Talk:List of video games considered the best

How to add more games

It’s been asked by many, many people in the past, and answered by others constantly. So, to reduce the need to ask and answer, I’ll remind the newcomers of what they need to do. To all who are new to this page, and to all who are new to Wikipedia as a whole, there are criteria on the top of the main article. There is also a "Frequently asked questions" box immediately above this section. Read the criteria first, thoroughly, and you’ll find the instructions. If it is not clear enough, feel free to read the FAQ box. BlueBlurHog (talk) 19:59, 1 February 2022 (UTC) Revised: BlueBlurHog (talk) 01:48, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

In addition, if you want to look at how many publications have been highlighted for certain games that may not be on the article yet, you can checkout this spreadsheet. BlueBlurHog (talk) 17:15, 16 March 2022 (UTC) Revised: BlueBlurHog (talk) 18:25, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Lists

The omnibus list data is located here; use the headers at the left to jump to the list(s) you want to check. Phediuk (talk) 19:15, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

List of all current 5-entry video games

Just as a form of helpful reference for when more lists are added in the future to this page, here's a list of all the current 5-list games we have on our spreadsheet that will each go on the list should they get another list entry in the future:

1. A Mind Forever Voyaging
2. Arkanoid
3. Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag
4. Banjo-Kazooie
5. Battlefield 2
6. Borderlands 2
7. California Games
8. Cannon Fodder
9. Cave Story
10. Crazy Taxi
11. Deus Ex: Human Revolution
12. Dishonored 2
13. Earthworm Jim
14. F-Zero
15. Final Fantasy VIII
16. Fire Emblem: Awakening
17. Fortnite
18. Freespace 2
19. Golden Axe
20. Guitar Hero II
21. Head Over Heels
22. Hearthstone
23. Heros of Might & Magic III
24. Kingdom Hearts II
25. Lumines
26. Mass Effect 3
27. Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots
28. NHL '94
29. Ori and the Blind Forest
30. Outrun 2006: Coast 2 Coast
31. Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door
32. Peggle
33. Perfect Dark
34. Pilotwings
35. Pole Position
36. Samurai Shodown
37. Skies of Arcadia
38. Spy Hunter
39. Stunt Car Racer
40. Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars
41. Super Monkey Ball
42. Super Smash Bros. Brawl
43. Tekken 2
44. The Sims 3
45. The Witness
46. Theme Park
47. Time Crisis
48. Timesplitters 2
49. Towerfall
50. Vagrant Story
51. Virtua Fighter 5
52. Xenogears

Of course I will try to update this as more games get 5 entries or get their 6th entry and need to be removed from this list.

Eseseso (talk) 17:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Museum of Pop Culture (2019)

The Museum of Pop Culture made a 2019 list of the top 100 games:

Museum of Pop Culture 2019

1. Grand Theft Auto V 2. Super Mario World 3. Space Invaders 4. Minecraft 5. Fallout: New Vegas 6. Uncharted 4: A Thief’s End 7. Borderlands 2 8. Spider-Man (2018) 9. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 10. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City 11. Halo: Combat Evolved 12. World of Warcraft 13. Far Cry 3 14. Dragon Age: Inquisition 15. Half-Life 2 16. Crysis 17. Street Fighter II 18. GoldenEye 007 19. Battlefield 1 20. Inside 21. Overwatch 22. Valiant Hearts: The Great War 23. Tetris 24. God of War (2005) / God of War (2018) 25. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past 26. Castle Crashers 27. Super Mario Bros. 28. Limbo 29. The Oregon Trail 30. Rocket League 31. We Happy Few 32. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 33. Tomb Raider (1996) / Tomb Raider (2013) 34. Quake 35. Guild Wars 2 36. BioShock 37. Overcooked 38. No Man’s Sky 39. Wolfenstein: The New Order 40. Gears of War 2 41. Dishonored 2 42. The Last of Us 43. Rise of the Tomb Raider 44. Cuphead 45. Forza Motorsport 6 46. Red Dead Redemption 47. Destiny 48. Divinity: Original Sin II 49. Mass Effect 2 50. Mortal Kombat 3 51. Counter-Strike 52. Command & Conquer 53. Horizon: Zero Dawn 54. Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego 55. Assassin’s Creed II 56. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Turtles in Time 57. Deus Ex 58. Final Fantasy IX 59. Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 2 Ranked As: Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater (Series) 60. Unreal Tournament 61. Firewatch 62. Duke Nukem 3D 63. The Order: 1886 64. Soul Calibur 65. Galaga 66. Need For Speed: Underground 2 67. ReCore 68. X-COM: UFO Defense (AKA UFO: Enemy Unknown) 69. Diablo II 70. Fable 71. StarCraft 72. Dark Souls II 73. Dead Rising 3 74. Donkey Kong 75. Call of Duty 76. NBA 2K3 Ranked As: NBA 2K (Series) 77. Dead Space 78. Titanfall 2 79. Mafia 80. Super Mario Kart 81. Resident Evil 4 82. Batman: Arkham City 83. Gran Turismo 84. Left 4 Dead 2 85. Eve Online 86. EarthBound 87. Diablo 88. Mega Man 3 89. Bloodborne 90. Devil May Cry 91. Hitman 92. SimCity 2000 93. Metroid Prime 94. Star Fox 64 (AKA Star Fox: Lylat Wars) 95. Stardew Valley 96. Ratchet & Clank 97. Microsoft Flight Simulator 98. League of Legends 99. Doom (1993) / Doom (2016) 100. Myst

