Talk:East Timor: Difference between revisions
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*'''Support'''. Wiki's geographic names are determined by the “[[WP:NCGN#Widely_accepted_name|widely accepted name]]" standard. The ''[http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Manual-Style-16th-Edition/dp/0226104206/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338824277&sr=8-1 Chicago Manual of Style]'' (§8.43) recommends the CIA's ''World Factbook'' as a source "for country names." CMOS is the most widely used style guide and is recommended in [[WP:MOS]]. “Timor-Leste" is given not only by the ''[https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tt.html World Factbook]'', but also by the [http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35878.htm U.S. State Department], [http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/asia/Ten-Years-Of-US-Timor-Leste-154584665.html Voice of America], [http://www.un.org/en/members/countryinfo.asp?countryname=timorleste the UN], the [http://www.gov.east-timor.org/AboutTimorleste/timorleste.htm Timorese government], and ''[http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/20/friendly-ties-sby-attends-timor-leste-s-10th-anniversary.html The Jakarta Post]''. Aside from style issues, we normally call countries whatever they like to be called. A name change upon independence is certainly a common practice. Furthermore, there has been a major shift in usage in recent years. As for the chart above, the numbers on it don't seem to correspond to anything real. After deghosting, I get [https://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&biw=1606&bih=1193&q=%22east+timor%22+site%3Awww.nzherald.co.nz&oq=%22east+timor%22+site%3Awww.nzherald.co.nz&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5769l7008l1l8106l3l3l0l0l0l0l181l500l0.3l3l0#q=%22east+timor%22+site:www.nzherald.co.nz&hl=en&prmd=imvns&psj=1&ei=F-TMT93eO_CaiAfP0qjmBg&start=334&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=7d65c6e64998ba97&biw=1024&bih=499 344] "East Timor" hits on the ''New Zealand Herald'' site. So they have not really published anything like 8580 articles on this subject, despite what the chart suggests. Finally, I hope that all participants in this debate respect [[WP:CIVIL]] and [[WP:NPA]] this time around. [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 17:13, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
*'''Support'''. Wiki's geographic names are determined by the “[[WP:NCGN#Widely_accepted_name|widely accepted name]]" standard. The ''[http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Manual-Style-16th-Edition/dp/0226104206/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1338824277&sr=8-1 Chicago Manual of Style]'' (§8.43) recommends the CIA's ''World Factbook'' as a source "for country names." CMOS is the most widely used style guide and is recommended in [[WP:MOS]]. “Timor-Leste" is given not only by the ''[https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tt.html World Factbook]'', but also by the [http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/35878.htm U.S. State Department], [http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/asia/Ten-Years-Of-US-Timor-Leste-154584665.html Voice of America], [http://www.un.org/en/members/countryinfo.asp?countryname=timorleste the UN], the [http://www.gov.east-timor.org/AboutTimorleste/timorleste.htm Timorese government], and ''[http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2012/05/20/friendly-ties-sby-attends-timor-leste-s-10th-anniversary.html The Jakarta Post]''. Aside from style issues, we normally call countries whatever they like to be called. A name change upon independence is certainly a common practice. Furthermore, there has been a major shift in usage in recent years. As for the chart above, the numbers on it don't seem to correspond to anything real. After deghosting, I get [https://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&biw=1606&bih=1193&q=%22east+timor%22+site%3Awww.nzherald.co.nz&oq=%22east+timor%22+site%3Awww.nzherald.co.nz&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=5769l7008l1l8106l3l3l0l0l0l0l181l500l0.3l3l0#q=%22east+timor%22+site:www.nzherald.co.nz&hl=en&prmd=imvns&psj=1&ei=F-TMT93eO_CaiAfP0qjmBg&start=334&sa=N&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=7d65c6e64998ba97&biw=1024&bih=499 344] "East Timor" hits on the ''New Zealand Herald'' site. So they have not really published anything like 8580 articles on this subject, despite what the chart suggests. Finally, I hope that all participants in this debate respect [[WP:CIVIL]] and [[WP:NPA]] this time around. [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 17:13, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Your request to be civil puzzled me, as the thing I could see that was uncivil here was perhaps your comment “The chart Merbabu posted is a crock”. I then read through the previous discussion and was reminded of your attempt to associate those supporting “East Timor” with what you called “Muslim savagery”. Yes, it would be nice to see you be civil and refrain from NPA's. Please discuss the issue at hand. It does not require framing within any political, ethnic or religious grudges you may have. --[[User:Merbabu|Merbabu]] ([[User talk:Merbabu|talk]]) 04:35, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
