Talk:Bernie Madoff

An Aside on "investment" vs. "speculation"

Haven't paid attention to this thread¹ since starting it but good to see the process work. Saw Mort Zuckerman on the News Hour last night and he claimed to have never heard of Madoff before this broke only of the Ascot Fund and some charity he was associated with which had put everything in the fund, sounded odd¹. The thing is though, how is a Ponzi scheme different from "investing" in general? Somebody somewhere in the chain of money creation collects the profit extracted from unpaid labor and distributes it. If they keep it or distribute in ways that returns the extracted value OR loss back in a way that is somehow direct to higher levels of the value extraction food chain then that's OK. But if you mix the streams AND cause a big mess then suddenly people don't want your ethnicity discussed, don't know you, etc. Lycurgus (talk) 06:01, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
¹I believe he actually said 'I never heard of him until ...'.

Lycurgus, "investment" is different from "speculation" (see Benjamin Graham's The Intelligent Investor), and they are both different from "securities fraud." In this case, the fraud was a "Ponzi scheme." A Ponzi scheme distributes profits to old investors from the principle investment of new investors. In reality, though, there are no profits at all. The profits are coming from the new money the manager brings into the fund. (There need not be any investment at all.) But, in regular investment, your profit comes from the difference between what you initially paid for a stock and what you ultimately sell it for. The profits actually come from a valid source, that is the rise in market value of a particular stock on the day you decide to sell. And that rise is based on company performance (and investor psychology). The problem with the Ponzi scheme is that if you don't keep getting new investors' money to pay profits to the older investors, the scheme will collapses like house of cards and the last investor(s) to join will get burned. ask123 (talk) 18:21, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, Lycurgus, no one's trying to supress details on Madoff's ethnicity. It's just a matter of relevancy. In the case of this subject, religion is only relevant in a biographical context. As far as Madoff's victims are concerned, some were Jewish. Some were Christian. Some were Muslim. Some were Hindi. Etc., etc., etc. If you find some other significance for Madoff's religion, please let us know. But, as of now, there is none other. ask123 (talk) 18:23, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course I'm aware of this. My point is that the distribution of "profit" and the entire Price System are arbitrary and there is little inherent difference in the "corrupt" distribution of "profit" relative to that which is considered "legitimate". In "reality" the concept of "profit" generally confounds the extraction of surplus value with "productivity", i.e. the production of socially useful goods and services. The distribution of any part of the value of applied labor-power to any besides those persons supplying it is inherently unjust in my view so in this sense the difference between the operation of a Ponzi scheme and an investment service which maintains the integrity of the chain from primary investor to application of the capital to some production process and the flow of extracted profit back to said investors is, at the level of that matter of principle of the producers of said value having the right to all of it, negligible. Lycurgus (talk) 05:19, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

As for the issue that caused me to create this thread², it is largely irrelevant/unimportant by comparision with these fundamental issues except for the glaring attempt to suppress info and the contradiction relative to clear usage elsewhere in wiki. Lycurgus (talk) 05:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic. As for you other point, I think it's a bit naive. Almost all of the amenities you enjoy are here as a result of the evolution of the economy. When I say evolution, I don't mean evolution into publicly traded markets. That's even further advanced than I'm thinking. Even just a basic, rather rudimentary economy -- but one that has evolved beyond the single, individual laborer -- defies your Utopian vision. How about someone who thinks of an idea for a product and then has others with expertise assemble it? If the guy with the idea gets paid for that, is that "unjust," as you put it? Many people in a company besides laborers will get paid because it takes more than just labor to make something and to sustain production over a long period of time. Moreover, many of the products today are so complex that it's actually impossible for laborers to do it alone.

