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Dispute over nominations being used in articles

I was hoping that we could establish a consensus on the general usage of nominations so there's no real grey area for this subject.

My proposal is:

1. A game like GTAIV should not have any nominations, as it has many more notable awards that it won.
2. A game like Kirby Super Star Ultra should have nominations, as the nomination it received is notable as it lacks anything better.
3. Some nominations are notable with no exception - Game of the Year, for example. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 18:30, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

You mean nominations for awards right? Took me a few moments to work out what sort of nominations you are refering to. This sort of stuff is very varied, it depends on who is doing the nominating. Some nominations mean absolutely nothing, but others should probably be mentioned, regardless of other awards: nominations for BAFTAs, Golden Joystick Awards or Interactive Achievement Awards would fall into that category in my view. If GTAIV was nominated for a BAFTA game award, that should be in the article. Nominations for less prestious stuff, like IGN Game of the Year, should be at editor discretion, dependent on other awards nominated for/awarded - ie if its actually won other game of the year awards, then adding that another journalist organisation nominated it doesn't really add anything. You say "dispute", is there a particular article in mind here? -- Sabre (talk) 18:41, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

It's a general dispute, I think, that people are having, but not an organized one. I am involved in two in particular: Advance Wars: Days of Ruin and Call of Duty: World at War. My opinion is if it wins no awards, then being nominated is its most notable reception of that kind. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 18:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree with that: if there are no awards, discussion on nominations in the article counts as useful commentary. -- Sabre (talk) 18:55, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I concede that certain nominations high-profile nominations, such as for Game of the Year from the AIAS, should be mentioned, but why should a nomination for Best Sound in ____ Game from a gaming site like IGN or any number of others be considered just as prestigious and mentioned in an article? You take away from the intent and impact of the awards if you act like the nominations are equally as notable. -- Commdor {Talk} 19:27, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Your proposal is that we shouldn't list legitimate commentary if it's the only commentary of its kind that exists, essentially. If a game is not awarded but is nominated, then it's notable, simply by the fact that we need commentary, and being nominated is nothing less then commentary. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

I withdraw from the discussion per my comment here. -- Commdor {Talk} 21:13, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

This sounds reasonable and makes sense. It's a good rule of thumb, and one I think most of the more active editors follow anyway. I'm not sure how it should be worded to easily convey the idea though. Maybe something like "Most award nominations are trivial in comparison to actual awards won. However, if no awards have been won, nominations from gaming organizations deemed reliable sources can help demonstrate a game's overall reception." (Guyinblack25 ^talk 20:42, 21 December 2008 (UTC))

I disagree. The proposal means that articles will generally be full with nominations (if an game doesn't "win [any] awards, then being nominated is its most notable reception of that kind"). How many games actually have won awards? You're effectively saying it's ok to add nominations to articles unless they won an award. While I would agree with this in prestigious awards (like BAFTAs or GOTY awards, as mentioned), saying its ok regardless of the award is overstepping (the argument on CoD: WaW is over "Best DS Shooting Game" and "Best DS Online Multiplayer Game" - I don't think those nominations are in any way notable). Thanks! Fin©™ 11:40, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Reading back, I see my thoughts are similar to Commodor's. Just like to point out that commentary from a respected source does not mean that commentary is notable. That an article is missing such commentary again does not automatically make commentary notable. Thanks! Fin©™ 11:50, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I do not think the spirit of this proposal is wrong, but I do think the wording and general guidelines need more clarity to avoid confusion.

In regard to articles being filled with nominations, that's something I think is and still will be much more prevalent with awards (see this version of Resident Evil 4). It's something we've had to deal with and probably always will. This proposal, however, is not an OK to flood articles with listings of nominations. As always, discretion and common sense should be applied to integrate the content into the prose. For instance, if a game received a lot of nominations, a separate section should not be created like it would be for awards.

I see nominations as more of an extra tool editors can use to talk about a game's reception and recognition. Award nominations are not the most importance aspect and should be treated as such, but I see no reason to exclude them. I remember a similar practice was used in Kingdom Hearts#Critical response and it passed FA, albeit over a year ago. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 16:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC))

I agree - if no awards are given, there's no harm in giving it the next best thing. Call of Duty: World at War for DS doesn't have as much reception as other games, and anything that could help would help. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 22:13, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I think some nominations, if notable (eg IGN GOTY) should be included, but, again, I don't think all nominations should - is "Best DS Shooter" really as notable as "Best 360 Shooter"? CoD: WaW has a 78/75 Gamerankings/Metacritic, whereas Left 4 Dead (comparable nominee for 360 shooter) has an 89/89 rating. Including both on their respective pages would imply to the average reader that they were of comparable quality, which is not the case. I wouldn't have a problem with multiformat nominations being included, but when a game is nominated because it's one of the only examples of that genre on that console, then I really don't think it deserves to be in the article. Thanks! Fin©™ 11:17, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

That's a hard thing to decide. I, as a reader would like to see for what a game was nominated, but again some people may don't like it. I know that GTA IV has a great number of nominations and it won some awards. But a game like Air Traffic Control for the DS which had some nominations and won award should have his nominations listed. Some of you talked about DS best multyplayer and X360 multyplayer and you are saying that it one is more important then the other. That would be like if we would say Germany is less important then USA. Both are great and non of them should be excluded. In my opinion nominations for every game should be included somewhere but the awards should be there for 100%. I'm out to sleep. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnelZukic (talk • contribs) 22:59, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Comparing a nominee for Best DS Shooter to Best 360 Shooter isn't like comparing Germany and USA. It's like comparing a nominee for NFL player of the year against a nominee for German American Football League player of the year. On paper they mean the same thing, but they're completely different. I'd be fine with keeping nominations for multiformat awards (GOTY, Best Graphics, Best Story etc), but listing every nomination for every game would seriously clutter articles. Thanks! Fin©™ 02:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

