Talk:Bill O'Reilly (political commentator)

Deletion of Article Critical of O'Reilly

I question the validity of Wikipedia when they decided to delete the article on the criticism of mr. o'reilly. That alone is reason enough for me to NOT donate to Wikipedia. Most of the criticism quoted on that deleted article was VALID, as it had SOURCES. This tells me that somehow Fox News may be involved...is that the case, or you're just afraid of a silly old man? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.79.143.172 (talk) 23:48, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Latest revision was false and said that Bill O'Reilly was a professional liar which is his opinion and does not belong in the article.

Template:Professional liar Factsnotlies (talk) 06:38, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The edit in question was vandalism. Thank you for calling attention to it, but feel free to be bold in the future. Soxwon (talk) 14:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Bill O'Reilly

The article on Bill O'Reilly (political commentator) should state that "on 10/10/2009 Bill O'Reilly was awarded the Tex McCreery Award for Excellence in Journalism. The award is given out by the Medal of Honor Society, which is comprised by many living recipients of the nation's highest wartime honor". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim1257 (talk • contribs) 16:13, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Other than the transcript from O'Reilly's show, I can't find any mention of this in any reliable source -- self-serving press releases (and one Texas Republican's webpage) aside, are there any sources that can be used to attest to the significance of this "award"? I've never heard of the "Tex McCreery Award for Excellent in Journalism", and it seems like before O'Reilly started trumpeting this "award" no one else had either... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 05:42, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Jim1257 probably means Tex McCrary, "a journalist and public relations specialist who invented the talk-show genre".

A somewhat biased source is at Bill O’Reilly Lies And Smears During Journalism Award Acceptance Speech

The John Reagan "Tex" McCrary Award for Excellence in Journalism is an award given by the Medal of Honor Foundation, an organization "founded by the Congressional Medal of Honor Society which consists exclusively of the living Medal of Honor recipients." Note however that those in the Foundation are not necessarily recipients of the US-CMH.

On a personal note, I do find it amusing that a group made up of US-CMO recipients would give an award to someone who skipped the country, avoiding the draft during the war in Vietnam Kid Bugs (talk) 02:04, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Content from public image article

As I've said before, I support including basically all of that content, the stuff that was just batted in and out of the article. Croctotheface (talk) 19:39, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Citations

I believe I've added a sufficient number or citations to the apology section. Sysrpl (talk) 06:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I've added to more citations, one from the Seatle PI (Associated Press) and one from Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting. Do you need more? Sysrpl (talk) 02:08, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

FAIR, Common Dreams, and The American Prospect are not good sources for WP:DUE. The blurb in the AP would warrant a sentence or two probably, but not its own section. Soxwon (talk) 04:18, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

The text that you removed was four sentences long; is there really that much of a difference? Croctotheface (talk) 04:32, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually I objected to it getting its own subsection (not nearly weighty enough) and really I could summarize pretty well in one actually. Soxwon (talk) 04:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Let us handle these disputes separately and in order. Are you denying these quotes and events are fact? If so I believe the four citations I provided should be sufficient: Associate Press, FAIR, The American Prospect, Flak Magazine. Let us resolve the citation issues first before bringing in other disputes with the content. Sysrpl (talk) 14:44, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

What I'm debating is its importance, FAIR, Prospect, and Flak do not give it that. A blurb in AP makes for a sentence maybe two, not its own section. Soxwon (talk) 00:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

This whole section is a NPOV problem. The premise of the section is that BOR is a hypocrite and the sources are being used to prove this to be true. Now maybe he is but to use mostly biased sources which present the premise to be true you have a NPOV problem. On top of this it is very much undue weight to be given it's own section as it currently is. Arzel (talk) 04:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you may want to reword and merge it into an existing section. As far as the sources go, I believe if you leave just the facts (such as the quotes) there isn't much POV to it. That is unless you are contending the quotes are fabricated. Sysrpl (talk) 12:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I am not making that contention so please stop bringing that red herring into this discussion. I simply contended that there weren't many credible sourcing establishing the importance of this incident to the man's life that it warranted its own section. I have trimmed it and re-added in an appropriate section, though it could go in the section below (about his politics) if needed. Soxwon (talk) 19:55, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I fixed a tense issue (please vs pleased) and some weird quote ... quote ... wordage. Sysrpl (talk) 23:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Where he grew up

