Talk:Che Guevara

20,000 Deaths Under Batista?

The figure of 20,000 deaths under Batista seems exaggerated. This website "http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat7.htm#Cuba52" lists several sources, and there seems to be a consensus among the non-partisan ones that 5000 people died on both sides during the civil war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.121.228 (talk) 01:56, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Correct, Castro himself accused Batista of only some hundreds of deaths and the official number published after Castro's victory was 898 (more than half of them guerillas). The "20,000" was invented later. Luis Napoles (talk) 01:28, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

IP 88, first off your "source" (I use this term very loosely) is a self published Wp:SPS personal blog/website by a non-notable individual (Matthew White) where he asks for monetary donations. This site is essentially not much different from a credibility standpoint than a Myspace page or even a user page here on Wikipedia. Per Wp:Reliable, this is not a legitimate source for any claim. Nevertheless, in regards to your statement ... this 'site' (which even acknowledges the 20,000 number was supported in Newsweek Magazine) seems to be addressing the "Civil War" from 1958-1959 and thus 5,000 deaths - whereas the cited 20,000 killed in the article under Batista (sourced to a 2007 Che biography by German historian & author Frank Niess), is presumably the given number of people killed by his regime collectively during his last 7 years in office (1952-1959). Moreover, per Wp:Verify, the Australian Dept. of Foreign Affairs in 1959 (as pointed out in their 'Current Notes on International Affairs'‎ - Page 261) stated that = "Batista had, particularly in the latter part of his term of office, ruled by terror" ... where "as many as 20,000 Cubans had met violent deaths". If you don't prefer an Australian point of view, you could use the 1959 United States Senate Hearings before the Subcommittee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws by the Committee on the Judiciary (digitized online), which noted that = "Batista in Cuba was regarded as the butcher of some 20,000 or 25,000 of its finest youth." This matches the belief 10 years later by the 1969 United States National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence which published a report entitled: 'Violence in America: Historical and Comparative Perspectives: A Report' - where on Page 582 it states that = "It is clear that counterterror became the strategy of the Batista government ... It has been estimated by some that as many as 20,000 civilians were killed."   Redthoreau (talk)RT 07:07, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Luis, that would be incorrect. [1], you are referring to the death total during the 1956-1959 war against the guerrillas - whereas the 20,000 total is in reference to those Cuban citizens killed during Batista's reign from 1952-1959 - the vast majority of whom were not part of any armed resistance under Castro (or even Communist sympathizers), but merely individuals who objected to Batista's dictatorial rule during that time and who fell victim to those employed as part of Batista's internal security apparatus (i.e. BRAC etc). [2] "Invented" I guess is in the eye of the beholder. As I am sure you are aware, many historical events have a death count that is altered over time as more information comes about. However, this 20,000 total has remained consistent in the majority (see Wp:Undue) of sources (not all) from 1959 to the presently cited 2007 biography.

Some published examples of this include:

Bolivia, Press and Revolution 1932-1964‎ - Page 347 .... "Batista had been responsible for perhaps as many as 20,000 deaths"

The Free World Colossus: a Critique of American Foreign Policy in the Cold War‎ - Page 192 - (by current day Conservative and Castro-critic David Horowitz) .... "the 20,000 Cubans who had been killed by the Batista regime"

World Guide: A View from the South‎ - Page 209 - .... "Batista engineered yet another coup, establishing a dictatorial regime which was responsible for the death of 20,000 Cubans"

The Third World in Perspective‎ - Page 344 .... "under Batista at least 20,000 people were put to death"

Invisible Latin America‎ - Page 77 .... "All told, Batista's second dictatorship cost the Cuban people some 20,000 dead"

Conflict, Order, and Peace in the Americas‎ - Page 121 (by the Lyndon B. Johnson School of Public Affairs, hardly a bastion of Marxism) .... "The US-supported Batista regime killed 20,000 Cubans"

