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==Removed status==
==Removed status==
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Felix the Cat}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Battle of Incheon}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Absinthe}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Rudyard Kipling/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article review/Rudyard Kipling/archive1}}

Revision as of 14:53, 9 October 2008

Pages are moved to sub-archives based on their nomination date, not closure date.

See the Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates/archive for nominations under the previous FARC process.

Archives

Kept status

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by User:Marskell 11:06, 9 October 2008 [1].

Half-Life 2

Notified: Nufy8, WP Video games, Tom Edwards (top 2 of 3 contributors no longer active)

Fails current FA criteria in several ways. First and foremost, 1c; there are many unsourced, potentially contentious statements not sourced, and worse there are entire paragraphs not sourced. Another issue is the excessive use of nonfree images (crit 3), as well as unnecessary detail (such as weapons info, and a ridiculously long synopsis section.) --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:12, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I corrected your notifications. When notifying, please use the subst FAR message (in this case, {{subst:FARMessage|Half-Life 2}}) so that editors who come straight to this page without seeing the FAR instructions will understand the process. Also, I corrected your links at the top of this FAR; giving a complete link to the notification page makes it easier for others to check that notifications are done correctly. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:01, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I completely disagree that this is an undue amount of synopsis for a full-length video game. Many film featured articles have comparable length summaries, and are for two hours, not the 40 hours a full-length game usually takes up. Phil Sandifer (talk) 02:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Somewhat of a side issue, but Content cut from Half-Life 2 doesn't strike me as a valid article topic. We might consider merging that into this article. I also question the structuring. It seems to me that some of the "Technical" section should be combined with "Source code leak" into "Development". Possibly "Cuts" as well. Pagrashtak 04:20, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    I will agree with merging it back in, as the information could be considered plagiarism for the fact it only has one source. A severe trimming should be had on merging, also. It should make the article stronger overall, as I'm sure the citations in the book could be valuable for sourcing other sections, such as Development.
    Also agree with merging Cuts into Development; perhaps Source code leak should be merged into the article on the Source engine, or at the least up into the section on it, as I'm willing to bet that that is largely duplicated in the target of such a merge. The contract dispute can probably be merged into the section on Distribution. Also agree with trimming #Synopsis; the setting should be inherent from the plot description alone, and so I think that section could probably be axed completely.
    I also agree that order is poor: Reception should be moved to being near the bottom, at the least.
    All those issues, aside from the citations and other issues. However, with the remerge of the "cut" information, I think that will alone substantially improve the text. --Izno (talk) 04:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • For one it is not sourced (a single reference is not "sourced"), and two, depends on who you talk to. Looking at the article with my eyes, I'd say you'd be able to get away with not reading the book, which is the purpose of copyright - to protect the user's work. And hence, it is plagiarism to me. Rules may vary depending on who you ask, of course. --Izno (talk) 05:08, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Plagiarism and copyright are different issues. But given that the book is, well, a book, and we are a short summary, I would guess there's plenty in the book beyond our summary. Certainly it is valid under any standard of copyright we have used regularly, been told to use by Mike, or that has been tested in court. As for plagiarism, plagiarism is a completely different concept with a firm definition, and this has nothing whatsoever to do with it. And a single reference is indeed sourced. More sources would be lovely, but that article is not unsourced. Phil Sandifer (talk) 06:14, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, here's my concerns with the article:
  • The gameplay section needs some substantial copyeditting, and some of those subheadings could be merged into the main bulk of prose. It also needs more references.
  • The synopsis section is too long, and needs to be brought down a bit. A restructure could be in order, with three headings: "setting" (approx 1 paragraph, summarising backstory and location), "characters" (approx 1 paragraph, introducing key characters and their roles) and "plot" (approx 3-4 paragraphs, concisely summarising the plot).
  • Cuts, technical, soundtrack, source code leak, and contract dispute could all be put under the title of development, and they need copyeditting and perhaps a bit of reorganisation. Some more references are also needed. Content cut from Half-Life 2 is simply unnecessary, it is not an appropriate, verifiable and notable topic, and should be summarised very concisely in this article rather than spun out, reliant on a single primary source and reading like a fansite.
  • The reception section needs to be expanded significantly. The critical response section is painfully underdeveloped for a game of this importance, and there's absolutely nothing on the game's impact on the gaming industry and its influence on the genre (beyond a brief mention in the intro), which significantly affects this article's comprehensiveness. The merchandise section could also use padding out.
  • The expansions and modifications section could use copyediting and more references as to keep down the possible self-promotion of mods in the mod section's prose. The "subsequent releases" stuff should go under this heading, which should be modified to reflect this.
  • A total of ten non-free images (including box art) is really pushing the idea of minimal usage. For obvious reasons, the box art can stay, although I'd like to see a little bit of commentary on the different box arts available (I believe they sold the game with Alyx and G-Man on the front as well), the infobox caption could be a good place to briefly mention that if it can be referenced. Six gameplay images aren't needed, I'd recommend two at most, one for demonstrating normal gameplay (preferably with some design commentary if possible), and another that shows off some Source effects. The image of Steam isn't 100% needed, although could be justified as Steam was a major factor in the game's release and ran into problems for it. The Orange Box image certainly isn't, and should be ditched. The Lost Coast image is also probably best left to the Lost Coast article.
