Talk:Libyan civil war (2011)

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Zimbabwe and Belarus?

Can someone please explain the rationale behind listing these countries as belligerents to a non-Russian-speaker? Thanks! Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 09:07, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

They were pro Gaddafi. Belarus basically just follows what Russia does, and Zimbabwe follows what China does Farbne (talk) 05:54, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Do you have any sources to support this or is it just your personal opinion? - wolf 08:04, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2011/0830/Zimbabwe-expels-Libyan-ambassador-after-switch-of-allegiance-to-rebels

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-libya-zimbabwe/gaddafi-mugabe-want-federal-government-for-africa-idUSL143127320070614

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8432996/Libya-Belarus-mercenary-paid-1900-a-month-to-help-Gaddafi-forces.html Farbne (talk) 21:16, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Why you don't include Zimbabwe? Their 5th brigade participated in conflict Пале (talk) 05:29, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

See MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. FDW777 (talk) 05:46, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Took long to remove it, but finally I have removed it. Infobox should not include highly dubious information. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 14:59, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

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Requested move 17 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Rough consensus to move; editors agree that the current title is inappropriate, but disagree - or have no opinion - on what title would be appropriate.

As such, there is not a consensus as to where to move it, but the proposed move had the most support and so I am choosing to move it there per WP:NOGOODOPTIONS. Editors may open a new move request at any time to discuss alternative options. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 13:02, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

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First Libyan Civil War → Libyan Civil War (2011) – there were other civil wars in that area before the 2011 one. Also, I added 2011 at the end, for indexing reasons.WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 14:20, 17 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 02:24, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

There is no civil battles before the 2011 revolution 102.69.49.136 (talk) 00:12, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

It was a civil war, not just a revolution. What about the Tripolitanian civil war? WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 05:55, 31 July 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. S.L. 17:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

that was pre-Libya, when it was called Tripolitania - as such, is already naturally disambiguated Iskandar323 (talk) 07:40, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Still few sources name this article as such. However, most sources reffer to it as the Libyan Civil War, but we could add 2011 in it to remove confusion. WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 07:00, 2 August 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. S.L. 17:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

 Comment: So what about the Second Libyan Civil War? Parham wiki (talk) 20:52, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

It should be changed to the Libyan Civil War (2014–2020)? WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 05:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. S.L. 17:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

There was an RM on that that unfortunately closed the "wrong" way (I'm pretty sure I voted against), so it would probably require a new RM to move back. The sourcing that the later conflict was commonly called the "Second" War was rather thin IMO. That said, even if the 2014 war is kept at its new title with "Second", there's no need for a forced "consistency" argument here anyway, given that wars are very frequently named in ways that are arbitrary and require matching the sources rather than imposing an order that may not really exist. SnowFire (talk) 18:13, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

• Strong support. This article was moved on invalid grounds anyway as there were several earlier RMs, yet it was moved on a technical request despite being potentially controversial. There was no evidence offered this specific event was commonly or even rarely called the "First" Libyan Civil War, although unfortunately some citogenesis might have happened since the undiscussed move. So both the procedural default should be to restore the old name or a variant thereof, and I'd also support restoring the old name on the merits anyway since it is descriptive and clear, while "First" is basically made-up. SnowFire (talk) 18:10, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose, no civil conflict in Libya has ever been referred to as the Libyan Civil War before. Plus, the "Tripolitanian civil war" is not notable enough to justify moving this article, and this 1920–1922 Jabal al-Gharbi civil war is sourced by one book. The only civil wars in Libya that are notable in the modern era are the 2011 one and the 2014-20 one. The fact that it's technically not the first civil war in Libya is not valid grounds for a move on its own. - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 22:16, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, the main argument isn't a legalistic one that this wasn't technically the first civil war, but rather the practical one that no sources other than Wikipedia mirrors post-2021-move seem to call this conflict "First Libyan Civil War", regardless of "which" civil war it was. SnowFire (talk) 01:09, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