Controversy Over Cuba‎ - Page 3 (by the D.C. Committee on National Legislation, hardly Pravda) .... "Some l9,000 to 20,000 Cubans were murdered during Batista’s regime, some were tortured, others bled to death after being castrated"

Then again as author Abbott Joseph Liebling notes in his 1981 book The Press‎ - Page 267: "On the international scene, the 20,000 shootings by Batista got considerably less space than the 700 by Castro"

Lastly Luis, I know from our previous edit conflicts on other articles that you believe Youtube to be a reliable reference for material (although I on principle do not) – thus I would point you to ---> this short clip from the documentary Fidel: The Untold Story and the section of the clip from [1:03-1:09] right after testimony by Wayne Smith (former head of the United States Interests Section in Havana). Note the figure given and terminology used.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 08:11, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Redthoreau, Youtube is not a reliable source and unlike your attack attempts to claim, I have never said anything like that.

You are picking sources which do not study the history, but rely on the figures which were invented in the 1960s.

Here are some papers that studied the subject:

Mario Lazo, Dagger in the Heart : American Policy Failures in Cuba (1968): "total deaths ... not more than 900 on both [sides]".

Hugh Thomas, Cuba, or, the pursuit of freedom (1971, 1988): 1,500-2,000 deaths as a direct consequence of the political crisis, 1952-58, including war.

Gilbert: 2,000 deaths in 6 years of war and punitive actions.

Exploring revolution by Timothy P. Wickham-Crowley, page 63: a thousand

Miguel A. Farria: "Despite the atrocities committed by the Batista regime, no more than 1,000 to 2,000 deaths can be reliably attributed directly to his regime."

Fidel Castro himself talked about a thousand deaths, before the 20,000 was invented. (Timothy P. Wickham-Crowley)

These papers explicity studies how many died, instead of just stating Castro's 20,000 figure at face value.Luis Napoles (talk) 07:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Luis, -[1]- It is curious that you now don't support Youtube when you previously ---> cited Youtube at Civil disobedience (another article you have badly edit-warred on and slanted with your bias) as a legitimate reference for a claim regarding one of your pet advocacy projects - Yo No Coopero Con La Dictadura. Both User:MarshalN20 & User:Likeminas has had to remove your insertion of youtube from this article. -[2]- The figures you are citing appear in some cases to be in relation to the civil war between Batista and anti-Batista forces (predominately from 1957-1959 during the period of guerrilla armed conflict). Not in reference to the 7 year period of 1952-1959, in which Batista’s regime is reported in the majority of sources to have murdered 20,000 Cubans. Although, as with any historical regime the death totals differ (Mao can be anywhere from 5-70 million, Stalin 2-20 million etc), the most commonly accepted number for Batista is 20,000, which is our threshold for inclusion. -[3]- You seem not to understand that Wikipedia is for regurgitation, not creation. For example, if you were hypothetically able to successfully plant a lie in 80 % of the news media, published academic literature, and peer reviewed sources ... then wikipedia would echo your lie irregardless if it were actually true. We are not here to determine historical validity (that would be Wp:OR), we are here to rely on the research of others - hence if they are 'duped' by "invented" facts as you put it, then we still report the invented evidence until the majority of reliable sources correct the record and retract the formerly accepted facts. -[4]- Additionally, your sources are not "papers", they are books just as mine are. Are there sources which report a death total of 2,000 instead of 20,000? sure. But per Wp:Undue, the question becomes - what do the majority of them state? I believe the answer to that is 20,000 casualties and you have yet to provide ample evidence to call the above 20,000 citations into question or display that it is not the commonly reported figure.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 10:40, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Since when does Wikipedia have a rule requiring that only the majority opinion shall be referenced in articles? If there are reliable sources with contrarian conclusions, it is perfectly acceptable to include these in Wikipedia provided that language be used to qualify the fact that they are in fact not in line with the status quo. -- itistoday (Talk) 16:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Opening length

