Talk:China: Difference between revisions
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:{{u|AberrationForced}}: No. There are plenty of scholarly sources on the topic and that cannot be overriden by a couple of news pieces. Please, see [[Ideology of the Communist Party of China]]. --[[User:MarioGom|MarioGom]] ([[User talk:MarioGom|talk]]) 10:30, 14 October 2019 (UTC) |
:{{u|AberrationForced}}: No. There are plenty of scholarly sources on the topic and that cannot be overriden by a couple of news pieces. Please, see [[Ideology of the Communist Party of China]]. --[[User:MarioGom|MarioGom]] ([[User talk:MarioGom|talk]]) 10:30, 14 October 2019 (UTC) |
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==Language in Account1's edits== |
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==Apologetic language== |
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{{ping|CaradhrasAiguo}} in case you are not reading the edits made by The Account 1 who has history of censoring negative content on this page.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=China&diff=920791111&oldid=920790690] I think you should review your revert again and abide by [[WP:BRD]]. We cannot accept apologetic and unexplained edits like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=China&diff=921601497&oldid=921600770 this] or tag bomb the lead when the issue is already resolved by the sources provided. Since all very recent edits were poor and unwarranted I simply restored an earlier version. Take a look at the discussion above too titled under "Superpower?". [[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman.kumar.goel]] ([[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|talk]]) 15:50, 25 October 2019 (UTC) |
{{ping|CaradhrasAiguo}} in case you are not reading the edits made by The Account 1 who has history of censoring negative content on this page.[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=China&diff=920791111&oldid=920790690] I think you should review your revert again and abide by [[WP:BRD]]. We cannot accept apologetic and unexplained edits like [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=China&diff=921601497&oldid=921600770 this] or tag bomb the lead when the issue is already resolved by the sources provided. Since all very recent edits were poor and unwarranted I simply restored an earlier version. Take a look at the discussion above too titled under "Superpower?". [[User:Aman.kumar.goel|Aman.kumar.goel]] ([[User talk:Aman.kumar.goel|talk]]) 15:50, 25 October 2019 (UTC) |
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:[[WP:NPA|No]], [[WP:CIVIL|no]], and no. You have also reverted (and conveniently neglected to mention) uninvolved editors such as {{u|STSC}} and {{u|C.J. Griffin}}, who have [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=China&type=revision&diff=922374531&oldid=922338226 edited] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=China&diff=921458334&oldid=921395793 beyond] correcting Account1's mistakes. <span style="color: #8B0000">Caradhras</span>Aiguo (<small>[[User talk:CaradhrasAiguo|leave language]]</small>) 15:56, 25 October 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 15:56, 25 October 2019
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Superpower?
I know there's different definitions of a superpower. But when you Google this, there's clearly no widespread agreement that China is currently one. At least not in the same sense as the US. For every article that argues this view, you can easily find a contrary one. And that's even if you only count sources within the last year or two. In 2019, even China's state-owned think tank, the Development Research Center of the State Council, says the US will be the sole superpower at least until 2035.[1] So at minimum, the claim is mixed or disputed. At most, it's outright wrong. In any case, it's incorrect or misleading for the lead to say it's "widely characterized" as a superpower - something that is later contradicted in the body of the article. It should either say that it's still a potential superpower or that it's sometimes considered as such. Spellcast (talk) 18:28, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- I don't care much for journalistic sources supporting statements like that, but one of the citations on that comment is an academic paper with decent credentials associated with it. That, supported by the mass media references, kind of presents a compelling case for inclusion. I'd be open to a slight rewording if it makes sense with the sources, but not deletion on WP:IDONTLIKEIT grounds. Simonm223 (talk) 18:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- If you exclude media sources, the article cites two academic papers. I can only access one. And it says in the conclusion that China "will emerge as another superpower", so it doesn't support the claim that it currently is one.[2] Spellcast (talk) 19:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- That's the basis under which I'd support a slight revision,
China has been widely characterized as an emerging superpower, rivaling the United States,
would summarize the article's thrust more accurately. Simonm223 (talk) 19:16, 18 June 2019 (UTC)- Agreed but probably don't need to add "widely" as it doesn't seem to be disputed that it's at least a potential superpower or emerging power. And I'm not sure if "rivaling the United States" is necessary to add given the other countries or entities listed in the potential superpowers article. None of them directly compare themselves to the US when mentioning it. And it could be seen as recentist wording given the current trade war. Spellcast (talk) 19:56, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- The entire thrust of the key source is that China's emergence as a superpower is a challenge to American hegemony, so I'd prefer to keep the rivaling the United States part, but I'm not wedded to the word "widely." How about
China has been characterized as an emerging superpower, and a potential challenge to American hegemony.
