Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Layout

the Layout of header sections, I think it needs more

I was reading the header part of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout#Order of article elements and that made me wonder:

• Can/ should a page have more than one infobox ? (the list speaks in the plural)
• Should the "Foreign character warning boxes" not be before the info boxes? (assuming that the infobox can contain the foreign characters)

The info on this section is very minimal, more information can be found at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section but then there is no link to that page. (not regarding the headers that is) But even then does this part (the header of an article) not deserve its own Wikipedia:Manual of Style/header section subpage? I did make a link of Navigational boxes (header navboxes) to wikipedia:SIDEBAR and maybe this part can also be expanded on that page. (not all sidebars are relevant here I guess) WillemienH (talk) 23:58, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Regarding multiple infoboxes, it's sometimes done when a subject is notable in multiple domains. Pat Connaughton plays both basketball and baseball, and has both types of infoboxes. While this "can" happen, it probably shouldn't as it looks clunky IMO; in the ideal world, infoboxes would be more modular to allow for the rare hybrid case. Some infoboxes are designed to include others—see Mark Harmon, who is an actor and former athlete—but even that has some rough edges.—Bagumba (talk) 22:52, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

It's confusing that at WP:ORDER the term "Lead section" is used for the initial chunk of text (listed as the first part of "Body", after a group of items under "Headers"), while the link WP:Lead section leads us to a page which includes all of those "Headers" items as "Elements of the lead".

It would also be useful to have a more detailed list of "what goes where" to include:

• {{italic title}}
• {{use British English}} etc
• {{use DMY dates}} etc

They are distinct from the maintenance templates, in that they are permanent aspects of the article - in the case of "Italic title" it's a bit of code to produce an effect, in the other cases a note for editors - but nothing that needs to be dated, or removed when actioned. I think they probably go alongside the Foreign character warning boxes, but it would be helpful if they had a specific home so that their presence or otherwise in an article could be checked quickly. Perhaps all that's needed is for "Foreign character warning boxes" in WP:ORDER to be replaced by some broader category which would clearly include these other things. PamD 15:26, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm late to discussion, but I agree—I'd like more specific instructions for this sort of thing, including the {{coord}} template.—DocWatson42 (talk) 06:23, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

@DocWatson42: Unless part of the infobox, {{coord}} doesn't go in the header but in the last section, after the succession boxes and navboxes, but before the defaultsort and categories. See MOS:ORDER item 4 sub-item 2. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:13, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

@Redrose64: Oh, foo. I would have sworn I'd read otherwise somewhere (that it goes in the top of articles), back when. <sigh> I think that makes more sense, given the "title" display parameter.—DocWatson42 (talk) 10:57, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Although the |display=title parameter means that the coords are displayed in the same place on the physical page regardless of the location of {{coord}} in the page source, this is only true for sighted people. For those reliant on screen readers, such as Graham87 (talk · contribs), the order of the page source is crucial, since this governs the order in which the screen reader announces each item. This is why (for example) we insist that hatnotes go first of all. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:49, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. The easiest way for me to find the coordinates on a page is to use my screen reader's find feature to search for "coord". Graham87 05:40, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Placement of {{Portal bar}}

Moved from User talk:Redrose64 § At MOS, removal of 'portal bar' from Layout - See also.

 – Redrose64 (talk) 15:00, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Greetings, In response to your edit removing 'Portal bar' from SA section. The location for this template was discussed at Template talk:Portal bar#Location previously in 2012. I have not reverted your edit but am wondering whether this needs more clarification. For the articles that I'm updating, usually I place the portal bar template as first line after See also line. If there are many SA entries, I place the Portal template instead so the portals are stacked vertically and to the right side. Rarely do I see the portal bar after the External links section. Regards, — JoeHebda • (talk) 20:35, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

I didn't "remove" it - I put it back where it came from, since Template:Portal bar#Location says "within articles, this template is usually placed at the bottom of the article". It doesn't name a section, but implies the last section, which won't be "See also" in any article that has references and also follows MOS:ORDER - it'll be "References", "Further reading" or "External links".