You've never argued against every nomination being listed because such a thing has never been proposed. You've fought against any nominations. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 02:19, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

If you read my comments, you'll see I'm actually in favour of some nominations being included. I've said this three times by my count. I said "listing every game...clutter" in response to AnelZukic's "nominations for every game should be included". I agree with points 1 and 3 of the proposal, I don't agree with point 2. I don't think an article should contain (possibly non-notable) nominations just because the reception section needs expansion. Thanks! Fin©™ 11:42, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, I changed my mind. I would like to see the important nominations (any GOTY nomination, Best Graphic and Best Story, any platform nomination, and genre nominations 'cause one game can just be nominated for one genre unlike platform awards where multiplatform games can be nominated for any platform in came out) because I think they are really good to see because they are some strong awards, not any game can be nominated for best graphics and develop an awesome story. Platform awards are also crusial, because a platform becomes alot of games per year and to come in the Top10/5 is an award by itself and the same goes to genre awards. In my opinion some other awards are also important but not many peoples are intresting in it so I would like to see at least this nominations allowed to be in the award section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnelZukic (talk • contribs)

I disagree with the wholesale addition of "nomination" data to articles, especially when they're in as dubious categories such as "IGN's Best Fighting Game on the Wii"[1]. The addition of nomination and awards to a reception section should not just be wholesale inserted into every single game mentioned, it should be an editorial decision based upon what other reception the game has received and the award/nomination itself.

Publications such as IGN and Gamespot put out hundreds of awards, for every single genre, every single system, and more besides. That these awards exist does not mean that Wikipedia has to cover them. Unlike the Oscars or the Palme d'Or, these aren't a specific awards ceremony by an independent panel, they're just magazine articles. No other publication is going to cover the nominations for "Gamespot's Worst Use of a Great License", why should Wikipedia? Which publication doesn't offer their own "awards" issue? Which website doesn't use this excuse to provide coverage over the holiday period?

There's nothing wrong with leaving out commentary on articles, it's called being an editor. I don't think there should be anything added to the guidelines to suggest that award nominations must be added to articles with no other award information, given the vast amount of trivial awards floating about. In many cases, it might be more pertinent to just add more review sources in. - hahnchen 18:45, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

For many articles, nominations, even small, is the only commentary it has - Soul Bubbles and Robocalypse, for example, would have limited reception if not for these nominations. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 18:49, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the reception section for Soul Bubbles could be easily fleshed out without IGN nomination data. Metacritic lists 32 reviews for the game, there's ample fodder there to flesh out a reception section. Gamasutra also includes an interview with the developer which reflects on the game's reception.[2] I think that in this case, with three nominations, that the data could be used to back up whatever the IGN review said about the game. But generally, I don't think platform nominations are that notable, even some platform winners aren't notable - for example, IGN DS Best Fighting Game - there was absolutely no competition. - hahnchen 01:10, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

1. And none of those show how Soul Bubbles holds up to other titles of this year.
2. IGN also acknowledges that it's a good enough game to warrant the fighting DS game award. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 20:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Em, doesn't the Metacritic score show exactly how Soul Bubbles holds up to other titles? If you can't use Metacritic scores to compare titles then how can you compare them? Fin©™ 21:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

How often do GotY awards not reflect the score? What games were nominated for and what they won is of significant interest to readers. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Not if they were the only ones in their category. As cited above, many of these awards are incredibly minor. Unless there's a reason for an award to be included (i.e. Game of the Year, Worst Game, or Best Game Nobody Played to show low sales), I feel overall reviews can give readers a good picture of how a game compares to other games in a certain genre. You don't need an award from a certain year in a certain platform to prove it. -- Nomader ^(Talk) 23:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Awards are significantly newsworthy and notable, even if the game didn't win the award. If a game is nominated for a category that's not just "one or two games" included, then it should be considered notable. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 23:55, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

No, the argument against them is that these awards aren't newsworthy or notable - giving out hundreds of trivial awards which no other publication bothers to report on kind of shows that. When the AIAS announce their awards, that gets republished, Spike VGAs get republished, winners at the IGF get republished, IGN's Best DS Fighting Game of 2008 doesn't, because it's trivial. I'm not going to purposefully remove the nomination data you've autoinserted, but it's fairly obvious that not every nomination is notable, and that not all awards are equal. - hahnchen 14:39, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

While I agree some awards and nominations are not newsworthy or notable, per WP:N#NCONTENT, "Notability, in the sense used to determine article inclusion, does not directly affect article content." Plenty of viewpoints have been presented, but I think the discussion should move forward in a more constructive manner. It seems some most every agrees some nominations can aid in describing critical reception. Are there any suggestions as what the wording of such a guideline should be? Shark has some good ideas below. Any ideas on how to tweak, expand or reword? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 21:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC))

I think the idea of relativity is best. If a game was nominated for best graphics and won best music score they both should be listed as both deal with different elements. If a game won GoTY in its category it probably shouldn't have any nominations unless those nominations are of significant stature. Most exciting action scenes isn't up there with best storyline, FE.

