Talk:Canada

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Missing |electricity= parameter

Template:Infobox country has many parameters, and Template:Infobox country is one of them. I'm surprised that we were missing it as it can be useful for people who do not know about this detail, not unlike other parameters. I'm not sure why it was missing or why we would want to remove it. I could see if it was not a valid parameter, or if it were a duplicate to another, but neither is the case. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:43, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

It appears based on the edit history that you are referring to |electricity= rather than {{infobox country}}. This parameter was boldly added yesterday, but as its inclusion is disputed I have removed it pending the outcome of discussion here. Being a valid and unique parameter is not a sufficient cause for inclusion. The value is unsourced, and the detail is not something warranting that level of prominence. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:57, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

It's inclusion is not disputed. I have no clue why it was removed. If there's no valid reason to exclude, it will be reinstated as a) it's a valid parameter, and b) it was not present here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:20, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

It was removed because its inclusion is disputed. And no, we don't default-include. The fact that it's a valid parameter not previously included is not in itself a rationale for including it. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:23, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

And the fact that it was not previously included is not a valid reason for removing it. If it were untrue, it would. If the use of the parameter in other articles was disputed it would be, but this feels like WP:IDONTLIKEIT rather that WP:STATUSQUO. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:31, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

It is included in very few other articles, period. As I've noted, the value is unsourced and the detail is trivial, not warranting highlighting in the infobox. And also as I've noted, we don't default to including every parameter possible. Even if it were true, being true does not require inclusion. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:47, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

The omission of an infrastructure section notwithstanding, these are all concerns easily addressed. If consensus is that an infrastructure section should be added, it could have both transportation and energy sub-sections as is the case with United States#Infrastructure. The sections could be cobbled together from transportation in Canada, energy policy of Canada, electricity sector in Canada and other articles. Once done, we could turn our attention to that and other omissions from the infobox. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Nikkimaria what wrong with adding electricity, calling code is there, driving side is there. if you added main electricity 120 V - 60Hx or 230 V–50 Hz. it gives an idea to a person planning to visit that country or researching that country. India, USA, UK and other countries has it. And I saw you removed it from Australia and New Zealand pages. why? you can't just remove just because you don't like it. down here in Australia and New Zealnd we have 230 V–50 Hz as a main electrity. and that info was correct. Plz stop removing it. Muzi (talk) 08:46, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

As I've already said, simply being correct is not sufficient to warrant inclusion. The template is meant to include only key facts that can be read at a glance, not every available parameter; it may well be the case that there are others warranting removal, but this one in particular is trivia unlikely to be of interest to a wide audience. We're not a travel guide. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:35, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Agree with Nikkimaria that this is not notable enough to include in the infobox. WP:NOTAGUIDE definitely is relevant here. —Joeyconnick (talk) 03:03, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

There should be a general rule for this. We should check that first. TFD (talk) 04:58, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Was this a mistake?

In that picture

at the end of the of Vancouver Island, it shows CsB. I see little lighter bits of yellow in it. Does that mean Canada has Csa, or is that more BSk? Unknown... (talk) 04:04, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Chief justice in infobox

Hi all - while this has been previously discussed, I think it is time to once again re-visit placing the chief justice position in the infobox.

A past argument against inclusion is that the inbox is only for listing members of the big-G, executive Government of Canada. First, I'd note that the monarch and GG are not members of the "Government", which would only be the prime minister and Cabinet. However, the link that the section directs to is politics of Canada (not an article for the executive), which encompasses much much more than just the PM / Cabinet and the role of the courts play a huge part in Canadian politics, which I will touch on later. We should also consider the recent changes to the government of Canada article and discussion at Talk:Government of Canada, which notes the different meanings of the term government, meaning not just the executive branch but also the state as a whole.

With that in mind... it makes sense to list the monarch and GG because state power is vested in the Crown ; it makes sense to list the prime minister because he leads the activities of not only the executive "Government", but with the "fusion of powers" in parliamentary democracies, he also is the de facto leader of the legislative branch though leading the largest party in the House (being the only party that can submit money bills) and essentially setting the agenda of the legislature. While there is no formal or direct control over parliament's actions, the PM undoubtedly plays an essential role in its activities.