The issue is that the title makes it sound like the common name for this event is the "First Libyan Civil War", which is not true. If there are two civil wars at different times, and there are no established common names, the right approach is to use parenthetical disambiguation per WP:QUALIFIER. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 01:41, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Also, I’ve searched on Google Scholar “First Libyan Civil War” and no source had “first” in its name. WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 19:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. S.L. 17:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support some kind of move: If this event is not actually known by this name, and we have to disambiguate between other events, the right thing to do is follow WP:QUALIFIER. The solution of adding the year as a parenthetical qualifier falls within this policy. Having said that, I'm not sure exactly what it should be moved to; I just know that the current title is bad. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 01:45, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose proposed, but support move to 17 February Revolution, which is a naturally disambiguated title for this particular "Libyan revolution", per WP:NCDAB. This name is routinely used in scholarly literature to disambiguate the conflict, including in a titular manner, as seen here in the Routledge Handbook of the Arab Spring. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:16, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
• Note: Also see Talk:Second Libyan Civil War#Requested move 6 August 2023 — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 08:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@BilledMammal: since this is a no good options close, please can I request the you amend your close slightly so that we use the sentence case variant Libyan civil war (2011). From an ngram [1] we can see that sentence case enjoys a slight lead, and therefore title case is nowhere near the "consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources" bar required to treat it as a proper name, per MOS:CAPS. There seems no policy reason why it should be capitalised as it is now. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 22:21, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

That's reasonable; I've requested it at WP:RMTR, as the page is move protected. BilledMammal (talk) 06:55, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 16 August 2023

Libyan civil war (2011) → 2011 Libyan uprising – This page should move to 2011 Libyan uprising, as a both naturally disambiguated (per WP:NCDAB) and descriptive title (per WP:NCE) that also finds prevalence in scholarship. While "civil war" is one descriptor for this event, the majoritarian language for this event is as a "revolution" or "uprising". As Ngrams shows, there are more results for "revolution" and "uprising" overall than for "civil war". Of these two near synonyms, the terminology of "uprising" specifically is the most effective for disambiguating the event from the earlier revolution in the 1960s, since the terminology of "Libyan uprising" is fairly unique to this event as a specific move against a perceived dictator/Arab Spring uprising. "2011 Libyan uprising" also appears to find slightly more prevalence in scholarship, at 314 hits in google scholar to 262 hits for "2011 Libyan revolution". If all of the different names for the event are plugged in together, you will also see that uprising or revolution generally emerges on top. But ultimately it is a choice, as this source notes, different sources and authors use all of the terms “revolution,” “civil war ‚” and “uprisings” to capture different dimensions of the events unfolding in Libya from February to October 2011. But per the points put forward above, I would suggest that 2011 Libyan uprising is the best choice. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:26, 16 August 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:08, 29 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 02:11, 13 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 23:58, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, the “2011 Libyan uprising” was the most known title in 2011, but now the “Libyan civil war (2011)” is the most known title. Even the “2011 Libyan Revolution” seemed better than uprising, since Gaddafi was overthrown, which normally happens in revolutions. 2A01:CB1D:636:9B00:290B:FD8A:D638:8FEB (talk) 14:27, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

A "civil war" title, aside from seemingly not being the most prevalent, risks considerable confusion with the more enduring and significant civil war beginning in 2014, just three years later. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:41, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

In libya its called as the 2011 Libyan revolution. Therefore you have no right to name it other than what the libyans themselves call it. its either going to be called "February 17 Events" or "2011 Libyan Revolution" 102.69.43.149 (talk) 21:19, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Never have i ever seen someone call it an uprising in libya, refer from calling it any other names that the locals themselves dont use, "2011 Libyan Revolution" is the only acceptable title 102.69.43.149 (talk) 21:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

NB: I have no objection to and would also support 2011 Libyan revolution as the title. As noted above, the level of usage of these two terms (most notably the scholarly usage) is fairly comparable. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:26, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Africa has been notified of this discussion. —Usernamekiran_(AWB) (talk) 22:08, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Arab world has been notified of this discussion. —Usernamekiran_(AWB) (talk) 22:09, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. —Usernamekiran_(AWB) (talk) 22:09, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Sociology has been notified of this discussion. —Usernamekiran_(AWB) (talk) 22:09, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to 2011 Libyan coup d’etat - It was a coup carried by the west, using rebel groups.

