Talk:Australia

The theory of Portuguese discovery and Torres...

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

For the sake of clarity I've created a new section and included some of the discussion from above, that had moved into this topic. Hope you dont mind, JCRBNickm57 (talk) 23:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Surely you mean to suggest "first sighting by Torres"? Quiros was on his way back to Mexico when Torres was navigating the strait that now bears his name. Quiros could not be said to still be in command of an expedition that he had abandoned! My view is Torres' success was remarkable, and I think Brett Hilder has established a high likelyhood that Torres did see the tip of what is now Cape York. However, its clear from existing records that (if they did see Cape York) the Spanish did not recognise the land they saw for what it was. Thus, the sighting, if it occurred, contributed nothing to European knowledge of the world. This is also Mike Pearson's thinking about the contentious Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia- if it happened, it contributed nothing to "expand European knowledge of Australia, the portrayal of Jave La Grande having no greater status that any other conjectural portrayal of Terra Australis." For that reason, I feel its not appropriate to mention either in the short summary on this page. Both Torres, Quiros and "the Theory..." all have detailed pages of their own! Nickm57 (talk) 22:10, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Nickm57, yes, I meant the "first sighting by Torres" who was part of Queiros' original expedition. Indeed, there are different sources which prove this first sighting. You mentioned Brett Hilder and his "high likelyhood" that this ocurred. There are other sources. In The First Discovery of Australia and New Guinea (1906) [1] the author, George Collingridge says:

"Sailing along the shores of the islands to the north of Australia, between Cape York and Prince of Wales Island, Torres regained the coast of New Guinea [...] He had discovered Australia without being aware of the fact, and had completed the Spanish circumnavigation of New Guinea."

See this map for the full route of Torres [2]. In a timeline at the end of the book, Collingridge also writes: "1606. Torres sails towards Australia from the New Hebrides, passes through the straits that bear his name, and discovers Australia, without, apparently, being aware of the fact." So according to this historian Torres was the first European to sight Australia (and to sail its waters) although he did not make landfall.

Regarding the prior discovery of Australia by the Portuguese, there are also a number of sources which prove this, largely based on the Dieppe maps, specially this one [3] and this one [4] which show the Australian landmass south of Java and Sumatra, but farther to the east. In the same work Collingridge explains that these maps were purposely distorted by the Portuguese so that Australia appeared in the hemisphere assigned to Portugal by Pope Alexander (in the Treaty of Tordesillas). Collingridge provides an interesting illustration comparing the real and the fictitious location of Australia here [5]. He also explains:

"the Portuguese, who were the first to make discoveries in these seas, must have been perfectly aware that the coasts they had charted lay more to the east, and if they dragged them out of position and placed them under Java as shown in these maps, it was in order to secure to themselves the lion's share, for their line of demarcation, as fixed by Pope Alexander".

So according to the above information, both Torres (in 1606) and the Portuguese (in the 16th century) arrived in Australia before the Dutch. Whether they made this knowledge available to other Europeans or not, is not really the point. Many discoveries were kept secret during the 16th and 17th centuries so that competing nations did not threaten trade or power in the newly discovered regions. Regarding the fictitious position of Australia in the above-mentioned map, this is what Spanish pilot Juan Gaetan said about the Portuguese charts:

"I saw and knew all their charts. They were all cunningly falsified, with longitudes and latitudes distorted, and land-features drawn in at places and stretched out at others to suit their purposes, etc., etc., and when they found out that I understood their little pranks they made strenuous efforts to get me to enlist in their service, and made me advantageous offers, which, however, I scorned to accept"' [6]

So clearly it was customary to protect valuable information like maps and trade routes by keeping them secret and even falsifying documents. With this in mind, it seems highly probably that the Portuguese arrived Australia in the 16th century. Therefore, the article should mention both of these prior discoveries. JCRB (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Scope of the history section in this article.

A WP article on Australia, in its short history summary section, should not need to include reference to unsubstantiated or speculative matters, and this includes suggestions of voyages by the Portuguese. The full History of Australia and European exploration of Australia articles, linked from this page, do make passing mention of this theory. The same applies to speculation about what Torres may have seen, even though his voyage was documented.

My benchmark for whether it’s appropriate to mention this theory in this article is still based on Mike Pearson’s comment. Whether such sightings occurred or not, they went unrecorded and were not exploited or celebrated. They contributed nothing to European knowledge of Australia, and therefore are at best, curiosities of our own history.

Many reading this discussion will have contributed to articles on European exploration of Australia and read Collingridge’s works of the late 19th century. May I recommend to interested Wikipedians some of the more recent writers like Bill Richardson, Gayle K. Brunelle and Robert King. I think this is where informed contemporary thinking is, on the Dieppe maps and any possible connection to Australia. Nickm57 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

By the way JCRB – you suggest "many other' discoveries of the 16th and 17th century were kept secret. I would have more sympathy for your argument to include this topic if I could think of any comparable secret discoveries! On the contrary, I suggest most "new world" geographical discoveries were blabbed about in 16th and 17th century Europe very quickly! Nickm57 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Generally unknown discoveries: European maritime expeditions from the Age of Exploration up to the 18th century were usually kept secret to prevent rival powers from gaining access to profitable trade, or from establishing bases that would threaten their colonies. This meant either locking away the documents that recorded the discovery, or distorting the charts as I explained above. Discussing 18th century Spanish travel literature, Professor Garcia Sanchez from Eastern Washington University writes:

"Although the production of [Spanish] narrative was very abundant, due to the secretiveness the Borbonic government kept on those explorations, they didn’t have a lot of popular acknowledgement like similar narratives in the rest of Europe".

There are territories which the Portuguese or the Spanish discovered in the 16th century, but due to the policy of discretion this has not been acknowledged sufficiently. In territories where a different European power eventually took over, this is specially the case. For example, according to this theory Hawaii was probably discovered by the Spanish in 1555. See also this article[7]. The discovery of the Spice Islands or Moluccas was also kept secret by the Portuguese for a few decades until the unification of Spain and Portugal under the Iberian Union. The route of the Manila Galleons itself was kept rigorously secret for almost its full duration (1565-1815) allowing the Viceroyalty of New Spain and the Casa de Contratacion to operate a transpacific monopoly between the Philippines and the Americas undisturbed for at least one century. So not all discoveries were disclosed. In fact, documents of exploration such as logbooks and maps were sometimes locked away for a very long time. According to this book (quoting the WP article) "the Hawaiian islands were not known to have any valuable resources, so the Spanish would have not made an effort to settle them". The same thing happened to the Mariana Islands (specially Guam) discovered by Magellan in 1521, and visited by various explorers afterwards (among them Legazpi and Urdaneta in 1565) but not settled until 1668.

Scope of the history section: As for the scope of the history section, I think we need to be more open-minded towards information that we are not used to. Just because the Portuguese discovery of Australia is not mainstream in English-language literature, does not mean it is inaccurate. Just because the Torres discovery is not "generally accepted" nowadays does not mean it should be ruled out. Let the reader decide that for himself. A short mention of these two possible discoveries and a link does not in any way harm the article. What's more, it contributes to it. JCRB (talk) 18:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I've said my bit for now, I'm sure the many other contributors to this page have an opinion too.Nickm57 (talk) 23:37, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes and I agree. JCRB, there is simply no scope for discussion of these obscure matters in this summary article, as to do so would run up against Wikipedia's policies about due and undue weight. — cj | talk 06:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. I think I've produced sufficient sources to justify at least a small reference to the prior discoveries. These are not "obscure matters" but verifiable information which is relevant to the article. JCRB (talk) 16:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

It's quite irrelevant, because whether it happened of not, it had no bearing on the creation of the Australia we know today, and has had no effect on Australia's development. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:31, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Still, it's part of Australia's history. JCRB (talk) 17:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

That may be so, but it is in no way of such importance that it deserves a spot in the summary of Australia's history, a short summary at that. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I've been watching these discussions with interest and while I didn't really want to get involved I'm forced to because that dead horse is really starting to stink. I have to agree with the arguments presented by others, there's really no place for mention of this in this article. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Totally agree with above. There has not been any consensus to add the info, despite pages of discussion. Dead horse.--Dmol (talk) 07:34, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't say a constructive discussion "stinks". All of this is useful information about Australia's early history. As for the "dead horse"(?) the long discussion was about Etymology. That's over. This discussion is about prior discoveries. Please don't try to kill the discussion just because you don't agree. JCRB (talk) 21:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid you've missed what we're getting at, which is that the discussion was pretty much ended so long ago that, like most dead things that remain unburied, it's going nowhere and needs to be buried as soon as possible. The discussion has been going on for seven weeks now, we've just changed tack slightly, and you're the only one who doesn't seem to get that there's no place for any of this information in this article. The discussion is no longer constructive, and hasn't been for some time. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:46, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Additional Sources

To move forward, I will produce a number of additional sources to support that both the Portuguese and the Torres discoveries deserve a mention. First, let me say that when reading the contradicting versions of the discovery of Australia, it was surprising to see that most sources agreed that Willem Janszoon had arrived before Torres. The Dutch explorer was there in March 1606, whereas Torres arrived in August or September 1606. If Torres had sighted Australia after the Dutch, why do historians like Earp (1852) or Collingridge (1895) claim that Torres discovered it? Or why do many others like Clark (1962), Rients (1969) and Ziegler (1970) dwell on this possibility? Why the debate if Janszoon clearly preceded Torres?

