Talk:Rigoletto

Question

Did Liszt actually transcribe the opera Rigoletto? Or just the famous paraphrase of "Bella figlia dell'amore" in Act IV?

Notability of Armando Gabba, baritone singer

A user has been edit-warring for deleting this entry:

• Armando Gabba, a baritone opera singer who performed in 1984 with Renato Bruson, Edita Gruberová, Brigitte Fassbaender, and Neil Shicoff in Rigoletto, and is still active

from the disambiguation page Gabba, arguing that he's not notable enough to ever have a Wikipedia article, and thus to be listed as a redlink on a dab page. You can provide opinion and information (positive or negative) about it at the discussion page Talk:Gabba so as to help sort it out.

Thanks,

-- 62.147.112.36 14:51, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Roles box: "dash" looks like "smiley face"?

These blanks are gradually being filled in by members of the Wiki opera group.

Certainly more spacing is fine if you object to the "smiley face" look, but there seems to be little point in changing over all of the "Roles" boxes for every opera to "not known".

I support User talk:Whjayg's revert. Viva-Verdi (talk) 17:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

"Orgy" is inaccurate

At some point in the editing of the synopsis, the opening scene of the opera (a ball in the Duke's palace) became an "orgy". A few modern productions, e.g. at London's Royal Opera House in 2001, have depicted it this way.[1], [2]. However, this is not what is described in the actual libretto:

"Sala magnifica nel palazzo ducale, con porte nel fondo che mettono ad altre sale, pure splendidamente illuminate. Folla di Cavalieri e Dame che passeggiano nelle sale del fondo - Paggi che vanno e vengono - Nelle sale in fondo si vedrà ballare. Da una delle sale vengono parlando fra loro il Duca e Borsa."

English translation:"A magnificent room in the ducal palace, with doors at the back which give onto other rooms, also splendidly illuminated. A crowd of lords and ladies stroll about in the rear rooms - pages come and go - in the rooms at the back people can be seen dancing. The Duke and Borsa come out of one of the rooms conversing with each other."

When writing synopses, media descriptions of specific productions and/or second-hand synopses should always be checked against the original libretto. In the interests of accuracy, I am changing "orgy" to "ball". Voceditenore (talk) 07:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Sounds as if whoever put "orgy" in there didn't understand what "ball" meant here! --Thnidu (talk) 20:20, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Painting of the composer

This appears twice and I wonder why. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.230.181 (talk) 17:08, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Because whoever created Template:Verdi operas didn't check to see if the picture chosen duplicated the one already in the article. Eek! That was me! However, I've now substituted a photo for the article's painting. Maybe I should go through all the articles on Verdi's operas to see if this happened anywhere else. --GuillaumeTell 17:28, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

E il sol dell'anima

Where is this song in the synopsis? Dylan Hsu (talk) 20:06, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Act 1, scene 2, when the Duke reassures Gilda that he loves her. I've added it to the synopsis, together with the "Addio, addio" ending to the duet. --GuillaumeTell 01:01, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Banda

(Also posted on Wikipedia:Help desk)

Instrumentation includes "banda", with a redlink to Banda (opera). I've just been looking for what is meant. "Banda" is Italian for

Band (in all senses); banner; company, crew. — civica, municipal band.

(Cassell's Italian Dictionary, 1967)

I have started a draft article, User:Thnidu/Banda (opera), which so far is barely even a stub but does have one offhand reference. I would appreciate any elaboration, especially by someone who knows the territory.

I have been looking for a more exact forum to post this in but without any success. List of musical ensemble formats looked promising but is minimal.

Thnidu (talk) 20:30, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Banda is Italian for band, but it has a special and well documented role in opera, not only Verdi, althugh he used them a lot, but also Rossini and other composers of the era. I've expanded your draft at User:Thnidu/Banda (opera) and added further sources. There is definitely enough now to move it into main space where it can be further expanded. Let me know if you'd like me to do that. Voceditenore (talk) 15:08, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

• Now moved to article space at Banda (opera). Voceditenore (talk) 18:48, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Restoration of composer navbox

Per Robert.Allen on Don Carlos, I propose that Template:Infobox opera be removed and replaced with Template:Verdi operas. The long-serving navbox is more useful and non-obtrusive, while this new Infobox opera is distracting and adds no information that is not already and better presented in the lead. --Kleinzach 02:56, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree. Viva-Verdi (talk) 03:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

To not repeat the same arguments (opera navbox is redundant, infobox is meant to repeat key facts), please let's argue at Don Carlos, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