:::Your request to be civil puzzled me, as the thing I could see that was uncivil here was perhaps your comment “The chart Merbabu posted is a crock”. I then read through the previous discussion and was reminded of your attempt to associate those supporting “East Timor” with what you called “Muslim savagery”. Yes, it would be nice to see you be civil and refrain from NPA's. Please discuss the issue at hand. It does not require framing within any political, ethnic or religious grudges you may have. --[[User:Merbabu|Merbabu]] ([[User talk:Merbabu|talk]]) 04:35, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::All your old grievances back on the table, topped off by an accusation of political, ethnic, religious grudges. ''Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose''.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AEast_Timor&diff=452859123&oldid=45284955] [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 05:20, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Support'''. For reasons provided by Kauffner (above). [[User:Danielkueh|danielkueh]] ([[User talk:Danielkueh|talk]]) 18:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. It is unfortunate that we have to do ''Côte d'Ivoire'' (maybe) and ''Iran'' (certainly), but in this case we don't ''have'' to move yet. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 23:38, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''' The ''Economist'' is one of the sources listed in the above table, but at least in recent usage it seems to have been using Timor-Leste (e.g., http://www.economist.com/node/21554255 ). It is also generally the case that when a country announces a name change, and there is no significant internal opposition to the change (e.g., Burma/Myanmar), by and large the world comes to accept the new usage. For instance, our article is at [[Côte d'Ivoire]], not [[Ivory Coast]]. — [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette|talk]]) 18:12, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
*'''Comment''' The ''Economist'' is one of the sources listed in the above table, but at least in recent usage it seems to have been using Timor-Leste (e.g., http://www.economist.com/node/21554255 ). It is also generally the case that when a country announces a name change, and there is no significant internal opposition to the change (e.g., Burma/Myanmar), by and large the world comes to accept the new usage. For instance, our article is at [[Côte d'Ivoire]], not [[Ivory Coast]]. — [[User:P.T. Aufrette|P.T. Aufrette]] ([[User talk:P.T. Aufrette|talk]]) 18:12, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
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⚫ | *:For Google News, I get [https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=Timor-Leste&oq=Timor-Leste&aq=f&aqi=d1g1g-C1d1&aql=&gs_l=news-cc.12..43j0j0i33j43i400.3162.3162.0.6134.1.1.0.0.0.0.193.193.0j1.1.0...0.0.V6rxbu05UQs 18,100] mentions of "Timor-Leste" in the last month, [https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=East-Timor&oq=East-Timor&aq=f&aqi=d1g-C2d1&aql=&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j0i33l2j43i400.2524.2524.0.2780.1.1.0.0.0.0.144.144.0j1.1.0...0.0.ms1xpqAHLO4 41,900] for "East Timor." That's 30 percent usage for "Timor Leste." Insights shows a [http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=%22Timor%20Leste%22%2C%22East%20Timor%22&geo=US&date=today%2012-m&cmpt=q 25 percent usage] for "Timor Leste" as a search term in the U.S., [http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=%22Timor%20Leste%22%2C%22East%20Timor%22&geo=US&date=today%2012-m&cmpt=q 57 percent worldwide]. No diacritic has a usage rate anywhere near that high, but we usually put them in the title anyway. ''The Economist'' has been using "Timor-Leste" for several years now. The "East Timor" hits that show up are usually ten years old, compare {{google|east-timor site:www.economist.com}} to {{google|timor-leste site:www.economist.com}}. [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 00:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*:<s>The chart Merbabu posted is a crock, isn't it? Googling {{google|east-timor site:www.economist.com}}<s> gives you 16,400 results, compared to 20,700 for {{google|timor-leste site:www.economist.com}}. <s>The "East Timor" hits are usually ten years old. ''The Economist'' has been using "Timor-Leste" for several years now. [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 00:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)</s> |
