Talk:Tea Party movement

Funding

Lets make clear that a large chunk of funding comes the oil and gas industry through billonaires such as Koch:

"It likes to present itself as a grassroots insurgency made up of hundreds of local groups intent on toppling the Washington elite.

But the Tea Party movement, which is threatening to cause an upset in next month's midterm elections, would not be where it is today without the backing of that most traditional of US political supporters – Big Oil.

The billionaire brothers who own Koch Industries, a private company with 70,000 employees and annual revenues of $100bn (£62bn), used to joke that they controlled the biggest company nobody had ever heard of.

Not any more. After decades during which their fortune grew exponentially and they channelled millions of dollars to rightwing causes, Charles and David Koch are finally getting noticed for their part in the extraordinary growth of the Tea Party movement."

[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.195.122.243 (talk) 09:43, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Current Pro-Tea Party bias

This article seems extremely biased in favor of the tea party movement. I see no images of the hundreds of recorded racist signs and slogans or the various audio available of racial slurs being used in chants. This article is vary hush hush on the darker side of this movement. There is also no mention in this article of any of the arrests of tea party members for assault or harassment. There is little mention of the tea party's collaboration with scientology, or any mention of the ludicrous amounts of money scientology has given the tea party. Wikipedia is way better then this and is by their own words committed to neutrality and this article is just anything but neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.159.28 (talk) 23:33, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Maybe because they don't exist??? Andrew Breibart has offered a $10,000 reward for hard evidence of the alleged "racist slogans" and so far nobody has collected. Breitbart's article exposing the race baiting tactics you are espousing, and his announcement of the reward can be found here: 2010: A Race Odyssey - Disproving a Negative for Cash Prizes, or How the Civil Rights Movement Jumped the Shark

heres another one for you, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S38VioxnBaI&feature=related. 5 minute long video full of racist tea party signs. Who knows if racists represent the tea party or if the tea party is a racially motivated movement(it sure isnt a fact based movement) but i do think its worth noting the overwhelming racial tendencies of tea party demonstrators. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.125.196.76 (talk) 07:13, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

OMG! Andrew Breitbart?? Really? This Andrew Breibart?: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/01/rnc-cancels-breitbart-fundraiser/?fbid=fI3vSfBraBh The guy who admitted to manipulating the video to smear Shirley Sherrod? That in itself was a racist move to generate white resentment. I can't believe you are quoting him to defend the teabaggers.

PS.. how come no information of the slavery letter in this article: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2010/07/mcconnell-on-tea-party-racism.html155.95.80.253 (talk) 13:32, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

If you have hard evidence, you can make yourself a cool 10 grand...DrHenley (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:27, 16 July 2010 (UTC).

henley are you for real? Really? no racist slogans? Have you actualy been to one of these events or god forbid did a image search?

http://washingtonindependent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/teapartypic.jpg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRJ2UmyHhxI http://thinkprogress.org/2010/07/14/tea-party-racism/

There I would like my "cool 10 grand" Or was that part of your pathetic attempt to troll this article as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.159.28 (talk) 01:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

http://thinkingmeat.net/wp-content/uploads/teapartysign1sm.jpg Here is another racist sign, calling obama a monkey. My argument is that because the over whelming majority of the tea party has rather extreme and often racist and hateful slogans, there should at least be mention of that in the article. This article reads like its heavily policed by actual tea party people, much like the scientology article was very one sided before people started to take notice. I am not saying this article is of the same magnitude, however I am saying if somebody who knows little about the tea party where to read this article they would still not know very much about what they really are. The whole anti-tax stuff they go on about despite the fact that 90% of them are in a tax bracket that has the most tax cuts BECAUSE of obama. That is something worth mentioning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.159.28 (talk) 14:30, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

So why is it the pictures of President Bush morphed into a chimpanzee and the far left commonly referring to the President as "the chimp" is protected political speech. Not just protected free speech but an act of patriotic duty to be admired by all. But when President Obama gets the same treatment it is racism. In fact just disagreeing with the President or his policies can win that label for your very own. I've covered a number of Tea Party gatherings. The racist signs and comments are from a very tiny minority of those present. In a couple cases I saw event organizers remove the offending people from the event. Yes, there are probably some racists among those supporting the Tea Party. Yes, that may well be something worthy of note in the article. But that does not make tea party supporters racists anymore then Rev. Wright makes President Obama a racist. In fairness, if the racist angle is to be included, then that is the way it should be written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CrystalRiverWhiskey (talk • contribs) 22:11, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

This is one of the most incendiary that I've seen. (Picture is uncensored on this site.) BigK HeX (talk) 05:53, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Right, that's one illiterate and racist bastard. Why is he on this talk page? Hate to point out the obvious, but every organization or movement has uneducated racists. Hell, sometimes they're well-educated (I live near a popular Black Liberation Theology church on the south side of Chicago). Anyways, I hope we're not pushing inclusion in some way (guessing if the photo was not already copyrighted, it would be here). We should try not to deface halfway decent wiki articles for kicks, or POV. Don't you agree? †TE†Talk 06:16, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

"Deface"? Even ignoring WP:NOT#CENSORED, are you trying to say that apparent racist themes within the Tea Party haven't been a notable part of the Tea Party coverage??? BigK HeX (talk) 07:05, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm just saying that our profound knowledge shouldn't be used to disparage organizations and/or movements. Apparent racist themes can be found in any and all of them. Call it lazy, call it ethical, but I don't think we should focus on it. Whatever you believe it is, we should avoid it for the sake of the project. Like I said before, I have somewhat personal knowledge on articles that I've never touched. Imagine if I did. Imagine 10 more people lacking my restraint. Do you think wikipedia would be better off? I don't think so. †TE†Talk 07:19, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

think enemies you need to realise that wikipedia is about neutrality and full documentation of a given subject, not just the portion of it that is appealing or easy to stomach. If everybody took your attitude then half of wikipedia would not exist. There is the simple and documented fact that a large portion of the tea party is driven not by political goals or ideals but instead by fear and hate. Anybody who has been to one of these things will back me up on this. The movement has no real practical way of policing itself other then kicking out different branches or leaders. They do not have the ability or at least have not demonstrated the ability to specifically discredit or disapprove of these racist or cultish elements. There are people in the tea party that swear on their mother that obama is a space alien or the anti-Christ. These people are not in any way addressed by the internal forms of moderation the tea party claims to employ. If this article fails to mention these things then the article is grossly violating POV and neutrality standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.84.159.28 (talk) 17:34, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

"There is the simple and documented fact that a large portion of the tea party is driven not by political goals or ideals but instead by fear and hate. Anybody who has been to one of these things will back me up on this." I have, and I don't. I have found the majority are kind, friendly, and if not color-blind, very supportive of minorities. Unless you are defining "large portion" as 1% or 2%, you have a clear bias. Please recuse yourself from further discussion or editing of this topic. Thank you. Squ1rr3l (talk) 01:59, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I realize much and edit in a very neutral way. All political, religious, and civil rights movements have those who harbor fringe views and theories. They shouldn't dominate the narrative of the article and don't on any comparables from any ideology. You may believe these people are driven by fear and hate, but that's just your opinion. You may think kicking out racist or unruly protestors from events and dropping branches/leaders that exhibit similar behavior isn't effective policing, that's also your opinion. Try reading up on WP:NPOV, WP:OR, and WP:UNDUE. You don't want this article to be an attack page, do you? †TE†Talk 17:58, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

What a snooooooze! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.185.153.35 (talk) 14:22, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

As far as the "racist" signs and proof there of? There are certainly more than one isolated case. While the majority of Tea Party folks are likely honest and culturally competent people, you can't honestly deny the examples.

http://www.civilianism.com/gate/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/lionafrican.jpg

http://action.naacp.org/page/-/TeaParty/jews.jpg

http://thinkingmeat.net/wp-content/uploads/teapartysign1sm.jpg

http://www.myvoiceoverguy.com/voice-over/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/tea-party-racist-signs-04-back-to-kenya2.jpg

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.186.112.97 (talk) 14:43, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Why no mention of the Tea party agent provocateurs? A simple Google search returns About 88,500 results. Doesn't this deserve some kind of mention? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.239.21.59 (talk) 14:56, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Really? Really? You guys thought that those were racist? Maybe if you guys stop being too sensitive and actually tried to discern their point or what they're trying to say you would actually understand what those posters mean. For example, the Jews one were not an attack on Jews. It didn't say Jews should be killed in the Holocaust. It's basically comparing the American taxpayers today to Jews in the Holocaust. Whether it is true or not, that's not the point. The point is that that poster isn't racist. The Obama monkey thing, no one said that black people are monkeys. Nowhere. It's just an old phrase of "monkey see, monkey do" with a little bit of change in it. The REAL racists are those who think that very poster are racist. Think about it, if you guys see monkey and quickly associate it with black people, I think you really need to ask yourselves about YOUR racism. 67.85.190.202 (talk) 04:29, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Teh racism section displays a ridiculous amount of Pro-Tea Party bias. 92.11.174.68 (talk) 16:02, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

article length/teabagging section

This section was WP:UNDUE and I scaled it down. It isn't called The Teabagger Movement. The first paragraph explains the term sufficiently. Thanks.Malke 2010 (talk) 20:36, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I fail to see how WP:UNDUE is relevant in relation to your edits. The use of the term has garnered enough media attention for the section that is currently there. Can it be cleaned up? Sure. But outrightly removing content under the pretense that you are following policy is not the way to go about this. Besides the point that a section should never be just 2 sentences when it can be more, with the only reference not even being that great of an WP:RS. If you feel it needs condensed even more, then please do so. But do not remove perfectly valid citations when you do so. You may be interested in reading Wikipedia:Layout#Paragraphs. §hep^Talk 21:26, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Stepshep You are making assumptions about my intentions. I've edited this page for a very long time and I made it plain why I deleted the material. I had no "pretense" as you claim and the other editors who edit here on a regular basis know that I have been working to keep the size of the article manageable. The entire article "can be more" as you put it, but this is a dynamic process and there is a great deal more to add to the article. The additional paragraphs do not add to the quality of the article.Malke 2010 (talk) 21:55, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't making assumptions about your intentions, just noting mine; sorry for the confusion about that. You did not make it plain why you deleted the material. You said you deleted it for a reason that wasn't true. This is a medium sized article. Looking through the archives of this page's talk it seems many things are removed to keep it "manageable" when it could do with some beefing up. Just because "there is a great deal more to add to the article" does not mean that certain additions should wait until other things are added. I do agree that the section would benefit from a clean-up. I just don't think wiping away everything but two sentences is the way to do it. §hep^Talk 23:09, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how well sourced something is. It isn't relevant. The first paragraph explains it all. Continuing to re-add it is silly. Malke 2010 (talk) 21:37, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

The first paragraph makes no mention of the term "TeaBagger" (or any of its derivatives) but focuses solely on where "Tea Party" came from. Therefore your current argument is false. §hep^Talk 21:39, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I reverted Malke 2010's deletion and recommended to them to possibly use more discretion when deleting other editors' work in the future - especially for controversial articles such as this.

