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October 27

Grammatical case question

In the sentence "The man was bitten by the dog", what is the grammatical case of "dog"? Lantzy : Lantzy 02:28, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Objective (or accusative if you prefer that terminology). It's the object of the preposition "by". Compare: "The answer was given by me" (not "I"). --184.144.99.72 (talk) 02:58, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Instrumental case. In English this is indicated by the presence of 'by'; English does not use declension to indicate this case.--2A00:23C8:4583:9F01:716C:7BA1:5958:CB07 (talk) 03:06, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In modern English, Instrument(al) is more of a thematic relation than a "case" in the usual sense... AnonMoos (talk) 03:35, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In modern English, it does not really make too much sense to discuss grammatical case, since there are only just a few rudimentary remains of the IE case system (mainly in pronouns). In languages that no longer depend on case, the preposition construct is one way of expressing the same semantic value. Another way is word order: "Man bit dog" vs. "Dog bit man". In a truly case-dependant language, the word order could be irrelevant, since the case of the words for 'man' and 'dog' would tell who bit and who was bitten. --T*U (talk) 07:15, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Modern English has only rudiments of its older Germanic case system left in the personal pronouns (as also pointed out by 184.144.99.72): I – me; he – him; she – her; we – us; they – them. These forms can't be used interchangeably in standard English; the use of the appropriate form is obligatory, so it is too early to dispose of the notion of grammatical case. The dative and accusative cases of Old English merged, while the genitive and instrumental cases were lost. (Some people consider the possessive form "father's", as in "my father's house", to be the genitive case of English. Although its origin may have been a Germanic case form, linguists today generally no longer classify this as a grammatical case.) Since, next to the nominative/vocative case, the language has now only one grammatical case left, used for all other instances than the subject (with a curious exception for "you and I", as in "between you and I"), it could also be dubbed "the" oblique case, but the term "objective case" is more common. --Lambiam 09:56, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Between you and I" is bad English, though. "Between you and me" is the proper form. "you and I" is used by folks trying to sound posh and proper but don't actually understand the rules of grammar. 2600:1702:4960:1DE0:D8A0:BDBC:2DED:46C5 (talk) 01:12, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I assume the objective "...and I" is a hypercorrection by people who were scolded for saying "me and Timmy" as a subject. (But that raises the question, why is subject "me and Timmy" common when subject "me" is not?) —Tamfang (talk) 02:09, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Methinks it's fairly rare nowadays. It sounds too much like Tonto: "Me work 30 years for Kemo Sabe…" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:35, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In Indo-European languages that role is normally expressed by the instrumental or whatever other case it merged into, e.g. ablative in Latin, von + dative in German, and the monolithic "oblique"/"object" case in English. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 10:36, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, what I was really looking for was what case would be used in a language where case distinctions play a big role and are not vestigial as in English. Instrumental is what I was after. Lantzy : Lantzy 00:52, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

October 28

What does " venue locked in for" mean?

Sentence from here: ROH reportedly still has a venue locked in for a WrestleMania 38 Weekend event in Dallas next year, which would be the announced Supercard of Honor event that was mentioned for their return from hiatus in April 2022.

Wrestlemania 38 belongs to WWE and ROH is indy wresting promotion. That means ROH having tie up with WWE for Wrestlemania in Dallas next year? Rizosome (talk) 04:13, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are you really asking about what "venue locked in" means, or are you asking about the legal relationship between the various entities? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:16, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am asking what does " venue locked in for" mean? which answers me second question obviously. Rizosome (talk) 05:28, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See wikt:lock in, the second definition: "To fix the value of (something potentially variable)". In this case the variable would be the venue. Being locked in means the venue is fixed, with the implication is it will not change as "locked in" implies a final/permanent decision.--2A00:23C8:4583:9F01:ED85:5CF1:CA79:E964 (talk) 06:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Opposite to wikt:pencil in. 41.165.67.114 (talk) 07:00, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So ROH hosting WrestleMania 38 Weekend event in Dallas next year? Rizosome (talk) 07:01, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Locked in" simply means "booked" or "reserved". Why they had to use a phrase like "locked in" is open to question. They probably think it sounds a bit cool and edgy. --Viennese Waltz 07:28, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's as opposed to a tentative arrangement. --184.144.99.72 (talk) 08:01, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And "venue locked in for" is not a constituent phrase of the sentence. You can split it, as in

ROH reportedly still has a venue locked in — for a WrestleMania 38 Weekend event in Dallas next year.