However, the PM does not have the same influence over the courts as he does over parliament or the executive. A representative of the judicial branch is noticeably absent from the infobox.

Another past argument against inclusion are that the role of the courts isn't as notable as that of parliament or the executive, and have cited the United Kingdom's article as an example. The problem with this is that it doesn't account for the fact that the parliament is sovereign in the UK, and the UK supreme court cannot overturn an act of the legislature.

There is a strong tradition of constitutionalism in Canada. Acts of parliament and provincial legislatures are regularly nullified by the supreme court and short of invoking the notwithstanding clause, which only applies in very limited Charter-related cases, there is nothing a legislature can do to legitimize legislation the court has struck down.

Any thoughts on this? —WildComet ^talk 03:52, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

As per last talk best have a wider talk....personaly for me its a No as per previous reasons... and the fact I believe more junk should be removed from infobox not the other way around ....as of now its a mobile view scrolling nightmare that deters readers.Moxy- 06:26, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

I as a Canadian would love to see it and I disagree with the characterization that adding our Chief Justice would be considered “junk” also the United Kingdom’s and United States articles are longer than Canada’s and I wouldn’t think anyone calls those articles a nightmare that deters mobile viewers and even if it did it shouldn’t matter if it’s called for and in my opinion necessary this article is supposed to show readers our government and putting the Chief Justice is necessary it’s independent provinces frequently take policies federal government issued to the Supreme Court such as carbon pricing in recent times adding the Chief Justice in my opinion is necessary and would inform the public I hope it gets added Black roses124 (talk) 23:52, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

I do not recall if I commented in the previous discussion, but it does not make any difference to most Canadians, and I don't think it's worthwhile in the infobox. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:08, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I am also against including the chief justice, mainly due to its low profile compared to the US. Compared to the last time this was discussed, the two of the three countries that were cited as example (Australia, Germany and the USA) have since removed the chief justice from the list with the exception of the US where the supreme court plays a major role in politics. In almost all other countries it does not and I would include Canada in the list of these countries. I dont think that decisions on Carbon Pricing have the same political impact as decisions in the US, such as gay marriage, racial segregation and abortion rights which were essentially decided by the supreme court. Ultimately it comes down to who holds the power (and who people believe holds the power) in government in terms of what people expect to read when they see the term "government of Canada". I think the current selection monarch, GG, PM is fine with me. There are other examples like Switzerland that lists all 7 members of the federal council because they all wield significant power independent of each other and are what people think of as "government", similarly Germany includes Olaf Scholz even though he is vice-chancellor because the government is a CDU-SPD coaliation. --hroest 14:27, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Canada has three branches of government executive, judicial, and legislative that’s a fact see the link on Canada’s government https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/discover-canada/read-online/canadas-system-government.html executive is Trudeau legislative also Trudeau he’s leader of biggest party and judicial a branch of Canada’s government is not represented because in some peoples eyes it’s not important? Carbon pricing in the west has had an immense impact they’ve created a political party to separate with the rest of Canada because of it. Supreme Court has decided other issues as well such as Carter V Canada saying assisted suicide should be legal it should no longer be illegal or OPCAT Supreme Court decided that it didn’t violate our charter rights and informed indigenous consent is not a veto. At the end of the day its a branch of Canada’s government if you like it or not I could say the monarch isn’t important to Canada government and should be removed from infobox but obviously that’s silly the judicial branch of Canada’s government should be added. Black roses124 (talk) 15:20, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I meant UNDRIP not OPCAT I apologize Black roses124 (talk) 15:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@Black roses124: nobody is claiming that the judicial branch of government isnt a part of government, the question is simply whether they are important enough to be included in the info box. As you may notice, there is also no representation of the legislative branch of government in the box (lower or upper house), right now only the executive is represented. But I am happy to have other people weigh in with their thoughts. --hroest 15:45, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

