Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (common names)

Names for ethnic communities living outside the boundaries of their own ethnic state

Currently there's a lot of conflict over this point (see, for example, Talk:Ethnic Mongolians in China, Talk:Chinese Indonesian, Talk:Ethnic Koreans in China, Talk:Chinese Malaysian). We have examples of all of the following patterns, and there's been objections to every single one. (Full disclosure: I'm not an unbiased informant here, I'm personally opposed to standardisation on the American-style model of "Ethnicity, then nationality" and have been going around arguing against it).:

• Ethnicity, then nationality (like Chinese American):. Some people go around trying to standardise all other usages to match this one, even when these are minority usages (e.g. Chinese Malaysian) or not clearly established (Chinese Mongolian, Korean Chinese). There's also conflict over whether usages of this form should be hyphenated or not.
• Nationality, then ethnicity (like British Chinese): Some people complain this is inaccurate and try to standardize as above. Others also complain that this form overemphasizes the foreignness of the ethnic group in question (the ethnicity as a noun, modified by the nationality).
• Non-English names in the language of the ethnic group (like Koryo-saram): Some people complain this usage is not clear to English speakers. It also may lead to conflicts over transcription (e.g. the above spelling, based off of an old romanization, could be updated to use the Revised Romanization spelling "Goryeo-saram"). Also, how members of the ethnic group living outside their country of origin prefer to call themselves may be different from what their co-ethnics back in the mother country call them (in this case, "Goryeo-in").
• Non-English names in the language of the country of residence (like Zainichi Korean): Same problem as above, plus the possible accusation of racism because you're using the "mainstream" name instead of the ethnic group's name in their own ethnic language (Jaeil). Especially when the mainstream name doesn't make any distinction between foreigners and citizens. (E.g. Hoa, which just means "Chinese").
• Ethnic (Group name) in (Country name) (like Ethnic Koreans in China): some people complain that this is too unwieldy, and also it doesn't sufficiently distinguish between Chinese citizens of Korean descent, and Korean citizens living in China. Others assert (usually just based on their own opinion) that "Ethnic Abc" is clearly distinguished from plain old "Abc" (as in Ethnic German). Also this usage does start to look excessively long if you try to think about how to title a page describing the reverse migration of said ethnic group to their country of origin.

Any suggestions? Can other readers here help us to write clearer guidelines regarding this to avoid having to repeat the same debate on every single ethnicity page? cab 04:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to standardize. If the US says "Chinese-American" and the UK says "British Chinese", the articles should be at those locations. john k 23:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree strongly of course. I think the main problem comes when there is no usual term in English for referring to to the given population; then someone makes an arbitrary decision, usually by analogy either to Chinese American or to British Chinese (e.g. Israeli Chinese, Chinese Cayman Islander), and someone else disagrees with it ... my argument is that both of these violate Wikipedia:No original research by introducing new terms/new definitions of existing terms, and that the page title should be something descriptive instead (e.g. "Chinese in the Cayman Islands"), but is that the proper interpretation? Usually the counter-argument is that a "reasonable person" would expect to find the page at the pre-existing location. cab 00:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that you are right. And why would somebody expect Chinese Cayman Islander, anyway, if there's no reliable sources that use the term? john k 12:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, but we actually need to come up with a standardized form because it will be so confusing to people when they see terms like Chinese-American and American-Chinese. Is 'American-Chinese' a Chinese of American heritage (which is very odd) or what is it? People must decide to conform to ONE method either the American way or the British way or whatever way. I don't see anything wrong of conforming to the US method of ethnicity as an adjective and then nationality second. In most cases, it makes the most sense! I don't see why many people have such a huge problem with that when, in the end, it's one of the most sensical systems when it comes to these ethno-national terms. I think it's just because a lot of people have this usual bias for the British method solely for the fact that people do not want to be conforming to American English methods (even if they do come up with practical and logical ways). People just refuse to budge purely because it is the 'American' way. Many people would prefer to follow the so-called 'correct' British system or as long as it is 'not American'. So therefore, people should just finally resolve this issue and settle on the US standard method. 'Ethnicity then your nationality'.. what is so impractical about that??? I mean come on. If you are an American of Chinese descent, then your nationality is American and as an adjective-marker, your heritage which makes you DIFFERENT from other Americans of different ancestries, which makes you distinct from English Americans or African Americans is 'Chinese'. I think people here get carried away with this because they are arguing from the point of view of personal feelings of what an ethnic or national group might see themselves as. We are not here to argue about that. We are here to come up with an objective (NOT subjective) method of naming ethnic groups outside their respective 'ethnic states' regardless of whether a Chinese-American feels that he is only Chinese or whether a German of Turkish descent feels he is as German as the majority ethnic Germans. There is a clear line between personal feelings of ethnicity and nationality (hence influencing some people's reasons here) AND coming up with a logical naming method.

I believe it would be best that all articles included within this talk be named the same way, an I belive that say Chinese British instead of British Chinese is the best name. National Statistics of the UK even uses this term, and official terms should be followed and not ignored or debated, follow the link to see the term Asian British used, instead of the Wikipedia created highly innacurate British Asian [1]. Stevvvv4444 18:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Hirohito#RFC:_Appropriate_Emperor_Name

An RFC on content related to this convention has been opened, comments are welcome. MBisanz ^talk 01:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Personal nicknames

A discussion at Talk:World War I has raised an issue begging for a guideline: controversial nicknames. In the case at hand, a historically-used nickname of an individual (US General Jack Pershing) is now considered offensive by modern sensibilities and has been bowdlerized. Editor might use the historically accurate name, the widely accepted bowdlerized version, just the simplified name, or the legal name. Comments? LeadSongDog (talk) 14:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

As per my comments at the World War I talk page, I don't believe this particular instance needs a MoS guideline. It's a specific instance where a nickname is totally unrelated to the article (i.e., Pershing wasn't given the nickname in question because of the war, etc.), therefore, it is totally irrelevant to the subject and shouldn't be included. It is, of course, directly relevant to John J. Pershing, and probably to 10th Cavalry Regiment (United States) (the unit Pershing commanded that was the cause for the nickname). If we were to have a guideline for nicknames, I think it should be "if it's relevant, include it, if not, can it". Parsecboy (talk) 22:36, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Does "common names" refer to "most common usage?"

In this discussion and elsewhere, an editor argues that it is valid to use "circumcision" as the title of an article which bars the discussion of the circumcision of females, because "circumcision" is the common name for the concept of the circumcision of males (the topic under discussion). I argue that this conflicts with this guideline (among others), because it creates an ambiguity, and incorrectly or at least non-neutrally implies that the circumcision of females does not fall under the general concept of circumcision. I am under the impression that the goal of this guideline was to avoid overly-scientific or technical names for concepts where simpler and more widely-known names exist. Am I wrong and does this guideline also mean that a common, expedient name for one specific concept overrides a rigourous definition of the general concept? Opinions and comments welcome, and thank you. Blackworm (talk) 22:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

TV shows

If a TV show changed its name while still on the air, should we continue using the old title? If so, how long would it be before the new title would be considered more common? This is in regards to WWE Friday Night SmackDown! (though there are other shows I know that could be affected). The show has always had a "!" since it premiered in August 1999, but seems to have dropped it as of tonights episode. There is a current more request and I was wondering what applies here, I should also point out that the show was originally called "WWF SmackDown!" from August 1999-May 2002 (when the WWF was legally forced to stop using those initials, so they changed their name to WWE), then "WWE SmackDown!" from May 2002-September 2006, and "WWE Friday Night SmackDown!" from Setpember 2006 until today. TJ Spyke 09:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Currency name guidelines

Current guidelines at WP:WikiProject Numismatics that call for currency articles to be at their native rather than English names appear to be an attempt to supersede WP:UCN. Please discuss proposed changes at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numismatics/Style#Guidelines change proposal. — AjaxSmack 23:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Conflict

I just now removed the phrase "that does not conflict with..." from the lead sentence and the nutshell. This guideline and the Wikipedia:Naming conflict guideline should be complementary. Instead the "does not conflict with" statement is causing political warriors to deny that article names can ever conflict. Without the statement, this article points to the exceptions section, where I have written an extra statement pointing to the naming conflict guideline.

If this is too bold, please discuss. Drop a line on my talk page. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I think the reason that "does not conflict" was on there was to avoid confusion. Consider Maryland Route 2 for example. "Route 2" is the most common name for it, but we can't use that name, because it conflicts, so instead we use the most common name which doesn't conflict, "Maryland Route 2". I think without making that clear on this page, people will think that that article should be located at Route 2 (Maryland). That, of course, would be in violation of Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Specific topic, which explicitly states that parentheses should be avoided. I've seen people who misunderstood this naming convention use it as an argument to move articles to titles that used parentheses because the non-parenthesized portion in their suggested title was the "most common name". If it's not clearly stated here that we should only use the most common name that doesn't conflict, the problem will only get worse.-Jeff ^(talk) 16:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how the "does not conflict part" disagrees with WP:NCON, as that guideline says that when one name conflicts with the name of something else, to consult WP:DAB. WP:DAB#Specific topic says that if another name exists for the topic in question, that does not conflict with the name of something else, then that name should be used. In other words, "use the most common name that does not conflict". I think I gave this long enough and got no response, so I'll go ahead and add the "does not conflict" parts back in for now, unless someone has a strong argument for removing or rewording them.-Jeff ^(talk) 02:12, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Jordan (model) -> Katie Price -> Kate André

Jordan (Katie Price) has been moved without any discussion to Katie André. Although there has been talk in unreliable sources of her now using her married name - Katie André - this has not been confirmed and she will still be know to most people as Jordan or Katie Price. Please can someone who knows what they are doing have a look and revert if necessary. Thanks -- John (Daytona2 · Talk · Contribs) 22:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

When the two names under consideration are not synonyms, but one reflects early (inaccurate) media reports

There was a discussion at Talk:Jerusalem bulldozer attack on this matter. Early media reports said the attack was with a bulldozer, but later it was revealed to have been a front-end loader, a different kind of machinery. This page was cited as showing that we should go with the commonly-reported name. I wrote:

I respectfully disagree. I believe what WP:NC, WP:NC(CN), WP:NCON, etc. are talking about when they advocate using the "common" name over the "correct" name is, for example, using Marilyn Manson instead of Brian Warner, or Pluto instead of 134340 Pluto (the scientific name). In these cases, the two possible titles are synonyms for the same thing. As they say, "a rose by any other name is just as sweet." In this case, "loader" and "bulldozer" are not synonymous; a loader is what was used and a bulldozer is not, and therefore we should go with the former.