If this list is accepted, Borderlands 2 and Dishonored 2 will each get their 6th entry. Also, the following games will gain their 5th entry if this list is accepted:

1. Doom (2016) 2. Eve Online 3. Mafia 4. Titanfall 2 5. Call of duty 6. Fable 7. Firewatch 8. Horizon: Zero Dawn 9. Castle Crashers 10. Dragon Age: Inquisition

Eseseso (talk) 17:43, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the suggestion. There a couple of things to note here. First, MoPOP has few citations on the English Wikipedia, and most of the handful that are there are for images. Its reliability should be evaluated at the talk page at WP:VG/S first, as it is currently uncertain. Second, the list is vague as to whether "top 100" means best or not, saying only that "this list will have something for even the most casual gamer." There should be some indication, somewhere in the list (or even on another page about the list), that this is about best/greatest games, if we are to incorporate it. Thanks again for suggesting this list, though. Phediuk (talk) 20:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

The list itself doesn't fit the criteria, from what I could tell. I found it months ago, but the main thing to note is that it doesn't appear to be editor-chosen, and that the list itself appears to be the writeup of a blog post contributor, rather than an official list from the Museum of Pop Culture itself. For those reasons, I chose not to submit it here because there isn't a sufficient amount of info to suggest that this is an official list akin to the ones by IGN, GamesRadar+, or Slant.Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 00:36, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I fully understand.

Just curious, is GamingBible a reliable source? Because they also have a list of the 100 best games of all time.

Here is GamingBible's 2020 list:

GamingBible 2020

1. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild 2. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 3. Portal 2 4. Minecraft 5. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 6. Grand Theft Auto V 7. The Last of Us 8. Super Mario Galaxy 9. Super Mario Bros. 3 10. Halo 3 11. Tetris 12. Sonic the Hedgehog 2 13. Dark Souls 14. Chrono Trigger 15. Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 16. Her Story 17. Batman: Arkham City 18. Metal Gear Solid 19. God of War (2018) 20. Outer Wilds 21. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 22. Pokemon Gold/Silver/Crystal 23. Bloodborne 24. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas 25. Assassin’s Creed II 26. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe 27. Disco Elysium 28. Super Mario Odyssey 29. Call of Duty: Black Ops 30. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves 31. Red Dead Redemption 32. Half-Life 2 33. Overwatch 34. Spider-Man (2018) 35. Resident Evil 4 36. Street Fighter II 37. Celeste 38. Final Fantasy VII 39. Rocket League 40. Prey (2017) 41. BioShock 42. Life Is Strange 43. Into the Breach 44. Tekken 3 45. Titanfall 2 46. Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen 47. Metroid Prime 48. Hades 49. Persona 5 50. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker 51. Pokemon Blue/Red 52. Halo: Combat Evolved 53. Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker 54. The Secret of Monkey Island 55. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past 56. Oxenfree 57. Red Dead Redemption 2 58. Dishonored 59. Gears of War 2 60. Silent Hill 2 61. Nier: Automata 62. RuneScape 63. Super Metroid 64. LittleBigPlanet 65. Fable 66. Doom (1993) 67. Super Hexagon 68. The Sims 2 69. Hitman 70. League of Legends 71. Resident Evil 2 (2019) 72. Tomb Raider II 73. Mass Effect 2 74. Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 2 (Ranked As: Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater (Series)) 75. Ori and the Will of the Wisps 76. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 77. Super Smash Bros. Ultimate 78. Left 4 Dead 2 79. To the Moon 80. Thirty Flights of Loving 81. Total War: Warhammer II 82. Shadow of the Colossus 83. Tom Clancy’s Rainbow Six: Vegas 2 84. Undertale 85. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock (Ranked As: Guitar Hero (Series)) 86. Dragon Age: Inquisition 87. Fortnite 88. Streets of Rage 2 89. Fire Emblem: Three Houses 90. Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft 91. Animal Crossing: Wild World 92. GoldenEye 007 93. Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4 94. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess 95. TimeSplitters: Future Perfect 96. Soma 97. Professor Layton and the Curious Village 98. World Series Baseball 99. Assassin’s Creed IV: Black Flag 100. Dirt Rally

Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag, Fortnite, and Hearthstone would all get their 6th list entry, while Mafia, Titanfall 2, Dragon Age: Inquisition, To The Moon, Life is Strange, and Mario Kart 8 would all get their 5th entry

Eseseso (talk) 13:55, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

GamingBible (and all LadBible sites) are not reliable. -- ferret (talk) 14:35, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the heads up. Eseseso (talk) 14:41, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Edge (2007)

Sorry for making yet another proposal, but this time I am certain that it is more reliable, as it is a 2007 list of Edge Magazine that includes some games that the 2000, 2015, and 2017 ones don't have (there were also a 2003 and a 2009 list but those don't fit our guidelines).

Edge 2007

1. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 2. Resident Evil 4 3. Super Mario 64 4. Half-Life 2 5. Super Mario World 6. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past 7. Halo: Combat Evolved 8. Final Fantasy XII 9. Tetris 10. Super Metroid 11. Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island 12. Grand Theft Auto: Vice City 13. Ico 14. Super Mario Kart 15. Pro Evolution Soccer 6 Ranked As: Pro Evolution Soccer (Series) 16. Street Fighter Anniversary Collection Ranked As: Street Fighter II and Street Fighter III 17. GoldenEye 007 18. Final Fantasy VII 19. The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion 20. Civilization IV 21. Okami 22. World of Warcraft 23. Metroid Prime 24. Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time 25. SimCity 2000 26. Advance Wars 27. Rez (AKA Rez Infinite) 28. Perfect Dark 29. Deus Ex 30. Shadow of the Colossus 31. Katamari Damacy 32. Project Gotham Racing 2 33. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night 34. R-Type Final 35. Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty 36. Battlefield 2 37. StarCraft 38. Virtua Fighter 5 39. Secret of Mana 40. WarioWare Inc: Mega Microgames! 41. Gran Turismo 4 42. Rome: Total War 43. The Bomberman Series Ranked As: Bomberman, Mega Bomberman (AKA Bomberman 94), Super Bomberman, Super Bomberman 2, and Saturn Bomberman 44. Super Monkey Ball 45. Company of Heroes 46. Quake III Arena 47. Far Cry 48. Puyo Pop Fever 49. Animal Crossing 50. Shenmue 51. Pokemon Ruby / Sapphire 52. Disgaea: Hour of Darkness 53. Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 2 Ranked As: Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater (Series) 54. Chrono Trigger 55. Counter-Strike 56. Guitar Hero Ranked As: Guitar Hero (Series) 57. Soul Calibur 58. Tempest 2000 59. Star Fox 64 (AKA Star Fox: Lylat Wars) 60. Pac-Man Vs. 61. Manhunt 62. Jet Set Radio Future 63. Lumines 64. System Shock 2 65. Darwinia 66. F-Zero GX 67. Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved 68. GTR 2 69. Pilotwings 64 70. Ridge Racer 2 (2006) 71. Ninja Gaiden (2004) 72. Killer 7 73. Bust-A-Move (AKA Puzzle Bobble) 74. Thief: The Dark Project 75. Burnout 2: Point of Impact 76. Ikaruga 77. Football Manager 2007 Ranked As: Championship Manager [1992-2003] / Football Manager [2004-Current] (Series) 78. Doom II 79. The Secret of Monkey Island 80. Virtua Tennis 2 Ranked As: Virtua Tennis (Series) 81. Robotron 2084 82. Lemmings 83. Nights Into Dreams 84. Phantasy Star Online 85. Silent Hill 2 86. OutRun 2 (AKA OutRun 2006: Coast 2 Coast) 87. Mr. Driller 88. Sega Rally Championship 89. Tomb Raider (1996) 90. Devil May Cry 91. Super Smash Bros. Melee 92. Resident Evil (1996) Ranked As: Resident Evil (1996) / Resident Evil (2002) 93. Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door 94. Gitaroo Man 95. God of War 96. Wipeout 97. Tekken 3 98. Sensible Soccer Ranked As: Sensible Soccer (Series) 99. Psychonauts 100. Crackdown