No, if you are going to go from article to article doing this kind of thing, each instance needs to be noted. By the way what other articles now have these boxes? --Kleinzach 01:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Please see Don Carlos for update, As you probably know, links to a template can easily be found using the function "What links here". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Agree – The navbox should be restored and the Infobox removed. --Robert.Allen (talk) 08:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

• Please tell me what is wrong with this infobox, while a general discussion is going on on the project level, quote (not by me) "My personal opinion is that where a footer navbox is available, replacing the header one with the infobox is perfectly acceptable. It is also perfectly acceptable not to do so." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:54, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

We've spent the best part of the last three months explaining what we think is the problem with your infoboxes. If you want some references try the last AN/I started by Andy Mabbett here. Kleinzach 14:39, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Not the question. I would like to know what you think is wrong with this particular infobox, agreeing that we spent too much time on AN/I. Rigoletto is is not a composer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

What's wrong with it? 1. It isn't as useful as the navbox. 2. It doesn't summarise the article (as any worthwhile infobox should). 3. It doesn't help the opera newcomer understand what Rigoletto is. Want any more? I can probably add another three or four. Or are we just playing games to put off the inevitable reversion? Meanwhile, of course, none of us are contributing to the encyclopaedia. --Kleinzach 14:57, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

1) The side navbox (see Falstaff (opera)) is not useful at all because all of it re-appears in the bottom navbox. I have been lectured that duplication doesn't serve our readers. Any infobox is more useful than that.

2) I am sure that you see the word "summarise" too literally. The first objective is to give the reader an idea about a time and location of the article topic, in this case time and theatre/city of the premiere. The infobox also summarises the main people associated with it, composer, librettist, and author of the play that serves as a base. It could go further, but the design objective was to keep it simple.

3) Would the navbox help the opera newcomer what Rigoletto is? - The infobox has a link to the list to works by Verdi, that has a link to "opera", - whoever doesn't know a thing, can click deeper.

The infobox serves the reader better than the redundant navbox. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:24, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Many articles in many other wikiprojects have an infobox and a navbox; they serve different purposes. The infobox provides summary information for the article in question, the navbox helps find related articles within the project. Both fruit, but definitely apples and oranges. And Kleinzach, comments like the above, using the "royal we" to describe your own views in oppisition to those of Gerda, are rather close to a personal attack, given that there are clearly two sides on this issue and more than one party on each. Montanabw^(talk) 16:55, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I've ever seen a nav box at the top of an article before. They've been at the bottom. That's where this one should be. As for infoboxes I agree with Gerda. As for all this protracted bickering over Infoboxes, which most users seem to enjoy viewing, I really don't see what the problem is with using them. And when you meet St Peter at the Pearly Gates, is bickering over infoboxes what you want to say you accomplished with your life? PumpkinSky talk 20:35, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely right. People used to write articles. (If you want to see my record, have a look at my userpage.) Now we have people coming here with an agenda to disrupt that work by putting inappropriate boxes on all the articles. Kleinzach 23:58, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

"inappropriate boxes" how are infoboxes inappropriate? They are well accepted by the community. And "disrupt that work" shows the root of the problem....you think you OWN this article. PumpkinSky talk 01:17, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

PumpkinSky: Please do me the courtesy of reading what I write. I did not say that infoboxes are inappropriate. I have used a great many of them. However there are bad ones — as others have noted. Also re. OWN, I'm not the principal contributor here. I am one of many people who have contributed. Please be more circumspect in your comments. --Kleinzach 03:47, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

PumpkinSky, what do you mean, "... the bottom. That's where this one should be ..."? There IS one at the bottom. The one on top to be "restored" is redundant. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:45, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Not when I looked at it there wasn't. It was at the top.PumpkinSky talk 20:48, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Rigoletto currently: infobox at the top, navbox at the bottom, the version that I support. "Restoring" means returning to a former version similar to Falstaff: navbox at the top (operas and works) AND at the bottom (general including operas and works), redundant. (Needless to say: Falstaff was already restored, as many others that I didn't count.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:09, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

OK, let's keep this simple: Side navboxes are silly and are easily confused with infoboxes, which are generally helpful to the article and placed at the beginning of an article. Navboxes at the bottom are generally useful and to avoid confusion should not be placed on the side... Kleinzach, whatever else is going on here, the real point is only that. Further, please remember to AGF; no one has a "disruptive agenda" here, unless disagreeing with you is somehow inherently "disruptive." Which I doubt, use of the "royal we" notwithstanding. Montanabw^(talk) 19:16, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The top right opera article navbox was designed many years ago and has enjoyed a strong consensus from the opera editors. The purpose of the box was to make it easier to move from one opera article to another, and also tell the reader about similar articles of which he/she may not have been aware. The lower page navbox was designed for main article biographies etc. (The content of the lower page box is sometimes a bit wider to reflect this different usage.) (I'm ignoring the personal comments here — life is too short — pity they are so prevalent.) Kleinzach 01:05, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

