Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)

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Looking for anyone who objects to the last poll

I will be looking for anyone who responded to the first poll and feels their contribution was tainted. —Wknight94 (talk) 01:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's not keep doggedly looking for reasons not to do the poll. I favor doing one, as I've stated, so that we can get this absurdly divisive issue behind us. I never even bothered to vote in the last one, given how screwed up it was early on and how the "discussion" deteriorated. And for all of Ned Scott's lengthy analysis about who voted when and with what version of the poll, it kind of proves the opposite point from what he intended. It's impossible for anyone outside the fray to follow, so the whole thing is tainted. Clean poll, clean start, hopefully an early end to this issue. Please. And please, no more posting "you've got to be kidding" messages on my talk page; I'm just arguing for a way to get this silly thing resolved, and I'm not even taking a stance. PKtm 02:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• It seems like everyone's who's involved in the first poll has been notified. So we can stop all the speculative analysis of the last poll and see what everyone who voted in it actually has to say. I responed to the first poll and have no objections to the last poll. --`/aksha 02:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't notice where people from the first poll were notified. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I notified those who "votes" could have been misappropriated. Otherwise active people who would have known what was going on were excluded. While I can appreciate the whole "notify everyone" ideal, Wiknight, I didn't find it pratical for my purposes. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 02:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to qualify it with whose "votes" could have been misappropriated. I'm trying to remove all appearance of impropriety and give every support a chance to reverse them. (Completely at random, Percy Snoodle was definitely not contacted.) —Wknight94 (talk) 02:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't actually matter if anyone was confused by the poll since the poll isn't being used to determine anything. Jay32183 02:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"I didn't notice where people from the first poll were notified" <<<i was actually referring to you leaving "Tainted poll question" messages on people's talk pages. I assumed all those people were the ones who voted in the first poll. --`/aksha 02:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I mean I don't see where they were notified before I just did 15 minutes ago. That's why I did it. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• My vote was not "tainted". It stands as "Don't disambiguate needlessly." --BlueSquadronRaven 03:08, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
• NO taint for me, either. Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 03:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted a direct and extremely offensive personal attack in the above post. As I've noted, this has gotten unconscionably ugly, and everyone who read that attack, not to mention any admin who is participating in this travesty, should be ashamed of himself for not having deleted it already and not having taken some action against the poster for such a clear violation of WP precepts. I'm disgusted. -- PKtm 04:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

He has been warned. —Wknight94 (talk) 05:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It's just a little friendly flirtation, guys. Lighten up! Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 05:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• "When there is no risk of confusion, do not disambiguate". I voted accordingly... when there is no other subject using the (TV episode) name, there is "no risk of confusion" -- therefore do not disambiguate. No taint. --Serge 03:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Same as the old poll. Don't disambiguate needlessly. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 03:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• I have stated my view frequently on this page: avoid unnecessary or preemptive disambiguation. This is in accordance both with general Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and with what I believe to be the previously established consensus on this page. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 03:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• I don't feel tainted. (Oh dear, that could be worded better.) Izhmal (User page | User talk page) 04:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• I voted my say already. Asking me to come back, read the new material and change my vote because, as I read it, I must've been illiterate to vote as I did, is insulting. This was a simple poll, I'm smart enough to understand it, and I believe that everyone else was smart enough to 'get it' as well. Now the 'losers' are opposing it on any grounds they can. This entire issue is sore losers making a mess of wikipedia by abusing the 'constantly changing nature' in the hopes that sooner or later they'll 'Survivor' it. outwit, outlast, outbore. I know that some here will say 'you're incivil'. I say, I'm smart enough to read before voting in a poll. ThuranX 04:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• My point of view was suitably recognised on the old poll. No need to go over it again unless there is something new to say. -- Chuq 04:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• My vote was correctly counted; my only objection to the first poll (which I stated within the discussion) was that within the numerous changes, the meaning of the original votes was temporarily lost, but was shortly fixed to the original meaning. If clarification of my vote is somehow needed, it was disambiguate only when necessary, and when necessary, use the show name only, unless that too is ambiguous, in which case also add "episode." Shannernanner 06:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to have wasted your time. We're trying to get a new poll going, but someone jumped in and invited people back to restate their opinions, but before we'd actually agreed on wording for the new poll. Once we do have poll wording worked out, which wording everyone agrees with, we'll re-open a formal poll, and invite not just the people who have already participated, but post announcements about the poll in other relevant places as well. --Elonka 06:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this was done to show you that a new poll is completely unnecessary. There's only one question that needs to be answered, and you have failed to answer it everytime I have asked. Why is "insert tv series name here" special? If it isn't special then the well reasoned existing guideline should be followed. All Wikipedia articles should be at the simplest name possible. You have never said anything that would remotely contradict that. You have stated it would be easier for you and that things would be "prettier", but no contradiction. There is only one way to determine a "common sense exception" and that is by a special case. WikiProjects are a unifying thing, they are not supposed to contradict Wikipedia guidelines. Now please, stop grasping at straws by complaining about a poll that doesn't actually matter. Jay32183 06:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, everyone who might feel their opinion has not been considered was contacted; everyone. How can you say there will be a poll when it's been opposed so viamently? Who are you representing when everyone who wants to respond is responding, and not with a call for a new poll? Also, please don't tell people they're wasting their time. Like we keep saying, polling is not the be-all/end-all decider. This, right here, is what's good. Simple posts and expressions of opinions. Wikipedia is not a democracy. We're not some hokey fictional bureaucracy swayed by petitions and signitures. Elonka, this section is a show of real consensus. You said you'd accept a clear, clean consensus when you find one. Here it is. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 08:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Ace, multiple people have called for a new poll (me, Englishrose, PKtm, Josiah Rowe, PeregrineFisher, MatthewFenton, just off the top of my head). I may be the most vocal of the group, but I am definitely not alone. I am also quite confident of getting new voices into the discussion, once we have a "real" poll opened, rather than the twisted one which ran before. Why are you so against a new poll? Are you genuinely afraid that the result would be different, if it were held in a clean and unbiased manner? I would think that if everyone's so sure of their consensus, they'd agree to a new poll, just to put the matter to rest. But instead, this keeps getting dragged out. Let's agree on wording, open a clean poll, and move forward! --Elonka 09:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Josiah Rowe's latest comment on this issue is "I'm still willing to support another poll if the need for it is shown, but based on the early results from Wknight94's canvassing, I'm not sure that it is". I'd hardly consider that as "calling for a new poll". --`/aksha 09:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

We have lots and lots of proof that the last poll was completely valid. We have the confirms here, and what I presented at #Who voted under what poll format. What we are doing is not deciding anything, but rather, we're trying to convince you that this is what actually happened. We don't actually have to do this, we can all leave the discussion as it is. Consensus has been reached, and now we're just being nice in taking the time in trying to help you to understand that. Personally, I think you know darn well that the poll is valid, and you know that you "lost". You need to let this go. -- Ned Scott 09:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There is no consensus at all, live with it. You'll find there's plenty of evidence showing the poll was invalid. Matthew Fenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 09:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

What evidence? Only three (3) editors made a vote while the poll wasn't in it's final form and did not list a supporting vote for "disambig only when necessary". We have people coming here and confirming their votes. I believe only two (2) editors feel the poll was invalid. -- Ned Scott 09:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• For the record, my votes were correctly counted and represented in the poll. -- Ned Scott 06:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• "I will be looking for anyone who responded to the first poll and feels their contribution was tainted." - Yes, mine definitely was. The previous poll was a farce with the people who "voted" to suffix only when needed running around moulding the discussion to there liking and also archiving to hide the support for suffix etcetera. Matthew Fenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 09:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
  • This doesn't make any sense. Your vote was oppose. Are you saying that your vote was tainted and you actually meant to support? —Wknight94 (talk) 12:11, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You do realize you are basically saying that you did not oppose "disambig only when necessary"? That is what we are asking. We are directly asking you, Matthew Fenton, did you or did you not vote "oppose" to "disambig only when necessary"? -- Ned Scott 09:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

That's not what wknight is asking at all, it clearly reads:

"I will be looking for anyone who responded to the first poll and feels their contribution was tainted."

So please do not twist my words Ned, also just to clarify for you: I strongly opposed the notion of suffixing only when necessary. - and to clarify further: I strongly support leaving a suffix if a WikiProject determines a consensus to keep the suffix, and/or a series of articles is started with a suffix,a nd if an editor wishes to remove said suffix then they require _consensus_ on a case-by-case basis.. Matthew Fenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 10:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Then how was your oppose vote tainted? Was it not counted? (actually, I believe I was the one who restored it after someone else removed it). Your vote was not tainted, it was counted, it was represented in full. If you want to play word games, go ahead, but we both know what is being asked here, and that is to confirm if a vote was or was not properly counted. -- Ned Scott 11:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and, WikiProject Lost has no such consensus in the first place. We've pointed that out too. -- Ned Scott 11:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Ned, are you afraid of running a clean poll? Are you afraid that the answer might be different than what you're claiming as consensus? --Elonka 10:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think he's afraid of the same thing I'm afraid of - repeating this over and over until the project-oriented people run out of technicalities or until they get their own way. The point of this section is to show that the first poll was already "clean". —Wknight94 (talk) 12:18, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I am not afraid of a new poll, but to give in to your irrational demands is not something we should do. -- Ned Scott 11:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, Elonka, you haven't stated your own personal stand on this yet. IIRC, you voted oppose for always disambiguating. Do you feel your vote got mis-represented on the last poll? --`/aksha 13:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't contact her. This section was an attempt to prove Elonka's assertion that the previous poll was dirty and that people who voted Support were misled by the "tainted poll". If Support people showed up agreeing with Elonka that they were misled by a compromised poll, I would have immediately reversed myself and supported a new poll. That does not appear to be happening though. Contacting Oppose votes and having them show up and say they wanted to change to Support would have actually proven the opposite of Elonka's assertion so I didn't bother doing that. That can also be done if you want to make the first poll weigh even further in the direction of supporting the current guideline though. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• I've been asked to put a note here on whether my view has changed; I still say "disambiguate only when necessary". Percy Snoodle 10:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
• I have also been asked to put a note here. And I still say use disambiguation only when necessary and don't use the word "episode" unless it might be confusing not to. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 13:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• It should be obvious from the reactions above that most people weren't misled by the allegedly-tainted poll. It also appears that most people are in agreement on the original guideline, that we should only disambiguate when necessary. Note that I didn't say "all people", but thankfully we don't need unanimity to have a consensus. I really see no reason to drag this out further by starting a new poll, since we can already tell what the outcome would be. And note that we aren't generally in the habit of polling on guidelines in the first place. (Radiant) 15:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Radiant, I have enormous respect for your opinion, because I've seen how hard you work in guideline-related discussions around Wikipedia. But, I must respectfully disagree with you, and hope you'll hear me out as to why we should do a new poll. I have been wanting to invite other people into this discussion. However, when the old poll started becoming a mess, I refrained from extending invitations, because things were getting too chaotic. I would still like to invite some others, but this discussion is such a tangle right now, I'm not even sure where to point people to, when I send an invite. So, what I would like to do, is start a clean poll, with wording that everyone agrees on ahead of time. Then, I (and anyone else) can issue our invitations and point editors at the new poll, where people can weigh in with a single comment, or, if they want, participate more fully in the discussion. If consensus is clear, it'll show up with the poll. Alternatively, I could just start issuing my invitations now, but without a clear "collection point", I'm honestly concerned that it will just further add to the chaos, not to mention discouraging people from participation because of the wall of text. I'm also seeing a disturbing trend here of some editors deliberately adding "nonsense" posts, just as a way of making the page even longer and harder to read. That's another reason that I'd like a clean poll, where anyone who comes in can quickly see a summary of the situation and offer their own opinion. As I've said before, I promise I will abide by the consensus of a clean poll. I'm not trying to drag this out with poll after poll after poll, all I want is one clean and unambiguous version. I think that this is a reasonable thing to ask, and I hope that you'll agree. --Elonka 18:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• The interesting thing about most of Elonka's posts here is if you read them out of context, ignore everything else she and others have said previously, what she says seems to make sense. However, if you take the time to keep up, and when you put it in context... In this case, Elonka has come up with yet another new excuse for a new poll: I refrained from extending invitations, because things were getting chaotic. However, Elonka (and others) did extend invitations to the previous poll. Further, she didn't mention this as a reason to explain why we need another poll until now. I, for one, am not buying it. This is very disruptive. --Serge 18:53, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, if you're referring to me when you say "editors deliberately adding "nonsense" posts, just as a way of making the page even longer and harder to read", you're mischaracterizing my intentions. I have added humorous posts recently, but their only purpose was to lighten the mood and decrease tension on the page. I'm sorry if they've failed to do so in your case. I have no intention of making this page, or this process, any longer and more difficult than it already is. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The only good reason for inviting more people to a poll is because not enough showed up to adequately represent the community. But 33 people weighed in with support or oppose. Ask any poll expert and that's a very impressive sampling set - especially on Wikipedia. If you'll agree that no vote stacking was involved, the result of nearly 4-to-1 in support should be more than enough for consensus. Without vote stacking, your continuing to invite people would likely just increase the number of opinions but not change the ratio. It would be 36-10 or 43-12 or something. What's the difference? How is that helping anything? It would make it even louder in here, that's for sure - but wouldn't change the outcome. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:12, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

• Elonka, if you don't mind I have a few questions, because I have some difficulty understanding your position here. First, why do you believe a poll would be necessary to begin with to establish consensus here? Second, why do you believe the first poll is tainted, considering in this section nobody agrees with that position (except for Fenton who seems to be arguing that his oppose-vote was misinterpreted as an oppose-vote)? And third, why do you believe more people need to be invited, considering the issue was listed on RFC (and, IIRC, the village pump as well)? (Radiant) 12:47, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
• My opinion is still Disambiguate only when necessary, regardless of the wording of the poll. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 17:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

A musical view of the situation...