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*'''Support'''. For reasons provided by Kauffner (above). [[User:Danielkueh|danielkueh]] ([[User talk:Danielkueh|talk]]) 18:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. It is unfortunate that we have to do ''Côte d'Ivoire'' (maybe) and ''Iran'' (certainly), but in this case we don't ''have'' to move yet. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 23:38, 4 June 2012 (UTC)[[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 00:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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⚫ | *:For Google News, I get [https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=Timor-Leste&oq=Timor-Leste&aq=f&aqi=d1g1g-C1d1&aql=&gs_l=news-cc.12..43j0j0i33j43i400.3162.3162.0.6134.1.1.0.0.0.0.193.193.0j1.1.0...0.0.V6rxbu05UQs 18,100] mentions of "Timor-Leste" in the last month, [https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=East-Timor&oq=East-Timor&aq=f&aqi=d1g-C2d1&aql=&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j0i33l2j43i400.2524.2524.0.2780.1.1.0.0.0.0.144.144.0j1.1.0...0.0.ms1xpqAHLO4 41,900] for "East Timor." That's 30 percent usage for "Timor Leste." [http://www.google.com/insights/search/#q=%22Timor%20Leste%22%2C%22East%20Timor%22&cmpt=q |
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*'''Support'''. For reasons provided by Kauffner (above). [[User:Danielkueh|danielkueh]] ([[User talk:Danielkueh|talk]]) 18:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
*'''Support'''. For reasons provided by Kauffner (above). [[User:Danielkueh|danielkueh]] ([[User talk:Danielkueh|talk]]) 18:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. It is unfortunate that we have to do ''Côte d'Ivoire'' (maybe) and ''Iran'' (certainly), but in this case we don't ''have'' to move yet. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 23:38, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
*'''Oppose'''. It is unfortunate that we have to do ''Côte d'Ivoire'' (maybe) and ''Iran'' (certainly), but in this case we don't ''have'' to move yet. [[User:Srnec|Srnec]] ([[User talk:Srnec|talk]]) 23:38, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 05:20, 6 June 2012
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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the East Timor article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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HDI Index
Hi, Just before the contents section, East Timor is shown as being ranked 120th in HDI Index. In fact it should be 147th according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.209.224.177 (talk) 09:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
http://www.foralcplp.org/files/foral/2009/div/timor-leste_divAdmi.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.43.228.138 (talk) 13:11, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
- It is 147. This is the figure officially calculated by the UNDP's Human Development Index. It's definitive. Their methodology is transparent and accepted. Any other figure is bogus, especially one several years out of date. (Who locked this page from editing anyway, and who insists on naming Timor-Leste as East Timor?) 116.90.173.30 (talk) 08:05, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Education Section
Can whoever added content to this section review it and add citations?
- "Indonesian plays a considerable role within education" has no citation, I can't find any support for this sentence and I find it hard to believe it's true. Also did not understand whether it was Indonesian as language or people or government who plays the considerable role in education...
- "Illiteracy was at 90% at the end of Portuguese rule" unless a citation is given this should be removed.
- The entire paragraph needs restructuring as it is presently a poor amalgamation of isolated sentences with no inter-connected ideas.
- "Since the departure of the Portuguese, schools have increased from 50 to more than 800. " again if no citation given this should be removed. It is also politically incorrect and I'm sure highly arguable; dates are preferred or a little more integration with history because the Portuguese departure in 1974 meant the Indonesian occupation in 1975 and only recently, post-UN intervention, the number of schools boomed. I also couldn't find any support for this anywhere...