I looked into this and found out that Janszoon actually ignored he was in Australia. Janszoon thought he was in a southern extension of New Guinea [8]. That's why authors such as Collingridge claim that Torres discovered the continent, not Janszoon. The Dutch navigator thought he was sailing along the south of New Guinea, not in a new island. This fact would disqualify him as the "first discoverer". This is an extract from the Project Gutemberg Australia article cited above:

"Willem Janszoon, was actually in Torres Strait in March 1606, a few weeks before Torres sailed through it. But provisions ran short, and nine of the crew were murdered by natives [...] so that the Duyfken did not penetrate beyond Cape Keer-weer on the west side of the Cape York Peninsula. Her captain returned in the belief that the south coast of New Guinea was joined to the land along which he coasted, and Dutch maps reproduced this error for many years to come.

So Janszoon thought he was sailing along the south coast of New Guinea. Now, Torres also saw Australia, but was "unaware of the fact" (according to most historians) because there are no records of his discovery. However, unlike Janszoon, Torres did know the land he saw was a separate island. He could have known this because he sailed the strait (Torres Strait) that separates New Guinea from Australia. Clark (1962) says "what he noticed was an archipelago of islands without number." [9] So, if Torres saw a new landmass separate from New Guinea which (supposedly) no other explorers had seen before, why didn't he claim this discovery? Why are there no charts of Northern Australia from Torres' expedition?

Well, according to Trickett in his book "Beyond Capricorn" (2007) which follows the thesis of Kenneth McIntyre (1977) and Fitzgerald (1984), Torres already had information about that strait. That's why he did not claim its discovery. Trickett argues that being Portuguese, Torres knew about the early discoveries of Cristóvão de Mendonça, the navigator who "discovered" Australia in 1521 according to the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia. Haiblen (2007) writes the following about Trickett's thesis in Clio Journal of History (Dickinson College):

"...as Torres was Portuguese (though he sailed for the Spanish), he may have had inside knowledge of Mendonca’s alleged voyages. Trickett proposes that Torres already knew of the strait before reaching it, as Torres never laid claim to its discovery. This opinion is supported by the world map of Cornelius Wytfliet (1597) which shows a gap between New Guinea and the Great South Land nine years prior to Torres’ being there." [10]

This evidence links the Mendonça voyage in the Theory of Portuguese discovery with the thesis that Torres discovered Australia, or that in fact, he re-discovered it. Earp wrote in his book "Gold Colonies of Australia":

"Torres [...] discovered the insularity of the northern portion of the country [Australia] by passing though the Strait which now bears his name, and so round Cape York into the Arafura Sea. It would almost appear from his having thus pronounced the country to be an island [...] that Torres had obtained reliable information from some one who had preceded him." [11]

So Torres most likey already knew the strait, as well as Australia itself, that's why he did not claim to have discovered either of them. As for the absence of records of his voyage (almost a century after Mendonça's expedition) again the reason is the secrecy with which Portuguese and Spanish explorations were conducted. This has been explained before in this talk page. In fact, the British only came to know about Torres' expedition 150 years later, when Manila (part of the Spanish East Indies) was briefly occupied by British troops in 1762. (Curiously, this was only 8 years before James Cook arrived in Australia). Earp explains:

"The discovery by Torres has only become known at a comparatively recent date, and the way in which it became known is curious. On the capture of Manila in 1762 by British troops, [a British official] found amongst the Government state papers,a copy of the letter from Torres to the King of Spain, who, with the usual jealousy of European monarchs at this period, had kept the secret of his discoveries from becoming generally known. The discovery of this letter however, places the fact beyond doubt."

To conclude, Portuguese navigator Luis Vaz de Torres crossed the strait that bears his name, and sighted Australia (northern tip of Cape York) which he recognized as a separate island in 1606. Although Dutch explorer Janszoon preceded Torres in sighting (and landing) in Australia, he did not recognise it, believing it was an extension of New Guinea. This fact weakens the thesis that Janszoon "discovered Australia". Also, the above sources suggest that Torres had prior knowledge of both Australia and the Torres Strait. Not only did he "pronounce the country an island" with little evidence, but he did not claim such an important discovery. The possibility of Torres having "inside knowledge" of Mendonça's voyages of 1521 "because he was Portuguese" (as Haiblen suggests) is reinforced by the fact that this was the period of the Iberian Union, when the crowns of Portugal and Spain were united under Philip II and later Philip III of Spain. During this time, all matters relating to the Indies came under the control of the Spanish Council of the Indies, suggesting that all Spanish expeditions from the late 16th century already knew about Mendonça's voyage. In my opinion, all of the above exceedingly justifies a small mention of both Torres and the Portuguese discovery of 1521, which are in fact historically related. JCRB (talk) 00:56, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi JCRB. The point of this page is to discuss improvements to the article, not simply to try to convince others of your POV (strongly held, I can see, by your recent edits to Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia and European Exploration of Australia). I know there is a fine line sometimes, but I think its clear you do not have consensus for adding these matters on WP, partly because they appear to be your own cobbling together of several different writers views, together with several convenient historical shortcuts, and partly because it's not appropriate in the context of the article. Hope I don't sound rude, that's not my intention, but I think its time to be direct. Nickm57 (talk) 05:11, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi Nickm57, thanks for your comments. I don't think you're being fair though. There is a lot of information out there about the prior discoveries of Australia, and I'm only trying to include a reference to this (here and in the articles you have mentioned). I have looked through many sources to get a full picture of the "discovery" issue, not to push a particular point of view. As it stands, the article ignores an important thesis supported by a whole bunch of historians, including Kenneth McIntyre (1977), Fitzgerald (1984) and Peter Trickett (2007) - take a look at Beyond Capricorn. I'm only saying a reference to this would improve the article. JCRB (talk) 10:55, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi JCRB -you seem to be determined to debate with someone what you’ve written, so here’s what I mean by “historical short-cuts” and pushing your own POV:

• “According to some sources, the first European to see the Australian continent was Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós.” Simply plain wrong, a fact finally acknowledged above after a lot of discussion.
• “…being Portuguese, Torres knew about the early discoveries of Cristóvão de Mendonça.” Again, simply wrong. We don’t know anything at all about Torres’ background. He may have been Swedish for all we know (joke). We also know little about de Mendonca, and nothing at all of his possible voyages.
• Snowy Haiblen, Peter Trickett as historians? No. Snowy Haiblen, who is quoted repeatedly above, appears to be a high school student (Dickson College is a Canberra High School, a fact easily checked). Peter Trickett is a retired journalist who specifically says his book is not written as an academic text. G. Butler Earp, also cited as an authority on Australian History, was writing an "Immigrants Guide to Australian goldfields" in 1852. You have selected these writers because they fit your thesis. By the way, McIntyre was also not a historian and never claimed to be. Lawrence Fitzgerald also was not a historian. He was a retired military officer (and being a surveyor, closest to qualified on the topic of map reading).
• C.M.H. “Manning” Clark, the one trained historian cited above, does not dwell on the possibility of a Portuguese or Spanish discovery as claimed. The brief reference appears on page 17 of Volume 1 of his 6 Volume History of Australia. The section about Torres in the strait that now bears his name begins “…It is clear that it (the change by Torres from using the north coast of New Guinea to sail to Manila) had nothing to do with hopes of discovering new land. His (Torres’) mind was on other things. What he noticed was the archipelago of islands without number…”
• There are existing charts of parts of Torres voyage and a well known account by Don Diego de Prado y Tovar. Torres also made a report to the Spanish king. These “secret” reports (according to your thesis) make no reference whatsoever to a land that could be Australia, although they are most insightful about New Guinea.