Sabre (talk) 10:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the content cut article, I am fairly sure that "there's another article on the topic that is poorly written" is not a valid criteria for de-listing an article. Phil Sandifer (talk) 17:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The other reasons are, but we're not talking about delisting yet. This is just in the review stage, we haven't got to removal candidates and with luck we won't need to. Besides, there is no harm in mentioning that a related article is an utter pile of [insert expletive] and should be done away with in some form, when the only significant link on Wikipedia is from the article under review. What happens to the content cut article isn't going to affect the review, it just seems as good a time as any to clean it out. -- Sabre (talk) 17:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Considering how intensive Half-Life 2's development was, a future Development of Half-Life 2 article is not unrealistic. The Content cut from Half-Life 2 would find a suitable home in such an article. About this FAR, should we each grab a chunk of the text (e.g. a section), copy-edit it, and then proof read each other's work. I'm eager to dive in and help save the article (considering its my second favorite game and my FAC seems stalled), but I don't want to get too carried away. Thoughts? -- Noj r (talk) 06:19, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have given a first stab at cutting down the plot (down to 3 paragraphs, I think that is a pretty fair size). Should still have a setting section, but make sure that this doesn't overlap with City 17 (or Sabre's List of locations in Half-Life that I know he has floating around...) --MASEM 16:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have organized the article. It should look better now. Gary King (talk) 00:05, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • It seems a major issue is that the plot and gameplay are screwed up for anyone who hasn't played the game. I've condensed the synopsis more, but I think the characters section should be refactored and shunted into synopsis, and the gameplay rewritten (and sourced this time) so it doesnt start talking about 'Ravenholm' and such until the reader gets to those story elements. Similarly, the plot specific details (such as riding a bugger during X part of the game) can be entirely excised. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 04:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I have straightened out the references in the lead and am going to work on the gameplay prose and references next. The plot references need to be supported by a reliable source, e.g. Half-Life Fallout appears to be a fan site. This IGN walkthrough should do the job nicely for the plot section and perhaps most of the gameplay section. EDIT: Finished copy-editing the gameplay section. I cut out a lot of cruft and added references. Feel free to improve on the language and add any significant gameplay features I might have missed. Thanks, -- Noj r (talk) 02:08, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent, it's looking a lot better now. The article has already improved a lot in the past few days. Gary King (talk) 02:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Pshaw, I know you're just after another FTC star :P Looking further at the development section, I can't help but think that it might be better to merge together some of the headers and go through a more focused, historical view of the development. The Steam section and Soundtrack would remain seperate, but the rest of the information might be better served reformatted and with some additional content focusing on the inception. I know there's Raising the Bar out there at the very least, along with primary sources, so it shouldn't be that hard to bolster the section. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 02:35, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Off topic moved to talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:36, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've made some major changes to the article. Could we please start back at the beginning and people list what the article still needs? Preferably in bullet points. Gary King (talk) 16:30, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's still absolutely nothing on the cultural impact and influence on the industry, which I would imagine is rather substantial, save for a brief mention in the intro. That puts a hole in the side of the article as far as comprehensiveness goes. -- Sabre (talk) 17:14, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Got specific sources for that? I wouldn't know where to begin, and I don't really keep up-to-date with Half-Life 2 news. Gary King (talk) 17:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sort of forgot about this little gathering. :-p I've never been a huge fan of the article myself (I don't even remember being that big a contributor!), but I think its problem is that the game was important almost solely because it was so very, very good; not something on which you can really go into great depth in an encyclopaedia article. We might want to talk about its impact on the rest of the industry (physics, character animation and digital distribution off the top of my head) as just mentioned, but that's all a bit wooly and hard to be objective about. --Tom Edwards (talk) 17:53, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine the fact that the source engine, which was developed primarily for Half-Life 2, has been used by other non-Valve games, is probably worth a mention - rst20xx (talk) 21:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It already says "Several other games use the Source engine developed by Valve including the popular Day of Defeat: Source and Counter-Strike: Source, both of which were also developed by Valve." Gary King (talk) 23:44, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That covers Valve's Source powered games, but not the few dozen non-Valve games that use Source -- Sabre (talk) 10:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How's this? Gary King (talk) 14:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that should do. -- Sabre (talk) 16:31, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say, I absolutely hate the idea of breaking off the development information. The length of the prose wasn't that long that it needed to be broken off, and seems to needlessly sidestep dealing with the development section, which in my view was reasonable anyway. I'm going to restore the two sections put into the article, that approach simply isn't needed, especially when you condensed the other sections into one so well. Other than on the issue of spinning out the development section, I'm rather content with the article now, and support its continuation as an FA.

