Talk:Pastilla

Semi-protected edit request on 30 March 2023

41.251.197.1 (talk) 03:33, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Hello, there is a misunderstanding about the pastilla origin country, it is stated morocco and algeria while it's only morocco because I know many algerian tries to label moroccan food as maghrebian, meaning that it's algerian and Moroccan at the same time, wich is a false aspect about our culture, furthermore there is no chef in algeria that can make the same pastilla as morocco o a professional in it, while in Morocco every single woman knows the exact recipe and Ingredients to make it. That is why I'm submitting my edit request hoping for a soon reply. Thank you.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lightoil (talk) 08:02, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Specialty

"It is a specialty of Morocco and Algeria." Isn't that an obvious WP:OR, misrepresentation of sources and misleading? Pastilla is absolutely not a specialty of Algeria!

Fist of all this PDF is not available anymore.. Secondly, it is true that Gaul's source suggested that the pastilla was introduced to Tetuan by the Algerian immigrants in the 19th century, however it doesn't suggest that the dish is a specialty of Algeria in 21st century! The mention of Algeria should be removed from the lead! Thanks.

Simoooix.haddi (talk) 02:26, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

 Note: this nationalist crap has been discussed ad-nauseam with plenty of single purpose accounts and their socks. The result is always the same: they move on once they realize that they're wasting their time. M.Bitton (talk) 02:51, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Again! You didn't answer any of the points i raised above, but instead you have made baseless accusations. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 03:08, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton firstly, the comment that you left here is an obvious personal attack.

Secondly, the reference that you have moved to the lead doesn't suggest that the pastilla is a "specialty" of Algeria while it already suggest that for Morocco. You didn't fix anything the problem is still the same. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 05:15, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Take your complaint to WP:ANI. The origin and were it's consumed is sourced (whether some like it or not). M.Bitton (talk) 13:05, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton. The only reliable source (so far) that gives a clear indication of the origin is the encyclopedia of Jewish food (actually i agree with إيان's last edit).

"Where it's conumed is sourced", Well thank you for using the word "consumed", Yes indeed the source suggest that Pastilla is consumed in Algeria just like Paella and French fries, however it doesn't suggest that the dish is a specialty of Algeria and thus this is a misrepresentation of sources. Otherwise Paella, Kebab and french fries are specialties of Algeria as well. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 13:50, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The origin has been discussed to death (see above), When two historians agree with each other, there is nothing that either you or anyone else can do about it. As for the speciality, that's determined by where it's consumed and for how long (that's sourced too). Unfortunately, some people tend to confuse the belly dancing crap that is sold to tourists with the history of a country they know diddly squat about. M.Bitton (talk) 14:01, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton, your addition of Malsouka (which the encyclopedia of jewish food describes it as the Tunisian version of Moroccan Pastilla) seems fine to me, i wish if you just bring some such RS that suggest the same for Algeria. Regarding your comments, i suggest you refrain falsely accusing editors of "nationalist editing" or "pleasing nationalit crap" as that could be considered as personal attack. Also this revert doesn't make anysense at all,moreover what the Encyclopedia of Jewish Food has to say deserves to be mentioned above as it is one of the most reliable sources in the field. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 14:29, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't need to bring any more RS than what's already in the article (more than enough). Why would a historian of Jewish food deserve more attention than two historians agreeing with each other? Is it because the Moroccan historian is less worthy? M.Bitton (talk) 14:33, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton Here i'm going to repeat my self, neither of the two cited sources suggests that the pastilla is a specialty of Algeria, i have already exlpained why.

Regarding your question, maybe because "Wikipedia over-focuses on publisher instead of author reputability" or probably because Gil Marks is an expert food Historian (you can choose whatever you want). Simoooix.haddi (talk) 15:03, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Unlike you, I won't repeat myself because clearly, you're just splitting hairs now. M.Bitton (talk) 15:06, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton Here is a a quotation from the book "Street food is very popular in Algeria. [...]In the evening entire town squares are turned into street-food bazaars serving more extravagant dishes such as paella and bastila (...description of bastila...)". Could you please explain how that is suggesting that Pastilla is an Algerian specialty? And if it does what about paella (the spanish dish)? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 15:33, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

It's a speciality of the Maghreb. I know this is hard for you to comprehend, but Algeria is massive and has more dishes than you can imagine. Bastilla is just one of them, no more no less (people don't light a fire and dance around it, nor do they feel the need to bang on about it to the local tourists). What you're on about here could be said about every single dish that they consume occasionally (unlike tajines and couscous for instance). M.Bitton (talk) 15:43, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton

1)-Well, you didn't answer my question and you didn't even discuss the content of the book.