? Simonm223 (talk) 12:22, 19 June 2019 (UTC)- And for bonus points, using that phrasing would let us include the following reference: Zhu, Zhiqun (2006). US-China relations in the 21st century : power transition and peace. London ; New York: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-70208-9.
- I get the sense that the trade war is the main, if only reason for mentioning the US rivalry in the lead. Especially since all the three media refs are about the trade war. The problem with that sentence is that it's not an undisputed fact that China will inevitably become a superpower. Sure, it might. But to assert that by only choosing sources that support that side of the argument seems rather one-sided. Even the ref you just mentioned from the the Hegemony article says it's faced opposition. In the lead, it seems uncontroversial to say that China is a great power, a regional power in Asia, and potential superpower. As to whether it's currently a superpower or will be, the views for and against seem more appropriate for the body than the lead. But I'd like to hear more opinions. Spellcast (talk) 19:57, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- Ok, look, I keep throwing drafts and you keep saying no. Would you care to propose a revision? Simonm223 (talk) 21:39, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- That "China is a great power, a regional power in Asia, and potential superpower." I was thinking of also adding something like "...and sometimes considered a superpower". But I think that's getting too convoluted for the lead. And given the contentiousness of that statement, it seems more appropriate for the body. Also it's interesting that this ABC article from yesterday talks about this very issue. Could be a good source to use: Is America still the world's only superpower or is China a real rival? Experts aren't so sure anymore. Spellcast (talk) 11:33, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- I have very strong WP:NOTNEWS opinions about using media sources when there are already academic sources in use. This is exacerbated when Western media sources, such as Australian ones are used to refer to regional rivals like China. What I'm saying is I would not consider an a news article from Australia to be WP:DUE any weight for this topic compared to the extant scholarly sources. Simonm223 (talk) 12:14, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes academic articles are typically better than news articles. I only linked it because of the coincidental timing. I don't think it was trying to argue for or against the claim. It just mentions various opinions. Spellcast (talk) 15:18, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks. I've been fighting a losing battle against the over-use of newsmedia as an an RS in contemporary political articles for a long time now so I'm touchy about it. Appreciate the clarification. Simonm223 (talk) 15:45, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Yes academic articles are typically better than news articles. I only linked it because of the coincidental timing. I don't think it was trying to argue for or against the claim. It just mentions various opinions. Spellcast (talk) 15:18, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- I have very strong WP:NOTNEWS opinions about using media sources when there are already academic sources in use. This is exacerbated when Western media sources, such as Australian ones are used to refer to regional rivals like China. What I'm saying is I would not consider an a news article from Australia to be WP:DUE any weight for this topic compared to the extant scholarly sources. Simonm223 (talk) 12:14, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- That "China is a great power, a regional power in Asia, and potential superpower." I was thinking of also adding something like "...and sometimes considered a superpower". But I think that's getting too convoluted for the lead. And given the contentiousness of that statement, it seems more appropriate for the body. Also it's interesting that this ABC article from yesterday talks about this very issue. Could be a good source to use: Is America still the world's only superpower or is China a real rival? Experts aren't so sure anymore. Spellcast (talk) 11:33, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Ok, look, I keep throwing drafts and you keep saying no. Would you care to propose a revision? Simonm223 (talk) 21:39, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- I get the sense that the trade war is the main, if only reason for mentioning the US rivalry in the lead. Especially since all the three media refs are about the trade war. The problem with that sentence is that it's not an undisputed fact that China will inevitably become a superpower. Sure, it might. But to assert that by only choosing sources that support that side of the argument seems rather one-sided. Even the ref you just mentioned from the the Hegemony article says it's faced opposition. In the lead, it seems uncontroversial to say that China is a great power, a regional power in Asia, and potential superpower. As to whether it's currently a superpower or will be, the views for and against seem more appropriate for the body than the lead. But I'd like to hear more opinions. Spellcast (talk) 19:57, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
- And for bonus points, using that phrasing would let us include the following reference: Zhu, Zhiqun (2006). US-China relations in the 21st century : power transition and peace. London ; New York: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-70208-9.