Wknight94's choice of words in his message sparked a thought that led to something I'm sure I'll regret. But anyway, with apologies to Ed Cobb, Soft Cell, and everyone who reads this page, here it is:

Sometimes I feel I've got to
Run away I've got to
Get away
From the arguments we have on this damn page
The thoughts I've shared
Seem to go nowhere
And we've lost all senses
For we snip and snipe, we can't find consensus

(chorus)
Once I ran to you (I ran)
Now I'll run from you
This tainted poll you've given
I give you all my mind can give you
Take my views and that's not nearly all!
Oh... tainted poll
Tainted poll

Now I know I've got to
Run away I've got to
Get away
The agreement just isn't happening
It's a god damn shame
To name every ep the same
And disambiguate
When the TV names, they don't have no mate

(chorus)
Once I ran to you (I ran)
Now I'll run from you
This tainted poll you've given
I give you all my mind can give you
Take my views and that's not nearly all!
Oh... tainted poll
Tainted poll

Don't vote twice please
Can't we all just shoot the breeze
I've argued so but Elonka says no
Now I'm going to pack my things and go
Tainted poll, tainted poll
Don't vote baby, tainted poll
Tainted poll...

(repeat to fade)

—The preceding unsigned comment song was added by Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 14:39, 15 November 2006.

I vote for Josiah Rowe as the support act for Wikimania 2007! -- Chuq 04:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

This can become the first spoken sung article talk page --`/aksha 04:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Some much needed humor! :D -- Ned Scott 06:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

LOST

Based on the earlier comment that a majority of Lost episodes need to be disambiguated, I checked the list. Currently there are 13 episodes without disambiguation, and 38 with (Lost). Seven of the 38 don't seem to require disamb, so they could be switched over, making 20 without and 31 with. That's 62%, a majority but not anywhere close to almost all of them. This also means that more of the episodes are following the TV naming guideline than aren't - is there currently some problem or confusion with the current state? I haven't seen it. Getting Lost to follow the guideline would require moving seven of the 51 articles - what disruption would occur if this were to happen? I was also unable to find where the lost wikiproject decided that all episode names for the show should be predisambiguated, could someone point me to that decision? --Milo H Minderbinder 16:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

What's actually being proposed?

I was going to add this to the discussion above, but thought a new section might be cleaner. I've been following this discussion almost since it began, although I haven't commented much. One thing I'm unclear about it is what action is actually being debated? I understand the opinions on both sides, but I'm not sure anymore what's being suggested - a change to the guidelines? Or are people wanting to begin removing disambiguation from the titles of episode articles for Star Trek or Lost (for example), and are waiting until a clearer consensus is reached? There's an awful lot of talk going on, but I'm not clear what would actually happen should some kind of consensus be achieved. --Brian Olsen 20:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The most recent issue as I see it is that we already ran a poll until it ran dry. Then Elonka - who was on the "short side" (Oppose) of the consensus - alleged that the poll was modified too often during its running and has been poisoned. I've asked folks on the Support side to make a trip back and affirm their votes or confirm Elonka's suspicion that they were misrepresented. So far, no one has said they were misrepresented. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I understand that...so is the whole discussion now simply about whether or not to have another poll? What course of action is actually being discussed? So many people seem to feel the matter is settled - so have they already begun moving episode articles to remove the disambiguation from the title? Or would that be a breach of etiquette when a few editors are still so opposed, even though they seem to be in the minority? --Brian Olsen 21:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There was a proposal to change this guideline, but it seems to have failed. So consensus is to keep it as is, and the process of renaming articles not following the guideline has already started, and I hope it continues. I don't see the absence of unanimous agreement as reason to not enforce a guideline. Most people agree that the decision has been made, but those in the minority keep protesting that it didn't happen. --Milo H Minderbinder 21:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) what Milo said. Even if I'm supposedly too biased, there are two other admins here that seem to be of the same opinion (at least for the question of whether the poll should be re-started). Enough already... —Wknight94 (talk) 22:07, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have no idea. I've been in this discussion for quite a while now and i'm afraid i also fail to see what the problem at hand is. We did agree to keep the guildline as it is. We follow guildlines by default, so we've been moving articles. Despite all the "omg it's disruptive", there's so far no complaints or evidence of damage done.

As far as i can see, the point we didn't agree on was whether wikiprojects can decide to 'overturn' the guildline if their project agrees to do things differently. The problem is non-existence, since there exists no wikiprojects who have 'agreement' to overturn the guildline. So i have absolutely no idea what the problem is.

As far as i see, some people are holding a slight grudge and refusing to admit their proposal to change the policy failed to gain support, and are now wanting to go through the entire process all over again. --`/aksha 23:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

From my point of view (and that of several other editors as well), the poll and "consensus-building" were not conducted in a clean manner, and the poll needs to be re-run. As for what's being discussed, what I'm working on is coming up with wording for the new poll that everyone agrees with, so that we can open the poll, post notices about it in appropriate places around Wikipedia, let the poll run for a week or so, and see where we stand. If there's a clear consensus to just enforce WP:DAB, then the guideline here probably doesn't need any changes, and we set up taskforces to go through and move the thousands of articles with suffixes, to non-suffix versions. If there's a consensus to allow exceptions in the case of WikiProjects and other good faith discussions on specific series, then we work on adding "exception" wording to the guideline, and do some minor "cleanup" moving in a few series to make them internally consistent. If we're deadlocked, then we look into some other form of dispute resolution, such as taking this to Arbitration.

As for preferred poll wording, here's my own recommendation right now:

== Poll on article naming ==

On a careful review of current Wikipedia practices, it is clear that in situations where a television series has individual episodes, that in many cases (a few thousand articles), the editors who created the episode articles chose to use a consistent naming system, where a suffix of (<seriesname>) or (<seriesname> episode) was added to each article title, even when not specifically required by disambiguation rules. (Examples: Deep Space Nine, Smallville, Stargate)

As this practice has come to light, some editors have noted that this process creates names that are inconsistent with normal Wikipedia disambiguation guidelines, and as such, these editors believe that those thousands of articles with suffixes, that did not specifically require suffixes for disambiguation, should be moved to non-suffix versions in order to be consistent with Wikipedia naming conventions. (Examples: South Park, Babylon 5)

Other editors feel that there's nothing wrong with the practice of consistent suffixes, and that it has various advantages, such as consistency in linking, making category listings look cleaner, and providing helpful context in watchlists. They believe that the Naming Conventions guideline should be updated to indicate that this "allow consistent suffixes" method should be included as an acceptable alternative for article naming. Or in other words, per Wikipedia:Guideline, "Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception"

Other editors feel that the "consistent suffix" method should be generally discouraged, but that it may be warranted as an exception in certain situations. For example, some series have cases where the majority of their episodes already require a suffix for disambiguation reasons, so it might make sense to also add a suffix to the minority of episodes that don't have it, for consistency's sake (Category:Lost episodes). Other series have gone through multiple title changes (such as Star Trek), and those editors have chosen to use a consistent (<abbreviation> episode) system, such as "(TOS episode)" "(DS9 episode)", etc. (see: Category:Star Trek episodes)

=== Poll ===

====Question #1====

When is it appropriate for TV series episode articles to use a suffix (such as (<seriesname> episode)? Should this be reserved strictly for cases where another article already exists by that name (i.e., for disambiguation), or is it acceptable for some series to always use regular suffixes in order to provide for a consistent naming system?" As with an AfD, each editor can answer with an optional one word answer, plus a sentence or two explaining their opinion, such as: "Always - all series should use this system," "Never - suffixes should only be used when absolutely required for disambiguation", "Sometimes - it should be taken on a case by case basis, depending on the needs of that particular series."

==== Question #2====

In cases where a suffix is to be used, is it better to use (<series>), (<series> episode), or to allow other methods (such as the Star Trek abbreviation system), as long as it is consistent throughout that series?

I'd appreciate outside viewpoints as to whether or not the above is a clear summary, with clear and neutral wording on the poll questions. Thanks. --Elonka 23:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think this wording is clear enough, and I'd like to (again) encourage that we proceed, so that we can put this matter behind us. I, for one, held off from even voting in the previous "polls", given that the text kept getting changed, so I'd appreciate a chance to indicate my thoughts in this structured format. I can't see that it hurts anyone or anything for us to try to get some closure here, hopefully without the name-calling and even obscenities that have been bandied about on this very minor issue. -- PKtm 23:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It looks very good to me , I'd also like to echo that we proceed with this. Matthew Fenton (talk · contribs · count · email) 23:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Those sound pretty clear to me and eliminate confusion. As I've said before it's important for everyone to be happy with it. However, the main thing is that those planning to vote are happy. I'd suggest those unhappy with the wording make their feelings known now in order to avoid the same problems as before. Englishrose 23:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"From my point of view (and that of several other editors as well), the poll and "consensus-building" were not conducted in a clean manner" <<<i'd like to point out, that of all the people who voted on the last poll, so far no one has expressed the fact that the poll mis-represented their opinion. (see Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(television)#Looking_for_anyone_who_objects_to_the_last_poll) The poll happened, there was no consensus to change the policy. Pages will get moved. Just deal with it and stop trying to stir up more non-existent problems. --`/aksha 23:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I think having a new poll about the matter is a fantastic idea. I'm not too strong on the subject personally, but I love polls, and public opinoin is always changing. Polls help keep the most recent opinion. Besides, why ruin the hard work of editors without a LONG fair discussion? Oggleboppiter 00:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you just say that this discussion hasn't been long enough? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 00:38, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I think they did. Izhmal (User page | User talk page) 00:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I believe that was sarcasm. Never translates well in text. Jay32183 00:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

On whose part? Ogg? I'd hope so. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 01:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

That was my assumption. Jay32183 01:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

It's still not fucking funny. You'd have to be fricken nuts or retarded to even suggest that this discussion's been too short. We've got archives and kb counts that say volumes otherwise. "Longer", he says.. Izzy Dot (talk | contribs) 01:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, IF (big) there is to be a new poll (which I oppose due to lack of evidence that any votes were interpreted incorrectly in the last poll), the wording should include new proposed wording for the guideline, not a philosophical question. One option should be status quo - the existing guidelines are fine. The other options should have revised wording suggestions for the guidelines, and then we can vote "preferred" (2 points), "acceptable" (1 point), or "unacceptable" (-1 points). Each voter can vote for only one preferred option and vote "acceptable" or "unacceptable" for all the rest. I would suggest having the poll take place in two parts. In the first part, which lasts a few days, maybe a week, adding new options and revising existing ones is encouraged. There is no limit to the number of options. In the second part, which starts perhaps after there are no additions/revisions for 24 hours, a typical vote, assuming there are 10 options to choose from, might look like this:

preferred: 3; acceptable: 1,5,6,9a. unacceptable: 2,4,7,8,10, 9b. --~~~~

May the most preferred wording win! --Serge 00:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I am very much against any further polling because the discussion showed that the information used by those wanting to change the guideline was factually incorrect and based entirely on misunderstanding Wikipedia guidelines. No amount of polling or arguing will ever change that. Jay32183 00:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the reasons for having a new poll are mostly unfounded. However, one reason to have it is so far unrefuted: to end this ridiculous discussion. While having a new poll does not guarantee the end of this ridiculous discussion, if it continues after the new poll there would clearly be sufficent grounds for disciplinary action. Otherwise, there is no end in sight. In the mean time, the broken episode articles are being fixed... --Serge 00:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Serge that the best reason for having a poll is to get this behind us. I think his proposed numerical system might be confusing, though. Perhaps a less detailed version of what Elonka has suggested would be best. I think, however, that her introduction gives too much unnecessary detail and is biased towards her position. Something like this might be more neutral:

===Poll on article naming===

The general practice for article naming on Wikipedia is for articles to be titled with the simplest form that is not ambiguous with other titles. Parenthetical suffixes are usually used for disambiguation. However, many pages for television episodes have been created with parenthetical suffixes, even though their titles are not ambiguous. Some television program WikiProjects (notably WikiProject Star Trek) have recommended the use of suffixes such as (<seriesname>) or (<seriesname> episode) as a general practice; others, such as WikiProject Doctor Who have followed the general guidelines.

Some editors feel that the general disambiguation guidelines should be followed on all television episode articles. Others believe that all television episode articles should have suffixes appended, whether their titles are ambiguous or not. Still others believe that the editors of a particular program should be able to determine what pattern works best for that show.

Elonka's versions of the questions are OK, I suppose, but I'd rather have an introductory paragraph that gives equal weight to all sides of the argument. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 01:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Why would any intro be needed? If you proposed a poll that simply listed the different choices for what you would like the guideline to be, you could explain yourself in the Discussion section below - I might even go along with it:

List of proposed guidelines - please support one:

1. "Disambiguate only when necessary unless WikiProject consensus is to use a different guideline, etc., etc."
2. "blah blah blah..."
3. Leave the guideline the way it currently is

Discussion:

...

That's it. Simple. No room for ambiguity, no room for tampering allegations, etc., etc. If this were done in the first place, maybe we could all be about our lives by now. Instead, everything is phrased in this bizarre could-be-interpreted-14-ways-speak that just leads to chaos.

That being said, I just realized that Josiah Rowe is also an admin - so that makes four admins and counting who think this has gone on way way way too long. —Wknight94 (talk) 01:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Josiah, overall I like your wording. I'd like to add a couple phrases though. I've included an update here, with my additions in italics:

===Poll on article naming===

The general practice for article naming on Wikipedia is for articles to be titled with the simplest form that is not ambiguous with other titles. Parenthetical suffixes are usually used for disambiguation. However, on a recent review of the situation, it was discovered that many thousands of pages for television episodes have been created with parenthetical suffixes, even though their titles are not ambiguous. Some television program WikiProjects (notably WikiProject Star Trek and WikiProject Stargate) have recommended the use of suffixes such as (<seriesname>) or (<seriesname> episode) as a general practice; others, such as WikiProject Doctor Who have followed the general guidelines.