We can always redirect from what people may mistakenly use. What might be the best solution would be to come up with a name that avoids using either "bulldozer" or "loader," but still makes it clear which attack this is; I just haven't thought of one yet. Notice, however, that many of the media accounts do not mention the name of the machinery at all; or they call it "earthmover."[2] Aldrich Hanssen (talk) 12:13, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Let me know if anyone has any insight into this type of case. This particular one is not really all that important in the final analysis, but it's good to have clarification of the guideline in case something similar crops up in the future. Aldrich Hanssen (talk) 12:34, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

• The incident is most widely referred to as "Jerusalem bulldozer attack". The comparably very minor point that it wasn't in fact a bulldozer is cleared up within the article. Everyme (was Dorftrottel) (talk) 16:02, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Naming conventions redirects

Please see Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#Naming conventions redirects -- a proposal that WP:COMMON should redirect to Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Use common names of persons and things --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Chinese cash

An issue related to common name usage in titles is under discussion at Talk:Chinese wén, specifically the use of common names of currencies as currently recommended by the style guidelines as well as WP:UCN. If interested, please discuss a resolution of a titleing issue and give suggestions there. — AjaxSmack 01:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Battles of common names

When does a common expressions of the type "Battle of XYZ" or "Invasion of ABC" take precedence over actual operational names? These are invariably always more common because in some cases, particularly where Second World War is concerned, the official names did not become available to the public until decades after the fact so became "common" by default--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Use correct names

I do not find the policy rationale on common names reasonable: I believe we ought to use the most correct name for the article, the common names being redirects. Common names are often extremely misguided, unjust, POV, problematic, polemic, and often born out of ignorance and confusion by uneducated masses or willful manipulation by political interests. By using common names, we only perpetuate many injustices and stupidities that have found their way into the common language. We should not do that: we must always use the most correct name from a historical and scientific point of view. We are NOT a pop encyclopedia. We are here to educate the people, and part of the education is about using the most correct name for each encyclopedic article, whether it is about a person, a country, a people, a language, a geographical region, a biological species, a planet, an invention, a theory or idea, or anything else. NerdyNSK (talk) 17:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a place to advocate a title change in order to reflect recent scholarship

Whyever not? Lucian Sunday (talk) 15:39, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Not solely to reflect recent scholarship. We should not change name until the recent scholarship changes English usage; for one thing, there is always the chance that even more recent scholarship will change things again. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:57, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Subpages

I think the section Subpages is not the appropriate for this guideline which should concentrate on the common names of articles. The section is covered in the Naming Conventions policy under WP:NC#Do not use an article name that suggests a hierarchy of articles so I propose that we delete the Subpages section from this convention and move and merge the details up into the Wikipedia:Naming Conventions. The current section "WP:NC#Do not use an article name that suggests a hierarchy of articles" will become a subsection of a new section called Subpages and the subsection Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)#Subsidiary articles will join it. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Does common name policy still reflect consensus?

Frequently in discussions on article renames, a significant but vocal proportion of the voters oppose and effectively ignore the current common names policy, generally calling it "slang colloquialism", "not the precise and correct term", "[un]professional" or "misnomer" (see e.g. public house, Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster, Origen, Two mountains, Can't Take My Eyes Off You).

This leads me to wonder, does this policy really reflect consensus? Has consensus moved? Part of the justification of the original policy was to get better coverage by search engines; frequently Wikipedia is the first, or one of the first three hits on Google, so is this of concern any longer? Would a change of policy – and the mass rename that would presumably ensue – change the position of Wikipedia on Google searches?

It seems to me that the opposition is strongest where the common term is somehow "incorrect" (and perhaps disliked by experts in the field) or is primarily or exclusively a colloquialism. Current policy does not appear to give any weight to these concerns.

Effectively this means that pages with a common name vs. "proper" name (whatever that actually means in any particular case) are frozen, as consensus cannot be reached for a new name, even if the current naming scheme is damaging.

Has this policy been discussed recently and the current consensus gauged? If not, is it time?

--Rogerb67 (talk) 22:41, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Common names have been a policy/guidline factor in Wikipedia development since the Revision as of 01:15, 6 May 2002 as such it is a very old policy. We have modified this statement this year by adding a provision to the Naming Conventions policy in the section Use the most easily recognized name "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." which I think addresses your concerns. If you do not think that it does then, I suggest that we discuss in on the Naming Conventions talk page rather than this guideline. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 19:01, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I'm not sure it does address all my concerns. Do you have any objection to moving or copying this section there in its entirety, including your response? (alternatively please go ahead and do it yourself.) --Rogerb67 (talk) 20:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

no objections. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree there is a problem with the policy. Essentially it chooses the names that the Great Unwashed would choose, rather than those chosen by people who know what they're talking about. It's a cultural problem across WP generally, that elevates opinion above expertise, evidence and reason. I've seen many comments on talk pages saying, "If most people think that Foo is called X, then Foo is called X." This is Argumentum ad populum.

Search is not the problem it was in 2002. Google tends to rank WP pages highly whether the search term is the article name or not.

So what do we do about this? Many decades ago, the BBC's Pronunciation Unit faced a similar problem in standardising the pronunciation across the Corporation's output of (for example) local place names. They settled on adopting the pronunciation that 'educated local' people would use. Maybe our policy should encapsulate an 'educated local' kind of approach. It would adopt neither the choice of the Great Unwashed nor that of the the narrowly-focussed ivory-tower boffin, but rather that of a well-educated, well-informed and intellectually-rigorous non-specialist.--Harumphy (talk) 08:49, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The section in the NC policy "Use the most easily recognized name" covers this with "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.". --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 11:01, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, the elitism expressed in some of the posts in this section is disappointing. The argument expressed is NOT, "If most people think that Foo is called X, then Foo is called X." The argument IS a tautology: "If most people refer to Foo as X, then most people refer to Foo as X, and so the name of the article should be X". For example, the term used by medical experts for median neuropathy at the wrist is median neuropathy at the wrist, but most people use the term carpal tunnel syndrome and, so, that's the name of the Wikipedia article. You're right, the common name convention elevates opinion above expertise, but that's the point of using the name that most people will recognize. Yes, it chooses the names that the Great Unwashed would use. So what? Is there really a problem that the article is at carpal tunnel syndrome and not at median neuropathy at the wrist? What do we do about this? Why do anything about this? I don't see what the problem is. And while there are a few exceptions here or there with people insisting on using the "correct" terminology instead of the terminology most commonly used to refer to the subject of the article in question, I think it's safe to say that the common name policy still reflects consensus. Thankfully. --Serge (talk) 16:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

There is no problem with (e.g.) carpal tunnel syndrome, because it is (a) neither ambiguous nor inaccurate and (b) what a well-educated non-specialist would call it. A problem is occurring because there have been several recent examples of proposed moves to names that are ambiguous and/or inaccurate, despite the policy. So your example is a straw man argument. --Harumphy (talk) 12:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by "despite the policy."? Which part of the policy? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 12:15, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(precision). --Harumphy (talk) 15:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I, for one, am not sure what you're talking about. Can you give some examples of proposed moves to names that you feel are ambiguous and/or inaccurate, per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(precision) or any other policy? For example, there is nothing ambiguous or inaccurate about the well-known name Pub, yet that article is at the relatively obscure Public house. --Serge (talk) 17:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

See my comments at Talk:Public house#Continued discussions "Pub"/"Public house" is not as clear cut as you imply. There are other names such as "Lech Wałęsa" and Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster which are better examples. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:00, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

In view of User:Philip Baird Shearer's utterly disgraceful action in moving Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster, despite there being even less of a consensus for the move than the last time it was discussed, it seems there is little point in taking part in these discussions because a self-perpetuating cabal of unaccountable admins will do whatever the fuck they please and sod the rest of us. This comment is my final contribtuion to WP. Thank you and goodnight. --Harumphy (talk) 21:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Common name convention being ignored

In case anyone cares, the common name convention is being openly ignored at Talk:Public_house#Requested_move, where it looks like the proposed move of the practically unheard of Public House to the ubiquitous Pub (in order to conform to WP:UCN) is likely to fail. --Serge (talk) 16:45, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

What if it does conflict?

The current wording:

"Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things."

does not reflect actual practice; if it did, almost no article title would use a parenthetic disambiguator, since in the real world almost nothing is referred to in such a manner. I think what it means is:

"Use the most common name of a person or thing provided that does not conflict with the names of other people or things."

which of course says nothing about what to do when that is not the case. I don't think it is expected that you will draw up a list of names, ordered by commonness, and work down the list till you get to an unambiguous one; I think below some minimum level of commonness, you're expected to bail out and use the common name plus a parenthetic disambiguation. jnestorius^(talk) 11:40, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Good point, though (unfortunately in my view) some articles are disambiguated by using a name that is less common (like royalty), and some classes of articles are disambiguated by something other than parenthetic disambiguation (notably cities using the so-called comma convention). In still other articles the most common name cannot be decided, and a compromise is used that is clearly not the most common name (e.g., fixed-wing aircraft). I think there would be a lot fewer issues associated with naming if first priority was always given to the most common name of each article subject, and then disambiguating it with parenthesis the content of which depends on what the conflicting topics are. For example, if one topic is the only automobile among all uses of that name, then (automobile) is probably the most appropriate disambiguator. That, in a nutshell, is probably all we need for naming conventions, instead of the plethora of independent and contradictory conventions for most every conceivable class of names. --Serge (talk) 14:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Domestic dog

There is a proposal at Talk:Dog to move that article to Domestic dog (and at Talk:Cat to move it todomestic cat), by a user who seems to be under the impression that WP:NC (precision) is the whole of our naming convention; comments are welcome.

If these suggestions draw wide support, we may need to consider what the balance between the guidelines should be. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to change nutshell wording

The current nutshell wording of this convention is:

Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.

I think the first clause, "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication", is at the root of most naming conflicts. For a category of names in which "the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things" is generally difficult if not impossible to determine (names of royalty is a good example), other conventions are useful in providing naming guidance. But those cases are not exceptions to this convention, since "the most common name of a person or thing" is not determined and so cannot be used. Those are cases where this guideline is insufficient, and more guidance is required. But in those cases where the most common name is blatantly obvious, it should be used as the title of the article, period. As such, I propose changing the current nutshell wording to the following:

Whenever the most common name of a person or thing is known, and it does not conflict with the names of other notable people or things, use it as the name of the article. When the most common name cannot be determined, or it conflicts with other notable uses of that name, other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions should provide appropriate guidance.

Comments? --Born2cycle (talk) 15:20, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

This is not a convention but a guideline to a convention. The conventions are in the Naming Conventions policy page.

