Talk:Fox News

Use of Media Matters

As Media Matters has declared a campaign of "guerilla warfare and sabotage" against Fox, I don't think they can fairly be used as a source in the article. <a href=http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51949.html></a>. Or if they are used, their POV should be documented more thoroughly than merely describing them as a "liberal watchdog group" William Jockusch (talk) 14:30, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Disagree. One could just as easily say its a counter to the repeated attacks against media matters from fox news personalities, which have undeniably occurred for years now. I think it should remain as is, to assure that such a fight doesn't manifest on this page. At least until Media Matters actually does something in line with these statements; It would be far too easy to clutter pages up with endless back and forth of similar messages across the political spectrum. 74.132.249.206 (talk) 01:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Request for Comment

Should this article's summary of the more detailed Fox News Channel controversies article include reference to the dispute about Fox News viewers' levels of information? JamesMLane t c 03:36, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

A while back, some of the material in this article was spun off into a more detailed daughter article, Fox News Channel controversies. The wisdom of that decision is not currently being commented on. Instead, at issue in this RfC is how to summarize the more detailed article here in the main article. The specific question is the addition of two sentences to the current summary.

The disputed addition reads: "Multiple studies have found that Fox News viewers are less well informed, but this conclusion has been disputed. See Fox News Channel controversies#Tests of knowledge of Fox viewers."

Below are: the argument in support of including this information, the argument in opposition to including it, and the section for comments by other editors.

Argument in support

The first paragraph of Wikipedia:Summary style states in part:

When there is enough text in a given subtopic to merit its own article, that text may be summarized within the present article. A link should then be provided to a more detailed article about the subtopic.

Currently, the summary of the more detailed article is not adequate, because it omits one entire passage (about 700 words long) that is found in the more detailed article. The information presented there includes academic studies by the University of Maryland, Stanford University, and Fairleigh Dickinson University; a poll by the Pew Research Center; and commentary from various other notable sources, including Roger Ailes, the head of Fox News. The reader of the main article should be informed about the existence of this body of work and given a wikilink to where the more detailed information is available.

The proposed addition to the summary is neutral, in that it does not attempt to adjudicate between the competing points of view. It merely reports them.

Opposition on this talk page seemed to focus on the most recent of the academic studies, the one from Fairleigh Dickinson University. Some editors found fault with FDU's methodology. If any prominent spokespersons (as opposed to Wikipedia editors) have advanced such criticisms, then the criticisms can be considered for reporting, with proper attribution, in the more detailed article where the FDU study is reported. Some Wikipedians' disagreement with the study is no basis for suppressing it, however, and is still less a basis for omitting mention of the entire topic area. I personally disagree with Ailes's opinion, in which he characterized the University of Maryland study as a "push poll", a charge that can readily be seen as false by anyone who reads our article about push polls. Nevertheless, our more detailed article properly reports his mendacious statement, and the language at issue in this RfC acknowledges his opinion by stating that there is a dispute.

No one opposing the inclusion of this language has suggested any alternative language that would fairly and succinctly summarize the information in the more detailed article, per Wikipedia:Summary style. JamesMLane t c 00:57, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Argument in opposition

The reasoning that "When there is enough text in a given subtopic to merit its own article, that text may be summarized within the present article. A link should then be provided to a more detailed article about the subtopic" applies here is misguided. The removed material did not merit "its own article". It got a section of a larger article. JamesMLane has been the only editor supporting this interpretation of WP:SS, while numerous experienced editors have opposed it. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:27, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Comments

Please indicate whether you support or oppose inclusion of the disputed sentences, along with any other comments.