If this list is accepted, then Battlefield 2, Virtua Fighter 5, Lumines, Perfect Dark, and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door all get their 6th entry (and I checked to make sure that the 3 accepted lists don't have them).

~~ Eseseso (talk) 15:25, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the list, but unfortunately this is partially reader-voted ("as judged by the readers and writers of Edge"). It's been discussed (and excluded) a few times before. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 15:32, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Shit. Did not know that.

I'm so sorry. Eseseso (talk) 15:36, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

No stress, it's very easy to miss. Thanks again for the suggestion! – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 15:39, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 October 2022

Please add Metal Gear Solid 4 and Elden Ring to this list. Hishamabd950 (talk) 18:00, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. - FlightTime (open channel) 18:01, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 21 October 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 22:54, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

---

List of video games considered the best → List of video games considered the best by media outlets – Per WP:PRECISION. Considering the very specific criteria of inclusion this page has, and that all of them involve listings from journalists/magazines/media outlets, I think it might be better to make it clear (right out of the gate) what this page is about. It could reduce confusion in the future for why XYZ game isn't included on the list, etc. DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 22:13, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the suggestion, but such a move seems unnecessary to me. The first sentence of the article already clarifies what the page title means, and "by media outlets" seems redundant to place in a Wikipedia article title because it generally goes without saying that WP articles draw their information from secondary sources. In short, I believe there's no need to move. Phediuk (talk) 22:30, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

According to the FAQs: "Lists must also be editor-chosen and not reader/fan polls."

Obviously, garden-verity internet polls aren't very reliable, so using secondary sources makes sense. But sometimes gaming culture sites like Eurogamer have, for example, done "readers choice" lists for the best games of a given year according to the website's readers. By definition, the FAQ disqualifies these.

If polls from reliable sources were included, I could see while sticking with the broader name. If not, though, then it should be made it clear from the get-go that this page is specifically about editor-chosen listings. DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 23:35, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. In theory, all of Wikipedia should work like this; this is basically like adding "according to reliable sources" at the end of other articles. Note that 1001 Video Games You Must Play Before You Die is a book, and reliable, non-independently published, notable books are valid sources too, just less common for this. SnowFire (talk) 23:19, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. The same idea applies here as with a reception section (no formal guidelines, but see WP:CRS)—it's valuable to capture "critical consensus," and the easiest way to do this with reliable sources is to use sources from reliable media outlets (e.g. those listed at WP:VG/RS). I can't see a reason to break up the topic into "by media outlets," "by fan polls," etc, nor one to move the page. That said, I'm not opposed to a discussion about this article also including reader surveys from reliable sources (note though that the Eurogamer article you linked isn't quite suitable for this, since it's restricted to a specific year, but a poll covering all-time seems like it could be). That said, I don't think it'd drastically change the list, if at all—this list covers a lot of different sources and the editors/reviewers at game media outlets are, generally speaking, also people who play and enjoy video games. I think no matter what people will complain that X game doesn't appear on the list, but that's in the nature of all lists; we could have a list with every game ever published except E.T. and there'd be four die-hard fans of that game asking why it's missing. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 23:57, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