- The entire thrust of the key source is that China's emergence as a superpower is a challenge to American hegemony, so I'd prefer to keep the rivaling the United States part, but I'm not wedded to the word "widely." How about
- Agreed but probably don't need to add "widely" as it doesn't seem to be disputed that it's at least a potential superpower or emerging power. And I'm not sure if "rivaling the United States" is necessary to add given the other countries or entities listed in the potential superpowers article. None of them directly compare themselves to the US when mentioning it. And it could be seen as recentist wording given the current trade war. Spellcast (talk) 19:56, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
- That's the basis under which I'd support a slight revision,
- If you exclude media sources, the article cites two academic papers. I can only access one. And it says in the conclusion that China "will emerge as another superpower", so it doesn't support the claim that it currently is one.[2] Spellcast (talk) 19:13, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
China is not commonly considered a superpower: the majority of sources use the term "potential superpower" at the most, or they just state that the United States is the sole superpower. Rarely do they cite China as a superpower, and it most certainly isn't "widely characterized" as such. Such wording is not accurate at all. You can find sources saying that China is a superpower, but most say it is not a superpower. Bill Williams (talk) 15:56, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Of course, if going by widely understood geopolitical definitions, China is probably not quite a "superpower", but one might look back to the origin of the term in the first place - most recently used to describe the relationship between the United States and the USSR, to appreciate that it means different things in different contexts, and different things to different people. To be honest, I am ok leaving it out of the lede altogether, as it is still contentious. That being said, the number of reliable media sources casually and formally referring to it as a superpower has been growing - for instance, you will notice an entire feature on The New York Times in 2018, dedicated to "how China became a Superpower". Ditto for ABC in Australia. There are of course voices to the contrary as well, such as the Economist, definitely stating that the US remains the only existing superpower, and the BBC which is somewhere in between. The current formulation, describing it as an "emerging superpower", is also not off base; but saying it is merely a "potential superpower" is perhaps not in line with what is described in mainstream media these days. Colipon+(Talk) 02:05, 11 August 2019 (UTC) I like tacos.
- China is already the world superpower. It is the largest economy in the world and it defeated the US invasions of Korea and Vietnam. It has prevented the US from carrying out regime change in Iran, Syria, Venezuela and North Korea. (86.150.124.19 (talk) 18:38, 4 October 2019 (UTC))
Classifying China as a fascist country
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/world/asia/01iht-letter01.html https://quillette.com/2019/08/05/china-and-the-difficulties-of-dissent/
Whit everything happening now, should it be mentioned that China has the qualities of a fascist country? The above articles would seem to agree. Aberration (talk) 09:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- Not enough for inclusion of "fascist" tag but this sure tells that reception of Chinese government is at least mixed. Aman.kumar.goel (talk) 16:15, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
- AberrationForced: No. There are plenty of scholarly sources on the topic and that cannot be overriden by a couple of news pieces. Please, see Ideology of the Communist Party of China. --MarioGom (talk) 10:30, 14 October 2019 (UTC)
Language in Account1's edits
@CaradhrasAiguo: in case you are not reading the edits made by The Account 1 who has history of censoring negative content on this page.[3] I think you should review your revert again and abide by WP:BRD. We cannot accept apologetic and unexplained edits like this or tag bomb the lead when the issue is already resolved by the sources provided. Since all very recent edits were poor and unwarranted I simply restored an earlier version. Take a look at the discussion above too titled under "Superpower?". Aman.kumar.goel (talk) 15:50, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- No, no, and no. You have also reverted (and conveniently neglected to mention) uninvolved editors such as STSC and C.J. Griffin, who have edited beyond correcting Account1's mistakes. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 15:56, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
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