So this tells us that ROH has a candidate venue for a WrestleMania 38 Weekend event next year, that this venue is in Dallas, and that they are keeping this venue booked. --Lambiam 08:18, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A candidate venue? So ROH have special show opposite Wrestlemania 38 weekend event at Dallas next year like WWE Supersized Smackdown opposite AEW Rampage? Rizosome (talk) 09:39, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. All this is saying is that ROH has reserved an arena to be used to run one of their own shows on the same weekend that WWE is running WrestleMania. --Khajidha (talk) 15:32, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Emphatic tense?

Is there a name for tense forms of the type "he did bring it to me", "she does help me with it" contrasted to the normal tenses "he brought it to me", "she helps me with it"? It may be similar to football punditry tense "what he's done is he's played the ball well into the centre and then Beckham's scored the goal", etc. 86.175.172.243 (talk) 09:55, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Periphrastic, I think. (Although I'm not sure if the article linked is very helpful.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:01, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Use of "do" for emphasis is covered in the article Do-support, section "Further uses", subsection "For emphasis". --T*U (talk) 14:15, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Informal South Wales English makes use of this construction, but not necessarily in an emphatic sense, e.g. "he do come round here, begging for food", "she did tell him not to bother", "they do go over there a lot just lately". The stress, however, usually falls on the main verb, e.g. "I do love a bag of chips", as an alternative to the more regular "I loves a bag of chips". Not sure if this is covered over at Do-support, or what it signifies. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:03, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"I loves a bag of chips"? Is the s a typo, or is it some idiosynchratic usage? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:21, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, certainly not a typo. That's very common in Newport and across all of South Wales. Wales, I loves it, alright bro? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:40, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the US often used in combination with "me": "I loves me a good Texas BBQ";^[1] "I loves me some queen".^[2] It is colloquial, but not quite "standard" English. --Lambiam 14:37, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes referred to as an emphatic form, mood, or tense [3]. These terms might be more used when teaching writing or English as a foreign language than in linguistics. --Amble (talk) 21:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly not a tense; I hesitate to call it an aspect, and hesitate more to call it a mood. —Tamfang (talk) 00:55, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kristjan

Do these two letters, i and j, in names like Kristjan sound differently? Thanks. Omidinist (talk) 16:02, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Presuming you mean Kristjan, which is a name in the Estonian language and Slovene language. According to Estonian orthography, the "i" character is the Close front unrounded vowel and the "j" character is the Voiced palatal approximant, roughly equivalent to the "ee" and the "y" sound in English, respectively. Slovene language#Writing system indicates they are similar in Solvene as well. --Jayron 32 16:17, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Omidinist (talk) 16:23, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'd assume the Icelandic name Kristján is pronounced similarly, since the combination stj, as in stjarna is pronounced like IPA /stj/. [4] 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:52, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it's /ˈkʰrɪstjauːn/, as the ‹á› represents a diphthong. --Theurgist (talk) 20:44, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