Some editors feel that the general disambiguation guidelines should be followed on all television episode articles, and that the thousands of existing suffix articles are "wrong" and need fixing. Others believe that all television episode articles should have suffixes appended, whether their titles are ambiguous or not. Still others believe that the editors of a particular program, like with a WikiProject, should be able to determine what pattern works best for that show.

How's that? --Elonka 02:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why we need to mention "thousands of articles". Has it even been established that there are thousands of articles that would need renaming? We know that many series weren't in compliance, but that doesn't necessarily mean that a preponderance of episode articles for each series would need renaming. Also, remember that many series (such as British television series) have only a handful of episodes. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Guys, I'd just like to say here and now that I hope you don't give in to Elonka. Doesn't it set a bad example? "Hey, kids, whine and whine, you'll get your way!" Y'know? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 02:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You know what, Ace? That's simply ugly, and personal, and uncalled for. Not only you need to review WP:NPA, but so do all of the admins participating here (as Wknight has enumerated for us). Because frankly, every single one of them should have been jumping up and down on you for such blatant incivility. -- PKtm 02:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You know, Izzy Dot is one thing, and I'd agree with you in his case, but this just too much. "Anyone who disagrees with us is incivil. Don't attack me!" Fine, fine. I'll remove myself. Cute tactics, BTW. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 02:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Everyone here is getting pretty aggrevated. Jumping up and down at all is a bad idea that will lead to more fighting. And don't complain about the admins reactions when it's only been 18 minutes since the post you're complaining about went up. Jay32183 02:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Particularly when there have been so many comments that every time the admin tries to post he gets an edit conflict! :^)

These were some of the things I tried to post in the last 20 minutes or so:

(to ACS, edit conflict with PKtm) But it's not just Elonka. She's by far the most vocal supporter of a new poll, but other editors such as Matthew Fenton and PKtm have also expressed dissatisfaction. Sure, there's a bit of "the squeaky wheel gets the grease", but I'm sufficiently confident in the existing consensus that I don't think another poll will change anything — except that it may finally end this interminable debate. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

(to PKtm, edit conflict with ACS) PKtm, please stop lecturing us on admin duties. Each Wikipedian has an equal duty to make his or her own judgment on what behavior is unacceptable. I have, for example, rebuked Izzy Dot for his incivil comments. However, I don't think that ACS's comment here was particularly out of line. His description of Elonka's ... persistent argumentation ... is blunt and less than diplomatic, but hardly a personal attack in my judgment. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

In a weeks-long discussion that has descended so frequently into the uncivil, with nary a word expressed by the admins involved about the need to stay civil per WP guidelines, I will exercise my right to lecture, thank you. Having you actually defend ACS's patently uncivil comment, accusing another editor of "whine and whine, you'll get your way" (which is hardly the worst of the language that's been hurled around) deserved a lecture on adminship responsibilities, in my view. If you don't view that (and other similar instances) as a personal attack "in your judgment", I feel that your judgment is skewed. -- PKtm 19:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to confirm that I haven't changed my mind since the last poll that I voted in. --theDemonHog 02:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, i for one, am starting to agree with this "I'd just like to say here and now that I hope you don't give in to Elonka. Doesn't it set a bad example?". A poll is NOT needed. End of story. The issue was resolved through a good LONG, and with the exception of Izzy's comments, CIVIL discussion. The problem is being fixed. I find this entire 'delay tactics' as just being immature. But of course, someone who holds civility and good faith in such high regard, and aspires to be an administrator (and therefore a role-model to other editors) couldn't possibly be doing this on purpose.

So, Elonka, if you have any geunine problems with what's happening here, go and take this up to mediation, or arb, or whereever people go to settle disputes. Here, we've got a job to do - that is, get a lot of articles moved. You're insistence of there being a problem when non exists is not helping, at all. --`/aksha 08:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Nada..

Recently I've seen wknight jumping around getting agitated because no one will submit to his "humble self" - I'd just like to remind you that (just like an AfD debate, etcetera) your opinions and decisions mean nada in this discussion as your opinion has been biased and you are personally involved. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs • count • email) 08:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

uhh...let me remind you that this is NOT an article. NPOV goes as far as articles. It dosen't mean people can't have an opinion on talk pages.

especially when we're takling about a talk page of a policy?

HIs opinions in this discussion mean as much as everyone else's opinions. Personally involved? Well of course, who bothers keeping participation in a policy discussion that they're not involved in?

I dont know what kind of history you and wknight have, but i find this kind of "signal out one person and make them look bad" tactic really quite....no, i think i'll stop there before i get a chorus of incivility and NPA complaints. --`/aksha 08:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

If you take a minute to read the discussion you will notice he/and primarily him is attempting to proclaim the decision of this conversation. You will also notice I never even mentioned NPOV in articles so I don't know what your on about :-\ MatthewFenton (talk • contribs • count • email) 08:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, i know. I have been reading this discussion for several weeks now and frankly speaking very sick of it.

"attempting to proclaim the decision of this conversation" is exactly what you did here ("definitly a consensus for the suffix"). Regardless of whether trying to "proclaim the decision of this conversation" is good or bad, there's little reason for you to single someone out and critisize their opinions so personally.

You ask for civility from other people (here), but yet don't seem to be very willing in returning it. You know, matthew, a very good way to get civility and respect from other people is to demonstrate some yourself. When you target someone with comments like this, it really doesn't hurt to think what they'll make of it before you post it.

And for the record, many people (myself included) have expressed the belief that this discussion has long since reached the decision of disambiguating only when needed. As you would have probably gathered, seeing all the people who have been helping in moving pages. --`/aksha 09:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And the comment about NPOV was in response to "opinion has been biased". NPOV is the policy that governs neutrality, something which does not apply to people's opinions on talk pages. I believe you are well aware of that. --`/aksha 09:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

What the hell is this thread supposed to be about? Picking fights one by one now? —Wknight94 (talk) 11:59, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

No. You trying to decide when the conversation is over when it isn't. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs • count • email) 12:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh come on. Are you bringing up something from a week ago where I was trying to keep some peace? This whole section is completely misguided and uncalled for. For shame. —Wknight94 (talk) 13:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

You said just today: "That being said, I just realized that Josiah Rowe is also an admin - so that makes four admins and counting who think this has gone on way way way too long. —Wknight94 (talk) 01:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)" — That is what I am talking about, you believing you can call an end to consensus building discussion. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs • count • email) 13:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice job misinterpreting what I'm trying to say. It was just an update to a prior comment of mine where I said myself and two other admins agreed that there is no need for another poll - it turns out myself and three other admins agree. "Elonka has singled me out as being a biased admin - so what about the other three?" - is basically what I'm trying to say. Don't get paranoid and think I'm trying to get heavy handed. I may be leaving that up to a mediator or ArbComm before long though. —Wknight94 (talk) 13:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

• Guys, can we please drop this particular section and get back to discussing the naming convention, as opposed to the editors involved? Thanks. (Radiant) 14:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Gladly. Shouldn't have been started in the first place, *grumble grumble*... —Wknight94 (talk) 14:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Why there is not yet a consensus

For the record, this discussion has not been going on for "several weeks", that is a distortion of elapsed time, which several people in this discussion seem to be having since they are posting multiple times per day.

To be clear: the RfC started on October 30 [1], along with a "poll" that was changed rapidly and drastically over the next few days [2], along with a continuation of non-consensus page moves being done in (what I regard as) a highly disruptive manner [3]. A few editors, a couple of which are almost certainly sockpuppets (and one of which, Izzy Dot, is currently blocked), posted rapidly and repeatedly in a very uncivil manner, attacking anyone who disagreed with them, reworking the "poll" to insert their own bias, and harassing other editors outside of this discussion [4]. "Debate" tactics generally involved belittling the opinions of other editors, ridicule, and complaining that if someone hadn't posted within hours, or that if they hadn't personally responded to every single editor's concern, that "they obviously didn't care anymore."[5][6] [7] Any editor who disagreed, was immediately and incorrectly attacked as being "a lone voice."

Over strong objections, a few editors (most notably Wknight94 and Ned Scott, whose incredibly disruptive tactics at the Lost WikiProject resulted in the guidelines page there being protected from editing) started declaring that the debate was "concluded" on November 3rd/4th (remember, the RfC only started on October 30). Much of the debate since that time has involved repeated calls for a new and clean poll,[8][9] while other editors are effectively saying, "We've already made our decision, stop whining." And, as before, the more disruptive editors are posting multiple times per day, making the discussion even harder to follow. When other editors wandered in from other WikiProjects and voiced a concern [10], they were immediately overwhelmed with the "multiple posters", who were incorrectly informing these new voices that the decision had already been made. Any editors with good faith objections were either ignored, accused of bad faith, or labeled as "trolls," "whiners", or "sore losers."[11] And since some of the good faith editors were only posting once every couple days, in comparison to the attackers who were posting multiple times per day, the good faith objections were rapidly drowned out.

We need to give time, and provide a structure, for other editors than just the "multiple posters per day" to offer their opinion. To repeat: I, and several other editors, want a new and clean poll. Not a poll "to confirm the consensus that's already been made," but a clean, "Let's listen to all opinions with an open mind" discussion, which, per Wikipedia:Consensus is how these issues are supposed to be resolved on Wikipedia. We have good faith objections to the current guideline, and they need to be addressed and debated, not just steamrollered in a few days with a claim of a supermajority "vote". --Elonka 18:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Consensus isn't needed to move pages. Until there's a consensus to change this guideline, the guideline stays. Wikipedia can't turn into the wild west every time someone says they're disputing a guideline. Trying to characterize page moves bringing articles into compliance with the guidline as "highly disruptive" seems like empty rhetoric. I'm glad people are moving pages, and I hope it continues. So far, the moves haven't caused any problems I've seen, and have even demonstrated that both the process and the result are painless. Exactly what "disruptive" result has these moves caused? --Milo H Minderbinder 19:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I will point out that the Guideline did include an exception, for several months, until it was removed by Ned Scott, without consensus for said removal [12] (and he's been causing similar disruption at the Lost WikiProject). I kept replacing it[13][14], he kept removing it [15][16]. I offered to modify the wording [17], and he removed that too, now claiming that consensus was needed to replace what he'd been removing in the first place [18]. Rather than continue to edit war, I moved the discussion to talk. Then the November 3rd "declaration of a finished discussion" occurred. I tried adding the {{disputedpolicy}} template to the page, which was again removed by Ned Scott [19]. Bottom line, I don't believe that it's appropriate to use "that's what the guideline says" as a reason for page moves, when the guideline has clearly been tampered with. --Elonka 20:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I know I said I would excuse myself, but someone's gotta ask; tell me again, what, exactly, is a "good faith objection"? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 19:55, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Once again, if Elonka's words are read out of context, they seem to make sense. If there is an argument to be made against the guideline as it currently stands, please, somebody, state it. What's the problem with the guideline? What problems are caused by adhering to it? Yes, we know some editors have named articles contrary to the guideline. But what's the reason? Consistency within that group of articles? What about consistency within Wikipedia? Why should minor/local consistency trump global/general consistency? Where's the argument? Where is the reasonable basis to oppose the current guideline? Absent such argument, there is nothing to discuss or have a "clean vote" on. --Serge 21:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, I think you have a distorted view of the debate thus far. I am not a sock puppet. I do not post multiple times a day. I follow the debate when I can and add my two cents when necessary. Usually, I see people like Josiah Rowe and others being quite civil and bringing up very valid and relevant arguments, so mostly I don't bother increasing the volume of the debate. From the other side, I see you repeatedly shirk the real substantive questions and focus instead on what I and others believe to be irrelevant issues of procedure. In many ways, it's a lot like a fillibuster. If you want to gain some support for your procedural ideas, I would suggest first addressing the many counter-arguments put to you already. -Anþony 22:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I feel like I've grown up a little bit in this discussion. Originally, I'd be really bothered by what Elonka just said, but now it just seems funny. To Ace: Yeah, I keep wondering that too. "Good faith" is not a label you can just apply to anything and make it "good" or better than it really is. For example: "Why would you put me in jail for my good faith killing?", "These good faith insects sure are biting a lot today.", "I have been washing your car in good faith." -- Ned Scott 00:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've been content to watch this debate unfold without making any comments, but while I don't necessarily agree with Elonka's position, I don't think she's misusing the term "good faith". Why can't an objection be made in good faith, i.e. with good intentions? If one objects to something and one's intentions(however right or wrong, misguided or not they may be) are to improve Wikipedia, why shouldn't one call it a "good faith objection"? Whether or not one's intentions are actually good is a valid point for debate, but let's not let a perfectly reasonable term get caught in the crossfire... -- Fru1tbat 01:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Ned. Though Elonka seemed to have ignored me,—I may never know for certain.—I thought it'd be safer/best to ask a question and wait for a response rather than make an accusation. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 01:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Look, Fruity, assuming good faith on the part of another when you have little reason to belkeve otherwise is fine. No one's dissing "good faith". However, the uses by Elonka and her associates are misleading. Just take anyway the "faith" for second. What would you think of her just calling things "good"? A "good objection," or a "good exception". That's essentially what we're talking about. Now, you can slap on "faith" or use some other niceity/qualifier, but what have you really got? A proper use of a term or someone's attempt to reinforce their own arguments by playing on the acceptence and appreciate people—you, for example—give/have to such terms? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 01:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It also makes the suggestion that our comments, concerns, and actions have not been with good intentions, which is clearly not true. For example, I can fairly say that I removed the Star Trek example in good faith. -- Ned Scott 02:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It does appear that "good faith" was being thrown around inappropriately, and I know this is a heated debate, but the comment I was responding to ("what, exactly, is a 'good faith objection'?") read as attacking the actual term itself, not the context or the intent... -- Fru1tbat 02:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

If a claim of good faith was all that's needed to make an action right/acceptable, then Willy on Wheels would be an admin by now for all his "good faith moves". Personally, i've never had much faith in arguments based on assumptions of faith. --`/aksha 06:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• In case a definition is really needed here, a good-faith objection to a proposal would be like "I object because I believe this will harm the encyclopedia so-and-so", whereas a bad-faith objection would be more like "I object because of a personal dislike of the one who proposed it", or nominating a proposal for deletion solely because you disagree with it. (Radiant) 09:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Query for Elonka

Elonka, if you don't mind I have a few questions, because I have some difficulty understanding your position here. First, why do you believe a poll would be necessary to begin with to establish consensus here? Second, why do you believe the first poll is tainted, considering a few sections up many people said their vote wasn't misrepresented, and nobody appears to agree with your position (except for Fenton who seems to be arguing that his oppose-vote was misinterpreted as an oppose-vote)? And third, why do you believe more people need to be invited, considering the issue was listed on RFC and, IIRC, the village pump?