• oppose when the reader reads the test results they speak for themselves. I see no need to pull a fox news and tell the reader he is stupid based on undisclosed information. It is much better to have a text logically arrive at a conclusion. We wouldn't want wikipedia readers to become less well informed. Just mention the topic enjoyed scientific curiosity (i.e.) inform the reader such research exists. How it was conducted and by who is at least as important as the conclusion IMHO. Hope that helps and good luck. 84.106.26.81 (talk) 08:22, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Your comment gives me the impression that you think the proposed text is bad, because it summarizes the opposing facts and opinions, but that you'd support an addition to the summary that omitted that aspect. It suggests something along the lines of: "The topic of the comparative information levels of Fox News viewers has been the subject of academic research. See Fox News Channel controversies#Tests of knowledge of Fox viewers." Is that what you're getting at? I ask this because you say we should "mention the topic enjoyed scientific curiosity" but right now the article doesn't mention that. JamesMLane t c 10:17, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

yes, to me it seems to hard to summarize results without risking original research. 84.106.26.81 (talk) 03:36, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Badly framed suggestion to say the least. It sets up a "Some reports show that Gnarphists are murderers, but this has been disputed" type case. The presentation of the charge with a comment "has been disputed" is grossly insufficient in any article on Wikipedia whatsoever. This does not mean editorial opinions about FNC, clearly labelled as opinions, are improper - but placing a pseudo-fact into an article with a "it has been disputed" is disingenuous - whether about FNC or any other article (I hold the same position about any articles and opinions - left-wing, right-wing, whatsover - opinions must be clearly labelled as such). Collect (talk) 13:13, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Comments from involved editors

Oppose: As stated above. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:28, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Oppose (for now): Per Nightshift36 & Collect. Per Nightshift36: It appears that the rationale behind WP:SS references (and perhaps encourages?) the collation of existing content into the development of another "Article", not a sub-section of an already existing one. However, my grasp of this issue is mushy at best and I'll be interested to read the comments of other editors on the subject. Per Collect: I concur that this may be a case of innuendo trafficking. JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:29, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Oppose: Couldn't agree more with Niteshift and Jake. SeanNovack (talk) 13:55, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Support: I have not been susbstantially involved in this particular dispute, but I have in general been sporadically involved in discussion on this and it's controvery page. So I error on the side of disclosure. It seems to me that people who want to keep it out are letting the incredulity of the results, or how the results makes people feel, affect their judgements. These are not legitimate criteria for inclusion or exclusion in an encyclopedia article, and they have no basis in Wikipedia policy. The criteria are WP:V and WP:N, and this certainly meets both. Kevin Baas^talk 16:13, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry Kevin, but N and V aren't the only things involved here. WP:UNDUE also applies. This information isn't being surpressed or censired. It exists, properly, in the article about FNC controversies. Forcing it into a second article is beginning to look like an agenda. This article is supposed to be about FNC, not their so much their viewers. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Ya, i realize i left out WP:UNDUE after i saw it mentioned below. The criteria are WP:V and WP:N and WP:UNDUE, and WP:UNDUE is certainly a debate point. Personally I would have liked it if they had asked more questions on the survey. Ah well. Viewership is an important aspect of any media outlet. This article is about the aspects of Fox News, a media outlet. Kevin Baas^talk 16:14, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

As noted elsewhere, there is an entire article devoted to the topic of "controversies" related to FNC and the way to get to that article is clearly displayed in this one. Every article should not contain everything related to them. To use your reasoning, Sony Records is a media outlet. If a Sony label artist states in an interview with a reliable source that he likes chocolate cake, then we should put it in the Sony Records article. Notable guy, telling a reliable source some crap that they printed. It's verifiable. But is it relevant to Sony Records? No. Just being verifiable and (arguably) notable (because a RS printed it) doesn't make it relevant. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

That is not using my reasoning. That is a rather egregious straw man and a fallacy of the excluded middle, and a clear misapplication of WP:SS, among other policies, such as WP:N, which i just mentioned in the very same paragraph you're replying too! Kevin Baas^talk 16:07, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

It is your reasoning if you really look at it. You keep talking about WP:N. Who says this is so notable that it needs to be here? That is what were are debating, but you keep stating it like it is an undisputed fact. Thus, you must consider something to be notable just because it was covered by an RS. And no, your needless wikilinking of commonly used terms doesn't make your reasons stronger. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:56, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Support along the line of Ucanlookitup's reasoning below--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:43, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose This is a singular and unscientific poll that has been given unjustified weight. Wikipedia should not offend readers who have conservative views. If Wikipedia has liberal readers and an equal number of conservative readers, why offend half of the readers? It makes no sense at all. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 02:16, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Oppose And very strongy oppose the use of limited frame sampling polls such as FDU being extrapolated out to the larger population as seems to be the desire here. Arzel (talk) 16:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Responses from uninvolved editors

• Support it's not much to ask and JamesMLane's misunderstanding of a guideline is not a reason to oppose. Also JamesMLane, while you're correct that the methodology or the disagreements about the truthfulness of the studies/polls are irrelevant, you confused and bored your reader with discussing them.