Changes to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout should be discussed at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Layout or at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style. If you amended Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Layout as a result of a discussion, you should have linked to that discussion in your edit summary. Since you had not done so, I checked both of those talk pages, and found no mention of portal templates - bar or otherwise. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:14, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

(was coming here to explain why I reverted ...but section already started) I have restored the edit as per the documentation page and normal usage of portals. I have also update the doc page to reflect the lead of the doc and its normal usage. Even-thought the template is not a guideline its just an essay the see also section for this is the norm so the MOS should reflect that. -- Moxy (talk)

(end of moved content)

Regarding this revert: the recommendation where to place {{Portal bar}} should not be lumped together with {{Portal}} because their appearance is fundamentally different. The former should go at the bottom of the article where all page-wide boxes congregate. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:04, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hello, everyone.

I think a bold change by yours truly, and a couple of forth and back reverts by our esteemed colleagues Redrose64, JoeHebda and Moxy has very well demonstrated that we need to discuss this issue: Must {{portal bar}} appear in "See also" section, or along with navboxes?

Argument in favor of "See also" section:

1. That's where portal links, such as {{Portal}} and {{Portal-inline}} appear. Why should {{Portal bar}} be exempt?

Argument in favor of navboxes section:

1. Visually, {{Portal bar}} fits better with navboxes
2. Navboxes contain internal links strictly; but they don't appear in "See also" section either, in order to suppress the effects of link bombing.
3. {{Portal bar}}, like most navboxes, does not appear in the print, again for the same reason.
4. Some navboxes, such as {{Microsoft}} have portal links as well, so portals do not strictly appear in "See also" section anyway

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 08:40, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Poll area

Here is where you can add your choice of "See also" or With navboxes, along with you rationale.

• "See also". The reason it was invented was to make sure the portals did not overlap into the section below. Was not intended as a footer...but as the last thing people see before non internal sections (refs, external links etc.). We should not be hiding the portals at the bottom of the page after all the external links...it should be with the content of the page. Plus the fact many footers have the portals the bottom of the page would have redundant links. Moxy (talk) 11:08, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
• See also. And Navboxes should be in See also too. But that is a discussion for another day. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 12:09, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
• With navboxes or, more generally, at the bottom of the article, because that doesn't disrupt the appearance of the article. If navboxes on a page already have links to portals, {{portal bar}}, or {{portal}}, should be omitted. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:59, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
• "It depends" – I put together a wikitable at User talk:JoeHebda/sandbox1#Portal placement examples rather than adding it here. Hoping this clarifies the choices for portal placement in articles, depending on the article's existing content. — JoeHebda • (talk) 20:03, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm ammending my vote to Subject bar template instead. See subsection below. — JoeHebda • (talk) 12:55, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• See also section. Also support combining the redundant templates into {{Subject bar}} (or into one of the others, as long as they're combined), whether that template is used in the "See also" section or used as a navbox at the bottom of the page; it depends on the form of the template (if it's a navbox, it goes with the navboxes; if it's something smaller, keep it in "See also" along with the interwiki templates, etc.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:53, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Discussion area

The invaluable discussions take place here.

* FYI – There is Portal explanation at Wikipedia:Portal#How to add portal links to articles. It also mentions about portal placement. — JoeHebda • (talk) 13:28, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

As does Template:Portal#Location.... that I recently added to Template:Portal bar#Location that perhaps should be reverted till this talk is over? -- Moxy (talk)

Moxy – Yes it might be a good idea to revert those. I'm glad we are having this discussion, a great change to clarify this portal topic. Hoping to get multiple votes from editors, especially with more experience than mine. Regards, — JoeHebda • (talk) 20:17, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

 Done....Should be noted the intro at Template:Portal bar/doc explains the bars purpose for being made. -- Moxy (talk)

Another option, Subject bar template

Greetings, After much searching I finally located this template which I had only seen once or twice.

Template:Subject bar

Wondering if this Subject bar template would be a better alternative than these three?

• Template:Portal
• Template:portal bar
• Template:portal-inline

In the Subject bar documentation it explains placement & reason to use.

This navigational template is intended be placed at the end of an article, after the References or External links and before any navboxes and categories. It offers an variant to several floating box templates that link to books, portals, and Wikipedia's sister projects but also typically cause formatting issues because of their size and alignment.