Whenever the most common name of a person or thing is known, and it does not conflict with the names of other notable people or things, use it as the name of the article would mean that the article William I of England would be move to William the Conqueror. It would negate many other conventions and guidelines to the conventions. If that is to be contemplated it should be done on the policy page and very widely advertised. --PBS (talk) 18:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this page is a convention page, but not a policy page like WP:NC. But I'll take the proposal up there. And yes, I do think it's a mistake to have William the Conqueror at William I of England, though the problem of defaulting to something other than the most common name is not as evident in some classes of names (like names of royalty) as it is in others, but it does establish precedent that often leads to conflict. Thanks. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions#Proposal to reduce naming conflicts - avoid preemptive disambiguation --PBS (talk) 23:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Cases in which there is no common name

Hi. There's an ongoing discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television) about what to do with episode articles for pilot episodes which don't have an individual title. These episodes are usually just called "the pilot episode", and our articles on them have traditionally been at Pilot (Lost), Pilot (Smallville), Pilot (The X-Files), and so on. Since these pilots are sometimes referred to by the name of the series, there was a proposal to change this naming pattern to Lost (pilot) or Lost (pilot episode), Smallville (pilot) or Smallville (pilot episode), and so forth. The resulting discussion has been mostly going in circles, and WP:UCN has been referenced several times. I'm of the opinion that these pilot episodes are unnamed, and therefore we can use an arbitrary naming convention; other editors feel that the convention Pilot (series name) implies that the episode is in fact named "Pilot".

In the interest of clearing up that discussion, I've got a few questions for UCN experts:

1. What criteria can be used to indicate that something does not have a common name? Is it sufficient to note that different reliable sources use different titles, on an apparently ad hoc basis, or do you need an actual source saying "this is unnamed"?
2. If something is in fact untitled, but there is a common usage for what it's called, is it appropriate to treat that common usage as if it were the title?
3. When a category of untitled items exist, is it OK for us to apply an arbitrary naming standard?

I don't want to spread the discussion about TV pilots here, so any further discussion here should be kept general. However, anyone who's interested is welcome to join the conversation at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (television), especially if you think you can break the current deadlock. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Misinterpretation of verifiable reliable sources statement

I've noticed that there are many different interpretation of this relatively new statement in the guideline, and it's causing problems:

Determine the common name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.

Some people seem to think that this means only academic sources should be consulted when determining the most common name that refers to a given topic. It has even been argued that because of this statement, the google test cannot be used, because the google results are not limited to "verifiable reliable sources". At the talk page of WP:NC (flora) it is being argued that the name of Joshua Tree National Park cannot be used as evidence that Joshua tree is commonly used to refer to the namesake plant because the park name is not a "verifiable reliable source". Is that what is intended here? That interpretation, which I can understand when that sentence is taken out of context, flies in the face of the very next sentence which states: "What word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine?"

Anyone else agree this should be fixed/clarified? Any suggestions on how? Thanks. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

My understanding of that example is as follows. The plant species Yucca brevifolia has several common (vernacular) names, including "Joshua tree". The name of the national park is evidence that "Joshua tree" is a common name for this species, but that point is not in dispute. The point in dispute is the most common name of this species. The name of the national park is not evidence that "Joshua tree" is the most common name. I am persuaded that the most common name of this species is its scientific name, Yucca brevifolia. --Una Smith (talk) 23:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

You don't have to take that sentence out of context to believe that the name of a park is not a reliable source for the most common name of a plant; all you have to do is go read Wikipedia:Reliable sources. By the same token, you don't have to take that sentence out of context to believe that the Google test is not a reliable source for anything at all; all you have to do is go read Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Seriously, if this issue boils down to what is a reliable source and what isn't, then you should be over at Wikipedia:Reliable sources, not here.

As I've said elsewhere, "What word would the average user of Wikipedia put into the search engine?" is unknowable and unmeasurable. The best we can hope for is a good approximation metric. There are many possible metrics—the Google test is one of them—and we could argue until the cows come home over what metric is most appropriate. It is appropriate that this policy give guidance on which metric we should use; hence "Determine the common name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject."

Hesperian 10:10, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree. This is especially true when the search term is an ambiguous term. That is a common problem with common names; see for example the majority of pages in Category:Plant common names. --Una Smith (talk) 18:16, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Commonly used names

From the history of the article:

diff 11:34, 1 January 2009 Hesperian (Talk | contribs | block) (9,837 bytes) (there is no "some other name"—it's a dichotomy.)

It is not a dichotomy. (to keep it simple) Let us suppose that the scientific literature describes an entity which has one scientific name and one common name. But in the set of all reliable sources (which is greater than the set of scientific literature) a third name proves to be the most commonly used name, then the third name should be used.

The whole point of the paragraph is to distinguish between common name (as used in scientific literature) and commonly used name as used in the Wikipedia naming conventions, so that there is no confusion in peoples minds over the difference between common name as used in the scientific literature and common name as used in the Wikipedia naming conventions.

Your change implies that they are one and the same thing --which they may often be -- but it may not be universally true in the set of all possible named entities. --PBS (talk) 11:52, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The third name is either a scientific name or a common name. It's a dichotomy. Hesperian 12:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be suffering under the misapprehension that a name is not a common name unless a scientist declares it so. This is not the case. A common name, as this term is applied to plants and animals, is simply any name for a plant or animal that is not a scientific name i.e. a name validly published under the nomenclatural laws governing the taxon. Hesperian 12:15, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I see now that this same misapprehension eunderlies your insistence on including "in the scientific literature". Your understanding of what a common name is is fundamentally flawed. Hesperian 12:19, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so, but we may be talking at cross purposes. Scientific may attach the label "common name" to something meaning a name used by those outside the scientific community (the patricians and the plebs). But that is a different meaning from the use of common in the Wikipedia naming conventions which is using the term to mean frequent used.

If you do not think that there is a difference between "common name" as used in scientific literature and "common name" as used in this guideline, then you should be pressing for the deletion of the paragraph as it cannot be providing any additional information. --PBS (talk) 12:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Grrr. I almost feel you are wilfully misunderstanding me now. Try this: "When dealing with plants and animals, any name that is not a scientific name is called a common name. It is important not to conflate this usage of the term common name with the most commonly used name in English, as used in reliable sources; this guideless deals with the latter. The most commonly used name may be the scientific name or a common name." Hesperian 12:45, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I've altered the wording slightly.[3] If you can live with it please say so, and we can then move on. --PBS (talk) 15:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Hesperian: by "common name", PBS is conflating commonly used name and vernacular name. I rewrote the paragraph, making it much shorter. There is no such thing as a scientific "common name"; see common name. --Una Smith (talk) 17:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I expect PBS's reference to scientific "common name" is a reference to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna), which says to use a certain authority's checklist of "approved" common names for articles about birds. That is an exception to general practice in taxonomy and furthermore it is a prescriptive convention, rather than a descriptive one, which has a number of ramifications. Most notable is the number of exceptions to the rule to use the checklist. See the last few sections on the talk page. --Una Smith (talk) 18:58, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not a dichotomy

It's not a dichotomy. To use an example from fauna, consider whale. Whale is commonly used to refer to certain types of marine mammals, but it's not a scientific "common name" for any taxa. Whale is not a scientific "common name" for the order Cetacea because dolphins and porpoises are also members of Cetacea, but in the common usage of the term "whale", dolphins and porpoises are not included.

The example of whale illustrates a broader issue that affects the naming of plants and animals. The key factor to consider when naming any article in Wikipedia is of course the topic of that article. In the case of whale, that topic is "marine mammals that are not dolphins or porpoises". There is no scientific term (neo-Latin or "common name") that is used to refer to that topic, because that topic does not correspond to any taxa. Yet it is a valid and notable animal topic. If we change the article to be about the entire order (in which case the article name would be Cetacea), we are changing the topic of the article.

In plants a similar situation occurs with Monterey cypress. Although the name most commonly used to refer to the native tree is Monterey cypress, that species is also cultivated and not so commonly referred to as Monterey cypress in that form. So here again, the well-known native tree is a notable topic in and of itself, and if we make the topic of the article about the species rather than just the native tree, we are changing the topic.

So it's not simply about choosing names, it's about choosing topics, and the issue of whether animal and plant article topics must correspond to scientific taxa. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

It is a dichotomy, and "scientific common name" is a neologism. Whale is the common name for a group of animals that has no scientific name, because it is not a taxon. Cetacea is the scientific name for a different group of animals, for which Whale is not a common name (but Cetacean arguably is). Hesperian 03:42, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Of course it's a dichotomy, but I think this is what PBS & Co. are aiming for:

1. Scientific names: weird names that only make sense to specialist scientists
2. Common names: vernacular names made up by scientists; often not common at all
3. Commonly used names: the result of a googletest and the preferred name for a Wikipedia article title

Outside Wikipedia, the third form is equal to the second form, but it looks to me like PBS and his friends are now busy editing pages like this one, often unilaterally and under the false pretense of clarification, to popularize it within this community and give it more weight than the second form. I suspect that, to further their anti-science agenda, they are attempting to subtly reformulate certain guidelines so that it will become easier to beat us over the head with them at some later point. If you consider what they wanted to achieve at WP:NC (flora), this looks like a definite conflict of interest within Wikipedia. --Jwinius (talk) 00:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted to the last version by First Light. This is because if you read the wording carefully User:Born2cycle the way that common name is defined will not necessarily mean the common name of a taxa. I would prefer more explicit language (of the type you put in) but, the wording as of the edit by First Light will do if it means we have a consensus. user: Una Smith the addition of "one of several corresponding vernacular names." is not acceptable because as Born2cycle there is not always a one to one mapping.

user: Una Smith I suggest that we keep the changes to a minimum and only address the current paragraph. Before we start changing the meaning of "common name" throughout in this guideline there should be far more participation as it affects all areas of Wikipedia and many editors have used the expression for years and are comfortable with the expression. If you really want to start changing parts of this guideline that have been stable for a long time, then please advertise it at village pump and on the wikipedia talk:naming conventions --PBS (talk) 19:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

It is very clear from the discussion here and elsewhere that there is a fundamental confusion over what Wikipedia usages of "common name" refer to: "commonly used name" and "vernacular name". That needs to be fixed. --Una Smith (talk) 20:23, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

When you made the reversal of my last revert, you did no address the my concern over "one of several corresponding vernacular names." --PBS (talk) 21:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

No it is not very clear that other than in a small area of the wikipedia there is any confusion. The paragraph that has recently been added and we have been discussing is to clarify that area where there is some confusion. As I said if you want to make substantive changes to this guideline then first advertise your intention at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and on the wikipedia talk:naming conventions so that we can build a wide participation in building consensus for the changes. It would also be a good idea to post an WP:RFC ({{RFCpolicy}} to increase participation. --PBS (talk) 21:33, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

PBS, you edited the page without first seeking consensus, then you reverted my edit for doing likewise. That's hypocrisy. You say you have a "concern". What exactly is your concern? --Una Smith (talk) 05:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:IDHT and Monterey Cypress

• 19:15, 27 December 2008: Born2cycle claims that Monterey Cypress is obviously the most common name for the species, without proferring any evidence.[4]
• 03:58, 28 December 2008: Hesperian refutes claim, provides evidence against, invites Born2cycle to provide evidence in support of claim.[5]
• Born2cycle does not bother to respond.
• 06:38, 28 December 2008: Born2cycle again claims that Monterey Cypress is obviously the most common name for the species, without proferring any evidence.[6]
• 10:25, 28 December 2008: Hesperian again demands evidence.[7]
• Again, Born2cycle again does not bother to respond.
• 00:09, 30 December 2008: Born2cycle claims that Monterey Cypress is the most common name for specimens in their natural habitat, without proferring any evidence.[8]
• 16:43, 1 January 2009: Born2cycle claims that Monterey Cypress is the most common name for specimens in their natural habitat, without proferring any evidence.[9]

This is the most straightforward case of WP:IDHT that I've come across in my four years here. Born2cycle, give us evidence or desist making this baseless assertion. Hesperian 03:31, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to believe you might be serious, but I will assume good faith.