@hroest monarch and Governor General importance should definitely be questioned if adding our Chief Justice isn’t important but yes you are totally right let’s hear what other people have to say Black roses124 (talk) 15:59, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I agree in principle with that, however if the infobox states that the form of government is a "Federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy" then the question comes up who the monarch is in this monarchy and I therefore think the monarch should be included for a high level summary. I think we could debate about the GG in the infobox and how relevant that is constitutionally and practically. --hroest 18:22, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Agree with all of the voices that are stating that the judicial branch of government is not important enough in Canada. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:49, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I oppose inclusion because the purpose of the info-box is to supply readers with a high level summary of key information. Bloating the box with unimportant information makes it more difficult for readers to find important information.

Incidentally, the Constitution did not create the Supreme Court, it allowed the Canadian parliament to create a "general court of appeal for Canada." (s. 101) The CJ's position in succession to the GG was made by an imperial order in council.

TFD (talk) 17:03, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

We should definitely have a debate on if Governor General should be included in the infobox Black roses124 (talk) 21:25, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

That' makes more sense to include. More Canadians know the GG's role and who the current GG is (save for the current caretaker) than can name any supreme court judge or who the chief justice is.

On a separate note, could you please learn how to discuss topics on talk pages? Your constant outdents are becoming annoying. Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines has what you need to know. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:15, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

The names of heads of state are typically listed for countries, even though prime ministers are usually more powerful. (Canada is unusual in having a viceroy who performs most of the functions of head of state.) And no, most Canadians cannot name the governor general, unless they do something unusual like the last gg. TFD (talk) 22:51, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I simply stated that more Canadians know the GG than know the chief justice. I suspect that both are single-digit percentages. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:04, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Pantone?

Why is the Pantone flag not being used? Why is it not being used? Can someone explain? WikiMakersOfOurTime (talk) 16:18, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

The svg version that uses Pantone colours (File:Flag of Canada (Pantone).svg) is being used. There was a brief addition of the Mexican flag and then a failed attempt at fixing the vandalism, but it's all correct now. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:19, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Economics again

@Adolphe Lestrange: added a link to File:Canada Product Exports (2019).svg to the economy section of the article. @Moxy: removed it claiming a previous discussion. Adolphe Lestrange restored it rather than opening a discussion and was reverted by @Nikkimaria: claiming it was "not legible". I, in turn questioned that nonsense as it's a thumbnail and if you can't make out the details on a thumbnail, you can click through to see it at full size. Nikkimaria, removed the image rather than reverting me and asked me to take it to the talk page. I ignored the request and restored it and opened a discussion on the editor's talk page who also invoked WP:ONUS. However there is no consensus to remove this image anywhere contrary to Moxy's and Nikkimaria's claim. I just searched the archive for "Canada Product" and found nothing. Exports revealed Talk:Canada/Archive 22#Interesting Graph of Canada's Exports which is unrelated and Talk:Canada/Archive 26#Images is about a lower-quality (and earlier) image. My only concerns are that are exports vital to understanding Canada's economy? That's only one part of the economy. My second concern is the proliferation of images. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:50, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

The argument that it is a thumbnail and therefore size is unproblematic is untrue. Even at full size some of the text (even for those squares that include text) is not legible - one of several concerns related to the accessibility of the image. The issues of weighting and proliferation of images, as noted, argue against including the image.