- "There are also 4 colleges." yet another sentence without context. What exactly are 'colleges'??? There is no point saying this if we can't understand what they are or what does it mean in terms of education system. The use of word college varies between English-speaking countries! I also can't get to the source....
-JH 86.143.116.218 (talk) 09:52, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Pronunciation conflict
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The Portuguese pronunciation in the lead conflicts with the one offered in the Name section ([tiˈmɔr ˈlɛʃteɪ] versus [tiˈmoɾ ˈlɛʃtɨ]. I suggest that the pronunciation in the lead be removed or replaced by the correct one (with the {{IPA-pt|pron}} template). Thanks! 109.149.73.110 (talk) 11:58, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- the first pronunciation must be in English and not of any Portuguese dialect that I know, not even Timorese Potuguese. The second pronunciation [tiˈmoɾ ˈlɛʃtɨ] is standard Portuguese. I think there are many problems concerning Portuguese pronunciation on various wikipedia articles, but that doesnt seem the case in this. --Pedro (talk) 14:20, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, I understand. Maybe use a clarifying IPA template? 109.149.73.110 (talk) 15:48, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mdann52 (talk) 17:23, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, I understand. Maybe use a clarifying IPA template? 109.149.73.110 (talk) 15:48, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Requested move
![]() | It has been proposed in this section that East Timor be renamed and moved to Timor-Leste. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. |
East Timor → Timor-Leste – as discussed in Timor-Leste#Name, Timor-Leste is now the official short form of the name in all languages including English. It is the more commonly used and recognized name in every country except Australia. miracleworker5263 (talk) 04:46, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Again? No - per WP:COMMONNAME. This was discussed most recently last year and there was no consensus to move - resoundingly so. Here I'd be interested to know how you might verify your notion that only in Australia is it called East Timor. --Merbabu (talk) 08:41, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose based on my reasonings above and below. Also, remember “correct” language is determined by usage, not by a government telling what we need to call something. And “recognised” is not limited to recognition by official entities such as government departments or media outlets. Rather, it’s what people use and know something by. Indeed, this is what wikipedia’s naming policy is about – we don’t use official names (whether officially recognised or not), rather we use what things are most widely known by. WP:COMMONNAME --Merbabu (talk) 04:16, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- PS - a table used last year. I'd be interested to see if these figures have shifted by a significant amount:
Google hits for "East Timor" | Google hits for "Timor-Leste" | |
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New York Times | 8750 | 49 |
Washington Post | 8260 | 5720 |
Wall Street Journal | 314 | 38 |
The Guardian | 50,900 | 1290 |
The Daily Telegraph | 1080 | 36 |
The Independent | 2930 | 26 |
The Globe and Mail | 220 | 14 |
The Age | 43,900 | 845 |
The Australian | 3000 | 152 |
Sydney Morning Herald | 9010 | 789 |
New Zealand Herald | 8580 | 870 |
The Economist | 1760 | 508 |
- More widely recognized: "Timor-Leste" is officially recognized by US, UK, Canada, Ireland and New Zealand. "East Timor" is recognized by Australia. ("East Timor" also still seems to be used in official capacity by UK.) I know this isn't by any means a comprehensive list of English-speaking countries.