  I certainly don't expect the page to be radically different if all-time reader surveys are included, and I don't doubt at all that many games media types are folks that love video games. I made this move request on the assumption that the strict "no reader/polls" was just how this page operated (and it wasn't my intention to create a WP:POVFORK, and I apologize if that was the impression), but seeing the clear response against the move so far, I guess I assumed incorrectly. I would definitely be interested in a possible inclusion of reader polls from reliable sources (as long as they fit the "all-time" criteria, of course). DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 00:31, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  @XTheBedrockX Per signature policy please change your signature to include a clear reference to your name. -- ferret (talk) 01:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  @ferret done (thanks for pointing it out) DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 01:29, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  Honestly I'm pretty opposed to integrating all reader polls if it came down to it. While I agree that ideally, the perception of general audiences is an important factor to consider, most of these reader polls are done online nowadays and can be manipulated to produce unreliable results. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 08:48, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  i can understand not all reader polls being included, but some integration, I think, can be a good thing. Especially if they come from a major pop culture/gaming website, and not just random strawpolls/Metacritic or Steam user review scores/real-time online ranking sites, etc. DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 13:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Phediuk, SnowFire, Dylnuge. I'm not sure there's much more to say. -- ferret (talk) 00:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose – over disambiguating. It's like of like List of tallest buildings in the world, as in the world is not needed (so far there are no skyscrapers on Mars). cookie monster 755 03:21, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

  Another problematic example: List of eSports players was once moved to List of notable eSports players under a similar idea because the list criteria was "must be notable", see Special:Diff/792307323. It was a double issue because "Notable" in this context is Wikipedia guideline, not the common use of the word. -- ferret (talk) 03:46, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Assumed based on Wikipedia policies. First line of the article clears up any possible confusion. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 08:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Adding "by media outlets" or "by fan polls" just makes the list more based and thus subjective. Hansen Sebastian^Talk 07:29, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per basically everyone else. DecafPotato (talk) 14:24, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Thoughts on including all-time lists from readers-choice polls?

It could help round out the article a bit, even if it doesn't change much. It's also not unprecedented for an article like this to include audience opinions, since List of films considered the best features some notable ones. DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 04:55, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

It'd be best for you to start this off with an argument on why we should include it, beyond OTHERSTUFF. As well as the exact criteria for a reader poll to be included. -- ferret (talk) 13:28, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

@Ferret For a start, per what I said in the above discussion: if they come from a major pop culture/gaming website, and not just random strawpolls/Metacritic or Steam user review scores/real-time online ranking sites, etc." since lists from publications are more stable and (usually) not as vulnerable to brigading or vote-stacking. The reader choice reference list can be included in a separate heading (like Publications) if necessary. DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 14:19, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

The problem is that user polls are inherently WP:USERG. -- ferret (talk) 16:08, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes. This is why I suggested narrowing them down to just reader polls that show up in magazines or trusted websites. The WP:USERG policy states:

"Content from websites whose content is largely user-generated is generally unacceptable. Sites with user-generated content include personal websites, personal and group blogs (excluding newspaper and magazine blogs), content farms, Internet forums, social media sites, fansites, video and image hosting services, most wikis and other collaboratively created websites. Examples of unacceptable user-generated sites are Ancestry.com, Facebook, Fandom, Find a Grave, Goodreads, IMDb, Instagram, ODMP, Reddit, TikTok, Tumblr, TV Tropes, Twitter, and Wikipedia (self referencing)."

When I mention reader polls, I'm explicitly not including polls that don't fall within these guidelines. That narrows it down to just user polls published by magazines and the like (of which a handful exist). DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 20:05, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm going to oppose this. Since this is a list of games considered the best, the question of who is doing the considering is relevant here, and for that purpose, critics and industry experts hold much more weight than a tallied number from random, anonymous readers. With critic/expert lists, we can always say, for certain, that they reflect the real considerations of specific people; with random reader polls, we cannot. Hence, this page focuses on lists crafted from critical opinions, rather than those tallied up from popularity contests. Phediuk (talk) 14:43, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, any listing that ranks popular media based on how "good" it is (and not something arguably more tangible like sales numbers) will always be inherently arbitrary, one way or another. WP:VG/BROADPOV dictates that sourcing should (within reason) be broad enough to reduce POV issues. As long as they're from reliable sources and clearly designated as reader polls, I don't think it would be too much of a problem for them to be here. DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 19:52, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I think what Phediuk is getting at is that you're conflating your data when you include reader polls. The list as it exists now is based exclusively on rankings carefully thought and compiled by industry experts. Reader polls are inherently different types of rankings that will disproportionately favor games that more people have played, rather than those with the most critical merit. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 21:21, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Combining reader polls with the rest of the data is probably messy and unhelpful overall, I'll admit to that. With that being said, if the #1 game from each reader poll is listed under a separate heading, would that be acceptable? (the # of acceptable listings I've found is small enough that they could probably be represented here in point-form without it looking too cluttered). DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 21:44, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

