Talk:Tina Turner

Discussing again for Tina's lede to be "American-Swiss/Swiss-American"?

Following a somewhat similar situation with actress Liu Yifei, who because of Chinese citizenship laws, only had American citizenship because they don't recognize dual citizenship/nationality, there was a consensus to describe her as being "Chinese-American", because although she now only has American citizenship, she was born and most active in China. So, I don't see why Turner can't be described as being "American-Swiss". Following the Context section: "Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Its already been established that she was born and raised in America, had American citizenship for around 70+ years of her life, and was most famous there. So I don't see why she can't have "American-Swiss" or "Swiss-American" as her lede with a note explaining that she had given up her American citizenship in 2013. Describing her as "American-born" seems to deny the fact that she was most notable as an American singer and had American citizenship for the majority of her life. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 18:29, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

She is not "American-Swiss" nor "Swiss-American", she does not hold dual citizenship, she is Swiss. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 19:41, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Tbhotch - Well, if you read my post, actress Liu Yifei isn't Chinese, she only holds American citizenship but gets described as being "Chinese-American". And actor Max von Sydow only gets described as being "Swedish" in the lede even though he only had French citizenship from 2002 till the day he died. I also pointed out that Wiki guidelines states that "previous nationalities or place of birth shouldn't be mentioned unless they're relevant to the subjects notability", and she was most famous as an American prior. But I see that in this case, the consensus seems to be "American-born Swiss", which I still find odd and wanted to discuss again. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 04:43, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

(e/c) This has been discussed before, many times, and the least bad description in the circumstances seems to be "American-born Swiss". Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:45, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Ghmyrtle - Pardon for tagging you, but looking at the past discussions I don't understand why "American-born Swiss" was decided as the consensus, especially the one that's "least bad". I thought Wiki guidelines explicitly state that past nationalities should be mentioned if they are notable to the subject's notability so "American-Swiss" would be the most logical. As I mentioned, as an example, that's the reason why Liu Yifei was described as being "Chinese-American" and not "Chinese-born American" even though she doesn't have Chinese citizenship, only American because of Chinese nationality laws. And the consensus for Max von Sydow was that he should be described as being "Swedish-French", because although he only held French citizenship from 2002 till the day he died, he was born and raised in Sweden and held only Swedish citizenship before giving that up to become French. There are countless other Wikipedia pages which similar situations like those two aforementioned people. So I'm still kind of confused and wanted to discuss again, EDIT: Although I'm aware that the difference between the two aforementioned people and Tina Turner is that they didn't renounce their previous citizenship, but lost them either due to the countries laws or in the process of applying for a new one, I still think that her being American is just too important to her notability to only state that she's "American-born". Clear Looking Glass (talk) 04:59, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

For me, I don't think "American" is appropriate because she did not lose her citizenship either by operation of law or in order to take on a new one; rather, she renounced it pointedly. That is the distinction for me. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 05:01, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I guess the big difference I'm still overlooking is that she renounced her U.S citizenship, as opposed to the other two examples, who lost their previous citizenship either because they relinquished it or could not have dual citizenship because of a countries laws. But I still feel that since she was most famous for being an American singer, was American for over 70 years and that is also where she was born and raised in, that she should have "American" in her lede, not "American-born". Clear Looking Glass (talk) 05:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

There are two relevant factors here. One, she was born in the US, and was American when she became and remained a notable person through her activities. To the world at large, and setting aside the legal position (which is only really of interest to lawyers), she is essentially American. Two, she now (in the later part of her life, and unconnected to anything that made her a notable person) has Swiss nationality. She should not be described as "American-Swiss", which is a term which would suggest that she is a member of a wider "American-Swiss" group of people (such as, say, "Chinese-American"). That is why the best short summary we can have is "American-born Swiss". Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:47, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

• I've slightly amended the lead for clarity to ".... is an American-born singer, songwriter, and actress, who changed her citizenship to Swiss in 2013", which explains the situation. SilkTork (talk) 16:40, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

This strikes me as a good way to convey the information, thank you. My only qualm is about whether we need to say she renounced U.S. citizenship, but that doesn't need to be in the lead. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 17:15, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree, I think the last sentence of her renouncing her citizenship should be removed from the lede if it's already mentioned that she changed her citizenship in 2013 at the beginning.--Twixister (talk) 20:13, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

@SilkTork: - Thank you. The change in wording definitely clarifies her situation. I don't know why I didn't think about asking about that haha. Also, I agree with the users above. Because the lede sentence mentions her change in citizenship in 2013, then the last sentence mentioning that she renounced her citizenship seems unneeded. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 23:57, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Opinion on the nationality issue

Just leave it as American and add an invisible note that she became notable while she was American, like Helen Mirren. --188.143.109.174 (talk) 14:47, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Hello IP. I understand the suggestion, but for me, this is a non-starter since the subject pointedly renounced her American citizenship. I'd be more amenable if she had either retained it or it had ceased due to operation of law, but these are not the facts. I think we need to respect Ms. Turner's actions on the matter. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 14:59, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

BBC Radio 5 Live's producer today said she is "half-Swiss". 2.28.151.243 (talk) 18:21, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

This sounds to me like a garbled effort to explain her Swiss citizenship. In and of itself, I don't see it as reason to change anything on this page. Reasonable minds may differ, however. Cheers! Dumuzid (talk) 21:19, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, the wording seems odd. Technically, Turner is not "half-Swiss", either ethnically or citizenship wise. She only holds Swiss citizenship after relinquishing her American passport. Per the most recent discussion, it seems like several users agreed with having her lede say "American-born" and then her citizenship situation is explained in the last paragraph of her lede section. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 17:54, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Like many Americans themselves, she became a citizen of her adoptive country by naturalization. Their birth countries may wish to claim them, and they may be from there but that's about it. Tina Turner is a naturalized Swiss.

She’s not Swiss

Just because someone renounced their citizenship doesn’t mean that’s what they ethnically are. She is a Swiss citizen but she is American. Sense when we’re we confusing nationality with ethnicity. Article needs to be edited to be made clear the difference. 2601:40B:8400:AD10:B9A6:3828:509B:A906 (talk) 22:36, 30 November 2021 (UTC)