And while this section continues to undergo revision and be refined, one cannot ignore the amount of usage and attention the term has gotten -- and the controversy it has provoked. 67.58.153.46 (talk) 21:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

The original term was "teabagging." I've corrected the section. There is no 'controversy,' about the use of the term which has fallen out of use. It is not called the "The Teabagging Movement" and does not require more than one paragraph.Malke 2010 (talk) 21:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree with that, the article seems bloated enough without name calling ho ho type additions. Off2riorob (talk) 21:51, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and what with the November elections coming, there's going to be a great deal more to add.Malke 2010 (talk) 21:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how the article in its current state is bloated. Picture-heavy? Sure. But I don't see bloated. §hep^Talk 23:12, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

"There is no 'controversy,' about the use of the term which has fallen out of use."

Source? Thanks. 67.58.153.46 (talk) 22:00, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm with the rest of you - there are better ways to do things than just removing content like this. To me, it looks like the op just didn't like the use of the word "teabagger" and was trying to do whatever they could to remove it. Any neutral editor should know better. And unfortunately, now the page has apparently been locked because of it. Hopefully lesson learned. 76.208.147.124 (talk) 22:44, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Where did the block come from? If there was a discussion, it certainly wasn't noted here. North8000 (talk) 14:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I forgot about the ancient one. North8000 (talk) 14:10, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello North8000, check the history.Malke 2010 (talk) 15:22, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Can't say I'm surprised to see the first lock I've seen in ages and Malke's first day back happen at the same time. Just when I thought the article was getting better and everyone was working together well, too.  :/ Well... I guess that's my cue. Good luck guys. Izauze (talk) 19:44, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

I see a problem with the first paragraph hiding the fact that this party was created by Murdoch, the first mention of the tea party is by a fox news personality!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.109.11.60 (talk) 22:05, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

The Gadsden flag is not flown at rallies as "an alternative to the Stars and Stripes". Citing an obscure article by a second string journalist as the reference does not make POV any more true.

"Tea Party activists have embraced the "Don't Tread on Me" flag and its message.[40] Nationwide it serves as an alternative to the stars and stripes[41] for Tea Party protesters upset at the current government yet still feeling patriotic."

This is nonsense. The Gadsden is flown as an expression of disapproval and defiance of what is viewed by participants as over-reaching by the Federal government, but it is in no way viewed as an alternative to the flag of the United States. If whoever inserted this line bothered to attend a rally or at the very least reviewed photographs, they would find just as many Stars and Stripes, if not more. The statement cited is nothing more than a subjective opinion of an inconsequential journalist and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.142.135.213 (talk) 18:03, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Interesting, but I've seen it in photos from different rallies and a news article about sales of the flag have gone way up.Malke 2010 (talk) 18:11, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Which means somehow that people at rallies consider it an alternative to the Stars and Stripes and not simply an expression of disapproval with the state of the Federal government? Based on what? Sales? Care to speculate on the sales numbers of U.S. flags versus Gadsdens? Any first-hand quotes? Anyone bother to actually ask a person at a rally if they considered it an alternative to the Stars and Stripes? Anyone bother to ask a tea-partier if they consider the U.S flag a symbol of the Federal government instead of a symbol of the nation? The statement by the author is nothing but a subjective assumption. If I go to an Earth Day rally and fly an Eco flag, does that mean I fly it as an alternative to the Stars and Stripes? It is a logical fallacy and certainly nothing resembling objectivity.

I just noticed this in the article and I agree with the OP. Copying the language by Diane Macedo in an online news article does not suffice. Can you cite any known Tea Party participants making such a statement? The unknown OP is correct. That you have seen the flag in photographs of Tea Party events is insufficient to deduce that "it serves as an alternative to the stars and stripes for Tea Party protesters". It is a logical fallacy and has no place in an impartial article. Please find some real cites for this assertion. Otherwise, it needs to go. Thanks. Digiphi (talk) 01:15, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

First Tea Party

http://centralny.ynn.com/content/all_news/132356/a--tea-party--to-protest-paterson-s-taxes/ This is recognized as the first Tea Party of 2009 and needs to be added to the background/history or early local protests. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.10.255.50 (talk) 16:10, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

The first Tea Party was truly 100% LIBERTARIAN, and has CITATIONS over on the ARTICLE for "BOSTON TEA PARTY" which began in 2006. PLEASE CORRECT THIS ARTICLE'S MALFEASANCE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.177.162.145 (talk) 16:57, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

The tea party began before 2008, and is not a reaction to obama. Here is just one example from 2007. (skip to the final 10 seconds) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb4HW3I82lg --A^xcess (talk) 15:31, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

First sentences

I know this has been discussed in the past, but I was hoping for some feedback. It has recently been changed from this:

The Tea Party movement is a populist political movement in the United States that emerged in 2009 through a series of locally and nationally-coordinated protests.

To this:

The Tea Party movement has been described as a political movement in the United States for populist Constitutionalism. It emerged in 2009 through a series of locally and nationally-coordinated protests.

Thoughts? I'm a fan of the former. †TE†Talk 22:14, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

OK. I changed it but have changed it back as you recommend. My concern was that "populist" could imply politically left as well as right, but adding either "conservative" or "libertarian" is problematic, as, no doubt, has been discussed in the past. Hence the idea of referring to the Constitution, which seems to be an important reference point for the movement. But it may be too awkward and/or bordering on WP:Original Research to used "Constitution" derived terminology in the first sentence. As time has gone by since the movement's founding, I think "populist" would be more generally agreeable to editors, because recent news has seen media stories about "establishment" conservatives becoming increasingly frustrated with the movement's influence, in particular with respect to Republican Congressional nominations. If conservative "elites" have expressed concern about the movement's influence, it is difficult to content that they represent the movement or control the movement in a significant way, in my view.Bdell555 (talk) 22:35, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Thanks, but I was just looking for some dialogue. Adherence to the Constitution probably belongs in the lead, and I'm surprised it's not really represented in the article. These are problems that need to be addressed. †TE†Talk 22:38, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Re:Populist -- I'm probably with you on that and previously opposed it as troublesome. †TE†Talk 22:41, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Populist was the subject of previous lengthy discussion and consensus last winter. I agree with Bdell555 that if the conservative elites are complaining, then the movement isn't really coming from them. Also, the CREW people, who seem to only go after Democrats, are now going after Christine O'Donnell regarding her use of campaign funds to cover personal expenses. The Republicans are howling about her win because she soundly beat an establishment Republican. She's apparently saying all the things the Tea Party want to hear. I think the TPM is becoming like a third political party, although they didn't seem to start off that way. They just wanted the Fed policy changed, and were against the bail-out, etc. I'd keep the "political movement," in the lead.Malke 2010 (talk) 18:16, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

I would definately remove the 2009 part in that paragraph. Whoever added that obviously has only done original research, or has clearly done biased research (this article is obviously biased against the Tea Party) and I contest the factual accuracy of this article. The REAL Tea Party began in 2006 as the "Boston Tea Party" and began as a LIBERTARIAN MOVEMENT. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.177.162.145 (talk) 17:04, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

• citations please? Sochwa (talk) 11:52, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, if Christine O'Donnell is supported by the Tea Party movement and this story is true, it doesn't sound particularly libertarian.Bdell555 (talk) 22:40, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

The Borowitz Report seems to be a joke site as the New York Times, the Philadelphia Inquirer, and the Washington Post don't seem aware of this 'protest.' Also, the tea party movement does have antecedents from as early as 2007 that I know of when the first round of mortgage failures began to make news. And the anti-tax groups had tea parties even earlier. That doesn't even account for the FedUpUSA people. I think the article had mentions of these things at the beginning of the summer, but not now.Malke 2010 (talk) 00:26, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

There have been tea party movements from December 16, 1773 on. This article is about the tea party movement as it is known as of now (September 2010). Rick Santelli's diatribe against the bank bailout on February 19, 2009 clearly was a significant event in present tea party movement. Before February 19, 2009, Ron Paul and Ron Paul's followers were the ones focused on the tea party idea. The present tea party movement doesn't go back to 2006. Obama won the presidency on November 4, 2008 and I don't see how aspects of the present tea party movement - the one the article is about - could have originated before November 4, 2008. In short, the first aspects of the present tea party movement likely occured some where between November 4, 2008 and February 19, 2009. The 2009 in the first sentence is reflective of Rick Santelli's diatribe and the events that occured shortly after that - all of which were in 2009.JeffreyBillings (talk) 05:41, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

ThinkEnemies liked this comment. :-) †TE†Talk 16:50, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Funding section within Astroturf removed

I've looked into all these citations. First, the Tea Party movement is amorphous. So claims that Koch or anybody else is giving money to the "tea party movement" can't be used. There's no such organized group.

Koch gives money to something called Americans for Prosperity which is not a tea party organization.

Here are the citations used to support the edit:

New York Observer (the first citation) says this: "Mainstream America is finally getting to know the billionaire brothers backing the libertarian movement, thanks to a pair of dueling profiles in New York and The New Yorker. Now that we've heard about their charitable giving, David's 240-foot mega-yacht and role as patrons of the Tea Party movement, it's time to ask a more serious question: How libertarian are they?"

This just comments on the New Yorker piece, which says:

"In April, 2009, Melissa Cohlmia, a company spokesperson, denied that the Kochs had direct links to the Tea Party, saying that Americans for Prosperity is “an independent organization and Koch companies do not in any way direct their activities.” Later, she issued a statement: “No funding has been provided by Koch companies, the Koch foundations, or Charles Koch or David Koch specifically to support the tea parties.” David Koch told New York, “I’ve never been to a tea-party event. No one representing the tea party has ever even approached me.”

There's no specific mention of funds changing hands with a specific tea party group. Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=2#ixzz10r6Meor2

And this last citation is a synthesis of the New Yorker, again, no specifics of money changing hands.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/breakingnews/koch-brothers-accused-of-funding-supposedly-grass-roots-tea-party-movement-102010803.html

"As for the Tea Party, Hess points out that it hasn't needed billions to thrive in the midst of a devastating recession. 'The movement is not really the product of raising money from billionaires. You don't suddenly have almost 30 per cent of Americans feeling comfortable with the Tea Party because there's some billionaire pulling the strings,' he said. 'They're the flavour of the year in a country that's cyclically in the midst of religious revivals or populist movements. We've lived this before; it often comes in times of economic upheaval when people are frustrated, scared or, worse, unemployed. The real question is where would the Tea Party be if unemployment suddenly went down to five per cent?'"

I've not found anything in a Google search that comes up with anything to support any claim that the Koch brothers have specifically given money to a tea party group. Nor is there listed anywhere, a group calling itself "The Tea Party Movement." Malke 2010 (talk) 20:02, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I think the issue is one of presentation so we don't violation WP:OR. There's plenty of reliable coverage that indicates that the connection between the Koch's and the Tea Party Movement should be included. The question is how to do it properly so we don't violate WP:OR. Looks like we could describe them as "patrons" or the like. --Ronz (talk) 20:11, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, and it needs to be very specific. Even the New Yorker writer was not able to show any funds changing hands. It might be more appropriate to point out that they have something called Americans for Prosperity, but then again, what does that do other than give out lists of politicians names to tea parties. But of course, the question then becomes, what tea parties receive these lists, and do these tea parties then follow up? It might even be that Americans for Prosperity, if it's a non-profit, is nothing more than a tax deduction for the guy.Malke 2010 (talk) 20:28, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Here's the wikilink: Americans for ProsperityMalke 2010 (talk) 21:25, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Malke and all. I apologize for the heading and anything else that was construed from my two edits (I did not add any citations, only made subjects in two sentences for what was already here). I think that you've scalped the article now though, if you'll pardon the expression. Here for example is a source that would indicate that Koch Industries belongs here, Kevin Freking of The Associated Press in BusinessWeek via Bloomberg. Thanks if you'd please restore Koch in some capacity.

"The company's owners, David and Charles Koch, were the subject of a recent article in the New Yorker highlighting their financial support for Americans for Prosperity, an organization that has worked closely with tea party groups since the movement's inception."

-SusanLesch (talk) 23:04, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

"Financial support" is more descriptive than "patrons," but we can use both. --Ronz (talk) 23:22, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Also Malke, "Tea-Party Movement Gathers Strength" in today's Wall Street Journal seems to say that the tea party is a movement and is quite a lot more than an "amorphous" group.

"The tea party has emerged as a potent force in American politics and a center of gravity within the Republican Party, with a large majority of Republicans showing an affinity for the movement that has repeatedly bucked the GOP leadership this year, a new Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll has found."

-SusanLesch (talk) 03:43, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

The article hasn't been scalped. Unsourced, original research has been deleted. The Tea Party is amorphous. There is no central leadership, it is comprised of various groups all across the country that are not connected. Some tea parties provide financial backing to local politicians, others do not, such as Tea Party Patriots. They no longer backed candidates. Instead, they go to Washington and visit/harass congressman to change the laws on the stimulus, health care, etc.

You want to say that Koch is directly supporting the Tea party movement. He's doing no such thing. He's supporting Americans for Prosperity. You want to take quotes such as the one you placed above and use that to say Koch is financially supporting "the tea party movement." He supports Americans for Prosperty, which claims it provides lists of names of politicians to tea party groups, and "other support," that is not clearly defined. We can't take these various quotes and build them into "Koch provides financial support for the tea party movement." He does not.

Nor can you make the claim that the central core of the Tea Party movement is the Republican Party. If anything, the local Tea Party support has devastated the Republican field. Many Tea Party members are self-described independents. There is no reliable source so far that says Americans for Prosperity provides financial backing to tea parties. Nor has anyone defined Koch's political agenda.

What we can put in the article right now is that Americans for Prosperity claims it supports tea party groups, but haven't named any such groups. And that Koch has donated money to Americans for Prosperity.Malke 2010 (talk) 14:53, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Also, the edit was put back and I removed it. This needs to be worked out here first, especially as regards the citations. The New York Observer is just repeating, it doesn't do the level of reporting that the New York Times does. And the use of "mainstream American media," to start off the sentence, is not informative to the reader. Use the source. "The New York Times reported," etc.Malke 2010 (talk) 15:28, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi Malke. I think that you should make these changes to the article because you are the only person here with specific objections and ideas. Nobody else can say what you'd like them to say. Would you please add Koch to this article in some capacity? -SusanLesch (talk) 17:37, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I was actually just working out something.Malke 2010 (talk) 18:11, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I'll finish writing up something and put in the edit tonight, as I'm working right at the moment and there are two reliable sources I want check on. In the meantime, if anyone can locate other reliable sources, I'd appreciate it.Malke 2010 (talk) 18:53, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

So far, what I've discovered is that Americans for Prosperity has two organizations, one is AFP and the other is AFP Foundation. Apparently, the Koch family trusts donate money to the AFP Foundation. Also, a lot of their money seems to go into cancer research at Massachusetts Institute of Technology. This is probably why Jane Mayer in the New Yorker couldn't find anything except this:

"In April, 2009, Melissa Cohlmia, a company spokesperson, denied that the Kochs had direct links to the Tea Party, saying that Americans for Prosperity is “an independent organization and Koch companies do not in any way direct their activities.” Later, she issued a statement: “No funding has been provided by Koch companies, the Koch foundations, or Charles Koch or David Koch specifically to support the tea parties.” David Koch told New York, “I’ve never been to a tea-party event. No one representing the tea party has ever even approached me.”

To claim that the Koch brothers personally or their foundations are donating money to the tea parties will need reliable sources, and I can't find any. It sounds like this is one of those rumors and since the Koch brothers are living persons, there are BLP issues to consider. Maybe we should run it by Ballonman as he's an admin.Malke 2010 (talk) 06:31, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry Malke. I've tried to be patient with you. But no source will satisfy somebody who reads so selectively. You're welcome to call in your friends. (Balloonman has made three edits here so I don't know why else he'd be selected.) -SusanLesch (talk) 22:17, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I searched for reliable sources and could not find any. Also, I do not need to "call in your friends," as you've suggested. Instead, I tried to call in reliable sources. I've not found any. My suggestion to run this by Balloonman was only because he is an admin and might have a better knowledge on whether this would okay to include. I still do not believe it is. As I explained above, after a very thorough effort at finding a direct connection, there is none.

An opinion by Yasha Levine in the New York Observer is not reliable. The New Yorker Magazine piece makes it clear there is no evidence of Koch or the family or the company or their foundations making donations to any tea parties.

Why you want to include this appears to be merely a desire to drape this mantel on this family. Websites, etc. are not reliable sources. If it's to be put here, it needs to be reliable. I've no care either way only that the edit be reliably sourced. It is not, as I made quite a bit of effort to find out.

As it is, I've learned a great deal about this people, more than I ever wanted to know, and the gist of all their giving (from reliable sources) is that they give their money to think tanks in order to influence government regulation of the industries they run. With the rest of their money they seem to be intent on curing prostrate cancer, as one of the brothers is suffering from it. All of this is reliably sourced and well known, notable even, but not a wit is out there to support the claim that this family et al is supporting the tea party movement.Malke 2010 (talk) 20:47, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

While I appreciate Malke 2010's efforts, there's no reasons why we can't simply report what is presented in the sources. --Ronz (talk) 22:30, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello Ronz, this is why I suggested we run it by Balloonman. See above reply to Susan L.Malke 2010 (talk) 20:52, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I think that he/she is agreeing with your ostensible statement (report what is in RS's) but not with your implied one (that this is reported in RS's)North8000 (talk) 02:52, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you are quite right.Malke 2010 (talk) 20:47, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I am restoring the sourced content. You are free to propose an alternative wording. I am not going to put any more effort on this now. However I do believe that this issue (astoturfing and financing) should go into the lede. I may also need to include the 2009 reporting on the issue. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:26, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

No it won't go into the lead. It's not notable in any way, and it's not likely to stay in the article without reliable sources. If you want it here, please do the work and find the sources to back it up rather than putting it back into the article and leaving it for others to look after. Malke 2010 (talk) 20:52, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree Sincerely,North8000 (talk) 20:53, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and I don't think I can make this any clearer but again, these are the so-called sources:

• first one: http://www.observer.com/2010/daily-transom/how-libertarian-koch-bros-benefit-corporate-welfare This is one nothing more than a note by Yasha Levine in the "Daily Transom" (aka gossip section) of the New York Observer (not known for it's hard news reporting) which is not reliable especially as it does not mention at all anything about the Koch brothers/family/foundation backing any tea party movement.

• What it does say, at the bottom of the article under the bit about the author is that Levine wrote about the Koch brothers and their supposed connection to the tea party movement for Playboy. However, the author blurb fails to also provide the important detail that because the piece contained libelous claims, Playboy retracted it entirely and removed all evidence of it from it's website.

• Next comes the op-ed piece from Frank Rich in the New York Times. We don't use op-eds because they tend to just report gossip because they can. They're opinions. Note the lack of a story anyway in the New York Times about the Koch bros/family/foundation giving money to the tea party movement. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opinion/29rich.html?_r=1&hp

• This one just provides a quick erraneous mention of the contents of the New Yorker piece: http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/world/breakingnews/koch-brothers-accused-of-funding-supposedly-grass-roots-tea-party-movement-102010803.htm

• The last one also comments on the New Yorker piece. http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9IE96M80.htm

My suggestion to run this by Balloonman, as I think he's neutral, knows the rules presumably better than the average editor otherwise, why give him the tools, could offer some advice. And SusanL. please note, yes, Balloonman has only made a few edits, but then so have you. So what? If you want to mention the Koch brothers/family/foundation, here's about all you can say:

• They deny giving money to the tea party, and I'd use their quote directly from the New Yorker.
• They give money to the Amerians for Prosperity Foundation, not the AFP, which also apparently doesn't give money, it sends out lists of policies it wants changed, and then they hope the hell the tea party will take them up on it.
• They do give their money to Massachusetts Institute of Technology for cancer research and
• They do give money to think tanks in order to influence white papers on what should and/or should not become public policy regarding government regulation of the industries they control. Another word for that is paying lobbyists to get them what they want.Malke 2010 (talk) 21:22, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Doubly so because this is BLP. Making unsupported or weakly supported statements about what a living person purportedly did is the subject of one of the most stringently enforced WP policies. North8000 (talk) 21:56, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your comment. It seems a BLP to me as well.Malke 2010 (talk) 22:10, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

We've plenty of sources to draw from. We just need to be careful with the presentation.

I agree that we there doesn't appear to be enough coverage to mention in the lede. --Ronz (talk) 02:56, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Malke, Balloonman's cool. I'll check back in a couple days to see what he thinks. -SusanLesch (talk) 04:27, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Per request Balloonman's thoughts

Ok, I have taken the request to review this discussion seriously. When I was first approached on my talk page, I wasn't sure about getting involved (I tend to avoid political dhramas here at WP), but when I saw Susan's comment, that I was "cool" and thus had the respect of both "sides" of the controversy, I decided to take this a little more seriously. I decided to look at this as if I were closing a controversial RfC/AFD. To address Susan's concerns, the limit of involvement here dealt with a single BLP concern that I removed because it wasn't adequately sourced. As soon as a valid source was provided, I no longer cared about the statement---the manner I handled the situation appears to have caught Malke's attention. Prior to this past week, I don't think we've ever dealt with each other (I know you Susan and would consider you a wikifriend before I would Malke.) This page entered my watchlist after I found myself in a discussion on Tea bag, wherein I argued that despite the pejuorative/sexual nature of the term, that Tea Bagger was a term used by both supporters and detractors of the Tea Party movement, thus was appropriate for inclusion on that dab page. For the record, there are others who know and understand the BLP policy better than myself. That being said, I've spent over four hours reviewing the articles and links provided here and elsewhere. I've tried to be fair and impartial in my analysis.

From what I see, the allegations that the Koch's funded the Tea Pary boil down to two articles. The first being an article on playboy.com which has since been removed as potentially libel---the author of that article then attempts to paint the removal as being strong armed by Koch. Playboy, unlike other adult magazines, has garnered a reputation as a reliable source and it likes to be somewhat controversial as that drives sales (well despite the obvious sales driver). Based upon their reputation, I personally find it unlikely that they would kowtow to a legal threat unless the legal threat has legs. The second article is the New Yorker article. The New Yorker tends to be a liberal source but is deemed to be a reliable source. While a source may be reliable, our policy reads, Whether a specific news story is reliable for a specific fact or statement in a Wikipedia article is something that must be assessed on a case by case basis. So lets take a look at the New Yorker article dealing with the Tea Party Movement.

