Talk:Race and intelligence

Does the FAQ above this talk page need more citation?

I think the FAQ above this talk page need more citation. GUT412454 (talk) 10:42, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Ashkenazi intelligence

Ok, so I read this pathetic outpour in the 'net about how wikipedia is wrong and blahblah. And also that it censores science. I wouldn't want to see Wikipedia censor science, so I decided to take a look.

In a deletion discussion (one of many), there was one very sound argument for deleting it: the same could be covered by Race and Intelligence, and should be, since not every fringe theory deserves its own page. All good. HOWEVER, this page doesn't mention the theory at all! So, on to find if the scientific sources listed in a late version of the article are found, here's four that seem prominent (peer-reviewed, published):

I think it would serve Wikipedia well to critique these sources, and salvage into this article what can be salvaged, about the clearly existing and notable "exceptional Ashkenazi genetic intelligence" theory.

-- Sigmundur (talk) 12:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC) Sigmundur (talk) 12:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

You have linked a discussion from 2007, which closed as no consensus. I suggest you read the latest AfD discussion instead. [11]. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:54, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

The Quillette article you linked is, at the very best, dishonest. At worst, it's a steaming pile of bullshit used to advocate racism. Happy (Slap me) 13:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

• Quillette, per WP:RSP, is not a reliable source for facts. Obviously we're not going to change our articles in response to their opinions. The sources you've published are largely fringe - the first one is a book review that specifically describes the book as unreliable and controversial, summarizing its argument as limited and biased. The second barely intelligence, and only in passing. The third is the very book that your first source dismisses as trash. The final one is... Richard Lynn, most notable for his work at Mankind Quarterly, the journal of scientific racism. This is the sort of unreliable, unscientific nonsense you get when you search for sources to back up a culture-war-trash source like Quillette. If that's all you can drudge up in support of their nonsense, it's certainly not notable. --Aquillion (talk) 18:32, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Oh god, I came here to talk about this very thing and it looks like someone was already doing it. Does anyone know why there is no mention of Ashklenazi Jews in this article? Also, in the section on test scores, I think we should differentiate between South Asians and East Asians. Asian is a term that is too broad, it encompasses everyone from Syrians to Koreans.TheHaberProcess (talk) 18:11, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Maybe you should not just check that somebody is discussing this but also read what they write? They write that the sources are crap. Without useable sources, we cannot mention the subject. The same holds for Asians. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:51, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Just noticed that this was a bit unfair since the last contribution saying the sources are crap was newer than the "oh god" contribution. Still, there you have the reason. --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:01, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

When I added it I added it with this source. It looks OK to me. I also found it odd the article does not mention Ashkenazi Jews at all because our are widely debated by people who study this.

That's a passing mention in a book review (again). These sorts of sources just don't support the assertion that this is an important aspect of the subject. --Aquillion (talk) 20:34, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Originally I cited Forbes, I did not quite understand why it was not reliable in this context. But there is a plethora of sources, forgive me, I just put the links because proper formatting is too much work, but :

Vox: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/12/30/21042733/bret-stephens-jewish-iq-new-york-times

AEI: https://www.aei.org/articles/the-2011-nobel-prize-and-the-debate-over-jewish-iq/

NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/opinion/jewish-culture-genius-iq.html

Also, it is important that we talk about Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, because there are so many anti-semitic conspiracy theories out there based on the overrepresentation of the Jews high positions, but that is shown to be bonkers once you simply control for IQ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheHaberProcess (talk • contribs) 20:48, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources. For content concerning scientific topics, we don't cite Vox, the American Enterprise Institute, or op-eds in the NYT. And no, it isn't even remotely necessary to 'control for IQ' to refute antisemitic conspiracy theories, any more than it is necessary to 'control for the non-existence of shape-shifting lizards' to refute similar theories concerning the New World Order, the Illuminati, or mind-control through 5G WiFi. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:05, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

But Vox and NYTimes are already cited in this article. And I think your example proves my point, it is precisely because shape-shifting lizards do not exist that those conspiracy theories are bonkers. I think your example is more about the fact that most people already know that those lizards do not exist, so there is no need to even mention it to show to most people those theories are silly. In the case of Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, this is well known among ourselves, but the public at large is not so well informed. If they were though, they would have a retort when some nutjob comes to them talking about how X or Y percent of the bankers are Jewish. TheHaberProcess (talk) 21:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Here is just another couple of examples of how salient this topic is, among psychologists, and among ourselves.

Jordan Peterson: https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/right-wing-personality-on-jewish-question-ashkenazim-have-high-iq-547159

Stephen Pinker: https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes

TheHaberProcess (talk) 21:46, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

This article does not exist to refute conspiracy theories, especially ones unrelated or tangentially-related to intelligence, and it is an insult to our intelligence that editors would believe that is the reason it is proposed to include content about the intelligence of Ashkenazi Jews. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:06, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

I still do not understand why you guys are against inclusion of this content. The topic has been discussed in a wide range of sources, a lot of which seem very OK to me, some of whom are cited in this very article. And the topic is not tangentially-related, it is at the core of the issue. An article about race and intelligence should mention the most intelligent race, just as an article about dog breed intelligence would be remiss if there was no mention of the border collie.TheHaberProcess (talk) 22:22, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Jewish culture is focussed on learning, thinking and discussing. It is known that actually using your brain increases your competence at using it, and therefore the consensus is that any higher intelligence of Ashkenazi already has a very good explanation.

The Pinker source you quote says, This does not imply that differences between groups are also genetic, since one group may experience a difference across the board, such as in wealth, discrimination, or social and cultural capital and CH&H's evidence is circumstantial and But all the hypotheses would have to be true for the theory as a whole to be true--and much of the evidence is circumstantial, and the pivotal hypothesis is the one for which they have the least evidence. So, you claim Ashkenazi Jews are the most intelligent race, but the very source you quote regards this as highly dubious. (I did not check Peterson because he is a crappy source - most psychoanalysts do not understand how science works, and Peterson definitely does not. He talks a lot of Dunning-Krugerish nonsense about evolution too.)

It is not enough that sources seem very OK to you. They must also seem very OK to the people here who are familiar with the subject, and the subject needs to be relevant enough. They have tried to explain why. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:29, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree, I think the relevant factor is Jewish moms, have you heard you are only Jewish if your mom is Jewish? The status of the father is irrelevant. I can get the ref for you if you like, but I heard Paul Bloomn in his psychology lectures saying that the fact that IQ seems to vary more by social conditions, like, whether you were born to a Jewish mother or father, as an argument against hereditarianism. It is not what you would expect if it were genetic, given you get half genes from mom and dad. I am not endorsing Pinker's or Peterson's or Bloom's views on anything for that matter, I am just saying the topic is salient enough for lots of high profile psychologists and even geneticists to discuss it.

I am thinking of Adam Rutherford: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/a-book-that-could-save-lives-adam-rutherford-s-how-to-argue-with-a-racist-reviewed

It is therefore worth mentioning TheHaberProcess (talk) 07:07, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Paul Bloom speaks about it from 47:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piDznzrNymE&list=PL6A08EB4EEFF3E91F&index=13 TheHaberProcess (talk) 07:23, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

I suggest we phrase it like this, just after the first paragraph in "test scores":

The evidence is less comprehensive for other groups in the US. According to a number of secondary sources, Ashkenazi Jews are have an average IQ that is between a half and a full standard deviation above the mean for white gentiles.(sources) However, the primary research on the topic is wanting and said advantage seems to be more associated with how individuals are regarded rather than their genetic make up.(Bloom source here) Indian Americans are also a group with high average educational and occupational attainment. There is some preliminary evidence that their average IQ is roughly on a pair with that of Ashkenazi Jews.(if not Forbes, maybe this book: US-India Forward Leap—The Partnership Building - Page 140, or both)

Quillette article

Pretty fun. https://quillette.com/2022/07/18/cognitive-distortions/ - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:30, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

See the section above. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:55, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Short description

Our article's prior short description was: "Discussions and claims of differences in intelligence along racial lines."

I edited it to to read: "Differences in average intelligence between races."

My explanation: "Per WP:VIA WP:VAI, replaced vague, unhelpful, and musteline short description… Removed "discussions of" as this is an encyclopedia article. Removed "along racial lines" as it's unnecessarily vague. Removed "claims of" in accordance with WP:NPOV, MOS:DOUBT, and MOS:CLAIM—while the cause(s) may remain controversial, expert consensus has long acknowledged significant differences, as measured by IQ."