I actually think its odds on the Spanish voyage under Torres sighted Cape York. But I dont think it warrants mention here for the reasons I mentioned some days ago. Having said my piece again, please note I'm not a contributor to this page. I think you need to accept consensus and move onto something new! Nickm57 (talk) 11:30, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Nickm, I am not determined to debate anything with anyone, just to improve an article that omits historical info supported by various writers, including historians. If you choose to ignore Beyond Capricorn (2007) even if not written "in academic style", and the previous writers who have demonstrated this theory, it will be contrary to the interest of readers. As for the other sources (Dickson College) I stumbled upon them after a quick search. I could have quoted others. Information about the prior discoveries is everywhere. Another source is Ian McKiggan (1977) who wrote "The Portuguese Expedition to Bass Strait in A.D. 1522", and Eric B. Whitehouse [12]. Hellen Walis, the map curator of the British Museum also supported the thesis [13]. The WP article lists others. Regarding your other points:

• The first statement about "Queiros discovering Australia" is not mine. The thesis belongs to early 20th century Archbishop of Sydney Patrick Francis Moran. I do accept however, that this could be wrong, based on the other sources which say his expedition turned back after landing at Espiritu Santo.
• As for Torres being Portuguese, there are Portuguese and British historians who say so. He could have also been Spanish. Still, what's the point? The question is that it was likely he knew about the early Portuguese voyages in Asia (Goa, Malacca, Sumatra, Timor, Moluccas, etc) including that of Mendonça because he was working for the Spanish crown - which from 1580 to 1640 was united with Portugal. As for Mendonça, indeed we know little of his voyages, except that he was in Asia in the 1520's, and died in 1532 as Captain of a Portuguese fortified city in the Persian Gulf. Again, it's not up to us to decide whether this is "true". The question is there are reliable sources which argue both ways.
• Regarding Clark, point taken. I meant that he considered the possibility that Torres saw the northern coast of Australia, not that he discovered it. According to Collingridge and others, he already knew about Australia so he did not need to "discover" it.
• As for Trickett and Fitzgerald not being "historians", fine. Thanks for looking that up. Does that rule them out as "verifiable sources"? Their argument follows that of earlier historians such as George Collingridge which you have not mentioned. As for Kenneth McIntyre the WP article does say he was a historian. Also, Ian McKiggan was a matematician who made a detailed study of the eastern coast of Australia based on the Dauphin map (part of Dieppe Maps) allowing for "mathematical corrections in longitudinal errors in early mapping". See page 130 [14].

Frankly, there is so much evidence linked with the theory of Portuguese discovery that it is hard to ignore: the Dieppe Maps, the Cornelius Wytfliet (1597) map, the Carronade Island cannons, the Mahogany Ship, the ruins in Bittangabee Bay, the words of Portuguese origin in Aboriginal Australian language discovered by Dr. Carl-Georg von Brandenstein etc. Yes, some historians like Pearson and Richardson have criticized all or part of this evidence. The fact remains that it is is supported by a bunch of writers and/or historians, recent and old. The Australian Minister of Science said about Kenneth McIntyre's book: "I found its central argument... persuasive, if not conclusive." In the 1980's the theory even became part of Australian school history reading lists . I think that's all I will say for now. JCRB (talk) 11:46, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be making a full time job for yourself trying to promote this obsession of yours. As has clearly been stated above many times, there is no consenus for this information in this article. It's not that hard to understand. Why do you insist on ranting on about it.--Dmol (talk) 11:56, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Can we archive the discussion in one of those blue boxes? --Merbabu (talk) 12:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

While people keep responding I suspect the discussion will continue. If people stop responding, it will probably be archived forever this time next month. --AussieLegend (talk) 12:15, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Been watching this from the sidelines for a while. My interest in this aspect of Australia's history woud be satisfied with a sentence in the article saying There is some (considerable?) speculation among historians regarding the possibility that earlier European explorers may also have sighted the Australian coastline. Follow it by as many references as people want to add. HiLo48 (talk) 20:16, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Hilo48, thanks for your suggestion. I think "speculation" is an understatement given the sources that back the theory. Perhaps the following is better (blended in the existing paragraph):

"Prior to the arrival of Europeans there were sporadic visits by fishermen from the Indonesian archipelago. Depending on the sources, the first European sighting of the Australian mainland is attributed to Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon or to Iberian explorer Luís Vaz de Torres who both sailed the Torres Strait in 1606 . Although Janszoon preceded Torres by a few months, the Dutchman believed he was in New Guinea. Torres sailed between Cape York and Prince of Wales Island but did not land in Australia. An alternative theory suggests that the Portuguese discovered the continent in the early 16th century.

In either case, the first recorded European landfall was that of Janszoon who sighted the coast of Cape York in early 1606, and made landfall on 26 February at the Pennefather River on the western shore of Cape York, near the modern town of Weipa..." JCRB (talk) 16:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Im sorry JCRB, but still gives too much weight to a theory, and a theory about an incident that did not greatly affect Australia, if at all. It appearing on a very short summary of Australian history would be WP:UNDUE weight. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Outsiders view...For the Canada (FA article) and History of Canada article (currently updating for GA level) we had a similar problem. That is that many wish to add lots of info about the Portuguese Crown claims and its territorial rights in Canada. We came to a compromise in both articles by simply saying "The extent and nature of Portuguese activity on the Canadian mainland during the 16th century remains unclear and controversial". So was thinking the same could be done here...basically a mention is passing.Moxy (talk) 16:28, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposed text

Chipmunkdavis, I don't think that short reference to the alternative theory is giving it "too much weight". It's just one sentence. As for the mention of Torres' voyage, I can't think of a much shorter reference. Maybe you prefer the following:

"Prior to the arrival of Europeans there were sporadic visits by fishermen from the Indonesian archipelago. The first European sighting of the Australian mainland is attributed to both Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon and to Iberian explorer Luís Vaz de Torres depending on the sources. They both sailed the Torres Strait in 1606 . Although Janszoon preceded Torres by a few months, the Dutchman believed he was in New Guinea. An alternative theory suggests that the Portuguese discovered the continent in the early 16th century .

Not taking into account this theory, the first recorded European landfall was that of Janszoon who sighted the coast of Cape York in early 1606, and made landfall on 26 February at the Pennefather River on the western shore of Cape York, near the modern town of Weipa..." JCRB (talk) 14:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely not. You might be content to argue ad nauseam, but you will have proved nothing other than your being a nuisance. Your position has been repeatedly disproved and contradicted. Please take the time to read some of the policy pages referred to you throughout the discussion above. — cj | talk 14:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

CJ, your attitude is out of line. Please respect other editors. The only "nuisance" is your inability to counter arguments with arguments.JCRB (talk) 11:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

JCRB - you are on your own here. And it is clear that you have exhausted the patience of the community. Time to walk away from this one. --Merbabu (talk) 12:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Hardly. I have happily engaged in argument with you, but there comes a point where it ceases to be either constructive or productive. That last point is particularly important, as your persistence on this issue, much like that of a POV Warrior, is a distraction both to yourself and other editors from broader efforts to improve this and other articles in the encyclopaedia. — cj | talk 01:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Seeking consensus to close discussion

I'd like to formally propose that we close and archive this discussion. It's clearly going nowhere and until such time as it's closed, JCRB is going to keep adding content regardless of the fact that, despite weeks of discussion, there has been no consensus to endorse any of his proposals and plenty of opposition to everything he's suggested. Can we please reach some consensus, otherwise the page is going to be 99.999% pointless discussion, instead of just 92%. --AussieLegend (talk) 14:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Close it down. I'm not even going to give any reasons why, or JCRB will start arguing again.--Dmol (talk) 10:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. CLose it down now. It's already passed the point of disruption. --Merbabu (talk) 10:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Pointless POV-pushing by JCRB which is not benefiting the article in anyway. No point on continuing on the road which takes you to a dead end. Bidgee (talk) 11:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Despite your aggressive opposition and rude comments, and for those of you not interested in this discussion, let me summarize the following:

• So far, this is and has been a constructive discussion. The terms "pointless" or "dead" are obviously inappropriate for a discussion which has advanced since it started:

a) Following a revision of the sources, the Queiros discovery was ruled out.

b) A consensus was reached on the Etymology section.

c) Editor HiLo48 suggested a short mention of the Theory citing a similar discussion and solution in the Canada article, which I clearly support.