October 29

Trolling / Spamming

Would anybody know the specific term for when in a thread of a forum a group appears and garbages it quickly up with lots of simplistic messages so that relatively few quality messages (which apparently are against the ideas of the spammers/trolls) can hardly be found. Would be glad if anybody can help. Cheers, 202.87.166.165 (talk) 09:00, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We would term that, among other things, a forum invasion. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 09:05, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry, for a group made up of either one person using multiple identities or multiple people coordinating offsite. That describes the group rather than their behaviour, which I don't know a particular name for other than spam.--2A00:23C8:4583:9F01:3100:F932:7729:2EDF (talk) 10:26, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The closest thing I can think of is that the described behavior is a milder, more social version of a Denial-of-service attack. --Jayron 32 11:51, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Crapflooding"... AnonMoos (talk) 07:40, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The term is red-linked in our article Sporgery, but the verb to crapflood has an entry on Wiktionary. --Lambiam 12:58, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It would depend on what the purpose of the activity was. If it were some lonely, unhappy individual with no life whose purpose is to cause disruption/irritation/strife amongst others, then it is trolling. If it is meant to be promotional in nature (even in the most broadest of senses), then it is spamming. The line between the two concepts is somewhat fuzzy, and it is not always entirely clear when someone is a troll or a spammer; thus, the two terms are sometimes conflated (in particular "spamming" is often used by layfolk when the activity they're referring to would more accurately be called trolling). AFAIK, both terms sprang up more or less in the same time and space: Usenet in the '80s :). 2600:1702:4960:1DE0:89E2:777A:FA44:21A4 (talk) 06:37, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and also, in very informal usage, "spamming" can be used in a very broad sense to describe any kind of activity that floods a space with an obnoxious volume of material, with very little to no substance. This can include even an individual "spamming" another person with a flood of text messages, filled with, say, nothing but emojis and like or memes. In that sense it only describes the pattern of the activity and is neutral as to the purpose. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:4960:1DE0:89E2:777A:FA44:21A4 (talk) 06:49, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Stamps

On my desk, I have some postage stamps and a date stamp. Why does English use the same word for both? 2601:18A:C500:C00:DC7F:4998:B2C5:6CB8 (talk) 09:27, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The word origin might clarify it:[5] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:39, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As can be seen above, originally, stamps were applied directly to letters to be mailed. This was an inefficient system as it required the letter to be physically stamped by the postal agent. The system is described in some detail at London Penny Post which describes how it works. The stamp was later applied to adhesive paper so that customers could pre-purchase the stamps and apply them themselves (see Penny Black). While the stamp originally meant the process of applying ink to paper as we usually understand it, the definition got transferred to the adhesive paper itself. --Jayron 32 12:19, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and then we also got franking, which is different to the stamp (named after the stamping) and is on top of the stamp. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:30, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Words like franking are common internationally, though, while the sense of postage stamp seems to be unique to English. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:08, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Um, franking is an English word? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:27, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish has es:sello and es:sello postal. --Amble (talk) 19:17, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The English literal translation being "seal". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:00, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As a side note, "sello" is also used for "sticker", I've seen. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 06:52, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's a perfectly good English word, uncommon though it may be outside philatelic circles. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:26, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Signed, sealed and delivered." And don't forget Christmas Seals and Easter Seals. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:57, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll bet you haven't heard of the lesser-known Franking-stein's monster, a creature who wreaks havoc on unsuspecting letters. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:13, 30 October 2021 (UTC) [reply]

It's not very common. The general attitude among the great unwashed is, "Franking? My dear, I don't give a damn." Clarityfiend (talk) 09:53, 30 October 2021 (UTC) [reply]

I suspect the English verb is borrowed from German frankieren, originally meaning "to make free of duty", viz. by pre-paying the duty. The German verb is said to come from Italian francare, a verb related to the adjective franco, one of whose meanings is "free of duty". It also has this meaning in Dutch. --Lambiam 00:01, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to Collins Dictionary of the English Language (1979), Lambiam, it entered English in the 13th century from Old French franc, in turn from mediaeval Latin francus, meaning free as you surmised. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.65.29 (talk) 12:07, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Franking is a real word. Bankers use it too. Temerarius (talk) 01:51, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's become a well-known term Down Under among self-funded retirees, many of whom depend partially or entirely on receiving dividends from their franked investments (see Australian dividend imputation system). The issue came to a head in the 2019 Australian federal election when the opposition Labor Party proposed to abolish the practice of returning tax refund $$ into the pockets of investors who hadn't paid tax on those investments in the first place; while most could see the arguments put up, this was not popular even among Labor supporters, and it contributed to Labor's loss. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:19, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

October 31

Kola Kolaya Mundhirika

Hi, got another tough one you brilliant folks can hopefully help with. An editor has requested a translation of the title of the film "Kola Kolaya Mundhirika", from Tamil. Best I can come up with is something about Cashews, Cola & Murder--Jac16888 ^Talk 19:47, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here the phrase is translated as "Bunches and Bunches of Cashew Fruit" – I'd say, in English, "Lots and Lots of Cashews". It appears to be a children's game, seen played here. The relation of the game with the plot of the film is (sketchily) explained here. Although I found a use or two of கொல கொலயா (Kola Kolaya) not followed by முந்திரிக்கா (Mundhirika), these seemed to be word play off of the name of this children's game. A literal translation, if possible at all, seems pointless. The game appears very similar to a variation of Duck, duck, goose – which, literally translated to Tamil, will become equally incomprehensible. Semantically, Duck Duck Goose may be the best approximation achievable if you want a a meaning-preserving translation. --Lambiam 21:51, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see that there is an American animated comedy film with the name Duck Duck Goose. --Lambiam 21:58, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