- I must admit that the table above is a strong argument that "East Timor" is more widely used in the press. The numbers are shifting, but not decisively. Current search results:
Google hits for "East Timor" Google hits for "Timor-Leste" New York Times 28700 586 Washington Post 6560 6780 Wall Street Journal 1580 256 The Guardian 191,000 4110 The Daily Telegraph 2660 403 The Independent 2430 8 The Globe and Mail 579 40 The Age 9870 398 The Australian 8130 198 Sydney Morning Herald 9110 378 New Zealand Herald 7400 4040 The Economist 16400 20700
- Oppose (again) per WP:UCN (use common names) and WP:UE (use English). Wikipedia doesn't do official names. This hasn't changed since the last formal proposal (here). — AjaxSmack 16:31, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Support. Wiki's geographic names are determined by the “widely accepted name" standard. The Chicago Manual of Style (§8.43) recommends the CIA's World Factbook as a source "for country names." CMOS is the most widely used style guide and is recommended in WP:MOS. “Timor-Leste" is given not only by the World Factbook, but also by the U.S. State Department, Voice of America, the UN, the Timorese government, and The Jakarta Post. Aside from style issues, we normally call countries whatever they like to be called. A name change upon independence is certainly a common practice. Furthermore, there has been a major shift in usage in recent years. As for the chart above, the numbers on it don't seem to correspond to anything real. After deghosting, I get 344 "East Timor" hits on the New Zealand Herald site. So they have not really published anything like 8580 articles on this subject, despite what the chart suggests. Finally, I hope that all participants in this debate respect WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA this time around. Kauffner (talk) 17:13, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Your request to be civil puzzled me, as the thing I could see that was uncivil here was perhaps your comment “The chart Merbabu posted is a crock”. I then read through the previous discussion and was reminded of your attempt to associate those supporting “East Timor” with what you called “Muslim savagery”. Yes, it would be nice to see you be civil and refrain from NPA's. Please discuss the issue at hand. It does not require framing within any political, ethnic or religious grudges you may have. --Merbabu (talk) 04:35, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- All your old grievances back on the table, topped off by an accusation of political, ethnic, religious grudges. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.[1] Kauffner (talk) 05:20, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Your request to be civil puzzled me, as the thing I could see that was uncivil here was perhaps your comment “The chart Merbabu posted is a crock”. I then read through the previous discussion and was reminded of your attempt to associate those supporting “East Timor” with what you called “Muslim savagery”. Yes, it would be nice to see you be civil and refrain from NPA's. Please discuss the issue at hand. It does not require framing within any political, ethnic or religious grudges you may have. --Merbabu (talk) 04:35, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Support. For reasons provided by Kauffner (above). danielkueh (talk) 18:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. It is unfortunate that we have to do Côte d'Ivoire (maybe) and Iran (certainly), but in this case we don't have to move yet. Srnec (talk) 23:38, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Comment The Economist is one of the sources listed in the above table, but at least in recent usage it seems to have been using Timor-Leste (e.g., http://www.economist.com/node/21554255 ). It is also generally the case that when a country announces a name change, and there is no significant internal opposition to the change (e.g., Burma/Myanmar), by and large the world comes to accept the new usage. For instance, our article is at Côte d'Ivoire, not Ivory Coast. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 18:12, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- For Google News, I get 18,100 mentions of "Timor-Leste" in the last month, 41,900 for "East Timor." That's 30 percent usage for "Timor Leste." Insights shows a 25 percent usage for "Timor Leste" as a search term in the U.S., 57 percent worldwide. No diacritic has a usage rate anywhere near that high, but we usually put them in the title anyway. The Economist has been using "Timor-Leste" for several years now. The "East Timor" hits that show up are usually ten years old, compare east-timor site:www.economist.com to timor-leste site:www.economist.com. Kauffner (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Support. For reasons provided by Kauffner (above). danielkueh (talk) 18:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. It is unfortunate that we have to do Côte d'Ivoire (maybe) and Iran (certainly), but in this case we don't have to move yet. Srnec (talk) 23:38, 4 June 2012 (UTC)Kauffner (talk) 00:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
- Support. For reasons provided by Kauffner (above). danielkueh (talk) 18:21, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. It is unfortunate that we have to do Côte d'Ivoire (maybe) and Iran (certainly), but in this case we don't have to move yet. Srnec (talk) 23:38, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Iran? — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 00:07, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose per Merbabu and AjaxSmack. --BDD (talk) 18:56, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose My own subjective personal judgement is that East Timor is how most people who have heard of it think of it, I think a lot of people will not have heard of Timor Leste, or at least think about it if they saw it in writing. PatGallacher (talk) 20:24, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
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