I could be wrong, but the opening seems to me to be too long. The third paragraph, in particular, would not be hurt by some trimming. Thoughts? - Waidawut (talk) 14:42, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Hello Waidawut, nice to meet you. The Wp:lead has the recommended number of paragraphs (4), however I would agree with your contention that the 3rd paragraph could be shortened somewhat. The problem I believe is that as time goes on, editors insert a notable moment of Guevara's life (which involved an array of historically significant moments) to the third paragraph which is sort of the de-facto "career" paragraph in the lead. I can propose a shortened version of paragraph 3 for you here if you would like, to see if we can reach agreement on a sensible way to summarize its content. Just let me know.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 09:26, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

As Redthoreau noted, length of the lead is in line with WP:Lead. However, paragraphs are of very unequal length so that is prehaps something that might be addressed with little reorganization. -- Vision Thing -- 12:44, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Full Name of Ernesto Guevara

Resolved

I haven't looked up a source for his full name, but isn't his full name (which I haven't seen at the start of the article where it should say) Erneste Rafael "Che" Guevara de La Serna? (I know it's long - and picky - but I felt it should be included) Yours sincerely - Phanax —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.167.26.215 (talk) 19:01, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Phanax (ip 85), although several sources identify Guevara with both his Mother's surname "de la Serna" and his Father's surname "Lynch", his legal name was solely Ernesto Guevara. This matter has been discussed previously here ---> Talk:Che Guevara/Archive 17#Wrong name with a provided document showing his legal name.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 14:09, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I believe WP:Naming conventions (people) focusses on the most common name, not the legal name. Although it may not be explicit in WP:LEAD, I believe that the first sentence of Wikipedia articles often mentions several names for things when there is more than one commonly-used name; for example, see People's Republic of China, which mentions "China" as an alternative in the first sentence. I conditionally support including "de la Serna" in the first sentence somehow: either as it currently is, or some variant such as "Ernesto Guevara, "Che", or Ernesto Guevara de la Serna". I don't think "Che" is his legal name, but it's there; how can it be included, yet exclude "de la Serna" on the grounds that it isn't a legal name? I don't know how many sources use the "de la Serna" name. If not many, then perhaps it doesn't belong in the first sentence. It could be mentioned later in the article that he was sometimes identified with his mother's name, or not mentioned at all if it's not sufficiently prominent in the sources. Note the objection I raised in the discussion linked to be Redthoreau, based on the mention of the name "Serna" in connection with a soccer nickname. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Coppertwig, I can see the value of both sides on this issue. For instance biographer Jon Lee Anderson introduces him as "Ernesto Guevara de la Serna" in Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life. However, in other Che biographies it is noted that Che in adolescence would refer to himself as "Ernesto Guevara Lynch" (his father's surname). At one time the article here led with Ernesto Guevara de la Serna Lynch (both parents’ surnames) but that was then revised when the editor of the Spanish language article provided us with a copy of his birth certificate showing solely "Ernesto Guevara". I think the best option would probably to use Ernesto 'Che' Guevara" or merely "Ernesto Guevara" to begin the article. Currently it lists the names of "de la Serna" and "Lynch" in the beginning of the first section, but possibly a sentence could be added noting that because of this his name has been juxtapositioned with both surnames? What do you and others think?   Redthoreau (talk)RT 19:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The "butcher of la cabana"