And whilst we're on the subject of spinoff content, might I recommend that some point in the future (could be now, could be after this FAR concludes) that we merge Half-Life 2: Deathmatch into the multiplayer section of this article. There's very little information in it, and due to the fact its just the single-player game with a couple of added weapons, its highly unlikely that it can be expanded on substantially. Most of its content is game guide stuff anyway. HL2DM does have some independent reviews from places like GameSpot and IGN, but it shouldn't be too hard to incorporate them into the article. -- Sabre (talk) 16:17, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I killed Development of Half-Life 2. I've also organized Half-Life 2#Production. Gary King (talk) 17:22, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm not entirely happy with that, there was a lot of (okay, unsourced, but sourceable?) information lost in that "merge" - rst20xx (talk) 22:54, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sourcing isn't the problem (well, it was, as most of it is only sourcable to a primary source, but that's besides the point). WP:IINFO comes into play there, the information in that article generally required players knowledge of Half-Life 2 and to a lesser extent Counter-Strike Source. The average reader who hasn't played the game would have trouble following it, or would wonder why a good amount of it is significant. -- Sabre (talk) 23:02, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I killed off HL2:DM (redirected to #Multiplayer). There was basically nothing to transfer. The only suggestion I might add is that that section have a copyedit, and the specific month of release of HL2:DM added, rather than "3 months later". --Izno (talk) 00:22, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Doctor Breen’s office at the top of the Citadel, showing the advanced lighting abilities of the Source engine" (image caption) - I haven't played this game and can't remember the last time I played a Source game. As such this caption does very little for me. It looks like a normal light (to me), the caption is basically saying "nah, it's a special light!" without saying why, or without the image making it clear why. The unfamiliar reader (like, um, me) would be a bit confused. IMO. Giggy (talk) 23:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ok, I think the problem here is with the image, rather than the caption. It is in-game, just a light emitter, there's nothing that special about it. I could go for a shot from the beginning of the game, showing the G-man up close, which incorporates effects like color correction, advanced facial animation, lighting and various other effects. -- Sabre (talk) 23:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Distribution could use citing, as well as the 2nd paragraph of #Contract_dispute. And probably #Third-party_mods. Other than that, it looks much improved! --Izno (talk) 06:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Alright it should be better now. Gary King (talk) 15:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've updated the image I referred to earlier, with a different angle incorporating some lighting effects. The image is here, is that any better for in the article? Its got a nice bit of sun coming across the rooftops, clear soft shadows on the ground, a metrocop with some alpha shading (not very visible at this resolution though) and the Citadel in the background. -- Sabre (talk) 19:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Status. What's up folks? Does this need to go to FARC? Marskell (talk) 08:44, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I shouldn't think so, I think editor concerns have been addressed. Practically all of mine certainly have been. -- Sabre (talk) 10:26, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't taken another look at the prose, but I'm assuming it's still in good shape. All my actionable concerns above have been addressed. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 11:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think we could probably include a little more about the reception of it, but other than that, I should say HL2 is safe from FARC. --Izno (talk) 16:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by User:Marskell 11:06, 9 October 2008 [2].

Death Valley National Park

Notified Mav, Vsmith, and WikiProjects: California, Earthquakes, and Protected areas.