And, as far as the equities markets are concerned, they serve an important purpose in and of themselves: raising money for the businesses that are traded. As I'm sure you know, when a company goes public, it sells shares to the public. The proceeds from those sales help finance the future endeavors of the company. It's a way of financing the company's vision (just as issuing bonds are) and is the main reason a company will need to issue shares or go public at all. This form of financing is a lynchpin for many (if not most) of the products you use and enjoy today. Without it, many of these business would lose viability. As far as public shareholders go, they help finance the company's vision in exchange for a piece of ownership. And when you're an owner, you're entitled to a portion of the profits via dividends and have the opportunity to make money selling your shares if they appreciate in price. They don't get to become owners gratis remember. And owners also have the possibility of loosing money through depreciation in price. So, in that way, the equities markets serve an important purpose, one very different from an actual deception. One other major difference: when you buy stock, you are entitled to the "full and fair disclosure" of the company's dealings. Madoff forged all of that -- he provided no full and fair disclosure since he lied about everything. ask123 (talk) 21:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

By "producers of said value" I meant all those involved in production. The fair division of proceeds from the group product is a (mere) technical problem. An "investor" who supplies nothing but capital is not a member of this set but obviously everyone with some role in actual production, including the person whose original idea some project was, are. Lycurgus (talk) 22:27, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

The point being, both the idealized abstraction 'said value' (i.e the work product of an arbitrary group of workers), state and other 'real' forms of the money commodity, and money forms offered by a Madoff are themselves nothing, at most paper or a precious metal. The real thing(s) underlying and commanding all are the actual instances of applied labor power. It is merely the imprimatur of a social order that separates the "fictitious capital" of a Madoff sold as shares in his investment service or stipulates his accounting as improper and that of the other agencies not deriving their legitimacy by explicit transfer of all the value from its natural owners, i.e. those that produced it. Lycurgus (talk) 21:50, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

This digression into Marxist economic theory is somewhat off topic. --John Nagle (talk) 23:03, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Technically, or at least in my case, acceptance of the Labour Theory of Value doesn't necessarily imply an acceptance of Marxist economic theory, even if the latter is defined by the former. I do accept the former but I don't even consider the latter to actually be an economic theory². The relevance to the article, while not direct (which is why it's here in the background), is obvious. 72.228.150.44 (talk) 23:12, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, I don't want it to go unremarked that I have observed the display above in language of the confusion that exists in the mind of the typical American about such terms as "labour" or "working class", let alone comparatively esoteric matters such as founding principles of economics. 72.228.150.44 (talk) 23:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

And BTW, apparently the SEC couldn't see much difference over the 15 or 16 years where they rejected fraud allegations. 72.228.150.44 (talk) 00:24, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

---

¹ "jewishness not notable?" originally "religion not notable?", the first thread created in the discussion page for this article (currently in Archive 2 Lycurgus (talk) 19:37, 15 January 2009 (UTC)).
² Which is why it's called "Marxian political economy", it's mostly politics relatively little mathematics/economics. To be distinguished from, e.g. Modern Analysis of Value Theory (Y. Fujumori 1982)

Don't fret, everybody, Marxists and other promoters of the old labour theory of value come out of the woodwork during every big financial fraud. "The supposed 'fraud' pales in comparison with the institutionalized fraud which is the extraction of surplus value from the workers blah blah blah"[paraphrasing a little]. Discussion of this theory and it's refutation by the Jevons/Walras/Menger marginal utility theory of value belongs on those pages.

For Madoff's Jewishness, the article now notes that he sought out Jewish victims, exclusively, calling it a form of 'affinity fraud'. If true, it would be relevant to the article, but is there any documentation that he was, in fact, doing this? The person above, who said that Madoff targeted everybody, Christians, Hindus, etc. did not give a source for his assertion either. So, what are the facts?

Perhaps there should also be a passing mention of the fact that Jews are specifically prohibited by the Decalogue from stealing, bearing false witness or coveting their neighbours goods, and that Madoff is an atypical backslider. Ah well, we humans have 'em. 76.2.152.124 (talk) 19:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Unless I'm mistaken Jews were also prohibited from usury and Jewish tradition has/had several rules about the expiry of debts between Jews. However the Jewish issue is a diversion. Marginal utility (as a fundamental theory of value (economics), not as a device of mathematical economics) is bourgeois apologetics (and conventional wisdom) which tired right wingers inevitably claim to be a universal law of nature once the labour theory is mentioned. It's like their claim of "human nature" as the (inevitable) source of a number of persistent pernicious conditions. Defense of the status quo, conventional wisdom, reigning paradigm, etc. with a tendency to move actually to the status quo ante and earlier paradigms is what defines them as right wing. 72.228.150.44 (talk) 13:57, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Truth is inevitable; if it seems 'tired' that is because it is obliged to stick to possibilities and always comes up with the same answers to the same questions. And attempting to re-interest people in the exploded labor theory of value is a return to the status quo ante, if you like, so are we to define you as 'right wing'? But this all belongs on the econ pages. Remember to not try and inject it into this article. 76.2.152.124 (talk) 19:52, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Rabbi wants Madoff excommunicated for bringing shame on Jewish people