Resolved

There needs to be a mention of the title he has gained by some as "the butcher of la cabana". Faro0485 (talk) 13:31, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Faro0485, please read more carefully or utilize the (Ctrl + F) option to do a key word search in the article. Had you done so you would have seen that this in fact is mentioned in the article presently. It states in the relevant 'Legacy' section: "Guevara remains a hated figure amongst many in the Cuban exile community, who view him with animosity as 'the butcher of La Cabaña'."   Redthoreau (talk)RT 14:09, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I did do a search, it didn't come up. Faro0485 (talk) 21:33, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Faro0485, it comes up if you use the correct n = ñ, or you can simply type in the word "butcher".   Redthoreau (talk)RT 06:45, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I think he was asking it to be more prominent (in the title or intro) as a large subpopulation of Cuba views him in that way. Certainly it doesn't belong in the title, but perhaps more in the intro instead of buried half way through the article.Gtadoc (talk) 02:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Gtadoc, the wording Faro used was "a mention", not a more prominent one (+ it would probably be best to let him/her speak for themselves). Moreover, it would be Wp:Undue to begin the article with the term, as 95 % of all biographies of the subject don't even include any mention of this epithet. You would be hard pressed to find any Wikipedia article about a polarizing political figure that opens up with the chosen moniker of his or her ideological foes. However, it has tangential relevance to his current legacy among a subsection of the population and is thus mentioned in that appropriate section.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 06:45, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Redthroreau Actually, critical information is in the intro in many wiki articles; while I don't claim that "butcher" would be best in the intro, it does read a bit flowery. And since you are wikiquoting, here is one for you: [[1]]. Gtadoc (talk) 17:22, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Gtadoc, of course "critical information" can be acceptable in many circumstances. In the current intro for instance it states that Guevara was a "ruthless disciplinarian who unhesitatingly shot defectors" - which is noted in the major biographies. However, (as a random example) I wonder what response an editor would get if they opened up a thread on the George W. Bush talk page and questioned why it wasn't mentioned that many people refer to him as a "war criminal" (especially if it actually did later in the article, which it doesn't), as well as a host of other epithets that would of course be unacceptable for a Wiki intro? Moreover, you can also propose additional negative information with sources so that they can be judged against the overall weight of the cumulative material. As for your "flowery" assessment, the article is supposed to reflect the majority of scholarly and published sources, which in this case you would probably describe as "flowery". Our task here is to reflect that reality, not to “correct” or “revise” it.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 19:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

"Mass executioner" label

I need to bring this edit by AVM (talk · contribs) up for discussion before this escalates into an edit war. I believe putting "mass executioner" label on the lede section violates WP:NPOV, WP:Terrorist, and WP:UNDUE.  Nuβiατεch ^Talk/_contrib 16:47, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

It definitely violates WP:UNDUE if it's placed within the lead. Please see entry on Encyclopedia Britannica to note what a balanced lead should look like[2]. I would also advice user AVM (talk · contribs) against possible WP:CIVIL violations on his edit summaries [3] Likeminas (talk) 18:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with both Nubiatech & Likeminas. AVM has already been reverted on this particular edit 3 times by 3 different editors. Setting aside the fact that AVM (Wp:SOAPBOX) is clearly not interested in the consensus of editors (evidenced by the fact that he/she would disregard the reverts of 3 different people) his/her WP:OR usage of the term "mass executioner" in the lead and as a "profession" violates WP:Undue & WP:NPOV (not to mention it is a hyperbolic term of opinion, not fact). It would be analogous to listing the euphemism "freedom fighter" in the first line, which you actually could source to a number of biographies, but would still be inappropriate from a pov standpoint. Moreover, AVM is trying to link the title of "executioner" to his/her recent edit where he/she unilaterally and without a source named Guevara as an official "executioner". AVM's declaration of "bullshit!" also doesn't do much in the realm of WP:Civility. Lastly, what is clear is that none of the scholarly journals, or major biographies refer to Guevara primarily in such a manner (which would be our threshold for inclusion).   Redthoreau (talk)RT 23:49, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Preliminary Response

Regarding the above very respectable commentary by the also very respectable editor Redthoreau, I feel I must affix this preliminary response, as for the upcoming weeks I won't be able to build a properly documented reply.