November 1

AoM hero names

Playing Age of Mythology again (because I can't play Age of Empires IV even if I wanted to; my computer's too old). Been replaying the campaign stories, and now I'm very curious in the possible origins or etymologies of some of the hero names, and maybe why the Ensemble Studios crew chose them, specifically the ones conceived for the game (since Reginleif, Setna, Ajax, Chiron, Brokkr and Eitri, etc. are already derived from their respective mythos). So the names I'm interested in are "Amanra", "Theris", "Gargarensis" and his two servants "Kamos" and "Kemsyt", "Skult", "Niordsir", "Folstag", "Zethos", "Zeno", "Melagius", "Misenus", "Krios", "Kastor", and of course the main man himself, "Arkantos". I'll list what I do know, and my thoughts on what I don't:

Amanra: My instant thought was a modernised feminine form of Amun-Ra. If I really want to pull some straws, aman is also apparently the Berber and Nubian word for "water" (e.g. Aman dawū, the Nubian name for the River Nile)
Theris: This one is simple. Most likely comes from θήρ (thḗr) or θηρῐ́ον (thēríon), "wild, savage animal". Makes sense since he's a jackal priest.
Gargarensis: As a kid, I always thought his name came from something meaning "to gargle". γαργαρίζω (gargarízo) seems to support this at least on a skin-deep level, as do the Romance languages via Latin gargarisma. Alternatively, it could be derived from Gargara, or perhaps amusingly, gargalesis, "to tickle or irritate".
Kamos: I got nothing sensible for this one. Directly searching for "kamos" gave me either a Hunnic word for "barley", or an Arabic word for "dictionary". That Arabic word (قَامُوس (qāmūs)) seems to be a closer bet thematically, as it also means "ocean", and this character is a pirate.
Kemsyt: I had an idea that a reconstructed Egyptian form of this name would be something like kmst, so "black-something", I guess.
Skult: This old man is an avatar of Loki in disguise, so the past-participle form of Norwegian skule ("to scowl, frown, or look at with contempt") makes some sense. There is also the Danish and Norwegian skjule ("to hide, conceal") and the English skulk.
Niordsir: Very certain this one is mostly made up. "Niord", as far as I can tell, is just another reading of the ocean Vanir god Njördr.
Folstag: This one confused me a bit because the only "king of the frost giants" figures I was aware of were Thrymr and Utgarda-Loki. So since this giant does not have a basis in any existing myth, I figure this etymology attempt would end up rather silly too. fyls ("foal") + one of the many meanings of tag would suffice enough I guess.
Zethos: This guy was surprisingly easy. He apparently shares his name with one of the supposed founders of Thebes.
Zeno: Just like Zethos, this guy is a minor character who's only name-dropped once. I am familiar with Zeno being a very common Greek name, and an in-game cheat code is named after Zeno's paradox. What I wasn't familiar with though, is the fact that it is a variant of another name, Zenon...
Melagius: I'm not sure if this name has a Greek basis. I found Italian mela ("apple") or melagrana ("pomegranate") to make a little more sense than anything else I've found. melãgis is a Lithuanian word and melangiós is Catalan. There's also the Roman proper nomen Melanius.
Krios: The Atlantean theocrat is named after a Titan. Very straightforward, considering what happens to him.
Kastor: If he's not named after the Dioscuri twin, then I got nothing.
Arkantos: I always find myself going back to the word "arcane" for his name. From Latin arcānus, I found the Greek cognate ᾰ̓ρκέω (arkéō)("to aid, defend, hold out, or be strong enough"), and in turn, ἀρκετός (arketós)("to be sufficient")
Misenus/Mineus: This is an interesting case because he is a character who isn't actually in the game proper. He was originally the main hero during Age of Mythology's development until he was replaced by Arkantos. While he is known as "Misenus" (character of the Aeneid) in-game, the map editor calls him "Mineus" or "Minaeus". A note from excerpt 8 of this chapter of Plutarch's Moralia says that "Minaeus" was one of several Greek readings of the pharaoh Menes. I've got no idea where "Mineus" comes from.