For example:

{{Subject bar |portal1= Biography |portal2= Primates |portal3= Madagascar}}

Regards, — JoeHebda • (talk) 16:02, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

* Seeking more discussion:

Greetings to (Redrose64—PBS—EEng—Otr500—SMcCandlish—Godsy—PamD—Butwhatdoiknow—Bagumba—Izno) – Asking for your comments regarding MOS / Layout, discussion about templates "Portal", "portal bar", "portal-inline" and "Subject bar". Looking for a consensus of where best article placement. Regards, — JoeHebda • (talk) 13:10, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Summoned by ping. I'm afraid I haven't enough of a feel for the role played by navboxes and so on to have anything useful to add to the conversation. EEng 17:55, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
• As noted above, I support combining the three templates, but don't care in which direction. If it's a navbox, put it with the rest of the navboxes; if it's something smaller put it in "See also" with interwiki templates, etc.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:55, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 3 July 2016

Basiliscowerdelyne (talk) 02:56, 3 July 2016 (UTC) •write the important details.

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — JJMC89 (T·C) 03:03, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

MOS:BODY

How should editors interpret the opening sentence of MOS:BODY?

"This style guide only lightly gives recommendations of how the body of an article should be ordered, because the diversity of presentation in various Wikipedia subjects is too great to do more in general summary form..." (italics added)

One way to interpret the opening sentence is that the remaining guidance in MOS:BODY carriers very little weight, and so editors and WikiProjects can disregard the MOS:BODY guidance re sections and paragraphs if they choose. A second way to interpret the language is that MOS:BODY doesn't tell us what content goes in which section headings, but that MOS:BODY's generally applicable advice re sections and paragraphs should still be followed.

If the second interpretation is correct, then the opening language of MOS:BODY is essentially the same advice as what is contained in one of the sections within MOS:BODY — Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Layout#Names_and_orders_for_section_headings ("Wikipedia has no general standards or guidelines for what section headings are expected in the bodies of articles or what order they should take ...").

If that interpretation is correct, I would recommend folding the opening language of MOS:BODY into the opening language contained within the subsection re Names_and_orders_for_section_headings. That would remove the redundancy, and make clear that the MOS:BODY generally-applicable guidance re sections and paragraphs should be followed. Thoughts? CUA 27 (talk) 12:54, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Hi

A third interpretation is that more than any other section, this section of MoS is subject to exceptions dictated by the common sense and penmanship. MoS is great in general but it does not turn its reader into an excellent author. In fact, poor writers can potentially make the life very miserable for the good writers.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 13:24, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

I don't think I explained myself well the first time, so I'll take another shot. There are four sub-sections within MOS:BODY, but the introductory language to MOS:BODY appears to apply to only the section re names and orders of section headings. I think what I'll do is I'll take a shot at WP:BOLDLY making a change; if editors like the change, great; if not, we can revert. CUA 27 (talk) 01:23, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

See Also fix

I am having some major reservations with regards to the Seealso section, which suggests that editors can make OR connections between two articles that they themselves perceive as being connected. Instead, why not utilize those connections made by reliable sources, so as to avoid editors making connection like Bernhard Goetz to the Punisher. The connections are often trivial, and the connecting of similar events, persons or things seems to run afoul of OR (and especially synthesis). - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:24, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

I disagree with the change you are proposing. It would replace editorial judgment and common sense with an unnecessary rule. I also take issue with the fact that you have chosen to not follow WP:BRD but have twice now made the same change when it has become clear that there is opposition. CUA 27 (talk) 17:06, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

All the existing articles with a See also section would be in breach of the proposed new rule. The verifiable/original research dimension applies to article content: what goes in See also can remain the subject of editorial discretion and discussion. I can't see how this is practicable either: to take an example at random, try to find a reliable source saying that Spanish American wars of independence is linked in some way with History of Spain (1810–73). No, a new rule with major implications like this needs to be subjected to a well-advertised RfC: Noyster (talk), 18:21, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Respectfully, we shouldn't be using editorial judgment or common sense to determine what is connected and what is not. We are supposed to use sources to support any statement within Wikipedia (with very few exceptions, like summaries). Why do editors get to determine what shares similarities and what does not when we insist on using references for every other aspect of our articles?