Here is a list of reliable sources from a variety of areas.

• http://www.nearctica.com/trees/conifer/cupress/Cmacro.htm (botanically oriented website)
• http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/390749/Monterey-cypress (encylopedia)
• http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Monterey+cypress (dictionary)
• http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/e/a/1997/08/31/TRAVEL1105.dtl&type=printable (newspaper)
• http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/tree/cupmac/all.html (U.S. government)

This is just smattering of what is available out there. I acknowledge that there are many references to the scientific name as shown by a simple google test, but if you examine the results very closely at all you will find no evidence of the native trees being so referenced, and plenty of evidence (like above) that Monterey cypress is most commonly used to refer to them. Again, this seems so blatantly obvious to me I can't believe you're serious about challenging me on this point, much less accusing me of violating WP:IDHT. You might take a look in a mirror.

Note this quote in the last reference: "The currently accepted scientific name of Monterey cypress is Cupressus macrocarpa". The "currently accepted" language implies this is not necessarily a firm thing, but there is no question about "Monterey cypress" being the name. In other words, it doesn't say "The current most common name of Cupressus macrocarpa is Monterey Cypress". Implying that there might be some other common name for it other than Monterey Cypress, or it might change, would be ludicrous. --Born2cycle (talk) 05:05, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, this is beginning to sound like an "evolution/anti-evolution" battle with the wikilawyering about the proof that Montery Cypress is its common name being offered up in WP:OR like that statement.

• nearctica.com doesn't say anywhere where it gets its common names or how it vets them. Dr. Poole is an entomologist, by the way, and insects do have vetted common names and an organization that goes along with that, unlike plants.

  Encyclopedias and dictionaries are not reliable sources for common names of plants, they don't indicate that it is the most common name or the only common name.

  The name used the most in the SFGate article is "cypress," not Monterey Cypress.

  The US government makes up common names when there aren't any. See their EIS's for example.

Again, and again, where is something, a reliable verifiable reference on common names of plants in English that discusses and gives the world-wide accept most commonly accepted common name? User:PBS is saying there are sources, so maybe he'll provide them.

They also don't agree with each other, besides SFGate using cypress more than Monterey Cypress, as some of your sources use Monterey Cypress with a capital "c" and others use Monterey cypress with a lower case "c." Capitalization of common names is another argument we've had about plant names, so which of your sources is it, the ones with capital or lower case? Monterey cypress or just cypress more common? When I lived in Monterey we just called them cypresses.

Assuming good faith would have required you to leave out this statement, "It's hard to believe you might be serious, but I will assume good faith." Pointing out that you doubt someone's good faith is not assuming good faith. Treating their post as a post to be answered directly is good faith. --KP Botany (talk) 05:43, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Thankyou for making the effort.

If I understand your position correctly, you are asserting that these five websites are examples of reliable sources where the term "Monterey cypress" refers not to the species Cupressus macrocarpa, but rather to the set of all specimens of Cupressus macrocarpa growing in their natural habitat. Yet three of these five pages explicitly identify "Monterey cypress" with Cupressus macrocarpa, and it is certainly not problematic reading the other two as if "Monterey cypress" refers to the species. So where is the evidence that "Monterey cypress" means what you say it means in these contexts? I find it hard enough accepting that these pages constitute evidence for your thesis; that it should be obviously so simply beggars belief.

Another issue, which is probably more important, is where this little piece of navel gazing takes us, and whether it is at all relevant to this page. You seems to have moved away from discussing the most common name for a topic that merits inclusion; instead you are trying to find a notable topic for a name you like.

I hasten to add that it is possible for a set of trees to have distinct notability from the species of which it is comprised. If a native stand is protected under heritage legislation, and people have written about its heritage importance and the means of preserving it, then the stand itself is notable. If a native stand forms a unique ecosystem or vegetation complex, and people have written about the structure and significance of that complex, then that complex itself is notable; e.g. we have both Eucalyptus diversicolor and Karri forest. But "Monterey cypress" would not be an appropriate title in such cases; I cannot imagine how you might scope an article so that it would merit the title Monterey cypress yet not be a POV fork of Cupressus macrocarpa.

Hesperian 11:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the article? The two native groves are protected. Monterey cypress is the most appropriate title for an article about the trees in that grove because it is the most common term used to refer to them. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Um, I think you didn't read to the end of Hesperian's post. An article about that grove of trees would surely be appropriate, "But "Monterey cypress" would not be an appropriate title in such cases". The title of such an article would be the name of the stand of trees. And I hope someone does write such an article about the Point Lobos cypress grove, since it's notable and spectacularly beautiful, in my originally researched opinion. First Light (talk) 17:20, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Or an article about both groves called Monterey cypress groves, maybe. Yes, the groves are spectacularly well known internationally. Titling the article "Monterey cypress" when it's about the groves would be inappropriate. Both groves are in preserves, but the preserve articles don't seem to say much about the cypresses. Actually the Cupressus macrocarpa article is rather short of information on the groves. This is what this battle has been about, an article about the groves? If the article is about the groves, just as if an article is about a forest, it is titled by what it is about. Wow, the article on this tree needs improved. What a waste of time, a battle about a misunderstanding, being insulted left and right for knowing anything about plants, and an article could have been improved during all this time. Now for the big battle, "Monterey Cypress" or "Monterey cypress." Born2cycle, go ahead and start the article on the groves, that's a great idea for a Wikipedia article, and I'll help with it. I'll also see if I can get some good pictures from above. --KP Botany (talk) 22:01, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm glad we agree there should be an article about the native trees in the groves titled Monterey cypress. BTW, this is not what the whole debate was about, just an example. Do you also agree that such an article would fall under WP:NC (flora)? If so, do you think the current version covers how to name such an article? The answer to that question is closer to what this debate is all about, at least for me. --Born2cycle (talk) 05:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

So we all agree that a community of plants may have notability distinct from the species that comprises it, and thus merit a distinct article. I think we all agree that an article on a community of plants should use the most common name for that community. I think we all agree that the most common name for such a community may use a vernacular name rather than a scientific name. e.g. Eucalyptus diversicolor but Karri forest. (by the way, it was me who entitled the latter article)

The one remaining point of disagreement is hiding in Born2cycle's rather subtle last sentence "Monterey cypress is the most appropriate title for an article about the trees in that grove because it is the most common term used to refer to them."—note that the topic has changed from "that grove" to "the trees in that grove". If this means what I think it means, then this is where we come to a parting of the ways:

1. We all agree that the species is notable, and we all agree that the title of an article on the species should be a name used to refer to the species.
2. We all agree that the grove is notable, and I must insist that the title of an article on the grove should be a name used to refer to the grove. Note: to "the grove" not to "the trees in that grove".
3. I assert that "the trees in that grove", as a topic distinct from both the species and the grove, is a non-notable topic about which nobody has written and nor should we, so there is no point discussing a suitable title for that topic.

Ultimately, what I won't accept is a muddle-headed conflating of distinct topics, leading to the misguided argument that "the grove is notable; people use the common name to name the grove; therefore the common name is used for the plants comprising the grove; therefore the comon name is used to refer to the species; therefore the common name should be the title of the species article". This is the Joshua Tree National Park fallacy all over again. Hesperian 04:48, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The grove would not be notable if not for the distinctive trees that comprise it. It's definitely about the trees, man. I see what you're saying, and I do believe that there are certain groves that are notable in and of themselves. The Mariposa Grove in Yosemite comes to mind. But with respect to the Monterey cypress, it's all about the individual trees, not the groves. It's no mistake that the most famous are known individually - the Lone cypress, the ghost tree and the witch tree (some of these may have perished) --Born2cycle (talk) 05:09, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, the two groves in question are so not notable that, so far as I know, they're not even named. To believe that the article should be about the groves, or each grove, is to not understand the topic (which is the trees most commonly referred to as Monterey cypress). --Born2cycle (talk) 05:13, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Tell you what. You go ahead and write an article about the trees, as distinct from the species, and entitle is monterey cypress. I'll nominate it for deletion as a POV fork of the species article. I guarantee you it will be deleted. Hesperian 02:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Title of this article

I am thinking the article title needs to be changed, to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (commonly used name). --Una Smith (talk) 17:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (most commonly used names) ? --Born2cycle (talk) 18:01, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (most commonly used name)? --Una Smith (talk) 18:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The name should not be changed without a lot of participation and a WP:RM. --PBS (talk) 19:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Okay, let's start a survey. --Una Smith (talk) 20:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Should we change the title of this article? To what?

• Yes, to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (most commonly used name). --Una Smith (talk) 20:25, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

You should not start a debate with a survey see Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion. First you need to advertise this suggested change at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and at wikipedia talk:naming conventions. If no clear consensus emerges then put in a WP:RM. It would also be a good idea to post an WP:RFC ({{RFCpolicy}} to increase participation. --PBS (talk) 21:18, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

PBS is correct here, changing the name of policy pages requires much larger participation than a survey on the policy talk page. --KP Botany (talk) 02:18, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

So? This is a good place to start. --Una Smith (talk) 05:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Page protection -- reach consensus, don't edit war

I asked for this page to be protected so that it would stop being changed/reverted/changed/reverted/reverted/changed. If you're new to Wikipedia and page protection, it's not that big of a deal. As a group, come up with changes, then request the protecting admin or another uninvolved administrator to implement the changes or allow the changes for you. It was protected at a version created by one of the edit warriors, but this is not to advocate that particular version. I requested that it be reverted to when the edit warring on this page appeared to have started. Older changes by some participants in this particular battle appear to have been more stable than this latest round. Which simply means they were not immediately reverted.

It's likely throughout Wikipedia that substantive changes to policy and guideline pages will be reverted if they are not discussed on the talk page first. That's really straight-forward. Policy and guidelines pages are used daily by editors to learn what the community consensus is. And that is not usually something that changes 3-4 times a day. This is why most of these changes have been reverted.

If you don't like Wikipedia naming policies, attempt, politely, to gain consensus for change. When you have reached this consensus, the policies and guideline pages can be edited to reflect this consensus.

I request you not carry this edit war to additional policy and guideline pages.