Ideally, nominations or awards from a publication should be given equal weight regardless of how many of them (if any) a game has won instead of being left up to editors to decide. But some games have won so many that listing them all would fill up an entire article... SharkD (talk) 03:44, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I think there still has to be some differentiation between notable (GOTY) and non-notable (Best Character in a Wii RPG game, or something), regardless of the publication. What about keeping nominations and awards for multi-platform awards that are common between publication (eg Best Graphics, GOTY, not like "Worst Use of a License" or something), but only keeping awards for individual platform "Best Game" awards (eg Best DS Game, not Best DS Racing Game)? That would give full coverage to important awards, while avoiding the addition of non-notable nominations and awards. Thoughts? Fin©™ 15:49, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

That's true. My point was that if Game A and Game B both receive an award, then it shoudln't be considered more important in one case than the other. SharkD (talk) 09:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Game copies sold in infobox

I was just looking at some video games articles and found that most of them have the number of copies sold in the lead or mentioned somewhere. Wouldn't it be better if the Game sales be mentioned in the infobox. Like in the movies article, which have the box office earnings, there should be a profit section in the infobox and there should also be a production cost section. These sections should at least be available to be added if available. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:15, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a value that unfortunately is not readily available for many games (not that data isn't there, but often it is only available for-pay source). Movie figures are different since these are widely reported. Sales data is important, and thus should be a lead item, but because of the inconsistency if a game has it or not, it would be best not to require it. --MASEM 17:19, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Yep, finding the information is the biggest problem. Films are fortunate to have Box Office Mojo, although even less popular films don't always have sales information available. Gary King (talk) 01:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

The main infobox is getting rather big as it is. It might be better to break the info up into like-oriented topics. In this case, I might suggest adding the copies sold info to {{VG Reviews}}. I know the template has "Reviews" in its name, but the template itself is titled "Reception". SharkD (talk) 03:19, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Yep, might be a better spot. It does already include Awards, too (although to be honest, I rarely use the Awards part of the box since it stretches it way too much vertically). Gary King (talk) 15:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I would rather keep it out of both infoboxes. Pagrashtak 17:04, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the availability of the data is so hit and miss that inclusion in an infobox or the VG review template would prompt people to try to find bad sources to support sales data. (That is, I don't have a problem when using VGchartz if absolutely no sales is there, but stipulated that the data comes from VGC, but putting this in a template would obfuscate this and lead to the impression the data is accurate.) --MASEM 17:14, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

That's why you use references in the table. If you look at the example in {{VG Reviews}}, you'll see that several of the scores are followed by source references which will automatically appear in the References section of an article. As for the suitability of certain sources, this can be described in detail in the template documentation where users would look first. SharkD (talk) 20:28, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I believe Masem means stipulating VGChartz in the prose and not just in a reference that some people won't actually check.

I also agree that sales info should be kept out of both boxes. Video games just don't have a single, readily available source to go to like movies do. Also, some sources list units sold and others units shipped. I don't think there's enough standardized info for something like this to work as intended. (Guyinblack25 ^talk 20:58, 30 December 2008 (UTC))

Yes, the problem is the industry is different. Movies have an established venue when they're released (movie theaters) that has a long running network of accounting and tallying of ticket sales. Video games do not, they're released in a multitude of retailer formats (including downloadable now). The closest would be the movie industry's traditional "after market", i.e. home sales, and usually just gross earnings are reported for that rather than numbers of copies. That's about the closest we could get for a tally, but the only sources for those would be actual filings from the company itself (SEC filings), or press releases, etc. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 21:18, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

OK. I did notice that the topic was brought up earlier, and that the NPD was cited as a reliable source. Noone refuted it, so I assumed it was true. SharkD (talk) 21:35, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, in case there's confusion, I'm not suggesting that the addition of sales data be mandatory. Most if not all the fields in the template are already optional. SharkD (talk) 21:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

You're right, no one refuted it because they are one of the best sources for such data. They just aren't a readily available source. Most mentions in articles are other sources like GameSpot or IGN citing them, which isn't very often. To be honest, I don't think I've ever come across a citation directly from them, which kind of sucks. :-\ (Guyinblack25 ^talk 21:55, 30 December 2008 (UTC))

As I understand it their data is a subscription service which companies subscribe to to get sales data and magazines and websites subscribe to on a different license model that allows them to quote/republish figures. - X201 (talk) 10:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Fine. We could stipulate in the template that all data *must* be attributable to NPD to be considered for inclusion. SharkD (talk) 05:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem with that would be that NPD only covers the video game industries in Canada and the US, so NPD doesn't have sales figures on games released only in Europe or Japan. --Silver Edge (talk) 09:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I was already contemplating separating the sales data into regions. Each region would have its own row in the template. SharkD (talk) 12:47, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

The NPD Group occasionally releases press releases with video game sales information such as this and this, and there are press releases that date back to 2002. --Silver Edge (talk) 09:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:VG Collaboraton revival ideas...

Just wanted to share some ideas on the Collaboration revival. Everyone seems busy, and I'm willing to work on it myself, but I'd like to know what everyone thinks and hear some suggestions from you guys as I think we could really improve the process to prevent it from become stale again.

Well my first idea is to move it all to Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Collaboration, that way we don't need to stick to a specific time frame and can be flexible with it when necessary. Plus the page is more easily traceable than something with a completely different name.

I think one big thing that hindered the previous effort was the level of bureaucracy involved, particularly with the nomination process. I wondered if it would simply be better to just discuss what we're going to do on the talk page, seeing as everyone had an idea of what we should work on just in the recent discussion on reviving this. That way we don't also need to keep track of every nominated article and place tags on them (and just have a tag on the article we do to let people know what's going on). Perhaps the actual collaboration page could work as some sort of workshop for the current collaboration article?

But that's just what I was thinking anyway. I want to hear what you guys think we should do to improve the process, as we all seemed to agree in the aforementioned discussion that the previous system simply didn't work. --.:Alex:. 13:33, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Are you talking about Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Workshop, or Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Improvement drive, or Wikipedia:Gaming Collaboration of the week? I think if another were started, it should just be a revamp of one of those pages, as they're piling up. Also, I think the timeframe is important, otherwise when would we stop?