I believe it's better to keep the article's claim narrow and its scope limited. This page does not aim to incorporate every top-game list ever, but only those that represent verifiable critical opinions regarding which games are the best of all time. Adding in popularity polls from random people will muddle the page's purpose, and so I believe they should be excluded. Phediuk (talk) 22:19, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Even if the polls come from WP:VG/RS? DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 22:34, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Also, not for nothing, but per WP:OOS: "Use the most general scope for each article you can. Since Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia, it's supposed to summarise essentially all knowledge. Hence accidental or deliberate choice of a limited scope for an article can make notable information disappear from the encyclopedia entirely, or make it highly inaccessible." DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 02:42, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, just a few things to clarify here. First of all, WP:OOS is an essay, not a guideline; an article's scope is governed by consensus, not by any given rule. Second, the essay warns primarily against limiting scope to push a POV; such a concern would apply to this page only if it excluded certain lists of critical opinions to manipulate the page's entries, which is something this page does not do. On the contrary, this page maximizes its scope within its defined topic, i.e., of lists of best games of all time representing verifiable critical opinions; it includes as many such lists as possible, and has continually expanded to include more. Third, the essay says, "The lead, ideally the introductory sentence or at least introductory paragraph, of an article, should make clear what the scope of the article is." The lead sentence of this page does, indeed, define the page's scope right off the bat, clarifying that it's about critical opinions of best video games. Popularity polls based on tallies of unverifiable, random people fall out of scope for the stated intent of the page. When I recommended to keep the page's scope limited, I meant limited in the sense of not going beyond its defined topic, which is a practice that WP:SCOPE advocates: per the essay, "What reliable sources say about material that is out of scope for the decided-upon subject is largely irrelevant to that article and can be removed or moved to another article." Thank you; I hope this clears things up. Phediuk (talk) 05:47, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I genuinely feel like we're talking past each other here. Maybe it's just my temperament, but I didn't feel like it was unreasonable to feature any reader polls. (which I have repeatedly stated that I was fine with just limiting them to the few that come from reliable sources - from games media - and not just randos in comment sections or Metacritic reviews).

I am fully aware of how many games critics play through, and that they probably know what they're talking about when it comes to this stuff. But:

• A - I know some games media folks themselves have discussed the fact that the nature of their job doesn't always let them get a fully cohesive picture of the games they play, since the outlet they work for might encourage a policy of quantity-over-quality; but much more importantly,
• B - Me saying this article could include examples of reader polls is not an attempt at trying to make this a "Public vs. The Critics" thing. I know the critics are not Always wrong, and the public is not Always right (or vice versa, for that matter). I know journalists and critics are, in fact, people like you and me. I don't need that explained to me.

DJ (XTheBedrockX) (talk) 06:21, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. I understand you are just talking about polls from reliable sources, and that they would be listed in a separate table. I also understand that you are not attempting to make it a critics vs. players thing. I believe you are acting in good faith, but you're missing the core of the issue, which is that they are popularity polls disguised as "best game ever" polls. Newer games and popular franchises will get more votes, so consequently, Dune II will not score as high as the latest mediocre Pokemon game. They are fun to read but that's about it. There's no merit in them, and no place in an encyclopedia for them. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 07:44, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Adding onto this, the critics and industry experts that decide upon the lists are people who have played hundreds of games across a variety of genres, whereas reader polls can be voted on even by someone who has only played a dozen games or so. Anonymouseditor2k19 (talk) 04:47, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Option to sort by most media outlets?