--KP Botany (talk) 06:56, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

The page, which is now protected currently stands as it did at 03:23, 19 December 2008. --PBS (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Hesperian-2009-Jan-01-12:46

I think that the new paragraph on plants and animal is useful and informative. As there are no substantive changes to general guidance of the page up until the version by Hesperian --Hesperian-2009-Jan-01-12:46 (diffs), as a new base, I propose that we move forward from the currently protected version to Hesperian-2009-Jan-01-12:46. If that is acceptable to everyone, then we can discuss changes to that wording before implementing any further changes. Does anyone object to moving to Hesperian-2009-Jan-01-12:46? --PBS (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Of course, the primary edit between the two concerning plant articles being one you made[10] that essentially is what you've been hammering and battering at the guidelines and editors over at plants to get passed, namely deletion of this:

"Plants, following disputes over the proper "common" names to use, are now automatically placed at their botanic name: Verbascum thapsus (Not Great Mullein), Ailanthus altissima (not Tree-of-heaven). See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (flora)"

I'll assume your statement above that there are "no substantive changes" was simple a careless reading on your part, or maybe you got the wrong diffs. Please feel free to retract or correct as necessary.

--KP Botany (talk) 12:26, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I do not see that deletion as a substantive change to this guideline. It is something that should be in the specific guideline and has no place in this general guideline on common names. The sentence "See the guidelines wikipedia:naming conventions (fauna) and wikipedia:naming conventions (flora) for further clarification." in the new paragraph covers this issue. --PBS (talk) 12:37, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

In other words, any change you agree with is insubstantive?  :) Actually, where ever it should be, it is substantive, because it plays a large part in an edit war you've been engaged in for over the past month.

And that is the definition of substantive in this issue: if you, User:Philip Baird Shearer, are willing to edit war over it, it's substantive. --KP Botany (talk) 12:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you think that paragraph should be in this guideline? If so why? --PBS (talk) 12:46, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we've gone the discussion route already and you opted to edit war and wikilawyer instead. I pass. --KP Botany (talk) 12:49, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

It is not clear to me what you are passing on. Are you passing on discussing the issue and would object to implementing Hesperian-2009-Jan-01-12:46 (in which case it makes it very difficult to include your opinions in building a consensus), or if you are disinterested in whether Hesperian-2009-Jan-01-12:46 is implemented. --PBS (talk) 13:04, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I've posted this on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (flora) for interested editors there. --KP Botany (talk) 12:49, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

PBS, of course that's a substantive change, and one that should be discussed and consensus reached, before asking an admin to edit the page. Hesperian also needs to have time to respond. I.E., patience.... First Light (talk) 16:28, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Unless someone is willing to posit that "this guideline is more important than that guideline", I'm willing to stipulate for my part that the paragraph need not remain. I've already learned how little some editors think is necessary for a guideline to have "failed for lack of consensus", and we can all play that game with any guideline. Or not.--Curtis Clark (talk) 16:31, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, yes, this seems to be the case, that the real advocacy is for not following the guidelines, since those advocating for changing the guideline are ignoring the part that says plants have a different guideline. That's something worth thinking about. I'll consider it in depth after I review the sources User:PBS demands we use to find the most commonly used name for article titles. --KP Botany (talk) 03:53, 3 January 2009 (UTC)a

• Plants, following disputes over the proper "common" names to use, are now automatically placed at their botanic name... this is a very poor choice of words(spelling errors aside) for any guideline/policy/convention wording should be always be presented in a Neutral tone, I suggest it says;

Following extensive discussions about whether the use of vernacular names for plants are sufficiently unique to identify a species of plant the consensus is that articles about plants be placed at their botanical name as in this example Verbascum thapsus rather than the vernacular Great Mullein... Gnangarra 16:55, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

• For those who are unaware, the "disputes over the proper common names to use" bit refers not to the current dispute but to a previous dispute, a few years ago. Hesperian 03:17, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

PBS, your edit summary says "don't need more here. this is a detail should be in the relevant guideline, not this general one particullarly is it is disputed."[11] I think that wording adopted herein represents a broader consensus of the Wikipedia community and that may be helpful, "particullarly is it is disputed". I thought one of the principles of WP:DR was to seek involvement of the broader community. What am I missing? Walter Siegmund (talk) 17:27, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what you have written, but perhaps you have not read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (flora) and the discussion on the guideline's talk page. --PBS (talk) 23:27, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

A different principle

Part 1: Use the English language when it is unambiguous.
Part 2: Use the term non-specialists use when it is unambiguous
Reason: We are a general, not a scientific, encyclopedia.
(it goes without saying we would always add the accepting scientific name in parentheses) if not used as the main element. DGG (talk) 03:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately in the arena of plant common names this is seriously difficult. Plants common names are awash with ambituity, and people working in plants, horticulturists and botanist have found, by playing this same battle out over the last few hundred years, that common names as a means of referring to plants even in non-specialized sources are difficult. This is what this battle keeps being about over and over again. The plant editors know this because they work with plants. I am, in fact, trained in researching plant common names in English, in a few Asian languages, and in South American Indian languages. The non-specialists often use the same term the specialists use, but when they don't, they're no means of finding which term is used by them, because it is almost always ambiguous.

We're not trying to be scientific per se. We're trying to include as many plant species as possible and to focus on putting information in those articles. I could spend days researching a common name (as I have done), without any resolution as to the one to be used for the article title. Wikipedia plant editors do this all the time and have had fruitless battles about the results. We can either write articles about plants or research the common names and not write any articles about plants.

And our plant articles are often rather good and useful sources of information.

So, please, don't ask Wikipedia plant editors to do what far more experienced editors working in plants have failed to do for hundreds of years.

This is wasting so much energy.

--KP Botany (talk) 03:50, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

One can place an article under almost any name one wishes and providing it meet the general naming conventions, it is unlikely that it will be subject to a AFD over the name. If you know about the naming conventions then good faith would encourage you to follow the naming conventions and place it under the common name, but if you put a plant article under the scientific name I do not think anyone would consider that to be unreasonable. If someone else wishes to move the article so that the name complies with the naming policy all well and good (anyone who is interested can join in a debate over the name and reach a consensus on whether the article should be moved or not). For example you could write dozens of news articles and place them under their scientific names. Someone else can at a later date check if those are the common names, you do not have to do that part if you do not want to. --PBS (talk) 23:24, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

The scientific name does comply with the naming policy. --KP Botany (talk) 03:33, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Only if it is the most recognisable name (see the sections in WP:NC called "Use the most easily recognized name" and General conventions. --PBS (talk) 22:58, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

No, you're incorrect. I just read what you linked me to, and this is what it says about plants:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NC#Animals.2C_plants.2C_and_other_organisms

• "Animals, plants, and other organisms

  See: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (flora)"

So, yes, User:PBS, the scientific name does comply with the naming policy you just quoted me. Can you child the ferocious wikilawyering? --KP Botany (talk) 23:21, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The section on plants and animals does not mention using only scientific names it mainly addresses the issue of capitalisation "Insofar as there is any consensus among Wikipedia editors about capitalization of common names of species, it is that each WikiProject can decide on its own rules for capitalization. In general, common (vernacular) names of flora and fauna should be written in lower case — for example, "oak" or "lion". ..." --PBS (talk) 10:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I am opposed to changing the underlying principle of this page. The principle should remain "Use the name most commonly used by reliable sources."—with reference to other principles such as neutrality, precision and ambiguity, of course. Hesperian 04:54, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

"Use the name most commonly used by reliable sources" is not the underlying principle of this page. The clause "used by reliable sources" was relatively recently added, less than a year ago, and Wikipedia article names were successfully named for years without it. --Born2cycle (talk) 04:58, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

So you don't think names need to be reliable? I'm not being facetious; that's the only way I know how to read it.--Curtis Clark (talk) 05:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

(ec)Ahh, but "use reliable sources" is an underlying principle of Wikipedia. You know, that whole "project to built an encyclopaedia" thing... Guettarda (talk) 05:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Born2cycle, I read your objection as "it is not the underlying principle of this page because it has only been the underlying principle of this page for nearly a year".

Golly, articles were successfully named for years under the old convention? What a great convention that must have been, huh? I know another convention like that.

Hesperian 11:12, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

You misread. I'm saying that whatever underlying principle or principle this page has, it was not just recently added. That clause was just recently added. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

When it comes to flora DGG the common name is often the scientific name, the dispute is when it is not. Some think that the article should always be named using the scientific name even if it is demonstrably not the most common name. Born2cycle if ever you had closed a WP:RM and had to follow the muppets down the rabbit hole of foreign blogs naming a football player to prove that the spelling of the name they preferred was the most common, you would understand why the use verifiable reliable sources was added to the section "Use the most easily recognized name". The original section was added back in 2002, that was before WP:V existed, and given that policies should be interpreted using other policies and not in isolation, it made sense to tie in WP:V, so that the content and the page name are compatible because the methodology to obtain them is similar. --PBS (talk) 13:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

You haven't been listening, PBS. What most of us are fighting for here is not "using the scientific name even if it is demonstrably not the most common name" but rather "using the scientific name until somebody demonstrates that it is not the most common name"—the point being that since the scientific name is the most common name 99% of the time, the onus should be on those who would make an exception, to prove their point, rather than the other way around. Hesperian 04:13, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

User:PBS, would you provide us with what are the verifiable, reliable sources for demonstrating what is, in English, the most commonly used name for a plant? --KP Botany (talk) 21:20, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

We're supposed to identify the most commonly used name for each article topic, and usage in reliable sources is how we're supposed to do that. We're not supposed to determine what the most commonly used name is according to reliable sources, which is how you seem to be interpreting it. So, usage in books, magazines newspapers and even notable blogs all counts, arguably even Myspace entries (since they are verifiable). But what it does not mean is that you're supposed to go to some authoritative reference for the topic in question in order to find a declaration for what the most commonly used name is. At least that's how I understood it and have seen it applied for every topic, except for plants. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

No, interpretation is not needed, it explicitly says how to determine the "recognizability of a name." --KP Botany (talk) 22:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Can you please clarify this point for me? Is it your view that a Myspace entry could constitute a reliable source for the vernacular name of a plant?

I'm asking because, if that is your view, then it is so outrageously at odds with Wikipedia norms, that it might just be sufficient to sustain a topic ban.

Hesperian 03:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is my view that a Myspace entry could constitute a reliable source for the vernacular name of any topic, including a plant - as reliable as any other. If a Myspace entry refers to some plant as zifflepop, then that is a reliable and verifiable source for how that plant is called in the vernacular. Of course, to determine the most commonly used name for a given topic, we have to consider many such reliable sources, not just one particular one. If, for example, the only reliable source that refers to some plant as zifflepop is a single Myspace entry, or a single flora volume, then there is no basis to claim that zifflepop is the most commonly used name for that topic. So, yes, for determining commonly used names in the vernacular (for any topic, including plants), myspace entries are reliable sources. In fact, what people are writing in Myspace entries is probably a more reliable source for determining what someone is likely to type into a search box than is an academic text, which is what we're supposed to be considering when naming Wikipedia articles. --Born2cycle (talk) 07:30, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Then tell me, born2cycle, what an un"reliable source for the vernacular name of any topic" might look like.