If you want to get rid of the red tape (which is a good idea), we could possibly automate it. It might sound silly but I'm being serious. We could assign a bot to automatically choose an article based on 1)start/stub 2)specific list of video game categories. If it makes a terrible choice every once and a while, it's no big deal because it's just for one week. The automation will keep people interested (like a lottery), and the fact that it is a bot prevents it from falling behind. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 00:16, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Kind of a mixture, mostly GCOTW. By workshop, I meant a sort of "hub" page for the currently selected article, so it's talk page doesn't fill up with all sorts of stuff. By time frame, I meant that there is a definite time frame, however it can be changed based on circumstances. So if it's a busy time for everyone, then the time is extended by X amount or reduced by X when everyone has a lot of time on their hands or changed based on what needs to be done etc(if this makes any sense). That way we're not always confined to a week or a month, as that can sometimes put people off.

But the idea of a bot selection process is a very intriguing idea, which I like the sound of very much. It would certainly keep things interesting. --.:Alex:. 00:26, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I like the idea of having an article per week, starting with the highest importance video game stub and going downwards. That way, it will make more sense than voting on articles.--_ZXCVBNM 02:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I think a sub page titled "Collaboration" would be fine. The other pages can be redirected, maybe a history merged. Personally, I don't think a week is long enough, not if GA or FA are the goal of the collaboration. I think last time we came up with 2–4 week time period as the general time frame, and just called it "collaboration of the month" just to give it a standardized name. You're right though that it should be flexible.

Bot nominations sound interesting, but I wonder how it would work and if it would work as we want. Though I'm a bit wary of the idea, I honestly can't think of any other alternative to an approval vote on nominations. Maybe trim down the number times we hold voting; instead of 12 times a year, we do it 2–4 times a year. Any other ideas? (Guyinblack25 ^talk 05:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC))

I don't think FA or even GA should be the goal (any more than it ever is), I think that many editors don't know what to do with a decent article. I think if we started with stubs/starts it would be more fun. I'd definitely want to contribute. And if you're doing stubs, then a week is perfect. Editors that like a particular article will probably stick with it afterward. The main reason I like the bot idea is that people will get bored with it. It is not a possibility, it will happen. That is why there are three inactive ones. Everyone likes the idea and then they have real lives and abandon it. A bot will take the pressure off, and make it fun and interesting. If a week goes by and nobody edits an article, the bot won't get discouraged. And it's something you are interested in checking in on, as nobody know what it'll be ahead of time. Voting is not interesting and it can kill any good idea. I mean, it's not a policy, or an RfA, or an AfD, it's just an article people are going to edit. Why have any bureaucracy? I know firsthand, I was very close to getting my nominated article to GCOTW when it was labeled as historical. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 05:37, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Well I'm certain it was the red tape that killed it, as everyone would get bored waiting for an article to be nominated and chosen. A bot is great because we can just give it a list of articles with certain attributes (importance or quality), push the magic button, BOOM "do article X", off we go and get on with it. It's something that should never really have had any bureaucracy in the first place. I also like the idea of merging the previous efforts histories (so we can get rid of all these obsolete pages on the same topic) and making them available on the new page. --.:Alex:. 15:02, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we should select the next article on an informal basis. A simple "what's next?" with a majority vote in the final week would be fine. As for articles, we should definitely stick to top or at least high importance articles. Stubs are good, but so are B or C-class. Randomran (talk) 01:53, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The endless forest

Could somebody take a look at The endless forest? Is this a notable game? It's been speedy-tagged and prod-tagged, and both have been removed. It has no references. The great amount of detail, not to mention all of the images, make me wary that there's conflict of interest involved in creating this thing. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 23:14, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that article is sure something, between the probably hoardes of non-free pics, the external links all over the place...except for none at the end. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 23:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

It looks like someone tried to move their website's FAQ into Wikipedia. Sigh...--_ZXCVBNM 23:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

It looks damn creepy is what it looks like. It's deer with human faces and they cast magic and eat things and lay down and rub each other. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 23:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

LOL! The artwork looks pretty, though. SharkD (talk) 09:11, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Archive search

The archivebox now has a searchbar. Sweet! ~ JohnnyMrNinja 03:17, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

If its no problem, I incorporate this to the archive box of WT:PW.--SRX 03:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Remember, all contributions are GFDL, so any archivebox can look as awesome as this :). And thanks to User:Rainman who (I think) actually got the search box to be able to do this, and then fixed the code on this page when I couldn't make it work. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 04:01, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Well the layout of numbers looks a bit strange, and so does the picture, but the search box looks and works great. I love this addition! --.:Alex:. 12:10, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I like your icon much better! The reason I changed the numbers is that the box was getting very long, and the sidebar is very long, so I was condensing. I'm not married to any idea though, except that sweet-sweet search bar. What's funny is I changed the width to match the sidebar, and so do you, so I think the sidebar is not consistent for different people... ~ JohnnyMrNinja 18:10, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it's text size that's doing it. I've set the box to match at to medium text size, but when I changed my browser's text size either larger or smaller it appeared differently. I don't know any other way to solve that dilemma... Oh I don't mind the numbers going along, it was just some of the numbers having their own entire line that I thought looked really, really peculiar. I guess it might look better if it's smaller, but I'm not sure how to change that one due to how convoluted the template is. We can still tinker with it, until we get something that's right. I'm still lovin' the search box though... --.:Alex:. 18:52, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Weird, it fit perfectly in my browser. Maybe that's why they chose 5 across... ~ JohnnyMrNinja 19:02, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

That's awesome! JACOPLANE • 2009-01-1 19:29

How about this -

~ JohnnyMrNinja 07:29, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Star Wars: Dark Forces

Hi everyone. I recently rewrote Star Wars: Dark Forces to clean it up, satisfy the various cleanup tags, remove OR, unsourced stuff, etc, etc. This was reverted however because I was told I did not have a consensus to make the edit. I'm posting here a request for people to look over the new version and the version that was reverted to so to build a consensus. There's a discussion started on the Dark Forces talk page if anyone wants to voice their opinion. Thanks. Bill ^{(talk|contribs)} 16:47, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The new version seems a lot more condensed and gets rid of things like unreferenced sections, fancruft, and lists. I don't see any reason to revert it back to the old, cluttered version. This seems like a case of disgruntled fanboy syndrome.--_ZXCVBNM 00:36, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Nice job on the article Bill. I don't think the reverter was disgruntled; after reading the initial comment, it just looks like they felt that it was "unfair" to all the editors who worked on the article that it gets changed so significantly. But, I think that ultimately your version is the better one; I see that it's the current version, so that's good. Gary King (talk) 02:24, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Article suggestion: An article for digital video games.