Maybe for the list, we could add an option to order games by the amount of sources that list them as "one of the best of all time". It seems to be a logical expansion on the list concept. Thoughts? DecafPotato (talk) 16:01, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

This has been suggested at least three times before. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 16:10, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

After looking through the previous discussions, it seems that "amount of times this was listed" wasn't liked very much because, as seen in the frequent talk page discussions, new decades-old sources are still being dug up. Which I think is a fair point.

However, possibly an "average ranking" would be better? It doesn't claim that "12 sources consider Video Game: The Movie: The Game one of the greatest games ever", but rather "Video Game: The Movie: The Game has an average placement of 19th for lists of the greatest games of all time", which is more free of original research.

One claim used to dispute both of these suggestions are that "WP:SYNTH states 'Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source'". However, each source is explicitly referring to each mentioned game as "among the best ever made", and numerical summarization is not synthesis, and thus is not original research. DecafPotato (talk) 21:10, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the suggestion, but I'm going to concur with prior discussions on this matter. Since page is not a tally, it deliberately does not claim any kind of meta-ranking for the games listed, and does not seek to create one. Averaging out disparate rankings into a singular meta-ranking is particularly problematic, as many lists are unranked. With that said, you can still infer, fairly easily, how many lists a given game is on by just scrolling down to the Notes section. Phediuk (talk) 23:35, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

I think that might be the problem, though. I struggle to see how "go to notes and count them" is any different than "here's the exact same information but counted for you". DecafPotato (talk) 06:39, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

One is something you choose to do of your own volition, with your own interpretation. The other makes it seem like we're keeping an official "tally" that holds meaning where it infact, does not. -- ferret (talk) 13:10, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

I think "average rating" carries similar problems to number of lists. Not all of these lists are ranked, nor are they all the same size, and as already noted, not all games are on all lists, so the statistical value of an average gets really murky.

For instance: Game X and Game Y are published at the same time (eligible for the same number of lists), and both meet inclusion criteria. Six different lists each put Game X at #15 and Game Y at #1. A seventh list puts Game Y at #100, and doesn't list Game X at all. In that case both would average out to around #15, with Game Y actually slightly higher (i.e. worse)—even though Game Y is agreed on by all sources which are directly comparing them to be the better game. It'd also be impossible to determine whether the 7th list considered Game X at all (you could read it as either "Game X is not in the top 100" or "Game X was just never considered by these editors"). Obviously this is a contrived example, but it demonstrates that "average rating #15" isn't really communicating clear information. Working around this is non-trivial (and a more complex statistical method starts to feel like it's no longer covered by WP:CALC).

It's valuable to say "these are video games widely considered to be among the best" but extremely hard to go beyond that and create some form of absolute ranking. Alternatively, the article provides dozens of links to online sources where critics have done just that, so anyone wanting a ranked list of the best games of all time will have no trouble finding one from this page. Dylnuge ^{(Talk • Edits)} 04:44, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

List of Top 100 Games by number of referenced Sources

(Titles that have same amount of references are ordered by age, with the older title taking preference)

Tetris 58 Super Mario 64 50 Street Fighter II 48 GoldenEye 007 47 Doom 46 Metal Gear Solid 46 Super Metroid 45 Final Fantasy VII 45 The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 44 The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past 43 Resident Evil 4 43 Castlevania: Symphony of the Night 41 Super Mario Kart 40 Chrono Trigger 40 Half-Life 2 39 Shadow of the Colossus 39 Super Mario World 36 World of Warcraft 35 Silent Hill 2 34 Metroid Prime 34 Super Mario Bros. 3 33 BioShock 33 Half-Life 32 Mass Effect 2 32 Final Fantasy VI 31 Diablo II 31 Sonic the Hedgehog 30 Counter-Strike 30 Uncharted 2: Among Thieves 30 Red Dead Redemption 30 Tomb Raider 29 StarCraft 29 Grim Fandango 29 Deus Ex 29 Halo: Combat Evolved 29 Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 29 Minecraft 29 Portal 28 The Last of Us 28 SimCity 2000 27 Ico 27 Pac-Man 26 Super Mario Bros. 25 Mega Man 2 25 Pokémon Red and Blue 25 Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time 25 Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater 25 Portal 2 25 Journey 25 Space Invaders 24 Donkey Kong 24 Secret of Mana 24 Super Mario World 2: Yoshi’s Island 24 Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 24 Ōkami 24 Grand Theft Auto V 24 X-COM: UFO Defense 23 Ms. Pac-Man 22 Super Smash Bros. Melee 22 The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim 22 The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 22 Pong 21 Day of the Tentacle 21 Braid 21 Dark Souls 21 Batman: Arkham City 21 The Secret of Monkey Island 20 Lemmings 20 Star Wars: TIE Fighter 20 EarthBound 20 Final Fantasy Tactics 20 The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker 20 Fallout 3 20 Civilization II 19 The Sims 19 Advance Wars 19 Grand Theft Auto III 19 Resident Evil 18 System Shock 2 18 Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas 18 Persona 4 18 Bloodborne 18 Elite 17 Gauntlet 17 Mike Tyson’s Punch-Out!! 17 NBA Jam 17 Myst 17 Fallout 2 17 Planescape: Torment 17 Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 2 17 Burnout 3: Takedown 17 The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild 17 Asteroids 16 Defender 16 Galaga 16 The Legend of Zelda 16 SimCity 16 Monkey Island 2: LeChuck’s Revenge 16 Donkey Kong Country 16 Soulcalibur 16 184.21.125.211 (talk) 23:37, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Speedball 2: Brutal Deluxe is simultaneously developed and released for both the Amiga and Atari ST

