanmar), by and large the world comes to accept the new usage. For instance, our article is at Côte d'Ivoire, not Ivory Coast. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 18:12, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

  The chart Merbabu posted is a crock, isn't it? Googling east-timor site:www.economist.com gives you 16,400 results, compared to 20,700 for timor-leste site:www.economist.com. The "East Timor" hits are usually ten years old. The Economist has been using "Timor-Leste" for several years now. Kauffner (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

• Support. For reasons provided by Kauffner (above). danielkueh (talk) 18:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. It is unfortunate that we have to do Côte d'Ivoire (maybe) and Iran (certainly), but in this case we don't have to move yet. Srnec (talk) 23:38, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

  Iran? — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 00:07, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per Merbabu and AjaxSmack. --BDD (talk) 18:56, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose My own subjective personal judgement is that East Timor is how most people who have heard of it think of it, I think a lot of people will not have heard of Timor Leste, or at least think about it if they saw it in writing. PatGallacher (talk) 20:24, 5 June 2012 (UTC)