• The Theory of Portuguese discovery is supported by a good number of Australian and non-Australian writers, from George Collingridge (1895) to Kenneth McIntyre (1977) which the Australian Minister of Science Barry Jones said he found "persuasive, if not conclusive", Eric B. Whitehouse (1978), Ian McKiggan (1977), Helen Wallis (1981), Fitzgerald (1984) and Peter Trickett (2007), specially his book Beyond Capricorn.
• In the 1980's the theory became part of Australian school history reading lists.
• Despite opposition by other authors, this theory can be considered central to Australian history, if not mainstream.

For all of the above I suggest: first a more constructive, open-minded, and specially polite attitude by some editors, and second, a short mention of this in the history section with a link to the main article. JCRB (talk) 13:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

After much reading on this topic, I have come to discover that even if all the claims are true they did not affect Australia historically. SO realy this info should be added to Portuguese Empire and/or Portuguese discoveries because it had no barring on Australia's history or affected its inhabitants. This topic is more about Portuguese mariners and what they have accomplished rather then Australia. That said the "Theory" should be linked at least in the see also section, unless people think its Content forking. The reason the Canada article does mention this topic is because of accounts of Aboriginal Canadians being kidnapped and taken back to Europe, thus had an affect on the native populations and there oral history. Is there any accounts of any contact between the Portuguese and Aborigines of Australia? Because just seeing the land does not mean there was any influence. Moxy (talk) 15:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Moxy (talk) 15:06, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Moxy, thanks for your comments. The Canadian and Australian case are almost identical. Following your argument that an event with no repercussion on a country's history deserves no mention, then the fact that Aboriginal Canadians were taken back to Portugal should not be included in the Canada article either because this had no influence on Canada's history in any way. Still, there is proof of Portuguese contact with Aboriginal Australians. Dr. Carl-Georg von Brandenstein discovered there are words of Portuguese origin in Aboriginal Australian language which suggests ample contact between both cultures . As for simply "seeing the land", the Portuguese explorers didn't simply see it, they chartered its coastline (see the the Dieppe Maps, and the Cornelius Wytfliet map of 1597). In fact, mathematician Ian McKiggan (1977) made a detailed study of one of the Dieppe Maps and proved it represents the eastern coast of Australia taking into account mathematical corrections in longitudinal errors in early mapping (See page 130 [15]). Again, this is supported by Helen Wallis (1981), Fitzgerald (1984) and Peter Trickett (2007) among others. JCRB (talk) 17:19, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Good point on language --This is also y it is mentioned in the Canada article as there is clearly some short of influence on place names in Canada. However its only mentioned in passing because of its lack of Historical significants to the country. I believe that most think its irrelevant if all they did was map the land...was there any attempt at colonization or trade/ and/or any enslavement of the natives? The fact there is an article on the topic here on Wiki (and has not been deleted for fringe work) i think it should be mentioned. All be it in a very passive way. Unlike in Canada i am not seeing any evidance they were at all interested in the land for commercial gains. Thus just simply mapped out the land and moved on!....All this said i still not seeing any over all agreement to add any info....So i think we are out of luck hereMoxy (talk) 17:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Close it down.Nickm57 (talk) 20:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

JCRB, you are missing the point. This section is about closing down a pointless and well beaten discussion, it is not about continuing the discussion here. Please refrain from further commentary here and allow others an imput.--Dmol (talk) 20:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm not considering it pointless, I'm just saying that the consensus seems clear and we should draw a line. hamiltonstone (talk) 21:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Since the consensus seems clear after 10 days, I think it's time to close this down. We don't really need an administrator or non-involved person to do so, so I plan on doing this later today, unless somebody has a reasonable objection or wants to do it themselves. --AussieLegend (talk) 14:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Dmol, how dare you erase my comment on this Talk Page [16]? Do you think you own this article? Your attitude has gone from aggressive and rude to completely inconsiderate. I am free to express my views on this Talk Page like anybody else. What's more, I have contributed a lot of information in this debate. If you don't like the subject of this discussion you are free to move on. Your vote has been noted. This is my response to Moxy, which Dmol deleted:

Moxy, thanks again for your feedback. Although it is not really the point, let me say that 17th century expeditions did not sail for months along a coast just to map it and move on. The Portuguese were obviously interested in Australia, but their colonies in the Moluccas, Malacca and Goa were much more lucrative (spices, silk and other goods). Australia did not have such resources and were therefore not settled. However, that is not the point. The point is who discovered Australia, and the answer to that is clearly the Potuguese. Although there is obviously no consensus, I think this information deserves a mention, even if a short one. We'll need to go to dispute resolution or some other solution. JCRB (talk) 14:01, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I obviously disagree with closing down this discussion. JCRB (talk) 13:25, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Australia has strong international teams in cricket..."

Is this still the case? Given that the men's team is no longer ranked in the top four of the ten "test cricket nations". In addition I note that the criteria used for suggesting that Australia is "strong" at the sport relates to the one day form of the game which many expert commentators is now suggesting is becoming moribund. Silent Billy (talk) 22:16, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, no longer in the top four, but they're still in the top ten, out of the 200 or so countries in the world. Sure, most don't play international cricket, but it's still a pretty strong position. I would draw a parallel with a game like baseball. Beyond the top three or four countries, baseball would be a minor sport, but we would probably still say that the fifth best team is a strong one (out of 200). HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Also, consider that wikipedia is meant to take a long-term view. Australia has for many decades been strong interenational side. A recent fall in form is just that - recent. Perhaps the article wording could be tweaked to something like "long been a strong international team" or similiar. see WP:RECENT. --Merbabu (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm with Merbabu, per RECENT, with a reference that says that Aust has historically been a strong cricket team. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

You guys waste too much of your lunch money YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Formal name of the Monarch. The present Elizabeth is Australia's first Elizabeth, not second.

In the infobox we are told that the Monarch is Elizabeth II. Is this name technically correct? Elizabeth I was never monarch of Australia. The present one is the first Elizabeth who has been monarch of Australia, not the second. HiLo48 (talk) 17:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The present one isn't Elizabeth I one though, she's Elizabeth II, regardless of the fact that she's the first Elizabeth to be our queen. This discussion has been had somewhere but I can't remember where I saw it. I do remember though that Elizabeth II was correct. --AussieLegend (talk) 17:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It would be interesting to see that discussion. It's been during my lifetime that she became formally known as Queen of Australia. I'm not pushing a POV here. I'm sure there would be a formal protocol or something. But it just sort of makes sense to me that that addition of Australia to her title would have made her Queen Elizabeth I of Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 20:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Maybe an initial step would be finding a credible external reference saying that the current Queen is called "Queen Elizabeth I of Australia". Format (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not pushing for a change if the title is right. Just wondering why it is the way that it is. I've done some research and reached List of titles and honours of Queen Elizabeth II. It has a section called Scottish controversy which says "...only in Scotland did the title Elizabeth II cause controversy as there had never been an Elizabeth I in Scotland." A legal case was made, but "lost on the grounds that the pursuers had not title to sue the Crown". All very interesting. I learnt a lot on my way to that point. It's all very complicated. HiLo48 (talk) 07:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Ozzie

I see that this article once included the Ozzie demonym and that someone decided to remove it. Apparently Australians think that only terms used extensively in Australia are appropriate for an article that is used around the world. In the UK and Ireland the Ozzie demonym is used, often with reference to the "land of Oz" as an exoticisation of the locale and of people who travel there (particularly those who go to play sports there). It looks like this was discussed some time back and the consensus was to keep both spellings, Aussie and Ozzie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Australia/Archive_15#Ozzie_vs_Aussie

Djozgur (talk) 01:26, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

The theory of Portuguese discovery and Torres...