188.25.122.194 (talk) 17:21, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not supporting that and Ngrams provides little sign of its usage, Iskandar323 (talk) 17:36, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

I would not support that, due to the fact that it was a 8 month long deadly civil war. Coup d’état gives off the idea that it was a quick overthrow of the Government. Also, no one refers to it as a coup d’état, most would refer to it as the Revolution. S Molecular (talk) 02:41, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - This Google ngram shows that the Libyan civil war has higher results.

188.25.122.194 (talk) 18:12, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

But that's only part of the picture; as the initial Ngrams showed, revolution also exceeds civil war, and revolution and uprising combined hugely exceed civil war. And scholarly titles clearly favour one of these other two titles. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:35, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose - I think it's best to keep the current title of Libyan civil war (2011) or move to the title 2011 Libyan civil war. For the sake of WP:Neutrality, I think maintaining the status quo of the current title (or changing to 2011 Libyan civil war) is the best option compared to the proposals to move it to "2011 Libyan uprising" and "2011 Libyan revolution". This is because, in contrast to a traditional revolution or uprising where the governing regime has little to no support and is suddenly or swiftly overthrown, in this case there was a civil conflict (i.e. a civil war) between the Gaddafist regime and its supporters and the rebels which lasted 8 or so months. As stated in the article, there was also an insurgency of Gaddafi loyalists after the end of the conflict, which is uncommon for your typical nationwide 'uprising' or 'revolution'.

Basically, in my view this would be more accurately described as an uprising or revolution if Gaddafi didn't have any supporters and was otherthrown quickly in a span of a month or less. Instead, he had a base of support and held on in a somewhat protracted civil conflict (protracted in the sense that he held on for so long despite the NATO intervention and the rebellion). Therefore, to keep it neutral I think we shouldn't move to uprising or revolution. ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 21:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

@ThatRandomGuy1: Proceeding along these lines and assessing whether we think the terms are correct is going a little bit beyond our remit as editors - this versus gauging the prevalence in sources, which is a very policy-based approach. However, on your interpretation of the term 'revolution', on what basis do you suggest that revolutions are quick and easy? Sure, some can be, but perhaps the most archetypal revolution, the French Revolution, lasted 10 years. The Russian Revolution lasted 6 years. The American Revolution lasted 18 years, with its final conflict alone lasting 8 years. So eight months, in the grand scheme of things, is barely a mouse squeak of a revolutionary period. I think you are thinking more of coup d’etats, which - being just the very limited removal of a head of state - tend to be quicker affairs. A 'traditional revolution', on the other hand, tends to involve the wholesale removal of the executive branch or government and the ripping up of constitutions (Libya's here was ripped up) etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:26, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Looking back, I admit I was wrong with the time span argument. I hadn't known that those revolutions lasted so long and was looking at it from a more modern/recent perspective. Well, I say that, but in my ignorance I neglected to note that there have been revolutions in recent years which took a prolonged period of time too, like the Yemeni Revolution for example (over a year!), even if the ones I can think of (more modern/recent ones) were swift like I said.

However, I do still prefer the status quo of Libyan civil war (2011) or moving to 2011 Libyan civil war due to my understanding of the conflict (there were two sides, Gaddafi had genuine support in large parts of the country and was expected to win if not for the NATO intervention, from my understanding of the term a revolution usually has widespread majority support all across the country, etc); in the words of another editor above, this conflict was a civil war, not just a revolution (if you think of it as one that is).