This article, promoted to FA status back on February 5, 2005, requires improvement to maintain the current standards expected of a Featured Article. My main concern is that the article is lacking references and inline citations. -- Longhair\talk 23:02, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could the nom (or anyone) go through with {{fact}} tags. Even though even the very brief glance I did I can see that with only three inline citations it is easier to point people responding for what to look for cites on. I'm also going to notify two additional projects listed on the article talk page. -Optigan13 (talk) 23:50, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No need for that until after my first referencing pass. --mav (talk) 00:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hold This article does need more inline citations but already lists all the references used. Please be patient - I already have two other FARs and an article almost ready for FAC that I've been working on so I might not be able to do much here at least one other FAR results in a Keep. BTW, isn't there an informal concept to limit the number of active FARs any one person or WikiProject is expected to address? --mav (talk) 00:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The most basic informal rule here is that you can simply ask me and Joel to leave things open. If you want to defer work for some time, give a hold or a wait. This just started in FAR so there's plenty of time. Marskell (talk) 12:40, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note I haven't moved the Geology article to FARC for this reason. Marskell (talk) 12:47, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Understood - thanks. I added a hold. --mav (talk) 15:31, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sandy beat me to it, but work on addressing FAR concerns has now started. My ref-pass shouldn't take too long; hopefully we will be mostly done by the end of the weekend. --mav (talk) 01:55, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why "Telephone history" is there, and it's full of undefined jargon. If it's kept, it needs better linking and a lot of WP:NBSPs. I'm not going to work on it yet, because I can't understand why it's there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:21, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Telephone history" section moved to talk - not needed for the article anyway. --mav (talk) 00:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I moved around all the images to make image layout conform to WP:ACCESSIBILITY and WP:MOS#Images; I don't know if I ended up with the optimal location for each image in the "Geologic history" section. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Inline cites for Geology of National Parks added. Still a few more sources to go through. --mav (talk) 00:58, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Inline cites for Geology of U.S. Parklands added. Still a couple more sources to go through. --mav (talk) 01:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yet more inline cites added. Only a few paras left uncited now. Once that is done, I'll do a final copyedit and fix the telephone section (which was added after this article became FA - I've never really liked it anyway). --mav (talk) 03:47, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Section-by-section copyedit and final ref-pass now complete. I think we are done now... --mav (talk) 00:40, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good work mav. I pinged Sandy for a second opinion. Marskell (talk) 08:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just gave it a copyedit and MOS cleanup. I left a couple hidden comments in the text (noted in edit summaries) requesting clarification on some sentences I couldn't parse. The only other remaining issues I can see pertain to images. There are so many images in Geologic history that the text is repeatedly sandwiched between images, and there are two image galleries in the Biology section. Given that there are 28 images in the article as a whole, can we prune some of the poorer-quality/less-relevant ones? Some likely candidates: Image:Zebra tail lizard.jpg has a deprecated license; Image:Death valley flowers 1.jpg has enormous artifacting; and Image:Sphinx moth on rock nettle at Mosaic Canyon.jpg doesn't appear to have been taken at DV. Maralia (talk) 00:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mosaic Canyon is entirely in the park and empties into Death Valley. But yeah, some images need to go. :) --mav (talk) 03:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maralia and Jbmurray have both been through, so we should be in good shape here, but there are a lot of images; I struggled with how to organize them, and they need more work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:32, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see about removing some images and rearranging the ones that remain. --mav (talk) 03:15, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Several images removed and other moved. I also added some sub-sections to the geology section. --mav (talk) 04:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As the instigator of this review, I just want to add that this article has progressed ten-fold from what I initially saw six weeks ago. Credit goes to those involved in recognition of their efforts in bringing this important article back up to FA standards. I'd say it's very close to a FA, if not already there. -- Longhair\talk 03:22, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for initiating the review - I'm normally too busy to do more than maintain my old FAs from deteriorating unless I'm prodded by a FAR to improve them to current standards. The inline cite requirement has been a killer for many old FAs. --mav (talk) 03:30, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for giving you more work? I guess that's a compliment of sorts. We've got ourselves a very nice article now :) As I said above, a credit to all involved. -- Longhair\talk 03:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is an opportunity to polish the FA star. :) --mav (talk) 04:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! Some really good copyeditors have done a great job in the past day on this article. Great work! --mav (talk) 03:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by User:Marskell 12:09, 3 October 2008 [3].

The Adventures of Tintin

Notified WP COMICS, Hiding, Midnightblueowl, Fram
previous FAR (10 August 2006)

Big parts of the article are unreferenced and it therefore fails the 1(c) criteria; "factually accurate" and the 2(c) criteria; "consistent citations". --TheLeftorium 18:10, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've straightened out the archiving of the old FAR (fortunately I remembered it, although it wasn't listed here). Since the article was cited during its FAR two years ago, please specify which "big parts" you're referring to with specific examples of facts that are likely to be challenged. Consistency in citation formatting is unrelated to whether citations are lacking; please provide examples of 2c issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, more specific information on where additional citations may be needed would be helpful. --Dragonfiend (talk) 23:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I worked on this the last time around, and whilst I'd have to go back to the library to get two of the books out again, I'd be prepared to bet that it is almost all verifiable to either Mills, Thompson or Farr, given the article has barely changed since the last FARC, [4]. Consistency of citations is a sofixit issue, no? Hiding T 11:31, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for fixing the footnotes. I'm sorry I wasn't more specific. The problems I see are that much in the "Memorabilia and merchandise" section is unreferenced, especially the "Shops" and "Coins" sections. Also, the first three paragraphs of the "Theatre" section are completely unreferenced. --TheLeftorium 13:52, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm seeing cites in the "Memorabilia and merchandise" section and in the "Shops" and "Coins" sections. Everything in the shops section before the cite is sourced from that cite, that's how I write, I don't put the cite after every sentence but at the end of everything so sourced or the end of the paragraph if it goes beyond one. The coins one looks like it has changed since, but does have a cite. The theatre section shouldn't be too hard to cite, the first sentence is attributable to Comics: Anatomy of a Mass Medium - Page 184. Don't have time to add it now, but do you mind me asking if cite tags might have been better than a FA review? It looks to me like there are what, three or four sentences that could be challenged. We've got an FA on the main page now in the same state. Hiding T 14:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I suppose. Sorry for causing trouble. I'll add cite tags were I feel they are necessary. --TheLeftorium 14:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done! Someone could probably close this review now. --TheLeftorium 14:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NOT YET - some statements/paragraphs lack citations. I just found a couple of examples:

  • ---In music, Tintin has been the inspiration to a number of bands and musicians. A British technopop band of the 1980s took the name The Thompson Twins after the Tintin characters. Stephen Duffy, a former member of Duran Duran, performed the minor hit single "Kiss Me" under the name "Tintin"; he had to drop the name under pressure of a copyright infringement suit. Duffy would later release the album Designer Beatnik under the name "Doctor Calculus" in reference to Professor Calculus. An Australian psychedelic rock band and an American independent progressive rock band have used the name "Tin Tin", and British electronic dance music duo Tin Tin Out was similarly inspired by the character. South African singer/songwriter Gert Vlok Nel compares Tintin to God in his Afrikaans song "Waarom ek roep na jou vanaand", presumably because Tintin is a morally pure character. Australian cartoonist Bill Leak often portrays the bespectacled neophyte Australian prime minister Kevin Rudd as Tintin.--- This entire paragraph needs at least one source for every claim of the song made or the copyright issues etc.
  • The 'Books' section is only a sentence. Way too short. Either summarize the main article and expand it into this article or remove the section all togethor me thinks. Domiy (talk) 06:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I never thought any of that was likely to be challenged, to be honest. But it can still be solved with cite tags or people fixing the problem themselves, can't it? Hiding T 10:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Closing. I edited this during the first FAR. It was extensively gone over and I don't see much to criticize now. Marskell (talk) 12:03, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by User:Marskell 12:03, 2 October 2008 [5].

Aaron Sorkin

Notified: WP Biography, WP Actors and Filmmakers, WP Screenwriters. Top contributor and FAC nominator BillDeanCarter has not edited since February 2008 and 2nd top contributor, Bwith, has left Wikipedia. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think this article needs a lot of work, despite its remarkableness as a source of information on Aaron Sorkin. I have removed the section "Controversies" and placed its subsections within the article in almost appropriate places, for the sake of narrative flow. A serious copyedit is now in order and was already in order due to several stubby sentences and paragraphs throughout. Additionally, Thomas Fahy's book listed in the "Further Information" section, Considering Aaron Sorkin: Essays on the Politics, Poetics and Sleight of Hand in the Films and Television Series should most definitely be used as a reference throughout the article. How unfortunate that it is not used! One section it could help improve would be the "Writing process and characteristics" section. There is also an interview in GQ listed in the "Further information" section that is not used but could be used in the "Writing process and characteristics" section.

The "Personal politics" section should be expanded (Again, use Fahy's book). The "Returning to the theatre" section should be rewritten and expanded. The "Castle Rock" section should be shrunk, and the business about "Kyle Morris vs. Castle Rock" should be better sourced and put into context. The "West Wing" section is crap, should be rewritten, with the "Rick Cleveland" controversy mentioned--this is a legitimate controversy unlike the Kyle Morris one--but with a better narrative flow. There is very little criticism of the shows and films, good or bad. In my opinion, the best sections are the "Early years" section and the "Writing process and characteristics" section. It also disturbs me that Sorkin's personal life is unevenly handled; his dating life and his politics should have a part to offset his drug use, because he is not really wholly a drug addict. Let's show he's human. Also, is there anything good that can be used in the "Castle Rock" section from the 2001 "From Stage to Screen with Aaron Sorkin and Rob Reiner, A Few Good Men" documentary, that is listed in the "Further information" section? Homely Features (talk) 08:51, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have found many more problems:

  • I have added my own 'citations needed' tags to certain facts, but there were already many such tags in the article. Is the separate "Awards and honors" section necessary? Shouldn't it maybe be incorporated into relevant sections? As in, yes, and then he won the award for that show or that film, whilst critics said this and that too. There is a weird tendency to be very listy in this article. It results in a badly written article with little narrative.-Homely Features (talk) 08:55, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I like this sentence from the Studio 60 section: "The seething anticipation that preceded the debut was followed up by a large amount of thoughtful and scrupulous criticism in the press, as well as largely negative and feverish analysis in the blogosphere." But why isn't it followed up with examples of such criticism?-Homely Features (talk) 08:57, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • And what is the nature of Sorkin's relationship to the Obama Campaign? There is an interesting question on the talk page from Agrant33074. Did he really help with a campaign ad in 2004? Do we know everything about these political works by Aaron Sorkin?-Homely Features (talk) 09:05, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is a "Personal politics" section really necessary? Shouldn't the information maybe go into the "Personal life" section? It seems like Sorkin's personal politics are being played up simply because he is known for The West Wing, although whenever he does say something it manages to get pretty wide media exposure, making him a little more important than Matt Damon and that "actuary tables" reading he did on John McCain's life expectancy.Homely Features (talk) 09:40, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Redundant information about awards received: "As a writer, Sorkin received an Emmy Award for Outstanding Writing in a Drama Series (The West Wing)." from the "West Wing" section is later repeated in the "Awards and honors" section.Homely Features (talk) 09:41, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do appreciate the effort that was involved in writing this article and what an accomplishment that is, but I must point out where the article can be improved. I'll help out where I can, but the job is big.Homely Features (talk) 09:13, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Notification Request Please notify relevant wikipedia projects and significant editors and place these notifications at the top of this FAR (as per instructions on the top of WP:FAR). Thanks! --Regents Park (one for sorrow) 13:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone sophisticated in these policy matters take the necessary action?Homely Features (talk) 07:53, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that hard, but it is a lot of elbow grease. Post {{subst:FARMessage|Aaron Sorkin}} to the talk page of each WikiProject listed at Talk:Aaron Sorkin, the original nominator on the FAC, and any other sigificant contributors. Then list them back at the top of the FAR here, following the example at Wikipedia:Featured article review/Felix the Cat. We're all busy; when you nominate an article, it helps if you try to learn to do this bit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:52, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but if I don't do this could we still de-list this article when we all agree it is not up to par?Homely Features (talk) 19:06, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you could benefit from reading the WP:FAR instructions yourself. We're not here to "delist when we all agree it's not up to par"; we first try to enlist all the help we can find to bring it up to par. That's why you do the notifications. You are seeking to improve Wiki articles, right? And if you don't do the notifications and someone appears at the last minute, willing to work on the article, then the FAR can last two or three months. Please do the notifications. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see. I may have to read the WPFAR. I think it *might* take months to fix this article so if that is alright then alright. It will cost about 35$ to read the Considering Aaron Sorkin book, and the other book about The West Wing will cost money too, unless you have one of those good libraries with copies of these rather obscure books. I can't promise to get these notifications done this weekend, but maybe next week.Homely Features (talk) 11:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but I will not notify all Wiki people who were involved in this article. It is terrible. I don't think they would be of any help if they were originally involved in this article. It should never have been an FA and it will take much much much work to ever achieve FA. There is no criticism of any of his works. There is a lot of quirky bits here and there... God damn strange article if you ask me. Time to roast this article and let it earn its way to the top.Homely Features (talk) 15:28, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Dabomb87 for notifying everyone. I believe I am going to have a heart attack if I read anymore of this article. It's terrible. There was an anonymous Yahoo biography used as a source. I'm not sure why a Bartlett4America News Archive is used for Reuters wires of all things. Those are pretty easy to come by. I am finding shockingly abysmal prose throughout. I am beginning to think a rewrite from scratch is needed.Homely Features (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The absolute outrageousness of it all

This article is so bad that I am shocked at what I'm finding. According to a Variety article [6] The Farnsworth Invention began in 2003 as a commission for a play! Not a screenplay first in 2005, and later rewritten as a play. Erroneous information is everywhere. Jizz magazine was being used as a source for this erroneous fact. How much of this article is wrong I wonder now.14:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Homely Features (talk • contribs)