Three minutes later, my edit was summarily reverted, with the sole explanation: "nope - we don't assert as fact minority-opinion claims." The reverting editor initiated no discussion on the Talk page, offered no explanation of what these "minority-opinion claims" might be, and blithely ignored the guidance in WP:REVONLY while wholesale reverting my tripartite edit and explanation.

As I'd written in my explanation, the fact that there are differences in average tested intelligence between racial groups is the majority, consensus view. The text of our article makes this abundantly clear:

• "In the US, individuals identifying themselves as Asian generally tend to score higher on IQ tests than Caucasians, who tend to score higher than Hispanics, who tend to score higher than African Americans."

• "...differences in average test performance between racial groups were observed…"

• "A 2001 meta-analysis of the results of 6,246,729 participants tested for cognitive ability or aptitude found a difference in average scores between black people and white people of 1.1 standard deviations. Consistent results were found for college and university application tests such as the Scholastic Aptitude Test (N = 2.4 million) and Graduate Record Examination (N = 2.3 million), as well as for tests of job applicants in corporate settings (N = 0.5 million) and in the military (N = 0.4 million)."

• The article cites the Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns report to establish the "consensus" that differences in intelligence between races exist: "Regarding group differences, the report reaffirmed the consensus that differences within groups are much wider than differences between groups." The report itself is specific about those differences: "African American IQ scores have long averaged about 15 points below those of Whites, with correspondingly lower scores on academic achievement tests."

Indeed, the entire article is about, as I succinctly summarized: "Differences in average intelligence between races." While much of the article is devoted to deconstructing the terms and meanings of "race" and "intelligence" while promulgating a minority view that none of the differences in average intelligence between races could possibly be genetic in origin—nowhere does our article reference any consensus that differences in average intelligence between racial groups do not exist or that their existence is merely a "minority-opinion claim". Indeed, the exact opposite is true.

I welcome input regarding our short description—but the mealy-mouthed one that is there now serves our article poorly, and contradicts a host of Wikipedia guidance. Thanks! ElleTheBelle 16:32, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Test results are not the same as intelligence. Your edit summary made it seem like a difference in intelligence really existed. And we already had this discussion about three or four hundred times on this talk page, so other editors with more patience may reply to you again, but I won't. Rsk6400 (talk) 16:55, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

First, my error above: I meant WP:VAI (not WP:AVI), and in the context of WP:SDESC—guidance over which the current short description runs roughshod.

Second, if you read my "edit summary", you know that I wrote: "...expert consensus has long acknowledged significant differences, as measured by IQ." That said, can you point me to some of the more significant of these 400-odd discussions of the WP:SDESC for this article?

Third, the expert consensus is that intelligence tests measure human intelligence—that's hardly a "minority-opinion claim", but rather the long-accepted scientific view. Quibbling over what "intelligence" means doesn't change that simple fact. That being said, I have no problem with "Racial groups differ in average intelligence, as measured by intelligence tests." The last clause is superfluous, as intelligence tests are the only scientifically accepted method for testing and comparing intelligence—so it seems an odd thing on which to insist. And if one really believed in the distinction, wouldn't one advocate for the article to be titled "Race and intelligence-test scores"? Nevertheless, perhaps that's a reasonable compromise which comports with WP:SDESC? Thanks! ElleTheBelle 22:25, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

The article is more than about average differences in intelligence between racial groups. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:02, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

What else is it "about", exactly? Thanks! ElleTheBelle 22:27, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, there is precisely zero chance that you are going to persuade the community to allow you to present WP:RACISTBELIEFS in Wikivoice. There is no scientific rationale for defining intelligence as "what IQ tests measure" any more than there is for defining the intrinsic worth of a human being in terms of their Net worth. The consensus is that IQ measures some aspects of intelligence, but if you think that translates into a consensus that some races are more or less intelligent than others then you are simply, profoundly mistaken. Generalrelative (talk) 01:17, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Asian Intelligence in the US

I think in the section on test scores we should differentiate between South Asians and East Asians. The term Asian is way too broad. For example, the section speaks about the average scores for Asians and Caucasians, but South Asians are technically Caucasians. TheHaberProcess (talk) 22:43, 7 August 2022 (UTC)