I'd also bring in WP:COMMONNAME in my argument. Looking at Google Ngrams, it's clear that 2011 Libyan civil war is the more common name of this conflict than 2011 Libyan revolution and 2011 Libyan uprising: [2], [3]. While the uprising looks very close to the term civil war in commonality and is also more common than revolution, if you add both 2011 Libyan Civil War and 2011 Libyan civil war (upper+lower case because for some reason Google doesn't count both of those together unlike with the others), the term civil war wins against uprising by quite a margin.

The issue with the Ngram which you use is that the term "Libyan Revolution" also refers to the bloodless coup in 1969, more commonly known as the Al Fateh or 1969 Libyan revolution, and with Gaddafi's death that event would also be mentioned quite a lot at the same time as the 2011 conflict due to obituaries, country profiles, conflict explainers, etc., making it more questionable as evidence of being the more common name. Hence, my position is still to oppose the move to revolution or uprising per WP:COMMONNAME and per the nature of the conflict itself. ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 19:48, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that doing a Google search of the terms 2011 Libyan revolution (12,200 results), 2011 Libyan uprising (6,930 results) and 2011 Libyan civil war (32,700 results) also shows that the term civil war is the more Wikipedia:COMMONAME for this event.

Likewise, on Microsoft Bing the results come up as 2011 Libyan civil war (446,000 results), 2011 Libyan revolution (55,000 results) and 2011 Libyan uprising (23,500 results), once again showing that the term "civil war" is the most common by a large margin.

OP also mentioned Google Scholar, which returns 420 results for 2011 Libyan civil war, more results than uprising and revolution which as he states returns 314 and 262 respectively. Thus, it is actually the term 2011 Libyan civil war which has more prevalence in scholarship, not 2011 Libyan uprising, again adding support for the argument that this event is more commonly refered to as a civil war. Calling it a civil war is also more descriptive as the conflict itself can be described as a civil war with different conflicting sides and support bases (Gaddafi in the West and South, NTC in the East), in turn making it more WP:NEUTRAL than 2011 Libyan revolution which implies unanimous support rather than mixed support. ThatRandomGuy1 (talk) 20:17, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Support a move to 2011 Libyan Revolution since it centered on the successful overthrow of the Gaddafi regime. But uprising is better than civil war. --Plumber (talk) 17:21, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Support move to 2011 Libyan Revolution per prevalence in RS, above comments, and my personal understanding of the term revolution and how this event qualifies as one. Either way it or uprising are clearly preferable to the current title. Yeoutie (talk) 19:30, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Support move to Libyan revolution - 1. It qualifies as a revolution and many sources are calling it like that. 2. We will not use the year because the 1969 coup does not count as a revolution. 3. Using the 2011 Libyan uprising title feels like we are in February/March 2011, at the begining of the conflict.

UkraineFella (talk) 19:30, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

My bad, the 1969 Libyan revolution was changed already, so the 2011 Libyan revolution would indeed work. UkraineFella (talk) 20:27, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

And we’ll not capitalize revolution because it’s not a common name, like the French Revolution. UkraineFella (talk) 20:28, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

It is indeed a common name the Libyan Revolution is a controversial topic 102.69.49.142 (talk) 16:45, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Move to 2011 Libyan Revolution already if thats what the libyans themselves call it 102.69.49.142 (talk) 12:05, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Support alternative: Move back to First Libyan civil war under WP:COMMONNAME. AmericanBaath (talk) 18:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Can you provide sources for that? UkraineFella (talk) 16:42, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

'''Support Alternative''' : Change it to "The February 17 Revolution." This term was the most commonly employed title for the Libyan Civil War. The majority of individuals referred to the conflict as "ثورة ١٧ فبراير" (translating to 17 February revolution) in Arabic, with only a small number using "The Libyan Uprising" or "The first Libyan civil war." Among English-speaking Libyans, the prevailing reference was "Revolution" rather than "civil war," while Arabic speakers in Libya would denote it as "ثورة ١٧ فبراير". That makes the most sense. S Molecular (talk) 02:38, 16 October 2023 (UTC)