And I was utilizing BRD with my edits. The first revert was because the reverting editor thought the edit wasn't a clarification, so I put it back in as a proposed change; a little AGF wouldn't hurt. RfC's don't come into play unless, after discussion here fails to find a solution.

Lastly, I am not going to address OSE argument, or the idea that there is too much stuff to change. We have tens of thousands of editors working on millions of articles; it would quickly get sorted out, and the end product only strengthens Wikipedia. What if somone comes along and decides - using the guideline as it currently stands - to add to the the Donald Trump article a See Also for Adolph Hitler? There are certainly enough people who think there's a solid enough connection, and I've personally seen at least half a dozen reliable sources that could back up the claim. But of course, I wouldn't need cites to make the connection, because its up to my judgment to connect them in the See Also. That's what this hole in guideline allows. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:20, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Oppose for the same reasons mentioned by CUA 27 and Noyster. One cannot simply replace the care for WP:NPOV (or lack thereof) with rules that cannot be enforced. It isn't just the man who must respect the laws. Laws must respect men too. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 07:10, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, we are just in the discussion phase at this point, Lisa; no need to vote yet. I don't understand your statement; how could 'See also' sections go unenforced? IEither a connection is cited with respect to our NOR and V policies, or its not. The litmus for inclusion is not our synthesis of two separate things into a perceived connection, but a referenced source that makes those connections. Out of all of our collective edits, what we remove the most from Wikipedia articles is uncited content. If the See also in an article is truly connected, then a source would have connected them. If they have not, then its a sure sign that its the editor using their own particular judgment to connect them. That's not what we are here for. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:30, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

One more go: A "See also" item is not a statement, of fact or of someone's opinion, needing support from citations. A "See also" is a suggestion: it's telling the reader "We've got these other related articles as well that may interest you; you won't already know about them because we didn't link them in the text". How these suggestions are related to the main article should be pretty damn obvious and no more contentious than including List of museums in London as a see-also under London (try finding a citation to support that). Tendentious, even perhaps libellous, see-also entries, such as linking an article about a living person to a hate-figure of another time and country, should be removed on sight and if an arguable perceived connection is somehow really important to tell readers about, it should appear in the article body, of course cited and with due weight to different views: e.g. [hypothetical example]:

"Some commentators have compared John Doe to Hitler,^{1 2 3} while others have likened him to St Francis.^{4 5 6}"

There should be nothing under See also that calls for a citation and perhaps that is what may be appropriate to reinforce on the MoS page: Noyster (talk), 20:50, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

I believe your statement that "A 'See also' item is not a statement, of fact or of someone's opinion" is incorrect. You advertise it as an advert for other articles which is related to the article they are reading. It is in point of fact a relationship that the editor is stipulating exists. We as editors aren;t allowed to make those sorts of judgments; we use references to make those connections. And simply adding Hitler to the See also section of the Trump article would indeed be libel - as it would present as an uncited connection - adding it with a reference removes us from any libelous behavior, as we are adding reliably-sourced statements. However, the discussion of Trump is moot.

Here is the basic question to ask yourself: has a reliable source noted the connection between this article and the See also link? If not, then its clearly not important enough or close enough to connect. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:21, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

While the libelous intricacies of adding statements that Trump reminds many Holocaust survivors of Hitler aren't lost on me, citing the numerous sources that take this stance removes us from the chain of libel, as we are simply adding reliably-sourced statements

I continue to oppose the proposed change. If this proposal were implemented, many articles would have their See also sections eliminated or significantly shrunk, which would impede readers from discovering articles on related topics. More fundamentally, I don't see what is the problem that this change is attempting to solve — the fact that tangentially related articles show up in the See also section is not a problem to be fixed; instead, that's the very purpose of the See also section. CUA 27 (talk) 02:15, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

@CUA 27: So, if I am to understand your opposition to the proposed change, it is based on the supposition that doing so would make See Also sections vanish, leaving the reader high and dry without a way to follow their bliss to related articles, right? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:17, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