• It starts out by saying that there was a fund raiser "Though Koch freely promotes his philanthropic ventures, he did not attend the summit, and his name was not in evidence." It makes the statement in the manner of trying to say, "but this isn't true." The article uses this summit, which there was no evidence that the Koch's were involved with, to tie the next five paragraphs together through the summit's organizer.
• It then cites a Koch spokesperson/Koch denying involvement with the tea parties in 2009. The presentation again is designed to make people question the validity of the statements. I mean, the implication is, if there is no truth, then why was the statement made? Perhaps because of the playboy.com article which had recently been published?
• It then quotes a White House spokesman making allegations that unnamed billionaires are behind the tea party. But the White House doesn't mention them---but the implication in the article is clear it's the Kochs (if this were Wikipedia we would call that synthesis.)
• It then quote a "longtime political operative who draws a salary from Americans for Prosperity, and who has worked for Koch-funded political groups." Political operative is a clearly charged term, but beyond that, what does it matter? The fact that a person who has at some point in time (since 1994) worked for an organization that Koch founded said something ties Koch to that person? No, the "political operative" may associate herself with Koch, but that does not mean that it is a two way street or that she is authoritative for Koch. That is hardly compelling evidence.
• The article then spends the next three paragraphs tying the "political operative" to various people, who are thus linked to Koch? Again, if this were Wikipedia, we would have have challenged the inclusion of those paragraphs as WP:UNDUE. The author is trying to draw lines and create an impression based upon a person who used to work for an organization that at one time had connections to Koch? I mean, the person who organized the summit that Koch was not affiliated with, gave an award to somebody who called Obama the "cokehead in chief"? Please. Drawing a line between Koch to that blogger is tenuous at best.
• The article then talks about Americans for Prosperity and how that group has supported Tea Party movements... it does not show that the tea party has accepted their advice or guidance. Rush Limbaugh regularly offers up advice to the Democrats, that does not mean that the Democrats recognize Rush. The KKK, Black Panthers, Christian Coalition, Rainbow Coalition, ACORN routinely offer advice to various parties and might have voter registrations. That does not prove a connection or tie-in. Again, the connection here is flimsy at best. Lets use another comparison. Through my former employer, I could give money to the United Way. The United Way has a history of working with Planned Parenthood that goes back 40 years. According to logic used here, if I gave money to United Way, I was then supporting Planned Parenthood, and thus contributing to abortions! Faulty logic.
• The article then states, "The anti-government fervor infusing the 2010 elections represents a political triumph for the Kochs." Again, Wikipedia would have called that WP:NPOV and unsupported. And even if the Koch's rejoice, so does Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, and millions of others---that doesn't mean they funded the tea party movement.
• The most daming material comes from, "Bruce Bartlett, a conservative economist and a historian, who once worked at the National Center for Policy Analysis." Bartlett has some highly critical words for Koch. But Bartlett was fired from the NCPA, which means that he might not be an objective source on the subject.
• It then cites an unnamed "Republican campaign consultant" who says that the Koch's started the Tea Party. As pointed out elsewhere, the Tea Party isn't a single group.
• The article then says the Koch's declined to respond "a prominent New York public-relations executive who is close with the Kochs put forward two friends..."
• Finally, the section tying the Koch's to the Tea Party, cite a Democratic political strategist who decries the Koch's as being the "epicenter" of the anti-Obama movement. Ok. Let's suppose they are. Does that draw a line to funding the Tea Party?

When dealing with Reliable Sources, we have to look at specific examples. While the New Yorker is generally considered to be a reliable source, this particular article and this particular section are ripe with hyperbole, synthesis, and misdirection. Hell, the whole article is written with a strong bias (the next section begins by tying the Koch's to Stalin.) If this were written on Wikipedia, we would have never allowed it to be published!

That being said, I don't think we can exclude inclusion of the allegation in the article. While *I* don't find the New Yorker article to be compelling, it has been cited and picked up elsewhere. So what do we say? Our current wording leaves a lot to be desired:

In August 2010, mainstream American news organizations[137] started making allegations about the funding sources for the Tea Party Movement. Claims were made that the billionaire Koch brothers, David H. Koch, Charles G. Koch and Koch Industries are providing financial support to the movement through Americans for Prosperity.[138][139][140][141]

So let's look at that statement:

• "Mainstream American news organizations?" The source that supports that statement is Yasha Levine in the New York Observer. The Observer is not a mainstream media outlet, but that isn't what raises the red flag on this source. Yasha Levine appears to be the author whose original Playboy.com article got the ax. But the source does NOT support the comment! It cites the New Yorker article described above and an op-ed piece in the New York magazine. I would not call either of those "mainstream" and even if I did, those don't support the statement. So how about our other sources? All of the other sources cite the New Yorker magazine. The New York Times magazine in a partisan Op-Ed piece, but cites the New Yorker. But needless to say, the source has to go as it does not support the claim.
• "mainstream American news organizations started making allegations"---no, organizations plural did not start making allegations. A single magazine, the New Yorker, made allegations that others have repeated. There is a huge difference there.

The second sentence, is OK, but in my opinion, based upon the dubious reliability of the New Yorker article, we need to attribute it. In August 2010, the New Yorker magazine made allegations that the billionaire Koch brothers, David H. Koch, Charles G. Koch and Koch Industries are providing financial support to the movement through Americans for Prosperity.[138][139][140][141]---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 10:06, 3 October 2010 (UTC)[Note post North's response below: there was a question about BLP. IMO, BLP would not be an impedement. BLP does not protect one from negative reporting, but rather requires reliable sources. While *I* question the source for reasons mentioned above, failure to include the allegation, especially as it has been cited elsewhere, would be Original Research.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 13:12, 3 October 2010 (UTC)]

What a huge amount of excellent work and analysis! North8000 (talk) 12:30, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

The New York Observer quote is irrelevant, I only added it after some IP changed "mainstream" to "some" – to source my OR conjuncture that The New Yorker and The New York Times are mainstream. As to repeating the allegations, what is notable is that practically every American news organization has repeated them in one form or another. This is in fact the essence of being mainstream. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:14, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

The NYT I would consider mainstream, but the Op-ed piece used is highly partisan screed. I would consider mainstream to be news articles in NYT, Washington Post, the main TV networks, Time Magazine, etc---those haven't been shown. Even if it was, I would find the sentence to be OR and questionable if all they are doing is citing the New Yorker. Reporting on an allegation made by another source is not the same thing as making the allegation oneself. Right now, with the exception of the NYT's op-ed, all I've seen are other sources repeating the allegation---not adding to it/confirming it/expanding upon/delving into more details ets. Again, lets draw an extreme parrallel. Rush Limbaugh makes an allegation against Obama/Reid/Pelosi. The various mainstream news outlets repeat what Rush said, are we going to then conclude that those mainstream outlets are making the same charge? No, those sources are repeating the allegation, but not making it. Plus, the main purpose behind making the statement is to make the New Yorker allegation appear to be more mainstream/accepted by the major outlets than it really is.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 18:54, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. This is an excellent analysis. And I might add that the Kochs' are not household names. Notice that all of this is being reported in New York publications, which yes are distributed nationally, but not picked up by reliable sources elsewhere like Chicago Tribune, Los Angeles Times, Baltimore-Sun, St. Louis-Post Dispatch, Dallas-Morning News, which have no mentions of this. On the other hand, if the Kochs' were well known on the level of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, it would have been looked at, sources examined, etc. So just on notability alone I'd say it shouldn't be here. We would need to add so much content for the reader to understand what this is all about, and with no specific tea parties identified, it would all become top heavy. Thanks, Balloonman.Malke 2010 (talk) 19:14, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I support Balloonman's solution, to read: "In August 2010, the New Yorker magazine made allegations that the billionaire Koch brothers, David H. Koch, Charles G. Koch and Koch Industries are providing financial support to the movement through Americans for Prosperity." Sounds AOK to me. Thanks for your help and all your efforts on this. -SusanLesch (talk) 01:08, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Done. I'll put in the cite in a bit.Malke 2010 (talk) 17:10, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Great. I added wikilinks and expanded the cite. So, good work and thanks again, Malke. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

(ec)Welcome.Malke 2010 (talk) 22:08, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Y'all should write a book on how to settle differences of opinion in Wikipedia. I think that this is the first time I've seen it actually occur. North8000 (talk) 22:07, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Give it a week and there will be something/somebody new...---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 22:57, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

No Evidence Corroborating Protest Slurs

It's appropriate to mention that no evidence has come light in the midst of these allegations. Furthermore, it's impossible to cite a source proving that evidence of something DOES NOT exist. It's likewise impossible to find a source for the lack of evidence that John F. Kennedy was killed in a train crash, or the lack of evidence that OJ Simpson is a Martian. If you become aware of any evidence let me know and I will post it and link it. Or please ask for mediation. Otherwise, leave it alone.Digiphi (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:22, 5 October 2010 (UTC).

Hello, Digiphi. Per WP:BRD, I reverted the addition of the comment "No evidence of either the alleged slurs or the spitting has emerged" because it's unsourced commentary which suggests a conclusion. You have pointed out that it is impossible to source the non-existence of corroborating evidence, which is true, but suppose an editor added this statement instead: "No evidence that the alleged slurs or the spitting did not take place has emerged." They would also be correct in asserting it's impossible to source the non-existence of corroborating evidence, but it still wouldn't be an appropriate comment to make. There are witnesses from both sides of this issue at the time and place of the alleged incident who make contradictory and opposing claims (some say it happened, some say it didn't happen), so adding the declarative comment you've inserted four times now just isn't appropriate in my opinion. --AzureCitizen (talk) 23:29, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm not convinced. You're taking a dim view in the example you've created. When you're accused of something, the party prosecuting you will only be successful by providing convincing evidence that your alleged actions took place. If the prosecution cannot do this, you are not subject to a presumption of guilt by failing to provide your own evidence that your alleged actions did not take place. The people making charges of racial slurs and spitting at the protest are declaring that actions took place. To date there is NO evidence in support of this accusation. It's necessary for the purpose of impartiality that this indisputable fact be available to readers in the context of the litany of accusations. Your position that it's impossible to find evidence that the slurs and spitting did not occur is predicated on the idea that Tea Party people should be presumed guilty of the alleged reprehensible acts until proven otherwise. That's a bias. I'll await input before jumping to revert.Digiphi (talk) 23:56, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

This isn't a court of law trying a criminal case, with the prosecution's affirmative burden and the defense's entitlement to the presumption of innocence - it's a Wikipedia article, where edits are based not on WP:TRUTH but WP:VERIFIABILITY. The assertion that "It's necessary for the purposes of impartiality that this indisputable fact be available to readers in context of the litany of accusations" is flawed and pushes a particular WP:POV and bias; an opposing editor could make the same argument for the reversed comment about the slurs pointed out above and would run afoul of the same problem. Neither comment should be in the article. Additionally, the assertion that "there is NO evidence in support of this" ignores the fact that witnesses are a form of evidence, and the article as written presents sourced statements from witnesses on both sides claiming that the slurs both did and did not happen. From there, it is up to the reader to decide. Per WP:BRD, I would suggest you discuss the issue here on the Talk Page and seek consensus before jumping to revert and re-insert your comment. Thanks, AzureCitizen (talk) 00:20, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

