Talk:Death of Paul Kessler: Difference between revisions

Content deleted Content added

Inline

Latest revision as of 01:35, 30 April 2024

While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard.

Biography

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	An appropriate infobox may need to be added to this article. Please refer to the list of biography infoboxes for further information.
	An editor has requested that an image or photograph be added to this article.

California: Southern California Low‑importance

	California portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject California, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of California on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CaliforniaWikipedia:WikiProject CaliforniaTemplate:WikiProject CaliforniaCalifornia articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by Southern California task force.

Crime and Criminal Biography Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Death Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

International relations Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Israel Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Project Israel To Do:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:

Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles.
Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page.
Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration.
Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005
Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel.
Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah
See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Wikipedia.
Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data.
Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes.
Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention.
Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Wikipedia requested maps in Israel.
NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries
Photo : Add pictures to articles in Wikipedia requested photographs in Israel.
Stubs : See Israel stubs.
Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People
Other :
- Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary.

Israel Palestine Collaboration

This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration, a collaborative, bipartisan effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. For guidelines and a participants list see the project page. See also {{Palestine-Israel enforcement}}, the ArbCom-authorized discretionary sanctions, the log of blocks and bans, and Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars. You can discuss the project at its talk page.Israel Palestine CollaborationWikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationTemplate:WikiProject Israel Palestine CollaborationIsrael Palestine Collaboration articles

Jewish history Low‑importance

	Judaism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Palestine Low‑importance

	Palestine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:

You must be logged-in to an extended confirmed account (granted automatically to accounts with 500 edits and an age of 30 days)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.

"Killing of" or "Death of"

If the lede sentence contains "allegedly being assaulted", then using the word "Killing" in the title is taking a position. Wikipedia shouldn't do that. - Immigrant laborer (talk) 00:14, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. This takes a stance on the situation unsupported by the evidence. Eduffman (talk) 19:15, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You two don't think Kessler was killed? Don't be deceived. 69.113.233.201 (talk) 06:52, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No I don't believe yet that Kessler was killed and I'll hold that view until the prosecutor can prove otherwise to a jury. It's very easy to believe an old man running around on concrete in a crowd tripped and hit his head. Similar things happen tens of thousands of times a year across the US, if not even more often. The man was playing on his phone sticking it in the faces of pro-Palestinian protesters and probably didn't pay enough attention to step up onto a curb while walking backwards.

Sad but not a killing until it is proven. Eduffman (talk) 13:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not really sad considering he caused it all himself. Seems to be a common theme with pro israel people who end up getting hurt, doesn't it? 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:595B:EFBF:BFB4:C90D (talk) 14:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You mean he killed himself because he was old and unfit and tried to start a fight? You let yourself be decieved, there's nothing "antisemitic" (lmao) about his death as well. 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:595B:EFBF:BFB4:C90D (talk) 14:55, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

“…non-lethal facial injuries that could have resulted from being hit.”

Source 2 listed in the citations for this article states that injuries to Paul Kessler were "'…consistent with and typical of injuries sustained from a fall,' Dr. Christopher Young, the chief medical examiner for Ventura County, told reporters.

He also suffered internal injuries consistent with a fall, like skull fractures and swelling and bruising of the brain, Young said."

This seems to point to a conflict between information presented in sources 2 and 9 that should be resolved. Eduffman (talk) 19:04, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Mention of a possible hate crime in the introductory paragraph should be removed.

Civil and law enforcement authorities have been questioned extensively and to this date, to the extent of sources available here, have refused to indicate they believe a chargeable offense has been committed. No arrests have been made after the search of a suspects home and vehicle. Authorities have not yet even signaled they have evidence of any physical contact between the two men.

Wikipedia should avoid calling a situation call a hate crime before any authorities have signaled that any level of criminal activity has been committed in the situation. Eduffman (talk) 19:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The DA says "the evidence did not support hate-crime charges"

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/california-man-pleads-not-guilty-manslaughter-death-jewish-protester-2023-11-18/ 2600:4040:5AEA:6800:C87D:96D5:ECF0:B9C0 (talk) 00:11, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Non notable and bias

not enough evidence to make an article and neither of the individuals are notable, and you can smell the bias in the article. This article is a bad reflection of Wikipedia. 73.138.58.221 (talk) 00:08, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

BLP violation

Loksmythe I must warn you against making edits like this[1] which make negative allegations against a living individual in wikipedia's voice that have not yet been proven. Any allegation must be attributed until its proven and RS themselves make it in their voice.VR _talk 22:20, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Missing a comma in the incidents tab which makes things confusing. On mobile rn, so can’t recall exact wording, but it was in the sentence starting with a statement from the defense lawyer. 2607:FB60:1011:2006:F8AF:2970:5145:9E6D (talk) 21:45, 8 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Done EggRoll97 ^(talk) 00:18, 9 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Update based on more recent information

In the first paragraph, it appears the statement, “ Kessler's death has been ruled a homicide and authorities have not ruled out the possibility of a hate crime.” is no longer accurate.

According to this article, the sheriff and attorney general have determined that there is not enough evidence to consider this a hate crime: https://www.ojaivalleynews.com/news/crime_and_courts/court-dates-set-for-man-charged-in-pro-israel-demonstrator-s-death/article_09416e9a-8f0f-11ee-bc06-5ba626f3066a.html

Because charges have already been filed, it seems they did rule out the possibility of hate crime since the source posted on the original statement came out. 32.221.155.183 (talk) 14:54, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

why is this listed as a crime?

An accident, maybe. This isn't like a Palestinian child being stabbed to death by an arch zionist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:595B:EFBF:BFB4:C90D (talk) 14:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source 1 says: “ The death of the man, identified by law enforcement as Paul Kessler, has been ruled a homicide, authorities said. The 50-year-old suspect was detained but later released and has not been arrested, Ventura County Sheriff James Fryhoff said in a news conference, and Kessler’s death remains under investigation.

Witnesses say Kessler was “involved in a physical altercation” with at least one counterprotester while pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian rallies were being held in Thousand Oaks, the Ventura County Sheriff’s Office said in a news release Monday.

“There was clearly an interaction between the two, but what that level of interaction is, is still unclear,” Fryhoff said, asking members of the public who witnessed the incident or had footage to contact authorities.”

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/07/us/thousand-oaks-protest-man-dies/index.html 49.183.70.173 (talk) 01:35, 30 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 65: / Line 65: @@
 An accident, maybe. This isn't like a Palestinian child being stabbed to death by an arch zionist.  <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:595B:EFBF:BFB4:C90D|2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:595B:EFBF:BFB4:C90D]] ([[User talk:2607:FEA8:A4E5:6A00:595B:EFBF:BFB4:C90D#top|talk]]) 14:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
+:Source 1 says: “ The death of the man, identified by law enforcement as Paul Kessler, has been ruled a homicide, authorities said. The 50-year-old suspect was detained but later released and has not been arrested, Ventura County Sheriff James Fryhoff said in a news conference, and Kessler’s death remains under investigation.
+:Witnesses say Kessler was “involved in a physical altercation” with at least one counterprotester while pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian rallies were being held in Thousand Oaks, the Ventura County Sheriff’s Office said in a news release Monday.
+:“There was clearly an interaction between the two, but what that level of interaction is, is still unclear,” Fryhoff said, asking members of the public who witnessed the incident or had footage to contact authorities.”
+:https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/07/us/thousand-oaks-protest-man-dies/index.html [[Special:Contributions/49.183.70.173|49.183.70.173]] ([[User talk:49.183.70.173|talk]]) 01:35, 30 April 2024 (UTC)