First. You say that I 'unilaterally and without a source named Guevara as an official "executioner".' Not true, I did supply a reference from a reliable source (Behind Che Guevara’s mask, the cold executioner Times Online (from The Sunday Times) September 16, 2007) that I later displaced downward. Yes, I am clearly not interested in the consensus of blatant leftist editors who regard Ernesto "Che" Guevara as their personal hero, or idol, or totem, who believe he should be thought of as an exemplary human being. If user Nubiatech feels offended by the word 'bullshit', I may also feel offended when he/she childishly calls 'POV' my qualification of mass executioner, which by the way is an historical fact, as many sources prove, and which should be familiar terrain to Redthoreau. With all due respect, when he states that "...none of the scholarly journals, or major biographies refer to Guevara primarily in such a manner", one wonders if he has gone through the immense mass of documentation available, for example, from Cuban exiles? The qualification to use should be mass murderer, which is what Guevara was, instead of the milder executioner. To display respect or deference toward an overt criminal is not only unjustifiable, it is plain hypocrisy.

Second, the WP:NPOV guideline states:

• "Balance
• Neutrality weights viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, the core of the neutral point of view policy is to let competing approaches exist on the same page: work for balance, that is: describe the opposing viewpoints according to reputability of the sources, and give precedence to those sources that have been the most successful in presenting facts in an equally balanced manner.", etc.

Let's briefly examine what the lead section states about "El Che", to see if all viewpoints are represented:

• he was an Argentine Marxist revolutionary, (sounds respectable enough, perhaps chic, even classy)
• (he was a) politician, (respectable enough)
• (he was an) author, (sounds very respectable)
• (he was a) physician, (very respectable indeed)
• (he was a) military theorist, (respectable enough)
• (he was a) guerrilla leader. (respectable for some)

It should be obvious that there is no balance at all in the above qualifications; they all depict a character who ought to attract admiration, to say the least, hiding the "insignificant" fact that he was a three-hundred-fold manslayer, even calling POV a reference to it. This is the logical consequence of the diligence with which leftist editors quickly delete anything that might mar their hero's image, and even cry foul (like Nubiatech above) when anyone doesn't abide by their rules. This user even writes "POV (not a fact) mentioned with due weight elsewhere on the article" in his reverting edit summary. Question: if it already is mentioned elsewhere, why it's not considered 'POV' there, while within the lead section it is? The marrow of the discussion is that we are not talking of viewpoints here, we are talking about facts.

Third. I've been following the WP:Ignore all rules rule, mentioned by Redthoreau in a prominent location in his user page, toward the objective of having Wikipedia tell the truth, which doesn't appear to be among the most important objectives or goals of this Encyclopedia (if it is, I'd appreciate anyone's help and tell me about it). I will come back, promise. Regards, --AVM (talk) 18:52, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

AVM, I’ve been around this article long enough to realize the potential futility in debating these issues with an impassioned individual whose personal hatred for Guevara, Fidel Castro, the Cuban Revolution etc (probably justified) leads them to embark on a near vendetta – and who will merely toss aside all contrary evidence that sways from their accepted or experienced narrative. Your past modus operandi of dismissing those you self-diagnose as "leftist editors" or "leftists" who "deny history", doesn’t allow much room for debate nor intellectual corroboration towards a mutual understanding. You yourself have previously lamented in reference to the WP:NPOV rules that they "protect bastards from being called bastards" which unfortunately for someone with your personal views on these matters - is exactly what WP:NPOV does. In the aforementioned instance you referred to Fidel Castro as a "criminal, murderer, ruthless dictator, liar, thief, and rotten bastard." Now I would support your right to hold these views personally, but such language would not be an appropriate introduction for a neutral encyclopedia article. That is not a "leftist" conspiracy, but rather a fundamental policy of Wikipedia. Now I can even empathize with your situation as you have described yourself or the views you hold as being those of = "a Cuban expatriate who lived in Cuba at the time of the Cuban revolution, suffered the horrors of the communist dictatorship that Castro implanted, lost relatives at the firing squad, and lost all his property upon leaving his homeland for good." Nonetheless, your personal experiences however tragic, are not only WP:OR, but irrelevant to constructing a neutral encyclopedia based on WP:Verify, WP:Reliable, WP:Weight - (this would be just as true for the family member of a 9/11 victim that wanted to edit Bin Laden’s article with how they truly feel about him as well). Now AVM, as to the specific allegations of your response:

-[1]- The "unilateral naming" that I was referring to, was in reference to your post on the List of executioners article, where you listed Guevara as an "official" executioner without providing a source.