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

For the sake of clarity I've created a new section and included some of the discussion from above, that had moved into this topic. Hope you dont mind, JCRBNickm57 (talk) 23:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Enough said for the Etymology of "Australia". Now about the possible "first sighting by Queiros" (second point raised bove) and the Theory of Portuguese Discovery of Australia. Shouldn't these be mentioned in the History section? JCRB (talk) 14:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Surely you mean to suggest "first sighting by Torres"? Quiros was on his way back to Mexico when Torres was navigating the strait that now bears his name. Quiros could not be said to still be in command of an expedition that he had abandoned! My view is Torres' success was remarkable, and I think Brett Hilder has established a high likelyhood that Torres did see the tip of what is now Cape York. However, its clear from existing records that (if they did see Cape York) the Spanish did not recognise the land they saw for what it was. Thus, the sighting, if it occurred, contributed nothing to European knowledge of the world. This is also Mike Pearson's thinking about the contentious Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia- if it happened, it contributed nothing to "expand European knowledge of Australia, the portrayal of Jave La Grande having no greater status that any other conjectural portrayal of Terra Australis." For that reason, I feel its not appropriate to mention either in the short summary on this page. Both Torres, Quiros and "the Theory..." all have detailed pages of their own! Nickm57 (talk) 22:10, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Nickm57, yes, I meant the "first sighting by Torres" who was part of Queiros' original expedition. Indeed, there are different sources which prove this first sighting. You mentioned Brett Hilder and his "high likelyhood" that this ocurred. There are other sources. In The First Discovery of Australia and New Guinea (1906) [17] the author, George Collingridge says:

"Sailing along the shores of the islands to the north of Australia, between Cape York and Prince of Wales Island, Torres regained the coast of New Guinea [...] He had discovered Australia without being aware of the fact, and had completed the Spanish circumnavigation of New Guinea."

See this map for the full route of Torres [18]. In a timeline at the end of the book, Collingridge also writes: "1606. Torres sails towards Australia from the New Hebrides, passes through the straits that bear his name, and discovers Australia, without, apparently, being aware of the fact." So according to this historian Torres was the first European to sight Australia (and to sail its waters) although he did not make landfall.

Regarding the prior discovery of Australia by the Portuguese, there are also a number of sources which prove this, largely based on the Dieppe maps, specially this one [19] and this one [20] which show the Australian landmass south of Java and Sumatra, but farther to the east. In the same work Collingridge explains that these maps were purposely distorted by the Portuguese so that Australia appeared in the hemisphere assigned to Portugal by Pope Alexander (in the Treaty of Tordesillas). Collingridge provides an interesting illustration comparing the real and the fictitious location of Australia here [21]. He also explains:

"the Portuguese, who were the first to make discoveries in these seas, must have been perfectly aware that the coasts they had charted lay more to the east, and if they dragged them out of position and placed them under Java as shown in these maps, it was in order to secure to themselves the lion's share, for their line of demarcation, as fixed by Pope Alexander".

So according to the above information, both Torres (in 1606) and the Portuguese (in the 16th century) arrived in Australia before the Dutch. Whether they made this knowledge available to other Europeans or not, is not really the point. Many discoveries were kept secret during the 16th and 17th centuries so that competing nations did not threaten trade or power in the newly discovered regions. Regarding the fictitious position of Australia in the above-mentioned map, this is what Spanish pilot Juan Gaetan said about the Portuguese charts:

"I saw and knew all their charts. They were all cunningly falsified, with longitudes and latitudes distorted, and land-features drawn in at places and stretched out at others to suit their purposes, etc., etc., and when they found out that I understood their little pranks they made strenuous efforts to get me to enlist in their service, and made me advantageous offers, which, however, I scorned to accept"' [22]

So clearly it was customary to protect valuable information like maps and trade routes by keeping them secret and even falsifying documents. With this in mind, it seems highly probably that the Portuguese arrived Australia in the 16th century. Therefore, the article should mention both of these prior discoveries. JCRB (talk) 22:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Scope of the history section in this article.

A WP article on Australia, in its short history summary section, should not need to include reference to unsubstantiated or speculative matters, and this includes suggestions of voyages by the Portuguese. The full History of Australia and European exploration of Australia articles, linked from this page, do make passing mention of this theory. The same applies to speculation about what Torres may have seen, even though his voyage was documented.

My benchmark for whether it’s appropriate to mention this theory in this article is still based on Mike Pearson’s comment. Whether such sightings occurred or not, they went unrecorded and were not exploited or celebrated. They contributed nothing to European knowledge of Australia, and therefore are at best, curiosities of our own history.

Many reading this discussion will have contributed to articles on European exploration of Australia and read Collingridge’s works of the late 19th century. May I recommend to interested Wikipedians some of the more recent writers like Bill Richardson, Gayle K. Brunelle and Robert King. I think this is where informed contemporary thinking is, on the Dieppe maps and any possible connection to Australia. Nickm57 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

By the way JCRB – you suggest "many other' discoveries of the 16th and 17th century were kept secret. I would have more sympathy for your argument to include this topic if I could think of any comparable secret discoveries! On the contrary, I suggest most "new world" geographical discoveries were blabbed about in 16th and 17th century Europe very quickly! Nickm57 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Generally unknown discoveries: European maritime expeditions from the Age of Exploration up to the 18th century were usually kept secret to prevent rival powers from gaining access to profitable trade, or from establishing bases that would threaten their colonies. This meant either locking away the documents that recorded the discovery, or distorting the charts as I explained above. Discussing 18th century Spanish travel literature, Professor Garcia Sanchez from Eastern Washington University writes:

"Although the production of [Spanish] narrative was very abundant, due to the secretiveness the Borbonic government kept on those explorations, they didn’t have a lot of popular acknowledgement like similar narratives in the rest of Europe".

There are territories which the Portuguese or the Spanish discovered in the 16th century, but due to the policy of discretion this has not been acknowledged sufficiently. In territories where a different European power eventually took over, this is specially the case. For example, according to this theory Hawaii was probably discovered by the Spanish in 1555. See also this article[23]. The discovery of the Spice Islands or Moluccas was also kept secret by the Portuguese for a few decades until the unification of Spain and Portugal under the Iberian Union. The route of the Manila Galleons itself was kept rigorously secret for almost its full duration (1565-1815) allowing the Viceroyalty of New Spain and the Casa de Contratacion to operate a transpacific monopoly between the Philippines and the Americas undisturbed for at least one century. So not all discoveries were disclosed. In fact, documents of exploration such as logbooks and maps were sometimes locked away for a very long time. According to this book (quoting the WP article) "the Hawaiian islands were not known to have any valuable resources, so the Spanish would have not made an effort to settle them". The same thing happened to the Mariana Islands (specially Guam) discovered by Magellan in 1521, and visited by various explorers afterwards (among them Legazpi and Urdaneta in 1565) but not settled until 1668.

Scope of the history section: As for the scope of the history section, I think we need to be more open-minded towards information that we are not used to. Just because the Portuguese discovery of Australia is not mainstream in English-language literature, does not mean it is inaccurate. Just because the Torres discovery is not "generally accepted" nowadays does not mean it should be ruled out. Let the reader decide that for himself. A short mention of these two possible discoveries and a link does not in any way harm the article. What's more, it contributes to it. JCRB (talk) 18:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I've said my bit for now, I'm sure the many other contributors to this page have an opinion too.Nickm57 (talk) 23:37, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes and I agree. JCRB, there is simply no scope for discussion of these obscure matters in this summary article, as to do so would run up against Wikipedia's policies about due and undue weight. — cj | talk 06:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. I think I've produced sufficient sources to justify at least a small reference to the prior discoveries. These are not "obscure matters" but verifiable information which is relevant to the article. JCRB (talk) 16:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

It's quite irrelevant, because whether it happened of not, it had no bearing on the creation of the Australia we know today, and has had no effect on Australia's development. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:31, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Still, it's part of Australia's history. JCRB (talk) 17:02, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

That may be so, but it is in no way of such importance that it deserves a spot in the summary of Australia's history, a short summary at that. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I've been watching these discussions with interest and while I didn't really want to get involved I'm forced to because that dead horse is really starting to stink. I have to agree with the arguments presented by others, there's really no place for mention of this in this article. --AussieLegend (talk) 03:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Totally agree with above. There has not been any consensus to add the info, despite pages of discussion. Dead horse.--Dmol (talk) 07:34, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't say a constructive discussion "stinks". All of this is useful information about Australia's early history. As for the "dead horse"(?) the long discussion was about Etymology. That's over. This discussion is about prior discoveries. Please don't try to kill the discussion just because you don't agree. JCRB (talk) 21:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid you've missed what we're getting at, which is that the discussion was pretty much ended so long ago that, like most dead things that remain unburied, it's going nowhere and needs to be buried as soon as possible. The discussion has been going on for seven weeks now, we've just changed tack slightly, and you're the only one who doesn't seem to get that there's no place for any of this information in this article. The discussion is no longer constructive, and hasn't been for some time. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:46, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Additional Sources

To move forward, I will produce a number of additional sources to support that both the Portuguese and the Torres discoveries deserve a mention. First, let me say that when reading the contradicting versions of the discovery of Australia, it was surprising to see that most sources agreed that Willem Janszoon had arrived before Torres. The Dutch explorer was there in March 1606, whereas Torres arrived in August or September 1606. If Torres had sighted Australia after the Dutch, why do historians like Earp (1852) or Collingridge (1895) claim that Torres discovered it? Or why do many others like Clark (1962), Rients (1969) and Ziegler (1970) dwell on this possibility? Why the debate if Janszoon clearly preceded Torres?