I have rmved the section that seemed to be deemed irrelevant by consensus save for the usual Blaxthos/Croctotheface cabal. Soxwon (talk) 00:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Did you even read the discussion? There was plenty of support for including the section, and even the edits at the time did not remove all the text as you have just done here. Furthermore, the way you talk about me is just so rude and obnoxious that I'm almost at a loss to respond to it. It must be easy to believe you're right all the time if you just dismiss people who disagree with you out of hand. Croctotheface (talk) 11:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

It appeared the majority (though I know WP:NOTADEMOCRACY is going to be cited), thought that the hometown portion was simply nitpicking. Soxwon (talk) 19:56, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Revisionist history not based on consensus will be swiftly reverted. There is no cabal. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Apparently you didn't read the two discussions above on the subject, the concensus was that they should be left out. Soxwon (talk) 20:29, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I see no such "concensus", nor do most others -- if that consensus had been clear, the edit would have been done quite a while ago. I fear this may be another episode of Don't agree with the results? Just wait a few weeks and then do what you wanted to do anyway... //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

According to my count, in the past two discussions seven editors; Badmintonhist, Bytebear, Arzel, Soxwon, Happme22, Threeafterthree(Tom), and NickCT basically took the side of removing the material about the "debate" over O'Reilly's neighborhood. Four opposed it; Croctotheface, JamesMLane, Jimintheatl and Blaxthos. Badmintonhist (talk) 22:02, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

After a lengthy discussion upheld a long consensus with which you didn't agree and a failed attempt to start a poisoned WP:RFC, I find it hard to believe that you're now asserting this in seriousness. It's over, just because the three of you won't stop squawking about it doesn't mean that consensus is in your favor. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Now we're getting revisionist history from you, Blax. At the end of the last discussion the "Where did O'Reilly really grow up" material was moved, without objection from you by the way, from the "Early life" section of the article to the "Political beliefs and public perception" section of the article. That was a modest improvement and one that showed some "movement" away from your presumed "consensus". However, on reflection, this just isn't enough for an agenda-driven political animal such as myself. I recommend we scrap all of the silly Levittown versus Westbury nonsense for the reasons that I have already admirably delineated. Badmintonhist (talk) 00:02, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

To be fair, you are correct in stating that the discussion ended with an (acceptable) move to a more appropriate section. The point is, Badmintonhist, that you and Soxwon simply won't accept anything less that complete removal (as you so clearly stated above). Even though the consensus appeared to be stable, here the two of you come a few weeks later making unilateral edits in defiance of that (and previous) agreement(s), and now are pretending like it's okay to do so. I have a real problem with editors who, when dissatisfied with a consensus, have a modus operandi of waiting a few weeks and then pretending they didn't hear previous (settled) discussions and just making unilateral edits in defiance of said consensus. It reeks of agenda driven bad faith editing and shows a complete lack of respect for other editors and any viewpoint other than your own. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 21:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Malmedy massacre controversy

I suggest including this incident in the article:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2KU02lsfH8

I know that the reporter doesn't hide his dislike of O'Reilly, and that O'Reilly fans might find this provocative. However, I feel that such evident tampering with the truth is an important facet of the man.

Best wishes,

Daniel

09:45, 22 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.138.166.53 (talk)

Hi Daniel. This incident used to be covered in the article; it was later moved to an article covering all of O'Reilly's controversies. However, that article was later delete and the content was never merged back into this article (due to the same size guidelines that mandated the split in the first place!), so unfortunately the article is severely deficient in covering Mr. O'Reilly's controversies and criticisms. I agree with your assertion, and will support any efforts you make to re-incorporate this significant controversy into the article. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 13:11, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Public_image_of_Bill_O%27Reilly_%28political_commentator%29&oldid=314791454 Jamie Kitson (talk) 10:47, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

"Tiller the baby killer" comment removed

I'm going to remove the line, "....often referring to him as "Tiller the baby killer"." Anyone who has seen O'Reilly's reports on the Tiller murder can clearly see that he was referencing what OTHER PEOPLE were calling Tiller. O'Reilly himself at no time addressed Tiller in this way, and he certainly denounced the murder, in any case. And the two reference links - numbers 37 and 37 - provide no support for this "baby killer" claim. The article at number 36 makes no reference to either O'Reilly or the "baby killer" comment (in any context). And the link at number 37 is no good. Elsquared (talk) 08:09, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Took me 2 minutes to find and fix the link.The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 18:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

O'Reilly may have at some point referred to other people's characterizations, but he very often used the "baby killer" phrase without any kind of qualifier. His claim to the contrary is simply untrue. Croctotheface (talk) 19:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