[1]https://readonlymemory.vg/the-making-of-speedball-2/ 178.164.222.232 (talk) 20:56, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

The article indicates the ST version was released earlier, per this quote: "‘The entire thing simply oozes a class and quality that is rarely found,’ declared C+VG, awarding the initial ST version 95%. ‘Dan Malone’s graphics are nothing short of spectacular.’ Two issues later it would bump that score to 97% for the Amiga version, recognising the new pitch and sound effects." Phediuk (talk) 21:45, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

The following games have won plenty of accolades

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Remains_of_Edith_Finch en.wikipedia.org/wiki/That_Dragon,_Cancer en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance,_Voldo,_Dance Bigchupachups (talk) 02:13, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Please refer to the FAQ at the top of the page for the inclusion criteria. Cat's Tuxedo (talk) 02:15, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Tekken 3 Release Date

Tekken 3 is currently in the 1996 section, but shouldn't it be 1997? S3kt0r359 (talk) 18:50, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Never mind. I see in the article, it had a limited release in 1996 before it's main release in 1997. I guess I can see the argument for keeping it in 1996 then. Pardon my suggestion. S3kt0r359 (talk) 19:00, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Would the Top 100 Games Podcast count?

I'm not sure if Kinda Funny is considered a reliable source, and I know that no. 35-1 have yet to be determined, but I'm just wondering if we can include it, and Jared's list, as a sort of Sight & Sound Critics vs Directors, Alena 33 (talk) 17:46, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the suggestion. Kinda Funny's reliability has yet to be evaluated over on WT:VGRS, so you should open up a thread there first. I can't speak to the new list they're doing (is there a link?), but they did also make a Top 100 list in 2016. However, that list outright excludes PC games from discussion, and there doesn't seem to be a real, finalized list from what I can tell; it's more like them shooting some ideas around, and they end up with 169 games by the end. So, no to that one, at least, but we'll need to see the new one before we can say if it meets the criteria. Phediuk (talk) 18:59, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Oh, I misread your post; you mean the Top 100 Games Podcast, hosted by Jared Petty. I'm going to vote no to that one, because it does not claim to represent the best games; the opening minutes of the first episode clarify that the games are just whatever the guest that week wants to talk about, for whatever reason. The suggestion is appreciated, though. Phediuk (talk) 19:05, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Spreadsheet error

Alien: Isolation is listed twice as “Alien Isolation” and “Alien: Isolation” 76.90.197.156 (talk) 19:30, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks for pointing the error out! BenSPVE (talk) 07:38, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

No problem! Morphogenetic Hamon (talk) 05:56, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Shacknews Hall of Fame

Shacknews updated their Hall of Fame recently. Is that already included? We may need to update everything. Alena 33 (talk) 19:20, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

No, the Shacknews Hall of Fame is not included, as it does not claim anywhere that it represents the best/greatest games, but rather, "the games that have influenced the direction of our industry and shaped our favorite hobby." Thanks for the suggestion, though. Phediuk (talk) 01:14, 30 December 2022 (UTC)