Johnathlon (talk) 10:21, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support. I am previously uninvolved, and came here via the RfC. Based upon what it says in this section of the talk, it seems to me that the addition is justified, and it is a disservice to our readers to leave it out. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:42, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support. It's really not news to either supporters or opponents of Fox News that there is a controversy concerning their objectivity. An article about Fox News is incomplete without a reasonable summary. Ucanlookitup (talk) 04:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Just a note, the proposal doesn't state anything at all about objectivity, it specifically states "Multiple studies have found that Fox News viewers are less well informed, but this conclusion has been disputed." This is not a "reasonable summary", this is an accusation of ignorance based on what media is watched, that directly affects the perception of the quality of that media. For this reason, it appears to me that this is strictly a POV addition, and does not belong. SeanNovack (talk) 20:50, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

• The article would be incomplete without it? There is an entire article devoted to nothing but "controversies" and a full section of that article devoted to this stuff. There is a link to that article clearly displayed on this page. If a reader is too lazy to go view it, that's not my problem. We shouldn't litter every article with every detail about a topic just to compensate for laziness. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:49, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose - Per the above. Rationale for adddition is weak and the 'is disputed' disclaimer raises serious issues. Toa Nidhiki05 20:40, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose - A simple link the the controversies page is sufficient. A summary of significant controversies can be listed there if they have their own wiki-article. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 00:51, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Counter proposal. Different sentence: "Some studies, surveys and polls suggest Fox News viewers tend to be less informed than viewers of other news sources. More information on these studies and their numerous criticisms can be found here." I agree with SeanNovack that the sentence as summarized is a bit POV. Sean, what do you think about this? What about you Niteshift? Johnathlon (talk) 10:14, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I think Collect has his finger on the crux of the issue. I know this is a very long thread spread over several discussions (mainly because James keps bringing it up), but the practical upshot of all of this is that there is a poll that was done in New Jersey with a small number of people who watched FOXNews asked about events in the Middle East. The questions were vague and required interpretation to answer, and the "correct" answer that the pollsters were looking for differed in opinion from the answers received. Since the answers differed, they were counted as "wrong", and the conclusion of this "study" was that these people were therefore "uninformed". That in of itself is not a valid logical conclusion and should not be allowed. What the "study" then does is states that "viewers" of FOXNews are "more uninformed" than "viewers" of others media. This is an obvious logical fallacy, as even a perfectly valid poll of citizens of New Jersey could not be extrapolated onto the nation as a whole. Therefore, the entire push to get this included appears to be strictly a POV push to make people that disagree with the OP look more ignorant and "uninformed".

• Nope Still implies that scientific studies show FNC viewers to be "wrong" on issues where it is rather clear that the material is capable of POV interpretation, that the numbers are not statistically valid, and that others dispute the entire premise of the studies, not just the results. Thus placement in this article was and remains beyond the pale. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:05, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

As far as statistics/surveys are concerned there is almost always someone disputing something (and WP editors probably dispute any result they don't like to begin with). What matters here is how reputable the study and its authors are and those disputing it (and for what grounds). If for instance Roger Ailes objects against a study that carries very little to no weight, if however some Princeton researcher disputes it, that's another matter, even more so if his objections are published in a reputable academic journal. Having said that, the FDU study (contrary to the Maryland study) is in many aspects at the lower end of the scale as far as still acceptable reliability/reputability is concerned, hence it is within editorial discretion to drop it from the article - provided there's an editorial consent for it. I don't quite see that right now however.--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:36, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• Note. This discussion has been linked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Conservatism#RfC that members may be interested in. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:00, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this doesn't transgress WP:Canvass. JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:25, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Nonsense. I belong to two Wikiprojects that have an interest here, and I posted a message that there was an RfC on each of them (Politics and Conservatism). The message left simply directed the members to the discussion as a possible area of interest, no more. The only possible way this could violate WP:CANVASS would be votestacking, and that is an extremely marginable accusation given the fact that the article itself specifies that FOXNews is perceived as a "conservative" news outlet, this would obviously be of interest to some of that Wikiproject, along with anybody in the "Politics" Wikiproject. Any member of a "Liberalism" wikiproject is welcome to bring it to the attention of those editors as well, in order to broaden the scope of the discussion. SeanNovack (talk) 17:39, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

I am satisfied that Sean's note there was sufficiently neutrally worded that it does not violate Canvass, and I guess that there is a plausible rationale that this discussion would be of interest to editors there. What I believe was lacking with regard to the needed transparency was disclosure here, and I attempted to solve that with my posting. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:25, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose Argument against makes more sense per WP:SS. NYyankees51 (talk) 17:13, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose: having this singular factoid here gives it undue weight. To properly include it here we would have to provide complete context, which defeats the purpose of WP:SS. – Lionel ^(talk) 23:41, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Hear, here. .!. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 16:53, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support: This seems to be clearly notable (in the sense that the research has been discussed in RS), so mentioning it in this article seems in order. I'm not sure, if the "has been disputed" part needs to specially be mentioned here, since reading the section of the controversy article it turns out that there is no research disputing it, just what amounts to more or less the usual suspects complaining about the results. And these complaints aren't nearly as widely covered as the research itself. --Dailycare (talk) 20:38, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. I am no fan of Fox, but even I find this one-sided summary to be an obvious WP:NPOV violation. --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 12:08, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Comments regarding the validity of studies/polls

Note: Comments (or comment threads containing comments that are) disputing the validity of the relevant studies and/or polls contained on the controversies page (Fox news channel controversies#Tests of knowledge) are included below. These comments are kept here as opposed to removing or archiving because this is an ongoing discussion and to remove the controversy that might follow deletion. For clarification, original "Support" or "Oppose" comments that did not dispute the validity of studies/polls continue to appear above and (as members of comment threads that dispute the validity of the studies/polls) also appear below. See Wikipedia is NOT a forum. Johnathlon (talk) 01:52, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support it's not much to ask and JamesMLane's misunderstanding of a guideline is not a reason to oppose. Also JamesMLane, while you're correct that the methodology or the disagreements about the truthfulness of the studies/polls are irrelevant, you confused and bored your reader with discussing them.

Johnathlon (talk) 10:21, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

The methdology of the polls is not irrelevant. The poll which started this situation was a one state poll being extrapolated out to give an impression that it applies to the entire viewing audience of FNC. Such polling methodology says almost nothing about FNC in general and provides the neccessary evidence that using such information is vastly undue weight. Arzel (talk) 16:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately Arzel, as a matter of policy wikipedia explicitly is not about what's true or what's accurate, but what's wp:verifiable. I have personally witnessed many reliable sources (as have others on this talk page) provide coverage to this issue. And no, a single sentence stating that a controversy exists with a link to more information is not undue weight. Further, if we were debating the truth of the poll results you would need to be more specific about the poll you are referring to as there are multiple in the relevant section on the controversy page. Johnathlon (talk) 19:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I never mentioned anything about truth or the lact thereof. I specifically stated undue weight, which is a WP policy, and I am specifically referring to the FDU poll which is the reason for this RfC in the first place. James is trying and end-around the objections to this poll by making a general RfC with the hope of including this poll as a result. The FDU poll, btw, was limited to one state. As such it is grossly undue weight to use this poll to extrapolate out the knowledge of all FNC viewers. Arzel (talk) 16:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Which part of "Multiple studies have found that Fox News viewers are less well informed, but this conclusion has been disputed. See Fox News Channel controversies#Tests of knowledge of Fox viewers." is extrapolating? I think you are forgetting that the issue is that sentence, not any studies. This is not a forum to debate the methodologies of polls or studies. Johnathlon (talk) 09:53, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