A quick search in Google will show that “Madoff” and “Jewish” brings about 295,000 web links already. This is certainly an interesting fact given that it has only been a short time ago that he was placed under house arrest. I think the comments about Madoff's Jewishness being just a tiny fact and nothing relevant to this article is somewhat naive, given the fact that the JTA website has just published an open letter today by Rabbi Joshua Hammerman (religious leader of Temple Beth El in Stamford) to the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations calling for Madoff to be excommunicated from the Judaic faith here:

[Rabbi: Kick Madoff out of the the Jewish people] [1]

The article goes on to say, and I would have to agree, that the most effective way to address it is through a clear repudiation not only of Madoff himself, but of the anti-Judaic nature of his acts. Covering something up or downplaying it does nothing but fuels the fire of "jewish conspiracy theories". The Truth is always perfect even when ugly. If you try to always paint a rosy picture of yourself or one's country or tribe it comes off as completely inauthentic. Is not modesty the foundation of all virtue? Like everything else in this World there are good apples and bad apples, but this does not detract from the fact, that whether they are good or bad they are still apples.

The information about Rabbi Hammerman writing the letter asking for Madoff to be excommunicated and "cut off" from the Judaic faith is relevant and should be included in this article for the simple fact it is addressed to the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations. A serious issue! Anyone else agree?

Mindeagle (talk) 02:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Too soon. So far, it's just one person's opinion. If actual movement in that direction starts, it's worth a mention. --John Nagle (talk) 04:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I do not agree with Nagle. Mindeagle is correct, this is the opinion of a Rabbi and it is clearly a position that has resonance within the Jewish community. All communities harbor scoundrels, and trying to hide the warts only exaggerates them in the minds of haters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.247.61.155 (talk) 09:54, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Other than the original publication of Hammerman's letter, this hasn't yet been picked up by other media or organizations. So it's not something that's really happening yet. Madoff has been kicked off the board of Yeshiva University; that's real. The Palm Beach Country Club hasn't been heard from yet. --John Nagle (talk) 16:56, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Nagle, thanks for the comments and your updates regarding what Madoff has been "cut off" from so far. You might be right about it being too soon to mention the excommunication issue, I don't want to jump the gun yet, though I thought it was a fairly serious issue when religious leaders are involved. However, one can hardly deny the outrage coming from Jewish groups, because he stole from his own people. There should be something here about the World Jewish community's reaction to the allegations made against Madoff, because it is simply too big to ignore. The outrage from concerned Jewish groups is very real, as is their concern that Madoff's behaviour will lead to futher hatred towards Jewish people. Try doing a search in Google for "madoff jewish" and look at the hundreds of thousands of websites and blogs from Jewish perspectives talking about Madoff and just how much of a Jew he is. These are unashamedly Jewish interest websites that play up his Jewishness, not some loony hate-group trying to create a negative image. The very first two links are to the Jewish Journal with headlines like:

Is Bernie Madoff Jewish? Very. Oy. | U.S. | Jewish Journal' [2]

Madoff: Jewish, yes, but Orthodox too?' [3]

Madoff: Jewish fury as a community reviles a cultural betrayal ...' [4]

Now this is an issue that is not going to go away on its own accord. Some people here have commented that they think there is some sort of double standard and censoring going on in Wikipedia to deny Madoff's Jewish ethnicity and ancestry. Whilst this can be construed as an opinion, the facts do seem to suggest it as a possibility as most articles on people in Wikipedia mention Jewish ethnicity usually in the first sentence. Sometimes these articles even note a Jewish grandparent (even on the paternal line) in the first paragraph, as if this Jewishness was crucial or the most important thing about the person that made them everything of what they are. Yet, in this article his ethnicity (orthodox Jew) takes a back seat to everything else. That is you would have no idea he is Jewish without looking in the info box. I also noticed that somebody has edited out the bit about him being born into a Jewish family in the last 24 hours. Surely, this is a pure case of biased reporting in my mind and shows some sort of censoring is indeed going on, as numerous other's here in this talk section have raised as a major concern. I abhor ideologies of hatred of every description and creed, but if there is one thing that riles me up and I truly take issue with and make a stand on, is the suppression of the Truth. I could be of the mark here, but my intuition tells me it is politically motivated and not in the interests of Wikipedia NPOV or humanity as a whole. To a certain extent, I can understand political lobbying organisations like the ADL & AIPEC being concerned that such facts may breed resentment and hatred in someone looking for someone or group to blame, but in this case I think it goes against what Wikipedia is all about. As far as I know Wikipedia is not a PR tool for political agendas or generating public opinion. Anyone else agree?