I hereby assert that one of the vernacular names of the White-eared Honeyeater is Duran Duran. Is this talk page then a reliable source for that assertion? If not, then what is the difference between this page and a Myspace page such that only the latter is a reliable source? Hesperian 11:14, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources are defined in WP:SOURCES "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. ... In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers." So I would suggest that Myspace et all are not reliable sources. But there is no requirement for the sources used to be the most reliable sources therefore sources such as mainstream newspapers (quality topical magazine both on TV and in the press (eg Gardeners World, National Geographic) and TV documentaries) are important for determining names because they the source with which most non specialists will know of a subject. --PBS (talk) 10:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Philip, that's the problem with referencing WP:SOURCES in the guideline for determining the most commonly used name - common usage of a name in Myspace entries should count just as much as usage of that name in newspapers, magazines and books -- and should probably count more than usage in obscure academic texts -- with respect to determining what is the most commonly used name for a given topic. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Hesperian, frankly, I don't know what an unreliable source for a vernacular name would look like, which is why I think that relatively recently added clause should be removed from this guideline. To compare the kind of WP:SOURCES that are and should be required for establishing the veracity of content in an article to the type of sources required for establishing vernacular usage really makes no sense. But, I would say that an academic text is a less reliable source for vernacular usage than is say, a Myspace entry.

Let me ask you this. If you want to meet up with some of your friends for a few pints, at what type of establishment would you meet? Possibly a bar or a pub? Now, if the conversation wanders to the topic of drinking establishments themselves, and someone pulls out an iPhone to look up this topic on Wikipedia, what term do you think they would be most likely to type in? Perhaps pub? Seriously. Why do I ask? Because that reliable sources clause is why the article on that topic is not at pub, but at the obscure name, public house. The comments on the talk page of that article is itself a reliable source showing that the most common name used to refer to that topic is pub and not public house, yet there it is at the latter. Applying WP:SOURCES to determining vernacular usage is absurd. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I certainly agree with you that if there is no such thing as an unreliable source for a name, then "see what reliable sources say" is devoid of meaning, and should be removed.

"Interpret that line as though there are no unreliable sources" = "Interpret that line as though it is completely vacous" = "Interpret that line as though it were not there" = "Ignore that line".

Your interpretation of this policy is clearly not what emerges from a straightforward reading of it, and I think it is clear that it is not the consensus view. Yet you've repeatedly claimed that our reading of the policy is misconstrued, and that yours is correct.

I think it's time for you to put up or shut up. Stop advocating a liberal interpretation of that line when what you actually desire is its removal altogether. Formally propose its removal. Accept the outcome.

Hesperian 02:33, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Use the most easily recognized name

Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

This is justified by the following principle:

The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.

Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject. As a rule of thumb, when choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of Wikipedia put into the search engine?

--KP Botany (talk) 07:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Right, by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject. So, by seeing what all kinds of newspapers, magazines, books, websites, blogs, etc. call the subject, not just by seeing what the "common name" is according to some authoritative source for the given topic. Right? --Born2cycle (talk) 23:14, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Right. (no sarcasm, I'm agreeing) ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 23:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Blogs and websites are not reliable sources. "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." That means print publishing, and it means authors who are authorities on the subject: plants. It doesn't mean "all kinds" of sources. It means "reliable sources". Newspapers and magazines arguably are not reliable sources for plants either, unless they are "authoritative in relation to the subject at hand". Gardening magazines might qualify. Peer-reviewed journals would especially qualify: "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available, such as history, medicine and science."First Light (talk) 23:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

But, blogs, and websites are specifically excluded from reliable sources. Go read the policy yourself and see. If you're saying I should research what others are using, that's original research. No, I have to find out what someone else says is the most common name. --KP Botany (talk) 23:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

As you can see above I agree with KP Botany. I've been wanting to say that for days! --PBS (talk) 10:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

But only the first sentence. The second sentence and third sentence are I think a misunderstanding of the NC policy. If (s)he wishes to let some other editor decide what the most common source is then they are free to do so, but the sentence in WP:NC "Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." does not mean determined by survey sources on sources the common name of sources (as few such sources exist, but when they do they carry a lot of weight). It means the most recognisable name as agreed by Wikiedia editors working in good faith, using reliable sources to determine what the name should be. --PBS (talk) 11:02, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

KP, can you please sign the opening post of this section? Since you removed the separating line that I created, it looks like I posted it. I'm putting the line back in, at least for now (feel free to remove it after you sign your post).

The interpretation of the reliable sources clause to means that we are supposed determine the most commonly used name by seeing what reliable sources say the most common name is, rather than by seeing how reliable sources refer to the topic in question, is unique, and runs counter to how almost every article in Wikipedia has been named. Maybe we need to clarify in WP:NOR that it applies to article content, not article naming. Philip, I hope you're beginning to see how much trouble that clause is causing here. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

The NOR already says that it applies to article content. See the second paragraph of the NOR "No original research is one of three core content policies. The others are neutral point of view and verifiability. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in articles." (my emphasis) --PBS (talk) 10:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Right. NOR applies to article content, not to article naming. The issue of "most commonly used name" for any given topic is not something for which there are definitive sources for most any topic, yet Wikipedia editors are never-the-less obliged to determine the "most commonly used name" for every topic covered here. One might argue that NC requires Wikipedia editors to do original research in the specific area of determining the most commonly used name for each topic, and that's not a NOR violation since NOR applies only to article content. In fact, I believe that one of the de facto services Wikipedia now provides is as the source for specifying the most commonly used name for each topic, which is why articles like Public house (not at Pub) and Yucca brevifolia (not at Joshua tree) irk me so. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

That's not just a 'clause', and it's not just an 'interpretation'. It's one of the core policies of Wikipedia. It's the only way to determine article content, including titles: Reliable Sources. Otherwise it's guesswork, Original Research, and Unreliable Sources. There is no ambiguity there. First Light (talk) 00:10, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

See my comment above. The NOR policy does not trump the NC policy. NC relies on the content policies but they must be read as a whole. Your interpretaion would create a situation where for many areas of Wikipeia we could not determine the common name of an article, in which case the whole of the NC policy would become meaningless. That is not reading the policies as a whole --PBS (talk)

When there is controversy over a name, the only way to verify the correct name is with Reliable Sources, and without Original Research. The policy applies to the entire article, not just parts of it. It even applies to Categories, for example, where evidence from Reliable Sources are needed to prove controversial Category additions to an article. There are no exclusions written into WP:VERIFY. First Light (talk) 17:30, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually user:First Light WP:V like the NOR only covers content see WP:V "Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's core content policies. The others are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in Wikipedia articles." (My emphasis) WP:NC chooses to include WP:SOURCES because it makes sense for the name of the article and the contents to use the same sources.--PBS (talk) 00:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

That's only your interpretation. Mine is that "content" includes "title". First Light (talk) 00:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

There are practically no sources that even address the issue of what is the most commonly used name for any given topic, so the claim that referring to such sources is the only way to "verify" the "correct" name is absurd. The perhaps unfortunate reality is that determining the most commonly used name is not a cut and dry process. It is messy. There are bound to be disagreements and debates. That's the process. There is no place to look up the answer. On this particular issue, Wikipedia is the answer, and it's our job to determine the best answer in each case. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Using Wikipedia policies—Reliable Sources, No Original Research—and not made up ones, or the vague 'whatever people like'. First Light (talk) 18:09, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

With respect to naming articles according to the most commonly used name, restricting editors to do that while only referring to "reliable sources" as defined in WP:RS and following WP:NOR is effectively like handcuffing and blindfolding a surgeon just before handing her a scalpel: it makes the job impossible. You can get away with it, to some extent, in a category like plants because determining the most common name with such restrictions becomes practically impossible, and so all one can do is go with the scientific name, but such an "out" is not available for most other topics in covered in Wikipedia. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:36, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

For plant articles, adhering to Wikipedia's core policies and the current naming conventions has worked fine. It actually keeps unlicensed and shoddy 'surgeons' from maiming the patient. I still see no consensus here for changing it. First Light (talk) 19:24, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Even if it has "worked fine" (in your opinion) for plant articles, that's because there is a separate (scientific) nomenclature which can be used for plants if there is any question about what is the "most commonly used name" for a given plant topic (at least as long as the topic corresponds to a flora taxa). If this guideline was only supposed to apply to flora, that would be fine. But this guideline is general and applies to all articles in Wikipedia - therefore it needs to be interpreted in the general sense that most articles require, not in the very restrictive sense that happens to work for plant topics because of the pre-defined nomenclature that is available to them. And the same words in a general guideline should not be interpreted one way for one category of topics, and another way for every other category of topics. They should be interpreted consistently, and there is no way to use the restrictive interpretation that you want to apply to plant articles to all articles in Wikipedia. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

If it has to be a general guideline, then it has to be reliable sources and no original research. That's Wikipedia. First Light (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Come on, we've been over this already. With respect to determining the most commonly used name, using only reliable sources (as defined in WP:SOURCES) and doing no original research makes the task practically impossible for most articles. In fact, that fact is exactly why the proponents of using scientific names for plants argue the scientific names should be used - because it's practically impossible to determine the "most commonly used name" using only WP:SOURCES and without violating WP:NOR, so the name from the pre-defined nomenclature (scientific Latin names) has to be used. But with that interpretation of this general guideline, how are we supposed to come up with the names for every article in Wikipedia that is not about flora taxa? The only reasonable answer I can see is that we cannot restrict ourselves to WP:SOURCES and following WP:NOR when naming Wikipedia articles. --Born2cycle (talk) 20:50, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

If you want to start an article, and you aren't sure what to title it, you look to see what reliable sources call the topic. Say you had a topic that was covered in three authoritative textbooks, 8 newspaper articles, and 25 blogs. Three textbooks and 7 newspapers and 5 blogs called it X, one newspaper and 20 blogs call it Y. Do you really just count sources? Or maybe you have two names - one is used by the NY Times and the WSJ, while the other is used by WorldNet, the National Enquirer, Page 6 of the NY Post, and a letter to the editor in the LA Times. We don't count sources, we look at the reliability of sources.