I plan on making it, as I think that it represents a sixth video game format (after handheld game, console game, arcade game, mobile game, and computer game). How should it be called? Merely digital video games? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 06:37, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Name might need changing : surely all video games are digital? --Oscarthecat (talk) 06:57, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but digital gaming is often the term used to describe this kind of game. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 07:04, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but what do you mean by "digital game"? Web-based or something? ~ JohnnyMrNinja

Digital downloadable games. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 08:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Not to be critical, but how does that warrant it's own type of game? Aren't they either console or computer games in the end then?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:28, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

So where do we discuss it in full? We can't discuss it in full on either articles mentioned, so what do you propose besides making an article? A handheld game is just a console game except handheld, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Digital downloadable games span every game-type with the exception of arcade, and have too much to be discussed to be covered in even the most remote capacity at any of those articles. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 10:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Eh... The concept of Digital downloads might be worth mentioning, but I don't know. --.:Alex:. 11:01, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps with a better explanation of what you're talking about, people might be able to offer more useful advice. In the meantime, all games covered by this project (save old-fashioned purely mechanical pinball tables) are digital. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 11:10, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I already explained what I meant, digital downloadable games. And the idea that any game falls under that desc. is pretty faulty, since I don't reckon that too many games are downloadable, save for PC games. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 11:14, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Downloadable games are as old as network connections and computer games. You'd be hardpressed to separate computer games and downloadable games in any meaningful way. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire - past ops) 11:18, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

It's obvious what I mean. You're making this discussion infinitely impossible to happen by overcomplicating things. I am clearly discussing digitally downloaded games, and not specifically computer games. I'm just completely lost where you say "we can't separate computer games and downloadable games in any meaningful way". I mean, I'm not sure how a sudden and rather large increase in popularity for downloadable games has been created on consoles, with every single competing system featuring one kind of download service or another. There are sections in several sites' 2008 awards for downloadable games, and the fact of the matter is that current-gen downloadables are treated as separate from games that may be downloaded on the PC. It's clear what I meant by "digitally downloadable game", and it wasn't "old PC games". - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 11:49, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The term is too mushy. Take something like Left 4 Dead, which has a console version, a PC version box you can buy, and a PC download you can buy. The two PC versions aren't "ports" but still the same game, the downloaded one is not "special" because its a digital download - it stills ends up being played on the same hardware and the like, which is the primary distinction between the above list of game classes, not how you get the game but how you end up playing it. --MASEM 11:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Surely you are talking about something like Digital distribution? "Digitally downloaded game" is not a separate video game format, but rather a method of distribution (so should we also have a "store-bought game" article?). --VPeric (talk) 12:17, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

If your having a problem with the name and getting your idea across to us users why not write the article down in a sandbox and then give us a link in order to provide a better insight. Salavat (talk) 13:07, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes...the digital distribution games fall under what you've mentioned. Even if a game is downloaded from an online source, it is still technically a computer game or a console game. It's unnecessary to make a new article for them (at least until we have holographic game)...--_ZXCVBNM 16:54, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Zxcvbmn above, as well as per a top-down philosophy; we should improve and promote the top articles, which gives us a better idea if such subtopics are merited. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 16:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

By the mere fact that digital distribution games are more notable than holographic games, they sort of get more priority. We already KNOW that digital distribution games are notable - we have many different services that do it, such as WiiWare, Xbox Live Arcade, PlayStation Network, DSiWare, Steam, etc. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:57, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I think Digital distribution in video games or something would be a good idea, but a method of distribution isn't really a defining factor of a game. A holographic game would be a different type of game, a "digital game" is like a "game bought from the store" or a "game that my friend burned on a dvd that he downloaded from a file-sharing site". How you get it doesn't really change the game. That particular method of distribution, however, I think could justify it's own article. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 22:10, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Digital distribution is a parent article for all that. Well, granted, it needs some expanding, but this is the sort of thing that should cover it. --.:Alex:. 22:12, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Digital distribution in video games is notable enough that it should warrant its own article. We see more and more examples of it on all five primary console gaming platforms, and we see it get more and more exposure from news outlets, such as its own section in the platform awards. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 22:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Nobody is saying the topic can't be discussed somewhere on here, it just doesn't warrant its own article over something like the already existing Digital distribution. And a delivery method (and an old one at that) does not make a new type of game class. The ones you described as "previous" formats are actually all different platform types, not game types. Downloadable games for computers have been around eons, downloadable games for consoles started with the Intellivision's PlayCable in 1981. I'm with the others, I just don't see the uniqueness as a game, or even where it can be called a new format. Its simply a distribution method, and one that can easily be discussed under the already existing Digital distribution --Marty Goldberg (talk) 22:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

There is too much to discuss. I mean, looking at the size of digital distribution in video games now, it would already be too big for Digital distribution, in that it would be of more significance. There's coverage of digital distribution in video games, reception for it, history (which can encompass the whole history, so it would indeed discuss digital distribution on the PC way back when, though in less detail), etc. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 22:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Huh? What you talkin about Willis? SharkD (talk) 22:57, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