Madoff has been condemned by hundreds of Jewish groups who denounced his behaviour as the very anti-thesis of what it means to be a Jew, namely the importance and emphasis on ethics and values (just remember that the World's most famous Jew was also the World's greatest ethical teacher). The fact that all these Jewish groups are going ballistic over his actions shows that it is indeed an isolated case of a grossly deceptive and wicked act from a Jewish person in the public eye. The thing is he must have been very convincing to all he stole from, and it is a shame, because he looks like a nice guy with a warm smile and portly belly, the sort of guy you could have a laugh with and trust.

It is not my style to change the article or make additions to it, until there is a consensus from other editors and in the interests of Wikipedia's NPOV some of this consensus must come from other editors who identify themselves as Jewish. Only in that way will we get a nice balanced article that has no political sentiments running through it...just the facts and no opinion. As you can no doubt tell, I am not Jewish (actually Scottish) and will listen to anyone who does not have a political agenda in mind, to keep this article honest. One of the values of my culture is that the ugly facts of life should never be covered up or swept under the table, you must present life as it is in its entirety, warts and all, regardless of whether it is pretty or not. Those who share a similar vision of responsibility towards honesty, please speak up? No this is not an open invitation for all the Anti-semites and racists to crawl out from under their rocks in a show of support. Let's just keep to the facts. I'll be back in the next 12 hours before I make my changes, however, some consensus beforehand would be in the interests of all the editors to this article.

-- Mindeagle (talk) 23:49, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the Jewish aspect is handled appropriately in the article. I don't think the "excommunication" bit belongs, unless it gets traction. JohnnyB256 (talk) 00:58, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Madoff's identity is being swept under the carpet in order to serve the ADL's political agenda -- and this is PR and advocacy pure and simple. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.247.61.155 (talk) 10:40, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Seems prominently mentioned to me. What do you want to add? JohnnyB256 (talk) 13:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

His use of affinity fraud as a section. Failure to being this up is dishonest at best. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.247.61.155 (talk) 13:50, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

His preying on the Jewish community is dealt with somewhat amply in "sales methods." Since he did not exclusively prey on Jews, I don't think that "affinity fraud" is precisely what he engaged in. JohnnyB256 (talk) 14:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

No, that section is not set up to focus on the affinity aspect. Please respect my intelligence and begin genuinely assuming goodwill instead of blackballing any and all who want the communal aspects of this affair highlighted as haters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.247.61.155 (talk) 16:07, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I think you're confusing me with some other person. I haven't even participated in this discussion that much, and have not therefore "blackballed" anyone to the best of my recollection. JohnnyB256 (talk) 16:21, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Jewish aspect is handled appropriately now. It has "miraculously" appeared in the article again in the last 24 hours. Glad to see somebody's conscience got the better of them and is at least trying to be honest and open. After much consideration and putting the shoe on the other foot, I see it is a bit politically sensitive at this time to mention the affinity. But you got to wonder, does Madoff have an army of scribers working for him, and if so, just how much of a kickback from the missing 50 billion are they getting? Reminds me of the essence of Leonard Cohen's song "Everybody Knows" - the dice was loaded, the ship's captain lied, the rich get richer, the poor stay poor, that's the way it goes...and everybody knows. Talk about the frustration of political impotence. Peace! -- Mindeagle (talk) 01:27, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Sure, it definitely belongs in the article, and it is there. I don't see what this IP's complaint is. If it wasn't there at all I could see the issue. Right now, it is mentioned. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 19:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Uhh... Why should it be mentioned? Who is this Rabbi and why is he notable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.52.174.129 (talk) 05:44, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