But with that interpretation of this general guideline, how are we supposed to come up with the names for every article in Wikipedia that is not about flora taxa? In the event that we can't find reliable sources, or reliable sources differ, editors make a judgement call, or come to a compromise decision...as happens over and over for things like military operations. But even there, reliable sources are given priority. Guettarda (talk) 22:14, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

With respect to seeing what names are used in blogs and newspapers to reference a given topic, yes, I would probably give them equal weight when trying to determine which is the most commonly used name in the vernacular. I would tend to give text books less weight. After all, what we're supposed to be trying to do is identify the name most likely to be entered into a search box by the "average" Wikipedia user, and blogs are probably usually a more reliable predictor of what that would be than are text books. I agree reliable sources should be given priority, I just think that with respect to determining usage in the vernacular, blogs and even Myspace entries are more reliable than are text books. I mean, that's arguably true by definition. --Born2cycle (talk) 22:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

what we're supposed to be trying to do is identify the name most likely to be entered into a search box by the "average" Wikipedia user. No, we aren't. That's a rule of thumb, something to bear in mind. It isn't something we're supposed to be trying to determine. In fact, trying to determine that would clearly violate our core policies, including the idea that Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. If the "average" person misspells a word, we aren't supposed to title the article with the spelling error. That's kinda why there's a difference between policy and guideline. You can't elevate a "rule of thumb" to the status of Revealed Wisdom. It's a useful rule of thumb if you treat it as a rule of thumb. But you can't take it literally, especially not when it clashes so badly with our core mission... Guettarda (talk) 06:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I can't imagine that you will ever find consensus for blogs, myspace pages, and personal websites to be accepted by the Wikipedia community as verifiable sources for anything. First Light (talk) 23:30, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you User:First Light. Does that mean that you accept that there are reliable sources other than scientific papers (such as mainstream newspapers) that can be used to help determine the common names for plants? --PBS (talk) 00:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

There surely needs to be consensus on what is a reliable source for naming plant articles. First Light (talk) 00:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

For anything? Really? I suspect you're underestimating the abilities of your own imagination. Are you not able to imagine others agreeing that blogs, myspace pages and personal websites are reliable sources for establishing what is published on blogs, myspace pages and personal websites? Are you unable to imagine others agreeing that blogs, myspace pages and personal websites are reliable sources for establishing how vernacular is used on blogs, myspace pages and personal websites? When attempting to determine what name is most commonly used to refer to some topic in the vernacular, why would you or anyone else choose to ignore vernacular usage on blogs, myspace pages and personal websites? --Born2cycle (talk) 23:46, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

If it's accepted as Wikipedia policy, I would surely be surprised, and would pay proper obeisance to you. First Light (talk) 23:58, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

When attempting to determine what name is most commonly used to refer to some topic in the vernacular, why would you choose to ignore vernacular usage on blogs, myspace pages and personal websites? --Born2cycle (talk) 00:00, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

You mean apart from the fact that it constitutes original research? Well, aside from the fact that it violates our core principles, there's the simple fact that online usage is a highly non-random sample of use in English. Frequency of use online cannot be taken as representative of "use in English". Guettarda (talk) 06:22, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree WP:NOR is core policy in Wikipedia, with respect to article content. What is "just a clause" is the reference to reliable sources in this policy. I don't think WP:NOR applies to determining titles. For example, there are many titles in Wikipedia which most certainly are original, simply because of the way they are disambiguated. For examples, what citations in reliable sources can you find for the titles Cork (city) or Cork (material)? The idea that Wikipedia article titles are subject to WP:NOR is news to me and probably just about to anyone who has created unique Wikipedia article titles that conform to the naming guidelines. By the way, WP:NOR is not a naming guideline. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:24, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

The 'clause' you mention is the one clear statement in the naming convention about how to determine the name. It conforms to the rest of Wikipedia policy: Reliable Sources. As far as NOR, I'll repeat what I said to PBS just above: if a title is controversial, then the application of all relevant Wikipedia policies to verify what is correct hold true. Reliable Sources and No Original Research are central to that. First Light (talk) 17:37, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Now that I've show than the naming conventions are semi-detached policy from the three polices that go to make up the content house. Do you still hold the same position? --PBS (talk) 00:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

You haven't proved that, and yes. First Light (talk) 00:54, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Have I not put in bold the statement in both the NOR and WP:V that they cover content and not article names? (NOR "acceptable in articles" and WP:V "in Wikipedia articles.") --PBS (talk) 01:01, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I should add that KP Botany conveniently left out the sentence that clarifies the one he put in bold above. It says: " As a rule of thumb, when choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of Wikipedia put into the search engine?" (I just added it). Now, why would the average user of Wikipedia be more influenced by a reference on flora than by a newspaper, magazine or even a travel blog when putting the name of a plant he or she is interested in into the search engine? I dare say the average user of Wikipedia is probably much more familiar with, and influenced by, usage in books, magazines, newspapers and even blogs than by usage in relatively obscure flora references collecting dust on their yellowing pages in libraries. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps, but who is to say? It is only your opinion and that of like-minded individuals. I would add that you may not persuade those who disagree with you by disparaging scholarly sources. We rely on those sources to write good articles and without them we would not have the content that we are quibbling about naming. My reading of WP:AGF is that the word "conveniently" is not helpful above; you may wish to strike it. Walter Siegmund (talk) 01:58, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

KP Botany left that bit out because it does not merit discussion: it is the bit we all agree on, notwithstanding efforts by some to erect it as a straw man. Where we disagree is in deciding how we should assess the answer to that question. Our position can be summarised as "The naming convention policy tells us to see what reliable sources use, so do that". Your position can be summarised as "Yeah, well, that bit of the policy is new, and I don't like it." Hesperian 04:08, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

B2c, the idea that article titles are not subject to being verified by reliable sources, when there is disagreement, is being .... creative, to be generous. Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, depends on verifiability. If there was a real disagreement about Cork (material) vs. Crok (material), reliable sources would determine the outcome. Not blogs, not websites, not what you and your friends use alot, but Reliable Sources. First Light (talk) 04:00, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

U.S. Marines count out push-ups.

I never said that articles titles are not subject to being verified by reliable sources. The issue is about what constitutes a reliable source in the context of determining most commonly used names. --Born2cycle (talk) 07:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

That is patently false, Born2cycle. You have stated that there is no such thing as an unreliable source in this context. Thus you rob the term "reliable sources" of any meaning. Hesperian 02:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:RS is unambiguous and clear about what qualifies as a Reliable Source. Blogs, myspace, neighbors, etc. are not. First Light (talk) 17:40, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. My issue is whether the "reliable sources" identified in WP:RS makes sense as "reliable sources" for determining the most commonly used name in the vernacular. I don't see how it makes any sense whatsoever for that purpose - to the contrary, in fact. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:59, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for leaving that bit out. I didn't consider that it was part of this particular debate, as in there was no disagreement in that area--maybe I was wrong. But I had copied and pasted it here. Maybe I deleted it while bolding, and trying to put in my signature. Which I used to do a lot more often on Wikipedia. So, let's not debate this issue about my intentions for leaving it out. It was accidental. I did only intend to bold the one part, but include both, because it's in a paragraph in the guidelines.

So, if you want to assume bad faith about my failing to bold the whole section, go forth and assume the position of bad faith! Oops, I did it again. --KP Botany (talk) 07:34, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

No worries. --Born2cycle (talk) 07:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

user:Born2cycle considers that reliable sources are more than just those mentioned in WP:SOURCES. B2C's arguments are not foolish, but they also open the door to some problems such as foreign blogs (or even reliable foreign sources) to justify naming articles with names that are not usually used in English, and B2C seems to be alone in proposing "myspace entries are reliable sources". Further, and correct me if I am wrong, Born2cycle is not suggesting that we change the words in the paragraph that starts "Determine the common ...".

Is there anyone who has contributed to this thread that now would insist that reliable sources means less than those mentioned in WP:SOURCES eg only papers published in scientific journals and university published books?

Is there anyone who has taken part in this thread who still considers that an article can only be created if a reliable source states what the most common name is for the subject of an article? Or are the usual methods used to ascertain the name of an article by Wikipedia editors who create an article (have a butchers at the sources and name after that used in the sources) those described in the naming conventions policy? and the paragraph in this guideline "Determine the common name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject. As a rule of thumb, when choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of Wikipedia put into the search engine?" --PBS (talk) 00:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

So if no-one wants to change the paragraph that starts "Determine the common name..." can we move on to the two paragraphs that there is dispute over changing? --PBS (talk) 00:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Point of clarification. I do not consider that reliable sources are more than those mentioned in WP:SOURCES with respect to what WP:SOURCES addresses: article content. I do consider that reliable sources are more than those mentioned in WP:SOURCES with respect to determining the most common name used to refer to a given topic in English vernacular. To be clear, any example of English vernacular is a reliable source of English vernacular, by definition. As such, English myspace entries are examples of English vernacular, and, so, must be reliable sources for name usage within English vernacular. That just seems like plain fact to me. How could anyone disagree? What am I missing?

You are mostly correct that I'm not suggesting we change the words in the paragraph that starts, "Determine the common name...". However, I do urge the removal of the very confusing link to WP:SOURCES in that first sentence. In this context of determining usage in the vernacular, what constitutes "reliable sources" is very different from what is intended at WP:SOURCES: reliable sources for establishing the veracity of information cited in the content of an article. With the removal of that link, it may well be that further clarification is required as to what "reliable sources" means in that context. I suggest that the term "sources" itself is misleading as it implies that restrictive meaning that is appropriate for establishing content veracity, but not for establishing usage in the vernacular. I also think the word "most" should be restored since that is what we're supposed to be determining. So how about this?

Determine the most common name by seeing what actual verifiable and reliable examples of English vernacular use to refer to the topic. As a rule of thumb, when choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of Wikipedia put into the search engine?

--Born2cycle (talk)

POLL

Proposed by Born2cycle: Born2cycle

Determine the most common name by seeing what actual verifiable and reliable examples of English vernacular use to refer to the topic. As a rule of thumb, when choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of Wikipedia put into the search engine?

above copied here w header added by Una Smith

At last a concrete proposal!—Something we can all pile on to, to let you know that your bizarre interpretation of this policy is contrary to consensus!

• Strong oppose. We should adjudge the most common name by seeing name is most commonly used by reliable sources for the topic of the article. Hesperian 02:43, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose Reliable Sources (as defined at WP:RS) is the only way to verify (as defined at WP:VERIFY) the most commonly used name for article titles. First Light (talk) 02:55, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

  Please note First Light that it is not WP:RS which is used but WP:SOURCES. Please read the paragraph that starts "For a guideline discussing...".--PBS (talk) 11:53, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. First Light (talk) 15:32, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - I have no idea what the average wikipedian searches for or how they do it, I do have an idea what the average person that looks for information on plants does. If we go with "common names" for species pages we are going to confuse a lot of people and make them work harder to find what they are looking for (large groups of plants might be different - sun flowers, daisyies, trees, orchids, mints). There is a reason that we use reliable sources- because people find them reliable. Hardyplants (talk) 05:24, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose If we are to determine the most common name for use as an article title, then it makes sense to me that we should at least try to restrict ourselves to using reliable sources. --Jwinius (talk) 08:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose When a common name is ambiguous, in most cases of vernacular use the intended meaning is unknown (and often simply in error). For centuries botanists have collected vernacular names along with specimens; this is the highest quality information possible to obtain because the botanist holds a specimen of the plant in one hand and with the other hand writes the informant's name for the plant. Back home in the herbarium, the botanist affixes both specimen and vernacular name to the same sheet of paper. --Una Smith (talk) 06:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose In the absence of specific "actual verifiable and reliable" sources. Again, it seems that those proposing we use such sources can't find a single one for English. To say pick a name by asking yourself what the average user would use is simply a command for original research and seriously biased regionalism. --KP Botany (talk) 07:40, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose (might as well pile on): Has the potential to circumvent two pillars of Wikipedia, no original research and verifiability. Redirects and disambiguation pages handle what any user of Wikipedia puts into a search engine.--Curtis Clark (talk) 14:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Enough, this is no longer constructive

I think it's pretty clear at this point that there are 2 people causing a lot of frustration for a whole bunch of other people. Rather than endlessly debating this, I think an RFC is probably in order here. The conversations above aren't in any way constructive. --SB_Johnny | ^talk 01:06, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

For the record, SB__Johnny is a self-described "organic horticulturist" and continues to "study plants" [1] and probably thinks this is mostly about plant article naming. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

For the record, Born2cycle's attempt to change the naming policy at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (flora) ended unhappily for him, with the parting comment "I'm going to refrain from posting here any more".[12] The very next day he showed up here with the same arguments, trying to change the flora policy as it was being applied here.[13] So SB_Johnny would be right. First Light (talk) 03:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I've been complaining about this guideline being ignored [1], and favoring change to the wording here [2] long before the fiasco at flora was brought to my attention. And I've been pushing adherence for adherence to the common name policy (and opposing unnecessary ambiguation) for years, particularly in the areas of U.S. city naming and some with respect to TV episode naming. Flora is a manifestation of the problem I care about, not the problem I care about. Your view of my perspective is understandably biased because you were introduced to it in the context of plants. --Born2cycle (talk) 05:35, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

B2c, those exceptions are not a bad thing. Unfortunately, so many of the articles we have are on subjects for which it will always be difficult to determine the most common name. The examples of TV episodes, football players and city names come to mind. We know that there are many such cases about which Wikipedians have argued, are now arguing, and will continue to argue about in the future. That's a great pity, because it represents an enormous amount of wasted effort that could otherwise have been (or be) spent producing actual content. Unfortunately, there is usually not much that we can do about this. The problem is that in such disputes there are usually no lists of official and unique names to turn to, so many of us will be forever doomed to squabble about it (and not always produce the best answer). Call it the "Wikipedia way," it may seem pathetic, but what choice do we have?

Actually, there is at least one case in which there are millions of official and unique names that we can use to resolve these kinds of mind-numbing and demotivating disputes. However, what really is pathetic is that, amazingly, many of us would choose not to use them, preferring instead to force others to do it all the "Wikipedia way" for the misguided, stubborn and staggeringly simplistic reason that appearance is always more important than anything else. --Jwinius (talk) 09:17, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Open question that gets to the heart of the issue

I've asked this of First Light, but it has not been answered and may have been lost in the noise. So I open this question to anyone and all, for it ultimately gets to the heart of the issue with respect to the linking of "reliable sources" in this naming guideline to WP:SOURCES, which is addressing the issue of article content. Here it is:

When attempting to determine what name is most commonly used to refer to some topic in the English vernacular, why would you choose to ignore English vernacular usage on blogs, myspace pages and personal websites? --Born2cycle (talk) 01:23, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Because perhaps foolishly the average editor of Wikipedia assumes that the average user of Wikipedia thinks that this is an online encyclopaedia and as such it is not unreasonable to assume that readers will probably look for a name similar to those used in the (other) reliable sources with which they are familiar, and not the name they would expect hear on the street (or in an internet chat room). Hence heroin instead of skag. Now if one makes that assumption, rather than guessing what is used in other reliable sources, if we are lucky we will find a reliable source that says "fu" is the commonly used name for topic "fu". But if not we can estimate what other reliable sources used by doing a survey through search engines, looking at library catalogues etc. --PBS (talk) 02:40, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

You are unfairly conflating "vernacular usage on blogs, myspace pages and personal websites" with "the name they would expect hear on the street" and clarifying what you mean by the latter with your heroin/skag example. Distinctive name usage in slang (like "skag") is typically not the most common name used for a given topic (though it may eventually evolve to be - much of common usage today probably evolved from what was considered slang in the past). This is the encyclopedia with articles titled Jimmy Carter, Cher and Madonna (entertainer), rather than James Earl Carter, Cherilyn Sarkisian' and Madonna Louise Ciccone Ritchie. The whole idea of Wikipedia and common name is particular is that people are most likely type in a search box that which they are most likely to read, hear, write and say themselves. This is why I'm still perplexed by your favoring Public house over pub. --Born2cycle (talk) 05:19, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

What PBS said. You're begging the question, Born2cycle. We aren't trying to "determine what name is most commonly used to refer to some topic in the English vernacular"—that is your interpretation of what we are trying to do, and it is essentially what is under dispute here. What we are trying to determine is what name the average user of Wikipedia would plug into the search box. The only time the omission of blogs etc would make a difference is when blogs etc use a different name to reliable sources, as in PBS's heroid/skag example. In such cases, "the average user of Wikipedia", knowing that we are a serious encyclopedia not some loser's personal blog, will expect us to be using the name preferred by reliable sources. Hesperian 02:50, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

If "use the most common name of a person or thing" and the "word the average user of Wikipedia would put into the search engine" does not mean we should be trying to "determine what name is most commonly used to refer to each topic in the English vernacular", what does it mean? --Born2cycle (talk) 05:19, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you unable to conceive that someone would type in something other than the term that they use in the vernacular? Would Jenna Bush type in "George W. Bush" or "Dad"? Would the average foul-mouthed factory worker type in "vagina" or "cunt"? People adjust their terminology according to their audience and expectations. That is not my opinion; it is a fact of linguistics. Hesperian 05:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you think you could make your point without resorting to such ridiculous hyperbole in your examples? I doubt it, which is my point. --Born2cycle (talk) 05:56, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Very well. The answer to your question is, they mean "use the most common name of a person or thing" and "word the average user of Wikipedia would put into the search engine", respectively. The onus is on you to establish that these are equivalent to "determine what name is most commonly used to refer to each topic in the English vernacular". Hesperian 06:01, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. I incorrectly assumed we had consensus about them being the same in meaning. My bad. At least that was clarified. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:51, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

If "use the most common name of a person or thing" and the "word the average user of Wikipedia would put into the search engine" does not mean we should be trying to "determine what name is most commonly used to refer to each topic in the English vernacular", what does it mean? It's a helpful hint, not law. It says "ask yourself", it doesn't say "go forth and research".

Have a look at the entire guideline. For one, there's the statement: in cases where the common name of a subject is misleading, then it is sometimes reasonable to fall back on a well-accepted alternative. In other words - use common sense and remember that we're an encyclopaedia. Another thing - this page is basically a fossil, a relic from an earlier age when Wikipedia was a totally different being. Look at the rationale: We want to maximize the likelihood of being listed in external search engines. Not such a big deal any more. The text is almost unchanged from what Mave wrote in 2002. This page isn't supposed to tell us what to do, it's supposed to give some hints on how to do it. Look at how that sentence got into here: 05:58, 6 February 2003 Mav (Talk | contribs | block) (Adding great comment by user:Two16). Seriously, you're giving too much weight to a sentence that really shouldn't have survived the rise of WP:V... Guettarda (talk) 07:36, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposal

For those loosely following this great debate, a concrete proposal has been put forward for discussion two sections up. Hesperian 03:48, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Who the naming is for

After reading through some of the prolonged arguments over flora names above, it seems there is some lack of macro-level discussion that relates the topic with the purpose of Wikipedia. Although those who are interested in plants from a biological or taxonomic perspective might assume that those seeking information on Wikipedia might share their view, such is not necessarily the case. One might look up "bracken" for those reasons but then one might be simply trying to find out about it as an ingredient of bibimbap.

Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia for a general reader. It is not a work of biology or botany and is not meant to be a pure taxonomy. Yet there seems to be an underlying assumption by many that non-biology-based approaches to plants or their derivatives are somehow inferior or at least of lesser concern. This can be seen not only in titles but in the structure of articles and the arrangement of infoboxes. (A chef would likely have little use for Wikipedia's pitiful content on button mushrooms and Portobello mushrooms conflated as they are into Agaricus bisporus) Such structures can even serve to discourage contributors who seek to add non-biology-related info.

I understand that this tendency is natural in a formal written work and in many cases is desired (I sponsored an effort to use the scientific name of prunus mume myself). However, editors should step back and ponder whether it serves a general audience well to foist a formal system of purely taxonomic titles on an audience of chefs, gardeners, furnituremakers, and publicans as well as biologists. Wikipedia should not be hijacked to create a taxonomy because, in the long term, it will make for an encyclopedia less accessible to a general audience. — AjaxSmack 04:15, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we all pretty much agree with all that, AjaxSmack. But all the eloquence in the world can't make inherently complex situations simpler than they are. Hesperian 04:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The existing plant naming convention explicitly calls for articles on plant products that are titled with the vernacular name of the product, so "chefs, gardeners, furnituremakers, and publicans" should all be happy with that. They might even be surprised and pleased to find that seemingly-random variation in a product is due to the use of several different species, each of which has its own separate article detailing the differences. Stan (talk) 14:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Stan, beg to differ. The naming convention says to use the "most common name" which some people interpret as "most commonly used common name" and others interpret as "most commonly used name". --Una Smith (talk) 16:10, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

AjaxSmack, Since you mention gardeners, I'll respond as a gardener of the most common type—not a professional gardener, no formal training, a full time career that has nothing to do with gardening, just someone who enjoys gardening (and wildflowers). Gardeners are much more inclined to use the scientific name than you think. We are certainly not specialists or experts, just the main 'consumer' of the subject (plants) of these articles. Because of the regional variations in ('common') naming, we have learned to depend on, and become knowledgeable of, the scientific names. One example: I was aware of the discussion about the recent move of Tickseed to Coreopsis. I've grown this plant for thirty years. It's always been 'coreopsis', whether talking to a nursery clerk, or a local gardener, or a gardener from another region. About 1-5% of the time, I've heard it called 'tickseed'. But when I see 'tickseed' mentioned somewhere, I first make sure that it's not referring to some other provincially named 'tickseed', since even common gardeners know that "common" plant names are too common—they are used for many different species. I think that gardeners, and wikipedia users in general, are not as dumb as they are sometimes given credit to be. Let's not dumb down Wikipedia just so certain users don't have to think too hard, while making it much harder for the average gardener, and average person. First Light (talk) 16:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)