I looked into this and found out that Janszoon actually ignored he was in Australia. Janszoon thought he was in a southern extension of New Guinea [24]. That's why authors such as Collingridge claim that Torres discovered the continent, not Janszoon. The Dutch navigator thought he was sailing along the south of New Guinea, not in a new island. This fact would disqualify him as the "first discoverer". This is an extract from the Project Gutemberg Australia article cited above:

"Willem Janszoon, was actually in Torres Strait in March 1606, a few weeks before Torres sailed through it. But provisions ran short, and nine of the crew were murdered by natives [...] so that the Duyfken did not penetrate beyond Cape Keer-weer on the west side of the Cape York Peninsula. Her captain returned in the belief that the south coast of New Guinea was joined to the land along which he coasted, and Dutch maps reproduced this error for many years to come.

So Janszoon thought he was sailing along the south coast of New Guinea. Now, Torres also saw Australia, but was "unaware of the fact" (according to most historians) because there are no records of his discovery. However, unlike Janszoon, Torres did know the land he saw was a separate island. He could have known this because he sailed the strait (Torres Strait) that separates New Guinea from Australia. Clark (1962) says "what he noticed was an archipelago of islands without number." [25] So, if Torres saw a new landmass separate from New Guinea which (supposedly) no other explorers had seen before, why didn't he claim this discovery? Why are there no charts of Northern Australia from Torres' expedition?

Well, according to Trickett in his book "Beyond Capricorn" (2007) which follows the thesis of Kenneth McIntyre (1977) and Fitzgerald (1984), Torres already had information about that strait. That's why he did not claim its discovery. Trickett argues that being Portuguese, Torres knew about the early discoveries of Cristóvão de Mendonça, the navigator who "discovered" Australia in 1521 according to the Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia. Haiblen (2007) writes the following about Trickett's thesis in Clio Journal of History (Dickinson College):

"...as Torres was Portuguese (though he sailed for the Spanish), he may have had inside knowledge of Mendonca’s alleged voyages. Trickett proposes that Torres already knew of the strait before reaching it, as Torres never laid claim to its discovery. This opinion is supported by the world map of Cornelius Wytfliet (1597) which shows a gap between New Guinea and the Great South Land nine years prior to Torres’ being there." [26]

This evidence links the Mendonça voyage in the Theory of Portuguese discovery with the thesis that Torres discovered Australia, or that in fact, he re-discovered it. Earp wrote in his book "Gold Colonies of Australia":

"Torres [...] discovered the insularity of the northern portion of the country [Australia] by passing though the Strait which now bears his name, and so round Cape York into the Arafura Sea. It would almost appear from his having thus pronounced the country to be an island [...] that Torres had obtained reliable information from some one who had preceded him." [27]

So Torres most likey already knew the strait, as well as Australia itself, that's why he did not claim to have discovered either of them. As for the absence of records of his voyage (almost a century after Mendonça's expedition) again the reason is the secrecy with which Portuguese and Spanish explorations were conducted. This has been explained before in this talk page. In fact, the British only came to know about Torres' expedition 150 years later, when Manila (part of the Spanish East Indies) was briefly occupied by British troops in 1762. (Curiously, this was only 8 years before James Cook arrived in Australia). Earp explains:

"The discovery by Torres has only become known at a comparatively recent date, and the way in which it became known is curious. On the capture of Manila in 1762 by British troops, [a British official] found amongst the Government state papers,a copy of the letter from Torres to the King of Spain, who, with the usual jealousy of European monarchs at this period, had kept the secret of his discoveries from becoming generally known. The discovery of this letter however, places the fact beyond doubt."

To conclude, Portuguese navigator Luis Vaz de Torres crossed the strait that bears his name, and sighted Australia (northern tip of Cape York) which he recognized as a separate island in 1606. Although Dutch explorer Janszoon preceded Torres in sighting (and landing) in Australia, he did not recognise it, believing it was an extension of New Guinea. This fact weakens the thesis that Janszoon "discovered Australia". Also, the above sources suggest that Torres had prior knowledge of both Australia and the Torres Strait. Not only did he "pronounce the country an island" with little evidence, but he did not claim such an important discovery. The possibility of Torres having "inside knowledge" of Mendonça's voyages of 1521 "because he was Portuguese" (as Haiblen suggests) is reinforced by the fact that this was the period of the Iberian Union, when the crowns of Portugal and Spain were united under Philip II and later Philip III of Spain. During this time, all matters relating to the Indies came under the control of the Spanish Council of the Indies, suggesting that all Spanish expeditions from the late 16th century already knew about Mendonça's voyage. In my opinion, all of the above exceedingly justifies a small mention of both Torres and the Portuguese discovery of 1521, which are in fact historically related. JCRB (talk) 00:56, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi JCRB. The point of this page is to discuss improvements to the article, not simply to try to convince others of your POV (strongly held, I can see, by your recent edits to Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia and European Exploration of Australia). I know there is a fine line sometimes, but I think its clear you do not have consensus for adding these matters on WP, partly because they appear to be your own cobbling together of several different writers views, together with several convenient historical shortcuts, and partly because it's not appropriate in the context of the article. Hope I don't sound rude, that's not my intention, but I think its time to be direct. Nickm57 (talk) 05:11, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi Nickm57, thanks for your comments. I don't think you're being fair though. There is a lot of information out there about the prior discoveries of Australia, and I'm only trying to include a reference to this (here and in the articles you have mentioned). I have looked through many sources to get a full picture of the "discovery" issue, not to push a particular point of view. As it stands, the article ignores an important thesis supported by a whole bunch of historians, including Kenneth McIntyre (1977), Fitzgerald (1984) and Peter Trickett (2007) - take a look at Beyond Capricorn. I'm only saying a reference to this would improve the article. JCRB (talk) 10:55, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Hi JCRB -you seem to be determined to debate with someone what you’ve written, so here’s what I mean by “historical short-cuts” and pushing your own POV:

• “According to some sources, the first European to see the Australian continent was Portuguese explorer Pedro Fernandes de Queirós.” Simply plain wrong, a fact finally acknowledged above after a lot of discussion.
• “…being Portuguese, Torres knew about the early discoveries of Cristóvão de Mendonça.” Again, simply wrong. We don’t know anything at all about Torres’ background. He may have been Swedish for all we know (joke). We also know little about de Mendonca, and nothing at all of his possible voyages.
• Snowy Haiblen, Peter Trickett as historians? No. Snowy Haiblen, who is quoted repeatedly above, appears to be a high school student (Dickson College is a Canberra High School, a fact easily checked). Peter Trickett is a retired journalist who specifically says his book is not written as an academic text. G. Butler Earp, also cited as an authority on Australian History, was writing an "Immigrants Guide to Australian goldfields" in 1852. You have selected these writers because they fit your thesis. By the way, McIntyre was also not a historian and never claimed to be. Lawrence Fitzgerald also was not a historian. He was a retired military officer (and being a surveyor, closest to qualified on the topic of map reading).
• C.M.H. “Manning” Clark, the one trained historian cited above, does not dwell on the possibility of a Portuguese or Spanish discovery as claimed. The brief reference appears on page 17 of Volume 1 of his 6 Volume History of Australia. The section about Torres in the strait that now bears his name begins “…It is clear that it (the change by Torres from using the north coast of New Guinea to sail to Manila) had nothing to do with hopes of discovering new land. His (Torres’) mind was on other things. What he noticed was the archipelago of islands without number…”
• There are existing charts of parts of Torres voyage and a well known account by Don Diego de Prado y Tovar. Torres also made a report to the Spanish king. These “secret” reports (according to your thesis) make no reference whatsoever to a land that could be Australia, although they are most insightful about New Guinea.