Why am I the only one finding these errors? They are blatant.-Homely Features (talk) 14:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Remove This article isn't even a Good Article. Start the process over again, from scratch. Let this article earn its way to the top.-Homely Features (talk) 13:39, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There is not a "Speedy remove" option at FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Homely, I'm concerned about the editing you've done to the article, as you've removed a large amount of text and a large number of citations. I've asked others to look in here, and I'm wondering if a revert to the September 6 version and rebuilding from there a bit more slowly might be in order. The article appears to have been in better shape then than it is now, and improving sources or seeking new sources, is preferable to deleting citations. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with SandyGeorgia. A very substantial amount of damage seems to have been done to this article Since September 27. References were removed, and then 'cite needed' tags were added! I am trying to WP:Assume good faith, but it appears that the changes reflect a political WP:Point of view. I returned the article to the September 27 state for now. Instead of replacing the language in this article with which you disagree, HF, I suggest that you prepare a statement of why you think the references that you removed are incorrect and let editors here discuss it and reach a consensus before making the changes. Thanks! Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To cover all of these edits, I think you'd have to go all the way back to September 6th, when the Obama-related edits began. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:43, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have to agree with SandyGeorgia and Ssilvers on this as well - the edit summaries alone are enough to raise serious questions about this editor's agenda - see this one in particular. I completely agree with the revert to earlier version and recommend that some action be taken regarding this SPA who seems to have quite an agenda. Tvoz/talk 05:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have now reverted back to Feb 2008, which was the last date the FAC nominator edited the article, and begun restoring from there. I'm not sure we'll be able to save this star unless someone takes over this article, but I hope we can at least repair the damage that has occurred since the nominator left Wiki in Feb 2008. We will need many people to start going through as I don't know what all needs fixing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are no Obama-related edits. Let's not be ridiculous.Homely Features (talk) 07:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, you're doing a disservice to the article. Read my edit summaries. There will blatant errors throughout the article. I removed the terrible references and added more reliable references. Homely Features (talk) 07:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many facts(can you even call something a fact when it is wrong?) were untrue and in some cases the exact opposite to what Sorkin had said in the given source. Some sources I replaced with others because they were either rinky-dinky or were actually not about the film. I have been trying to excise the sickness and have left a mostly correct article, with less redundant information, and citation needed tags everywhere so that these facts can be sourced. I have still not been able to find a source that states that 40 out of 45 Sports Night episodes were written by Sorkin.Homely Features (talk) 07:20, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is also a very very badly written article. It severely needs a copyedit unlessly badly written articles are de rigueur here at Wikipedia?Homely Features (talk) 07:22, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • My agenda is to fix this article. It is ranked #1 in a Google search which is unacceptable considering how many errors are in it. I can't stress enough how much fixing this article needs. Too many liberties taken. His years at Castle Rock were supposedly "formative" according to this article but nowhere could I find such a fact. Nowhere could I find many other facts, and often I discovered the opposite, that they were in fact untrue.Homely Features (talk) 07:26, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Problem, Homely. Three editors above have agreed to revert the article so it can be restored more systematically, and you just reverted against consensus. That's edit warring; please see WP:3RR. Some of your edits were surprisingly good for a newly registered editor, but your edit summaries are problematic, you've deleted some text unnecessarily, and you've removed some citations unnecessarily, leaving the text littered with tags. And some of your edits or edit summaries appear to be agenda-based. Restoring the article is going to take some sustained effort, but edit warring and leaving the article in a damaged state such as it is in now, regardless of whether it retains featured status, are not viable options. Your edit summaries, and attitude on this FAR (about not notifying other editors and insisting that the article be defeatured rather than addressing issue) don't indicate that your primary goal is to produce a quality article; while some of your edits are good, others appear to be dismantling the article rather than fixing it. Collaborating with other editors will be necessary to restore the article; edit warring against consensus will only get you blocked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:31, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The previous state of the article was ridiculous. Pieces of information about The West Wing were spread out into every section needlessly. I have moved them all into The West Wing section. The "Controversies" section was very evil. The "Cleveland" controversy was legitimate but belonged in The West Wing section. The "Morris vs. CAstle Rock" controversy was a small fiasco, proven wrong, and if you have noticed is never mentioned in the mainstream media, because it was probably one of many such lawsuits, this being the loudest. It does not make for a standard reading of Sorkin's career to include such a controversy. Also, the treatment of his drug addiction was evil too. It does not have to be mentioned in every section and then separately in the Controversy section.Homely Features (talk) 07:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, in the "Writing charcteristics" section, aside from the redundant information I removed, many facts were flatly wrong. In fact, I was disgusted to learn in the given source that Sorkin had actually said the opposite.Homely Features (talk) 07:37, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have not removed a single source that was reliable and useful. There were blogs, ummmm..... and some other bad sources. It was quite shocking. I'd have to go through and see exactly what those bad sources were again. Why aren't any of the books that I have put in a "Themes and recurrent motifs in Sorkin's works" section being used?Homely Features (talk) 07:42, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a very new Wikipedia editor, although I have been reading it for a long time. I don't think this deserves to be considered a Featured Article in its present state. It's badly constructed and badly written. The introduction seems overly long. The section about The West Wing is far too long considering the program has its own article and much of the information here pertains more to the program than Sorkin himself. IMHO, I think this article needs a lot of work. LiteraryMaven (talk) 15:55, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome. Someone making sense. Yes, I have thought that too, that the West Wing section should be restricted to Sorkin anecdotes (not all flattering) and maybe more about the awards he won, rather than what the show won. In Jason Buchanan's bio at All Music Guide he sums up Sorkin's awards won succinctly I think. Will have to re-read that. But with regard to Ssilvers note: I can no longer look at that old FA. I have done enough of that and I believe rooted out all the misinformation and placed appropriate citation tags where facts that appear to be true need to be verified.Homely Features (talk) 16:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally, I don't think this article will make it because there really should be a "Common themes and motifs in Sorkin's works" and of course based on those two books of essays that I've placed in this stub-section. Without that, you can't really call this "best work" can you? And that section will take time to write.Homely Features (talk) 16:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To avoid more wikidrama, I am shutting this review down. Editor has been blocked and there is active discussion at AN/I. Marskell (talk) 11:55, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Removed status