"Multiple" is particularly troubling. James is using the FDU study to strenghten the "Multiple" statement and extrapolate it out to the larger population. I am not debating the methdology of the poll, but I will not stands by when other editors try to make it more than it is. If I wanted to debated the actual polls or studies I would talk about how the U of Maryland study is crap because it uses opinion and contrived facts as the true statement. What I find most interesting about the U of M study is that some of the "truths" have now been shown to be false, such as the effect of the Health Care legislation reducing the national debt. The U of M study used the CBO scoring, which was forced to show a deficeit reduction, which was an accounting ruse (CLASS and Medicare Doc Fix) to begin with and has now with the removal of CLASS been shown to be completely false. Anyone that thinks Obamacare will reduce the deficeit is completely off their rocker. Thus FNC viewers were not only more informed, they were FAR more informed than the esteemed authors of the Maryland Study who did little more than regurgitate the Obama administrations POV. But since it was covered by sycophantic media it satisfies V and RS. Besides I am not debating the methodology anyway. Arzel (talk) 16:37, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support. I am previously uninvolved, and came here via the RfC. Based upon what it says in this section of the talk, it seems to me that the addition is justified, and it is a disservice to our readers to leave it out. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:42, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I would say it is far more of a disservice to give undue weight to agenda driven small frame polls being used to describe the larger population outside of the sample frame. Arzel (talk) 16:40, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

I looked back and saw your comment to me here. Not surprisingly, different editors can disagree about that point. But, since I infer that you are an involved editor, it's generally not very constructive for involved editors to argue back at uninvolved ones. After all, the whole point of an RfC is to get new input, not to keep repeating views that have already been said. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, one would hope that that input has done some research and state the rational behind their reasoning. Why is it justified? You don't say. Arzel (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, obviously you didn't take the hint. It is justified because it passes WP:V and WP:RS, and the concerns about WP:UNDUE can readily be addressed by a brief statement about the poll methodology. I think that your position fails WP:NPOV, and I know that you will disagree with me about that. --Tryptofish (talk) 15:57, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support. It's really not news to either supporters or opponents of Fox News that there is a controversy concerning their objectivity. An article about Fox News is incomplete without a reasonable summary. Ucanlookitup (talk) 04:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Just a note, the proposal doesn't state anything at all about objectivity, it specifically states "Multiple studies have found that Fox News viewers are less well informed, but this conclusion has been disputed." This is not a "reasonable summary", this is an accusation of ignorance based on what media is watched, that directly affects the perception of the quality of that media. For this reason, it appears to me that this is strictly a POV addition, and does not belong. SeanNovack (talk) 20:50, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

• This RfC has nothing to do with the summary regarding their objectivity, it has to do with summarization of a specific one-state poll being used to describe all viewers of FNC. Arzel (talk) 16:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

• The article would be incomplete without it? There is an entire article devoted to nothing but "controversies" and a full section of that article devoted to this stuff. There is a link to that article clearly displayed on this page. If a reader is too lazy to go view it, that's not my problem. We shouldn't litter every article with every detail about a topic just to compensate for laziness. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:49, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Rasmussen

There is a POV calling Rasmussen conservative since Wikipedia own entry does not list it that way it should be removed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rasmussen_ReportsBasil rock (talk) 15:36, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

• What the Wikipedia article says has no bearing. The characterization is sourced. Granted, I'd prefer to see more than just a Time reporter saying it, but to arbitrarily remove it isn't right. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:34, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I posted the point and no one came to defend it. Since a reporter is just stating his oppinion that does not make it a fact.Basil rock (talk) 09:08, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

• Nobody is saying that just because a reported said it, the item becomes fact. You might find it enlightening to read the essay WP:TRUTH. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 15 March 2012

glen beck is no longer aired on fox it was replace with the 5

Tjtimster88 (talk) 00:23, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Celestra (talk) 14:29, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Neutrality tags in misrepresentation of facts section?

Can we talk about why that is there? What can be fixed about that section such that the tag can be removed? The Sound and the Fury (talk) 14:26, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Putting "alleged" is fine, I suppose. These things weren't decided by a court. I thought in the context it was clear, but anyway. The tags?The Sound and the Fury (talk) 17:13, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

• I don't have a problem with removing the tag. It was placed there because an editor tried to edit-war in a study that was opposed by numerous editors. When that failed, he tried to discuss and found little support. Then he started a RFC that failed to get the consensus he needed. I, however, would not be the best person to remove it since my touching ti would surely force some sand under his bathing suit. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:21, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Let me do the honors. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 17:27, 26 March 2012 (UTC)