-[2]- As for the Times Online article that you included in this article, I approved of its inclusion in the relevant Legacy section per appropriate weight. It would be ideal to utilize the actual book that the article is in reference to, but the article will do in light of not having the primary source.

-[3]- Nobody here has declared Guevara their "hero", "idol", or "totem" ... please do not confuse following Wikipedia policy with relation to weight, as hagiographic hero worship. We are here to reflect the majority of reliable sources, regardless of what they mirror.

-[4]- You have declared Guevara a "mass executioner" and described this as an indisputable "historical fact". However, this moniker is disputed and not found in the majority of sources. It is indisputable that Guevara personally shot individuals during wartime and a "revolution". Anderson notes several (around 10) documented examples of men who were shot personally by Guevara or on his command for a number of "crimes" in the Sierra including desertion, stealing rations, raping a peasant, being an informer (chivato) etc. Anderson also notes the 55 executions at La Cabana carried out in instances where Guevara had the final appellate say on whether to suspend or lessen the death sentences handed down by the revolutionary tribunals. As not to drag this response on forever, I will point you to a previous archived discussion ---> Talk:Che Guevara/Archive 19#La Cabaña & Executions. With all that said "mass executioner" is a judgment call and matter of opinion. For starters who defines "mass", more than one? Also "executioner" is a weighted term for the first line of an article. Is a U.S. Governor who refuses to commute a death sentence an "executioner"? What about a soldier who shoots deserters close range during war time? Or someone who orders others to shoot people, but doesn't do the "executing"? However, the article does note that Guevara "unhesitatingly shot defectors" "executed" individuals, and that certain people consider him an "ruthless executioner", "butcher" – these are all acceptable in the article, but not as a declarative statement in the opening remarks. For example, President Harry Truman ordered the nuclear incineration of 150,000 + Japanese. But it would be POV to open up his article by describing him as a "mass executioner", because none of the major sources do. Yet one can still mention in his article the facts surrounding the dropping of the atomic bomb, or mention how some consider that a "war crime". To press the issue, you seem to be taking a "fact" and wanting it automatically in the first line irregardless of weight. Example: George Washington owned slaves (this is a fact), but starting off his article with = "Washington was the First President of the United States and a large slave holder" would be WP:POV. No Encyclopedia would begin his entry that way, just like no other online Encyclopedias would begin an entry about Guevara with describing him primarily as a "mass executioner". Likeminas has provided the Britannica link above if interested for comparison.

[5] As for your issue with "respectable" terms, they are merely neutral ones that don’t lay judgment (see WP:Words to avoid). You view them as overly positive, because your personal view of Guevara is highly negative to begin with, and we’ve seen above how you would like Fidel Castro to be described. Of note a POV way to describe Guevara (which would be inappropriate and the paradoxically opposite of your own view) would be to say "Che Guevara was an Argentine brave freedom fighter, liberator of the poor, hero to those who strive for justice everywhere, and prophet against the brutality of Capitalism." Now of course such an introduction for an Encyclopedia would be absurd, but I am sure that if this article was the work of those who as you said view Che as their "totem", that is how it would read.