The Rabbi himself is not that notable, however, the letter and who it is addressed to is. An open letter to the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations. However there has been little uptake by the media regarding the reaction or reply to the letter. For this reason, we can safely assume that it does not represent the views of these organisations and is therefore not as "newsworthy" for Wikipedia as I first assumed when the story broke. By the way you should sign your posts, and be prepared to put your name behind what you say, so that you come of as credible, rather than an anonymous lurker with an agenda. -- Mindeagle (talk) 09:34, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Only a Reform Rabbi would make such a request. In the very fundamentals of the Jewish Faith and its inherent values, you can't disown a Jew even if they disown the religion. As the saying goes, once a Jew, always a Jew.

Sure what he did was terrible, but to start including one extremist's out-of-line desires would be tantamount to blasphemy and as stated in the Wikipedia guidelines to biographies of living people and at the top of this talk page, any such material has no place in an article, nevermind it being POV and perhaps even original research. -Alan 24.184.184.130 (talk) 16:42, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I guess the excommunication is relevant. Does anyone know if this is common for Jewish fraudsters? For example, did Andrew Fastow (CFO of Enron) and Marc Rich get excommunicated?Ndriley97 (talk) 00:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Jew

Why are you people trying to hide the fact that he's a Jew? Don't tell me you believe it's irrelevant or smth like that. Charles Ponzi's Italian descent is all over the place in his article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.120.253.157 (talk) 19:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

See my comments above. Please refrain from speaking in a non-constructive fashion. Feketekave (talk) 01:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Your attempt to rationalize things the way you do isn't convincing. A lot of people will want to know some basic things about the man (either from the categories at the bottom or the factbox on the right) and ethnicity, occupation, place of birth are clearly relevant, just as they are for any other person of some importance. Removing him from the relevant categories is clearly an attempt to hide his ethnicity and your arguments are not going to convince me or a lot of other people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.120.253.157 (talk) 07:42, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

A classification by descent isn't a fact about him - it's a fact about you.

At the same time, his *acting* in an "ethnic" way - belonging to ethnically constituted clubs, being involved in ethnic matters - is relevant to his life and career, in that he managed to use that to con. I have made no attempt to hide that. Feketekave (talk) 11:33, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, the same absurd accusation about "hiding" has been made by other people - whose motivations are possibly not the same as yours - when myself or others have opposed categorising individuals who are famous for their contributions, as opposed to damage caused. Feketekave (talk) 11:36, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I think ethnicity helps define an individual, for better or worse. I would never oppose categorising Jews or any other people based on ethnicity who have positive merits. You're jumping to conclusions by assuming I'm an anti-semite. All I said was that it's relevant and should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.120.253.157 (talk) 18:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Is it ethinicity or just poor greed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BlkBeard (talk • contribs) 06:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Furtive admirer is repeatedly reverting the article by removing the mention of Madoff's Jewish origin in the "Personal" section despite most Jewish people being rightfully referred to as such in Wikipedia. Removal of factual information is in clear violation of Wikipedia's NPOV rules, even more so when arguments such as [5] and [6] are used. Here are a few similar Wikipedia articles about prominent people of Jewish origin with wording very similar to what is repeatedly removed in the Madoff article :

Albert Einstein : Youth and schooling Albert Einstein was born into a Jewish family in Ulm, in the Kingdom of Württemberg in the German Empire on March 14,

Sigmund Freud : Early life Sigmund Freud was born on 6 May 1856 to Galician Jewish[2] parents in P?íbor (German: Freiberg in Mähren), Moravia, Austrian Empire, now Czech Republic.

Milton Friedman : Early life Friedman was born on July 31, 1912, in Brooklyn, New York, to recent Jewish immigrants from Beregszász in Hungary

Alan Greenspan : biography Greenspan was born in 1926 to a Hungarian Jewish family in the Washington Heights area of New York City.[9]

Karl Marx : biography Karl Heinrich Marx was born in Trier, in the Kingdom of Prussia's Province of the Lower Rhine as the third of his parents' seven children. His father, Heinrich Marx (1777–1838), born Herschel Mordechai, the son of Levy Mordechai (1743-1804) and Eva Lwow (1753-1823), descended from a long line of rabbis but converted to Lutheran Christianity,