There is also one type of trainable unit added to the Norse in Tale of the Dragon, called "bogsveigir". The game claims that the word literally means "bow-swayer" in Old Norse, in the sense of an archer. Browsing through Wiktionary gives me bogmaður from Icelandic (literally bogi ("bow") + maður ("male", "man")) and Norwegian bueskytter/bogeskyttar, both presumably coming from the same roots. So I'm not really sure where -veigir comes from. I did find Faerose sveiggja and Norwegian svaie under sway though.

Any revisions/suggestions would be appreciated. Oh and I hope everyone had a safe Halloween/All Saints Day. --72.234.12.37 (talk) 09:27, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As for the last question, the word bogsveigir would have to be split with -sveigir (not -veigir), from Old Norse sveigja, meaning to bend, sway or more specifically "sveigja boga": to bend (draw) the bow. --T*U (talk) 11:45, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That makes total sense, thank you! Does this word have any relation to Gungnir, by any chance? Apparently its etymology is not very well known, to the point where it doesn't have its own Wiktionary article, at least compared to Mjöllnir. --72.234.12.37 (talk) 03:00, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No relation in an etymological sense, at least. I have not found any reliable etymology of Gungnir, it is just presented as the name of the spear. From Gylfaginning: Ríðr fyrstr Óðinn með gullhjálminn ok fagra brynju ok geir sinn, er Gungnir heitir. “Odin [Wotan] rides in front with the golden helmet and beautiful chain mail and his spear, which is called Gungnir.“ --T*U (talk) 10:23, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Gungnir" means "the swaying one", according to the article. Swedish has the similar verb "gunga", meaning "to swing, to rock". 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 17:33, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that neither the verb "gungre" (called 'an obscure Danish verb' – also in Norwegian, but equally obscure), nor the Swedish verb "gunga" (and "gynge" in Danish and Norwegian) have any etymology stretching back to Old Norse, so that explanation is at best dubious, at worst pure fantasy. --T*U (talk) 18:36, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The source cited is apparently
Orchard, Andy (1997). Dictionary of Norse Myth and Legend. Cassell. ISBN 0-304-34520-2
but I don't know how to get access to it. Looking up the words "gunga" and "gynge" in Scandinavian dictionaries yield various results, one theory being that it's derived from some onomatopoeia or interjection, one theory being that it's somehow derived from the Germanic root *gang- (walk, gait). Although Elof Hellquist explicitly states that the *gang- theory is incorrect. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:02, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I can't access Orchard either. However, as you say, no dictionary in any of the Scandinavian languages seem to make a connection back to Old Norse, a language with a very well attested vocabulary, so I do not see how 'Gungnir' can be connected. --T*U (talk) 20:26, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is a copy of Orchard in Z-Library, and it has an entry on "Gungnir", but I don't see an etymology of the name. It apparently is used in the poem Hávamál and in the poetry of Bragi Boddason. There are similar runes on spears according to the poem Sigrdrífumál.-gadfium 21:03, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For Folstag, Marvel Comics has Volstagg, inspired by the Shakespeare character Falstaff. I'm not sure if all of these would be based on attested myths, however, many could be in-jokes. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:55, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just looking up similar roots and tweaking the name somewhat, "Folistaug" would mean "Foal's rope" and "Folistagl" "Foal's tail hair", I think, which sorta makes sense, but might still not be credible as a name. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:23, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see now that there was an actual Gargarean tribe in Greek mythology. I also thought about Gargantua. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 13:26, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That is a very interesting find, it matches Gargarensis's name almost perfectly! I never thought the Amazons would need a direct counterpart tribe, considering most of human society in antiquity was male-dominated anyway.