I actually think its odds on the Spanish voyage under Torres sighted Cape York. But I dont think it warrants mention here for the reasons I mentioned some days ago. Having said my piece again, please note I'm not a contributor to this page. I think you need to accept consensus and move onto something new! Nickm57 (talk) 11:30, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Nickm, I am not determined to debate anything with anyone, just to improve an article that omits historical info supported by various writers, including historians. If you choose to ignore Beyond Capricorn (2007) even if not written "in academic style", and the previous writers who have demonstrated this theory, it will be contrary to the interest of readers. As for the other sources (Dickson College) I stumbled upon them after a quick search. I could have quoted others. Information about the prior discoveries is everywhere. Another source is Ian McKiggan (1977) who wrote "The Portuguese Expedition to Bass Strait in A.D. 1522", and Eric B. Whitehouse [28]. Hellen Walis, the map curator of the British Museum also supported the thesis [29]. The WP article lists others. Regarding your other points:

• The first statement about "Queiros discovering Australia" is not mine. The thesis belongs to early 20th century Archbishop of Sydney Patrick Francis Moran. I do accept however, that this could be wrong, based on the other sources which say his expedition turned back after landing at Espiritu Santo.
• As for Torres being Portuguese, there are Portuguese and British historians who say so. He could have also been Spanish. Still, what's the point? The question is that it was likely he knew about the early Portuguese voyages in Asia (Goa, Malacca, Sumatra, Timor, Moluccas, etc) including that of Mendonça because he was working for the Spanish crown - which from 1580 to 1640 was united with Portugal. As for Mendonça, indeed we know little of his voyages, except that he was in Asia in the 1520's, and died in 1532 as Captain of a Portuguese fortified city in the Persian Gulf. Again, it's not up to us to decide whether this is "true". The question is there are reliable sources which argue both ways.
• Regarding Clark, point taken. I meant that he considered the possibility that Torres saw the northern coast of Australia, not that he discovered it. According to Collingridge and others, he already knew about Australia so he did not need to "discover" it.
• As for Trickett and Fitzgerald not being "historians", fine. Thanks for looking that up. Does that rule them out as "verifiable sources"? Their argument follows that of earlier historians such as George Collingridge which you have not mentioned. As for Kenneth McIntyre the WP article does say he was a historian. Also, Ian McKiggan was a matematician who made a detailed study of the eastern coast of Australia based on the Dauphin map (part of Dieppe Maps) allowing for "mathematical corrections in longitudinal errors in early mapping". See page 130 [30].

Frankly, there is so much evidence linked with the theory of Portuguese discovery that it is hard to ignore: the Dieppe Maps, the Cornelius Wytfliet (1597) map, the Carronade Island cannons, the Mahogany Ship, the ruins in Bittangabee Bay, the words of Portuguese origin in Aboriginal Australian language discovered by Dr. Carl-Georg von Brandenstein etc. Yes, some historians like Pearson and Richardson have criticized all or part of this evidence. The fact remains that it is is supported by a bunch of writers and/or historians, recent and old. The Australian Minister of Science said about Kenneth McIntyre's book: "I found its central argument... persuasive, if not conclusive." In the 1980's the theory even became part of Australian school history reading lists . I think that's all I will say for now. JCRB (talk) 11:46, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be making a full time job for yourself trying to promote this obsession of yours. As has clearly been stated above many times, there is no consenus for this information in this article. It's not that hard to understand. Why do you insist on ranting on about it.--Dmol (talk) 11:56, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Can we archive the discussion in one of those blue boxes? --Merbabu (talk) 12:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

While people keep responding I suspect the discussion will continue. If people stop responding, it will probably be archived forever this time next month. --AussieLegend (talk) 12:15, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Been watching this from the sidelines for a while. My interest in this aspect of Australia's history woud be satisfied with a sentence in the article saying There is some (considerable?) speculation among historians regarding the possibility that earlier European explorers may also have sighted the Australian coastline. Follow it by as many references as people want to add. HiLo48 (talk) 20:16, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Hilo48, thanks for your suggestion. I think "speculation" is an understatement given the sources that back the theory. Perhaps the following is better (blended in the existing paragraph):

"Prior to the arrival of Europeans there were sporadic visits by fishermen from the Indonesian archipelago. Depending on the sources, the first European sighting of the Australian mainland is attributed to Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon or to Iberian explorer Luís Vaz de Torres who both sailed the Torres Strait in 1606 . Although Janszoon preceded Torres by a few months, the Dutchman believed he was in New Guinea. Torres sailed between Cape York and Prince of Wales Island but did not land in Australia. An alternative theory suggests that the Portuguese discovered the continent in the early 16th century.

In either case, the first recorded European landfall was that of Janszoon who sighted the coast of Cape York in early 1606, and made landfall on 26 February at the Pennefather River on the western shore of Cape York, near the modern town of Weipa..." JCRB (talk) 16:02, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Im sorry JCRB, but still gives too much weight to a theory, and a theory about an incident that did not greatly affect Australia, if at all. It appearing on a very short summary of Australian history would be WP:UNDUE weight. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:20, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Outsiders view...For the Canada (FA article) and History of Canada article (currently updating for GA level) we had a similar problem. That is that many wish to add lots of info about the Portuguese Crown claims and its territorial rights in Canada. We came to a compromise in both articles by simply saying "The extent and nature of Portuguese activity on the Canadian mainland during the 16th century remains unclear and controversial". So was thinking the same could be done here...basically a mention is passing.Moxy (talk) 16:28, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Proposed text

Chipmunkdavis, I don't think that short reference to the alternative theory is giving it "too much weight". It's just one sentence. As for the mention of Torres' voyage, I can't think of a much shorter reference. Maybe you prefer the following:

"Prior to the arrival of Europeans there were sporadic visits by fishermen from the Indonesian archipelago. The first European sighting of the Australian mainland is attributed to both Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon and to Iberian explorer Luís Vaz de Torres depending on the sources. They both sailed the Torres Strait in 1606 . Although Janszoon preceded Torres by a few months, the Dutchman believed he was in New Guinea. An alternative theory suggests that the Portuguese discovered the continent in the early 16th century .

Not taking into account this theory, the first recorded European landfall was that of Janszoon who sighted the coast of Cape York in early 1606, and made landfall on 26 February at the Pennefather River on the western shore of Cape York, near the modern town of Weipa..." JCRB (talk) 14:00, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely not. You might be content to argue ad nauseam, but you will have proved nothing other than your being a nuisance. Your position has been repeatedly disproved and contradicted. Please take the time to read some of the policy pages referred to you throughout the discussion above. — cj | talk 14:40, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

CJ, your attitude is out of line. Please respect other editors. The only "nuisance" is your inability to counter arguments with arguments.JCRB (talk) 11:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

JCRB - you are on your own here. And it is clear that you have exhausted the patience of the community. Time to walk away from this one. --Merbabu (talk) 12:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Hardly. I have happily engaged in argument with you, but there comes a point where it ceases to be either constructive or productive. That last point is particularly important, as your persistence on this issue, much like that of a POV Warrior, is a distraction both to yourself and other editors from broader efforts to improve this and other articles in the encyclopaedia. — cj | talk 01:42, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Seeking consensus to close discussion

I'd like to formally propose that we close and archive this discussion. It's clearly going nowhere and until such time as it's closed, JCRB is going to keep adding content regardless of the fact that, despite weeks of discussion, there has been no consensus to endorse any of his proposals and plenty of opposition to everything he's suggested. Can we please reach some consensus, otherwise the page is going to be 99.999% pointless discussion, instead of just 92%. --AussieLegend (talk) 14:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Close it down. I'm not even going to give any reasons why, or JCRB will start arguing again.--Dmol (talk) 10:10, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. CLose it down now. It's already passed the point of disruption. --Merbabu (talk) 10:17, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Pointless POV-pushing by JCRB which is not benefiting the article in anyway. No point on continuing on the road which takes you to a dead end. Bidgee (talk) 11:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Despite your aggressive opposition and rude comments, and for those of you not interested in this discussion, let me summarize the following:

• So far, this is and has been a constructive discussion. The terms "pointless" or "dead" are obviously inappropriate for a discussion which has advanced since it started:

a) Following a revision of the sources, the Queiros discovery was ruled out.

b) A consensus was reached on the Etymology section.

c) Editor HiLo48 suggested a short mention of the Theory citing a similar discussion and solution in the Canada article, which I clearly support.

• The Theory of Portuguese discovery is supported by a good number of Australian and non-Australian writers, from George Collingridge (1895) to Kenneth McIntyre (1977) which the Australian Minister of Science Barry Jones said he found "persuasive, if not conclusive", Eric B. Whitehouse (1978), Ian McKiggan (1977), Helen Wallis (1981), Fitzgerald (1984) and Peter Trickett (2007), specially his book Beyond Capricorn.
• In the 1980's the theory became part of Australian school history reading lists.
• Despite opposition by other authors, this theory can be considered central to Australian history, if not mainstream.

For all of the above I suggest: first a more constructive, open-minded, and specially polite attitude by some editors, and second, a short mention of this in the history section with a link to the main article. JCRB (talk) 13:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

After much reading on this topic, I have come to discover that even if all the claims are true they did not affect Australia historically. SO realy this info should be added to Portuguese Empire and/or Portuguese discoveries because it had no barring on Australia's history or affected its inhabitants. This topic is more about Portuguese mariners and what they have accomplished rather then Australia. That said the "Theory" should be linked at least in the see also section, unless people think its Content forking. The reason the Canada article does mention this topic is because of accounts of Aboriginal Canadians being kidnapped and taken back to Europe, thus had an affect on the native populations and there oral history. Is there any accounts of any contact between the Portuguese and Aborigines of Australia? Because just seeing the land does not mean there was any influence. Moxy (talk) 15:16, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Moxy (talk) 15:06, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Moxy, thanks for your comments. The Canadian and Australian case are almost identical. Following your argument that an event with no repercussion on a country's history deserves no mention, then the fact that Aboriginal Canadians were taken back to Portugal should not be included in the Canada article either because this had no influence on Canada's history in any way. Still, there is proof of Portuguese contact with Aboriginal Australians. Dr. Carl-Georg von Brandenstein discovered there are words of Portuguese origin in Aboriginal Australian language which suggests ample contact between both cultures . As for simply "seeing the land", the Portuguese explorers didn't simply see it, they chartered its coastline (see the the Dieppe Maps, and the Cornelius Wytfliet map of 1597). In fact, mathematician Ian McKiggan (1977) made a detailed study of one of the Dieppe Maps and proved it represents the eastern coast of Australia taking into account mathematical corrections in longitudinal errors in early mapping (See page 130 [31]). Again, this is supported by Helen Wallis (1981), Fitzgerald (1984) and Peter Trickett (2007) among others. JCRB (talk) 17:19, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Good point on language --This is also y it is mentioned in the Canada article as there is clearly some short of influence on place names in Canada. However its only mentioned in passing because of its lack of Historical significants to the country. I believe that most think its irrelevant if all they did was map the land...was there any attempt at colonization or trade/ and/or any enslavement of the natives? The fact there is an article on the topic here on Wiki (and has not been deleted for fringe work) i think it should be mentioned. All be it in a very passive way. Unlike in Canada i am not seeing any evidance they were at all interested in the land for commercial gains. Thus just simply mapped out the land and moved on!....All this said i still not seeing any over all agreement to add any info....So i think we are out of luck hereMoxy (talk) 17:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Close it down.Nickm57 (talk) 20:17, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

JCRB, you are missing the point. This section is about closing down a pointless and well beaten discussion, it is not about continuing the discussion here. Please refrain from further commentary here and allow others an imput.--Dmol (talk) 20:54, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm not considering it pointless, I'm just saying that the consensus seems clear and we should draw a line. hamiltonstone (talk) 21:37, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Since the consensus seems clear after 10 days, I think it's time to close this down. We don't really need an administrator or non-involved person to do so, so I plan on doing this later today, unless somebody has a reasonable objection or wants to do it themselves. --AussieLegend (talk) 14:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Dmol, how dare you erase my comment on this Talk Page [32]? Do you think you own this article? Your attitude has gone from aggressive and rude to completely inconsiderate. I am free to express my views on this Talk Page like anybody else. What's more, I have contributed a lot of information in this debate. If you don't like the subject of this discussion you are free to move on. Your vote has been noted. This is my response to Moxy, which Dmol deleted:

Moxy, thanks again for your feedback. Although it is not really the point, let me say that 17th century expeditions did not sail for months along a coast just to map it and move on. The Portuguese were obviously interested in Australia, but their colonies in the Moluccas, Malacca and Goa were much more lucrative (spices, silk and other goods). Australia did not have such resources and were therefore not settled. However, that is not the point. The point is who discovered Australia, and the answer to that is clearly the Potuguese. Although there is obviously no consensus, I think this information deserves a mention, even if a short one. We'll need to go to dispute resolution or some other solution. JCRB (talk) 14:01, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

I obviously disagree with closing down this discussion. JCRB (talk) 13:25, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Australia has strong international teams in cricket..."

Is this still the case? Given that the men's team is no longer ranked in the top four of the ten "test cricket nations". In addition I note that the criteria used for suggesting that Australia is "strong" at the sport relates to the one day form of the game which many expert commentators is now suggesting is becoming moribund. Silent Billy (talk) 22:16, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, no longer in the top four, but they're still in the top ten, out of the 200 or so countries in the world. Sure, most don't play international cricket, but it's still a pretty strong position. I would draw a parallel with a game like baseball. Beyond the top three or four countries, baseball would be a minor sport, but we would probably still say that the fifth best team is a strong one (out of 200). HiLo48 (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Also, consider that wikipedia is meant to take a long-term view. Australia has for many decades been strong interenational side. A recent fall in form is just that - recent. Perhaps the article wording could be tweaked to something like "long been a strong international team" or similiar. see WP:RECENT. --Merbabu (talk) 02:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm with Merbabu, per RECENT, with a reference that says that Aust has historically been a strong cricket team. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

You guys waste too much of your lunch money YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 04:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Formal name of the Monarch. The present Elizabeth is Australia's first Elizabeth, not second.

In the infobox we are told that the Monarch is Elizabeth II. Is this name technically correct? Elizabeth I was never monarch of Australia. The present one is the first Elizabeth who has been monarch of Australia, not the second. HiLo48 (talk) 17:32, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The present one isn't Elizabeth I one though, she's Elizabeth II, regardless of the fact that she's the first Elizabeth to be our queen. This discussion has been had somewhere but I can't remember where I saw it. I do remember though that Elizabeth II was correct. --AussieLegend (talk) 17:53, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It would be interesting to see that discussion. It's been during my lifetime that she became formally known as Queen of Australia. I'm not pushing a POV here. I'm sure there would be a formal protocol or something. But it just sort of makes sense to me that that addition of Australia to her title would have made her Queen Elizabeth I of Australia. HiLo48 (talk) 20:50, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Maybe an initial step would be finding a credible external reference saying that the current Queen is called "Queen Elizabeth I of Australia". Format (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not pushing for a change if the title is right. Just wondering why it is the way that it is. I've done some research and reached List of titles and honours of Queen Elizabeth II. It has a section called Scottish controversy which says "...only in Scotland did the title Elizabeth II cause controversy as there had never been an Elizabeth I in Scotland." A legal case was made, but "lost on the grounds that the pursuers had not title to sue the Crown". All very interesting. I learnt a lot on my way to that point. It's all very complicated. HiLo48 (talk) 07:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Ozzie

I see that this article once included the Ozzie demonym and that someone decided to remove it. Apparently Australians think that only terms used extensively in Australia are appropriate for an article that is used around the world. In the UK and Ireland the Ozzie demonym is used, often with reference to the "land of Oz" as an exoticisation of the locale and of people who travel there (particularly those who go to play sports there). It looks like this was discussed some time back and the consensus was to keep both spellings, Aussie and Ozzie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Australia/Archive_15#Ozzie_vs_Aussie

Djozgur (talk) 01:26, 10 November 2010 (UTC)