With digital distribution in video games, it is a popular format for developing games by independent developers, and it gets enough reception that it can stand alone. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 23:09, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

...but you still don't grasp that it's not any different. I can buy something with cash, check, or credit card but it's all money that I lose and they gain. I can drink from a glass, a cup, or a bottle, but I get the same drink into my body just the same. The difference between getting something digitally and buying it at the store is like a cup versus a glass, which pc vs console is like juice vs soda. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 23:22, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

"Downloadable games" in general are not getting the reception, the discussion, etc. You seem to think that because digital distribution in video games is just a different way to get games means it isn't notable enough to have a separate article, even though the concept of digital distribution has clear coverage anywhere you look, reception, and articles on video game distribution. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 00:19, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it's fair that an article on the digital distribution of games (including microtransactions, etc.) is worthwhile as there's likely some history that can be put to it (particularly with the rise of services like Steam, Gametap, and the various XBL/PSN/Wii stores, and as noted the ways that independent developers subsided), but this article does not separate our the gaming market in the way that "console/portable/arcade" etc. does. It's a means of distribution, not type of hardware platform. --MASEM 23:40, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I could see how digital distribution might represent a sort of a paradigm shift (sort of how the Web 2.0 is currently touted) if the user experience was identical across platforms. However, this is not currently yet the case. Users who install downloaded games still need to worry about operating systems, memory, hardware accelerated graphics cards, etc.—unlike regular web pages, or Flash and Java games where you can run them on just about any system in a typical Web browser. And, the degraded performance (CPU speed, bandwidth, screen size, lack of high-level OS optimizations, etc.) of these browser games have kept them from taking off with "hardcore" gamers. SharkD (talk) 02:36, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

The article on digital distribution does exist, but I think that in today's market an article specifically on VGs will easily flesh-out. Remember the Satellaview? There are probably other precursors, as I'm not a VG history nut. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 03:02, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Vii

Vii - is this notable? Or real? ~ JohnnyMrNinja 07:56, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Well it sure looks real. The Chinese create bootleg game consoles of all sorts.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

It is real. There have always been copycat consoles ever since the first Nintendo. Vii just took the appearance and "name" of the Wii, and had programmers code up similar looking Wii games to capitalize on families that are too poor to buy the "real thing", but want to join in the craze (blame it on marketing to the kids). The coverage in Engadget has been quite extensive. As for notable, it depends on what sources you consider as reliable. The only one I see there that might have a chance is Engadget. Off-hand, personally, I would say Engadget is very notable, but not a qualified Wikipedia-reliable source; many publications talk about it as the blog-site for news on gizmos and gadgets, but none use it as a source for their information.[3] In fact, one even cautions against simply taking its Google presence as a judge of reliability.[4] Can anyone vouch and show that reliable websites (such as the reliable gaming sites and media websites) often use Engadget for news and reports? Engadget's search terms on Google are too pervasive for me to sort out. If there is no summed extensive coverage of the Vii by reliable sources, then it is not Wiki-notable. Jappalang (talk) 09:33, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

A few pieces about it over on Kotaku, including scan of its latest french advertisement flyer. --Oscarthecat (talk) 10:26, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Game requirements in the infobox

The Game requirements in the infobox is unnecessary and should only be in a section. It makes the infoboxes much longer and isn't something for an infobox. The infobox should include only what operating systems the game runs on. That's at least my opinion.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 14:53, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Some articles use a collapsible list with {{collapsible list}} to make it hidden by default. Gary King (talk) 15:10, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

It depends on how the system requirements box is done. Too often is it overly complex, with basically a copy and paste of what is on the back of the box, with minimum and recommended specs relating to multiple systems, graphics card types, processor models, etc. In reality, the entry only need be three lines: minimum processor speed, minimum RAM size, minimum video card size, with an extra line for the rare case of special requirements. Compare this revision with the current version of Quake Wars. The old revision is ridiculously long, whilst the current version deals with it quickly and does not significiantly lengthen the infobox. -- Sabre (talk) 15:41, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

The article Grand Theft Auto IV takes a different approach. It has the requirements listed in a seperate {{VG Requirements}} box, and the section in the infobox merely contains a link to the relevant section ("See Development section for requirements matrix"). Perhaps something like would work better for a lot of other articles too? --.:Alex:. 16:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Why hard drive space shouldn't be listed? --Mika1h (talk) 17:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I like the VG Requirements box, which I used in Call of Duty 4. It's useful when there are too many specs to list. Gary King (talk) 18:50, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the GTA version is the best and should be adapted to other Games infoboxes. Enemy territory is also good and this should be the maximum information in the requirements section. What I aimed for was a guideline for this in the style guideline. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:32, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

The VG requirements box is generally something best used when there is something significant about system requirements: ie, new game engine, anticipated high requirements, etc etc, as it presents far more information than would usually be necessary for covering a subject for the general reader; plus its also rather large and can easily get in the way or not have an appropriate place to be put. For most though, a few lines in the infobox is usually sufficient, provided it doesn't go into the detail that the VG requirements box uses (as seen in the GTAIV article). -- Sabre (talk) 23:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Japanese Titles in articles

What is the rule for including a Japanese title in a video game article? The reason I ask is because I added it as a note in Star Wars: Rogue Squadron and it was immediately reverted with the user citing it as "irrelevant". As the game's only other title as well as it being sourced, I believe it has some place in the article. Opinions? --Torsodog^Talk 05:00, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

It's good to use them if the title originated from Japan, as it can make finding sources and information to work on an article easier. This doesn't seem to be the case though.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 05:22, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I did notice that Japanese titles are usually only in articles of games originating from Japan. This game, however, was not made in Japan. The only reason I thought it was worth adding was because the title was different in Japanese. Also, I found this method in the Super Mario 64 DS article, just to let everyone know. --Torsodog^Talk 05:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure that is a fare comparasion here. For on thing the game in question was not created by a Japanese company and if anything SM64DS's article should mention the Japanese title in the infobox.--76.71.211.108 (talk) 05:33, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