I think consensus here is against this. I really wish Jack would have let me know of this discussion since between us on an article talk page, and I think efforts to go and change a policy while you're arguing with another user, especially when it appears Jack tried to do this unilaterally, without consensus here, such a bold move for such a significant change to a longstanding policy, when the other user has existing policy on his side, are disingenuous and duplicitous. This sort of thing has not only gotten people blocked; they have been hauled before ArbCom and admonished. Wikipedia is not the Kobayashi Maru. Daniel Case (talk) 03:58, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Respectfully, that is not the case. My edit to the See also in the article in question was reverted citing policy, and when I saw that allowing the slimmest of connections was actually allowed, I initiated conversation here. I knew your position; I wanted other viewpoints. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:43, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Oppose a dangerous rule basedon a misunderstanding that would weaken Wikipedia. Editors have roles of reading the Wiki articles to see which articles are related. The main objection is that an editor commits OR: that is false because OR only deals with secret unknown info that cannot be checked. In this case everyone in one second can click on the SEE ALSO item and see whether it is linkable. (Outside published sources will almost never discuss the Wiki articles--the editor has to read the two wiki articles.) Rjensen (talk) 04:58, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Wow, just..wow. Allow me to correct a number of interpretation errors in your post @Rjensen:.

First is the supposition that that my proposed alteration to the policy is a "dangerous" "misunderstanding" that would "weaken" Wikipedia. I don't see any 'misunderstanding' in my expectation that information be cited. In point of fact, the See also section absolutely encourages Original Research via Synthesis.

To use the case intimated by Daniel Case above, we have an article about a missing child. In the See also, there is another article about another missing child. There are precisely zero references connecting the two - the connection exists solely in the perception of the editor. With mad props to Daniel, he is taking the aspects of two very different, unrelated cases and noting them as similar. This is a verbatim violation of synthesis, and is currently allowed by this See also guideline. While Daniel's instance is less of a leap, the aforementioned instance of connecting Trump to Hitler is a huge one to make; without references, its a BLP violation.

A second point you made: "Outside published sources will almost never discuss the Wiki articles", is e a startling misunderstanding of what we are talking about here. No, when i say that in order to connect the two (using the example of the two articles about missing children), there has to be a source discussing how one disappearance has similarities to the case being wikilinked. I am not sure where you got the idea that a source has to connect one wikipedia article to another wkipedia article. No one has suggested that. Ever.

So, the main thrust of this problem is, in essence, while we do not allow editors to synthesize material anywhere else in Wikipedia, this one section allows us to make connections based on no sources, and the probability of See also connections approaching the esoteric, absurd and just plain wrong approached 100%.- Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:02, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

"information be cited" is a misunderstanding. the "see also" article is information and it is cited. Wiki has always had the rule that a text is a reliable source about itself that when any reader has access to it. Rjensen (talk) 05:51, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Again, you are completely missing the point: what reference connects the two different articles? The answer is that no reference connects the two, and so this current state of the rule allows editors to do something that they cannot do virtually anywhere else in Wikipedia - they get to use original research to synthesize a connection that they cannot cite. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 08:41, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Oppose. Good articles are written by good editors in possession of excellent judgment. Ignoring this fact, Jack is trying to supersede editor's discretion with impossible rules. (Stress on impossible.) Do I even need to say that it is insane? Cheers. FleetCommand (Speak your mind!) 04:39, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

@FleetCommand:'good editors in possession of excellent judgment'. We both know that this is rarely true. If it were, there'd be no need for noticeboards and ArbCom. While there are excellent editors out there, they are excellent because they follow the policies that we set down, pertinent among those being no original research, verifiability.

I guess i am not understanding why its "impossible" or "insane" to expect every editor to you know, find references for connections? It's an encyclopedia. See Also sections that allow Synthesis erode one of the Pillars of Wikipedia. What is the point of insisting on no original research, when editors are allowed to do precisely that with a synthesized connection?

Let me ask you a very simple question - if a reliable source didn't connect the article to something int he see also section, what makes it worthy of note? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 08:52, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

"they are excellent because they follow the policies that we set down"

How arrogant, especially for a person who doesn't have a Good Article or Featured Article is his or her record. In fact, your edit history shows you are just a pot calling one million kettles black.

"erode one of the Pillars of Wikipedia"

Wikipedia has no such pillar. Pillars of Wikipedia are WP:NOT, WP:NPOV, WP:Copyrights, WP:Civility and WP:IAR.