Walter Görlitz, regarding there is no consensus to remove this image: the ONUS policy states quite clearly that the burden to achieve consensus is on those wanting to include the disputed content - in this case yourself and Adolphe Lestrange - not to remove it. Again, please revert your re-addition unless/until discussion here concludes in favour of including the image. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

The argument that it is a thumbnail and problematic is untrue as anyone can click on the image if too small. And ONUS is clear that if CONSENSUS is reached, but you and Moxy are not a consensus and there is no established consensus. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:09, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

In the following sentence at ONUS: "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content.". In other words, in the absence of consensus for inclusion, the material is excluded. And as I noted, clicking on the image does not result in consistently legible text. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:13, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

The initial click-through (depending on your settings) may be too small, but not the largest version, and certainly not the original svg format, which can be increased to the maximum size your browser allows. In the three I tested (Firefox, Chrome and Edge) that is 500%. If that is too small, the problem ceases to be the size of the image. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:27, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Readers should not be expected to have to click through an image to be able to understand it. In general, the best case scenario is that images can be clearly understood at the default thumbnail size (especially as mobile usage dominates readership). An image that has to be expanded should have some reason for appearing more prominent than other images, and even at the expanded 1.3x size of this image, I only find 5 of the boxes legible. CMD (talk) 01:32, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

But without the image present, readers will not know it exists and it's rather useful at full size. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:40, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

There is a very similar image at the main Economy of Canada, which is where I suspect any reader looking for the details presented would go. (Although even there it is not at a great size, it should be shifted and presented at a size large enough to read for the screens which support it.) CMD (talk) 01:47, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

One of 3 graph spamming instance of this week.....hard to keep up with chart spamming lately.Moxy- 12:30, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

It's not a very good way of presenting the information in an article such as this. The thumbnail is 100% useless. The initial click on it is not very helpful. A subsequent click to the highest resolution works, but now you have the information buried in a format you need to scroll all over to understand. If this information is important it should be in a table somewhere, in the Economics of Canada article, not hidden in an extremely user unfriendly and accessibility nightmare graphic. Canterbury Tail talk 12:38, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Should we revert the mass addition of these?Moxy- 12:43, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I disagree, I think it's a great way of presenting the information, but this is not the bet article for it. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:58, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:23, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

"Northern half" man is back

Blocked editor I am the state (talk · contribs) has come back in the form of Facts707 (talk · contribs) has insisting that Canada is in the northern half of the continent. I'm not planning an edit war, but I just thought I'd inform other editors of this. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:50, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

They're welcome to try and get a new consensus on the talk page, but a consensus they'll need to get. This has been discussed many times previously, and I'm not aware of that consensus having changed. If they wish to continue that line, they'll need to bring it here for discussion. Canterbury Tail talk 15:00, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Wow. Firstly I have no idea who I am the state (talk · contribs) is, nor am I or have I ever collaborated with that editor. I also haven't collaborated or discussed any changes with anyone on the Canada page. I edit lots of pages and try to fix obvious typos or errors or glaring omissions when I run across them. In this case, there is no mention of where Canada is in relation to North America in the lead section except in relation to the three oceans. Nor is there any mention that winter is cold in most of Canada (was reverted on that one some years ago on the grounds that the lead was "longstanding"). I didn't realize that "northern half" was so contentious; it is only an approximation and I suppose one could say "northern three-fifths except Alaska" or some such. Secondly, no Canadian or American refers to a "western border" between Canada and the United States, primarily because the Pacific Ocean is thought of as being the primary western edge of the country. The Alaska/Yukon border and the ragged Alaska/British Columbia border happen to be in the northwestern part of Canada which by coincidence is in the northwestern part of North America. Please try to assume good faith and not assume an editor is part of some malicious cabal on the basis of a couple simple edits. Facts707 (talk) 18:35, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

The term in the article is "southern and western border with the United States". In other words, the border to our south and the one between BC, the Youkon and Alaska is the other. While few people would use "western border", it is, I believe, the correct term. Can you describe it in a different way while making it clear that it is all a border between the two countries, and not just the one that most Canadians think of?

I did assume good faith, but there are certain terms that make it appear as though an editor who 1) used many accounts and 2) often denied knowing anything about the previous accounts has returned.

The archives have the discussions about why Canada is not the northern half of Canada, so I won't re-hash them here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:14, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

The official name of Canada is "The Dominion of Canada"

Though rarely used its the official title of the nation and should be represented as such on Wikipedia. Similar to how Australia is listed as "The commonwealth of Australia" though its commonly and usually referred to as just Australia.