Levi Strauss : Levi Strauss, born Löb Strauß (February 26, 1829 – September 26, 1902) was a German-Jewish immigrant to the United States[1]

Why should the wording that's deemed appropriate for these people be considered inappropriate for Madoff ? This is particularly relevant, as his sale technique have been characterized as an affinity fraud. Belonging to the community that is defrauded is a key issue in any affinity fraud. 70.30.244.50 (talk) 23:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I've been watching this page a while, and basically Feketekave has made it a one man mission to erase any mention of race or ethnicity from the article. If you look through his talk page, s/he doesn't believe in categorizing anyone by race or ethnicity regardless of whether people agree a person is of a race or ethnicity. For example, Feketekave has lost in the dispute on Talk:Albert_Einstein, which is a page watched more closely by established users. In the end, it's just about who cares more about this, and some anon arguing with an established account isn't going to get very far. If you go through the talk page archives here, it's clear there's a lot of opposition against removal of ethnic info, but obviously we haven't made it our mission to include this info, so we're not going to spend our lives reverting people like Feketekave and Furtive Admirer. --C S (talk) 00:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Why do you select these bios? Why not Muslims, Catholics, Wasps, Greek Orthodox, etc./ Your motives are tranparent. You are a vandalizer and a harasser. The Personal section remains clean. Go find another religion to write about. Furtive admirer (talk) 02:20, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Furtive Admirer, this is a personal attack and violates wikipedia policy. Please cease all such violations of WP:CIV and WP:NPA. That said,(talk) clearly demonstrates the point. This is a clearly established trend among biographies in wikipedia and follows WP:BOLP standards. As C S mentioned, please see Talk:Albert_Einstein . Bernard Madoff is Jewish. The New York Times confirms this and this meets WP:VERIFIABILITY and WP:SOURCES . See the article here . Further Jewish sources confirm this: Jewish Journal and Haaretz . Moreover, it is even more salient, as (talk) mentioned, due to the affinity fraud committed by Madoff. These articles clearly touch on the point of the effect his actions have had on the Jewish community. It seems that it was removed against consensus formed in the section Talk:Bernard_Madoff#Rabbi_wants_Madoff_excommunicated_for_bringing_shame_on_Jewish_people . I am fixing this now. Magemirlen (talk) 13:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

The consenus in that section appears to refer to this version, where Madoff's Jewish background is mentioned in the 'personal' section, rather than in the intro. Albert Einstein and the other articles mentioned above as examples handle it the same way; none of them refer to the subject as Jewish in the lede. While there may be a consensus to include the information in the article, there isn't one to put it in the lede and it's contrary to the way such information is handled in other similar articles, so I'm reverting that change. -- Vary Talk 15:44, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

According to your logic, you should have added that information into the 'personal section' and not removed it wholesale. I will go ahead and take care of that now. Magemirlen (talk) 16:07, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

You do that. What's with the attitude? -- Vary Talk 16:09, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I don't see what "attitude" you are referring to. Please avoid from making personal attacks such as saying I have an "attitude" as this violates WP:NPA. You made a point about the information being in the wrong section, but instead of moving it, you just erased it. I agreed with your original statement and made the corrective changes. Thanks though for pointing out that the personal section was the more appropriate place for the information. Please feel free to take up the matter in my talk page if you feel the need to address this further. Magemirlen (talk) 16:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

My point is that there's no 'should have' here. I'm under no obligation to move anything anywhere. I did nothing to prevent or discourage you from putting the information you wanted added to the article in the appropriate place. Phrases like 'according to your logic', 'just erased it' and 'removed it wholesale' seem to imply otherwise. That may not have been your intent, but the comment did come across as an accusation. -- Vary Talk 16:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Why isn't Dona Branca's, Nicholas Cosmo's, or Allen Stanford's religion on their page at all? It seems inconsistent and unnecessary to include religion on con artists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.193.222 (talk) 22:12, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see above comments. 1) This has been explained ad nauseam and consensus has been formed (again, see above). 2) This is a standard on BLP pages. Even if it were not, it is specially relevant on this BLP page as numerous sources, that have been documented above and within the article, have commented on the effect the allegations have had on the Jewish community. This is seen as some as alleged affinity fraud. If you feel the need to go add to those pages you mentioned, feel free to do so. 3) You're comment "con artists" is a POV attack on the BLP in question. No allegation has been proven. This violates WP:BLP and has no bearing in this case. Magemirlen (talk) 02:54, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Rewritten? / Cleanup