Also, I note that in the section above, many of the diffs you cite do not actually provide evidence for your allegations. For instance, the page link for "harassing other editors" points to your own accusation thereof, not to evidence of harassment. The diff you cite for "trolls, whiners and sore losers" contains none of those terms. The page with guidelines for Lost was not protected for "incredibly disruptive behavior" but because of an edit war between you and Nedscott (I've unprotected it now since that was several weeks ago). It seems there have been multiple edit wars between the two of you, and I would strongly urge both of you to stop doing that in the future, and instead take it to the talk page or get a third opinion. I would be willing to investigate claims of "highly disruptive behavior", "attacking anyone who disagrees" and sockpuppetry, but I haven't seen evidence thereof (this matter should probably be taken to my talk page or WP:PAIN).

Now the reason that I'm here is because you asked for neutral parties to look into this problem. It would seem to me that you're overreacting a bit, and that this whole issue is less a big deal than you make it out to be. It's not like we're about to delete episode capsules or anything. It appears the issue boils down to "there is general agreement" vs. "we must have a poll", which appears mostly to be about semantics and procedure, rather than encyclopedic content. (Radiant) 09:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The reason I am suggesting a poll, is because I would like to provide a venue where other "occasional" editors can participate and have their voices heard in a more evenly-weighted fashion. However, I am open to other suggestions of how to achieve this goal, which will allow opinions of those who only post once or twice a week, to be seen and considered in an equal fashion with the opinions of those who post many times per day.

I am also suggesting a poll, because with a very busy talkpage (as this one obviously is), it would be very difficult to invite in other editors and say, "Hey, come participate," and then have them faced with 200K of text. A poll or survey format provides a quick and easy summary method to show where people stand, and an easy way for other people to weigh in. The first poll was tainted by having its wording constantly changed ([20] to see what it looked like at the beginning), and when I (and others) saw what a mess it was, we refrained from inviting further people to the discussion. For example, to my knowledge, notice of the poll was never listed at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes. Before mentioning it there myself though, what I (and others) want is to come up with new poll wording, that we are in agreement with ahead of time. Then we'll open the poll, post about it in the places where it needs to be announced, and let the poll run in a clean way. Which means leaving the wording alone after it opens, and not running it for 72 hours and then proclaiming it "done", but actually giving time for multiple viewpoints to weigh in.

To be clear, I am not suggesting a poll as a vote, or a way to prove a "majority". I am suggesting it as a way to ensure that when we invite other editors in, we're clear on what it is that we're inviting them in to comment on, and that we have a clear format in which their comments can be seen.

As for the diffs you wanted, the only reason I didn't include them, is because it's a time-consuming process to gather them. But I am working on a set now, which I'll provide either here or on your talkpage, as appropriate.

Also, to answer those who keep asking me to re-state what my position is in this discussion: I personally recommend that we change the wording of the Naming Conventions guideline to reflect actual practice. My recommended wording change is:

There is some controversy about the exact way to title episode articles, but the general consensus is that in most cases, articles about individual episodes should use the title of the episode itself, unless that title is already in use, in which case the episode article should include (<seriesname> episode) as a disambiguating suffix.

In some cases, certain series may use slightly different systems, such as to use a disambiguating suffix of simply (<seriesname>) or even to include a consistent suffix on all episodes of a particular series, regardless of whether or not they are strictly required by disambiguation rules. Advantages to this system are that linked lists of episodes use a consistent titling scheme, and it becomes easier to link between episodes if many of them (or even the majority) already had suffixes. Other advantages are that it is convenient to include series context with an article's title, categories look more consistent, and specific subject areas are easier to see in editor watchlists. Disadvantages are that there may be some confusion if a suffix which normally implies disambiguation, is used on an article that did not need disambiguating; and the additional unneeded suffix results in a longer article title than necessary. So, these "exception" types of methods remain controversial, and are generally discouraged (see the talk page for more information).

I think that the above wording would address most people's concerns, except for those who are adamant that the guideline should be enforced as a "no exceptions" policy. It would, however support the cleanup being done of many of the episode categories where there was no clear discussion about naming for that series, while still allowing those WikiProjects that have gone to the trouble of debating titles (such as Star Trek, Stargate, and Lost), to keep their systems. --Elonka 22:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• But occasional editors can still edit a talk page and add a line on whether they agree to a proposal. In fact, this would (in general) even be easier if there wasn't a poll, because if it's discussion they can state their opinion, and if there's a poll they have to think about which pigeonhole they fit best in.
• Yes, there is a lengthy debate here (overdue for archiving, by the way), but it can all be summarized in a few lines. I do not believe this discussion has had a lack of participants. Sure, it wasn't advertised everywhere, but it was mentioned on the talk pages of the "exception" WikiProjects, and RFC, and the village pump. I note there's no outrage from any of the three projects you mention; the only concern they appear to have is that they want "episode (seriesname)" to be a redirect. They know what's going on and they don't seem to mind.
• I agree that the earlier poll wasn't handled too well (incidentally, this is one of the reasons why we usually don't use polls for such issues), but the participants have declared earlier on this page that they have not been misinterpreted - so it appears the poll mess has been sorted out already.
• I believe several people in this discussion object to your wording on grounds of it being overly long. Note that guidelines, by definition, can already have exceptions, and naming conventions are guidelines rather than policy. So one needn't explicitly state "this guideline has exceptions" on a guideline page.
• You said yourself you didn't want a poll to prove a majority. What, then, do you want a poll for? It seems that you allege that there are people who should have commented here but didn't, because either they were intimidated by the page length, or they were unaware of the page despite heavy advertising, and that these alleged people would have an opinion that differs significantly from that of the active editors here. Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you. Now this is an interesting hypothesis, but it seems a bit unlikely unless you have some evidence of it.
• And finally, I remain willing to investigate allegations of harassment, incivility, etc, but as this seems to be a personal issue it would be less appropriate here, so I would suggest my talk page for that.
• Yours, (Radiant) 23:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Radiant, there are a few people in this discussion who are currently using a "no exceptions" philosophy to push through hundreds and hundreds of page moves, against clear opposition. In my opinion, the "exception" clause most definitely does need to be included in the guideline, so that it is clear what the consensus is as to what is and isn't an exception. For example, do we have consensus that WikiProjects can agree on an exception? There most definitely is "outrage" from the Lost WikiProject about this naming issue, and if you'll scroll up a bit, you'll see that the Stargate WikiProject rep has concerns as well. As for running a new poll, there have been multiple calls for one, since November 1st (the day after the old one was started, since its wording was changing so much). A new and cleanly-run poll will address a lot of concerns, plus it will provide a centralized collection point for anyone new that wants to enter this discussion. Again: Multiple people have requested a poll, and many others, though not specifically requesting a new poll, have indicated they will not oppose if one is desired.[21][22] [23][24][25][26]. I think that the most constructive use of our time at this point, instead of continuing to debate about whether or not there should even be a poll, would instead be to work on wording that we are all in agreement with. --Elonka 00:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

As usual, Elonka's links do not support her claims. None of those references call for a new vote. Hardly any even express agreement to have one. Most of Radiant's questions remain unanswered. But, out of context, her post seems to make sense. This is taking rationalization to an art form. --Serge 00:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Serge is correct: one notable example is Elonka's citation of this as Argash supporting a new poll, while this later edit clearly shows that Argash later chose to support Cburnett's compromise (that is, using redirects to cover the "consistency" argument). Most of the other edits were made during the poll, and the confusion that did exist then has been resolved. No one has said that their vote was misrepresented in the final presentation of the poll. I agree that the acrimony of the conversation is probably a deterrent to new editors' participation, but I would hazard that Elonka's stalling tactics (and other editors' understandable responses to them) are more to blame for that than the poll irregularities, which frankly are fairly minor in comparison to the stalwart refusal of a handful of editors to accept the views of the supermajority. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• (edconf) Sorry, Elonka, but those diffs just don't indicate what you say they do. Of the six diffs, one is your own; two others (Chuq and Ned Scott) have explicitly objected to a new poll. Argash says the poll was premature and Pktm finds it objectionable, but neither argues for a new poll, and Shannernanner doesn't argue either way. So your alleged support for a new poll is slim at best - and I note you haven't answered my question about what you really expect to happen. Also, I see no indication of the outrage you mention (links please?); it is even mentioned above that WP:LOST has no consensus on the matter. Furthermore, it appears that you were involved in changing the meaning of the first poll. It would appear that you are filibustering. (Radiant) 00:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Radiant, I am disappointed in you that you would make that kind of accusation. Further, I am bewildered why you would ask for justification of WikiProject "outrage", when you yourself saw the edit wars going on at the Lost WikiProject. As for the call for the new poll, here are some more diffs:

• Matthewfenton: "proceed with this" [27]
• Englishrose: "the poll does need to be redone" [28]
• PeregrineFisher: "let's redo it" [29]
• PKtm: "I think this wording is clear enough, and I'd like to (again) encourage that we proceed" [30]
• Argash: Start the poll over [31]
• Shannemanner: Create a new format that's agreed upon ahead of time: [32]
• Ned Scott: If anyone feels strongly enough, then we should restart the whole thing. [33]
• Milo H Minderbinder: "If you insist, at least let the wording be agreed upon" [34][35]
• Josiah Rowe [36]
• Oggleboppiter "I think having a new poll is a fantastic idea" [37]
• Wknight94: "If you want to start a new poll with new questions, go ahead" [38]

Plus of course me, but I won't bother linking a diff, hopefully this will be sufficient: "Let's have a new poll." --Elonka 00:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think this is one situation were common practice holds no weight. For one, it's not uncommon for a single editor to start 20, 30, or even 40 + episode articles. Not only that, but a single List of episodes article can dictate the naming when people create via redlinks. It's also human nature to do things like consistent naming for the sake of consistency alone. It's one of those things that can easily spread, and fast. This alone only tells us that it's easy to start articles on Wikipedia, not that there was any considerable thought behind the process. It's just one of those no-big-deal things, where we can easily change the direction that people follow because I doubt anyone cares that much in the first place. It also shows why bad examples, or examples without context or explanation, are so harmful. Because naming isn't a "big deal" and people are quick to do it, the guidelines shouldn't be suggesting that something is a good idea when it's not.

Also, there was no "Stargate rep", but yes a participant from the project did have some initial concerns that were later put to rest. Not only that, but I myself am a participant of WikiProject Stargate, so it can't be said that such few responses are representations at all, support or oppose. And the outrage from the Lost WikiProject is not from the Lost WikiProject, but from the same three opposing editors found here. You can't just say that one or two editors represent a whole project, especially when WikiProjects are points of collaboration first and groups of people second. There are many editors who do not wish to list themselves in a project, but still contribute to the articles and discussions on article talk pages, that have just as much of a say about what happens with this stuff as people who do list themselves in WikiProjects. WikiProjects are not a way to establish authority or ownership.

If I dare be so bold, but I believe the opposition is more about a power struggle than actually helping to improve a guideline. I'd much rather we take this farther up the chain of dispute resolution than play these silly games anymore.

To make it very very clear, I asked on November 1st if we should restart, and that I preferred not to restart the poll as I didn't fell it was necessary. The context of my words were that if we were to start over we should do it then and there. Do not misread my words. -- Ned Scott 01:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, Wknight94's comment does not support the poll Elonka is proposing. I'm a bit bothered at how often the statements of other people are being used for misleading comments like this. -- Ned Scott 04:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• Elonka, I did see those edit wars at WP:LOST, but I do not consider a simple edit war between you and Ned Scott to be an "outrage". Since several people from WP:LOST ended up here, I see no reason to believe the WikiProject is underrepresented here.
• I believe you are misinterpreting several of the comments here; for instance, Josiah Rowe says he doesn't think a poll is necessary, and obviously Ned Scott is not in support of a new poll. Shannernanner does not call for a new poll but for stability in the then-present one. Some comments, like Milo's, appear to be made in exasperation ("if you absolutely insist on a new poll...") which should not be interpreted as support for one. And some comments, like Oggleboppiter's, appear to be based on the idea that Wikipedia must use polls to decide things, which is a fallacy.
• Finally, I note that you still haven't answered my question of what you expect to happen with a new poll. But it seems that your concise summary at the bottom of this page has largely obviated the need for one. (Radiant) 09:22, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Answer this question

This is directed at those who do not want to follow the standard "disambiguate only when necessary". So far it has been ignored every time I have asked this question. What makes the articles on "Lost" or "Star Trek" special compared to other TV series on Wikipedia? What makes a TV episode article special compared to any other Wikipedia article? If these questions cannot not be answered, then you have no point. You cannot call for a "common sense exception" when no special case exists. Please also note that the question is not "What makes the editors special?" The fact that the editors have handled the articles differently does not make the article special. Jay32183 20:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Excellent question. Of course, no one is answering it. I've posted a slightly modified version at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (settlements)#Answer this question where we have a similar situation, except there those who favor predisambiguation are in the majority. --Serge 18:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Completely ignored again. This is the only question that matters and those calling for an exception won't answer it. Therefore, this cannot be anything but a filibuster. Jay32183 06:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I think I've already answered this several places, but to repeat: I believe that WikiProjects should have the right to decide on guidelines for their sphere of influence. This includes naming issues. I also believe that it makes sense that if a series already has the majority of its episodes with suffixes, to add the suffixes to the minority of other episodes, to keep everything consistent. --Elonka 10:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

And i think it's been explained in many places by many people why WikiProjects don't have special power.

