Talk:Australia: Difference between revisions
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:::::Totally agree with above. There has not been any consensus to add the info, despite pages of discussion. Dead horse.--[[User:Dmol|Dmol]] ([[User talk:Dmol|talk]]) 07:34, 17 October 2010 (UTC) |
:::::Totally agree with above. There has not been any consensus to add the info, despite pages of discussion. Dead horse.--[[User:Dmol|Dmol]] ([[User talk:Dmol|talk]]) 07:34, 17 October 2010 (UTC) |
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I wouldn't say a constructive discussion "stinks". All of this is useful information about Australia's early history. As for the [[WP:DEADHORSE|"dead horse"]](?) the long discussion was about Etymology. That's over. ''This'' discussion is about prior discoveries. Please don't try to kill the discussion just because you don't agree. [[User:JCRB|JCRB]] ([[User talk:JCRB|talk]]) 21:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC) |
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== "Australia has strong international teams in cricket..." == |
== "Australia has strong international teams in cricket..." == |
Revision as of 21:56, 17 October 2010
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Template loop detected: Talk:Australia/Links
Independance
It states that Australia has independance from the UK. I don't feel this is technically correct. Should we change this?Rtc872 (talk) 10:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)criosdaidh
- Australia is a fully independent sovereign state with no constitutional ties to the United Kingdom. Australia, Canada and a dozen other realms simply share the same monarch. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
- This hasn't always been the case. In fact, it's indisputably been the case only since 3 March 1986, less than a quarter of a century ago. And ask a random Australian what the effects of the Australia Act 1986 were, he'll likely say "The what acts?". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 12:31, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
First sighting of Australia by Queiros
According to some sources, the first European to see the Australian continent was Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós (Quiros in Spanish) who sailed the South Pacific in 1605. The members of his expedition saw the northern tip of Australia, though they did not make landfall. Quirós landed on a large island which he took to be part of the southern continent, and named it La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo (The Austrian Land of the Holy Spirit), for King Philip III, who belonged to the House of Habsburg or House of Austria. The island was in fact in the New Hebrides archipelago, today the country of Vanuatu. The island is still called Espiritu Santo. This information is not in the article. I have therefore included the following sentences:
- Etymology section: In 1606 Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós sailing on a Spanish expedition arrived in Espiritu Santo and named the island "La Austrialia [1] del Espiritu Santo".
- History section: European explorers first sighted Australia in the early 17th century. Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandez de Queirós, who led a Spanish expedition to the South Pacific in 1605, was probably the first European to see the Australian continent[2] [3]. The Torres Strait is named after Luis Váez de Torres, a member of the Queiros expedition. However, the first recorded European sighting of the mainland and the first landfall were attributed to the Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon...
The discovery of Australia is contested between Dutch explorer Willem Janszoon and Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandez de Queiros. There are references for both interpretations, all of them reliable. This is why I suggest using the term "probably" when mentioning Queiros' first sighting of the Australian mainland. JCRB (talk) 13:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, JCRB, but I don't this is appropriate. I just took a look at some parts of Richardson on Google Books. Richardson's thesis appears to be that these claims re de Queirós are likely to be untrue - the source should not be misconstrued in the WP article. Moran's pamphlet is useless as a source and should not be quoted at all. The lack of scholarly credence for this theory is reflected in the Australian Government's culture portal making no mention of it. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Point 1 (Etymology Section). I am waiting to hear comments about this fact.
- Point 2 (History Section) Richardson says that the masses supposedly said on Australian soil were in fact said on Espiritu Santo. Therefore Moran's claims that Queiros made landfall are probably untrue, I agree. However, my point is not about landfall, but about the first sighting of the Australian continent. Richardson clearly says:
- "Torres certainly sailed through the strait that bears his name in 1606 and may possibly have seen the tip of Cape York in the distance..." (page 20, "Was Australia Chartered before 1606?" by W.A.R. Richardson)
- This means there is a reasonable possibility that Torres, part of the Queiros expedition, sighted Australia before the Dutch. Also, let me add that a government's failure to mention a historical event on their website is no proof whatsoever that such an event did not take place. I can show you many official websites which ignore or forget significant events in their history. JCRB (talk) 11:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- "May possibly have" does not mean there is a reasonable possibility that somebody who landed 2,700km away thinking that he was still in Australia actually saw the country. At best it's giving him the benefiot of the doubt. --AussieLegend (talk) 11:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. It's tempting to believe that there were European discoverers before Janszoon, but we do not know for certain that there were any other before him. You cannot accord a "reasonable possibility" with the status of "historical event". And that is certainly why the Australian Government does not recognise any claim prior to Janszoon's - there is no proof, just some vague possibilities. In relation to Queiros, you've gone from "probably" down to "may possibly" and "a reasonable possibility". On that basis, we may as well include an equally "reasonable possibility", the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia, which holds that the continent was discovered in 1521, a full 85 years before Janszoon. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with Jack. Going back to your Etymological point: we should only include this if there is any demonstrated link between de Queirós's naming of what is now Vanuatu and the name later given to the southern continent, Australia. While the two look very similar, that does not mean there are etymological or historical links. The continent's name derives from word/s meaning "southern", whereas "Austrialia" appears derived from "Austria". As far as I can see, we are dealing with a superficial similarity that has no basis in etymology. But I'm happy to be corrected. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:44, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. It's tempting to believe that there were European discoverers before Janszoon, but we do not know for certain that there were any other before him. You cannot accord a "reasonable possibility" with the status of "historical event". And that is certainly why the Australian Government does not recognise any claim prior to Janszoon's - there is no proof, just some vague possibilities. In relation to Queiros, you've gone from "probably" down to "may possibly" and "a reasonable possibility". On that basis, we may as well include an equally "reasonable possibility", the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia, which holds that the continent was discovered in 1521, a full 85 years before Janszoon. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- "May possibly have" does not mean there is a reasonable possibility that somebody who landed 2,700km away thinking that he was still in Australia actually saw the country. At best it's giving him the benefiot of the doubt. --AussieLegend (talk) 11:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments. Again, I am not arguing that Torres or Queiros sighted Australia for certain before the Dutch, rather, that this possibility exists, and that it should be mentioned. Regarding the Portuguese discovery of Australia in 1522, yes I have read about that. They called it Jave La Grande ("Jave the Great") and there are 16th century maps of a coast very similar to the Australian coast with Portuguese names on it. Maybe this should also be mentioned with a link to the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia.
Regarding the Etymology of Australia, I think the issue needs no further explanation: In "A note of Australia del Espíritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt and published by Samuel Purchas in Hakluytus Posthumus" English writer Richard Hakluyt talks about Espiritu Santo island, discovered by Queiros in 1606 which he called "Austrialia del Espiritu Santo". Queiros belived he was in Australia. What part of that historical and etymological link don't you see? JCRB (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- No, no, no. It's not that there was known to be a large land mass with the name of Australia, and all any explorer had to do was actually find it. That's not it at all. There was believed to be a large southern land mass. It did not have a name, because its very existence was only in the realm of fantasy and postulation. Queros sighted the place we now call Vanuatu. He called it Austrialia del Spiritu Santo - a reference to Austria, nowhere else. The etymology of the word "Austria" is from a German word that means "east" (of Germany); it's Österreich in German (Öster-reich = Eastern Realm), which was rendered in Latin as Austria. It has nothing to do with the Latin australis, meaning "south", which was the basis of the name of Australia. The fact that Queiros believed (mistakenly) he'd found the Great Southern Land, and the name he gave to that place, have nothing to do with the name later given to the actual Great Southern Land. There is a superficial similarity, that's all. The confusion of Austria with Australia is something we take modern-day Americans to task for all the time. Please let's not have it making an appearance here. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oh I get it. You're saying it's pure coincidence that "Austr-i-alia del Espiritu Santo" (name given by Queiros) and "Australia del Espiritu Santo" (first recorded use of the word Australia in English) are almost identical? Oh, I see. That's a really convincing argument. JCRB (talk) 19:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
- Quite a bit of confusion happening here.