And yeah, you raise a good thought in that many of these names could've started or prevailed as inside jokes among the Ensemble Studios crew, much like the in-game cheat codes or the multiplayer taunts. While it is true that I'm mostly doing this for fun and curiosity, the only reason I'm maintaining a persistent attitude about the whole "based on attested myths" part is that, while yes, the game was made primarily for entertainment value (considering there are three Abrahamic units and the Egyptians were forced to borrow several creatures from Mesopotamian myths, as well as the Greek phoenix, because most of their creatures are basic representations of other deites such as a winged cobra for Wadjet, a giant scarab for Khepri, and a "petsuchos" for Sobek), it nevertheless retains its other half that keeps a grounded basis in established myths, legends, and known cultural conventions, even if the Atlanteans are just Romans/Etruscans with Greek Titans superimposed onto them. Hell, imagine my surprise when I found out that scorpion men were an actual mythical creature, not just a thing from a cheesy action film! --72.234.12.37 (talk) 03:00, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

November 2

"Winning" an argument by action

What's that phrase for doing a controversial thing that's difficult if not impossible to undo, and so you win by default the argument of whether it should be done? —151.132.206.250 (talk) 00:45, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Cutting the Gordian knot"? --~ Orangemike

Fait accompli? Iapetus (talk) 09:27, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(OP at different location) That's the one! Thanks all! —96.8.24.95 (talk) 02:45, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"I rest my case" ? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:10, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dialog doubt in Sling Blade

Doyle speaks about bible:

Doyle: I can't understand none of it.

What does this double negative sentence mean? Rizosome (talk) 01:04, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We typically call this "non-standard English". Two negatives are still negative in many "non-standard" varieties of English (see Double negative#Two or more negatives resolving to a negative). Here, in "standard" English, it simply means "I can't understand any of it". Adam Bishop (talk) 01:12, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are you going to acknowledge Bishop's response, or are you going to plow ahead to the next thing? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This Double negative#Two or more negatives resolving to a negative solved my doubt. Rizosome (talk) 14:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Very good. And be aware that the double-negative is very common in English, despite being improper grammar. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:35, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I remember a wonderful triple-negative from a Western-film, must have been back in the 70's: “I won't sell no weapons to no injuns.” Not exactly "standard", but the meaning is certainly not lost. --T*U (talk) 13:00, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What if double negatives are not side by side like this:

Karl: I don't think nothing bad oughta happen to children.

What does "don't think nothing" mean? Rizosome (talk) 01:58, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The same as "don't think anything". The "anything" goes with "bad". Clarityfiend (talk) 03:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I was also a bit confused about the parsing of the sentence. "I don't think (that) anything bad ought to happen to children." 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:40, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The alphabet

What is the origin of the english alphabet and what is the basis for the letter arrangment? If it is derivative of another alphabet, what is the origin of same? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:CF50:91E0:E1E1:9A14:FAE7:A3F3 (talk) 02:54, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The modern English alphabet was derived (more like borrowed) from the Latin alphabet, which in turn descended from the Greek alphabet, which in turn descended from the Phoenician alphabet, which was most likely the first known such example of what we could call an "alphabet", instead of a logogram, which is what written Chinese and Egyptian hieroglyphics are considered. In fact, the word "alphabet" comes from a compound of the first two letters of the Greek alphabet: Alpha and Beta.

On a related side note, the old English alphabet was a set of runes collectively called Futhorc, until they were Christianised and adopted the Latin alphabet from that influence. "Old English" is otherwise known as "Anglo-Saxon". --72.234.12.37 (talk) 03:19, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia has an article titled History of the alphabet, and then has additional links for you to follow on from there, such as History of the Latin script and English alphabet#History. --Jayron 32 11:26, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) We have an article English alphabet, which explains it is a Latin alphabet. Our article Latin alphabet has extensive information on its history; even more is found in History of the Latin alphabet and the more general History of the alphabet. The current arrangement dates from Roman times; it was originally based on that of the Phoenician alphabet from which it descended, which has even older origins in the Proto-Sinaitic script: see History of the alphabet § Letter names and order. I'm not aware of a particular reason for the specific Phoenician order, also found in North Semitic abecedaries of the Ugaritic alphabet; someone, some thirty-five centuries ago, must have been the first to write out the collection of signs in some order, possibly not chosen for any specific reason, and others later just kept copying it. The letters Y and Z appear at the end of the Classical Latin alphabet, being late additions copied from the Greek alphabet to aid in the transcription of Greek words containing sounds not found in Latin. The article Latin script also mentions later developments, such as letter case – the Ancient Romans would not have recognized their letter G in the current minuscule g. --Lambiam 11:53, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for the order of the original version(s) of the alphabet was discussed a while back on an academic linguistics site, and apparently nobody knows. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.225.31 (talk) 19:23, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As a digression, the Runic alphabet is clearly derived from one of the Mediterranean alphabets in the "Greco-Latin" family, but the letter order is completely different, as if the Norsemen picked up the writing system indirectly, instead of being taught the "correct" order by a teacher. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