It is not the point of argument that Wikipedia is a trial court. The example still illustrates what is wrong with excluding the fact from the article. Much of the reaction, described in the following section, concerns the search for documentary evidence beyond just witness statements. It is necessary to state definitively that to date none is known to exist. It is important to readers to have the facts. It was to me when I read the unimproved article. I had to perform searches to satisfy myself that no evidence exists. It ought to be stated plainly, as it is an undisputed fact, so that readers can form judgments on the presentation of all known facts pertaining to the subject. The reason you and I are troubling ourselves to participate in this discussion is an interest in perfection in impartiality in articles. It would be appropriate to replace and bold the statement to improve attention to this discussion. Let us know the counsel of other editors.Digiphi (talk) 00:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi, Digiphi. Welcome to Wikipedia (not a courtroom; not a democracy; not a forum in which to push personal beliefs as "indisputable fact"). You are a bit late, considering all of this was heavily discussed six months ago. You are encouraged to review archives 4, 5 and 6. Yes, slurs were used. Some were caught on tape when the press was near, like the assaults on Barney Frank. Others were witnessed by several people when only tea partiers, and not the press, was near -- good luck getting incriminating tape from them, especially when they won't see a single penny for it. Yes, spitting occurred, also caught on tape - although some have tried to explain it away as accidental spittle from a screaming protestor. I guess only the protestor knows for certain if it was accidental. The congressman knows for certain that an apology was not forthcoming either way. Your claim of "no evidence emerged" is patently false. As the "spitting" video shows, evidence exists, even if disputed. Video evidence of slurs exists in several forms, but is also disputed.

If an "indisputable" edit of yours is removed, then you may consider it disputed. If you plan to return it to the article, you must also cite it to reliable sources. "I had to perform searches to satisfy myself that no evidence exists. It ought to be stated plainly..."; no - it ought not. That would be a violation we call original research. Xenophrenic (talk) 01:07, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Neither of those vids support either party's position. That no evidence has emerged is not a personal belief. Whether or not you subscribe to this definition, it is a fact. Mentioning the lack of evidence qualifies the dispute over whether these things happened. None exists. I should like to extend to you the same encouragement to present real documentary evidence. Do so, and I will champion its proper place in the article against any opponents. Until then, the article remains biased without mentioning the lack of evidence.Digiphi (talk) 01:35, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

You are allowed your belief that the above linked evidence doesn't support either party's position. You are not, however, allowed to claim that evidence doesn't exist in a Wikipedia article. Please be sure your edits conform to Wikipedia policy. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 01:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

It is not merely my belief as you imply. The vids you are leaning on are not conclusive by any standard. Specifically, neither satisfies the challenges described in the following subsection. More specifically, Breitbart's solicitation (described in the subsection) has not been satisfied. In light of these points, I can be persuaded to compromise on the lack of documentary evidence being mentioned in the subsection, nearer to the context of the challenge for evidence.Digiphi (talk) 01:55, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

You have nothing of value to compromise with. Your sentence is your opinion. You just made it up, and it's by your own admission uncited. It's synthesis, and we don't do that. Cheers, PhGustaf (talk) 05:56, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Digiphi, you could only add it if you had a source that commented on it, such as say, the NYTimes does a follow up article and in it they say, "To date no video evidence has been offered to Breitbart," etc. Then you could put that in because it's being reported in a reliable source. But you can't just add it there without a source because then it is read as original research and that's not helpful/informative to the reader. It's also against policy.Malke 2010 (talk) 15:05, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Alright; that works for me, for now. I recognize the OR parameters better than previously. I will brainstorm for an uncontentious way to either include this fact in the article or balance the section otherwise. You are very good, Malke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Digiphi (talk • contribs) 05:00, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm glad it's been clarified for you.Malke 2010 (talk) 23:20, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Some sources...

• Add Kate Zernike NYT October 1st 2010 "Movement of the Moment Looks to Long-Ago Texts" with W. Cleon Skousen "The 5000 Year Leap" 1981 book John Birch Society defense against Separation of church and state in the United States, Friedrich Hayek's 1944 The Road to Serfdom which Koch family funders have followed, Frédéric Bastiat's The Law (1850 book), Justin Amash, Paul Ryan (politician), Ron Johnson (Wisconsin), Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, The Starfish and the Spider by Ori Brafman, Ludwig von Mises, Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, ... 99.24.248.41 (talk) 17:45, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• also from NYT "Movement Finds Guidance in Once-Obscure Texts". Seventeenth Amendment to the United States Constitution opposition too(?) but what of Citizens_United#Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Commission since Koch family Billionaires Superclass of Koch Industries funding through Foundations ... Conflict of interest? 99.39.187.23 (talk) 19:56, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• Add Resource Boiling Mad: Inside Tea Party America (2010) by Kate Zernike ISBN 978-0805093483 99.102.178.29 (talk) 20:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

• This too: Tea party has nation's attention. Now what? September 26th in Washington Post by Amy Gardner ...
  • Opaque (doesn't have to disclose donors, unlimited donations) 501(c) Americans for Prosperity is "Largely funded by oil billionaire David H. Koch ... spends money ($30 million) on issue ads, phone banks, and bus tours, and was instrumental in organizing (vast network, Twitter, Facebook, email) protests at health-care town halls in summer 2009.
  • Tim Phillips AFP President and political strategiest from public affairs firm Century Stategies, will make Buck County Philadelphia (Kitchen Table Patriots, etc...) stop on "Spending Revolt" bus tour.

Inspired by the other edits; from Washington Post September 26th article (from page A1, and on page A8 also): Kitchen Table Patriots operates out of a two-floor office, paid for by the American Majority which is tied to David H. Koch Family via an initial investment by the Sam Adams Alliance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.155.153.196 (talk) 00:38, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

• • Libertarian/Republican Washington, D.C.-based hardly-grassroots FreedomWorks (Minarchism, Free enterprise) spent $10 million (TV ads, supply signs, create Google Maps, endorse, local get-out-the-vote): Michael S. Lee, Christine O'Donnell, ... with Chairman Dick Armey Texas Republican of Washington, D.C.-based lobbying firm.

See Tea Party movement "hardly" edits, plus Talk:Americans for Prosperity and Talk:FreedomWorks besides The New Yorker article and Boiling Mad book.

Agreed, the 1984-founded Washington D.C.-based FreedomWorks is hardly-grassroots per the Washington Post article, but the Boiling Mad book page reference is the Koch family, in particular David H. Koch and Americans for Prosperity. The two are related, I agree, but your comment did confuse me. There does seem to be a connection though, same conflict of interest.

Any comments from those who seem to believe FreedomWorks IS grassroot and not a form of astroturfing? 209.255.78.138 (talk) 19:32, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I never said FreedomWorks is grassroot, and we could include that fact in the article on FreedomWorks. There is no credible source for the Tea Party not being grassroot. All the sources we have for FreedomWorks being involved say they were quick to take advantage of the movement. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:52, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

That is good, Arthur. You are correct in your position. WP is an encyclopedia. This article is about the Tea Party. This article is not about FreedomWorks. Battle it out at the FreedomWorks article. There may very well be a place for it there. It is inappropriate and misplaced in this article. The professional and impartial thing to do is keep it omitted and maintain the proper links to the FreedomWorks article. Readers can learn what they will from the facts about FreedomWorks at its specifically crafted page.

-Digiphi (talk) 04:19, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

• • Tea Party Nation's criminal defense lawyer founder, with under $1 million spent, 445 local affiliates, and 32626 members.
  • Tea Party Express project of Our Country Deserves Better PAC with Chief Strategist Sal Russo Sacramento, CA Republican operative of political consulting firm, Political action committee director Joe Wierzbicki Mark Williams (radio host) "racist comments", and Chairwomen Amy Kremer (kicked out but still "the face of", co-founder Annabel Park of the Coffee Party: Coffee Party USA); spent half a million USD on Republican Sharron Angle in Nevada. Russo's firm benefits form some of TPE's spending, which includes bus tours and funding US Senate races, "non-intrusive" guidance.
  • And Tea Party Patriots Atlanta Jenny Beth Martin and Sacramento, CA lawyer Mark Meckler co-founders, which has been angered by the TPE seeming to speak for the movement, such as Contract from America.
  • From sources November elections will be big test of tea party's staying power and The top national players in the tea party. On the same date on page B1 in print Frank Luntz compares GOP 2010 Pledge to America against 1994 Contract with America. 99.155.144.169 (talk) 06:37, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I have restored (and refactored) this section against Ballonman's objection. By careful reading you find a relevant summary of reliable and relevant sources. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

P.S. – Mentioning "Coke" does not make something a WP:BLP violation. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:04, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see where you've 'refactored' anything 'against Ballonman's objection.' Can you show us a diff?Malke 2010 (talk) 23:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Ballonman objected by removing the whole section. I refactored by removing the redundant subtitles. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:23, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I see now. Yes, I like having those sources to look at. It's nice Balloonman is here. He's a good troubleshooter. Btw, I saw another article about the TPM using "Rules for Radicals." I can see where they would rely on it as so many of them are Baby Boomers. I'll track it down again and put up the link if it's okay.Malke 2010 (talk) 16:02, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Refactoring does make a HUGE difference here... as presented by the IP, it was nothing but disjointed garbage. My concern had nothing to do with pronounciation of Koch (my wife went to OU---and the Koch's have a building named after them.) But rather some of the statements about specific individuals, but I will trust that they are covered in the two sources provided at the end. As originally presented, the section was a rambling screed and the sources got lost in a sea of blue overlinks. Also, there is no "against Balloonman's objection." That is a mischaracterization as far as I am concerned.---Balloonman ^{NO! I'm Spartacus!} 17:50, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I see now why you did that. Also, here's an interesting article from today's NYTimes about the coming house races. http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/10/number-of-competitive-house-races-doubles-from-recent-years/?hp Malke 2010 (talk) 21:32, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:OVERLINK

Every now and then as editors add to the page, it gets filled with redundant links that are distracting for the reader. If XYZ is already highlighted in a photo caption and in the lead paragraph of a section, then it is not necessary to link it again. And if there are multiple sections that mention XYZ, the link only needs to be at the first mention of XYZ, it doesn't have to be linked throughout the article. Newt Gingrich is an example. He's the former house speaker in the photo caption, in multiple sections, etc. Same thing with the news outlets. In a section that already mentions MSNBC, FOX News, CNN, CBS News, etc., subsequent paragraphs that mention these outlets do not need to be linked again. I've started to remove some today. It will take a while to give the article a close read, so if anybody has the time, help is appreciated.Malke 2010 (talk) 17:51, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I am also working a removal campaign piecemeal, whenever I notice them. If everyone keeps this in mind it should be cleaned up very quickly. I recommend placing a template or tag or whatever in a high-traffic spot (top of the talk page?), mentioning this problem to serve as a heads-up to editors of this article.