- In February 1606, Janszoon landed on Cape York near Weipa, the first definitely known landfall by a European on Australian soil. He thought this was a continuation of New Guinea. He did not realise he had stumbled upon the Great Southern Land.
- In May 1606, Queiros discovered a group of islands to the south-east of New Guinea. He named them Austrialia del Espiritu Santo, in honour of his patron, who was of the royal house of Austria. Although he believed and claimed he’d discovered the Great Southern Land or Terra Australis (he hadn’t – he’d discovered Vanuatu), at no time did he ever give it a name that actually means that or anything like that.
- It is a pure coincidence that the Latin word for southern (australis) and the German word for eastern (öster, and its derivatives in Latin: Austria, Austrialia; which have given us the English name of that country, Austria) are so similar and easily confused. Blame Queiros for not picking his name more judiciously. It has no doubt contributed to the absolute furphy that Queiros landed near Gladstone, Qld, and was the "true" discoverer of Australia. There is no evidence that Queiros ever came within a bull’s roar of Australia.
- Even if Queiros did actually land on Australian soil, of which hypothesis there is no evidence, Janszoon beat him by 3 months anyway.
- When Hakluyt wrote in 1625 about "Australia del Espíritu Santo", he was certainly referring to the discovery made by Queiros (i.e. Vanuatu). He did not exactly copy Queiros’s spelling, but they were less strict in those days about such things. Despite what some old history textbooks might have said, the terms "Austrialia del Espíritu Santo" or "Australia del Espíritu Santo" have never been directly applied to the landmass now known as Australia. They have always referred to what was believed to be the Great Southern Land (which we now know as Australia), but what is actually Vanuatu. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:40, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
- Quite a bit of confusion happening here.
No, no confusion at all. If the "first recorded use of the word Australia in English" was in "A note of Australia del Espíritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt and published by Samuel Purchas in Hakluytus Posthumus", then the article should say where this name came from. Regardless of where they were (Queiros was indeed in Vanuatu) the point is the name "Australia del Espiritu Santo" came from Queiros' expedition, which landed in Espiritu Santo and called the island that way (thinking he was in mainland Australia). A short sentence mentioning this should be enough. That's all. JCRB (talk) 03:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's probably not coincidence, but due to the same etymological background of the word. Europeans had thought there was a great "terra australis" for ages. It was on medieval maps and the like, although just as a large blob. When they found land in the south, they named it after this. I believe the first use of Australia in English is often claimed to be by Matthew Flinders, though I'm sure someone knows more than me. If someone finds some random island and calls it the southern land, that doesn't really relate to Australia at all. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 05:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- True, Europeans thought there was a Terra australis incognita since long ago, and the first European to claim the discovery (though mistakenly) and to give it a name (La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo), was Queiros in 1606. This name was later used by Richard Hakluyt in 1625. JCRB (talk) 12:55, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- JCRB, you say "Queiros' expedition, which landed in Espiritu Santo and called the island that way (thinking he was in mainland Australia)" as though he named it after Terra Australis when in actual fact, as JackofOz has repeatedly noted, he named the island in honour of his royal patrons, the Habsburgs of Austria. You cannot claim that the word Australia derives from this Austrialia, or that the corruption of Austrialia in an obscure 17th century document in anyway contributed to the later use of Australia. I'll agree, though, that if we are to mention this earliest recorded instance of Australia in a published text, then we need also to say "where this name came from" — and that is as a corruption Austrialia. In an etymology section of an overview article, we do not and should not be delving into (unsubstantiated) theories of alternate discovery. — cj | talk 05:40, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
I have once more removed the contested information because as far as I can see, there is not any consensus for its addition. It is a reference to a totally different place thousands of miles away.--Dmol (talk) 12:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- I would encourage editors who oppose including the sentence on Queiros and Australia del Espiritu Santo to explain their arguments here, instead of threatening to block editors for "potential" edit-warring. I would like to see what type of arguments are used in the face of verifiable information. JCRB (talk) 20:09, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- The reasons have been explained ad nauseum and in great detail above. There is no consensus to add this information. It appears that you are the only editor seeking to add it.--Dmol (talk) 20:56, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- I need to be convinced that the use of a word meaning east (AustrIalia) has anything to do with a word meaning south (Australis). HiLo48 (talk) 21:08, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Dmol, the reasons have not been explained ad nauseam. The expression "ad nauseam" applies to very long, unproductive and tiresome discussions. We have only started discussing the Etymology issue recently. I wish you provided reasonable arguments beyond "there is no consensus".
CJ, I partly agree with you, and I appreciate your reasoning. If the article mentions the earlist recorded use of the word in English, it should also say "where this name came from". I also think that it should say who gave it this name: navigator Pedro Fernandes Queiros who landed in the main island of Vanuatu, thinking he was on mainland Terra Australis. By the way, the Spanish article on Australia says that "Austr-i-alia" has a double etymological root: "Austria" (for the Habsburgs of Austria, the Spanish dynasty of the time) and "Austral" meaning southern (Queiros was searching for Terra Australis or "Southern Land"). The combined "Austrialia" was later corrupted or translated incorrectly to English as "Australia" [1] JCRB (talk) 14:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- No, we do not need to talk about Queirós, because what we are talking about from an etymological point of view is the earliest recorded use of the word Australia. This earliest recorded use was not by Queirós, but by a writer describing the island and corrupting its name. To delve deeper into the matter is to dapple in a history of Vanuatu and Spanish exploration. That is not our interest here. As to your "double etymology" idea, I'm unconvinced, and the burden is with you to prove it. — cj | talk 00:56, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
- Again, I have to agree only partially. Yes, the double etymology hypothesis needs to be proven. However, I disagree that mentioning Queiros as the navigator who gave Australia an early version of its name, later corrupted by Master Hakluyt, is "to dapple in a history of Vanuatu and Spanish exploration". Queiros was not in a random island he decided to call "Austrialia". He was on an island he believed was Australia. The link between the name and the land he thought he had reached, cannot be ignored. JCRB (talk) 10:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
- All the Queiros thought he found was some mythical southern land, which had nothing to do with modern australia except that both navigators thought they found a southern land mass. The move from "Australis" to "Australia" was probably not a big step. This source [2] by the australian government says that Flinders thought of it himself. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
- There seems to be an element of not hearing the arguments, though JCRB has certainly continued to engage on the talk page and (mostly) not in the article mainspace. I am still seeing no link between the two superficially similar names, and therefore no need for discussion in a section on the etymology of "Australia". Look at it from a different angle: if a lay reader who knew nothing of the subject read about Queros's name for Vanuatu, would they be given a better understanding of the historical origin of the country's name? No. Because it isn't where the name came from. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
- I really think this argument is exhausted. You say "the link between the name and the land he thought he had reached, cannot be ignored." But the point is, there is no link - not without proof that he named the island in the fashion of Terra Australis. The available evidence shows that he in fact named them for the Hapsburgs of Austria. Etymologically, the only relevance this has for this article is that the superficial similarity Austrialia and Australia caused one writer to mistakenly use the later in reference to the former, and that this mistake was the first recorded instance of Australia. — cj | talk 06:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yup, well and truly dead and flogged --Merbabu (talk) 09:53, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
- All the Queiros thought he found was some mythical southern land, which had nothing to do with modern australia except that both navigators thought they found a southern land mass. The move from "Australis" to "Australia" was probably not a big step. This source [2] by the australian government says that Flinders thought of it himself. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
- Again, I have to agree only partially. Yes, the double etymology hypothesis needs to be proven. However, I disagree that mentioning Queiros as the navigator who gave Australia an early version of its name, later corrupted by Master Hakluyt, is "to dapple in a history of Vanuatu and Spanish exploration". Queiros was not in a random island he decided to call "Austrialia". He was on an island he believed was Australia. The link between the name and the land he thought he had reached, cannot be ignored. JCRB (talk) 10:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with that. The current sentence should be sufficient. Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- See new section belowNickm57 (talk) 23:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Cleaned up Intro
I have made several changes to clean up and streamline the slightly unwieldly intro, bringing the format slightly closer to what's used for most other countries.