2600:1700:CF50:91E0:E1E1:9A14:FAE7:A3F3 -- See the tables at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2012_March_8#Alphabetical_order ... AnonMoos (talk) 22:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

东南大学出版社

What does 东南大学出版社 mean? Google Translate says it means "FD" without explaining. It's the name of a book publishing company. 74.98.192.38 (talk) 20:32, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to be the Southeast University Press. --Wrongfilter (talk) 20:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) It's "dōngnán dàxué chūbǎn shè", literally "South-East University Publishing House" or "Southeast University Press", apparently a publisher associated with Southeast University, Nanjing. No idea where the abbreviation "FD" comes from though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:44, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bing Translate gets it right though. Alansplodge (talk) 22:07, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

German-speakers avoiding the word Nazi

I've noticed on the German Wikipedia that the word Nazi is rarely used when discussing Nazism, the Third Reich, etc. They prefer the initialism NS, or the full adjective Nationalsozialistisch. Is the word "Nazi" considered very informal in German? Why is it avoided in an encyclopedic context? Lantzy : Lantzy 22:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is colloquial, but not very informal. An issue may be that in German the word "Nazi" is purely a noun. In English you can use a noun as the head of an open (two-word) compound noun almost as if it is an adjective: London pub, landscape architect, plane crash. In German you can't do that; you either have to use a true adjective (Londoner Pub) or form a closed (one-word) compound (''Landschaftsarchitekt, Flugzeugabsturz). So the word Nazi as a stand-alone word means a member of the NSDAP, and not more generally something associated with that party or its ideology and program. You can use Nazi-Ideology^[6] or Naziideologie,^[7] written without a space, for "Nazi ideology". --Lambiam 23:52, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In Swedish, as a comparison, there are the words "nazism", "nazist" (noun) and "nazistisk" (adjective). Theoretically, German should allow similar words, but it seems like they just didn't go that route. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:06, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did Germany ever use the term "Nazi" by itself, or is that more of a western media invention? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:40, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I heard that it was originally a slur picked up by the Left Wing opposition, or something like that. Apparently, it could be a nickname for Ignatz, and the Left Wing thought it was a sterotype name for the early disgruntled rural supporters of the party, or something to that extent. The Nazi party tried half-heartedly to pick up the term to neutralize it, but totalitarian fascists often have a slight problem with the necessary self-irony to pull off such stunts... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 02:51, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sort of interesting that (as I understand it) the Soviets also did not like to call them Nazis, lest people associate the latter with socialism. They preferred to call them (not totally inaccurately but somewhat imprecisely) "fascists". Fascism sensu stricto was an Italian phenomenon. The fascists and the Nazis had many points of commonality but also some rather marked differences, especially in regard to the Jews. --Trovatore (talk) 03:22, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And in Polish, the words nazista (noun) and nazistowski (adjective) are used, but hitlerowiec (noun) and hitlerowski (adj.) are more common equivalents (although this seems to be changing among the younger generations, probably due to English-language influence). — Kpalion^(talk) 10:43, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to this article:

Members of the party referred to themselves as Nationalsozialisten (National Socialists), rarely as Nazis. The word “Nazi” was in use before the rise of the party as a colloquial and derogatory word for a backward peasant, an awkward and clumsy person. References to “Nazi Germany” and the “Nazi regime” were popularized by anti-Nazis and German exiles abroad.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:44, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