-Digiphi (talk) 21:18, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Or maybe we could embed a message, so that editors would be careful about the linking when adding content to a section. It gets to where it's off-putting to the reader.Malke 2010 (talk) 21:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Listing Tea Party rallies here

Hi, an editor is wanting to keep this edit [2] which is a list of tea party rallies. I reverted it but he put it back. There is already several articles which cover the rallies and reproducing them here doesn't seem informative nor feasible. As this article is now at 98 kilobytes, it's probably a good idea to just provide a link to the list of tea parties, but not include a section which could quickly become unwieldy. But I'd appreciate hearing what others think. Thanks.Malke 2010 (talk) 09:37, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

At most, a summary section that's about half the current size, linking to the list articles. Alternatively, work on a Tea Party movement footer template that would have a good summary of the TP articles, including the event list articles. That said, probably quite a few of those on the list will have notability issues, but that's something for those articles, not here. Ravensfire (talk) 14:06, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I am for whittling down the summary to, say, three of the largest, or most covered, or most controversial (some kind of superlative) events, and linking to the lists. Each of the three events that make the list should have a brief description of only one or two sentences.

-Digiphi (talk) 14:44, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm for deleting it altogether and leaving the links which Ravensfire just deleted. These links belong at the beginning of the article. The list of tea party rallies is unnecessary duplication here. This article is focused on the overall Movement and not individual rallies which are sufficiently covered elsewhere.Malke 2010 (talk) 16:01, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I am fine with that: deleting the summary altogether, but keep the event list links either at the top or where appropriate in the middle. We can always revisit the issue if it becomes pertinent to future developments. If everyone feels good about this, then I will make the changes.

-Digiphi (talk) 21:23, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I'll add the links back.Malke 2010 (talk) 00:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Categories and External links

I removed some. --Threeafterthree (talk) 22:43, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

The "articles" can go, I have restored the categories. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:22, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I was about to do the same. --Ronz (talk) 01:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

The Conservative Movements category is not appropriate for this article. This is not about the Christian right. It was never about the Christian right. It has nothing to do with any group like that including Glenn Beck's 9/12 group which is not a tea party group. I have no idea what Beck's group is, but it isn't a tea party group. It was founded before the tea party movement, etc. Please don't put the category back and start an edit war. Discussion first. Thanks.Malke 2010 (talk) 02:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand what the Christian right or Glenn Beck's group has to do with the appropriateness of this article into the categories. Is there a prior discussion I'm overlooking? --Ronz (talk) 02:44, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Part of the category includes the Christian right. And please don't add it back. The page will end up getting locked.Malke 2010 (talk) 02:53, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense. The "Christian right" are not the only conservatives. Restoring. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:36, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Categories look appropriate. BigK HeX (talk) 04:32, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi BigK HeX, how did 'tea party' get added to the category box on this one? Go look at it and you'll see what I mean. The other categories I'd agree with, but 'Tea Party' next to Christian Right doesn't make sense. If Christian Right came out of there, I wouldn't have a problem.Malke 2010 (talk) 12:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be all manner of confused. Your edit obviously had nothing to do with anything directly involving the label "Christian Right". Currently, "Christian Right" is only mentioned as an American Conservative movement, which is a pretty-well established classification. And even worse for your position, your disdain for (what you inaccurately believe is) an categorization of the Tea Party with the Christian Right label actually would have a plausible RS basis [see: source], so even if someone were to associate the two in the future, you'd still run into problems trying to revert it out. BigK HeX (talk) 12:53, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I was confused. When I saw, "christian right" in the category, my concern was that the CR inclusion in that category with the words "tea party" right next to it, would be interpreted down the line as associating the TPM as an outgrowth of the Christian right agenda and that is not the case. Those are two very different agendas. The core agenda in the TPM is financial, relating to the foreclosures and the debt burden on the U.S. taxpayer for the bailout, etc. Nobody started a tea party in 2008/2009 because they wanted prayer in public schools. Editors sometimes, even with AGF here, apply categories as a way of POV pushing. The edit was a revert and I should probably have just removed the one category.Malke 2010 (talk) 17:26, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

The consevative category is a parent category of the tea party category and is unnecessary per WP:CAT. --Threeafterthree (talk) 12:57, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that's a good point.Malke 2010 (talk) 17:26, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, WP:CAT#Eponymous categories is ambivalent as to whether the phrase "most specific categories" applies to this instance, but thank you for providing an argument. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

What do people think of the "Right-wing populism" category? It seems to apply. I don't see the relevance of the edit summary when it was removed, "They are not right-wing populism, although I know that is what most Dems and Left media are trying to push." --Ronz (talk) 16:01, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, it's difficult trying to sort out whether or not labels apply. I don't think Tea Party Movement members would identify themselves as right-wing populists, nor have I heard Democrats decrying them as ring-wing populists, but there are elements of the description for right-wing populism that might apply. Here is the article lede from the entry on Wikipedia, with some portions bolded for emphasis. AzureCitizen (talk) 16:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Right Wing Populism (also known as radical right-wing populism) is a political strategy and rhetorical style combining right-wing ideology with a populist style of campaigning. Right-wing populism is a core element of several New Right political parties and movements in contemporary Europe. European radical right populists founded the Euronat association in 2005.

The strategy of right-wing populism relies on a combination of ethno-nationalism with anti-elitist populist rhetoric and a radical critique of existing political institutions.

Right-wing populist parties and movements differ from many far right parties in that they accept representative democracy and disavow violent political tactics, yet they are considered radical because they oppose the present political system; right-wing because they oppose the welfare state and have traditional policies on immigration; and populist because they appeal to the fears and frustrations of common citizens. These parties and movements sometimes distinguish themselves from the traditional Right by their support for social welfare programmes, gender equality, gay rights, and separation of church and state. These parties often present themselves as the defenders of traditional liberal ideas. Other RRP parties wish to preserve the dominance of the Christian values as a means of preserving the national culture.

Some scholars see populist movements potentially serving as a precursor creating the building blocks of fascist movements. For example, conspiracist scapegoating employed by various populist movements can create "a seedbed for fascism" in the United States, argues Mary Rupert. Mark Rupert sees echoes of this in some far-right isolationist movements that view globalization as a threat to American interests. Other researchers have found that right-wing populist parties draw voters who are concerned about the cultural impact of immigration, poor economic conditions, and perceived unresponsiveness of mainstream political parties.

The last paragraph sounds more like what they call 'fringe' groups in the U.S. The TPM is mainstream. The fringe groups in the U.S. seem to be the KKK and militia types who live in the woods, etc. I don't see any of that applying to a group like Tea Party Patriots who make bus trips to D.C. to lobby Congress, or the groups who regularly protest Fed policies, taxes, etc. The TPM agenda is right in the article. Doesn't sound fascist. Malke 2010 (talk) 17:42, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Malke that the paragraph describing Rupert's particular opinion doesn't really apply to the TP movement, but the rest of the article appears to describe the movement to a 'T'. It appears to be an applicable description, but the issue would be easily resolved if a reliable source describing the TP movement as such were cited. Perhaps something from the "Left media trying to push" that description? Xenophrenic (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I've heard the TPM regularly labeled a right-wing populist movement without much contention - and I would agree with the label as well (but of course that's original research). I've also heard it labeled a far-right organization (IIRC, even the BBC called it as such), but that label has been debated as well (the WSJ, for example recently published an editorial complaining that European press on the TPM tented to be unfairly slanted in this direction - and it actually made a good argument for it as well). Magog the Ogre (talk) 21:49, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

The history of the movement, defined in this article, clearly puts them outside what would be called far-right. They started as a response to TARP, and grew in response to the Stimulus and Health Care Reform laws on the basis of government overreach and government debt. These are clearly Libertarian beliefs. Even the so called boogymen (Koch's) are well known libertarians. The political Left is trying to label the movement as far right to make it less likely that independents will be part of this movement. This is all quite obvious and reported. If the movement really was a far-right movement they would not have nearly the strength that they do since they would be nothing more than a subset or the Republican Party. If you really want a view of a far-right movement look no farther than the Christian coalition from the early 90's. Their movement was almost completely related to moral issues, and largely anti-abortion. Those movements started in churches. Outside of a few oddballs, the TPM is completely void of true right-wing players. Hell Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" is basically required reading. Arzel (talk) 23:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

"This is all quite obvious and reported." Howso? --Ronz (talk) 23:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Um, did you read the mediate link? Have you watched MSNBC for a day? Arzel (talk) 23:31, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

How about simply answering the question? --Ronz (talk) 23:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I do have to agree that this is a movement with a primarily libertarian focus, and that defining an economically libertarian movement could go either way. In this case, though, the movement isn't always heavily libertarian; in fact most of its causes have been taken up by the Republican Party, one of two major parties in the US, and many are supported by a majority of Americans. By that definition, we'd have to call the anti-war movement of 2003 to be far left, a truly unfair label IMHO. Mind you, there are far right elements to the movement (e.g., people that want to dissolve Social Security or the Federal Reserve), just as there were far-left elements to the 2003 anti-war movement (protests by overt communists come to mind). This is the only fair characterization. Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

The Tea Party candidates don't sound like right wing populists. They sound like Reagan Democrats. "It's morning again in America, yay!" Remember that?Malke 2010 (talk) 16:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Not radical right

the key terms in the definition of radical right = radical because they oppose the present political system. The Tea Party does not oppose the American system of states, taxes, federal government, Courts, Congress, elections etc. They take a normal part and expect the people they elect to participate in Congress. They insist they are following the rules and no RS has challenged that. -- for example, they do NOT recommend people refuse to pay taxes (the 1773 Tea Party did refuse to pay the tax on tea). Rjensen (talk) 20:36, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

You all might be interested in a recent New Yorker article by historian Sean Wilentz. For what it is worth Wilentz compares the Tea Party and some of its favorite sons like Glenn Beck with older groups that he has no problem calling "far right", e.g. the John Birch Society.Griswaldo (talk) 01:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

the Wilentz article focuses on Beck's use of the history books written by Willard Cleon Skousen a professor at Brigham Young University. Wilentz notes that Skousen "did not join the Birch Society". Skousen seems to have gotten many of his ideas from Georgetown History professor Carroll Quigley-- Quigley also greatly influenced his student Bill Clinton, according to Clinton. Rjensen (talk) 02:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Given that Wilentz appears to be an unabashed Clinton liberal I don't find it surprising that he would collate Beck and the Tea Party with "Far right" ideology. There seems to be common theme that Social Libertarian ideals are fine, but Fiscal Libertarian ideals are far-right. Arzel (talk) 02:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, good point about it being okay for social ideals but not fiscal.Malke 2010 (talk) 17:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

What I find most interesting in the New Yorker / Sean Wilentz article is the way it explains the rise of the Tea Party. No astroturfing, but simply as lack of leadership in the moderate centrist wing of the Republican Party. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 04:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

If you look at how they behave, and I'm not talking about the fringe that shows up, they do seem to be the moderates. They also sound like they have Reagan Democrats in their ranks.Malke 2010 (talk) 16:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Arzel, Wilentz may have his own political motivations. Fair enough, but Rjensen is not characterizing the article accurately. 1) Wilentz does draw a direct comparison to the John Birch Society right off the bat. 2) He then discusses Skousen, whom he identifies as even more radically right than the John Birch Society. Anyway I have no desire to discuss the content of this entry any further. I just wanted to offer you all an additional source. Regards.Griswaldo (talk) 13:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