In the table to right, under independence, I removed statute of westminster, leaving statutue of westminster adoption act -- this is because it is only when we adopted the statute that it came into effect here.
In the intro, I merged the two middle paragraphs on the history of the commonwealth, as the break was undeeded - it is one paragraph summarising the country's history. The pronunciation key was unnecessarily large, with four different renditions of the word Australia -- too much for a short intro paragraph. Following the example for the Canada page, I used in the intro only the first pronunciation, native to australia, as they have used the canadian one -- and left out the subsequent american and british pronunciations that were previously and unnecessarily in the first line of the article, making it unwieldly and difficult to navigate.
I also added into the last paragraph which tends to be about the particular nation's significance, the fact we are Oceania's sole Regional power as other nations ie UK Japan South Korea Brazil put their status as a Great power or Regional power into their equivalent of this paragraph. I also included our military expenditure rank, as this is also a convention used by many other nations in their equivalent paragraph. Where it said "largely self-governing colonies" I added the link to the specific term for it, which was that the colonies were given the right to Responsible government by the UK govt (see sections on Australia and Colonies with Responsible Government for details). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 08:15, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- I feel like reverting it again. This is a FA, and the other countires are not; particularly articles on Asian countries shouldn't be used as a model, as they are often flooded by nationalists who keep on wanting to stick photos of tanks, missiles, skyscrapers everywhere and pretend their country is a superpower. eg on the India page, which is supposed to be a FA, there are always these SPAs who want to put nukes and skyscrapers everywhere, and no slums. similar for the pak article.... Being a middle/super/regional power is vague and more or less useless, and the stuff about military expenditute is nonsense. I don't know whether those stats account for the cost of living, but lots of countries lie and say they are not spending much; there is no way that Australia with 50k troops and a handful of jets is remotely militarily influential, paranoid, aggressive, ambitious, prepared, en garde, toey etc YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:35, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not a fan either. (and nice summary of some Asian country pages, by the way) --Merbabu (talk) 09:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not a fan either and actually have reverted some of the changes. Stating that Australia has no official language is just as important as stating the official language if we had one. There have been enough discussions over the past few years to indicate that the section is important. Changing from "English language" to "Australian English" is going against the consensus from a previous, and fairly recent discussion, now archived at Talk:Australia/Archive 15#Is "Ozzie" superfluous? "Australian English" or English? I actually support Australian English but we don't go against consensus. Similarly, reorganisation and removal of various acts goes against consensus from an earlier discussion. This consensus was explained to Saruman-the-white in a discussion he initiated only last month, so changing the section now, regardless of that discussion does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. --AussieLegend (talk) 09:28, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not a fan either. (and nice summary of some Asian country pages, by the way) --Merbabu (talk) 09:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- I feel like reverting it again. This is a FA, and the other countires are not; particularly articles on Asian countries shouldn't be used as a model, as they are often flooded by nationalists who keep on wanting to stick photos of tanks, missiles, skyscrapers everywhere and pretend their country is a superpower. eg on the India page, which is supposed to be a FA, there are always these SPAs who want to put nukes and skyscrapers everywhere, and no slums. similar for the pak article.... Being a middle/super/regional power is vague and more or less useless, and the stuff about military expenditute is nonsense. I don't know whether those stats account for the cost of living, but lots of countries lie and say they are not spending much; there is no way that Australia with 50k troops and a handful of jets is remotely militarily influential, paranoid, aggressive, ambitious, prepared, en garde, toey etc YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:35, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
change what you feel necessary then. I was mainly modeling the last para with the regional power, military expenditure on the UK article not those of asian countries. You're correct that many nations probably mis-report their military expenditure, but I was just using the only official figures there are which are used across wiki. Yes I agree with you about nationalists on many tinpot country's pages and I think this should be avoided, but I also think she shouldn't be unsswervingly self-loathing PC leftists who don't acknowledge achievments that have indeed been made. I'm sure you wont have any problems with the first and second para though. That was for example removing "remains a commonwealth realm", as that is mentioned in the third para in organisations we are members of, so this shouldnt be mentioned twice in the intro alone, as well as finding the correct term for "largely self governing colonies" and streamlining it a bit. If you feel strongly about the third one though go ahead. RE the dates in the independence section, I thought I was arguing before for removing all of the additional ones? But okay, that's not such a pressing issue anyway. I took out the mention of most of the population living in syd melb bris perth adelaide in the intro and just said urban areas on the coast as the former seemed too detailed and specific for the intro, and also ignores the fact that apart from those 5 largest ones, just about all the other urban areas in australia bar canberra (if that counts as major) are also on the coast. I replaced aust has maintained a "liberal democracy" and changed it to "federal parliamentary democracy" as this is the specific term used for the political system. Saruman-the-white (talk) 09:38, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oh I don't think it is self-loathing, as it mentions stuff about the public education/health and other good grassroots stuff. It should mention low corruption too I think. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 00:58, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Where it says we have maintained a "liberal democratic political system", if we're talking about the political system (which we should in the intro) shouldn't we just use the correct term for what our political system is, which it says in the table, which is that we have maintained a "federal parliamentary democracy". Also in the organisations we are a member of in the third para, it lists commonwealth of nations, so mentioning that in that sentence in the second sentence about what we've remained is also quite unnecessary as once is enoug.Saruman-the-white (talk) 02:45, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Edit request from MelbGuy1, 29 September 2010
{{edit semi-protected}}
as of august 2010 australia's unemployment rate is 5.1 percent, reference link: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0
MelbGuy1 (talk) 22:09, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Done Thanks, Stickee (talk) 00:05, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
re: biggest worldwide selling albums missing
If Opera and Symphony's get a paragraph, contemporary music deserves a mention.
referring to wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_worldwide
ACDC's back in black is the second biggest selling album of all time, the Bee Gee's ranked 9th with Saturday Night Fever. There are other notable internationally acclaimed musicians (eg. kylie minogue, olivia newton john, inxs, jet). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.190.211.91 (talk) 18:26, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
The theory of Portuguese discovery and Torres...
- For the sake of clarity I've created a new section and included some of the discussion from above, that had moved into this topic. Hope you dont mind, JCRBNickm57 (talk) 23:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- Surely you mean to suggest "first sighting by Torres"? Quiros was on his way back to Mexico when Torres was navigating the strait that now bears his name. Quiros could not be said to still be in command of an expedition that he had abandoned! My view is Torres' success was remarkable, and I think Brett Hilder has established a high likelyhood that Torres did see the tip of what is now Cape York. However, its clear from existing records that (if they did see Cape York) the Spanish did not recognise the land they saw for what it was. Thus, the sighting, if it occurred, contributed nothing to European knowledge of the world. This is also Mike Pearson's thinking about the contentious Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia- if it happened, it contributed nothing to "expand European knowledge of Australia, the portrayal of Jave La Grande having no greater status that any other conjectural portrayal of Terra Australis." For that reason, I feel its not appropriate to mention either in the short summary on this page. Both Torres, Quiros and "the Theory..." all have detailed pages of their own! Nickm57 (talk) 22:10, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Nickm57, yes, I meant the "first sighting by Torres" who was part of Queiros' original expedition. Indeed, there are different sources which prove this first sighting. You mentioned Brett Hilder and his "high likelyhood" that this ocurred. There are other sources. In The First Discovery of Australia and New Guinea (1906) [3] the author, George Collingridge says:
- "Sailing along the shores of the islands to the north of Australia, between Cape York and Prince of Wales Island, Torres regained the coast of New Guinea [...] He had discovered Australia without being aware of the fact, and had completed the Spanish circumnavigation of New Guinea."
See this map for the full route of Torres [4]. In a timeline at the end of the book, Collingridge also writes: "1606. Torres sails towards Australia from the New Hebrides, passes through the straits that bear his name, and discovers Australia, without, apparently, being aware of the fact." So according to this historian Torres was the first European to sight Australia (and to sail its waters) although he did not make landfall.
Regarding the prior discovery of Australia by the Portuguese, there are also a number of sources which prove this, largely based on the Dieppe maps, specially this one [5] and this one [6] which show the Australian landmass south of Java and Sumatra, but farther to the east. In the same work Collingridge explains that these maps were purposely distorted by the Portuguese so that Australia appeared in the hemisphere assigned to Portugal by Pope Alexander (in the Treaty of Tordesillas). Collingridge provides an interesting illustration comparing the real and the fictitious location of Australia here [7]. He also explains:
- "the Portuguese, who were the first to make discoveries in these seas, must have been perfectly aware that the coasts they had charted lay more to the east, and if they dragged them out of position and placed them under Java as shown in these maps, it was in order to secure to themselves the lion's share, for their line of demarcation, as fixed by Pope Alexander".
So according to the above information, both Torres (in 1606) and the Portuguese (in the 16th century) arrived in Australia before the Dutch. Whether they made this knowledge available to other Europeans or not, is not really the point. Many discoveries were kept secret during the 16th and 17th centuries so that competing nations did not threaten trade or power in the newly discovered regions. Regarding the fictitious position of Australia in the above-mentioned map, this is what Spanish pilot Juan Gaetan said about the Portuguese charts:
- "I saw and knew all their charts. They were all cunningly falsified, with longitudes and latitudes distorted, and land-features drawn in at places and stretched out at others to suit their purposes, etc., etc., and when they found out that I understood their little pranks they made strenuous efforts to get me to enlist in their service, and made me advantageous offers, which, however, I scorned to accept"' [8]
So clearly it was customary to protect valuable information like maps and trade routes by keeping them secret and even falsifying documents. With this in mind, it seems highly probably that the Portuguese arrived Australia in the 16th century. Therefore, the article should mention both of these prior discoveries. JCRB (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
- Scope of the history section in this article.
- A WP article on Australia, in its short history summary section, should not need to include reference to unsubstantiated or speculative matters, and this includes suggestions of voyages by the Portuguese. The full History of Australia and European exploration of Australia articles, linked from this page, do make passing mention of this theory. The same applies to speculation about what Torres may have seen, even though his voyage was documented.
- My benchmark for whether it’s appropriate to mention this theory in this article is still based on Mike Pearson’s comment. Whether such sightings occurred or not, they went unrecorded and were not exploited or celebrated. They contributed nothing to European knowledge of Australia, and therefore are at best, curiosities of our own history.
- Many reading this discussion will have contributed to articles on European exploration of Australia and read Collingridge’s works of the late 19th century. May I recommend to interested Wikipedians some of the more recent writers like Bill Richardson, Gayle K. Brunelle and Robert King. I think this is where informed contemporary thinking is, on the Dieppe maps and any possible connection to Australia. Nickm57 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
- By the way JCRB – you suggest "many other' discoveries of the 16th and 17th century were kept secret. I would have more sympathy for your argument to include this topic if I could think of any comparable secret discoveries! On the contrary, I suggest most "new world" geographical discoveries were blabbed about in 16th and 17th century Europe very quickly! Nickm57 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Generally unknown discoveries: European maritime expeditions from the Age of Exploration up to the 18th century were usually kept secret to prevent rival powers from gaining access to profitable trade, or from establishing bases that would threaten their colonies. This meant either locking away the documents that recorded the discovery, or distorting the charts as I explained above. Discussing 18th century Spanish travel literature, Professor Garcia Sanchez from Eastern Washington University writes:
- "Although the production of [Spanish] narrative was very abundant, due to the secretiveness the Borbonic government kept on those explorations, they didn’t have a lot of popular acknowledgement like similar narratives in the rest of Europe".
There are territories which the Portuguese or the Spanish discovered in the 16th century, but due to the policy of discretion this has not been acknowledged sufficiently. In territories where a different European power eventually took over, this is specially the case. For example, according to this theory Hawaii was probably discovered by the Spanish in 1555. See also this article[9]. The discovery of the Spice Islands or Moluccas was also kept secret by the Portuguese for a few decades until the unification of Spain and Portugal under the Iberian Union. The route of the Manila Galleons itself was kept rigorously secret for almost its full duration (1565-1815) allowing the Viceroyalty of New Spain and the Casa de Contratacion to operate a transpacific monopoly between the Philippines and the Americas undisturbed for at least one century. So not all discoveries were disclosed. In fact, documents of exploration such as logbooks and maps were sometimes locked away for a very long time. According to this book [4] (quoting the WP article) "the Hawaiian islands were not known to have any valuable resources, so the Spanish would have not made an effort to settle them". The same thing happened to the Mariana Islands (specially Guam) discovered by Magellan in 1521, and visited by various explorers afterwards (among them Legazpi and Urdaneta in 1565) but not settled until 1668.
Scope of the history section: As for the scope of the history section, I think we need to be more open-minded towards information that we are not used to. Just because the Portuguese discovery of Australia is not mainstream in English-language literature, does not mean it is inaccurate. Just because the Torres discovery is not "generally accepted" nowadays does not mean it should be ruled out. Let the reader decide that for himself. A short mention of these two possible discoveries and a link does not in any way harm the article. What's more, it contributes to it. JCRB (talk) 18:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I've said my bit for now, I'm sure the many other contributors to this page have an opinion too.Nickm57 (talk) 23:37, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yes and I agree. JCRB, there is simply no scope for discussion of these obscure matters in this summary article, as to do so would run up against Wikipedia's policies about due and undue weight. — cj | talk 06:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. I think I've produced sufficient sources to justify at least a small reference to the prior discoveries. These are not "obscure matters" but verifiable information which is relevant to the article. JCRB (talk) 16:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- It's quite irrelevant, because whether it happened of not, it had no bearing on the creation of the Australia we know today, and has had no effect on Australia's development. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:31, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- Still, it's part of Australia's history. JCRB (talk) 17:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- That may be so, but it is in no way of such importance that it deserves a spot in the summary of Australia's history, a short summary at that. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- I've been watching these discussions with interest and while I didn't really want to get involved I'm forced to because that dead horse is really starting to stink. I have to agree with the arguments presented by others, there's really no place for mention of this in this article. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
- Totally agree with above. There has not been any consensus to add the info, despite pages of discussion. Dead horse.--Dmol (talk) 07:34, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
- I've been watching these discussions with interest and while I didn't really want to get involved I'm forced to because that dead horse is really starting to stink. I have to agree with the arguments presented by others, there's really no place for mention of this in this article. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
- That may be so, but it is in no way of such importance that it deserves a spot in the summary of Australia's history, a short summary at that. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- Still, it's part of Australia's history. JCRB (talk) 17:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't say a constructive discussion "stinks". All of this is useful information about Australia's early history. As for the "dead horse"(?) the long discussion was about Etymology. That's over. This discussion is about prior discoveries. Please don't try to kill the discussion just because you don't agree. JCRB (talk) 21:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
"Australia has strong international teams in cricket..."
Is this still the case? Given that the men's team is no longer ranked in the top four of the ten "test cricket nations". In addition I note that the criteria used for suggesting that Australia is "strong" at the sport relates to the one day form of the game which many expert commentators is now suggesting is becoming moribund. Silent Billy (talk) 22:16, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, no longer in the top four, but they're still in the top ten, out of the 200 or so countries in the world. Sure, most don't play international cricket, but it's still a pretty strong position. I would draw a parallel with a game like baseball. Beyond the top three or four countries, baseball would be a minor sport, but we would probably still say that the fifth best team is a strong one (out of 200). HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- Also, consider that wikipedia is meant to take a long-term view. Australia has for many decades been strong interenational side. A recent fall in form is just that - recent. Perhaps the article wording could be tweaked to something like "long been a strong international team" or similiar. see WP:RECENT. --Merbabu (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm with Merbabu, per RECENT, with a reference that says that Aust has historically been a strong cricket team. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- You guys waste too much of your lunch money YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm with Merbabu, per RECENT, with a reference that says that Aust has historically been a strong cricket team. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- Also, consider that wikipedia is meant to take a long-term view. Australia has for many decades been strong interenational side. A recent fall in form is just that - recent. Perhaps the article wording could be tweaked to something like "long been a strong international team" or similiar. see WP:RECENT. --Merbabu (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Independance
It states that Australia has independance from the UK. I don't feel this is technically correct. Should we change this?Rtc872 (talk) 10:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)criosdaidh
- Australia is a fully independent sovereign state with no constitutional ties to the United Kingdom. Australia, Canada and a dozen other realms simply share the same monarch. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:58, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
- This hasn't always been the case. In fact, it's indisputably been the case only since 3 March 1986, less than a quarter of a century ago. And ask a random Australian what the effects of the Australia Act 1986 were, he'll likely say "The what acts?". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 12:31, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
First sighting of Australia by Queiros
According to some sources, the first European to see the Australian continent was Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós (Quiros in Spanish) who sailed the South Pacific in 1605. The members of his expedition saw the northern tip of Australia, though they did not make landfall. Quirós landed on a large island which he took to be part of the southern continent, and named it La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo (The Austrian Land of the Holy Spirit), for King Philip III, who belonged to the House of Habsburg or House of Austria. The island was in fact in the New Hebrides archipelago, today the country of Vanuatu. The island is still called Espiritu Santo. This information is not in the article. I have therefore included the following sentences:
- Etymology section: In 1606 Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós sailing on a Spanish expedition arrived in Espiritu Santo and named the island "La Austrialia [5] del Espiritu Santo".
- History section: European explorers first sighted Australia in the early 17th century. Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandez de Queirós, who led a Spanish expedition to the South Pacific in 1605, was probably the first European to see the Australian continent[6] [7]. The Torres Strait is named after Luis Váez de Torres, a member of the Queiros expedition. However, the first recorded European sighting of the mainland and the first landfall were attributed to the Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon...
The discovery of Australia is contested between Dutch explorer Willem Janszoon and Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandez de Queiros. There are references for both interpretations, all of them reliable. This is why I suggest using the term "probably" when mentioning Queiros' first sighting of the Australian mainland. JCRB (talk) 13:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, JCRB, but I don't this is appropriate. I just took a look at some parts of Richardson on Google Books. Richardson's thesis appears to be that these claims re de Queirós are likely to be untrue - the source should not be misconstrued in the WP article. Moran's pamphlet is useless as a source and should not be quoted at all. The lack of scholarly credence for this theory is reflected in the Australian Government's culture portal making no mention of it. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:42, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
- Point 1 (Etymology Section). I am waiting to hear comments about this fact.
- Point 2 (History Section) Richardson says that the masses supposedly said on Australian soil were in fact said on Espiritu Santo. Therefore Moran's claims that Queiros made landfall are probably untrue, I agree. However, my point is not about landfall, but about the first sighting of the Australian continent. Richardson clearly says:
- "Torres certainly sailed through the strait that bears his name in 1606 and may possibly have seen the tip of Cape York in the distance..." (page 20, "Was Australia Chartered before 1606?" by W.A.R. Richardson)
- This means there is a reasonable possibility that Torres, part of the Queiros expedition, sighted Australia before the Dutch. Also, let me add that a government's failure to mention a historical event on their website is no proof whatsoever that such an event did not take place. I can show you many official websites which ignore or forget significant events in their history. JCRB (talk) 11:04, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- "May possibly have" does not mean there is a reasonable possibility that somebody who landed 2,700km away thinking that he was still in Australia actually saw the country. At best it's giving him the benefiot of the doubt. --AussieLegend (talk) 11:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. It's tempting to believe that there were European discoverers before Janszoon, but we do not know for certain that there were any other before him. You cannot accord a "reasonable possibility" with the status of "historical event". And that is certainly why the Australian Government does not recognise any claim prior to Janszoon's - there is no proof, just some vague possibilities. In relation to Queiros, you've gone from "probably" down to "may possibly" and "a reasonable possibility". On that basis, we may as well include an equally "reasonable possibility", the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia, which holds that the continent was discovered in 1521, a full 85 years before Janszoon. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with Jack. Going back to your Etymological point: we should only include this if there is any demonstrated link between de Queirós's naming of what is now Vanuatu and the name later given to the southern continent, Australia. While the two look very similar, that does not mean there are etymological or historical links. The continent's name derives from word/s meaning "southern", whereas "Austrialia" appears derived from "Austria". As far as I can see, we are dealing with a superficial similarity that has no basis in etymology. But I'm happy to be corrected. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:44, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. It's tempting to believe that there were European discoverers before Janszoon, but we do not know for certain that there were any other before him. You cannot accord a "reasonable possibility" with the status of "historical event". And that is certainly why the Australian Government does not recognise any claim prior to Janszoon's - there is no proof, just some vague possibilities. In relation to Queiros, you've gone from "probably" down to "may possibly" and "a reasonable possibility". On that basis, we may as well include an equally "reasonable possibility", the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia, which holds that the continent was discovered in 1521, a full 85 years before Janszoon. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- "May possibly have" does not mean there is a reasonable possibility that somebody who landed 2,700km away thinking that he was still in Australia actually saw the country. At best it's giving him the benefiot of the doubt. --AussieLegend (talk) 11:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments. Again, I am not arguing that Torres or Queiros sighted Australia for certain before the Dutch, rather, that this possibility exists, and that it should be mentioned. Regarding the Portuguese discovery of Australia in 1522, yes I have read about that. They called it Jave La Grande ("Jave the Great") and there are 16th century maps of a coast very similar to the Australian coast with Portuguese names on it. Maybe this should also be mentioned with a link to the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia.
Regarding the Etymology of Australia, I think the issue needs no further explanation: In "A note of Australia del Espíritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt and published by Samuel Purchas in Hakluytus Posthumus" English writer Richard Hakluyt talks about Espiritu Santo island, discovered by Queiros in 1606 which he called "Austrialia del Espiritu Santo". Queiros belived he was in Australia. What part of that historical and etymological link don't you see? JCRB (talk) 13:31, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- No, no, no. It's not that there was known to be a large land mass with the name of Australia, and all any explorer had to do was actually find it. That's not it at all. There was believed to be a large southern land mass. It did not have a name, because its very existence was only in the realm of fantasy and postulation. Queros sighted the place we now call Vanuatu. He called it Austrialia del Spiritu Santo - a reference to Austria, nowhere else. The etymology of the word "Austria" is from a German word that means "east" (of Germany); it's Österreich in German (Öster-reich = Eastern Realm), which was rendered in Latin as Austria. It has nothing to do with the Latin australis, meaning "south", which was the basis of the name of Australia. The fact that Queiros believed (mistakenly) he'd found the Great Southern Land, and the name he gave to that place, have nothing to do with the name later given to the actual Great Southern Land. There is a superficial similarity, that's all. The confusion of Austria with Australia is something we take modern-day Americans to task for all the time. Please let's not have it making an appearance here. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:30, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oh I get it. You're saying it's pure coincidence that "Austr-i-alia del Espiritu Santo" (name given by Queiros) and "Australia del Espiritu Santo" (first recorded use of the word Australia in English) are almost identical? Oh, I see. That's a really convincing argument. JCRB (talk) 19:01, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
- Quite a bit of confusion happening here.
- In February 1606, Janszoon landed on Cape York near Weipa, the first definitely known landfall by a European on Australian soil. He thought this was a continuation of New Guinea. He did not realise he had stumbled upon the Great Southern Land.
- In May 1606, Queiros discovered a group of islands to the south-east of New Guinea. He named them Austrialia del Espiritu Santo, in honour of his patron, who was of the royal house of Austria. Although he believed and claimed he’d discovered the Great Southern Land or Terra Australis (he hadn’t – he’d discovered Vanuatu), at no time did he ever give it a name that actually means that or anything like that.
- It is a pure coincidence that the Latin word for southern (australis) and the German word for eastern (öster, and its derivatives in Latin: Austria, Austrialia; which have given us the English name of that country, Austria) are so similar and easily confused. Blame Queiros for not picking his name more judiciously. It has no doubt contributed to the absolute furphy that Queiros landed near Gladstone, Qld, and was the "true" discoverer of Australia. There is no evidence that Queiros ever came within a bull’s roar of Australia.
- Even if Queiros did actually land on Australian soil, of which hypothesis there is no evidence, Janszoon beat him by 3 months anyway.
- When Hakluyt wrote in 1625 about "Australia del Espíritu Santo", he was certainly referring to the discovery made by Queiros (i.e. Vanuatu). He did not exactly copy Queiros’s spelling, but they were less strict in those days about such things. Despite what some old history textbooks might have said, the terms "Austrialia del Espíritu Santo" or "Australia del Espíritu Santo" have never been directly applied to the landmass now known as Australia. They have always referred to what was believed to be the Great Southern Land (which we now know as Australia), but what is actually Vanuatu. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:40, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
- Quite a bit of confusion happening here.
No, no confusion at all. If the "first recorded use of the word Australia in English" was in "A note of Australia del Espíritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt and published by Samuel Purchas in Hakluytus Posthumus", then the article should say where this name came from. Regardless of where they were (Queiros was indeed in Vanuatu) the point is the name "Australia del Espiritu Santo" came from Queiros' expedition, which landed in Espiritu Santo and called the island that way (thinking he was in mainland Australia). A short sentence mentioning this should be enough. That's all. JCRB (talk) 03:37, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- It's probably not coincidence, but due to the same etymological background of the word. Europeans had thought there was a great "terra australis" for ages. It was on medieval maps and the like, although just as a large blob. When they found land in the south, they named it after this. I believe the first use of Australia in English is often claimed to be by Matthew Flinders, though I'm sure someone knows more than me. If someone finds some random island and calls it the southern land, that doesn't really relate to Australia at all. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 05:15, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- True, Europeans thought there was a Terra australis incognita since long ago, and the first European to claim the discovery (though mistakenly) and to give it a name (La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo), was Queiros in 1606. This name was later used by Richard Hakluyt in 1625. JCRB (talk) 12:55, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
- JCRB, you say "Queiros' expedition, which landed in Espiritu Santo and called the island that way (thinking he was in mainland Australia)" as though he named it after Terra Australis when in actual fact, as JackofOz has repeatedly noted, he named the island in honour of his royal patrons, the Habsburgs of Austria. You cannot claim that the word Australia derives from this Austrialia, or that the corruption of Austrialia in an obscure 17th century document in anyway contributed to the later use of Australia. I'll agree, though, that if we are to mention this earliest recorded instance of Australia in a published text, then we need also to say "where this name came from" — and that is as a corruption Austrialia. In an etymology section of an overview article, we do not and should not be delving into (unsubstantiated) theories of alternate discovery. — cj | talk 05:40, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
I have once more removed the contested information because as far as I can see, there is not any consensus for its addition. It is a reference to a totally different place thousands of miles away.--Dmol (talk) 12:07, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- I would encourage editors who oppose including the sentence on Queiros and Australia del Espiritu Santo to explain their arguments here, instead of threatening to block editors for "potential" edit-warring. I would like to see what type of arguments are used in the face of verifiable information. JCRB (talk) 20:09, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- The reasons have been explained ad nauseum and in great detail above. There is no consensus to add this information. It appears that you are the only editor seeking to add it.--Dmol (talk) 20:56, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
- I need to be convinced that the use of a word meaning east (AustrIalia) has anything to do with a word meaning south (Australis). HiLo48 (talk) 21:08, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Dmol, the reasons have not been explained ad nauseam. The expression "ad nauseam" applies to very long, unproductive and tiresome discussions. We have only started discussing the Etymology issue recently. I wish you provided reasonable arguments beyond "there is no consensus".
CJ, I partly agree with you, and I appreciate your reasoning. If the article mentions the earlist recorded use of the word in English, it should also say "where this name came from". I also think that it should say who gave it this name: navigator Pedro Fernandes Queiros who landed in the main island of Vanuatu, thinking he was on mainland Terra Australis. By the way, the Spanish article on Australia says that "Austr-i-alia" has a double etymological root: "Austria" (for the Habsburgs of Austria, the Spanish dynasty of the time) and "Austral" meaning southern (Queiros was searching for Terra Australis or "Southern Land"). The combined "Austrialia" was later corrupted or translated incorrectly to English as "Australia" [10] JCRB (talk) 14:11, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
- No, we do not need to talk about Queirós, because what we are talking about from an etymological point of view is the earliest recorded use of the word Australia. This earliest recorded use was not by Queirós, but by a writer describing the island and corrupting its name. To delve deeper into the matter is to dapple in a history of Vanuatu and Spanish exploration. That is not our interest here. As to your "double etymology" idea, I'm unconvinced, and the burden is with you to prove it. — cj | talk 00:56, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
- Again, I have to agree only partially. Yes, the double etymology hypothesis needs to be proven. However, I disagree that mentioning Queiros as the navigator who gave Australia an early version of its name, later corrupted by Master Hakluyt, is "to dapple in a history of Vanuatu and Spanish exploration". Queiros was not in a random island he decided to call "Austrialia". He was on an island he believed was Australia. The link between the name and the land he thought he had reached, cannot be ignored. JCRB (talk) 10:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
- All the Queiros thought he found was some mythical southern land, which had nothing to do with modern australia except that both navigators thought they found a southern land mass. The move from "Australis" to "Australia" was probably not a big step. This source [11] by the australian government says that Flinders thought of it himself. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
- There seems to be an element of not hearing the arguments, though JCRB has certainly continued to engage on the talk page and (mostly) not in the article mainspace. I am still seeing no link between the two superficially similar names, and therefore no need for discussion in a section on the etymology of "Australia". Look at it from a different angle: if a lay reader who knew nothing of the subject read about Queros's name for Vanuatu, would they be given a better understanding of the historical origin of the country's name? No. Because it isn't where the name came from. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:03, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
- I really think this argument is exhausted. You say "the link between the name and the land he thought he had reached, cannot be ignored." But the point is, there is no link - not without proof that he named the island in the fashion of Terra Australis. The available evidence shows that he in fact named them for the Hapsburgs of Austria. Etymologically, the only relevance this has for this article is that the superficial similarity Austrialia and Australia caused one writer to mistakenly use the later in reference to the former, and that this mistake was the first recorded instance of Australia. — cj | talk 06:59, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
- Yup, well and truly dead and flogged --Merbabu (talk) 09:53, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
- All the Queiros thought he found was some mythical southern land, which had nothing to do with modern australia except that both navigators thought they found a southern land mass. The move from "Australis" to "Australia" was probably not a big step. This source [11] by the australian government says that Flinders thought of it himself. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:50, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
- Again, I have to agree only partially. Yes, the double etymology hypothesis needs to be proven. However, I disagree that mentioning Queiros as the navigator who gave Australia an early version of its name, later corrupted by Master Hakluyt, is "to dapple in a history of Vanuatu and Spanish exploration". Queiros was not in a random island he decided to call "Austrialia". He was on an island he believed was Australia. The link between the name and the land he thought he had reached, cannot be ignored. JCRB (talk) 10:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
I agree with that. The current sentence should be sufficient. Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- See new section belowNickm57 (talk) 23:25, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Cleaned up Intro
I have made several changes to clean up and streamline the slightly unwieldly intro, bringing the format slightly closer to what's used for most other countries.
In the table to right, under independence, I removed statute of westminster, leaving statutue of westminster adoption act -- this is because it is only when we adopted the statute that it came into effect here.
In the intro, I merged the two middle paragraphs on the history of the commonwealth, as the break was undeeded - it is one paragraph summarising the country's history. The pronunciation key was unnecessarily large, with four different renditions of the word Australia -- too much for a short intro paragraph. Following the example for the Canada page, I used in the intro only the first pronunciation, native to australia, as they have used the canadian one -- and left out the subsequent american and british pronunciations that were previously and unnecessarily in the first line of the article, making it unwieldly and difficult to navigate.