There's a strong consensus that nav boxes should be in the bottom, and infoxes in the top right. You're the only one I see supporting your viewpoint here. PumpkinSky talk 13:41, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Have a look slightly higher up this page. Also note there are lots of top right navboxes, e.g. Category:Prehistoric period navigational boxes, Category:Ancient Greece campaignbox templates and Category:Olympics navigational boxes. If you work through the categories you'll find lots of them. Ergo there is no consensus on positioning. --Kleinzach 07:35, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I do support having a (small & accurate) infobox on any article, but I do also agree that {{Sidebar}} is a widely used template/system ("44673 transclusion(s) found.") and I do also agree (with the as yet unspoken position) that our 2 overlapping template-navigation systems/locations are confusing! (And are the result of years of parallel development. The sidebar started off from the basis of Wikipedia:Article series, afaik.). FWIW, the ordering guidance if both (infobox and topright-navbox) are used on one page, is at MOS:LAYOUT#The lead section. Sorry to confuse matters further! :) –Quiddity (talk) 18:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Your claimed "strong consensus from the opera editors" is immaterial, when it is counter to the string consensus for an alternative option shown by the wider community. I won't bother to explain why, as you've been told this many times over the years, and appear to be wilfully ignoring it. Again. Your various assertions ("designed for main article biographies", et al) appear to be inventions. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:11, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

The article should have one navbox, at the bottom. People are more likely to read an article to the bottom, then want to go to a related one, than to want to go to the related article while they're still at the top of the first. The infobox proper should be kept, to both provide a handy summary of key points from the article, and make them machine-readable. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:16, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Kleinzach, Viva-Verdi, and Robert.Allen that the old template should be restored. Template:Infobox opera seems clunky and it is far easier and more comfortable to read in the first two sentences of the lede the information which it duplicates. No clamour of complaint was ever present about the old template - if it ain't broken, why fix it? - otherwise one might assume that there is merely some attempt at being WP:POINTy here.--Smerus (talk) 16:22, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you agree with me that all links in the sidebox are repeated in the bottom navbox, whereas a date in template form appears only in the infobox, and only the structured information in the infobox is useful for Wikidata. Did you read the related Signpost article? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:36, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

1) I think the infobox is intrusive and completely useless; and I am not aware of any evidence base to indicate that it has any use. 2) I think the metadata sogennante 'argument' is a complete scam, as even if metadata are supposed to be essential (and I am not going to debate that here) , there is no reason why they should be embedded in visible features.--Smerus (talk) 20:34, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

I have just replied to your near-identical first point, at Talk:Don Carlos. The metadata argument is not a scam, and metadata is not "embedded" in visible features; visible features are invisibly (to humans) marked up so as to be machine-readable as metadata. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

See my more recent comment at Talk:Don Carlos for my refutation of this. --Smerus (talk) 05:08, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Side comment here. The standard infobox is a useful tool for wikipedia users who are taking a casual glance at an article, in addition to the metadata issues. Design issues are a different debate, but not one sufficient to throw the baby out with the bathwater here. I am personally of the view that most articles past stub class benefit from one. The classical music projects are among the most reactionary on this topic; the sciences and most biographical articles have been using them - effectively - for years. Montanabw^(talk) 15:34, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

It is you are rather reactionary, in the sense of out of date - the attitudes I am expressing seem to be in line with the latest thinking - See for example here and comments - wake up and smell the coffee!--Smerus (talk) 16:03, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Smerus, I read that article, that's a different discussion about style and content. Here, you're just behaving like a rather nasty S.O.B. who is insisting that everyone else is far inferior to you. It's this sort of bullying and intimidation that discourages the people who actually try to improve the encyclopedia. Montanabw^(talk) 16:58, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Unequivocal apologies, I was not thinking in terms of a personal attack, was overeacting to being classified as reactionary. Agree it was uncalled for. But as you have now called me a nasty SOB I guess we both have something to regret. --Smerus (talk) 17:17, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I call it as I see it. Perhaps that wasn't the tone you intended to convey, but it was the tone that came across. I will note that I stopped short of implying something like Evil reptilian kitten-eater from another planet, as I do fully acknowledge your humanity and that you are probably a perfectly fine person outside of this particular spat. But so too are Mabbitt and Gerda - decent folks. Montanabw^(talk) 20:42, 15 July 2013 (UTC)