2)-"but Algeria is massive and has more dishes than you can imagine. Bastilla is just one of them, no more no less (people don't light a fire and dance around it, nor do they feel the need to bang on about it to the local tourists)." Is that our subject right now? Did i say anything about the food or the culture of Algeria?

The issue now is about to which country (or region) we have to attribute the specialty of the dish (and its versions). Pizza, Sushi, Burgers ,Paella ... i think all of these must be consumed in Algeria (occasionally or whatsoever) but does that makes them a specialty of the country?

Moreover, the origin of the dish doesn't really matter here (even if nothing is confirmed yet) and there is a lot of examples for that. The majority of sources when they mention Pastilla they describes it (directly or indirectly) as Moroccan. But to be fair i won't object mentioning that "the dish is consumed in Algeria". Simoooix.haddi (talk) 16:15, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

You don't have to be fair, you just have to respect the wp policies. This is a speciality of the Maghreb (whose origin is disputed). M.Bitton (talk) 16:22, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton Anyway, what matters now is that you haven't answered my questions above about the source that you have moved to the lead! I'm really waiting for your answer Simoooix.haddi (talk) 16:36, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The fact that you don't like the answers doesn't mean that the questions haven't been answered.. Luckily, now we have a third editor involved. I'm done here. M.Bitton (talk) 16:41, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton "What you're on about here could be said about every single dish that they consume occasionally (unlike tajines and couscous for instance)" I'm unsure if I understood your meaning correctly, but would you accept including Algeria (as a specialty) in the Paella article based on the source you moved to the lead? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 17:59, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

That's an asinine comparison. Is anyone suggesting that Paella has been introduced to Spain through Algeria? No! We're not talking about Paella are we? We are talking about Bastila (which is consumed in the Maghreb and whose origin is disputed). Now, do me a favour and stop pinging me. M.Bitton (talk) 18:53, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Neither of the two available sources (as the PDF is not available anymore) suggest that the dish is a specialty of Algeria (that's a fact). The first one could probably suggests that it was it was a specialty of Algeria in the 19th century and not the 21st century (which contradicts other sources). As for the one that you moved to the lead i have already explained that. What you suggest is called OR. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 20:31, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the note about the PDF link being broken, I added an archive URL. MrOllie (talk) 20:51, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@MrOllie I'm sorry but have you read the whole discussion (seriously)? as i have mentioned that already above. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I have read and understood your points, I just disagree. MrOllie (talk) 22:04, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@Roxy the dog: since Simoooix.haddi keeps tagging the lead, could you please look into this? How on earth can a dish that is consumed in Algeria and potentially introduced from there to Morocco, as per the sources, not be a speciality of the country? I did my best to explain this to them, but for some unknown reason, they kept comparing it to Paella. M.Bitton (talk) 20:20, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Well when you bring an RS that confirms what you are claiming you're welcome to remove the tag.(i would remove it by myself) otherwise your suggestion is nothing but OR and misrepresentation of sources. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 20:35, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The existing RS support the statement, so I removed the tag. MrOllie (talk) 20:47, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi @MrOllie could you please take a look at the points raised in this discussion, and explain why did you remove the tag? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 20:48, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I removed the tag because the existing RS support the statement, as I just said. I did review the points raised in this discussion - I am convinced by the ones raised by M.Bitton. MrOllie (talk) 20:52, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@MrOllie thank you for adding the archived URL, i really appreciate that. Upon reviewing the PDF, I noticed that Pastilla is referred to as "Marocaine" (Moroccan) and that it could be prepared in western Algeria (l'Ouest de l'Algérie). Therefore, I recommend specifying "western Algeria" instead of simply "Algeria" in the lead. Thanks. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 21:09, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

That article was there to support the statement that it's used in Morocco. This has been discussed before (search for Magda Warin, an opinion of a nobody discussing the origin of the word). Frankly, your relentless attempts at changing the lead despite what the article says feels more and more desperate. M.Bitton (talk) 21:12, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Other than that PDF there are infinite sources confiriming that the dish is a specialty of Morocco!

Both Of you didn't even tried to discuss the content of the cited sources. But instead you just wanted to impose your POV. I've seen no valid answer to my points yet. All what i see is just OR and misrepresentation of sources. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 21:39, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

None of which can change the fact that the exact origin of the dish is unknown and disputed. The only editor who's trying to impose their POV (through appropriation of a common heritage) is you. Anyway, you now have all the answers you need, so I suggest you drop the stick. M.Bitton (talk) 21:50, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

"the exact origin of the dish is unknown and disputed". I didn't say otherwise. But since when origin means specialty? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 22:04, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton there is no such RS that suggests that the dish is of Algerian origin (including Bouhila and Gaul) (i think this guy agrees with me). However there are ones suggesting that it is of Moroccan origin (e.g Encyclopedia of Jewish food). Simoooix.haddi (talk) 23:37, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Changing the title of this discussion section to POV push is very unhelpful. Stop doing that. If you want to change the article you'll need to get agreement from other editors, and antics like that are not going to help in doing so. MrOllie (talk) 01:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Pastilla is a traditional Moroccan dish that has its roots only in Moroccan cuisine

Pastilla, also known as bastilla, is generally considered to be a traditional Moroccan dish that has its roots in Moroccan cuisine.