No, the infobox isn't the place for that. The japanese title for SM64DS should be just fine in the lead, as is the norm with most games.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 05:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I actualy meant to type lead. The Japanse title is actually in the notes section though and not so it should be moved. Never mind I see what they were doing there now. I missed the link to the notes section in the lead. I would also like to add one last point regarding the name change. Mario 64ds is different because it was releaed in the US first due to the DS being released earlier. This game however, was released in the US first because it was it was the primary market and only much later was there a Japanse release. Unlike Mario 64 there is no evidence that there was any initial plans to relase it in Japan. --76.71.211.108 (talk) 05:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

As KungFu says, they should be used if the game was developed in Japan, but not otherwise. This should probably be added to the article guidelines, if it's not there already... Thanks! Fin©™ 16:06, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

It is removed. Thanks for the help everyone. --Torsodog^Talk 20:08, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I think this is the right move, but there would be one exception I'd add, though I don't know of a good case for that, and that if a western game significantly impacts the Japanese market, such that if the user were to pursue the references they would understand what name they are looking for in the game. However, this has to be "significant", not just released over there, and as far as I'm aware, no recent titles come to mind for this . --MASEM 20:22, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Another possibile exception I could see would be if there was some sort of controversy related to forien title. That would not apply here though. --76.71.214.236 (talk) 21:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

What about when a Japanese game series has a Western developed game? For example Silent Hill is game series published by Japanese company but Silent Hill: Origins was developed in the UK and it's known in Japan as Silent Hill Zero. --Mika1h (talk) 22:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, tricky question that. I'd say in that case the Japanese name should still be kept, unless its first release date was outside Japan or the primary market was western audiences. I can't think of and example offhand, I imagine it doesn't happen too often! Thanks! Fin©™ 00:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, if it was released in America or Europe, the Japanese title should redirect to the American one (since this is the English Wikipedia). If it was released in Japan only, it should have the English title redirect to the Japanese one, since it's the real title. For example, the article BS Fire Emblem: Akaneia Senki is the Romanized Japanese name, rather than "record of holy wars", E.G. the translated name.--_ZXCVBNM 02:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)--_ZXCVBNM 02:36, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

This isn't about the name of the article itself, it's about including the Japanese name in the lead of the article. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 03:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't even really talking about having it in the lead necessarily. I was asking if it is appropriate to mention it in the article AT ALL, even as a note as the end. --Torsodog^Talk 04:49, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

In that case, yes, of course it's appropriate. Any alternate titles ought to be listed. You can see an example in Fire Emblem (video game); at the very start of the article, it mentions the Japanese name and its translation.--_ZXCVBNM 06:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

That is what I thought, but the argument many are making here is that if the game is not of Japanese origin or had a significant effect in Japan, then it is not worth including, as I did here. --Torsodog^Talk 06:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter where the game was made, the article should include all other names the developers released the game as. Just because it wasn't "popular" doesn't mean it shouldn't be listed for information's sake.--_ZXCVBNM 07:23, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

No, it is ill-advised to simply dump in foreign versions of its names just because it has it. By that note, all games should have the Chinese titles inserted in because they are packaged as such in the Chinese market, which has a larger gaming population than most European countries; Iranian and Arabic titles should also be included then. I would think we do not wish to see a string of 106 different language titles in the video game articles, especially in the ledes. WP:VG/GL#Non-English games is fairly clear on this for foreign games; by common-sense, it is also extendable to English-language games (no foreign names to be mentioned in the text unless they are crucial in some way to the article). Jappalang (talk) 08:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, though Japanese shouldn't get preferential treatment either. A Korean MMO should have the Korean name, a French-developed game the French name, etc. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 12:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

It should be the same for release dates, as stated in the guidelines, but for some reason I see Japanese release dates everywhere even for non-Japanese games (just look at Star Wars: Rogue Squadron in the collapsible list). The guideline should be enforced more actively IMO. This isn't Weeaboopedia. Fargo of Diarmuid (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I thought they were dated according to region release, as per the publisher. Now you're telling me that there are secret regions that nobody knows about?--_ZXCVBNM 19:23, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

No, what he's saying is that non-Japanese games often have the Japanese release in the infobox, which is contrary to guidelines (and also quite common) - I do my best to rectify though =) Thanks! Fin©™ 20:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you saying that Star Wars: Rogue Squadron should not contain the Japanese release date? I'm simply looking at and following the format of other Featured VG articles such as Halo: Combat Evolved, which has many release dates in the infobox. --Torsodog^Talk 20:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Yep, the first release in the game's country of origin and then any English-language dates should be used (EU/NA/PAL/AUS), that's straight from the template. Thanks! Fin©™ 20:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

See WP:VG/DATE for the section in the video games article guidelines concerning release dates. --Silver Edge (talk) 05:49, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Mode 7

Can it be counted as a game engine? I'm asking because F-Zero lists it as a game engine in the infobox and I've always thought that Mode 7 is more like a graphical effect and not a separate engine. --Mika1h (talk) 10:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Nah, Mode 7 is a graphical effect like you say, it's not an engine. Thanks! Fin©™ 16:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I removed it from the infobox. --Mika1h (talk) 20:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Should F-Zero have its second image animated to provide a better illustration of that effect? « ₣M₣ » 18:16, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Insurrection (StarCraft) and Retribution (StarCraft) merge reopened