Not to mention, the fact that there currently exists no WikiProjects who wish to exercise such a right, should it exist (which it currently doesn't.) --`/aksha 13:08, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

You have not addressed what makes the shows themselves different, unique, or somehow exempt from the guideline as it is. If the WikiProjects have a valid and well-reasoned argument for their decision, they should be able to present it here and have it ratified by the wider consensus. Otherwise, the series should adhere to the guidelines created for that purpose. -Anþony 02:29, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

That didn't answer my question at all. In fact, you answered the question I specifically said was irrelevant. Jay32183 03:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

WikiProjects are points of collaboration, like "super talk pages", and are not their own closed system. I've said this many times in other discussions, WikiProjects are points of collaboration first and groups of people second. Also, by just editing an article related to the scope of a WikiProject, that technically makes that person apart of that collaborative effort, which is all the WikiProject is. It's just a form of organization, NOT a form of government or authority. Being in a WikiProject doesn't give one any more or less of a right to have a say in those articles. It would be a very bad thing for WikiProjects to have such authority. That being said, a WikiProject can be used to organize discussion to form consensus, but that would be that discussion that caused the change, with the WikiProject being the tool to reach that consensus. (also, as others have said, WP:LOST has not had such a discussion where it formed it's own consensus on this issue, in the first place). -- Ned Scott 03:52, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• The main argument against the suggestion that WikiProjects should have jurisdiction over the articles in their scope, is the fact that the entire concept of "jurisdiction" doesn't exist on Wikipedia, since everyone can edit everything and WP:NOT a bureaucracy. This may not be the most practical approach but it is the most wiki. (Radiant) 16:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

• My opinion is that if a WikiProject wants to come up with slightly different ways of handling the articles within their sphere of influence, and they are not violating any policies in doing so (note I'm saying policies, not guidelines), then I see no problem with that. Policies of course should be enforced, but guidelines are recommendations. And as Wikipedia:Guideline says, Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. For example, at the Lost WikiProject, it was decided to limit the number and type of External links that can be on an episode article. Further, it was decided that plot summaries should be limited to a certain number of words. There's also a strict rule among the Lost articles about the inclusion of speculative information, even if it's sourced. These kinds of things make sense for the Lost articles, even though they are not in strict adherence with Wikipedia's "global" guidelines. It would be a colossal waste of time if every single one of these guidelines needed to be debated both at the Lost level, and at the global level, especially because it wouldn't make sense to do that. For example, if the limit on External Links came up at a global level, of course there would be a hue and cry about limiting those links, because it wouldn't make sense to put strict limits on them in all articles, it's just something that the Lost system needs, which is why that kind of thing is best debated at the lowest level necessary (in this case, the WikiProject), rather than in the global guideline arena. A key benefit of a WikiProject, is to bring together the editors that are most familiar with a specific set of subject matter, so that they can coordinate work on the articles related to that subject, and come up with a consistent look and feel and set of rules. --Elonka 02:23, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• "Colossal waste of time" is a great way to describe this situation you've created, Elonka. As far as I'm concerned, this whole thing is a perfect example of why guidelines should be followed. If Lost followed the guidelines, there's no need to debate this at either level. At all. When little groups think they need an exception, lots of time is wasted on something that would have no benefit if it passed. I'd like to see all TV shows follow the guideline - we can either have this discussion once at the top level, or have this discussion many many many times at the low level (and waste orders of magnitude more time). And for the record, I'm fine with exceptions being made to the guidelines for common sense reasons. But I have yet to hear a common sense reason why Lost "needs" different naming from every other TV show. Nor why only those familiar with Lost are capable of participating in a discussion about how Lost episodes should be named. I think exceptions can and should be made, just not because a small group of editors doesn't feel like following them. --Milo H Minderbinder 02:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, if those aspects of the Lost WikiProject's guidelines came up in a broader context, I would hope that editors from the WikiProject would be invited to explain their reasoning. And if they did, that reasoning would be evaluated on its own merits, and any exceptions to general Wikipedia guidelines could be evaluated on their own merits. If the reasoning presented is strong enough, I'm sure it would convince a consensus of non-WikiProject Wikipedians that there was a good case for making that exception.

But if that larger group of Wikipedians were to reject the arguments of the WikiProject — or if the WikiProject members failed to explain their reasoning — I would hope and expect that the lesser guideline (and WikiProject guidelines are lesser than Wikipedia-wide guidelines) would be overturned. You're fond of quoting the sentence "Guidelines are not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception" from Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines. But the judgement of what constitutes "common sense" and when "the occasional exception" is to be taken is up to a general consensus of Wikipedians. Such a consensus has opposed the exception in this case.

WikiProjects are merely a focus for improvement of articles in specific areas. They are not infallible. When the general community suggests that a WikiProject has erred in its guidelines, it is appropriate for the WikiProject to engage the community at large, and for both sides to listen to each other. Despite your protestations to the contrary (and the occasional descent of this debate into impatience and incivility), the argument for explicitly including exceptions has been listened to, and has been rejected. Later tonight I think I'll try to put together some suggestions for how we can go forward from here, since the current situation is obviously unsatisfactory for all parties. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Disputed tag

Sorry for another section, guys, but this is important. TEMPT (The Elonka/Matthew/Pktm trio) claim the policy is disputed. This, I will gladly have a vote on. You can't make a claim or use a tag on the mainpage without valid reasoning. This has, as they say, gone too far and is "the last straw". Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 19:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

We don't need WP:TV-NC becoming an edit war. As long as there are around 30 edits per day to this talk page, how can we call it not disputed? I'll defer to someone else if a better reasoning is available (like the policy the tag points to is inactive) but let's not end up with 3RR threats and blocks over a tag which seems pretty accurate to me. —Wknight94 (talk) 20:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

disputed

1. Argued; not certain, agreed upon, or accepted.

A definition of disputed. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs • count • email) 20:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Now, you see, that right there would upset me. Still, I'll try to take the high road, like Ned. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 20:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, for purposes of the tag, policy dispute is defined at Wikipedia:Policy dispute. I'm not convinced that this really meets that definition, but I don't really see what that matters. After all, what does the disputed tag really mean? The guideline still stands while this discussion is going on. --Milo H Minderbinder 21:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• Er, guys, voting on whether or not there is a dispute is oxymoronic. Let's not do that. The tag doesn't in fact do any harm for now. If we are agreed that this page is consensual, then a handful dissenters do not a dispute make; while we are still debating about this page, it is not unreasonable to claim a dispute exists. Let's just leave it in place for a few days. (Radiant) 22:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
  • The tag is just a way to jam a foot in the door as it continues to close on this issue, and nothing more. It's painfully clear that the two or three editors who are disputing will continue to be in dispute, regardless of consensus. Just because they disagree doesn't mean they get to throw a fit about this. -- Ned Scott 00:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

By the sheer quantity of reverts, it's clear that there's a dispute. The tag should stay. --Elonka 01:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

There is a dispute, but it's not on the guideline (see below). -- Ned Scott 01:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It is my understanding that the guideline itself is not in dispute, but how we interpret exceptions to guidelines, which is not even commented on the guideline page. The dispute is taking place on the talk page, and the only change to the project page would be the inclusion of an example of exception. Why are we tagging the project page with a dispute tag? I know it's very tempting to "give in" right now, but this is no different from the other tactics that have been used. Lets not let ourselves be played like this. -- Ned Scott 01:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You guys are a riot. Here's a whole section disputing whether there is a dispute, thereby proving that there is a dispute. LOL. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

The guideline isn't in dispute. I believe Elonka has even said that. Those who are opposing wish to have an "exception" to the guideline, and then have that (or some other example) exception listed. If they feel it's an exception, then wouldn't that mean that the actual guideline itself is not in dispute? There is a related dispute to this guideline in how we apply it and how we apply exemptions from it. -- Ned Scott 03:42, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think i'm overdoing it by saying if just one single editor stopped claiming there was a dispute, this entire issue would be silent in a day. --`/aksha 02:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• I have protected the page in response to the edit war about whether or not the dispute exists. (Radiant) 08:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

No disambiguation unless necessary

It's confusing and it's long standing practise. Wikipedia doesn't standardise for the sake of it, per arb-com, and it doesn't confuse readers. We only disambiguate when we have to. Steve block Talk 23:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you meant "not confusing," Steve. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 01:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Strawpoll: Is Elonka filibustering?

Poll closed. [39]. This is an inappropriate topic for a straw poll, and is making the issue too personal. Personal issues don't belong on a guideline talk page. (Radiant) 08:38, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Bravo, Radiant! Thank you. -- PKtm 14:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Radiant. While some people have gotten frustrated with Elonka's comments, I am grateful that someone is arguing for a more open, fair, and consistentl y transparant process. I have never taken part in this particular debate, and haven't been editing LOST articles for very long, but I just spent the last hour reading through this entire discussion and there is just way too much meanness and accusations. Elonka's statements have often been misconstrued and insulted in a hostile and unconstructive way. This whole conversation was completely unconstructive. I agree completely with Elonka's statement that this kind of nonsense scares the hell out of newer editors, it was a long time before I started editing LOST pages, because LOST folx can get so hateful about things. I agree with her that there should be a new, clean, well-advertised discussion since this seems to be a hot issue. It will provide closure and nobody can cry foul play. I was unaware of the discussion when it happened, I would like a place to give my opinion now that I know about this. Riverbend 16:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

A good place to give your opinion is regarding the move request for Lost articles just below. --Serge 16:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Programs needing to be moved

Just reposting the list for everyone's convience since i'm about to achieve the top half of this talk page. --`/aksha 03:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• stargate - Wikipedia:WikiProject Stargate (Project informed on 10/11)done
  
• lost - Wikipedia:WikiProject Lost just waiting for speedy deletion requests to *come through, otherwise done
  
• star trek - Wikipedia:WikiProject Star Trek
  
• buffy and angel - Wikipedia:WikiProject Buffyverse (Project informed on 10/11)
  
• 4400 - Wikipedia:WikiProject The 4400
  
• some mortal combat series - Wikipedia:WikiProject Mortal Kombat (done)
  
• Big Love (done)
  
• Desperate Housewives (done)
  
• Charmed(done)
  
• Firefly (TV series)(false alarm)
  
• Six Feet Under(done)
  
• Battlestar Galactica (fixed now)
  
• List of Battlestar Galactica (re-imagined series) episodes (done)
  
• Dark Angel (TV series)(false alarm)
  
• Forever Knight(done)
  
• Harsh Realm(done)
  
• LEXX(done)
  
• The Outer Limits (old series) done
  
• The Outer Limits (new series)done
  
• Roswell (TV series) Verified for episodes which have articles - most episodes do not. --Serge 00:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  
• Sliders (done)
  
• The X-Files (done)
  
• Torchwood (false alarm, the disambiguation was actually needed on torchwood episodes)
  
• Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2003 TV series)
  
• Frasier
  
• Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1987 TV series)
  
• InuYasha
  
• House (TV series) done
  
• That '70s Show admin assitance needed for Hyde's Father (That '70s Show episode) otherwise done
  
• M*A*S*H
  
• Naruto seems to have an issue over what the actual titles should be for episodes that haven't aired in North America (done)
  
• The O.C.
  
• The Wire (TV series)
  
• Blackadder
  
• Fullmetal Alchemist done
  
• My Name Is Earl
  
• Prison Break
  
• Ben 10
  
• The Prisoner
  
• The Sopranosdone
  
• X-Mendone
  
• Code Lyokodone
  
• Planetes(done)
  
• The Pretender (TV series)false alarm
  
• Sex and the Citydone
  
• CSI: Crime Scene Investigation(done)
  
• Strangers with Candydone
  
• Entourage (TV series) (done) --Serge 00:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
  
• Langt fra Las Vegas(done)
  
• 8 Simple Rulesfalse alarm
  
• Eureka (TV series)(done)
  
• Supernatural (TV series)(done)
  
• Oz (TV series)(done)
  
• Ōban Star-Racers(done)
  
• Weeds (TV series)(done)
  
• Law & Order: Criminal Intent (done)
  
• Jericho (TV series)(done)

Moving lost articles

Lost articles are being moved, just like the episode articles for all the series listed above.

Most of the pages have already been moved. For the ones which haven't, i had them tagged for speedy deletion. But some of them were overturned by other editors who stated they could find no consensus for the move.

I've listed these at Request Moves, but decided this was the most relevant place to place the discussion. (note, request move tags have been placed on the three articles, but the "discuss" link on them points here)

Requested move

• Whatever the Case May Be (Lost) → Whatever the Case May Be
• Live Together, Die Alone (Lost) → Live Together, Die Alone
• The Glass Ballerina (Lost) → The Glass Ballerina

Reason - From this guildline page "For an article created about a single episode, add the series name in parentheses only if there are other articles by the same name" and by "Disambiguation in Wikipedia and other Wikimedia Foundation projects is the process of resolving ambiguity" (from WP:D). all lost episodes currently follow these existing guildlines except for these three.