NYTimes article on Tea Party movement/candidates

Found this today. Interesting read. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/10/15/us/politics/20101015-tea-party-groups.html  :) Malke 2010 (talk) 22:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Stick to the Tea Party

The article is about the Tea Party and its issues, and how supporters and opponents respond. So I dropped long quotes by Obama defending his record in a general way, while keeping one pointed directly at the Tea party. Likewise poll results on scads of unrelated issues don't fit here. Rjensen (talk) 01:38, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

The opinion polls are direct information, so should stay. --Ronz (talk) 01:55, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

The Obama quote is directly apropos, and should go back as well. PhGustaf (talk) 02:05, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

The article is about the Tea Party movement and its issues, including the responses of its biggest target: the Obama Administration. I returned to the article responses from the administration that specifically illustrate that certain Tea Party positions do not make sense in light of actual facts. In particular, placing blame on the recovery act and claiming excessive taxing when taxes have been reduced for 95% of Americans. I also returned other content that the cited sources convey as directly related to the Tea Party movement. With such a loosely defined, wide-reaching movement such as this, attempting to pigeon-hole it in a neat little article that only describes one side of the coin is not likely to work. Xenophrenic (talk) 02:07, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

When the Obama Admin talks about the Tea party it can be and is quoted; every day the Obama people boast about their record--that's what politicians always do at election time--and it is not relevant to this article. Keep in mind that the Tea Party mostly criticizes Congress (not just Obama) and includes attacks on Republicans--many of whom were defeated in primaries by angry Tea Partiers. As for polls, the main results come from a poll deliberately selected for attention because of its results, which differ sharply from Gallup and other national surveys. The U of Washington poll, it turns out, was based on N= 117 strong supporters and N = 66 strong opponents in six selected states. (source = http://depts.washington.edu/uwiser/racepolitics.html )That does not pass the reliability tests used by pollsters for reporting data, and does not pretend to be a valid national sample (it came from 6 states). Furthermore the data was put here, according to the footnote, because it caught the attention of an anonymous blogger who looked for info hostile to the Tea Party. That is, it was deliberately selected instead of the many polls that gave the opposite conclusion because the commentator could use it to demean the movement. That violates NPOV rules that insists Wiki articles must strive for balance. (The blogger asked "Are tea partiers racist?" and said "So a new poll by researchers at the University of Washington caught my eye." -- ie it was selected to prove racism, as opposed to polls that don't show racism. The blooger admitted it was an outlier poll: "These results cast the tea-party crowd in a different light from other recent surveys." source = http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggle/2010/04/09/new-poll-finds-tea-partiers-have-more-racist-attitudes.html )

I have already pointed out in detail how that particular poll is worthless, yet because Newsweek produced a biased report using the worthless results it does not matter. Unfortunately this study didn't recieve much attention in the MSM so it's obvious flaws are not reported either, even the preposterious claim in the section "A seven state study conducted from the University of Washington found that Tea Party movement supporters within those states were "more likely to be racially resentful" than the population as a whole, even when controlling for partisanship and ideology". The Newsweek source is original research (bad at that) from what the actual poll says, when it should be noted that it is Strong supporters against Strong against. Sections like this show all that is wrong with WP and there is little that can be done to fix it least it be called original research. Arzel (talk) 21:34, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

When the Obama Admin comments on the Tea Party, it can be, should be, and is quoted. If you would like to remove those quotes, please come up with a justification stronger than "it sounds like he's boasting about his record." Most of that "rhetoric" also directly addresses the TP's core issues of taxes (he's actually reduced them); recovery spending (experts across the board agreed it was necessary); and spending solutions (viable ones completely missing from the TP positions). As for polls: Of course all polls that produce unflattering results are flawed, everyone knows that, and everyone knows all unflattering poll results are produced by biased, unscrupulous cretins with hidden agendas. Unfortunately, they are also reported on in reliable sources that convey the poll results are both relevant and applicable (your personal interpretations notwithstanding). Xenophrenic (talk) 04:14, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

@Rjensen. You deleted a block of opinion polls, yet your edit comment only objected to a single-state poll. I restored the remainder of the text not covered by your edit comment. I'll note that my edit should not be taken as having any particular prejudice against the poll of Washington state, and that it may well be worthy of inclusion. BigK HeX (talk) 22:14, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Your edit restored what? As I look at it now, it appears only to have deleted text. Mistake? Xenophrenic (talk) 23:48, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Probably a mistake then. Maybe someone already restored the entire block, which means my edit would only have deleted the Washington State-only text. I meant to (mostly) undo the large deletion in this Rjensen edit. BigK HeX (talk) 23:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

yes I agree, and I deleted the rest of the Washington poll. It has multiple flaws: a) based on 110 tea partiers (far lower than any other poll); it is not national; it is not a well-established poll; it does follow standard polling rules as it does publish its margin of error data (which may be around +/- 9 for n=110) Rjensen (talk) 23:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I returned the polling data. I've reviewed the reliable sources to which that content is cited, and I see no indication in those reliable sources that the poll "has multiple flaws" or doesn't "follow standard polling rules". (The margin of error is 3.1%, by the way.) Xenophrenic (talk) 23:48, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

The margin of error for the total sample is 3.1%, the margin of error for the smaller splits is no where near 3.1%, it simply not mathmatically possible. Arzel (talk) 03:55, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Definitely don't see any reason to discount the reliably-sourced multi-state study over an editor's unsourced claims that it "has multiple flaws." BigK HeX (talk) 23:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I misread the section header as "Stick it to the Tea Party." Needless to say, I was unimpressed with the neutrality. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:18, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

not populist?

I see "populist" has been removed from the article, not appearing anywhere. Yet "conservative" appears 19 times. I believe this is misleading, because the Tea Party movement has distinctly less support from the conservative establishment/elites than, say, Reaganism. There are several examples cited of Tea Party-endorse candidates upsetting "establishment" candidates without any analysis or explanation provided as to what the common element of these upsets is.Bdell555 (talk) 19:54, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Although it is hard to generalize about such a loose-knit and diverse movement, I think that "libertarian" would be much closer to accurate than "conservative". (I'm not too sure about "populist") One example of this has been TP conflicts with conservatives over religion, as well as the pervasive battles in the primaries of the type that you describe. North8000 (talk) 02:32, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Heath Shuler

Heath Shuler was not there. Story from the WSJ. Arzel (talk) 04:18, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

It definitely is a source for Shuler's claim he wasn't there, plus that the entire matter is utterly confused. Ravensfire (talk) 04:22, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Shuler

I've been requesting reliable sources which justify the deletion of [newspaper article] sourced material. BigK HeX (talk) 04:20, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

The source provided so far is a WSJ op-ed (here). If it's even regarded as reliable, then I'm still not sure that justifies deletion of text sourced to an actual news article. Was there something more substantial? BigK HeX (talk) 04:28, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

This seems pedantic, but I was able to find another source here. Arzel (talk) 04:34, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Much better source. Thanks. BigK HeX (talk) 04:38, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Good, I am glad we can agree. Arzel (talk) 04:39, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Know Nothing

Sources

• Sworn to silence, members of clubs such as the Supreme Order of the Star-Spangled Banner became known as "Know Nothings" because (like Sgt. Schultz in the old Hogan's Heroes TV series) "I know nothing" was their response when questioned about their activities. The Know Nothings, with their anti-immigration emphasis, morphed into a political movement. Their candidates won elections for governor in seven states in the 1850s, including Massachusetts and New York. Philadelphia Mayor Robert Conrad, who ran as a Whig, was later outed as a Know Nothing. [..] [An immigration issue] [..] Immigration aside, today's tea-party movement can be compared to the Know Nothings in its ability to successfully inject itself into political races and move candidates to declare allegiance to it even as they run for office under a different label - largely Republican. Like the Know Nothings, the tea partyers are energized, and their energy draws people. The question is whether that energy can be sustained. It's possible that tea-party candidates will be so co-opted by the party they joined to make themselves more electable that they will lose the qualities that created the buzz that pushed their movement to prominence.
  • "With the tea party, history repeats itself; The movement seems an echo of Know Nothings." editorial page editor Harold Jackson. Philadelphia Inquirer. Philadelphia, Pa.: Oct 10, 2010. pg. C.1 [3]

• According to state Assembly candidate Tim Donnelly, a Tea Party Republican running in the 59th District, the Church "is totally in favor of illegal immigration because it fills their pews." Hogwash. In the time-honored tradition that brought the United States the Know-Nothings of the 19th century, a resurgent Ku Klux Klan in the 1920s and John F. Kennedy haters in the 1960s, Donnelly went after the Roman Catholic Church.
  • "Tea Party candidate blames Catholic Church for illegal immigration" Frank Girardot.(editor of the Pasadena Star-News) Whittier Daily News. Whittier, Calif.: Oct 4, 2010.

• Backward-looking civil religions carry special dangers. They may become xenophobic, blaming economic and social ills upon elements whose culture and religion violates what is imagined as "real America." The sacred texts of such a civil religion are hodge-podge citations of bible and the U.S. Constitution. Absorbing the ever-present paranoid in American politics, conspiracies both right and left thrive, protected from factual truth by anti-intellectualism. Finally, backward-looking civil religions have gained political influence by filling the void created when one of the major political parties begins to implode. These are very broad strokes of history, but they are verified in the Know-Nothings of the ante-bellum United States when the Whig Party proved incapable of surviving the slavery issue. Catholics suffered greatly from the Know-Nothings because their cause was a restoration of White Anglo-Saxon Protestant (WASP) hegemony as the real America. The Know-Nothings soon disappeared, leaving space for the visionary Republican Party of Lincoln. Know-Nothingism reappeared, however, when Catholic Al Smith ran for president in 1928 braving the Ku Klux Klan that had marched down Pennsylvania Avenue, boasting that 15% of white Americans were KKK members. The Democratic Party thereafter split into a liberal New Deal wing and a right-wing faction of Dixiecrats. The latter eventually joined the Southern strategy of Republican Richard Nixon's Silent Majority. Today the East Coast Country-Club/Midwestern Republican Party is being co-opted by the Tea Party's version of old-time WASP civil religion. The targets today are new: Islam, a religion identified with terrorists; and Latinos and Latinas (mostly Catholics), caricatured as "illegals." But the xenophobia is familiar.
  • "Tea-publicans and the Know-Nothing recycle" Anthony M. Stevens-Arroyo The Washington Post September 23, 2010 [4]

• Which brings us back to the Know Nothings, the 19th Century political movement that sprung from fear of Irish and German immigrants coming to our shores. Those who attended Catholic schools are familiar with the Know Nothings, for they preceded the "No Irish Need Apply" crowd with their anti-Catholic fervor. The Tea Party is not new; it is just another example of shameful anti-immigrant bigotry that has always been part of America's history. It is no accident that the Tea Party and its cry of "take back our country" was launched after the first black president was elected. "Take back our country" is code for: Only whites are legitimate leaders. Hence the birth certificate nonsense.
  • "Who is drinking the Palin Kool-Aid?; Massachusetts had thoughtful candidates on both primary ballots, but scarier scenarios are developing elsewhere" JoAnn Fitzpatrick . The Patriot Ledger. Quincy, Mass.: Sep 18, 2010. pg. 9 [5]

• America has a long tradition of contempt for big government and the secret machinations of Washington. The Tea Party's ancestors lie amid the dispossessed southern states defeated in the civil war. It has its precursors, indeed, in the American Party of the 1850s, the proudly anti-immigrant "Know Nothings". Richard Nixon's appeal to the "silent majority" was an appeal to the sort of American who flocks to Ms Palin. Mr Reagan cultivated the type assiduously, as did Mr Bush.
  • "Will America really turn right to sup with the new Tea Party?" Ian Bell. The Herald. Glasgow (UK): Sep 18, 2010. pg. 13

• Populist movements have generally failed in America because of their extremism, the "Know Nothings" in the 1830s, the William Jennings Bryan crowd in the 1890s, the Birchers in the 1950s. That's a likely outcome for the tea partiers as well.
  • "Emotional rationalization spurs new populism" STEVE HAYCOX COMMENT. Anchorage Daily News. Anchorage, Alaska: Sep 17, 2010. pg. A.11
  • Steve Haycox is a professor of history at the University of Alaska Anchorage.

• But a strand of Americans, especially people who see themselves as the dispossessed "real" people of the heartland (not those cosmopolitans in New York in LA) see Washington not simply as greedy and corrupt but as a plot to undermine liberty and free enterprise. Under strong leadership, such "know-nothing" movements have usually been beaten back by progress and prosperity. But the American middle (ie skilled working) class has been suffering job losses and wage stagnation for decades.
  • "Political briefing Paranoia politics crosses the Atlantic" Michael White. The Guardian. London (UK): Sep 10, 2010. pg. 4

• Rand Paul, the Tea Party-backed GOP Senate candidate in Kentucky, ... [..] has yet to retreat from his support of a call for Congress to find a way to undo the Constitution's 14th Amendment guarantee of birthright citizenship. In 1856, the Know Nothing Party's platform called for a waiting period of 21 years before an immigrant could become a citizen. Paul and other candidates, such as Utah's Tea Party-Republican Mike Lee, say children born here to illegal aliens shouldn't automatically become U.S. citizens. [..] With the general election fewer than 60 days away, voters ought to focus on reversing the meteoric rise of the Tea Partiers, who are the linear successors to the aptly named anti-immigration Know Nothing movement that flourished for a brief time during the 1850s. It elected eight governors, 43 members of the U.S. House and five U.S. senators during that time. But it ultimately collapsed from the weight of its own intolerance and blurred political vision. The Tea Party movement claims to be rooted in the traditional -- but long compromised -- Republican ideals of fiscal responsibility, small government and free markets. But its support of Arizona's immigration law signals an intolerance of Hispanics that mirrors the Know Nothing movement's attempt to keep Catholics out of this country. Left alone, there's a good chance the Tea Party will sputter out of existence as quickly as the Know Nothing movement did. But that may not be fast enough, given the stand Tea Party candidates are taking on issues.
  • "'Tea Party' is today's 'Know Nothing' movement" DeWayne Wickham. USA TODAY. McLean, Va.: Sep 7, 2010. pg. A.11 [6]

• Mark Brewer, an associate professor of Political Science at University of Maine at Orono, also cited the surprisingly large Republican turnout on the Tea Party movement, whose cloaked composition he compared to the 19th-century secret organizations like the anti-immigrant Know Nothing Society.
  • "GOP turnout largest in 60 years" Kennebec Journal. Augusta, Me.: Jun 11, 2010. pg. A.1

• From the Know-Nothings to the People’s Party: Over the course of American history, the populist instinct, now resurgent in the Tea Party movement, has oscillated between a desire to transform, and so create a new order of things, and a desire to restore a yearned-for (or imagined) old order. Before the Civil War, one such movement that caught both these urges was colloquially dubbed the “Know-Nothings” (not for any anti-intellectualism, but because its members deliberately conducted much of their business in secret -- hence, if questioned, were instructed to say, “I know nothing”). Know-nothing-ism exuded the desire to move forward and backward at the same time. During the 1840s and 1850s, it swept across much of the country, North and South. There were “know-nothing” candies, “know-nothing” toothpicks, and “know-nothing” stagecoaches. Soon enough, the movement evolved into a national political party, the American Party, that appealed to small farmers, small businessmen, and working people. Its attraction was two-fold. The party vociferously opposed Irish and German Catholic immigration to the U.S. (as well as that of Chinese and Chilean immigrants working in the gold fields of California). Yet, in the North, it also denounced slavery. As planks in a political program, nativism and anti-slavery might seem like an odd couple, but in the minds of the party’s followers they were joined at the hip. As Know-Nothings saw it, the Papacy and the South’s slave-owning planter elite were both conspiring to undermine a democratic society of masterless men.
  • "The strange history of Tea Party populism: The resentment fueling today's Tea Party movement is as old as America" Steve Fraser and Joshua B. Freeman, Salon.com Monday, May 3, 2010 [7]

• To be sure, the Tea Party's brand of aggrieved populism -- and its composition of mostly white, angry, middle-class voters -- has deep roots in the United States, flaring up during times of change. But observers who have drawn comparisons to the Know-Nothings, the racist, paranoid, anti-Catholic, and anti-immigrant party that surged in the 1850's, are reading the movement far too superficially.
  • "Tea Time in America" Daily News Egypt. Cairo: Feb 28, 2010.

• No doubt third parties such as the Know-Nothings have historically enjoyed a short life span in America. Historian Richard Hofstadter famously observed, "Third parties are like bees: Once they have stung, they die." But the tea party may wield a very potent stinger. Its fortunes likely will be bolstered by the towering federal budget deficits that the administration is accruing.
  • "The 'tea party' dance; Will the movement sink or save the conservatives?" Jacob Heilbrunn. Los Angeles Times. Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 21, 2010. pg. A.28
  • Jacob Heilbrunn is a senior editor at the National Interest and the author of "They Knew They Were Right: The Rise of the Neocons."

• The first-ever Tea Party Nation convention this weekend in Nashville, Tenn., taps into two great, and sometimes troubling, traditions in American history - both of which have to do with the unique democratic experiment that is America. On the one hand is the Jeffersonian strain - a return to the ideals of the individual and the blessings of small, restrained government. On the other hand is a strain of McCarthy-type paranoia that started well before the mid-1900s. In the 1850s, it gave rise to the anti-immigrant Know-Nothing Party, and according to some critics, it was a factor in the xenophobic supremacist movements of the late 20th century.
  • "'Tea party' movement: lessons from earlier uprisings; While movements like the tea party have fervor and anger, historians caution that such groups can quickly lose momentum and influence." Patrik Jonsson. The Christian Science Monitor. Boston, Mass.: Feb 5, 2010.
  • Patrik Jonsson Staff writer

• The Tea Party movement, as we know, is mostly comprised of patriotic Americans who are concerned about the drift of the country away from prosperity and, they believe, freedom. It is also has more nuts than a forest of almond trees.
  • "The Know-Nothing Party Redux" Joe Klein, Time. February 6, 2010 [8]

Discussion

Commentators often compare TPM to the 19th century Know Nothing party. The comparisons cover several different aspects of the Know Nothing party's existence, especially as a populist third party and as a nativist, anti-immigration movement. Here are some excerpts of editorials and analyses, but there are many more like them. I suggest that these comparisons are so common that they merit mention in the article. It's probably worth a two-sentence paragraph in the "Other commentaries on the movement" section. Maybe something like, "Several commentators have drawn comparisons to the 19th century Know Nothing party. Journalists and editorialists have said the movements share these qualities: ...", with a list of some of the comparisons.   Will Beback  talk  09:14, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi Will, interesting comparison but it could be construed as a form of 'journalistic astroturf' to discredit the movement. I don't think you can reach back to a setting with entirely different circumstances and apply them to present day. This movement arose from the massive financial crisis, not from shared concerns with the Know Nothing Party. I could be wrong. You should ask RJensen. He knows a lot about that period in history. Also, can anyone speed up the archive bot? That guy who tinkers with archive bots changed the settings and we've got stuff here from July. Thanks.Malke 2010 (talk) 13:52, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I fixed the bot.Malke 2010 (talk) 14:09, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

The Tea Party is obviously one of a long line of poplist movements in the U.S. I suppose some liberal columnists may use the comparison with the Know Nothings (who were also populists) because of the double meaning of KN. But we should stick with notable opinions, and none of these sources meet that. TFD (talk) 15:45, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what "notable opinions" are, nor why they apply here or anywhere else in Wikipedia. There are multiple, independent, reliable sources. That should suffice for any NPOV, OR, NOT, V, etc concerns. --Ronz (talk) 16:02, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Notable views would be ones presented by people who are experts in history, and their views would be published in academic journals. It does apply elsewhere in Wikipedia. Plenty of sources claim that Obama is not an American, 911 was an inside job, etc. But we give no credence to these views unless the experts do. In fact we do not even report these views in articles about these movements until secondary sources have begun to write about them. Using common sense, if I wanted to know about Know Nothings, I would read a history book nothing a current newspaper column by someone who is not a historian. TFD (talk) 16:29, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd rather we follow NPOV and NOT rather than censor what information is presented in this article. --Ronz (talk) 16:56, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:NPOV says, "the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all". Unless you can should that these views are widely held, NPOV does not allow its inclusion. TFD (talk) 17:06, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

"There are multiple, independent, reliable sources. That should suffice for any NPOV, OR, NOT, V, etc concerns." --Ronz (talk) 17:15, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

It does not. We do not conduct our own original research into how independent sources view topics, but find reliable sources explaining how they are perceived. In other words you need to find a source that says, "Many writers compare the Tea Party with the Know Nothings." As Rjensen pointed out there are over 700 scholarly papers on the Tea Party and none of them compare them with the KNs, let alone acknowledge that the comparison has any credibility in the literature. TFD (talk) 17:50, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

TFD is right. And, to put it a couple of other ways, sources fulfill sourcing criteria. There are other criteria for inclusion that must be met. For example, synthesis, undue weight and being germane to the article. Also, if the source is the one initiating the assertion, then they are primary and not suitable even if they meet other RS criteria. North8000 (talk) 17:55, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

This article is not being subjected to such standards of sourcing (and probably cannot be given the very recent origins of TPM). The imposition for such standards on a single topic to exclude that topic violates NOT and NPOV. --Ronz (talk) 17:57, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

What you just said does not address what I wrote. And wp sourcing standards apply even if the topic is new. North8000 (talk) 18:41, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

If you don't mind my chiming in here, I have to agree that this information is well-sourced and belongs in the article. Dylan Flaherty (talk) 18:55, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

North8000, "What you just said does not address what I wrote." Sorry, I believe I already had. Please explain what specific policies, guidelines, etc you're think are applicable. You didn't mention any in particular, so I assumed that they were the ones already mentioned and addressed. --Ronz (talk) 19:24, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

That your proposed edit violates OR, NPOV and RS has already been explained and no further explanation is necessary. If you would like to use the available noticeboards or some or type of content dispute resolution then go ahead, but please it is unhelpful to keep repeating the same points. TFD (talk) 19:43, 19 October 2010 (UTC)