Seems many parts of this article have been rewritten as of recent. Overall it appears a bit messy and unsuitable for an encyclopedia article. Many other tidbits irrelevant to the case this article covers (Benjamin Button??) seem to be placed throughout this article where they likely don't belong. I'm gonna go ahead and tag for cleanup. If you disagree, let be known here. Mikco (talk) 01:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree, I think it may be necessary to separate the biography from the scandal. The article is getting quite large, and the technical information is making it a difficult read. Wapondaponda (talk) 06:41, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Just a(t) first glance: could not the section Methods... (including the warnings beforehand) become a separate article? Thus like 1. Bm and B. BM operations? Reducing the intro could help too. -DePiep (talk) 00:42, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't even finish reading the article, it's that poorly written at times. I think it needs a Copy-Edit flag rather than just cleanup. It seems to have been written by at least two different people: One who seems to have some idea what they're doing and one who looks like they easily could have failed ninth-grade English class and can't even wikify well. Were there less cleaning up to do, I might pitch in; I'm good at this sort of thing. But, given the size of the article and the amount of work that needs to be done, I'm completely overwhelmed and don't know where to start or finish.

-Alan 24.184.184.130 (talk) 16:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

New pages and links to those will help tighten the article (Cohmad, Fairfield Greenwich Group, Walter Noel, split strike, etc.) Anyone want to start? Furtive admirer (talk) 18:28, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Stylistic complaint on footnote 59

decades. [59] Charitable

I have never seen a footnote alone on the next line. I am not an experienced user of wikipedia but I find it strange. There is no need to respond to this msg and I forgot how to sign my name - sorry in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.33.7 (talk) 02:09, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

It's getting pretty sloppy

Yes the article does need a cleanup.

One paragraph that I took out of the "others involved " section is:

Harry Markopolos has singled out Meaghan Cheung, a branch head of the SEC's New York enforcement division at the time of the 2005 investigation and who quit the SEC September 2008, as the person responsible for the regulator's blunder

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The article is pretty good and I want to save the reference! The statement is justified by the text - but it is buried inside, and I do think it is somewhat unfair as explained further down in the article. But mostly I removed it because "others involved" seems to refer to others involved in the fraud, not to somebody accused of regulating poorly. The quote and the later disclaimer/response by Cheung might very well belong in the article. Just nt in this section. Smallbones (talk) 15:15, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Fairfield Greenwich Group and Cohmad

This company is heavily involved and requires its own page for more depth and clarification. The "Walter Noel" page is someone else. Actually ALL the feeder funds require their own page. The we can link to each. Will someone get it started as I don't want to mess up the format?

thanx. Furtive admirer (talk) 19:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

New pages should be created for Cohmad and Fairfield. Ruth Madoff was named in a Commonwealth of Massachusetts complaint. It will reduce the size of the page. I do not know how to start... any volunteers? Furtive admirer (talk) 16:59, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Dickens on Madoff

This is a little off topic to put in the article, but useful for historical perspective. It's all been done before (though maybe not on quite this scale). From 'Little Dorrit':

"[The news of Financier Merdle's death and exposure] would fall like a thunderbolt upon the multitude he had deluded. Numbers of men in every profession and trade would be blighted by his insolvency; old people who had been in easy circumstances all their lives would have no place of repentance for their trust in him but the workhouse; legions of women and children would have their whole future desolated by the hand of this mighty scoundrel. Every partaker of his magnificent feasts would be seen to have been a sharer in the plunder of innumerable homes; every servile worshipper of riches who had helped to set him on his pedestal, would have done better to worship the Devil point-blank...

...For by that time it was known that the late Mr Merdle's complaint had been simply Forgery and Robbery. He, the uncouth object of such wide-spread adulation, the sitter at great men's feasts, the roc's egg of great ladies' assemblies, the subduer of exclusiveness, the leveller of pride, the patron of patrons, the bargain-driver with a Minister for Lordships of the Circumlocution Office, the recipient of more acknowledgment within some ten or fifteen years, at most, than had been bestowed in England upon all peaceful public benefactors, and upon all the leaders of all the Arts and Sciences, with all their works to testify for them, during two centuries at least--he, the shining wonder, the new constellation to be followed by the wise men bringing gifts... --was simply the greatest Forger and the greatest Thief that ever cheated the gallows."