This book supports the idea that pastilla is a traditional Moroccan dish The Food of Morocco by Paula Wolfert. In the book, Wolfert describes pastilla as a "famous Moroccan pie" that is often served as an appetizer or main course.

Similarly, in the book Couscous and Other Good Food from Morocco, also by Paula Wolfert, pastilla is described as a "rich, sweet-savory, and spicy Moroccan dish."

The Food of Morocco by Tess Mallos is a cookbook that includes recipes for traditional dishes such as couscous, tagines, and pastilla. Mourad: New Moroccan by Mourad Lahlou features modern takes on traditional Moroccan dishes and includes a recipe for duck pastilla. The Moroccan Cookbook by Hilaire Walden provides an overview of Moroccan cuisine and includes recipes for a variety of dishes, including pastilla. Authentic Recipes from Morocco by Fatima Mernissi includes recipes for traditional Moroccan dishes, including pastilla. The Complete Middle Eastern Cookbook by Tess Mallos provides an overview of Middle Eastern cuisine, including Moroccan dishes such as pastilla. Overall, these sources indicate that pastilla is a traditional Moroccan dish and is not commonly shared with other cultures or countries.

In the article, some sources link confirming, that Pastilla is not exclusive traditional Moroccan, are no longer working and are not a book or solid source. Prospeak (talk) 07:35, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

April 2023

@إيان: please explain what has changed between the time that we discussed the issue and agreed on it and now? M.Bitton (talk) 14:06, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Hello M.Bitton,

I believe you are now in violation of WP:3RR on this article. I won't report you, but just a heads-up.

As I explained in the edit summary, there is a difference between agreement and simply not having the patience at a given moment. The contribution in question:

According to Ken Albala, the basic concept of pastilla was likely brought to Morocco by Moorish Muslims who left Spain in the 16th century, or perhaps earlier, because there had been considerable traffic between Morocco and Spain since the Moors conquered the latter in the seventh century.

The historian Idriss Bouhlila—while acknowledging that most of the people of Tetuan consider the dish to be of Andalusi origin—lists baṣṭīla (بصطيلة) among the Ottoman Algerian terms and dishes brought to the city with the Algerian migration to Tetuan in the aftermath of the French invasion of Algiers in 1830. Citing Bouhlila, Gaul deduces that pastilla's thin, crispy werqa pastry, like the phyllo of baklava and other desserts originating in the Eastern Mediterranean, arrived with the Algerian migrants to Tetuan, and spread from there to the rest of Morocco sometime after 1830. Gaul also notes the important role of dadas, women of West African descent employed as domestic servants in wealthy households, in the diffusion of the dish in Morocco.

Reflist
References

A: fixes chronology of history section (Albala discusses 16th c. while Gaul and Bouhlila discuss 19th c.)

B: clarifies what exactly is in Gaul and Bouhlila

C: introduces the important role of the dadas in the dish's diffusion in Morocco.

Please substantiate your POV, that this is to please the nationalist crap. إيان (talk) 14:36, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

1) You haven't answered the question (what is now "exact" that wasn't when you agreed with it?). 2) Could you also please explain why you removed the sourced statement "Bouhlila's study corroborated Gaul's theory"? 3) there is a difference between adding content and reshuffling it to suit one's pov (while removing content without a valid reason). 4) Do you have a reason to believe that WP:AGEMATTERS should be ignored? M.Bitton (talk) 14:39, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

If you read the source, the "Algerian exodus" theory appeared in Zette Guinaudeau's 1956 cookbook. Bouhlila in 2012 did not retroactively corroborate Gaul in 2019.

You haven't answered the question. —as I have already explained, this a red herring.

You have not yet substantiated your claim my contribution is to please the nationalist crap. إيان (talk) 14:51, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

If you read the source of the two historians who agreed with each other, you'll notice that it's from 2019. I see that you ignored the other questions (I wonder why). M.Bitton (talk) 14:53, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

This is nonsense and WP:casting aspersions. Age does matter. Gaul (2019) cited and contextualized Bouhlila (2012). That's the relationship between the two texts. Your objections are unfounded. إيان (talk) 15:14, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

The only nonsense here is the fact that you're turning agematters on its head and rewording the content that you previously agreed with to suit your POV. Pathetic! M.Bitton (talk) 15:21, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi Roxy the dog, would you kindly provide diffs and quotes for personal attacks you claim that I made? Also, which of my claims are unfounded? إيان (talk) 16:33, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

You made a baseless claim of personal attacks to justify your POV pushing and sourced content removal. M.Bitton (talk) 16:37, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

M.Bitton, the question was directed to Roxy the dog. Is it your account? إيان (talk) 16:39, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Are you accusing me of sockpuppetry? M.Bitton (talk) 16:41, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I haven't accused you of anything. I was wondering why you presumed it was your place to interject with your POV and on a question clearly addressed to someone else. إيان (talk) 00:04, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Roxy the dog? إيان (talk) 21:14, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes you have and I can provide the diff to prove it. You clearly asked me in no uncertain terms if "Roxy the dog" is my account. That's a serious accusation of sockpuppetry directed at myself and "Roxy the dog". M.Bitton (talk) 21:17, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Look who's talking! Unlike إيان you've been directly accusing me of sockpuppetry since i joined wikipedia 2 months ago! Simoooix.haddi (talk) 00:44, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Also i don't think إيان is accusing you of sockpuppetry. What they said is clear and understandable. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 00:47, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm not a pocksuppet, but am feeling rather unwell at the moment, I can click Twinkle buttons, but dont ask me to think hard. - Roxy the dog 19:49, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Ngrams

Even Ngrams disagree with this whole nonsense in food articles. Pastilla:[1], Harira:[2] and Tajine: [3] . Simoooix.haddi (talk) 15:46, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

here we go again

@M.Bitton the source literally states "Origin:Morocco", and this should be mentioned in the article one way or another, You can rephrase it if you want but don't remove sourced content.

"We follow the text, not a stray word" the so-called word is part of the whole text! It's not "stray", that's not an excuse at all.

"it cannot originate from it and be brought to it from Spain (at the same time)": that's another usual OR from you. Where exactly in the source it is mentioned that it was brought from spain? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 21:32, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

1) You reverted MrOllie (who actually read the source properly). 2) the word "origin" is not part of the text (the explanation). 3) If you have difficulty understanding the meaning of "brought to Morocco by Sephardi Jews", then I suggest you ask someone to help you. M.Bitton (talk) 21:40, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton

1)- Yes i did and i have explained why.

2)- "The word "origin" is not part of the text (the explanation)" yes, and?

3)- I also suggest you read the article of Sephardic Jews, since you attributed them to Spain (like your usual OR). Also "brought by Sephardi jews " doesn't necessarily mean brought from outside Morocco. Sephardi jews existed in Morocco as well, that's a scholarly source and it's not likely to contradict itself (as you suggest). Simoooix.haddi (talk) 21:59, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

brought to Morocco by Sephardi jews doesn't necessarily mean brought from outside Morocco This is so hilarious, it needs framing. M.Bitton (talk) 22:09, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton Alright, could you explain what would a scholarly source mean by this : "Origin:Morocco"? even a 5 years old child can understand it. You clearly suggest that the source is contradicting itself. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 22:19, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

@M.Bitton and @MrOllie neither of you gave any valid reason for your edits yet all what i see is OR. And M.Bitton, you didn't answer any of my questions yet, you're just trying to impose your baseless POV.

Also why did you remove the preview i added? Simoooix.haddi (talk) 00:05, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

The wording of the source is clear, and it is not the "brought by Sephardi jews" misquote you're arguing about above. The correct wording is "Sephardim brought pastilla to Morroco" which does necessarily mean it was brought from somewhere else. Since the Sephardic Jews come from Andalusia this is obviously Marks agreeing with the theories of the other historians cited in the article. Also, it is not required that you agree with our reasoning in order for it to be valid. See WP:SATISFY. MrOllie (talk) 21:23, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

@MrOllie ,Thank you for your reply. Gil Marks didn't mention anywherein his book that pastilla was brought from Andalusia (or Spain). Sincr he didn't precise the historical context of its origin and Sephardi jews existed in North Africa as well (a quick read of sephardi jews article could confirm that) we cannot directly conclude what he meant by that ( I think you already know what that is called). Anyway, I'd be glad if you just answered the question i asked M.Bitton above (which they didn't answer yet): what would a scholarly source mean by this : "Origin: Morocco"? And do you suggest that the source is contradicting itself? SimoooIX (talk) 22:22, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm tagging @MrOllie since they are involved in this. Simoooix.haddi (talk) 22:36, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Full protection, 2 days

Y'all need to work this out here on the talk page before making any further edits. Valereee (talk) 10:07, 7 April 2023 (UTC)