Can I request some opinions over at Talk:Retribution_(StarCraft)#Merge_of_article regarding the merge of these two articles? I merged them a year ago because they aren't individually notable - only one reliable review between the two of them, absolutely no information available to create proper development or reception sections. User:Inclusionist reverted the merges because of a perceived loss of information and lack of a merge discussion (as far as the latter goes, he was looking on the wrong talk page). I'd like to get some comments from some members here in this discussion, so an effective merge discussion can take place to bring this to a proper conclusion. -- Sabre (talk) 22:40, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

I have found numerous reliable significant sources in the past half hour. travb (talk) 23:03, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but are they reliable sources?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 23:09, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Or even significant coverage? Thus far none posted have been. I resent the accusation that I have been "destroying" work, I spent many hours making sure that these were sufficiently covered as best reliable sources allowed in the series article. -- Sabre (talk) 23:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

To answer User:Kung Fu Man

1. Absolute Games (AG.ru),[5] (full, signifigant article)
2. Computer Gaming World Magazine (CGW),[6] (full, signifigant article)
3. PC Player magazine (Germany)[7] (full, significant article) and
4. mobygames.com all which have wikipedia sites., includes all credits.[8] (full article)
5. The Advocate - NewsBank - Jan 22, 1999
6. Business Wire November 4, 1998
7. Gamespot review (full, signifigant article)
8. Avault review by Pete Hines June 28, 1998 (full, signifigant article)

The article was merged because no sources could be found. Now that I have provided those sources in abundance, the bar has been raised to "significant coverage".

The merge discussion (which tags were only on one page) involved 3 editors, the nominator and two other editors. One wanted to keep, one wanted to merge. After the first comment, the article was merged.travb (talk) 23:41, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

You going to link to some of those "full, significant" articles? Right now we can't see if they are. MobyGames should be thrown out off the bat, it's absolute garbage and cannot be used for jack reliably. If these are all the sources present, I wouldn't begrudge Sabre trying to make a better article out of two unfeatureable articles. I'll look on LexisNexis for any more info, but right now I'm supporting the merge. -Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^(talk) 00:10, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Bloody Tears, etc.

Anyone have an opinion on this? Someone removed them from the chart in List of Castlevania media and I'm not sure they would fit there either. However, they have a long list of different instances where the song is used, leading me to think that they are no different than a hit single. However, due to their relation to the Castlevania series, I feel they'd be better in the series article.--_ZXCVBNM 02:46, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Beyond3D Forums - source?

Hello. Just wondering if the pixel-counting nature of Beyond3D forums can be used as a source. It's already used on PGR3, GTA IV (PC World->PS3Fanboy->Beyond3D) and Ninja Gaiden II (N4G->Beyond3D). It's also been quoted by Joystiq (and as far as I know, was the originating source for the native resolutions of Call of Duty 4 and Halo 3), but its use has been contentious on Metal Gear Solid 4 (perhaps becuase it states the native res of MGS4 is 1024x768). Any thoughts? Thanks! Fin©™ 12:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Best to avoid it, since the identities of the forumers are pretty much a mystery. If reliable sources choose to talk about the findings from there, their reports (reliable sites') can probably be used with attribution ("GameSpot reported that users on a video game forum have found the native resolution to be ..." or something like that). Jappalang (talk) 12:57, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah ok, I found a Videogaming 24/7 article that used the information =) Thanks! Fin©™ 18:33, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Are GameFAQs popularity contests proof of notability?

Someone keeps on removing them from List of characters in Chrono Trigger#Magus. Fargo of Diarmuid (talk) 18:09, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Nope...polls from GameFAQs aren't exactly prime source material.--_ZXCVBNM 19:19, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Why? Fargo of Diarmuid (talk) 21:38, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Exploitable, and basically user reviews. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:46, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Unless there's a good reason, internet polls (including the GameFAQs one) should usually be kept out of articles. -- Nomader ^(Talk) 22:24, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

The GameFAQs yearly character polls are heavily promoted and orchestrated on the site, it's not just a poll script in a box on a random page. Fargo of Diarmuid (talk) 11:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

If people are really trying to use GameFAQs, we should probably list it as among the sites not to source.じんない 03:45, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe they're listed under situational sources; they're satisfactory only for release dates. -- Nomader ^(Talk) 06:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Wait wait wait. So does this mean any "viewer's choice" or "reader's choice" or any other poll using the public's opinion on a subject should be considered uncitable? That seems to lock any means of establishing what a topic's weight with the general public is out entirely, no?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 09:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC) To be more accurate, I mean material such as this.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 10:25, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Ncsoft vs Worlds.com

This suit have been in the news a bit lately, but I can't seem to find an article on Worlds.com, and the suit isn't even discussed in the NCsoft's article.

A little help perhaps? This would seem like a reasonably important topic.--140.184.40.134 (talk) 01:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to log in.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 01:51, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Chances are that the first-parties in any sort of lawsuit aren't going to disclose anything publically about the suit until after it's been settled, which could be quite some time. Usually they avoid commenting on it (and employees at the companies are usually instructed to give a boiler-plate response along the lines of "I cannot comment on that") because any public commentary may hurt their case. If there's news on this suit, though, your best sources will be reliable industry news sources - 1up.com, Joystiq.com, GameSpot.com, etc., may have information as secondary sources. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:10, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

(BTW, I'm listing those sites as potential examples - others in this project can vouch for which ones are considered reliable and which ones aren't.) — KieferSkunk (talk) — 05:11, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Check out some judicial sites (can't think of which ones off the top of my head) as they will list any major changes there as well even if those industry sites don't pick anything up.じんない 05:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

All I was getting at is perhaps an article on Worlds.com and some sort of mention of the suit (which given the patent involved may end up applying to all MMOs) There seems to be a fair-share of discussion about it, like here [9] and it's even been discussed in a Penny Arcade comic. I just thought I'd mention it.--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 06:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)