November 3

Demonyms

Is it true that demonyms of U.S. states are used only as predicatives, and not attributes, i.e. not Ohioan man, only Ohioan? --40bus (talk) 09:37, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If there is such a rule, the memo has not reached all writers' desks: "Alabaman resident",^[8] "Alaskan woods",^[9] "Arizonan desert",^[10] ..., "Wyomingite mentality".^[11] --Lambiam 12:16, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But as a general rule, yes it's true. If I saw something like "Arizonan desert" or "Californian oranges" I'd guess the writer was British. --184.145.50.17 (talk) 15:49, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In American English, it is common, but not universal, to use the Noun adjunct (aka the attributive noun) rather than the adjective, in most cases. Thus, "California voters" is more common than "Californian voters", but "I met a Californian the other day" is standard as well. Use of the form "Californian voters" is not wrong, but only slightly marked. You can see here from Google ngrams, that the adjective form "Californian voters" is known, but MUCH rarer than "California voters". --Jayron 32 16:00, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's a British English thing. Bazza (talk) 16:02, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

According to the same source it is just as much a US English thing. --Lambiam 17:18, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Californian voters" is not exactly wrong, but "California voters" is much more idiomatic. --Trovatore (talk) 17:36, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The exception that comes to mind is "Hawaiian". Of course that one is an exception in other ways because of its dual sense (relating to the state, or relating to the descendants of the indigenous population) but I'm not convinced that's the full explanation. --Trovatore (talk) 17:41, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The full explanation is "language is inconsistent often, and there is often no reason why some word or phrase does not follow a general rule". --Jayron 32 18:12, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the specific example given, "Ohioan" and "Ohio man" (or woman) would be equivalent. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:38, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But it would mark you as a dang furriner that done talk funny. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:44, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not in Ohio it wouldn't. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:09, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also not in Michigan: "Ohioan male".^[12] --Lambiam 11:14, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just to remind everyone, just because you can find an example (or even two or three) does not mean it is standard usage. Ohioan male does not even register in ngrams. That one can be found is both unsurprising and irrelevant to the main question at hand. It still is not standard usage. --Jayron 32 14:53, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

November 4

Chiang Chung-Cheng

According to our article on Chiang Kai-shek, at some point of his life, changed his name from Jiang Zhiqing to Chiang Chung-cheng. Now, from a foreign point of view, it may look/sound very similar to an ethnic slur (see Ching chong chang). Does it sound strange, funny or peculiar from a native perspective? Is it common for Chinese names to have similar repetitions of sounds? Any insight is welcome. Thank you. --195.62.160.60 (talk) 14:16, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, the cited source does NOT mention any name change. It only mentions the second name. I'll tag the statement as it is not verified as yet.--Jayron 32 14:50, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article: Order of Chiang Chung-Cheng, which mentions that Chiang Chung-Cheng is the Chinese name of President Chiang Kai-shek; citation: https://web.archive.org/web/20170415023613/http://english.president.gov.tw/Default.aspx?tabid=446 --107.15.157.44 (talk) 20:49, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 259: / Line 259: @@
 According to our article on [[Chiang Kai-shek]], at some point of his life, ''changed his name from Jiang Zhiqing to Chiang Chung-cheng''. Now, from a foreign point of view, it may look/sound very similar to an ethnic slur (see [[Ching chong|Ching chong chang]]). Does it sound strange, funny or peculiar from a native perspective? Is it common for Chinese names to have similar repetitions of sounds? Any insight is welcome. Thank you. --[[Special:Contributions/195.62.160.60|195.62.160.60]] ([[User talk:195.62.160.60|talk]]) 14:16, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
 :Interestingly, the [https://english.president.gov.tw/Page/83 cited source] does NOT mention any name change.  It only mentions the second name.  I'll tag the statement as it is not verified as yet.--[[User:Jayron32|<span style="color:#009">Jayron</span>]][[User talk:Jayron32|<b style="color:#090">''32''</b>]] 14:50, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
+::We have an article: [[Order of Chiang Chung-Cheng]], which mentions that Chiang Chung-Cheng is the Chinese name of President Chiang Kai-shek; citation: https://web.archive.org/web/20170415023613/http://english.president.gov.tw/Default.aspx?tabid=446 --[[Special:Contributions/107.15.157.44|107.15.157.44]] ([[User talk:107.15.157.44|talk]]) 20:49, 4 November 2021 (UTC)