The link that supposedy proves O'Reilly specifically called Tiller a baby killer offers no proof at all. The writer offers no broadcast date for such a comment, no transcript, nothing. Your claim about "....without any kind of qualifier" is equally weak. I admit to being a fan of O'Reilly's, but I would be the first to criticize him if the situation warranted. As a regular viewer, I can state categorically that I never heard him use the baby killer comment "without any kind of qualifier". I think it only fair to use more than one source - Brian Stelter in the New York Times - to support this claim. Elsquared (talk) 02:05, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Go look at transcripts from O'Reilly's show. Here's a video: http://www.dailykostv.com/w/001803/ . Sometimes he throws in a very quick qualifier like "known as", but you can see multiple times were he does not. Croctotheface (talk) 06:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, yes. The Daily Kos. The symbol of fair, objective commentary. I'm not going to watch the video, because I know what's going to happen. It's going to be a carefully edited video, highlighting O'Reilly's use of the words "baby killer", with little else. And the Kos commentary will likely make some ridiculous claim like how O'Reilly's comments sponsor terrorism. Even if O'Reilly had called Tiller a baby killer face-to-face, it's only his opinion, based on his belief that a late-term baby (or fetus, if you prefer) is a valid human life. And since it's only his opinion, I have no problem. Leave the Wiki article as is, if you want - O'Reilly did use the phrase "baby killer", I can't argue with that. But I think your analysis of the context is wrong. Elsquared (talk) 23:25, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

If you demand that other editors bring you sources, then refuse to watch the sources that are provided, then you're not approaching this discussion in good faith, and trying to talk to you is not a useful way for me to spend my time. Croctotheface (talk) 03:42, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I am approaching this discussion in good faith. I require not just a source, but a reputable, reliable one. The Daily Kos is neither of those things. Elsquared (talk) 08:48, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Refusing to so much as look at a source before you make (untrue) assertions of fact about it is not a good faith approach. Croctotheface (talk) 03:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I've seen enough commentary in the past from the Daily Kos to make a fair judgement on their credibility. You may wish to believe their rhetoric without question, but I don't. As I said previously, I am confident that the Daily Kos website will (1) accuse O'Reilly of something like sponsoring terrorism, and (2) show a carefully edited video that highlights the words "baby killer". I'll watch the video, but I know what to expect. If I'm wrong, I will gladly apologize. But if I'm correct, will you? If one is to be fair, one must admit the possibility they're wrong. Elsquared (talk) 21:25, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

It cuts together sequences of baby killer and usually includes the qualifier. Soxwon (talk) 00:22, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Right, Soxwon, that's what I said in the first place. He usually qualifies it (albeit very quickly and with two words "known as"), but sometimes he does not qualify it. Elsquared said, "O'Reilly himself at no time addressed Tiller in this way," which the video shows is plainly untrue. Croctotheface (talk) 07:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't see why there should be an argument here. A New York Times article already provides a reliable source for the the "Tiller the baby killer" quotes. The Daily Kos clips of "O'Reilly's program don't have to be used. They do provide his actual words on the show (so would you-tube) for Elsquared's benefit, however using a clearly anti-O'Reilly source in his Wikipedia bio should probably be avoided when possible, just as using a clearly anti-Olbermann source in his Wikipedia bio should probably be avoided when possible. As I said, The New York Times article already provides the required source. Badmintonhist (talk) 10:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what others will think, but the Pulitzer winning Politifact (operated by a newspaper, the St. Pete Times) also has an article regarding O'Reilly claims that he was just reporting what others had said about Tiller. See http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jun/05/bill-oreilly/bill-oreilly-called-george-tiller-baby-killer/ . This article documents 8 times in 2009 where O'Reilly refers to Tiller as the baby killer without attribution of the perjorative term to any person/group. I will let others decide whether this article merits citation in the main article.96.238.237.103 (talk) 15:19, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

A query...O'Reilly's claim to be a combat veteran?

According to this Youtube clip O'Reilly defends himself from a caller who questions him over claims O'Relly made saying he has seen combat: to wit he is inferring he was military veteran who may have served in the Armed Forces.

O'Relly can be heard admitting all this, though he then qualifies this by adding "that people were shooting at me" and he was a journalist at the time in Central America.

It must have touched a nerve as he then tells the caller to "shove it!".

This is very serious stuff in my opinion. He qualifying his opinions by saying he has experienced combat, with the obvious inference that he did this as a soldier - when else would you "face combat" - (but when challenged he qualifies the claim with the answer that he was there as a member of the media).