I also added into the last paragraph which tends to be about the particular nation's significance, the fact we are Oceania's sole Regional power as other nations ie UK Japan South Korea Brazil put their status as a Great power or Regional power into their equivalent of this paragraph. I also included our military expenditure rank, as this is also a convention used by many other nations in their equivalent paragraph. Where it said "largely self-governing colonies" I added the link to the specific term for it, which was that the colonies were given the right to Responsible government by the UK govt (see sections on Australia and Colonies with Responsible Government for details). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saruman-the-white (talk • contribs) 08:15, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- I feel like reverting it again. This is a FA, and the other countires are not; particularly articles on Asian countries shouldn't be used as a model, as they are often flooded by nationalists who keep on wanting to stick photos of tanks, missiles, skyscrapers everywhere and pretend their country is a superpower. eg on the India page, which is supposed to be a FA, there are always these SPAs who want to put nukes and skyscrapers everywhere, and no slums. similar for the pak article.... Being a middle/super/regional power is vague and more or less useless, and the stuff about military expenditute is nonsense. I don't know whether those stats account for the cost of living, but lots of countries lie and say they are not spending much; there is no way that Australia with 50k troops and a handful of jets is remotely militarily influential, paranoid, aggressive, ambitious, prepared, en garde, toey etc YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:35, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not a fan either. (and nice summary of some Asian country pages, by the way) --Merbabu (talk) 09:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not a fan either and actually have reverted some of the changes. Stating that Australia has no official language is just as important as stating the official language if we had one. There have been enough discussions over the past few years to indicate that the section is important. Changing from "English language" to "Australian English" is going against the consensus from a previous, and fairly recent discussion, now archived at Talk:Australia/Archive 15#Is "Ozzie" superfluous? "Australian English" or English? I actually support Australian English but we don't go against consensus. Similarly, reorganisation and removal of various acts goes against consensus from an earlier discussion. This consensus was explained to Saruman-the-white in a discussion he initiated only last month, so changing the section now, regardless of that discussion does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. --AussieLegend (talk) 09:28, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not a fan either. (and nice summary of some Asian country pages, by the way) --Merbabu (talk) 09:10, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- I feel like reverting it again. This is a FA, and the other countires are not; particularly articles on Asian countries shouldn't be used as a model, as they are often flooded by nationalists who keep on wanting to stick photos of tanks, missiles, skyscrapers everywhere and pretend their country is a superpower. eg on the India page, which is supposed to be a FA, there are always these SPAs who want to put nukes and skyscrapers everywhere, and no slums. similar for the pak article.... Being a middle/super/regional power is vague and more or less useless, and the stuff about military expenditute is nonsense. I don't know whether those stats account for the cost of living, but lots of countries lie and say they are not spending much; there is no way that Australia with 50k troops and a handful of jets is remotely militarily influential, paranoid, aggressive, ambitious, prepared, en garde, toey etc YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:35, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
change what you feel necessary then. I was mainly modeling the last para with the regional power, military expenditure on the UK article not those of asian countries. You're correct that many nations probably mis-report their military expenditure, but I was just using the only official figures there are which are used across wiki. Yes I agree with you about nationalists on many tinpot country's pages and I think this should be avoided, but I also think she shouldn't be unsswervingly self-loathing PC leftists who don't acknowledge achievments that have indeed been made. I'm sure you wont have any problems with the first and second para though. That was for example removing "remains a commonwealth realm", as that is mentioned in the third para in organisations we are members of, so this shouldnt be mentioned twice in the intro alone, as well as finding the correct term for "largely self governing colonies" and streamlining it a bit. If you feel strongly about the third one though go ahead. RE the dates in the independence section, I thought I was arguing before for removing all of the additional ones? But okay, that's not such a pressing issue anyway. I took out the mention of most of the population living in syd melb bris perth adelaide in the intro and just said urban areas on the coast as the former seemed too detailed and specific for the intro, and also ignores the fact that apart from those 5 largest ones, just about all the other urban areas in australia bar canberra (if that counts as major) are also on the coast. I replaced aust has maintained a "liberal democracy" and changed it to "federal parliamentary democracy" as this is the specific term used for the political system. Saruman-the-white (talk) 09:38, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
- Oh I don't think it is self-loathing, as it mentions stuff about the public education/health and other good grassroots stuff. It should mention low corruption too I think. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 00:58, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Where it says we have maintained a "liberal democratic political system", if we're talking about the political system (which we should in the intro) shouldn't we just use the correct term for what our political system is, which it says in the table, which is that we have maintained a "federal parliamentary democracy". Also in the organisations we are a member of in the third para, it lists commonwealth of nations, so mentioning that in that sentence in the second sentence about what we've remained is also quite unnecessary as once is enoug.Saruman-the-white (talk) 02:45, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Edit request from MelbGuy1, 29 September 2010
{{edit semi-protected}}
as of august 2010 australia's unemployment rate is 5.1 percent, reference link: http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/6202.0
MelbGuy1 (talk) 22:09, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Done Thanks, Stickee (talk) 00:05, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
re: biggest worldwide selling albums missing
If Opera and Symphony's get a paragraph, contemporary music deserves a mention.
referring to wiki... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_worldwide
ACDC's back in black is the second biggest selling album of all time, the Bee Gee's ranked 9th with Saturday Night Fever. There are other notable internationally acclaimed musicians (eg. kylie minogue, olivia newton john, inxs, jet). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.190.211.91 (talk) 18:26, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
The theory of Portuguese discovery and Torres...
- For the sake of clarity I've created a new section and included some of the discussion from above, that had moved into this topic. Hope you dont mind, JCRBNickm57 (talk) 23:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
- Surely you mean to suggest "first sighting by Torres"? Quiros was on his way back to Mexico when Torres was navigating the strait that now bears his name. Quiros could not be said to still be in command of an expedition that he had abandoned! My view is Torres' success was remarkable, and I think Brett Hilder has established a high likelyhood that Torres did see the tip of what is now Cape York. However, its clear from existing records that (if they did see Cape York) the Spanish did not recognise the land they saw for what it was. Thus, the sighting, if it occurred, contributed nothing to European knowledge of the world. This is also Mike Pearson's thinking about the contentious Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia- if it happened, it contributed nothing to "expand European knowledge of Australia, the portrayal of Jave La Grande having no greater status that any other conjectural portrayal of Terra Australis." For that reason, I feel its not appropriate to mention either in the short summary on this page. Both Torres, Quiros and "the Theory..." all have detailed pages of their own! Nickm57 (talk) 22:10, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
Nickm57, yes, I meant the "first sighting by Torres" who was part of Queiros' original expedition. Indeed, there are different sources which prove this first sighting. You mentioned Brett Hilder and his "high likelyhood" that this ocurred. There are other sources. In The First Discovery of Australia and New Guinea (1906) [12] the author, George Collingridge says:
- "Sailing along the shores of the islands to the north of Australia, between Cape York and Prince of Wales Island, Torres regained the coast of New Guinea [...] He had discovered Australia without being aware of the fact, and had completed the Spanish circumnavigation of New Guinea."
See this map for the full route of Torres [13]. In a timeline at the end of the book, Collingridge also writes: "1606. Torres sails towards Australia from the New Hebrides, passes through the straits that bear his name, and discovers Australia, without, apparently, being aware of the fact." So according to this historian Torres was the first European to sight Australia (and to sail its waters) although he did not make landfall.
Regarding the prior discovery of Australia by the Portuguese, there are also a number of sources which prove this, largely based on the Dieppe maps, specially this one [14] and this one [15] which show the Australian landmass south of Java and Sumatra, but farther to the east. In the same work Collingridge explains that these maps were purposely distorted by the Portuguese so that Australia appeared in the hemisphere assigned to Portugal by Pope Alexander (in the Treaty of Tordesillas). Collingridge provides an interesting illustration comparing the real and the fictitious location of Australia here [16]. He also explains:
- "the Portuguese, who were the first to make discoveries in these seas, must have been perfectly aware that the coasts they had charted lay more to the east, and if they dragged them out of position and placed them under Java as shown in these maps, it was in order to secure to themselves the lion's share, for their line of demarcation, as fixed by Pope Alexander".