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Support, per WP:NC-TV and the discussion there. -- Ned Scott 03:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support - per guidelines. Nothing makes lost more special than any other TV series, especially when the rest of the lost episodes already follow naming conventions. --`/aksha 03:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support - per nom --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 06:17, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support; however, if there is substantial objection I see no harm in delaying this, particularly if we're going to seek mediation here. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:21, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. Count me as someone with a "substantial objection". The Lost articles have already been debated at the Lost WikiProject. Further, the majority of articles in the series already have suffixes anyway, so it makes sense to have suffixes on the remaining minority of articles, to keep everything consistent. --Elonka 07:11, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

This goes against what the nom claims, that these three are the only three with suffixes. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 07:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

No, that's not what i claimed. But Elonka's statement is indeed misleading. The current guildline says to "disambiguate ONLY when needed". This is the guildlines that all lost articles, except for these three, follow. These three do not follow the guideline because they are disambiguated when there is absolutely no need for the disambiguation. I linked to the category of lost articles in my nomination so people could click on it and see/judge for themselves. --`/aksha 07:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

"The Lost articles have already been debated at the Lost WikiProject." As a participant at WikiProject Lost, I find that statement rather.. odd. The only debate that took place was the one that lead into this current debate. The mediation on Lost episode articles never talked about episode titles. So where was this discussion? Was there reasonable rational for this explanation? How many people were involved in the discussion? -- Ned Scott 07:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

And my question still goes unanswered. #Answer this question Jay32183 07:32, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose — Why would we go against a consensus and make the articles un-unified? There is a consensus to append a suffix to Lost articles, pending any consensus to remove the suffix it remains. MatthewFenton (talk • contribs • count • email) 11:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Please point out where this consensus has been established; I have so far been unable to find it. (Radiant) 11:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Indeed, Matthew, you have claimed this many times. Please provide a link to the discussion that resulted in this consensus. Otherwise, we seem to have a consensus here to stick to the guildline (Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(television)#Summary_of_discussion) --`/aksha 12:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Support: Per my 20 zillion words above. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Per WP:NAME and WP:DAB. --Serge 16:17, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support. The reasons given for an exception to the guideline aren't convincing to me. --Brian Olsen 17:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support per all of my previous comments (somewhere in the archives by now, I imagine). ···日本穣<sup>? · Talk to Nihonjoe</sup> 19:14, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support No reason has been presented that these articles should have an exception. The numerous reasons why editors want exceptions aren't relevant. Jay32183 20:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support Regardless of previous discussions on this page regarding a subset of Wikipedia articles, WP:D is a product of consensus applicable to all Wikipedia articles. --BlueSquadronRaven 03:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Preemptive disambiguation continues to be a Bad Idea. Nohat 05:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong support per naming discussions at Naming conventions. -- Wikipedical 21:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong support - consensus has been reached here to disambiguate only when necessary. Lost does not merit an exception to the guideline. -Anþony 01:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
• Strong support - By my count, only about 60% of Lost article names need disambiguation, so I'm not sold on "might as well DAB them all". And after all this discussion, still nobody has given a reason why Lost is different than any other show (or any other article) and should be disambiguated. I'm also not convinced that a wikiproject has the authority to usurp guidelines that are wikipedia-wide. Lost is a perfect example of why throwing out the naming convention and letting each show decide individually is a terrible idea - instead of finishing this debate and having a final decision and being done, we can have this same discussion repeated for every single individual TV show. So at what point can we move these last three Lost episodes? --Milo H Minderbinder 13:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
  • The articles are listed at Request Moves...which is like...handles moves the way the AfD process handles deletions. I believe this will be open for 5 to 7 days (when it'll be listed at WP:RM), and i'd assume an admin will come at the end and 'close' it by performing the nessasary moves. (Discussions for Requset Moves normally happen on the talk page of the articles involved, but given the recent and ongoing RfC here, i thought it was more appropriate to have the discussion/survey here.) --`/aksha 13:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Add any additional comments

• I wish to point out that "we should keep it the way it is for convenience" is not a valid argument if someone can be found willing to make the change. I note that Elonka and Ned Scott dissent over whether this issue was discussed on WP:LOST. I've found a debate on its "guidelines" page that involves several editors also active here, and does not seem to have the claimed consensus to "always use suffixes". So I would say that yes, it was discussed, but no, it was not concluded. If I'm missing something here, please give me a link. (Radiant) 09:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Mediation anyone?

Great, now we have person A and person B edit warring over what person C said while a mini-edit war is breaking out on the main page over whether the edit war on the talk page is a dispute.

Mediation anyone? —Wknight94 (talk) 04:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if there's anything to "mediate". The actual issue of the episode naming is pretty much complete, and now we're just in an argument trying to convince a small few who are still kicking and screaming. -- Ned Scott 04:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not. There's no problem here to "mediate", it's just one editor deciding there is a problem when none exists. Elonka said before she's not debating the current guildline - her problem is with exceptions. And as i pointed out before, exceptions aren't even a problem - there doesn't even exist a wikiproject or other group who's wanting articles all disambiguated.

It seems at the end, Elonka's problem comes down to the entire lost business. She wants the lost episodes diambiguated. Because...tons of TV series have been moved, none of them have caused problems and she's ignored all of that. Then she and Matthew Fenton noticed lost episodes are also being moved, and starts making a big deal out of it. Including removing speedy tags, proclaiming lack of consensus and controversy, and leaving misleading notes on other editor's talk pages. --`/aksha 04:49, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that mediation might be helpful at this point. Elonka and one or two other editors want a new poll — which I've commented on above — but there's clearly no consensus for that. It's equally clear that Elonka isn't going to yield in her belief that the guideline does not have consensus. Perhaps both sides need to put their opinions aside for a moment, swallow some pride and try mediation. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You've all started a poll about whether Elonka is filibustering (FWIW, a poll with no obvious outcome either way is not particularly helpful, do you think?). Mediation is the anti-filibuster so I'm surprised you're not all signing up. —Wknight94 (talk) 05:38, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't mediation...like...non binding? So it's just a matter of some outside party coming in and trying to sort things out. Radiant's already been doing that - trying hard to calm things down and sort things out as a neutral outsider. I don't see mediation getting us anywhere, apart from blowing this thing even more disproportionarily big. --`/aksha 05:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:RFM is a more formal outlet and seems to have worked well for everyone at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Lost episodes. The problem was they missed this issue. Radiant was being helpful coming here but, in the less official capacity, he can be dismissed and labelled "biased" as Elonka seems to have done with this edit. I won't speak for her but hopefully Elonka would agree that a ruling at WP:RFM would be binding. I know I would. If not, the next step would be WP:RFAR and I don't think anybody wants to go there. I sure as hell don't - I've got much better ways I could spend my time. —Wknight94 (talk) 06:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• For the record, while I'm not an official mediator, I came to this page because of an explicit request (by Elonka) at the village pump that some outsider looks at it. One of the facts of life is that, if one asks for a neutral comment, there is the possibility that the comment may in fact disagree with you.
• Also, I note there is some hostility on both sides - this is perhaps understandable given the length of the discussion and that people may feel tired of their opponents, but I wish both parties would take a step back and take a deep breath and realize that article naming in an encyclopedia isn't the end of the world either way. Cup of tea, anyone? (Radiant) 08:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Summary of discussion

I've spent the last several hours pulling this together. It is a summary of all opinions that have been offered in this debate, since the RfC started on October 30. The only names here are those who actually came in to the debate and said something about the naming issue, even if it was just a few words. If all they did was pop in to say "Support" or "Oppose" (no matter which "side" they were on), I have not included them on this list. If all they did was toss in unrelated comment, such as only about the poll, but not what their stand was on the issue in the poll, I have not included their names here either. When/if sockpuppets are confirmed later, their opinions can be crossed out.

Note: There are a lot of diffs here. If anyone feels that a particular editor's position was misrepresented, feel free to update it, and include a supporting diff. And if I missed anyone, please assume good faith. There's a lot of detail here, and I'm human, and I may have missed something, or gotten a diff tangled up. In such cases, please feel free to add/correct things as necessary. --Elonka 06:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• Ace Class Shadow (talk · contribs) - Only disambiguate when necessary, and then include the year. [40]

• AnemoneProjectors (talk · contribs) - Use disambiguation only when necessary [41]

• Anþony (talk · contribs) - Minimum disambiguation required, no exceptions [42][43]

• Argash (talk · contribs) - Suffix adds needed context to the article, and is the preferred method. Redirects are a fallback position.[44][45][46][47][48]

• BlueSquadronRaven (talk · contribs) - Don't disambiguate needlessly [49]

• Brian Olsen (talk · contribs) - Disambiguate only when necessary [50]

• Cburnett (talk · contribs) - Disambiguate as necessary, but make sure to include lots of redirects[51]

• Chuq (talk · contribs) - Disambiguate only when necessary. All series should use the same format. [52][53]
• Elonka (talk · contribs) - Flexibility.[54] For certain series, suffixes make sense. Let the WikiProjects decide what works best for their own sphere of influence.[55][56]. [57].

• EnsRedShirt (talk · contribs) - All television episodes should use a single unified format, which includes the series name [58][59][60]

• Jay32183 (talk · contribs) - Only disambiguate when necessary. Keep article titles simple. No exceptions. [61][62]. [63]

• JHunterJ (talk · contribs) - disambiguation and article titles are not group mechanisms [64]

• Josiah Rowe (talk · contribs) - Only disambiguate when necessary [65]. Consistency should not be "fetishized". [66][67]. Okay to "vary by series", preferably as a fallback position if no consensus emerges [68][69]Star Trek articles are "broken" [70]

• Khaosworks (talk · contribs) - Don't disambiguate needlessly[71]

• Marky1981 (talk · contribs) - Appending "episode" makes things more clear [72]

• MatthewFenton (talk · contribs) - Suffixes are a case of article naming, not just disambiguation [73]

• Milo H Minderbinder (talk · contribs) - Disambiguate only when necessary [74]
  • Note: Account created October 20, 2006
• Mnemeson (talk · contribs) - Agrees with Marky1981 (append "episode" to articles)

• Ned Scott (talk · contribs) - Disambiguation only when needed. Flexibility is good, but neither Lost nor Star Trek have valid exemptions. [75][76]

• Netoholic (talk · contribs) - Let WikiProjects decide [77]

• Nihonjoe (talk · contribs) - Disambiguate only when necessary [78]

• Nohat (talk · contribs) - Preemptive disambiguation is always a bad idea.[79]

• Percy Snoodle (talk · contribs) - support existing dab rules, which should be consistently applied[80]

• Peregrinefisher (talk · contribs) - Set a threshhold such that if a certain number of articles in a series are already disambiguated, the rest should get suffixes as well [81]

• Radiant! (talk · contribs) - Disambiguate only when necessary. Exceptions are allowed, but do not need to be defined in the guideline. [82]

• Riverbend (talk · contribs) - Consistent suffixes, and a series should be able to choose whether or not to make that exception to the general guidelines [83]

• Rrfayette (talk · contribs) - "Disambiguate only when needed", but allow exceptions [84]

• Serge Issakov (talk · contribs) - Disambiguate only when required [85][86]

• Shannernanner (talk · contribs) - Only use disambiguation when it is needed [87].

• SigmaEpsilon (talk · contribs) - single, unified format for all episode titles. [88]

• Steve block (talk · contribs) - Only disambiguate when necessary [89]

• Tango (talk · contribs) - Stargate articles use suffixes for consistency [90][91][92]

• TobyRush (talk · contribs) - A universal standard is good. Agree with Josiah Rowe and Nohat [93] and supports Cburnett's suggestion [94] Justifiable exceptions to guidelines are allowed, and should be debated by the individual shows involved [95]

• Wikipedical (talk · contribs) - Disambiguate only when necessary.

• Wknight94 (talk · contribs) - Enforce the "disambiguation only when needed" guideline as policy, no exceptions [96][97]

• Yaksha (talk · contribs) - Only disambiguate when necessary, although would possibly consider an exception appropriate if the vast majority of episodes in a series already require it [98]. WikiProjects have no special authority. [99]

Additional comments

If you have any comments about the above summary, please add it in this section. --Elonka 06:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I appear on the list so you must be aware of my comments. So I must ask, why haven't you answered my question clearly marked "Answer this question". It's the only thing that actually matters in resolving this issue. Jay32183 06:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I've also noticed you've misrepresented what I said. I did not say no exceptions ever. I actually pointed out that you have not presented a reason that deserves an exception. Which is why I made the section #Answer this question where I call for you to present a case that would deserve an exception. Basically, exceptions are made on the special needs of the articles not the special needs of the editors. Jay32183 08:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Your summary proves only two things Elonka. The first is that we have had more than enough people participating in this discussion. The second is that there's a clear supermajority to disambiguate only when needed. The only point of concern is exceptions - which some people say to allow and others say to not allow.

But as i've already pointed out, it's a non-existent problem. We have no wikiprojects wanting exceptions. Why bother argueing over a hypothetical then? And i forgot to ask, what is the purpose of this Elonka? --`/aksha 06:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• Elonka, thank you for providing that summary. I'll assume good faith and accept that it's by and large a fair representation of the views stated on this page. The obvious conclusion from this summary is that whether or not we have a true consensus, there is certainly a supermajority in favor of "disambiguate only when necessary". At this point it might be useful to point out this quotation from Wikipedia:Consensus#Consensus vs. supermajority:

In fact WP's standard way of operating is a rather good illustration of what [consensus] does mean: a mixture across the community of those who are largely agreed, some who disagree but 'agree to disagree' without disaffection, those who don't agree but give low priority to the given issue, those who disagree strongly but concede that there is a community view and respect it on that level, some vocal and unreconciled folk, some who operate 'outside the law'. You find out whether you have consensus, if not unanimity, when you try to build on it.