[6] To conclude AVM, and I apologize for the length, the article presently mentions an array of unsavory aspects about Guevara, including that he executed people and shot them without hesitation. The issue seems to be your desire to describe him as a "mass executioner" in the opening of the lead, which has been unanimously rejected thus far in the past and present based on Wiki policy and the overall weight of material on the subject.   Redthoreau (talk)RT 09:50, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

AVM, regarding your statement above:

"If user Nubiatech feels offended by the word 'bullshit', I may also feel offended when he/she childishly calls 'POV' my qualification of mass executioner,[...]"

I want to bring to your attention the "No personal attacks" policy, which clearly urges: "Comment on content not on the contributor". Describing my edits as you did above is clear violation of that policy. Keep in mind that:

• I did not make any reference to your edit summary, neither did I express any offense taken on my part.
• Tagging an edit as POV is not a personal attack, per the policy above.
• In my previous 3 edits dealing with this article so far (2 reverts, and this talk section above) I never mentioned, critiqued, idolized, attributed, asserted, stipulated, deified, vilified, glorified, or touched the subject of the article or contributed a single word to the contents of the article.
• All I am talking about so far are WP:NPOV, WP:TERRORIST, and WP:UNDUE; and I'd rather the discussion stays on topic and not get personal.

 Nuβiατεch ^Talk/_contrib 11:54, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

"Spanish and Basque descendent"

In the article it is said that: "Ernesto Guevara was born to Celia de la Serna and Ernesto Guevara Lynch on June 14, 1928[1] in Rosario, Argentina, the eldest of five children in a family of Spanish, Basque and Irish descent."

I think it is redundant to say that is Spanish and Basque descendent, since the Basque country is a "Comunidad Autonoma" inside Spain. With only one of the terms (Spanish/Basque) would be clearer. Furthermore, the source of the reference [15] is not given, so his basque ascendency is not demonstrated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.117.145.84 (talk) 10:50, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

IP 163, your post raises several issues. [1] Your average Basque citizen of Euskal Herria would not describe themselves or view themselves as "Spanish" (not to mention that the Basque country extends into France). [2] The utilized ref points out that:

"Che's last name "Guevara" derives from the Castilianized form of the Basque "Gebara", a habitational name from the province of Álava."

Thus Che's primary last name (Guevara) is Basque, his father's second last name (Lynch) is Irish and his mother's last name (de la Serna) is Spanish. Hence he is described as being of Spanish, Basque, and Irish descent. [3] Is it your contention that “Basque” does not merit a separate distinction from Spanish, or are you disputing the fact that Guevara has any Basque ancestry? (a point acknowledged by Che's father himself)   Redthoreau (talk)RT 23:24, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, keep both in; and I like your explanation.Allgoodnamesalreadytaken (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC).

Regarding lack of inquiries or trials

Hey. Thanks for taking part in this discussion to see if consensus has changed.
My issue with this article is the apparent lack of critical reporting of the subject. Through my own college education, I've learned that Guevara was a controversial figure, often either a recipient of positive propaganda or a victim of negative propaganda. This article barely touches on it, other than to say he was controversial (at the bottom of the article), which may give readers the impression that he was either infallible or universally accepted (except, of course, to those he was directly in opposition with). History is still very undecided as to whether he was a true revolutionary or someone who latched on to a movement that promised him authority and/or notoriety.
The source material I included indicated that his execution victims rarely saw inquiries, much less trials, and were often executed for the mere appearance of impropriety, or lack of confidence, by Guevara or his seniors. The article is clear this occurred during his Cuban period, so I felt it most relevant to put the statement in there. As I intend to start developing some of the counter-balancing facts that are only suggested at in the article's current conclusion, I thought this was a good way to unbiasly (<--is that a word?) introduce aspects of his historical character that are not yet represented in the article.
I'd like to see what the consensus is, so, while I look forward to your POV, I'd prefer we wait and remove my statement only after we've given others some time to weigh in here with a consensus that this knowledge is not relevant in the article about Guevara. Your consideration on this matter is appreciated. Thank you. --LeyteWolfer (talk) 04:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC)