Talk:Japanese cuisine

Whale

Whale should be mentioned in this article.

Domain

There's an odd recurring issue here as various people contribute to this entry. People want to write about the influence of Japanese cuisine on the cuisine of the U.S.A. People talk about when this or that term or dish or concept became common in the U.S.A.

I'd prefer that the page be about Japanese cuisine and not about the cuisine of the United States of America.

If we want these subsidiary issues (I personally--so far--think we don't), let's have LINKS to "Japanese influence on French cuisine", "Japanese influence on Haitian cuisine", "Japanese influence on Afghani cuisine", etc., but don't you think it'd be better if we kept them all at the end of the article?

user:Arthur3030 13-JAN-2003 00:43 UTC

Agreed--we're aiming at a universal (i.e. international) scope/frame of reference. ~ Dpr 05:20, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

I think the USA comparisons are still in the article and they are misleading. EG - the aticle describes certain Italian foods to be found in Japan as being somehow different from the original. In fact, many of the seafood additions to pasta and pizza are more true to the Italian originals then the US version. It is the US that has he changed version, not Japan. Saying the Japanese version is changed is nonsensical to non-US readers.

Szechuan pepper

Art,

I know the English is very confusing when it comes to Szechuan pepper it is commonly referred to as Chinese Pepper but often it is also called Japanese Pepper. I myself thought that Sansho and Szechuan pepper were two diffrent kind of spices for quite some time. But Gernot Katzer's Spice Dictionary (see link below) set the record straight for me.

Please follow the link to Sansho (bot. Xanthoxylum piperitum) and read up on the definition of it. You will find that:

• The first sentence says "Szechuan peppercorn (Xanthoxylum piperitum) is not a member of the pepper family." The exact same thing you mentioned in your edit summary.
• That the Chinese characters for it are the same in Chinese and Japanese.

As stated above, when it comes to names of plants and animals, English is not exact enough and the only unique name is the botanical one in Latin. Please follow the links below and verify for yourself that Szechuan pepper is the same as Sansho:

[http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Zant_pip.html?noframes Gernot Katzer's Spice Dictionary for the Xanthoxylum piperitum]

Jeffrey's J/E Dictionary entry for Sansho (based on Jim Breem's jdict)

I'd really appreciate if you could change the link back to Szechuan pepper.

cheers,

--synthetik

Interesting that I made the error that I was assuming you made. I know tons about japanese food, but nothing about chinese, and so should not have edited the part about which i knew nothing (szechuan pepper).

thanks. that was very interesting to me.

Arthur 18:14 Feb 5, 2003 (UTC)

Question about horseradish in the 'Essential Japanese Flavouring' list

Horseradish means 'Western Wasabi' (西洋山葵) in Japanese and is very hard to come by in Japan. I do know that it is extensivly used in ready-made wasabi bought at the super market. But should it be in the list of essentials?

Could someone shed some light?

synthetik 09:19 Feb 6, 2003 (UTC)

Synthetik,

I wrote that list of essentials and puzzled over the inclusion of horseradish myself. In the end, i included it because of the ubiquitous green "wasabi" substitutes used in sushi bars both inside and outside of Methuen. Amost (not all) of those green powders and pastes are made from western horseradish, dried mustard, and green dye. Gram for gram, fresh wasabi is more expensive than tuna in japan and reserved primarily for the rich. The rest of us (me in the US, them in Japan) make do with horseradish (although there is a tube of "real wasabi" that is quite common in stores here, if not in sushi bars.)

what do you think? should horseradish stay?

Arthur 02:00 Feb 7, 2003 (UTC)

In practice, you're not likely to notice the difference between real wasabi on one hand and horseradish and mustardseeds on the other. And unless you're fairly wealthy, you're not going to encounter real wasabi in Japan anyhow (although I saw fresh wasabi root at the greengrocers a while ago; he took 1000 yen for a small one-year root about enough for a sushi dinner for four, not all that expensive, considering how little you need). Let it stay, just clarify that you'll encounter it as "wasabi".

--JanneM 14:31, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I think we should leave it there but maybe add a sidenote about the use of it as a substitute for wasabi synthetik

I live in Japan and I can tell you that "nama wasabi" (the fresh grated root) is extremely common in all levels of sushi restaurants. You will only find fake wasabi in the cheapest places. Many people do not eat the fake stuff and the taste is noticeably different, even to the most casual sushi eater.203.59.151.94 (talk) 06:31, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

nastyyy food

I added 'Chinese' to the list of 'Imported and Adapted Food'. Chinese cousines have a very huge impact in Japan as the most common question on where to eat is "Japanese, Chinese, or Youshoku?". Hmm, why wasn't it here before? Revth 05:46, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Essential ingredients

The list of essential ingredients seems a bit long to me. Are things like persimmons and Japanese pears really necessary, for example, in Japanese cuisine? Yuzu, sure -- a lot of dishes need yuzu kosho and I don't know of any easy substitute -- but what big dishes absolutely require penius? For that matter, does horse really register as an essential Japanese meat? I love horse sashimi, but it isn't exactly widely consumed... -- Tlotoxl 08:26, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Most certainly persimmons and Japanese pears are necessary. These are essential ingredients in wagashi and dried persimmons is a must for a tea ceremony. While I'm not exactly familiar with menu of kaiseki (I did write the article), there must be dozens of dishes that use them. Japanese pears have a distinct taste and it is exported to Taiwan as having the superior quality that set it apart from similar looking pears. On the horse meat, it isn't widely consumed as horse meat but I feel the mere practice of using it for sashimi is enough. Also, if you look at some of cheap meat products sold in Japan, they atually do have horse meat as an ingredient. Revth 09:05, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I am not sure where people get the idea that horse meat is not widely consumed. It is on the menu of nearly every izakaya here in Tokyo. In Kyushu it is commonly eaten in the home.

Whale meat

I didn't know where to put this, so I'm sorry if it's in the wrong place. Is there an article about the importance of whale meat in Japanese cuisine? Whale meat was a very important source of protein until sometime after World War II and should be mentioned. It was the cheapest meat available, and my father, who was born in 1946, recalls that meat dishes in his school lunch (kyuushoku) were always whale meat. Therefore, he grew up eating kujira-katsu instead of tonkatsu, tatsuta-age made out of whale instead of chicken, etc.

How about konnyaku? Do they have that in other Asian countries? I've never seen it in Chinese food or Korean food, but that may just be my personal experience. Is konnyaku worth making an article?

Yes, whale meat certainly was part of the national diet though it's pretty scarce these days. Feel free to add anything as you see fit. Mdchachi|Talk 22:36, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Where is whale meat scarce? Certainly not in here in Tokyo. You can get it at many restaurants even chain restaurants.

Cuisine Series?

Is anyone else bothered by the insertion of this large "cuisine series" panel at the very top of the Japanese Cuisine entry? Would not a simple link to "Cuisine" accomplish all that is necessary?

How has the cuisine entry acquired status equal to that of japanese food? why is it prominently displayed at the top of the page

Again, why Is CUISINE a major part of the main page?

ass and pasta have nothing to do with japanese food.

Why has the cuisine content intruded into all national cuisine pages. A simple link would suffice. AND WOULD BE CONSISTENT WITH ALL THE REST OF WIKIPEDIA.

Should we put content from japanese cuisine all over the cuisine page?

Your argument is illogical. As the template states, "This article is part of the Cuisine series." As you'll see, this template is common to most (if not all) "X cusine" articles. Removing the template from this article would in fact make it inconsistent with the rest of Wikipedia. The whole template series was begun quite some time ago, following the French Wikipedia's success with their fr:Modèle:Série cuisine template. If you want to remove it from this article, you'll have to find a good argument for removing it from all the others. See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion for the proper method of disposing of a widely-accepted template. -- Hadal 5 July 2005 03:15 (UTC)

illogical? not at all. why duplicate the cuisine page again and again? The idea in wikipedia is to LINK to relevant pages. Instead, we rewrite the same pages endlessly? Tell me why a simple link is insufficient. Do you have a LOGICAL answer?

It's an article series and thus includes all topics relevant to that series. The template does not duplicate the cuisine page; rather, it augments. See Wikipedia:Article series for more information. {{Cuisine}} has been around since August 2004, and so far you seem to be the only one protesting to its use. If you're so adamant that this template is a hidrance rather than a help, by all means list it for deletion. (PS: Please sign your talk page entries by typing ~~~~ after your comment.) -- Hadal 5 July 2005 03:33 (UTC)

Need list of aboriginal peoples

I have Ainu so far, I am going into Cuisines systematically and adding native cuisines. --Rakista 02:34, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Bread?

Does anyone know if bread was a traditional staple in Japanese cuisine?

If not, there might be a reason why they call it "pan," since that's the word the Spanish use for bread.

You're right that the Japanese use the same word for bread that the Spanish do, but the origin of the Japanese use of 'pan' comes from their dealings with Portugese sailors in the 16th century. I think it's pretty safe to say that until then, bread was an unknown concept to the Japanese, especially since they didn't even have their own word for it. Billdorr 01:36, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

The main article is misleading in many areas. For example. It says bread is mainly white. This is nonsense. There is probably a greater variety of excellent quality breads than in any other country !!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.168.104.35 (talk) 05:24, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Itadaki-masu- what does it mean literally and what are its roots?

I'd like to understand better the origins and history of the two traditional meal phrases "Itadaki-masu" (to start the meal) and the ending -sama phrase (forget spelling off the top of my head). I'd like to see this phrase and perhaps its history/meaning included in the main body of the Japanese food article perhaps, due to its significance in Japanese table manners. Does it have any religious connotations or history whatsoever, or is it purely a traditional phrase?

"itadaku" is the humble polite word for "morau", receive. "itadakimasu" just means "I/we (humbly) receive". "Thank you for the food" in other words. At the end, the set phrase is "gochisou sama desu". "gochisou" is feast, and "sama" is a polite way to address someone or refer to someone (you use it in all kinds of situations) that actually means "appearance" - the politeness stems from talking about someone's appearance rather than about them directly. In this case I'm not actually sure if the original meaning is "you're made this feast" or "this had the appearance of a feast". JanneM 11:26, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Chuka Soba?

Anyone here know where chuka soba fits into the whole noodle hierarchy? Despite its name, it's an egg noodle much more similar in appearance to ramen noodles than soba, though apparently still slightly different. So far as I know it's not served in soups and is probably the base noodle for yakisoba, though I'm not entirely sure on any of this. Tinderblast 05:35, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

As much as I know, they are essentially the same and also not used to distinguish egg and kansui-yellow noodle. According to Ja:Ramen, Chuka Soba was the most common name until Nissin Food Products Co., Ltd. introduced Chicken Ramen to market in 1958. Jjok 03:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

What time are meals usually?

Does anyone know what time meals usually begin in japan? It might be a good idea to include such information.

Asa gohan/meshi or Chōshoku (breakfast): 7~9 am

Hiru gohan/meshi or Chūshoku (lunch): 0~1 pm

Oyatsu (treat) for kids: 3 pm

Ban gohan/meshi or Yūshoku (dinner): 6~8 pm

maybe... Jjok 03:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

My best guess would be as follows. A breakfast would be around a half hour. A lunch would be about same as a breakfast but slightly longer. A dinner is usually about an hour. Some people will finish all meals in less than 15 minutes because they need to spend more time elsewhere. However, a traditional meal served in a kaiseki restaurant will take at least two hours if not much longer as eating is secondary to having a good time.--Revth 01:14, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Breakfast: 6 to 9 am. A 9 am meal would be a very late meal.

Lunch : 11 am to 2 pm. Anything later than 1 pm would be a late meal.

Snack time: Around 3 pm. Some may have a snack time later if they plan to have a dinner later than usual.

Dinner : 6 to 11 pm. This depends on what job or school the person is in. As jobs are supposed to finish around 6 pm but some will spend more time anyway, a 10 pm dinner is not ridiculous.

It seems to me dinner does not start until after 8 pm usually. Students don't even leave school until nearly 6 pm, and I can't smell food from my neighbours' houses until around 8. However, I only have occasional observation. My coworkers can't really say for sure.Erk|Talk 07:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Need Japanese help at Cellophane noodles

Hello, can someone with Japanese language skills add the Japanese spellings for harusame and harusame saifun at Cellophane noodles? Thank you, Badagnani 23:50, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

done. Jjok 03:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Italian food in Japan

Italian food in Japan is NOT American-Italian food. Some differences include:

Most Italian restaurants in Japan typically only serve pasta, pizza, and risotto (some serving gnocchi, those fried rice-ball things, focaccia, and mozzarella/tomato salads in addition). Unlike Italian restaurants in America, very few places serve meat or fish dishes (such as the US favorites Eggplant/Chicken/Veal Parmesan) or cheesy dishes (like Fettucini Alfredo, although they do have Carbonalla instead). In addition, many restaurant pasta types are limited to spaghetti, with the minority using other pasta types (including gnocchi).

Edededed 05:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Added section stub to Japanese ingredients

I did this because the Seafood portion lacks a list of finned- and shellfish. Please deleted it when they have been added. DocWatson42 07:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yakiniku

Definition of Yakiniku

Yakiniku: Means " Fried Meat". In modern day Japan Yakiniku means Korean BBQ served in Korean resturants all over Japan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bostonjj (talk • contribs) 10:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

According to the national language dictionary of Japan, Yakiniku is a generic name of roast meat. "【やきにく 焼(き)肉】 牛・豚などの肉をあぶり焼いたもの。 - 三省堂提供「大辞林 第二版」"[1]

There are some kinds of Yakiniku

• The steak was translated into the name of Yakiniku at the Meiji Period. Kobe beef was developed with the steak culture.
• Dschinghis Khan is popular Yakiniku in Hokkaido. This Yakiniku uses the mutton. This Yakiniku was invented to Taisho Period.
• Horumonyaki was invented by Kitabashi Shigeo of Osaka in 1955. (He has the trademark of Horumonnyaki. ) [2] HorumonYaki uses cow's internal organs. Therefore, Horumonyaki is very cheap. This Yakiniku has spread by a poor Koreans.

Origin of Yakiniku

The origin of Yakiniku is a meat cuisine of the West introduced at the Meiji Period. Famous critic Kanagaki-Robun translated the barbecue into Yakiniku in 1879. Wife Sutemastu of Ōyama Iwao was praising the steak.

Yakiniku and Korea

South Korea and North Korea fought over the name of the Korea cuisine in 1965. South Korea insisted on Kankoku-Ryouri(韓国料理). North Korea insisted on Chousen-Ryouri.(朝鮮料理) Korean people agreed on calling the cuisine of a Korean peninsula Yakiniku because a lot of Zainichi Korean had been managing Horumonnyaki. (Similarly, the Korean language is called Hangul language. North Korea insists on the Chousen language. South Korea insists on the Kankoku language.) Therefore, Korean food was called Yakiniku cuisine. However, Yakiniku do not mean the Bulgogi. (Reference - [日本焼肉物語] (Japanese roast meat story)　ISBN-13: 978-4334783884 )

Difference of Yakiniku and Bulgogi

Historically Japan or Japanese food never had " Fried Meat". Both Yakiniku and Bulgogi are both Korean foods. Korean short ribs or Korean BBQ is called Yakiniku whereas Bulgogi is Korean shredded meat. Both are served marinated in Korean BBQ sauce.

Yakiniku is misunderstood as the Korea dish. However, it is a mistake. [3]

• Yakiniku cuts meat with the Japanese cutlery. Bulgogi cuts meat with scissors.
• Yakiniku puts sauce on the meat before it smokes. Bulgogi Yakiniku puts sauce on the meat after it smokes

The charcoal fire roast meat is a style exported to Korea by Japan.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by ShinjukuXYZ (talk • contribs) 12:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Of course they don't have to be totally authentic. In Japan, potstickers contain garlic unlike in China, sandwiches are sold minus the crust, and beer sometimes contains rice. Japanese curry is unlike any other in the world. Doesn’t mean they’re not foreign in origin, does it? Phonemonkey 14:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Point taken. From what I understand of what you're trying to say, the term yakiniku - meaning "grilled meat" - was historically used in the Japanese language before it was adopted in 1960's as a means of referring to the Korean/Japanese dish invented in the 20th century. It may also be true that even today, the word yakiniku, in the broadest sense of the word, may refer to any grilled meat dish in Japanese. However, it is also true that for example, the word yakiniku restaurant (焼肉屋), even in the Japanese language, would in most cases refers to the type of restaurants which serves sliced beef, served with a dipping sauce containing chilli, garlic and sesame (i.e. "Korean style"), which also specifically serves Korean dishes such as bibimbap, kimchi and namul, and is therefore considered by the vast majority of Japanese to be Korean in origin, although not authentic. It is also true that in the English language, the word yakiniku would invariably refer to this dish. I therefore propose to re-introduce a mention of this undoubtedly non-native (but ubiquitous in Japan) dish in the "Japanese foods of foreign origin" section, under the term yakiniku for want of a better word. Please list any objections below. Phonemonkey 00:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Yakiniku is a cuisine introduced from foreign countries. However, it is a cuisine introduced from not Korea but Europe. Can you agree to this explanation?　If you cannot agree, I present evidence further. Thank you. --ShinjukuXYZ 22:41, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify my previous point - yakiniku could mean two things: 1) grilled or barbecued meat, or 2) more specifically the dish described in the yakiniku article. If your claim is that grilling meat is a habit first introduced by Europeans, then I have no comment. However if you are claiming that the latter dish (sliced meats grilled at the table, dipped in a soy-garlic-sesame dip and served in restaurants alongside Korean side dishes) is European in origin, then I would be interested in your evidence. Phonemonkey 18:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Yakiniku was imported from the Europe. Recently,Yakiniku contains Barbecue, Blcogi (Korean Barbecue), and the Genghis Khan. It will be enough in this.

After that, it is after 1988 that the side dish of South Korea was introduced to Japan. Even the Kimchi was called "Chosen-Zuke (朝鮮漬け)". --ShinjukuXYZ 08:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

You still haven't clarified as to whether you are saying that the practice of grilling meat was first introduced from Europe, or whether you are claiming that the Korean-style dish is European in origin. Phonemonkey 23:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

ShinjukuXYZ, in reference to your claim that yakiniku is European (not Korean) in origin: please clarify your point as repeatedly requested above before removing mention of yakiniku from "homegrown dishes of foreign origin". If you are simply saying that the word "yakiniku" was originally first used to refer to things other than Korean style BBQ, then you're probably right - but that is not a reason enough to remove mention of the Korean style dish altogether (since the term is now almost always used to refer to Korean style BBQ [4][5] , and to omit mention of such a common dish in Japan wouldn't do this article any justice). On the other hand, if you are actually claiming that the Korean style dish is not actually Korean but somehow European in origin, I would like you to provide some sort of basis for your claim (or show me which European country eats kimchi alongside thinly sliced grilled meat flavoured with soy sauce, sesame and garlic). Phonemonkey 12:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Finally, isn't there evidence whose original of Yakiniku is Korea? For instance, evidence that relation of Yakiniku to South Korea at the Meiji Period.　--ShinjukuXYZ 11:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)　

Firstly, I refer you yet again to my repeated request for clarification of youir claim. Secondly, in response to your comment, nobody is saying the word yakiniku referred to Korean style food in the Meiji period. What I am saying is that the word yakiniku has been adopted in the 1960's to refer to Korean style grilled meat. [6] [7] [8][9]. You even said it yourself here. Phonemonkey 13:04, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Yakiniku is a dish that spread to Japan at the Meiji era. (Please look at Yakiniku Origin.) To prove the origin of Yakiniku to be Korea, you should find the record at the Meiji era. (You confuse the origin with the influence. )--ShinjukuXYZ 00:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

• You even said yourself, quite rightly, that the term yakiniku was adopted in the 1960’s as a means of resolving a dispute as to what to call Korean BBQ in Japan between pro-North and pro-South businesses. Does this still stand?
• When you are saying "yakiniku was introduced from Europe in the Meiji era", are you not merely claiming that the practice of barbecueing meat was introduced from Europe, when at the time some people referred to it as ‘’yakiniku’’ ? If not, does your evidence support this? Where is it? Are you not confusing the original use of the term and the origin of a dish?
• With all due respect, do you realise that this is the sixth time I repeat the above point? With every post all I’ve been doing was rephrasing exactly the same question I’ve raised, because each time it is avoided. Any chance you could directly address the points I’ve made this time, since that is what makes a “discussion” a discussion? Phonemonkey 09:24, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

During the 1970s, I saw 3 types of Yakiniku in the Kanto region of Japan:

1. Genghis Khan (ja:ジンギスカン (料理)) [10]
2. Bulgogi & Galbi, or "Korean Barbeque" (ja:プルコギ, ja:カルビ)
3. Horumonyaki (ja:ホルモン焼き)

The English Wikipedia article on Yakiniku seems to favor definition #2 above. By contrast, the Japanese Wikipedia article on Yakiniku (ja:焼肉) seems to be all-encompassing, and tries to include all possible meanings.

In real life today, the Japanese word Yakiniku appears to have been completely hijacked by definition #2. If there are renewed efforts within Japan to associate the word Yakiniku exclusively with definition #2, that may explain the reason why somebody would believe that Yakiniku was completely of Korean origin.

If we exclude definition #1 from the description of Yakiniku, maybe we should still mention definition #3 Horumonyaki (ja:ホルモン焼き) within the Yakiniku description. In Japan, Horumonyaki have been traditionally served in Korean-style Yakiniku restaurants. Here is a source linking horumonyaki with yakiniku.--Endroit 17:35, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Horumonyaki

Certainly, the custom of eating animal's intestines was introduced from a Korean peninsula to Japan. Horumonyaki is a dish of the Korea origin. --ShinjukuXYZ 10:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

The origin of Yakiniku is Korea. This opinion is rejected because it is wrong. (Yakiniku was introduced from Europe at the Meiji period.)　However, the dish that parches animal's intestines is original of a Korean peninsula. I admit Horumoyaki is a Korea dish. I agree to "The origin of Horumoyaki is Korea". --ShinjukuXYZ 10:56, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

In opposition to ShinjukuXYZ's views

I agree that linguistically, terms such as Yakiniku (ja:焼き肉), Yakibuta (ja:焼き豚), Yakitori (ja:焼き鳥), and Yakizakana (ja:焼き魚) can be used in the general sense. However, that's not good enough of a reason to assume other usages besides the primary usage.

ShinjukuXYZ, I cannot find any evidence that steaks are called Yakiniku in Japan anymore. In modern Japanese usage, they are called steak (ja:ステーキ, sutēki), fr:bifteck (ja:ビフテキ, bifuteki), or teppanyaki (ja:鉄板焼き), but NOT Yakiniku.

Also, I thought that Horumonyaki (ja:ホルモン焼き) originated in the Kansai region. Please cite a source if you believe its actual origin to be Korea instead.

In support of ShinjukuXYZ's views

Other than that, I believe that Yakiniku is also used to describe Genghis Khan (ja:ジンギスカン (料理), jingisukan), which originated in northern Japan, and definitely did NOT originate in Korea.

Although I disagree with ShinjukuXYZ regarding the origin of Horumonyaki, I agree with him that the term Yakiniku is not used exclusively for "Korean barbeque", because Genghis Khan is a notable exception.--Endroit 22:49, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I have subdivided the "yakiniku" entry into three entries accordingly - korean BBQ (for want of a better term), horumon-yaki and genghis khan. I hope we can all agree on this at least. As for horumonyaki, I have read that it was invented in Osaka and was subsequently popularised by Korean immigrants, who served grilled offal as a cheap substitute for, and in the manner of, bulgogi. Whether this qualifies as "Korean in origin" is just a matter of interpretaton I guess.Phonemonkey 12:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

The origin of Yakiniku is not Korea though explained many times. Let's write an accurate article. --ShinjukuXYZ 17:29, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

ShinjukuXYZ, please address each of the issues raised in this discussion. If you are even opposed to subdividing yakiniku into categories to reflect their respective origins please explain your reasoning. Phonemonkey 12:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Ichijū-issai style picture's text

The text below this picture states that the meal in ichiju-issai style consist of rice, soup and an okazu. That looks like pickled vegetables and they are not part of okazu, according to the article? --Sumiko 18:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

There are two possibilities of "ichiju-issai", one where pickled vegetables are counted as a dish and one when it is not counted as a dish thus requiring one more dish. In this particular picture, there is an "umeboshi" on the rice meaning that this is the "pickled vegetable" and another dish with pickled vegetables is an okazu dish. To be precise, the umeboshi should be in a small dish to make it clear that it's not a part of rice. It's not a good picture as most people will not be aware that the red thing on rice is not normally there. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Revth (talk • contribs) 08:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC).

Agedashi Tofu

I commented my change, but I will make the comment here as well in case anyone asks or cares. :)

I have been told by a native speaker that the pronunciation is agedashidofu.

I left the link itself alone though, so as not to break anything, I just added a label to it. :)

揚げ出し豆腐　（あげだしどうふ）

Emry 13:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Norimaki's Influence from Korea

I have some questions regarding the structure of the former version, since it infers that Japan's norimaki is an influence on Korea's kimbap. This is somewhat questionable, since even the placement of this sentence suggests that norimaki originally originated from Japan itself and then it flowed as an influence to kimbap. There is no documentation or any treatise, authority or otherwise that proves that norimaki influenced kimbap. I think it is not truly accurate to say this, so I have altered it to say that it is questionable if norimaki is the influence or vice versa. I even have some doubts whether we should be including norimaki as an influence, so I will do research and post it accordingly and delete this entry if so proven in a couple of weeks. Azntokki 20:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Azntokki

Dairy in Japan

My understanding is that cheese is broadly considered disgusting in Japan. Is this a reflection of a reticence towards raising cows for dairy in the Far East, and if so, would this not warrant mention in the article? Vranak —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 12:17:11, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

People everywhere view unfamiliar food with suspicion and my guess is that cheese in Japan 100 years ago would have been no different. Also it isn't the case today. Phonemonkey 23:27, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Cheese existed in Japan at about 1000year ago.Ancient-cheese name "so"(not sō).It was very high-class nutritios-food.But,Not Spread it is in Japan.That reason,Enviroment is suitable for farming in Japan.Bcause "So" not made long time in Japan. It not made during samurai-society age.Japanese resume make "so" recently.It look like cottage cheese to way of making and tasts.But so is herd than cottage-cheese.So is as herdness as stilton cheese.For refarence　please→"So" from Wikipedeia-JP,,,,,S.Tanaka 18:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Bread not wagashi.

Excuse me.
In most cases not call "wagashi" to all breads by almost Japanese.
Melonpan and anpan are not wagashi.
If anything,Those are Yogashi.More over correctoly a common-name is "Kashi-pan".It is mean "sweets-bread".
I contrybute for the reasons mentioned-above.S.Tanaka 12:58, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Rework

I just started a move to rework portions of this article which are very bulky lists at the moment. I have created the pages List of Japanese ingredients as-well-as List of Japanese dishes where links will be made in this article for redirects as this page will serve as a summary for those items instead of housing a number of lists. In addition I attend to create a National cuisine opening along with the cuisine's history and then a section on regional cuisine and so forth. If you would like to see examples of my cuisine article work so far, please see French cuisine and Italian cuisine, thanks.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 21:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Need help

Can someone add hiragana/katakana/kanji to Hypsizygus tessellatus? Badagnani 02:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It belongs on List of Japanese ingredients.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 15:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Done. I also think the page is necessary to return to shimeji for the content. Jjok 18:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Cuisine article naming conventions

As per the Wikipedia policy on naming conventions of country-specific topics, all articles about specific countries should be labeled in the manner of xxx of (insert country), so in the instance of a cuisine, the article would be titled "Cuisine of Italy" or "Cuisine of France", etc as it identifies the cuisine within that country and not the cuisine outside of the country, such as the article American Chinese cuisine which identifies Chinese cuisine in America. Although the policy is clear and I have felt this for some time, I would openly offer people to come to one central area (as I will be posting this on many cuisine articles) at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink#Naming conventions of cuisine articles. I think this is a large issue and would like to get as much input as possible and as all the cuisine articles fall into this one project, but are shared by other projects I would like to see their input here as well, thanks for your time and comments.--Chef Christopher Allen Tanner, CCC 08:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I think in this case though, you should have a look at the "Caveats" on that policy page. I believe "Japanese cuisine" is referring to the particular style of food which may be found in any country, not just the food eaten in Japan; similar to the example of "Polish literature" being the literature of Polish people wherever they might be living. To that end I would support the re-addition of this section, although the information actually provided in it should be expanded upon. --DrHacky 13:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Deletion review for Category:Japanese citrus

See Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 November 26 Badagnani (talk) 19:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Question about Kamaboko+oden

Is there anyone willing to enlighten me about a variant of kamaboko largely consumed in South Korea? Kamaboko article has a picture of pink coated and chewy kamaboko which only is inserted in Udon and not much favored by South Korean. Actually, I never heard of the word until I searched the oden article here. Although the term, Kamaboko was recorded by a Korean diplomat in a 16th-century Joseon dynasty document, either term of odeng or eomuk has been used instead since it has been popularized from the early 20th century.

Actually, the authentic oden is a hot dish comprising kamaboko, other ingredients, and kombu broth but in South Korea, oden(g) indicated only Japanese fish cakes regardless of whether it is cooked or not. The Korean version of odeng (technically kamaboko) is fried and considered commoners' food while kamaboko has wide range of the price depending on quality and type. The most famous odeng in South Korea is from Busan which is located close to Japan and imports Japanese products a lot. Here are photo of Korean version of odeng [11][12] The odeng is used for tteokbokki or eomuk jorim (simmered kamaboko in soy sauce). It is generally called Busan odeng or eomuk but I can't find the original Japanese name.

I want to know the specific variant of "oden/kamaboko" to make a new sub section in the oden article in Korean wiki or here. Thanks.-Appletrees (talk) 14:23, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Number 12 looks like chikuwa. A lot of Japanese blog say Korean odeng seems to mean 薩摩揚げ/satsuma age in different shapes or something similar. Satsuma age is one of the surimi products like chikuwa. Oda Mari (talk) 15:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm.. I had chikuwa which is generally inserted in Japanese nabe at a Japanese restaurant and has a little higher quality and chewy texture than South Korean's favorite or most consumed one. Or it seems used for making hotbar (obvious Engrish, 핫바)[13][14], stuffed with a sausage and various vegetables and one of favorite recent street snack. But it is not generally used for ttekbokki or banchan. And satsuma age has much darker skin than Korean version of odeng(kamaboko). If I can not find the exact term, I would add the content without the term. Thank you for your effort anyway.-Appletrees (talk) 16:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Early influences of Japanese cuisine?

I think the first paragraph in the introduction is a bit sloppy and overgeneralizes. For example, "Starting from the ancient era when much of the cuisine was influenced by Chinese culture." This is A, a fragment, and B, patently false. Japan had little contact with China during the "ancient era" and Chinese culture did not really begin to influence Japan until the 6th and 7th centuries.

In the first paragraph of the "History" section it says "by way of the Korean peninsula and directly from China." but how can it be by way of Korea and directly from China? I think most scholars would say that Rice reached Japan through Korea, and if this sentence is trying to imply that the cultivation technique transmitted at this time (I suppose Paddy field rice cultivation? ) originates from China, it needs to be phrased in that way.Jurassica (talk) 20:29, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Okoge

Can someone look in at Guoba and see if the Japanese dish okoge is essentially the same? I think it needs a paragraph, and I also propose merging Guoba, Nurungji, com chay, and okoge to a single article entitled crispy rice, similar to how all the Asian varieties of soy sauce are included in a single article. Badagnani (talk) 21:11, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Move proposal

See Talk:Ume#Requested move. Badagnani (talk) 04:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Deletion discussion

See Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2008_April_12#Seasonal_cuisine. Badagnani (talk) 22:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Japanese Curry

Why no mention of Japanese curry in this article? Curry is consumed by the Japanese more often than Ramen, and it tastes unlike curry from any other country. David Bailey (talk) 16:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks like this has been addressed now. Thanks. David Bailey (talk) 10:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Rice cultivation

According to most prevailing theory, rice cultivation was introduced in Japan directly from Yangtze River, China. (祖父江 孝男「文化人類学入門 増補改訂版」 中央公新社 ISBN 4-12-190560-1). This theory is supported by DNA analysis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.230.158.39 (talk) 16:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

long-grain rice

The short-grain rice cultivation was not only in Japan but also China and Korea, so before the maiji-era all most all Japanse didn't know long-grain rice under seclusion policy, and couldn't eat them until recently under ban on import for conservation policy. So modern Japanse don't know the manner to eat long-grain rice with pleasure, yet. And this was recent event that long-grain rice was imported, in 1993 for bad harvest.Northwest1202 (talk) 20:08, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

What about Hambagu?

Shouldn't there be some mention of Japan's take on Hamburger or Salisbury Steak that they call "Hambagu" in the Foreign Food section?
If you don't know what I mean check here: http://images.google.com/images?q=Hambagu
Or you can try searching on: ハンブルグステーキ
BillyTFried (talk) 15:16, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Hamburger is hanbāgā/ハンバーガー in Japanese. Not hanbāgu/ハンバーグ. Oda Mari (talk) 15:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Links to List of Japanese dishes not working

Since this page is "semi-protected", I cannot do the edits myself. Anyhoo, if you follow the links to the List of Japanese dishes in the Imported and adapted foods section, only the Other adapted cuisines in Japan link is working properly, and the other two (Foods imported from Portugal and Fusion dishes) just link to the main List of Japanese dishes article, not to the proper sections of it. I was going to edit them myself, but as a newbie I couldn't see what the formatting mistake (discrepancy) was. Hope you guys can fix it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Symbolt (talk • contribs) 07:36, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Thank you for pointing out. Oda Mari (talk) 08:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Unfounded statement

The article says, "During the Kofun period much of Japanese civilization came from Korea which in turn was heavily influenced by Chinese culture", and I think it is overstating the Korean influence over the propagation of civilisation. The Japanese had a lot of influence from China before, during and after the Kofun period, and such influence came either directly or indirectly from China. Various Chinese sources clearly record direct communications between China and Japan. For example, according to the Book of Song (宋書), the Japanese sent delegates to China around the time when Daisen Kofun (大仙古墳) was built. --TokyoJapan (talk) 16:05, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

I corrected it. --青鬼よし (talk) 17:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Citations and such

It strikes me that most of the sections tagged as needing verification can be easily cited, but those attributions probably won't be written in English. Can anyone who is bilingual/bi-cultural and savvy dredge up some refs for the etiquette and traditional etc... sections? 76.237.239.35 (talk) 09:25, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Repeated disruption

• Note The first waring comment to 青鬼よし in the thread was copied and pasted by 青鬼よし.[15]--Caspian blue 13:36, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

青鬼よし (talk · contribs), you have added "one source" from a website which does not say that the chopstick is "not from Korea". So you can not deliberately blank the information properly referenced by an "academic book" just for your own taste. That is what Azukimonaka (talk · contribs), the notorious sockpuppeter and his offspring have disrupted the article for the same agenda. History is not made by you. Please refrain from doing such disruption. Regards.--Caspian blue 14:08, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

"Chopsticks of Japan were introduced by Imperial Japanese embassies to China by China. " This is common knowledge in Japan. I introduce "many sources".

Osaka Kyoiku University　箸の伝来 "Transmission of chopsticks" [16]

箸（はし）はいつごろ日本に伝えられたかは定かではなく様々な説があります。様々な説の中から有力な説と言われている二つを紹介します。

①３世紀に書かれた「魏志倭人伝（ぎしわじんでん）」では「倭人（わじん）は手食する」と箸（はし）を使っていなかったような記載がありますが、同時期に書かれた「日本書紀」や「古事記」では箸（はし）の記載がありこれを箸（はし）の起源とする説

②７世紀に入って小野妹子ら遣隋使（Imperial Japanese embassies to China）が中国(Chana)から帰国した時にたくさんの中国文化(Chinese Culture)を日本に持ち帰り、そのなかに中国の食法（箸食）（Table manners of chopsticks）があり、中国の食法といっしょに箸（はし）が日本に伝来したという説

University of Marketing and Distribution Sciences Mori Takayuki (professor of Department of Commercial Science) [17]

日本の食文化に箸が使われるようになったのは、遣隋使、小野妹子によって箸が日本に持ち帰られ、聖徳太子によって宮廷で箸が使われるようになったからです。
Chopsticks came to be used for the gastronomic culture in Japan because chopsticks are taken home to Japan by the Imperial Japanese embassies to China, and chopsticks came to be used by Prince Shōtoku in the royal palace.

Komazawa Women's University "箸と日本人 (Chopsticks and Japanese)" [18]

2本の箸は、唐箸（からはし、中国の箸）ともいい、中国から日本にもたらされたといいます。

Two chopsticks are called Tang Dynasty chopsticks (唐箸 = chopsticks of China). It is thought that it was brought to Japan by China.

"国際箸学会" The International Institute of Hashi(chopsticks) [19]

庶民に広がったのは7世紀のはじめ。諸説があるが、聖徳太子(Prince Shōtoku)が遣隋使(Imperial Japanese embassies to China)から「王朝の人たちが箸を使っている」との報告をうけて、朝廷の人たちに箸を使うよう奨励したというのが面白い。8世紀に入ると、箸は折箸から唐箸（chopsticks of China）と呼ばれる、今日の二本一組のものになった。箸の文字が竹冠なのは中国(China)で使われる箸の素材が主に竹だったためだという。

--青鬼よし (talk) 12:50, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

青鬼よし (talk · contribs), you have provided sources that chopsticks were brought from China. However, the above sources do not say that chopsticks are not from Korea, and only from China. If there has a claim that some culture were transmitted from more than one place, then a single source could only state one place, not all of them. That is why some claims need multiple sources for such contents, but one book could have enough contents to back up that something is from more than two places. And Ishige's book states chopsticks from Chinese and Korean culture.

Moreover, the Ishige's book reference was inserted by admin, Tanner-Christopher, not mine. He is an expert in gastronomy with multiple titles associated with American competition judges, currently up for Ph.D and ran a Japanese restaurant for years. Then, your option is 1) to prove the Ishige's academic assessment is bogus, and unreliable. 2) Ishige's book does not exist. 3) The original writer, Chris does not correctly cite the content from the book.

However, given your multiple disruption including falsifying sources and contents making original research like List of banned films and others even with Japanese sources, I have no reason to doubt the academic's assessment over your persistently disruptive POV pushing.--Caspian blue 13:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

• I went to the library and checked the book written by Ishige.

Certainly I found the descriptions about chopsticks in the first paragraph of chapter 3.5 "Place Settings and Table Settings" on page 67. However There is no description relating to the influence of Korean culture on Japanese chopsticks. I summarize the description avoiding the copyright violation.

• • Chopsticks originated in China and spread to surrounding regions.
  • Chopsticks are found in graves of Chinese colonies in Korea established at the end of first century BC.
  • Chopsticks are found in graves of Paekche king who died in 523 AD.
  • In Japan chopsticks are found in Heijokyo capital which was built from 710 AD.
  • Chopsticks could have been used more previously in Japan.

That is all. No description about the passage to Japan. There is a description on page 48, "from the end of the sixth century, Japan pursued obtaining Chinese civilization directly from the source." So, it is not known which passage chopsticks came through.

Caspian blue: Please do not place a unrelated citation(Ishige, p.71)[20] and insist its legitimacy without reading even a word of the source. The page 71 describes only about the dining table. ―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 21:01, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I trust Tanner-Christopher more than you and 青鬼よし given your activities and his. I've requested Chris to clarify his own writing, so I'll wait for him to comment here. --Caspian blue 21:16, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Question to Phoenix7777 , you said you went to the library, but I don't know what library you're referring to since "the" indicates that I would already know. In East Asia, only one place has the book which is too expensive to buy for general readers.--Caspian blue 23:55, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Caspian blue, Please look at page 67 of "The History and Culture of Japanese Food" (written by Ishige Naomichi).

chopsticks originated in ancient China, spreading from the Yeelow River basin, which was then the center of Chinese civilization, to surrounding regions from about fifth century BCE.

--青鬼よし (talk) 15:39, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

The passage never says chopsticks originated in Korea. The original passage written by Chris states "influenced from Chinese culture and Korean culture", so do not mislead the discussion. Chopstics were used earlier in Korea than in Japan. So the original passage is not totally incorrect given that rice cultivation culture was transmitted to Japan by Korea before the period. Moreover, the book is only available in one public place in East Asia and you could not rebut with the book for a long time whenever your edits have been reverted by not only me, but also others, but how come you suddenly have the book just in one day? Really interesting.--Caspian blue 15:59, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for including me on this discussion Caspian, I am out of town for a convention for the next three days, I will address this discussion on Monday.--Chef Tanner (talk) 23:24, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Tanner-Christophe, I'm glad to meet you. Caspian blue is doing a similar discussion by the article on Daikon. Please let me hear your opinion. --青鬼よし (talk) 14:18, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Not similar discussion at all. Articles should be based on "guideline" and reliable sources". Actually, your these edits to remove cited information from the article is much related to this discussion.[21] However, thank you for canvassing it. Since you're trying to steer the topic to another, how about explaining about your distortion of information[22][23] at List of banned films which is just the same as some sockpuppeter named Orchis29 (talk · contribs) (banned Azukimonaka (talk · contribs)'s sock) persistent disruption on the subject.[24][25][26] Your blanking of properly referenced sources[27] is worthy to check? So that is why I prefer trusting Chris to you.

I know who you were (you revealed yourself by the way which is in PD[28][29][30] (the revealed information is identical to a Japanese stalking/harassing site on me, however, I only file a SPI/RFCU when such sockpuppeters are blatantly harassing me), so please why don't refrain from repeating the past? Thanks.--Caspian blue 14:39, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Some chronicle

Here is a list of removal histories of "specific passages" from the article. The topic is about ancient Japan, especially Kofun and Heian periods. The similar removals can be found pertinent parent articles such as Kofun period and History of Japan.[31][32]

• 218.43.117.240 (talk · contribs · block log)[33][34] banned sockpuppeter, Northwest1202's sock IP
• 218.230.158.39 (talk · contribs · block log)[35][36][37] same as above
• Northwest1202 (talk · contribs · block log)[38][39][40] Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Pabopa
• 61.12.169.234 (talk · contribs)[41][42][43]
• Eichikiyama (talk · contribs · block log)[44] a sock of banned abusive sokpuppeter Azukimonaka (talk · contribs), Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Eichikiyama
• Windybluesea (talk · contribs · block log) [45] same as above, Eichikiyama's sockpuppet
• TokyoJapan (talk · contribs)[46][47] (seems unrelated to the above abusive "socks" though)
• 青鬼よし (talk · contribs)[48][49] edits before reading the book
• Phoenix7777 (talk · contribs)[50] edit before edit the book.

• The last checkuser request held on Jan.21 this year[51], you appeared to edit the same topics since Feb.[52] and June[53] respectively.

So Phoenix7777 and 青鬼よし, please don't blame that I have a little faith in your edits on not only here, but other many Korea-Japan related articles/contents given your edits that I had to correct (your inserting unreliable sources/blanking cited information). This history tells the same repeated pattern. So well, being wary of the past would be a good background information. Thanks.--Caspian blue 15:29, 13 September 2009 (UTC)