Talk:Cleopatra

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 11 January 2022 and 6 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): BsKulp (article contribs).

Block

Semi-protected edit request on 26 December 2021

" Plutarch provides an entirely different and perhaps mythical account that alleges she was bound inside a bed sack to be smuggled into the palace to meet Caesar.[127][132][133][note 33] " add actual Plutarch source (Plut. Vit. Caes. 49.1) ((http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plut.+Caes.+49&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0244)) "she stretched herself at full length inside a bed-sack" (Plutarch. Plutarch's Lives. with an English Translation by. Bernadotte Perrin. Cambridge, MA. Harvard University Press. London. William Heinemann Ltd. 1919. 7. is citation) Braw 420 (talk) 21:37, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Secondary sources are preferred. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:34, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

The notes section of the article would be littered with Plutarch passages and those of other ancient sources if we provided direct primary source quotations every time an event is described in the article. The bed sack thing is honestly not important enough to warrant that, in my opinion. The average reader will already have a difficult time navigating through all the notes and the vast majority of readers will not utilize them. Pericles of Athens^Talk 11:17, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Apologies for late reply, but surely instead of citing 3 secondary sources - which just cite the source I posted - it would be best to just post the primary source, that of Plutarch? Surely this simplifies the notes section by getting rid of three secondary sources which just themselves reference Plutarch Braw 420 (talk) 03:07, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

No. Wikipedia guidelines are firmly against that (see for instance the recent "Featured Article Review" for the article on Pericles). Wikipedia articles on history should reflect the consensus positions of modern scholarship, i.e. secondary sources. Ancient primary sources are to be used sparingly and in proper context, such as a direct quote from a primary source if it is somehow needed. Pericles of Athens^Talk 09:15, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Affair with Caesar in lead

Caesar declared Cleopatra and her brother Ptolemy XIV joint rulers but maintained a private affair with Cleopatra... You can only maintain something that is already there. Yet, in the lead, the affair is suddenly there. Should we change "maintained" to "started"? PizzaMan ♨♨♨ 00:09, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

The word choice is fine, actually, especially since the same sentence mentions the birth of their child Caesarion. Pericles of Athens^Talk 00:39, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

That means that both the child and the affair are suddenly there. PizzaMan ♨♨♨ 22:29, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

That's a rather rigid way to look at it; are you a native speaker of English? There's honestly nothing wrong with saying they maintained an affair, which is what they did. Pericles of Athens^Talk 13:34, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

what does the phrase "consorting directly with Caesar" mean? How about saying it in plain English? – Sca (talk) 13:12, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

It is already in plain English. You've never heard the fairly common phrase "consorting with the enemy"? To consort: habitually associate with (someone), typically with the disapproval of others. I think it's pretty fair to say Ptolemy XIII (and his eunuch handlers) disapproved of Cleopatra VII plotting and flirting with Caesar in the royal palace. The sentence in question sounds fine to me: "When Ptolemy XIII realized that his sister was in the palace consorting directly with Caesar, he attempted to rouse the populace of Alexandria into a riot, but he was arrested by Caesar, who used his oratorical skills to calm the frenzied crowd." If you have a better suggestion feel free to offer it, and perhaps do so without being slightly rude. Thanks. Pericles of Athens^Talk 13:34, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Physical locations

I have been doing a lot of work to get done what needs but without a plan to get together soon I will be uncertain of any communication