That's a big, big difference. And one that needs to be examined in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.68.26 (talk) 15:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like O'Reilly has more combat experience than the last three U.S. Presidents. Problem I see is a lack of reliable sources. Youtube clips don't cut it, Daily Kos is the best WP:RS(not sure) I see, and that's only a rough transcript. One would assume we'd run into notability issues as well, but maybe that's just "my opinion." 24.12.93.206 (talk) 20:33, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Well the clip is from O'Relly's own show, so if you can't accept his own spoken words on this, why do you need to attest his words to another source? It sounds like you wouldn't add much weight to them either. Besides what has notability got to do with anything? O'Reilly is a well known commentator who claims to have seen "combat" but when challenged denies that he meant he had served in the military. But where else would you assume a person sees "combat"?86.142.68.26 (talk) 00:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

No need to bite my head off. There are certain things you need to know about Wikipedia. Youtube is considered original research, which is not allowed in a biography of a living person. Notability also serves a major purpose. O'Reilly is notable, but what about his show is notable? He has a bio filled with truly notable events... What does your grievance have to do with his achievements, and/or controversies? This article is fine without your opinion, regardless if you served your Queen. Personally, I have no issue with O'Reilly's words, but me being a U.S. Marine doesn't factor into any requests or denials of biographical materials. 24.12.93.206 (talk) 04:49, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

24.12.93.206 is ThinkEnemies (talk) 04:57, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I am a newbie who has joined specifically to participate in this thread. the controversies section has to be replaced, as per my understanding of wikipedia. So, can we talk about how to achieve this in a correct, NPOV manner? Coldrockrand (talk) 07:27, 4 December 2009 (UTC)coldrockrand

Well just to reiterate the point because I see I am being railroaded here, this is what O'Reilly said:

"I've been in combat. I've seen it. I've been close to it. And if I'm... my unit is in danger, and I've got a captured guy, and the guy knows where the enemy is, and I'm looking him in the eye, the guy better tell me. That's all I'm gonna tell you. He better tell me. If it's life or death, he's going first."

Transcript

This implies that O'Reilly is associating himself with the military because he has "been in combat". An assumption that is not corrected till the caller questions him. It's obvious from O'Reilly's hostile reaction he has been caught out. But that is what happens when people are disingenuous with the truth.

I don't understand why is this not suitable to be included in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.139.4 (talk) 14:34, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

When you describe yourself as a "newbie who has joined specifically to participate in this thread," 86.130.139.4, you are giving more information about yourself than would be advisable. It gives the impression that you might simply have an anti-O'Reilly, or, more broadly, an anti-conservative agenda. In any case there are a number of problems with including this tidbit in the article. Most importantly, I think, is that it is basically a mere tidbit, one of the many, many, things that O'Reilly (in common with other political talk show hosts and pundits) has said which both stretch the truth and offend some people's sensibilities. The purpose of a Wikipedia bio is not to develop a compendium of every half-assed statement that its subject has made. They are not intended to be attack pieces. As such statements go, by the way, I don't happen to think that this is a particularly egregious one. Yes, O'Reilly should have said from the outset that he had "seen" combat at close range in his role as a reporter rather than leaving the impression that it was as a member of the military. However, he corrected this impression quickly when challenged by the very next caller (thus, literally, within seconds). The other problems have to do with WP:Notability, WP: Reliable Sources and WP:Undue. Youtube and other sites which merely show clips are not considered reliable sources for the purpose of making Wikipedia information notable. One needs to find the information displayed and/or discussed in bona fide secondary news sources. One should also consider the appropriate amount of weight given in an article to various sources. For example. an article on, say Keith Olbermann, should not be heavily loaded with right-leaning sources such as Newbusters, The Fox News Channel, National Review, etc. Similarly, an article on Bill O'Reilly should not be heavily loaded with left-leaning sources such as Media Matters, the Huffington Post, and MSNBC. Badmintonhist (talk) 16:04, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your attention. Yes, I do in fact dislike many things about Mr. O'Reilly's career. I did specifically sign up because as some one who monitored him during the Bush administrations, I have personal, first hand knowledge about Mr. O'Reilly's work, which I found to be objectionable. He is not a journalist, but he dons the raiments, with the suit and pen and desk, but he is a lurching, Bizarro version of a journalist. This is what the right wing does, they co-opt institutions they dislike, and create these upside down versions of them, in order to demean the institution altogether. I know you could give !-all about my opinion, but just for some context. I am not a nut, per se ;), I understand that "Bill O'Reilly" is a character on television, played by William J. O'Reilly. I am not crazy with hate. The map is not the terrain. But this "character" has certain traits and hallmarks, and methods and history and patterns. These are notable, and with regards to that, as Mr. o'propaganda likes to say, "there's no debate". I don't mean to bother you guys with so much of what you must consider my opinion, I just want to participate. I am sure there are people here agree with his tactics. So I want to, with the proper guidance, participate. Even the combat thing, illustrates how he is very often dishonest by omission. He makes some pronouncement, and then unless he is held down and made to address it (good luck with that), then he lets stuff like that lie NPI. So my bottom line is, an article about Mr. O'Reilly that does not contain an objective and honest addressing of "Bill O'Reilly"'s controversies and tactics and patterns, is most definitely incomplete and IMHO, dishonest, by omission...coldrockrandColdrockrand (talk) 20:10, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

"He is not a journalist, but he dons the raiments, with the suit and pen and desk, but he is a lurching, Bizarro version of a journalist."

Statements like that won't and don't help you achieve your goal of disparaging the subject of a WP:BLP. ThinkEnemies (talk) 00:41, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

thank you for your response; to clarify, I know that this is not the place to disparage the subject. There are alot of places on the net to do that. I don't even necessarily think that I should participate here. I love Wikipedia. I consider it the record, in many ways. I think alot of you folks put in alot of time and effort to keep these things on the straight and narrow. The fact is, friends, that this article is sorely lacking because it does not address Mr. O'Reilly's controversies, methods and practices, which are unique in many ways, certainly to the world of journalism. Have there been others who are similar, like Fulton Sheen et. al? I think so. But you have no mention of mr. O'Reilly's style, which is certainly notable. I think history will show that we as a nation presided over a dark day when O'reilly walked on the Tiller thing. Mr. O'Reilly, my friends, you must all agree, enjoys being PART of the news and until you resolve that, this article is glaringly, disrespectfully omissive... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coldrockrand (talk • contribs) 09:50, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

First time I have ever heard O'Reilly compared to the late Bishop Fulton J. Sheen whom I'm old enough to remember. I'm sure O'Reilly would be pleased by that, even from if it came someone who didn't admire either of the two men. However we're getting pretty far afield here, Coldrockrand. You're as free as anyone else is to make edits in the actual article, but you should be prepared to justify them according to Wikipedia rules of the road. Badmintonhist (talk) 00:21, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Criticism page needed

Bill O'Reilly is one of the most controversial figures in the public eye, we all know this. There are sources everywhere, and I mean EVERYWHERE on the internet for his ill-behavior and frowned-upon beliefs and personality. You can literally type in his name on youtube and you will find hundreds of videos depicting his poor behavior, from losing his temper to insulting people who call his show, the list goes on. It boggles my mind that NONE of this has been addressed in the article let alone there is no dedicated article for it. --Radicalfaith360 (1/19/2010)

Read WP:POVFORK plz. Soxwon (talk) 05:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Read WP:POV plz. The user above has a valid problem: this page used to have an extensive sourced section on O'Reilly's (negative) public image. Then it was pushed out into a separate article (this one: [1]) by O'Reilly fans, then there were 7 (seven!) deletion attempts of the public image article (all but one of which ended with a "keep"), and last year a single admin simply removed that article without consensus. (He "merged" it here, but the content strangely didn't arrive...) If that isn't pushing of opinion (some would say "whitewash"), I don't know what is. -- Marcika (talk) 12:08, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

You're missing the point, you do not correct a lack of criticism by simply creating a POV "Criticism" page or a POV "criticism section." If you feel that the material should be added back into the article, then by all means do so. However, do so in appropriate places rather than letting it all accumulate in one particular section of the article. Soxwon (talk) 15:20, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

That would make for an extremely unorganized article, such as this one right now (honestly, look at this article, and a revision four or five years ago, and tell me which is more informative). Also, I've given up on getting into pointless edit wars with political zealots on Wikipedia sometime back in 2004, so I won't get involved here. -- Marcika (talk) 09:25, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

item only list 2 refuted points by Franken, I guess intelligent people know the truth, and dumb people wont be swayed but any facts anyway. gadfly46 23:23, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

Duplicated Paragraph

There was a paragraph (regarding the cross-filed lawsuits with Andrea Mackris) that was duplicated in both the "Personal life" section and the "Controversy, criticism, and parody" section. It seemed more appropriate for the "Controversy, criticism, and parody" section so I deleted it from the "Personal Life" section. cheers Thepm (talk) 04:23, 29 January 2010 (UTC)