So according to the above information, both Torres (in 1606) and the Portuguese (in the 16th century) arrived in Australia before the Dutch. Whether they made this knowledge available to other Europeans or not, is not really the point. Many discoveries were kept secret during the 16th and 17th centuries so that competing nations did not threaten trade or power in the newly discovered regions. Regarding the fictitious position of Australia in the above-mentioned map, this is what Spanish pilot Juan Gaetan said about the Portuguese charts:
- "I saw and knew all their charts. They were all cunningly falsified, with longitudes and latitudes distorted, and land-features drawn in at places and stretched out at others to suit their purposes, etc., etc., and when they found out that I understood their little pranks they made strenuous efforts to get me to enlist in their service, and made me advantageous offers, which, however, I scorned to accept"' [17]
So clearly it was customary to protect valuable information like maps and trade routes by keeping them secret and even falsifying documents. With this in mind, it seems highly probably that the Portuguese arrived Australia in the 16th century. Therefore, the article should mention both of these prior discoveries. JCRB (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
- Scope of the history section in this article.
- A WP article on Australia, in its short history summary section, should not need to include reference to unsubstantiated or speculative matters, and this includes suggestions of voyages by the Portuguese. The full History of Australia and European exploration of Australia articles, linked from this page, do make passing mention of this theory. The same applies to speculation about what Torres may have seen, even though his voyage was documented.
- My benchmark for whether it’s appropriate to mention this theory in this article is still based on Mike Pearson’s comment. Whether such sightings occurred or not, they went unrecorded and were not exploited or celebrated. They contributed nothing to European knowledge of Australia, and therefore are at best, curiosities of our own history.
- Many reading this discussion will have contributed to articles on European exploration of Australia and read Collingridge’s works of the late 19th century. May I recommend to interested Wikipedians some of the more recent writers like Bill Richardson, Gayle K. Brunelle and Robert King. I think this is where informed contemporary thinking is, on the Dieppe maps and any possible connection to Australia. Nickm57 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
- By the way JCRB – you suggest "many other' discoveries of the 16th and 17th century were kept secret. I would have more sympathy for your argument to include this topic if I could think of any comparable secret discoveries! On the contrary, I suggest most "new world" geographical discoveries were blabbed about in 16th and 17th century Europe very quickly! Nickm57 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Generally unknown discoveries: European maritime expeditions from the Age of Exploration up to the 18th century were usually kept secret to prevent rival powers from gaining access to profitable trade, or from establishing bases that would threaten their colonies. This meant either locking away the documents that recorded the discovery, or distorting the charts as I explained above. Discussing 18th century Spanish travel literature, Professor Garcia Sanchez from Eastern Washington University writes:
- "Although the production of [Spanish] narrative was very abundant, due to the secretiveness the Borbonic government kept on those explorations, they didn’t have a lot of popular acknowledgement like similar narratives in the rest of Europe".
There are territories which the Portuguese or the Spanish discovered in the 16th century, but due to the policy of discretion this has not been acknowledged sufficiently. In territories where a different European power eventually took over, this is specially the case. For example, according to this theory Hawaii was probably discovered by the Spanish in 1555. See also this article[18]. The discovery of the Spice Islands or Moluccas was also kept secret by the Portuguese for a few decades until the unification of Spain and Portugal under the Iberian Union. The route of the Manila Galleons itself was kept rigorously secret for almost its full duration (1565-1815) allowing the Viceroyalty of New Spain and the Casa de Contratacion to operate a transpacific monopoly between the Philippines and the Americas undisturbed for at least one century. So not all discoveries were disclosed. In fact, documents of exploration such as logbooks and maps were sometimes locked away for a very long time. According to this book [4] (quoting the WP article) "the Hawaiian islands were not known to have any valuable resources, so the Spanish would have not made an effort to settle them". The same thing happened to the Mariana Islands (specially Guam) discovered by Magellan in 1521, and visited by various explorers afterwards (among them Legazpi and Urdaneta in 1565) but not settled until 1668.
Scope of the history section: As for the scope of the history section, I think we need to be more open-minded towards information that we are not used to. Just because the Portuguese discovery of Australia is not mainstream in English-language literature, does not mean it is inaccurate. Just because the Torres discovery is not "generally accepted" nowadays does not mean it should be ruled out. Let the reader decide that for himself. A short mention of these two possible discoveries and a link does not in any way harm the article. What's more, it contributes to it. JCRB (talk) 18:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I've said my bit for now, I'm sure the many other contributors to this page have an opinion too.Nickm57 (talk) 23:37, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yes and I agree. JCRB, there is simply no scope for discussion of these obscure matters in this summary article, as to do so would run up against Wikipedia's policies about due and undue weight. — cj | talk 06:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. I think I've produced sufficient sources to justify at least a small reference to the prior discoveries. These are not "obscure matters" but verifiable information which is relevant to the article. JCRB (talk) 16:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- It's quite irrelevant, because whether it happened of not, it had no bearing on the creation of the Australia we know today, and has had no effect on Australia's development. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:31, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- Still, it's part of Australia's history. JCRB (talk) 17:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- That may be so, but it is in no way of such importance that it deserves a spot in the summary of Australia's history, a short summary at that. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- I've been watching these discussions with interest and while I didn't really want to get involved I'm forced to because that dead horse is really starting to stink. I have to agree with the arguments presented by others, there's really no place for mention of this in this article. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
- Totally agree with above. There has not been any consensus to add the info, despite pages of discussion. Dead horse.--Dmol (talk) 07:34, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
- I've been watching these discussions with interest and while I didn't really want to get involved I'm forced to because that dead horse is really starting to stink. I have to agree with the arguments presented by others, there's really no place for mention of this in this article. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
- That may be so, but it is in no way of such importance that it deserves a spot in the summary of Australia's history, a short summary at that. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
- Still, it's part of Australia's history. JCRB (talk) 17:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't say a constructive discussion "stinks". All of this is useful information about Australia's early history. As for the "dead horse"(?) the long discussion was about Etymology. That's over. This discussion is about prior discoveries. Please don't try to kill the discussion just because you don't agree. JCRB (talk) 21:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
"Australia has strong international teams in cricket..."
Is this still the case? Given that the men's team is no longer ranked in the top four of the ten "test cricket nations". In addition I note that the criteria used for suggesting that Australia is "strong" at the sport relates to the one day form of the game which many expert commentators is now suggesting is becoming moribund. Silent Billy (talk) 22:16, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, no longer in the top four, but they're still in the top ten, out of the 200 or so countries in the world. Sure, most don't play international cricket, but it's still a pretty strong position. I would draw a parallel with a game like baseball. Beyond the top three or four countries, baseball would be a minor sport, but we would probably still say that the fifth best team is a strong one (out of 200). HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- Also, consider that wikipedia is meant to take a long-term view. Australia has for many decades been strong interenational side. A recent fall in form is just that - recent. Perhaps the article wording could be tweaked to something like "long been a strong international team" or similiar. see WP:RECENT. --Merbabu (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm with Merbabu, per RECENT, with a reference that says that Aust has historically been a strong cricket team. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- You guys waste too much of your lunch money YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- I'm with Merbabu, per RECENT, with a reference that says that Aust has historically been a strong cricket team. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- Also, consider that wikipedia is meant to take a long-term view. Australia has for many decades been strong interenational side. A recent fall in form is just that - recent. Perhaps the article wording could be tweaked to something like "long been a strong international team" or similiar. see WP:RECENT. --Merbabu (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
- ^ See accounts of the voyage cited, eg Estensen, M (2006)
- ^ Moran, cited in Richardson, W.A.R. (2006) Was Australia charted before 1606? p. 20. National Library of Australia ISBN 0642 276420
- ^ Cardinal Moran's Discovery of Australia by de Quirós in the Year 1606 [19]
- ^ a b Kane, Herb Kawainui (1996). "The Manila Galleons". In Bob Dye (ed.). Hawaiʻ Chronicles: Island History from the Pages of Honolulu Magazine. Vol. I. Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press. pp. 25–32. ISBN 0-8248-1829-6.
- ^ See accounts of the voyage cited, eg Estensen, M (2006)
- ^ Moran, cited in Richardson, W.A.R. (2006) Was Australia charted before 1606? p. 20. National Library of Australia ISBN 0642 276420
- ^ Cardinal Moran's Discovery of Australia by de Quirós in the Year 1606 [20]
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