FleetCommand (Speak your mind!) 11:15, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Could you please limit your comments to the content of the edits and not attacking the editor? I'm fairly certain that being civil is one of the Pillars. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:54, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Defending one million editors is never uncivil. Arrogance is. FleetCommand (Speak your mind!) 12:30, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

When you do so using indefensible personal attacks, its uncivil. Please AGF and be civil. Or else. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:23, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

See also – break

Suggestion I do see Jack Sebastian's point, but would still not agree with the remedy. What we could consider instead is the sentence:

The links in the "See also" section might be only indirectly related to the topic of the article because one purpose of "See also" links is to enable readers to explore tangentially related topics.

This does leave the door open to unwarranted and tendentious connections. How about making this more restrictive, something like:

The links in the "See also" section should bear a direct and obvious relation to the topic of the article.

Then any See also item would need only a minimal explanation, if any, and no citation. Less obvious connections such as the See also item currently in the article that has been alluded to here, when the connection is explicitly cited, could instead be inserted as a sentence of prose in the article body.

We should also recall that we have a system of Categories, although I'm not sure whether we do enough to make readers aware of it. For example, from the child disappearance article they could easily find a list of articles about other missing person cases in the same country, or in the same decade: no need to rely on a See also section for this purpose: Noyster (talk), 16:01, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

I like both of your suggestions, though I lean towards a more explicit approach (the 'direct and obvious relation' part). I do still think that if these sorts of connections are going to be made on BLPs, they need to be cited or removed; the presumption is that a relationship exists between the two that might be disparaging or misleading to the reader.

I also agree with your point that we should be using categories to search related articles. If an editor draws a conclusion that seems more OR than not, a much wider circle of editors is able to catch it right away.

That's the point of my suggestion in the first place; to remove the instances of OR that can pop up in See Also sections and slow development of GA and FA quality articles. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 23:01, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

The examples given above of inappropriate use of "See also" have involved living people. We don't need to change the generally-applicable guidance on this page, however, to address that concern. WP:BLP already addresses this: ""See also" links ... should not be used to imply any contentious labeling, association, or claim regarding a living person, and must adhere to Wikipedia's policy of No original research."

I applaud Noyster's attempts to explore a middle path here, but as I stated above, I still don't see what is the extant problem that we are trying to solve. One the rare occasions when I have noticed See also sections bloated with numerous links, I have pruned the least relevant ones, and I don't think I've ever been reverted. I simply don't see a systematic problem that would be improved by more guidance or restrictions along the lines proposed. CUA 27 (talk) 02:01, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Well, I am looking at this as perhaps an oversight in guidance, not additional guidance. Secondly, these aren't new restrictions: we already have to cite connections, or risk synthesis.

Look, the greater bulk of our articles are watchlisted by at least a few editors. I see a lot of Original Research end up in the See Also sections, because the editor thought the movie reminded them of another movie. By definition, that is Synthesis. You are taking the particulars of one thing and comparing them to another thing and drawing comparisons by linking them. Throughout Wikipedia, we have to cite the content of our articles (plot summaries being one exception). Why is this any different?

I am not advocating some massive purge of See also sections. I am suggesting that these connections need to be cited to a reliable source that notes the connections as well. If no one notes said connection, it might be Trivia, or a fringe theory. It doesn't have to happen all at once. As we come across them, we either find a reference connecting them, tag it as needing citation or (if the tag has gone stale), we remove the editor-connected bit. This happens all the time anyway. I am simply suggesting that we make sure editors know that synthesis isn't acceptable.

The way it is written now seems to allow for editors to make connections without sources connecting them. That's not acceptable. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:21, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I vehemently disagree. It seems to me that when you see a link in the See Also section, you interpret a meaning from it that isn't there and now are facing a void of reference for that meaning. Your example suggests that you go to a movie's article, see another movie's name in the See Also section, read "This movie has strong ties with that movie" even though it is not explicitly written and then demand a source for it. Quite frankly, you must part ways with what is not written, instead of requesting a policy against it.

Best regards,

Codename Lisa (talk) 06:55, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

I literally have no idea what your last sentence, meant, Lisa.

Again, I will ask you, point blank: who is saying that the two articles are related, a reliable source, or the editor connecting them? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:22, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

No one. They may not even be connected. Get it? Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 11:36, 14 November 2016 (UTC)