By that definition, this looks like a consensus to me. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 09:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

• I am inclined to agree that this constitutes a consensus (which, by definition, need not be unanimity). More importantly, we have an existing guideline (to disambiguate only when necessary) which can be assumed to have prior consensual support, and there certainly is no consensus to overturn that, or to add Elonka's exception clause. (Radiant) 09:13, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

There are several other people who just added their name next to support or oppose in the first poll without further explanation. I'm not sure why they are being ignored in the list above so I'll provide it here. Please move it up next to the other list. You can qualify it some way if you like but I usually interpret such votes to mean "per everyone above" so I don't see why they should count less:

Support without further explanation:

• Izzy Dot (talk · contribs) Elonka is alleging sockpuppetry but that's unproven. There must be a colorful diff in there somewhere for this user as well.
  • Note: Account created October 21, 2006
• Thedemonhog (talk · contribs)
• ThuranX (talk · contribs)
• Izhmal (talk · contribs)
  • Note: Account created October 21, 2006
• Harris000 (talk · contribs)
• Ac1983fan (talk · contribs)
• GhostStalker (talk · contribs)

Oppose without further explanation:

• EEMeltonIV (talk · contribs)
• Oggleboppiter (talk · contribs)
  • Note: Account created October 26, 2006
    • In further explanation (harhar) I would like to say that I never believed that polls were essential to Wikipedia. But they do help keep it from being a dictatorship of evil. Though I can not speak for him, I think it is in ol' Jimmy's best interest to keep Wikipedia a democracy. Opinions change people, if they didn't then presidents in countries like the US wouldn't swap between Democrats and Republicans every few years. Although conformity rocks, and following the same old rules is a good way to avoid confusion, sometimes it is easier and more efficient to just go with what feels natural. Plus polls are just real cool and stuff. Oh, and I also find it offensive that it says when my account was created. I take that as a personal attack to my opinion. I'd understand if I created this account a week ago and never posted anywhere else, but seriously. Cmon. CMON! Oggleboppiter 02:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
      • There's no need for you to speak for Jimbo: he's spoken on the subject of Wikipedia as a democracy himself. Specifically, he's said, "it's an encyclopedia, not an experiment in democracy." This was subsequently incorporated into policy here. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 02:53, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
        • And consensus on opinion matters is reached by using polls. We aren't areguing about facts. We aren't voting on the truth. What we should do can't be proven. This isn't an 'experiment' of democrazy, but whether anyone likes it or not, polls are democracy in action. If my main man Jimbo didn't want polls, he'd make all of Wikipedia by himself. Also note that all Wiki Policy runs on common sense. Common, which is a fancy word for majority. OR the other way around, I forget. But if the majority of everybodys sense on this opinion says to do it one way, then that is more likely than not the way to do it. And if not, I won't complain one bit if Mr. Wales waltzes in right now to delete this whole argument and do it his way. I understand this is kind of jumbled. But quite frankly, I don't give a damn. I'm here to give my opinion on the matter, not present it on a silver platter. Oggleboppiter 03:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
          • Well, thanks for your opinion — it is appreciated, even if I disagree with it. However, with regard to how things are decided on Wikipedia, it's really not the intention that consensus is determined by polls. See Wikipedia:Consensus#Consensus vs. supermajority, which says, "Precise numbers for "supermajority" are hard to establish, and Wikipedia is not a majoritarian democracy, so simple vote-counting should never be the key part of the interpretation of a debate. However, when supermajority voting is used, it should be seen as a process of 'testing' for consensus, rather than reaching consensus." Consensus is different from majoritarian voting — incidentally, if this were based on majoritarian voting, the discussion would now be over, and the existing guideline would have been "voted in". I happen to think that it has been supported by a consensus of editors participating in this discussion, but that's not a unanimous view, sadly. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for including these. —Wknight94 (talk) 15:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

No exceptions clarification

I'd like to clarify what I meant and what Elonka summarized briefly as "no exceptions". I don't think we should tolerate any exceptions to the guideline in the long run. If there is some show or aticle in general that doesn't fit into the guidelines and strict enforcement would lead to an article or articles of lesser quality, then in the short term it may make sense to ignore the guidelines and do what seems reasonable instead. However, once this hypothetical exception is allowed, it is important to examine the particulars of the situation, form a generalized solution, and establish specific criteria to handle similar cases in the future. In that way, the guideline changes to accomodate the situation and obviates the need for an exception (and for future bickering about the same question over and over).

Applied to our current situation, it has not been shown that there is anything particular or peculiar about Lost, Star Trek, or the others not covered under the current guideline. (#Answer this question) Consequently, if allowed, it would be flatly impossible to form a generalized solution for the guideline. New series would follow one pattern or the other based on the whim of whoever gets there first. It is that sort of long-term exception to which I am opposed, on what you might call "religious grounds". -Anþony 02:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Consensus 101

I realize that there are some very experienced Wikipedians in this discussion, but there are also some new folks, so I wanted to take this opportunity to explain a bit about the Wikipedia consensus process.

There's a common misperception among many new editors that Wikipedia decisions are made by "voting". However, this is not correct. There are surveys, and polls, but it is very common to see non-intuitive results from these surveys. For example, it is often seen that there is a seeming "majority" for a particular position, and yet the final determination is for the minority viewpoint, or even simply "no consensus" (my own nomination for adminship is a case in point, where I received roughly twice as many support as oppose comments (86:47), but the final determination was still "no consensus").

Per Wikipedia:Consensus, the way that things are supposed to work, is that when there is disagreement, those with different points of view engage in "polite discussion and negotiation" about the matter, with the ultimate goal being to find a way to work together to "accurately and appropriately describe the different views on a subject."

Wikipedia:Guideline has similar wording, stating, "People are sometimes tempted to call a vote on a guideline, but this is a bad idea because it polarizes the issue (see Voting is evil for details). Instead, a guideline is made by listening to objections and resolving them."

In the current discussion, the core question seems to be, "What shall the wording be about episode naming at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)?" There are obviously very different opinions on this, as can be seen in the above section entitled "Summary of the discussion".

So how do we proceed at this point? My own recommendation is that some of the more neutral editors among us, or perhaps even someone from outside this discussion, reads the views that were expressed, and tries to come up with guideline wording that does the best job of summarizing those views. It is possible to write a guideline that incorporates multiple views, or references the fact that there are disputes about some aspects of a guideline. For example, see WP:UE#Borderline cases and WP:UE#Disputed issues. Another guideline page that mentions a "contentious" issue is at Wikipedia:Notability, and reading through other guideline pages at Wikipedia will quickly show that there are other controversial issues here and there.

Once we have some suggested guideline additions (perhaps a list of suggested paragraphs?), we could see if there are any that are well-worded enough to get a clear consensus of support, in which case that wording can be incorporated into the Guideline page. If we can't find wording that we all agree with, then we can move on to other techniques as recommended at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution.

In short, when there are editors with strong opposing views on Wikipedia, it is important that everyone comes to the table with a willingness to listen to the "other side", and to make attempts at compromise. Ultimately, whether we are dealing with a guideline page, or an article about a controversial political issue, I believe that the final version ends up stronger when the involved editors do their best to represent all major views of a subject, so that the reader can then make their own informed decision based on the information available. --Elonka 05:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that most of us are neutral in this matter, in that we have nothing personal to gain, nor do we have some sort of ulterior motivation. This is not like a political situation or something with morals or personal feelings, or anything like that. You're asking us to include your view even though it has no support, no logic, nothing. You are saying anyone who doesn't want to support your view is biassed. You've failed at showing there even needs to be a change in the first place. When something is a dumb idea then it should be rejected and not included as some form of compromise. -- Ned Scott 07:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

And I take it by your comments about polls and voting that you no longer wish for another poll? Or is it that you will only say "voting is evil" when the results don't agree with your view? -- Ned Scott 07:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Heh. So you're claiming that your opinion is "neutral," but mine "has no logic" and is "a dumb idea." Ned, go back to WP:CIVIL class please.  :) --Elonka 07:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

That is exactly what I'm claiming. At this point you are practically requiring us to be blunt, so I do not believe this is a civility issue. I'll repeat myself, if that has to be the case "You've failed at showing there even needs to be a change in the first place." -- Ned Scott 07:46, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Elonka, if you wish to discuss anything at all at this point then you must stop ignoring my question. Read #Answer this question. I have directly called for you to explain your position on why these articles deserve an exception, which you have never explained. You have explained why a particular group of editors called for an exception, but that isn't what matters. Please, stop stalling an talk about the one thing that actually matters. Jay32183 08:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• Consensus is not the same as unanimity. (Radiant) 08:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Agreed. But neither does a majority mean consensus. I think that in this case, rather than trying to look at things with a polarized "one side is right, the other side is wrong" position, that this guideline would be better served by trying to find a compromise position which "accurately reflects all views." This seems to be the way that other "contested" guidelines have finally reached consensus, by marking a section as controversial, and moving on. --Elonka 04:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
    • An overwhelming majority does mean consensus. Why would 26 people need to compromise with 7 people? —Wknight94 (talk) 04:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Irony 101

I was looking through Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Lost episodes, trying to find a hint of what Elonka has repeatedly referred to as a consensus of Lost editors to put suffixes on every episode article. I didn't find it; in fact, the only mention of the matter is in this post, as part of a laundry list of recommendations by Elonka. The specific issue of episode article naming is never mentioned again, as far as I can tell. But what I did find was this gem from Elonka [100]:

PKtm, if a majority won't convince you, if polls won't convince you, if good faith discussions won't convince you, please tell me: What would convince you that a consensus exists, and that you are part of an unreconciled minority who refuses to accept it? What proof could I possibly offer you? --Elonka 00:03, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to turn that around, and ask:

Elonka, if a majority won't convince you, if polls won't convince you, if good faith discussions won't convince you, please tell me: What would convince you that a consensus exists, and that you are part of an unreconciled minority who refuses to accept it? What proof could I possibly offer you? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

(I know that Elonka will claim that the conversation here has not been held in good faith. However, she is wrong; although the tone of the discussion has occasionally been less than ideal, the content on offer has consistently been in good faith.)

So, Elonka: what would it take to convince you that you are part of an unreconciled minority? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Request for comment

To new people coming here, the main issue here is whether articles on television episodes should have the series name as a suffix, or whether only articles needing disambiguation should have such a suffix. Some Wikiprojects have done the former, our present guidelines suggest the latter. A secondary issue is whether the suffix should then be the series name, or whether it should include the word "episode". Current debate is at the bottom of this page; earlier debate and a variety of polls and summaries on the subject are above, or in the archive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Radiant! (talk • contribs) .

BTW, when you say "some have done the former", do you basically mean two? Only Star Trek and Lost seem to have done them that way and done them quasi-intentionally. The rest I think we figured were just copying the Star Trek precedent which, in turn, appears to have been set forth by basically one guy all by himself with no discussion whatsoever. Does that sound about accurate? —Wknight94 (talk) 16:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Almost: except that the Lost discussion appears to have taken place off-wiki, so nobody is really clear what the intentions were. There is certainly no evidence on-wiki that Lost has established a convention to place suffixes on all episode article titles. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, even better - a smoky dimly-lit back room naming convention. Why include the whole project when you can include just the people that agree with you? —Wknight94 (talk) 19:06, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's fair — the Lost article naming convention was supposedly arrived at as a by-product of mediation over another debate, and I'm sure it was reached with good faith. I'm not sure exactly how it happened (as I said, it's not on-wiki, and I wasn't a participant), but I think its intentions were good. Unfortunately, the discussion appears to have reached a resolution that was satisfactory only to the participants in that conversation, and didn't pay sufficient attention to the larger context of Wikipedia — which, of course, is why it's a bad idea to establish guidelines off-wiki. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The Lost discussion didn't happen off-site, it didn't happen at all. What did happen was that the results of the mediation were copied to a sub-page of the Lost WikiProject (Wikipedia:WikiProject Lost/Episode guidelines) by Elonka [101]. When Elonka did this she added a section on episode titles, and then rationalized that when everyone agreed with the mediation results they also agreed with her addition. -- Ned Scott 19:34, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like not even the other project participants were real satisfied. Basically, Josiah, you said the same thing as I - only in a nicer way!  :) —Wknight94 (talk) 19:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Poll again?

In a word, no. We've been over this several times. (Radiant) 08:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC) Users looking for the old RFC can find it in the archives. (Radiant) 08:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

You beat me to it! I'll add my comment, which was "no. This has now crossed the line in being disruptive." -- Ned Scott 08:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Multiple people have called for a clean discussion, since the old one was extremely tangled. The wording in the above poll is primarily that recommended by Josiah Rowe. Let's let things run for one week, in a clean manner. --Elonka 09:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

No. Every time you ask, arbcom looks more friendly. -- Ned Scott 10:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

And before you say it, no, "multiple invitations have gone out" doesn't justify this. --`/aksha 09:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• Multiple people have disagreed with Yet Another Poll. The first poll was clear. The poll about whether the first poll was tainted showed that it wasn't. The summary of positions above makes the position clear yet again. Consensus does not equate to unanimity, and if a few people disagree with something that doesn't mean it's not consensual. People are welcome to comment here as usual, as always; there is no need to call for everyone to repeat their position once more in a poll-like fashion. (Radiant) 10:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

• I have put a few comments up on this very long series of discussions in the last half hour, not sure where is best. This is the first I knew about this discussion. I am still (after an hour and a half of reading) a little unclear whether this is a substantive or procedural discussion. However, as an 'outsider' to this discussion - reading it for the first time today - I feel that Elonka's views have been mischaracterized and that she has been unnecessarily abused. Thank you, Elonka, for trying to draw attention to the fact that both substantive issues may need more discussion. The high level of hostility and personal attacks are completely inappropriate and they turn off newer or less aggressive editors, and creates an unhealthy wikiclimate. It would have been so much easier to just have had a new discussion, instead of arguing over whether there should be a new discussion or not. If there is an issue, discuss it and assume good faith. I know that this has gotten really long, but it wouldn't have been nearly as long if so many people weren't just pushing so hard for things to be closed. Good lord, if somebody wants to talk about something a little longer, or look at things from different angles, or feels that some ideas have been marginalized or that some discussions need to continue, just talk and be done with it. It looks really bad, looking back over the page, how aggressive folx have been in trying to stamp out dissent on an issue that seems like there are at least 2 working sides. Riverbend 17:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
  • If "easy" is your main concern, it would have been very easy to accept the obvious 26-7 consensus from the first poll. I've seriously never seen a situation as lopsided as this contested so hard. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:51, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Riverbend, it might seem that we're a bit harsh with Elonka, but I assure you that is only because this debate has been dragged out needlessly by her and two or three others, her making very misleading statements, and her harassing other editors in the form of inappropriate user talk page warnings. Elonka is very good at misrepresenting the situation. I quote Serge:
    • "The interesting thing about most of Elonka's posts here is if you read them out of context, ignore everything else she and others have said previously, what she says seems to make sense. However, if you take the time to keep up, and when you put it in context... --Serge"
    • Take a look at the start of the debate at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television)/Episode title RfC and then work your way down, and you'll see what I mean. No one here means any disrespect, but there's only so many times you'll let yourself be played. Elonka's tactics have become highly disruptive and manipulative, and the editors here are just getting tired of it, that's all. -- Ned Scott 20:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

There has been profound disrespect throughout this process, ever since the first poll started on October 30, and then was rapidly twisted past recognition. The "obvious 26-7 consensus" that Wknight94 cites above was meaningless, and repeated calls for a new and clean poll have been belittled as "stalling"[102][103], "immature delay tactics"[104][105], "bad faith" [106], and the "whining"[107] of "sore losers"[108] engaging in "borderline trolling"[109] and being generally "disruptive" [110][111]. Riverbend is correct in his assessment that much of this discussion has been little more than aggressive people attempting to stamp out dissent. We need a clean and civil discussion. --Elonka 00:12, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

A 26-7 consensus is meaningless? I think maybe an 8-7 vote or even a 12-7 vote could be called meaningless - but 26-7?! That's a blowout even in the NFL and they can score 7 at a time. —Wknight94 (talk) 00:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's look at the situation. Elonka, when you called for a new poll, you misrepresented people as supporting another poll - in my case you did it twice, even when I pointed it out after the first one and said "For the record, I strongly oppose doing another poll." You said that a second poll should use language that was acceptable to all, yet you posted a poll with language that people had disputed as biased. And when you invited others to participate on other talk pages, you used biased language that misrepresented the situation and was favorable to your position (which I think verged on campaigning). And now we find out that the "guideline" in WP:LOST didn't come from mediation (as you claimed in your edit histories when changing article names), but was simply added by you to the policy with no consensus - obviously consensus to not follow WP:D wasn't present, as demonstrated by the numerous page moves of the Lost episode articles. Based on your actions, I don't see how you can still claim good faith in this discussion, or take a plea for "civility" from you seriously. --Milo H Minderbinder 00:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Since you've cited the diffs, I can only assume you've actually read them -- yet you continue to ignore the very valid points they bring up. I especially like how you cite ThuranX, the exact sort of occaisional contributor you purport to be defending. Once again, if you want respect and support, you need to argue substantive issues, not procedural ones. Otherwise, it's only natural to come to the conclusion that you're stalling. It's not belittling you if it's true, so prove us wrong: #Answer this question, among others. -Anþony 01:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

History has a tendency to repeat itself

... and as such we will return to this discussion at a later date. Elonka is not alone, just the most vocal... The problem with TV episodes they usually reference something with in the show, or the world, to help people connect. So as such we will need to be disambig more and more titles. (A word or a capitalization diffrences is a stupid reason not to disambig.) This leads to a consistancy issue, why are some title diasmbiged while other are not? This issue of consistancy will not go away withthe concensus we have today, so the issue will be brought up again, and who knows maybe next time it will go the other way.. EnsRedShirt 10:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I just found this page today, I do hope that at some point the actual issue could be discussed again - I saw very little actual talk of substantive stuff here, just procedural. For the record, since I didn't know about this discussion earlier, I am in favor of total disambiguation for episode articles, as is done on the Buffy site and many others - we should have consistency among articles from each series. If the guidelines want disambiguation only when necessary, then a series should be able to choose to make that exception to the general guidelines. It makes link-making more predictable and seems really reasonable, especially considering that as other pages are created that may make future disambiguation problems, it would make so much more sense. Riverbend

If any articles or WikiProject want an exception then they need to have a rational reason for exception. Link-making is hardly an issue, as I seriously doubt most editors and readers know the exact title off hand, and would likely check the article before making the link. WP:D explains how we can handle future disambiguation conflicts, should they arise. The only argument that has been offered is "consistency", but without a reason why we need consistency. -- Ned Scott 20:09, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's something I said a few sections up " I think this is one situation were common practice holds no weight. For one, it's not uncommon for a single editor to start 20, 30, or even 40 + episode articles. Not only that, but a single List of episodes article can dictate the naming when people create via redlinks. It's also human nature to do things like consistent naming for the sake of consistency alone. It's one of those things that can easily spread, and fast. This alone only tells us that it's easy to start articles on Wikipedia, not that there was any considerable thought behind the process. -- Ned Scott" -- Ned Scott 20:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Why are some title dabbed and some not? Because some need them and some don't.

You may as well ask for all books to be dabbed with the author. After all, some books are and some books are not. And...why the hell does everything here not need dabbing when some already do? --`/aksha 13:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, see arguments presented here --`/aksha 13:06, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

You missunderstand who is asking the question, its not me or Elonka or any other editor. It's the end reader, wondering why a connected series of articles doesn't look like a connected series of articles. EnsRedShirt 17:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

A lot of readers wonder why we don't have recipes on Wikipedia, or more fan site external links. Most readers will not type in an episode name directly, they will follow a link, making it a non-issue for the reader. -- Ned Scott 20:04, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

EnsRedShirt, I think you're making a mistake in assuming that the average reader will notice or care whether article titles are "consistent". If, for example, someone were reading the pages about the character Simon Templar ("The Saint"), they would see several pages that have the suffix (The Saint) after them, and several that do not. (The first four novels in that series are at the pages Meet - The Tiger!, Enter the Saint, The Last Hero (The Saint) and Knight Templar (The Saint).) This is not a problem. If Star Trek: The Next Generation episodes were titled in accordance with this guideline, I don't think anyone would wonder why they would go from Encounter at Farpoint to The Naked Now to Code of Honor (TNG episode); or, if they did, they would quickly realize that the suffixes went with episodes that had names shared with other topics.

As I said here, the desire for all pages in a given category to have the same suffix is solely an aesthetic one, and is not supported by Wikipedia guidelines or policies. Wikipedia:Disambiguation says, "When there is no risk of confusion, do not disambiguate nor add a link to a disambiguation page." That's what parenthetical suffixes are for: disambiguation, and disambiguation only. They're not there to provide context for a page, or to make pages look "consistent". If redirects are provided, there's no problem with ease of link creation either.

Elonka also cited WP:NC, which says "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." She read this as supporting preemptive disambiguation of episode articles. However, she chose not to cite the next paragraph, which makes it clear (to me, at least) why the "consistency" argument holds no water:

Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists.

Who is most likely to care whether the members of a given category have the same suffix in their titles? Editors of those articles, and specialists in that series. A lay reader isn't going to care whether the articles have the same suffix or not. They're here for the information. As long as they can navigate between articles well, it won't matter to them whether an episode has (TNG episode) after it or not. It's the editors who care how a category looks. The reader or the general audience won't care. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 23:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

And I respectfully disagree. It benefits the readers when a series of articles look consistant top to bottom. EnsRedShirt 03:58, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

So you are suggesting that all Wikipedia articles have a parenthetical disambiguator after them? Jay32183 04:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The only place you'll see them like that is in a category. Is that where you're concerned about appearance? —Wknight94 (talk) 04:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

(replying to EnsRedShirt) How exactly, in your view, does this "consistency" benefit readers? What possible difference can it make? And why are episodes of a television series any different from any other articles in a series, such as film series, novel series or even Prime Ministers of New Zealand, all of which are disambiguated only as necessary? Do you disagree with the line in the long-standing Wikipedia guideline Wikipedia:Disambiguation that says "When there is no risk of confusion, do not disambiguate nor add a link to a disambiguation page."? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see it as disambiguation, just clarification for the reader so that they can quickly realize what they are reading at a glance.. As for the others thats up for their wikiprojects and editors to decide, I am neither so I won't comment on what they decide to do or not to do.EnsRedShirt 04:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

So disambiguation isn't disambiguation, but actually functions as the lead and category? That argument has already been demonstrated as factually inaccurate. Jay32183 05:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, otherwise, most every novel would need its author in parentheses, most astronomical articles (Messier 31, e.g.) would need (star cluster) or (galaxy) after them, and just about every political figure in every country would need an explanation after their name (surely not every English-speaking reader from Bangladesh knows who Tom Daschle is), etc. That's a job for the first sentence of the article, not the article title. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Please do not misrepresent our position by dragging in all these other types of examples (that's a classic example of a "Straw man" argument). What I am saying is that for television episodes, which are stories that are released in a clear sequence, and usually have succession boxes to allow people to step through everything in order, it makes sense to have consistent article titles. And even so, I am not saying that all television series should use this method, but that for those series which do choose this method, I don't see it as causing a problem, and indeed, I can see many advantages to it, including consistency of appearance, inclusion of context in the article title, and ease of distinguishing which show that an episode is from, when scanning a watchlist. --Elonka 23:16, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that you have not determined any TV series as different from another. Knowing that you can't make an exception, it's all or nothing. Also, you haven't presented that tv shows are different from any other subject, even those with a clear sequence, and will also need to be all or nothing.Jay32183 23:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, what Jay said is why my argument is not straw man at all. Your argument would apply to stepping through U.S. Senators or a list of basketball players or a list of Hemmingway novels. Your notion that "it wouldn't hurt" is a bit of a straw man now that you mention it. No one has said it would "hurt" - we're just saying it's unnecessary and anti-guideline. Making every word in every one of the Lost articles' upper case wouldn't "hurt" either. —Wknight94 (talk) 23:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

"but that for those series which do choose this method" <<and i repeat again, there are NO TV SERIES THAT DO CHOOSE THIS METHOD!. Lost did NOT choose this method, a few editors out of many lost editors did. Stargate did choose this method, but have decided it's okay for us to change it. Other wikiprojects/TVseries have said nothing to make us think they chose anything. So it's far more likely a matter of someone did it and everyone else ignored it. --`/aksha 02:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• Multiple series did indeed choose this method, including Lost, Star Trek, and Stargate. Further, I'll remind you that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television) here said that Star Trek episodes were to use this method, for several months, until Ned Scott started edit-warring and removing that text.[112] --Elonka 03:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Please provide links to the discussions where the guidelines for these three exceptions were decided. —Wknight94 (talk) 04:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Would it make any difference to the situation today? Regardless of how long the exception for Star Trek was in there and how much consensus there was or wasn't, there is clearly no consensus supporting such exceptions today. This has been confirmed by the voting on the move of the Lost episodes where Elonka is one of only two people who oppose those moves. --Serge 05:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Moving forward

I can see six possible courses of action here, depending on the views and actions of those editing the page. Let's examine them one by one:

1. We continue squabbling like toddlers fighting over a toy. I think that we all would agree that the conversation on this page has not been very productive. But if we choose, we can continue as we have been.
2. The majority of editors agree to do as Elonka wishes, and hold another poll. I don't think this is very likely to happen. I proposed this last week, and it was pretty soundly rejected. Since I myself believe that the discussion following the previous poll established a consensus, I'm not going to push for this one.
3. Elonka and the editors supporting her accept that there is a consensus opposing their position. This also seems quite unlikely to me.
4. We continue to escalate the confrontation, and (sooner or later) take it to ArbCom. This is an incredibly long, tedious and painful process for everyone; plus, in the grand scheme of Wikipedia the issue of how television episode articles are named is pretty insignificant, and I'd feel bad wasting ArbCom's valuable time with it. I'd really like to avoid this if at all possible.
5. Everyone agrees to drop the matter, leaving the guideline as it is but in practice allowing exceptions by WikiProjects. This might seem an attractive compromise on the surface of it, but would actually be absurd given the current status of the survey on Lost articles.
6. We agree to mediation, as suggested by Wknight94 above. Although the suggestion didn't get very far last time, I think that it's our best option.

So, once again: mediation anyone? Even if we can't agree on whether a consensus had previously been established, can we at least agree that the current debate is getting us nowhere? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

In all honesty, I'm trying to follow a #7 which is not on your list: Watch this page, calmly follow the script and repeat the well-rehearsed answers that I've already given numerous times and exert as little energy as possible - all while the folks here that recognize the obvious consensus go about moving articles to be the way the consensus has decided. —Wknight94 (talk) 05:27, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• Reading my mind. +1 to #7. Of course, some may claim this is the same as #1, but I think it's different. --Serge 05:31, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• Same here actually. #7 was my plan. Follow this page, get all the pages moved. Sort out any problems that may arise (although none has) from the moving. And once everything is moved, leave and let live and get this page off my watchlist --`/aksha 05:45, 21 November 2006 (UTC)