Felix the Cat

previous FAR (14:53, 9 October 2008)

Battle of Incheon

previous FAR (14:53, 9 October 2008)

Absinthe

previous FAR (14:53, 9 October 2008)

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was removed by User:Marskell 12:04, 6 October 2008 [7].

Rudyard Kipling

Review commentary

Notified Dabbler, ‎WP Children's literature, WP Burma, WP Pakistan, WP India, WP Poetry, WP Books and WP Biography ‎

Rudyard Kipling is a 2004 Brilliant prose promotion, in need of review and tuneup. There are numerous citation tags, some prose issues, very poor image layout, and MoS cleanup needed. The lead is overcited and images may need review. The bottom of the article has taken on some listy cruft. Citation cleanup is needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments I made some changes with the images to ease the formatting problems in the first section. The major problem is the use of "center" for poems, the overuse of block quotes with images near by, and the excessive image descriptions. This, if done throughout, will ease about 85% of the formatting problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Brief review of the lead by Eubulides

Alas I don't have time now to read the whole article, but here's a brief review of the lead.

  • The lead's first sentence is unwieldy and does not satisfy the criterion in WP:LEAD #Establish context. It doesn't establish context and it only poorly says why Kipling is notable. Ideally, the lead's first sentence should briefly cover the entire arc of Kipling, including India, his best-known works, his popularity, and criticism over his prejudice/militarism.
  • The lead should not mention relatively-obscure works like Puck of Pook's Hill, Ulster 1912, Life's Handicap, The Day's Work, and Plain Tales from the Hills. Kipling's fame rests on The Jungle Book, Just So Stories, Kim, individual short stories such as "The Man Who Would Be King", and individual poems like "If—", "Gunga Din" and "Mandalay"; that's enough for the lead.
  • Poem titles like "If—" and short story titles like "The Man Who Would Be King" should be quoted, not in italics; see MOS:TITLE#Quotation marks.
  • Agree with SandyGeorgia that the lead is overcited. Try to stick with high-level relatively-noncontroversial stuff here.
  • The quote "innovator in the art of the short story" is out of place here. Reword using our own words.
  • The Henry James quote is not that famous. Really. It's not needed in the lead at all.
  • The Orwell quote is not needed in the lead. Reword using our own words.
  • The Kerr quote is way too long. Again, this stuff should be reworded in our own words.
  • Words to avoid: "However". "famously" (if it's in the lead, "famously" is implied).
  • What I sense from the lead is that there is a reasonably large amount of controversy among Wikipedia editors over Kipling, and that this controversy has been resolved by citing a lot of quotes in a sort of Simon-says style. That kind of style is not prose that is expected for featured articles; see WP:FA? 1a, which says the prose should be "engaging, even brilliant". Alas, this lead feels like it was written by a bickering committee.

Eubulides (talk) 17:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Swastika
A whole section certainly seems very odd. A mention somewhere might be nice (I remember being alarmed as a child when I saw the books). Perhaps one could work it in to a couple of sentences on his views on the Nazis. N p holmes (talk) 07:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As one of the people who contributed to the Swastika section, I think that it should remain because before it was in place in its current form there were lots of comments/edits about Kipling's supposed Nazi sympathies mentioning the swastika. Also as N p holmes has pointed out, it was significant in his experience of Kipling when he came across it. Dabbler (talk) 10:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Problems

The introduction is a mess: the second sentence is a classic example of Wikiprose (shoehorning of a biographical detail into a sentence devoted to other matter, Borgesian category schemes). The biography seems reasonable, but we don't get much clue to what the major works were about or why they were interesting. The treatment of his reputation is bad: broad brush positions that it's hard to believe anyone could hold supplied without citations; the same material reappearing at different points in the article. N p holmes (talk) 08:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image problems

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are referencing (1c), prose (1a), MoS (2), and images (3). Marskell (talk) 11:25, 21 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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