Perhaps it could be added as a link? What a writer.

And what a crook. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.2.152.124 (talk) 23:34, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Picture

I have not edited this article yet. Just kind of stopping by. But I was wondering what's the deal with the bizarre picture? Was something better not available? Or what's the reason? JBFrenchhorn (talk) 10:30, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I think that is from a properly licensed flicker photo, heroically enhanced, etc. The problem is that there are no public domain, or free licensed photos, only news photos. If you know of a better one and can document its license please upload it! Smallbones (talk) 19:26, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

here is a cleaner picture for to post. http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gENi7j7jpsHXAQTcW2cvVaTKgUYw

i uploaded it here but i don't know what to do next. if it can't be used then just revert this page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bernard_Madoff.jpg i really need some assistance in posting a photo. kindly give me posting instructions for the future on my "talk" page as to what you did to post it on this article main page. thanx.

Furtive admirer (talk) 16:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I do not know of any situation under which that copyrighted image can be used on Wikipedia. Even if the copyright holder gives permission, I don't think we can use it because all Wikipedia content is licensed for redistribution, and any permission to use only on Wikipedia could not be honored.  Frank  |  talk  17:04, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Fair Use is allowed under some circumstances, of which I'm not clear. I've asked for a review at Wikipedia:Non-free_content_review#File:Bernard_Madoff.jpg. Anybody who knows what they are talking about is invited to contribute (Actually in classic Wikipedia tradition, even those who don't know what they are talking about are invited to contribute, but please keep it short!) Smallbones (talk) 17:46, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

I've removed the image. In cases like this, it's far better to have no image than a truly awful one. If a better image can be found in the future, that's great. But there's no requirement that we include a picture and the one that was on this article was abhorrent.

If you disagree with the removal, please discuss below before reverting. Cheers. --MZMcBride (talk) 08:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Madoff isn't any different than Wall Street

Madoff's ponzi scheme used money from new investors to pay earlier investors. Ok, so how is this different from a pension fund? How is this different from Wall Street? In Madoff's system of cashflow, there was input and output, growth, etc. Within his closed and controlled system, the concepts of profit and loss become less rigid and subject to interpretation. Ultimately, in larger economies, since profit for one represents loss for another, there isn't necessarily a "system wide profit", and the overall net effect is zero sum.

Of course, when goods and services being created, generating income profit, it is still just moving money back and forth. New bills aren't created for every transaction, it just changes hands. As such, it's just one guy paying another and feeling happy about it. Trading stocks is largely just moving money from one person to another without any gain or loss in total goods. Therefore, Wall Street is also a ponzi scheme but on a much larger scale, making it look like an open market, but as a whole, it is a closed system, no different from Madoff's scheme.

Madoff was a smart guy. I'm not defending his behavior, but any indictment in Madoff's case should reflect on the stock market at large. Money for nothing in any economy has to work this way, pooling cash from many, concentrating wealth in a few, keeping alot of people happy with small returns, and making people believe that their losses are just bad luck. Aren't we all suckers.

Joe Hanink (talk) 21:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Precisely. In the beginning, people make, grow, find, and do stuff and exchange same. Because of the pragmatics of effecting equivalent value in the exchange embodied in different makings and findings, money arises with the first commodity. The real thing underlying the symbolic form of value never ceases to be the makings and findings but a whole world with many distinct social orders arises all to perpetuate various stupefactions about this fundamental fact, i.e. that there is no such thing as "making money" other than in the sucker sense above, there is only the makings and findings, and the assignment of money valuations by those with the means to do so. The provision of goods and services, the real value symbolically represented in money, is totally obscured by a massive ideology that operates by overloading terms like "economy" and "making money" with assumptions and implications meant to obscure¹ the fundamental fact of what money is. Cases such as Madoff, Stanford whatsits, Enron, etc., etc. simply bring this somewhat into focus for those at some stage of readiness of understanding it.

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¹And dismissed with simple rubrics such as "Wall Street vs. Main Street" and "the real economy" vs. ...? Lycurgus (talk) 15:40, 22 February 2009 (UTC)